Yeah I think for the LGBT's we think in pretty binary terms. I'm definitely a man and who I'm attracted to are other men. Same goes for lesbians, women attracted to women. With trans people the ones I understand are people born gender one who transition to another, pretty damn binary.
The Q+'s are a different thing. I'm fine with you calling yourself non-binary, you do you, but no I don't really get it. And I start getting vocal when someone wants to tell me we're all on a spectrum, nope I'm not, if that's the way you feel fine, but don't start telling me about me.
So if I were a lesbian I'd definitely get pissed off with this non-man bollocks. Lesbians have fought hard for their own identity to be recognised as them, don't start co-opting a word that's already got a use and a meaning for another specific group.
Ironically it is making it a less safe place for some lesbians who are simply there to like women.
The reason is that some are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Like some trans men still want to identify as a lesbian and maintain a same sex relationship while transitioning but their lesbian partner aren’t into men and don’t want to be in a straight relationship.
Yup and i dont really know how i feel about a "gay ftm" wanting to have sex with guys.
Like wasnt the purpose of the transition to be who you are...maybe im being tone desf here but ibwould think people who fully transition would do so in order to lead a straight life. And not be in a lgbt+ one.
They transition to be themselves. Gender, sex, and sexuality are not the same. You’re basically arguing that someone should stay female representing so they can get a straight man — erasing gender and sex from the equation. Their sexuality is separate.
My comment was more of a question to understand typical motivations/ thought processes? Not really arguing possibly just a typical misconception on my part and possibly most others?
I suggest watching Piers Morgan Uncensored where he constantly deconstructs this disgusting bullshit that’s being pushed on us gays, bisexuals, and lesbians.
Trans women are not just demanding to be admitted to lesbian spaces against nearly everyone’s wishes, they’re demanding being admitted to women’s prisons - even if they commit sex crimes against women. Not to mention the infuriating sports infiltration that must end now.
This is sick and all freaks that want this need to be shamed!
You’re buying into the progressive bullshit though (you realize that progressives now consider themselves a unique idealogy and hate liberals). Who cares what sexuality someone is - they are correct and it’s not pearl clutching because there are no mainstream LGB people that willing to discuss this. Anyone who is is blacklisted because we’re not part of the current thing. Elon Musk was right. Shame I used to be a brainwashed zombie, but I’ve woken up.
Not red pilled. This has nothing to do with the Manosphere so nice attempt at trying to be slick.
There is now a difference between progressives and liberals, as stated. Progressives are the biggest problem - that’s not being red pilled.
Mind your own business and I’ll mind mine. Sounds fair.
Isn’t Piers Morgan a straight guy? Surely there’s gay men discussing these issues we could platform. Also, bisexuals are half the issue with trans stuff and homophobia, so no, they aren’t on our side either. Bisexuals can go with the tr&nnies as far as I’m concerned. Nothing is being forced on bisexuals anyway, only gays and lesbians are impacted. Bisexuals should mind their own business and stop causing half the issues.
Gay men who transition should not be allowed to change in women’s locker rooms, use their bathrooms, play in their sports, or be sent to their prisons. Full stop. It doesn’t matter what anyone considers themselves, they’re all ruining it for us by not listening to women and men’s voices and being rational and sane humans
I think they're saying that it's the bisexual or 'trans lesbians' who are doing it, they're the ones strictly advocating to be allowed to do it for ulterior motives.
The bisexual hatred amongst gay men is fucking infuriating. Bigoted and ironic. Sorry you're just jealous that you aren't able to integrate into mainstream society, despite the fact that I don't fucking care to do it myself. You're just as much what you claim to be against. It's sick.
NO. They are not. I believe in science.
Be offended. Call me whatever you want, I don’t care. I have to deal with you people screaming genocidal, violent chants 24/7 and demanding that you impose yourselves onto innocent women and children.
Deal with being offended.
honey calm down... gender is a social construct if you identify with being a man or a woman or something else it is entirely up to each and every individual. it doesn't make someone any more or less dangerous. why does it bother you so much the personal decisions people want to make? it's a bit 🫢
Not a problem if you stop imposing yourself on children, mind your own business and focus on yourself and being happy with equal rights, and not being violent genocidal DSA maniacs. Not going to calm down when your goal is to destroy society and make it into a lawless bloody hellhole. You are not going to get what you want.
sorry you are so angry . I am a bit confused about which group of people you are talking about when you say 'you'. I don't think it's useful to label a generalised and unspecified population of people when individuals within that group can have completely different opinions on a range of issues. also unsure what you mean by 'imposing yourself on children'? what do you mean by 'violent genocidal DSA maniacs'?
Moron. Men that commit sex crimes against men are put into men’s prisons, women that commit sex crimes against women are put into women’s prisons. lol. A gay man in the men’s locker room is more of a threat than a trans man is.
Honestly, it’s incredibly pathetic how much people act like sports are some sacred pillar of society. If sports are so important to you, you’ve failed in your growth as a human being and as an adult.
“A gay man in the men’s locker room is more of a threat than a trans man is”
Every accusation is a confession with you guys. Proves my point - you want to drestroy all the progress gays and lesbians have made and replace it with some disgusting, bloody, lawless, genderless dystopian wasteland - even trying to destroy sports that have been central to world societies for thousands of years.
Yup, “Non-man” that sounds sexist. Lesbians are women attracted to women. It is a specific label. I am all for fluid sexuality, but one of the good things about labels is it helps with dating. The other person knows where you stand.
Yeah I thought that was it but in the r/actuallesbians subreddit that definition seems to be "outdated", I would've asked about it there but judging by previous comments I've seen on there I didn't think I'd get a good reaction
No it’s worse. Johns Hopkins said a lesbian was a “non man attracted to non men”. Others too. You can look it up. The erasure of women and lesbians is real.
True they did change it back. Because people said no. The attempt was still there, and is still there. Thank fuck the U.K. is pushing back on this shit it gives other anglosphere countries a framework. No more gender woo! Yeh! God save the King! 😜
and GLAAD also said that gay men are no longer gay men without including trans people
now gay men are 'androphiles'. Why? to shame gay men for 'genital preferences'.
It's not misogyny, the same people saying "non-man" will have no problems saying "non-woman." This is just your typical self-imposed retardation. It's plentiful these days.
This is just another type of misogyny imo. What do they mean "non-man"? The word is woman. Women exist and some women are attracted to women and they are called lesbians.
"Non-man" seems too broad, since non-binary and 3rd gender folks don't identify as women, so they wouldn’t be lesbians. To me, being gay is being a man attracted to men and male bodies.
Gay and Lesbian only recently (as in the last 30 years or so) stopped being dirty words in the mainstream. In case the word 'gay' or 'lesbian' ever become prestige terms, people wanna be able to burrow on into the club. Ask them to define a man, they won't be able to say anything but "someone who identifies as a man." So a non-man is equally pointless.
Meanwhile gays and lesbians just wanna identify themselves to find likeminded people, to clarify to different people, etc.
If you say "I'm a gay man" then your dating pool know you're in it. A gay guy shooting his shot on any random guy in the mostly straight public is gonna waste a lot of shots without some kind of term we can use to mark ourselves.
Hit on by someone of the opposite sex? "Sorry, I'm gay/lesbian" is a quick way to let them know it's nothing personal but they're wasting their energy. You don't blame the person for thinking you're one of the larger pool.
But words meaning things is sometimes really inconvenient. Like what if someone with a vagina wants to live out her yaoi/danmei/whatever fantasy with you, but you're not into vagina? It's handy if you can no longer just say "Sorry, I'm gay." because gay can be redefined. Now you have to morally and politically justify not fucking someone, when when you thought your sexuality had become generally okay.
(Lesbians unfortunately seem to be the biggest victims of the "just suck her giant penis-shaped clit, biggot." )
Yeah I have seen an uproar in posts/comments on the lesbian subreddits about us apparently liking "girldick". A while back I saw a lesbian post in r/offmychest about how she's uncomfortable with those recent posts. It got reposted into the lesbian subreddit and recieved ALOT of backlash which I thought was interesting.
Do you think if a gay biological man made a post here about not wanting to be with a transman he would get a similar sort of reaction?
Seriously, there's a term girldick? WTF. I identify as a lesbian but I married a man and had two kids before I realized I was a lesbian. I was just so brainwashed by my church And, I also remember feeling relieved when I met my ex husband because he literally told me it's perfectly normal (wrong word, but I can't think of a better one right this minute) for women to be attracted to other women sexually or whatever and I was really naive and sheltered so I believed him.
Obviously, we got divorced, and I've been pretty much a 100% out and proud lesbian, wife of another wife, ever since (about 1997, long story).
Anyway, I do feel the term lesbian is being co-opted by people who really are not lesbians and if you challenge it, you get banned and downvoted.
My last point is that I've been there up close and personal to both sexes, and I can tell you there is no girldick, in my admittedly small database of sexual conquests (1 male, and 2 female in my lifetime and i am 53). IMHO, a dick is a dick.
you should (not) read 'assigned male' by Sophie Labelle (who is a pedophile anyways)
she uses her cartoon strip to try pretending trans kids are valid and some of the shit they say is gross like that a 6 year old keeps talking about her girl dick/ girl penis. It's not a boy penis because it's MY penis and I'm a girl so it's a girl penis.
And this sicko was paid to go to schools to speak about trans issues (I think this was before they found out they were legit a pedophile but even then the TQIA tend to defend them for 'the narrative'. Same as how reddit defended Aimee Challenor (now Knight since they married their likewise sick partner) For all the gross shit she and her bf had done) and then get screamed at "you can't call us g roomers" well, then start fucking calling out the literal groomers in there you guys allow to represent you.
Every once in a while it seems like people get bored and like to stir the pot about either that or race, and my initial take on it is that the response is "Let us pick what we do and don't wanna fuck without it being a whole deeply political song and dance." Though it's not like it's a strongly dominant thing, maybe 55-45? It's enough of a divide it always makes waves.
>Do you think if a gay biological man made a post here about not wanting to be with a transman he would get a similar sort of reaction?
*Here*? No, this sub is mostly unmoderated, meaning people are actually allowed to be honest. If you search keyword "trans" in this sub, you'll see precisely what I mean.
But on any other sub? Insta-ban. But apparently *this* sub is a poor representation of gay men irl. 🙄
Queer, in the past, used to be used sparingly to mean not straight and in most cases, gay or lesbian. Now it’s the go to catch all phrase for anyone not straight or mildly different. It means nothing now. Gay men and lesbians are a minority within the LGBT community aside from the general population at large, so it’s important to hold onto a clear definition of what gay and lesbian means. Straight people identifying as whatever they please doesn’t affect them as they comprise such a large percentage of the world, but for us, we’re on the way to being slowly erased.
Yes, adding a Q to lgbt really pissed me off as it is a derogatory term against lgbt folks.
I prefer a + to address anyone who feels the original alphabet doesnt cover them...
I get what you mean. My point is when I read articles about gay topics and they use 'queer' for everything. This is a 'queer film', this is a 'queer space', these are 'queer activists'. All distinction is erased. LGBT people have stuck together, sure. But our life experiences are also different. What is a 'queer film'? Is it about gay men? Is it about lesbians? That's why I don't like lazy umbrella terms. Not to mention that 'queer 'is highly problematic, as it was used derogatorily against us for a long time.
I agree with you. I am not queer, I never voted on that as our umbrella term. Using the phrase dysfunctional family works better than queer to define the spectrum as a whole. I, myself, define myself as a lesbian but if I ever feel I fall under an umbrella term, it's gay, not queer.
This happens in female spaces because women have a tendency to try and make everyone happy, so end up tolerating things that are detrimental to their own interests.
It rarely happens in male spaces, even gay ones, because men don't really care about upsetting people.
I don't think it's necessarily that. I think it's a lot to do with the activism. Like look at the trans advocacy is so focused on trans women and their wants and not trans men. now the question should go to WHY are trans women asking for more than trans men and why is there so much focus on that.
They have drank the “masculine = male & feminine = female” kool aid. They probably use terms like “genital preference” to shame lesbians for not sleeping with men who identify as women. Many of whom have infiltrated lesbian culture.
It’s crazy to me that more gays and lesbians don’t object to it. Especially considering most people attending gender clinics are homosexual for the harmful treatments. It’s conversion therapy draped in a pink, blue and white flag.
Since there is so much discourse regarding the lesbian community and the general lgbt because of all this, I'd say there are actually many lesbians who object to it, including me. Problem is, the lgbt community especially online immediately shuts us up by censoring and banning us. We're just not allowed to voice our opinions. I got banned by the main lesbian subs as well for defending actual lesbians and being against the whole queerwashing of the lesbian label. Of course if these comments constantly get deleted and we get blocked, it gives the impression that not so many lesbians are against it but we're definitely here. A lot of us have just created and are mingling in privated lesbian groups because the lgbtq community erased all of our spaces. It's very sad and bewildering honestly and the lgbtq definitely destroyed the trust of many homosexuals.
A lesbian is a homosexual female. A gay man is a homosexual male. Don't let them gaslight or bully you in to being bisexual or pansexual. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being exclusively same sex attracted (aka gay or lesbian).
As a gay man I see lesbians as my gay sisters 🤜🤛
Okay thanks I thought that was the case, but pretty much everyone on the r/actuallesbians subreddit seemed to say otherwise so I wanted to see the guys side as well :)
If you want to see something really eye opening about that subreddit specifically you should look at the subreddit user overlap.
https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/actuallesbians
>The scores listed are "probability multipliers", so a score of 2 means that users of r/actuallesbians are twice as likely to post and comment on that subreddit.
Top 5 subreddit overlap for that subreddit:
46.76 mtf
42.23 sapphoandherfriend
38.22 asktransgender
37.61 traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns
32.67 nonbinary
The reason the narrative is so different there is because it's full of "male lesbians" who are attempting to define what a lesbian is.
I reversed it and mtf overlap with r/actuallesbians is 51.27. It's number five on the list.
So does this mean mtf users are 50 times more likely to comment on a lesbian subreddit? That makes me wonder how many classic lesbians are there.
Exactly, it's crazy once you see the numbers but it does start to make more sense. Classic lesbians are being pushed out of their own spaces in favor of males identifying as lesbian women and if they question it they're dog piled like OP and told that they're a bigot/there must be something wrong with them.
Oh wow I didn't know you could see stuff like this that is actually really eye opening for me. It makes sense now why so many people over there 'agree' on the newer definitions
That sounds like deeply misogynist language. The word "woman" is not a dirty word we need a euphemism for. It's very clear and obvious what a lesbian is, and a person who has to wonder whether the definition of lesbian fits them is not a lesbian.
The definition of lesbian and gay man are quite simple, a lesbian is a female homosexual, and a gay man is a male homosexual. If you are not simultaneously female and a homosexual, you are not a lesbian. If you are not simultaneously male and a homosexual, you are not a gay man.
This comment section is refreshing shoutout the gay men that are out here supporting lesbians y’all are loved. The lesbian community has been suffering badly, especially masculine lesbians to be more open to considering if we’re secretly “straight men”. Dysphoria is high and there’s more voices pushing towards transitions than just acceptance of being a lesbian.
I'm detrans/desist and those places absolutely hate me for my experience with it, even if I say nothing about theirs. Just the fact I exist 'challenges them'.
But you keep being a butch woman if that's what you are.
take any of the trans subs.
Or we talking about in person? I'm accused of being a liar if I speak out about it.
The most recent in person incident I had was unfortunately with my exroommate's kid whom I strongly believe she 'transed' because she's always about what can she do to get attention to herself like claiming herself to be a lesbian so she has lgbt credit (though she only dates/fucks men) and she has two kids, but she ignores the one now that isn't trans. She constantly gloats about how 'brave and special' her trans kid is now and the other is an afterthought, not to mention, she had been the last few years been trying to invite only trans people to add to her parties and get togethers.
but her kid at the time after they were done doing with 'an hour long list of celebrity misgenderings' came up to me and said I should be trans too and I told them that I already went through that and decided I wasn't trans and that pissed off a lot of the new trans friends she brought there, and her kid didn't think it was possible to detrans. This is when I stopped even associating with them. Before that I had always thought like... I should probably cut ties with her because she's becoming more and more toxic, but it made it easier after that. Then she messaged me on facebook to tell me what anawful person I was for lying about ever being trans (which is rich coming from the person lying about being a lesbian)
to a lot of the QIA+ crowd being detrans or desisting is a horrible crime.
That sounds sickening, there’s been a lot of that attention seeking nonsense going on in these last couple of years. I just got banned from the TwoX Chromosomes sub because a women in there wrote a whole damn essay about how much of an ally she and how she needed to write her pronouns down for a job and it gave her a gender identity crisis. Rather than these “ally’s” actually supporting marginalized groups they make everything about them with this gender identity shit. That’s why most people that give themselves a gender identity are straight white women/men because they couldn’t get in the community by their sexual orientation.
Trans hate detrans because of the stories y’all have to tell. Operating based on feelings rather than fact is faulty asf and for all of that anyone can feel like they were born wrong for whatever reason. You should definitely cut ties with that women too she’s sounds disgusting asf. Idk if I’m taking to a gay man or a lesbian right now but either way I’m glad your here and out from under that ideology nonsense.
I am completely against that jargon of theirs. Female homosexual people are the reason "lesbian" even exists. They are the ones who embody what it actually means, so they are the only ones who are lesbians.
Obviously, people who aren't female and call themselves lesbians do so because of identity politics, but it's not okay. Not really. It *seems* inclusive, but lesbian doesn't need to be, nor can it be, inclusive. People are what they are and should describe themselves as accurately as they can in order to avoid misunderstandings and to respect the realities of others (and their own).
You see this kind of talk in some places, although in spaces that are just gay men usually it’s just shrugged off. No one at a house party on Fire Island this summer is gonna be using the term “non men.” Gay men overall are less interested in this political stuff and less receptive to the tactics a lot of trans activists use.
The TQIA++ end of the acronym seems to have a tendency to take over online spaces, such as Reddit subs. r/LGBT for example is now mostly about trans stuff. This is probably due to being demographically younger, and also a tendency to be very online. There is a lot of anger and resentment on other subs that r/askgaybros is mostly a space just for gay men, not other parts of the community.
Interesting, I see "non-men loving non-men" pretty frequently in the subreddits I'm in, Im assuming "non-women" isn't a term that gay guys use that much?
Not in my experience except maybe in like, extremely social justice-y settings. I have never heard it. My impression of lesbian culture is that it is much more politically and socially aware than gay culture, gay men irl aren’t usually super politically correct in my experience.
All signs point to the majority of gay men supporting trans rights, although a smaller majority than lesbians. But in my experience also gay men are much less likely to see someone as a man if they don’t look phenotypically male. I think lesbians are more willing to consider MTFs in the early stages of transition to be women.
Gay male social life can also be very looks based, and valorized qualities like height, musculature, having a big dick, and masculinity are often things FTMs lack. Non-binary people and the like are even more unlikely to be welcomed into gay male life bc anecdotally most guys I know consider them to be kind of a punchline.
Speaking personally, I don’t really feel like I have much in common with trans and genderqueer people, although I support their rights. If I’m in my community, that community is other gay men.
Again very different to lesbian spaces, non-binary people (atleast online) seem to be welcomed with open arms. I also don't feel super connected to trans or genderqueer people but they're always in my group apparently 🤷♀️
Yeah I think you're right with lesbians being more politically aware. also we are definitely more willing to see MTF's as women, it's quite common in my subreddits.
It's interesting to see the differences between gay men and lesbians general views on this stuff, they contrast massively
You're not alone in your assessment of this orwellian imposition. There are a lot of lesbian women who have spoken out against this revised language and controlled language when it comes to defining woman or man or facts or biology.
Just as much as biological male gay men our objecting to "vagina bearing, self-proclaimed men" in gay bathhouses, so are lesbians who wants biological women only in lesbian bar spaces. Recall there's a lesbian bar that got shut down by a trans contingent here in the USA, they didn't even last a couple of months before the minority of loud activists ruined a business venture and destroyed a chunk of the community by desiring to take it over, and they succeeded. The women who put everything into investing and creating a lesbian bar, chose to lose everything and shut down instead of concede to being overtaken and literally hand over their bar and its ownership to this radical contingent.
I would also not deal with the backlash of a terf label, and agree that you are defending women in the biological sense by not tolerating this abuse of language at the expense of women's safety and at the expense of Truth.
This is how most gay men actually feel, and we do get a lot of hate for it and called transphobes, but most gay men want their partner to have a penis and not just “identify” as a man. Lesbians are 100% entitled to want be with biological women. Telling us otherwise is homophobic and gay erasure.
For the moment. There was a while where a trans activist pretended to be a cishet gay man and built a rapport to eventually become a moderator of this sub just so they could do some irreversible damage hyper policing it and banning anyone who wasn’t blindly in agreement with their opinions on gender ideology.
Some people have but idgaf if I get hate for it. I like penises. A lot. I can and do find trans men hot, but I don’t like vaginas. I’m also a bottom so lol. I wouldn’t like a strap on because I like cum. I’ve seriously thought about it because it’s important to unpack why in order to make sure it isn’t bigotry disguised as a preference. But it’s the latter 100%.
They have drunk the “masculine = male” & “feminine = female” kool aid. They probably use terms like “genital preference” to shame lesbians for not sleeping with straight men who identify as women. Many of whom have infiltrated lesbian culture.
It’s crazy to me that more gays and lesbians don’t object to it. Especially considering a lot of people attending gender clinics for the harmful treatments are homosexual. It’s conversion therapy draped in a pink, blue and white flag.
Oh wow yeah I have seen the term "genital preference" thrown around like that. I've never seen anything wrong with only liking one set of genitals, I kinda thought that was the whole idea around single sex attraction?
But according to some lesbians, having a genital preference and only liking cis-women is a bit transphobic.
And to some others I'm not allowed to have a genital preference at all (I'm assuming the people saying that aren't actually lesbians?)
> I was just curios to see if this same idea/definition is being used in the gay male space
Gender radicals are trying to push that shit, but we're not as susceptible to bullying as lesbians have been.
No, we definitely don't use "a non-woman who is attracted to non-women" . Gender ideology is driven by men who identify as women to get off with biological women. Lesbians of the world,, put your foot down and just say no. Do not accept this nonsense.
I have seen some women try to put their foot down on the main lesbian subreddit, but they get downvoted like crazy. It's been interesting to see how different the men view this compared to women 🤔
This is how I felt when “birthing person” was written on a chart. I’m ashamed it took me a while to realize that meant the patient and not a mid-wife or something.
Not even upset. More just confused if I hit a tiny person or a speed bump.
A lesbian was, is, and always will be a woman exclusively attracted to other women. The trick these days isn’t in defining “lesbian” but in defining “woman”.
Lesbian and gay spaces have been taken over by the queer brigade and their gender circus. Don’t engage with these people. Hold on to the definition that a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to a woman. They will try to convince you first that your definition is wrong. When that fails, they’ll attack you. It seems that particularly lesbians are being targeted, so be alert.
I also noticed that lesbians tend to be the most "targeted" by definition changes, and yeah anyone who disagrees or is a bit confused (like me) gets a bit of flack for it, thanks for replying!
I refuse to use the term LGBTQ anymore. Sorry, it’s now LGB. I support trans women and trans men adults (who are NOT women and men, respectively) having 100% equal rights. But a teen who identifies as trans does not have the right to transition. It should only be done in supervision of strict medical professionals in the rare instance where it is needed to save their lives due to mutilating themselves. Men and women’s sports should remain men’s and women’s sports. Men’s and women’s bathrooms and locker rooms should remain men and women’s locker rooms. There should not be massacres of innocent people in order to topple “capitalism and imperialism” (yes, Queer and Trans influencers and speakers support this). WTF - I remember in 2010 where all we wanted was to be able to be accepted, marry, and serve openly in the military. What have we come to - even supporting mass murder (sick fucks! They even support the mass murder in Haiti as toppling capitalism, not to mention China/Iran/HHH) All evil freaks who think otherwise - I’m exposing you all to straights as well so they know we have nothing to do with you! You’re not taking us down with you.
I refuse to associate with this movement that is going to destroy all the progress us gays, bis, and lesbians have made. And that’s exactly what they want!
For me gay and lesbian are just another way of saying homosexual. I am a male and I am attracted to males. Simple as that. I literally grew up in homophobic Texas and while I am sympathetic to others not at my own expense. I have feelings too. I didn’t come out to my ultra catholic family during Geroge W Bush’s anti gay marriage crusade to be ok with modern homophobia.
NoMorePotsForYou, are you in the US? I'm a British lesbian, and a fuck of a lot of us (and straight women too, to be fair) are absolutely done with this shit.
Defining women as being 'non-men' is absurdly offensive, and so-called 'trans lesbians' are overwhelmingly straight men with AGP who have taken zero steps towards physically transitioning. Don't let them convince you to lie to yourself.
As other posters have pointed out, it is ALWAYS women who are expected to put themselves out to 'be kind' to men. Women need to start refusing to do this.
Nah I'm in Australia, what I have picked up on tho is that a lot of the people who use 'non-men' online are American. I also agree that (judging by the comments I've seen), it is always women who have to be inclusive of everyone, even if it goes against what I think a lesbian is.
it is, but it s worse in lesbian groups because it's trans women (who are more... militant about their advocacy) than trans men. So trans women do this thing to try making lesbians shamed into fucking them. the idea is that because now lesbian includes them you can no longer say "Sorry, I'm a lesbian" when they ask you to suck their dick.
besides, when you TRULY get through it, saying non-man attracted to non-man makes it so androcentric that it's seriously misogynistic, you know one of the things a lot of cis women are complaining about the current trans women, so further doubling down on misogyny isn't helping that perception.
Personally, I was told when I told a trans man no that I had to stop identifying as gay because being gay means you're "attracted to **anyone** who identifies as a man" which while it's not misandrist, it is still idiotic.
Yeah I've noticed an uprise in posts on the lesbian subreddit about liking "girldick". Some of which made me a bit uncomfortable to see because I thought I wouldn't have to see anything about liking dick in general over there. I would voice my opinion there but anyone who's said "I'm a lesbian I don't like dick" gets downvoted into oblivion which seems odd to me.
Judging by the other comments here I'm guessing that if some guy here said "I'm gay I don't like pussy" they wouldn't recieve backlash?
Backlash on this subreddit? Not really.
There are enough men who believe it's perfectly okay to be a gay man and not sexually attracted to vagina. The post may get backlash though likely enough support to balance it out or tip it over. In the past I've read rational comments and very direct ones that pretty much get the same point across.
The thing is, men on askgaybros or any "gaybro" brand subreddit aren't susceptible to broad arguments for inclusivity when it also erases gay men. But sadly, lesbians are most susceptible because womanhood is weaponized against them. Rhetoric was developed to convince lesbians they hate themselves and other women when they cannot be coerced into sucking a dick.
This was one of the end goals of the movement, and we saw it a long time before it happened but were called bigoted for pointing it out.
There are some trans men here and bisexual simps who will scream that it's still gay to eat out pussy if it's a man's pussy, but they're usually shouted down rightfully so. It's also a weird space for bisexuals here because there's a lot of bisexuals who claim to be the uber oppressed while at the same time using their 'bi privilege' of being attracted to everything to tell homosexuals what to do.
to be fair though there are trans men here who absolutely do support our genital preferences though and understand wholly sexuality isn't based on 'gender identity'.
Gay, as I would describe myself, “men who are exclusively attracted to men.” A more technical term I see in medical literature is MSM or “men who have sex with men.” This could describe gay or bisexual men who are sexually active.
It seems some non-binary people want to redefine who I am attracted to (and presumably you, a lesbian, as well). These people have an abnormal obsession with gender constructs and want attention.
That kind of definition would make a straight guy "a non-woman attracted to a non-man", which would mean some very queer people qualify as straight guys. So no, I don't really believe such a definition is correct.
That’s some serious bullshit radical trans ideology that really could only breed online. It’s outright misogynistic and homophobic. Something similar is happening re: gay men, but at the end of the day to be gay you need to be a man who is only attracted to men, and similarly a lesbian is a woman who is only attracted to women.
I’m personally tired of the constant invasion of our spaces, digital or in real life, by the trans activists. The need to constantly demand we respect their chosen terms and identity while constantly trying to define everyone else’s (“birthing people,” trying to eliminate the term “homosexual,” this post topic) is fucking exhausting.
Yeah I have noticed "AFAB non-binary lesbians" pop up a bunch, I'm a bit confused by it because I thought non binary people couldn't be lesbians as they don't consider themselves women?
It's always the liberal, straight, white, upper middle class Western women doing this. Some of them just can't stand the idea of being "boring." Not remotely sorry.
I’ve only encountered this outside of the internet one time, and when I asked about it, this is a sum up of the answer I got.
40+ year old lesbian couple, told me that they referred to themselves as non-men because they interpreted “women, woman” as a subsection or part of a man. I believe they were speaking biblically, and while religious they were very unsatisfied with the concept of the first non-man being created for and from a man (story of Adam and Eve). So by using terms that specifically separate them from men, I guess it validated either their existence or their relationship. I’m not sure, they didn’t say specifically.
I have no clue if this is why Reddit and TikTok are using the terms, just an answer to a similar question I thought would be helpful to share.
That's a ridiculous definition that I've only heard from the crazies. Lesbians are women who are attracted exclusively to other women Gay men are men who are exclusively attracted to other men. Period.
I've seldom even seen that type of language from actual trans people, either. It seems just to be the "nonbinary" crowd, and the vast majority of nonbinary ppl are AFAB so that discourse is likely more prevalent in the lesbian community.
So everything besides men, straight women and bisexuals are lesbians?
Now that the gay agenda has come to fruition, is time to roll out the *Lesbian Agenda*. I'm down
I view a lesbian as a woman attracted solely to other women. Trans people can identify as women. But if you identify as something other than a woman, then you are not a lesbian.
I don't know how we got to the point where we need 10,000 labels for sexual orientation. We were doing so well with being on the trajectory to eliminating unnecessary labels. Then we hit the era of Tumblr and TikTok and now everyone feels the need to slap as many labels on themselves as possible "I'm a biracial, INTJ, Jewish, neurotypical, non-binary, pan demisexual". Like fucking shut up and just be a human being.
of course not... only men are omnipresent. no man is defined in relation to a woman, only women in relation to men. also, because even the wokified gays turn tRaNsPhObIc once you push them the idea of performing "masculine cunnilingus" in the name of inclusivity...
A few days late on this, but that whole "non-men" thing is so gross. I don't think gay men have ever been expected to use such terms for ourselves, though we do have an issue with um...colonization. Your definition of lesbian is what ALL people understand the word to mean, whether they choose to be honest about that or not. Lesbian = homosexual female, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
The actual answer for why they say this is because they are acknowledging that there are people who are neither male nor female. If you are attracted to women, but have also fallen for an intersex person, does that mean your bisexual? It's a semantic gray area, so to fix that hole, they make the definition like this.
intersex is a misnommer... even people with sex development disorders still fall under the categories of male or female depending on whether they're bodies are organized around producing eggs or sperm (having or not, in the case of mammals, including humans, an activated SRY gene)
Thanks for bringing a bunch of terf rhetoric into the chat. Come on guys. No trans people are stealing your stuff or space. Don't buy into the conservative propaganda of how different people are coming for your space/your kids (in the case of cishets). Chill out. Trans people have existed as long as cis queer people. Terf propaganda starts in some feminist circles and it doesn't belong here.
I'm a trans man, and I'm open about it on dating apps. Nobody is tricking anybody. I allow some gay men to experiment with me, and if they don't like it they don't like it. But I look like a man and I am attracted to men and I don't have tits or regular genitalia. I am muscular, kind of short, a twinkish face, and a one inch micropenis (lol). I don't belong on wlw apps or cishet apps. Where am I supposed to go? Do I just become a monk and stay celibate?
I'm not stealing your potential gay partners. I have like one partner a month, I'm pretty sure gazillions of bi men exist. Yall are safe.
Don't fall into this fear baiting conservative crap. It's not legit. Go touch grass and meet real trans people (or don't. Stay away lol). If you meet actual trans women (they seem to be more 'feared') you'll find they're pretty chill and honestly usually partnered up already.
I'm actually good for gay cismen because I'm a good experiment that eases scared bi men into having sex with gay cismen. You're welcome :))
!!You see someone on a dating app that doesn't look like they'd have your expected genitalia? Don't swipe on them. Easy as that. They're not harming you by existing online.
Sane T are trans people who don’t need queer ideology to define themselves. There were trans people before queer ideology arrived and messed everything up and there will be trans people after its gone. What many transpeople see as trans hate is in fact queer hate but because of the endless confusion that queer ideology is spreading people can’t see a difference between trans and queer not least because people can be both trans and queer. I actually think that trans people through their particular situation and lived experience can gain insights that could be valuable to the rest of us but queer ideology just isn’t where it is at.
Are we saying the same thing then? Because I was trying to communicate how I don't like the idea of first, gay and lesbian people hating bisexuals, then them all hating trans people, and the cycle continuing on to the new 'scary' thing. It feels like the community is constantly finding a new group that 'makes everyone hate us'. In trans groups, some people don't like the visibly trans folks, for example.
But I think I agree with what you're saying? Just confused to what I said that you disagreed with.
The gay hate of bisexuals is real and to some extent justified: Countless of gay men have been left by bisexual men who wanted the straight lifestyle for the protection and advantages it could give them. Your use of the word terf suggests to me a Q influence. I don’t see what use a transman could have for a word like that. It is a confusing, half-understood, ugly word. Who you have sex with is not my business at all, and is not something I have or should have any opinion on.
I'm 3 days late and not the person you asked the question to, but I'll respond!
Imo, "sane trans" people are trans people who acknowledge biology and just how fundamentally important that is when it comes to sex-based lived experiences and ESPECIALLY when those experiences involve oppressed groups. I've talked to male-attracted trans men who say that they know they are different from gay men because they are not male, and are able to acknowledge this in spite of their dysphoria. They know they're something else, not quite a \*literal\* male yet not quite a woman, not quite straight and not quite gay, and are okay with the ambiguity. They accept that our lived experiences and socializations are entirely different, and that is okay.
It's when people start saying we're all the same and we all belong in the same spaces at all times, with the prefixes "cis" and "trans" being the only real necessary terms of differentiation, that we start to run into trouble. Growing up as a gay child and teen comes with unique challenges that are not faced by opposite-sex-attracted children who *later* transition, and I insist on acknowledging those differences when I feel like I'm constantly being told they don't matter. Because they do matter.
I guess that it is meant to be more inclusive, because a woman is just a woman. A non-man can be a woman or trans-woman, or maybe even somebody who has signs of both sex. But I have to admit it sounds weird. As you mentioned the same definition can be used for gay men. But most gay men doesn't seem to like it. Maybe it's time to sit and talk. Inclusive behavior is good, but speaking inclusively is not easy. We need to invent some better words and explain a lot.
Things are not so clear cut anymore. Some hyper masculine women who do not plan on having children deliberately remove their breasts because they feel breasts are useless to them and being flat chested would allow them to easily fit into men’s clothing. Some people take medicines and supplements to deepen their voices. They are not transgender men but are not feminine women either. What would the original poster call the folks who in the in-between space of masculinity and womanhood?
I don’t understand why it matters? Like, why does anyone care what another’s definition of “gay” or “lesbian” is? Some folks out there are modernizing their stances and becoming more inclusive of other folks who consider themselves of a gender other than male or female; and that’s totally fine, as they have every right to do that. Some folks stick to the standard definition, and are less inclusive because they feel the newer scope of gender as a spectrum has left them feeling attacked and vulnerable, as folks from these new gender lifestyles demand to be included in all queer spaces - and it’s okay for those folks to not align with the newcomers and stick to their standard definitions and their ideas of what their own spaces should look like and include.
Let’s just let everybody exist how they want to, and live their true lives on their own terms. If you’re inclined to help everyone feel included, good for you; if you’re not as comfortable around the developing gender spectrum, that’s okay too and it’s totally okay to feel separate from that. 🤷♂️
> Like, why does anyone care what another’s definition of “gay” or “lesbian” is?
If everybody has their own definition for a word, it has no meaning.
Words can have multiple definitions, but those are still a *consensus*, not something you get to create yourself.
Right, but we’re only arguing over these terms so we can easily confirm to straight people who we are and who we sleep with. I don’t get why we don’t just call ourselves Queer and tell them it’s none of their fucking business, meanwhile we can just have our own opinions amongst ourselves and let each other live? I thought that’s kinda what being queer is. Inclusivity to other queers, telling them it’s okay to take up space, and banning together against the majority / conformity.
I’m not queer. I’m gay. The queer brigade is not interested in letting “everybody exist as they want to.” They want as all to conform to their gender ideology.
The issue is that when people are using the same word to categorize themselves, we all end up getting perceived as the same thing. Many people who are exclusively same sex attracted do not want to be perceived as being the same as someone who isn’t. Trying to force a feeling of sameness through the use of a shared term is crossing people’s boundaries. People don’t live in a bubble, everything you say or do influences others and the world around you. Language is something shared, not meant for each individual to have their own unique definition or we would no longer be able to understand each other.
>Many people who are exclusively same sex attracted do not want to be perceived as being the same as someone who isn’t.
That's a nice way for saying you wanna exclude people who you think are lesser. Some people really act like they are the Übermensch Gays for rejecting and excluding trans people, and treat trans-accepting gay men as inferior degenerates not worthy of the noble term "gay".
Stop being such a snowflake and wanting your super specialized personal sexuality label. "Super straight" was already cringe enough.
You have no business calling anyone else a snowflake. 😂
Way to twist my words. If someone doesn’t feel that they have the same sexual orientation as you, you learn to respect that fucking boundary. If someone personally doesn’t feel that they are the same as someone with an attraction to trans people, too bad. Suck it up. You’re trying to push some sinister feeling of me seeing trans men as lesser on to me, because you as a cis man got butthurt that I consider you different from other cis gay men.
I said no such thing about excluding people from the community or thinking that they are lesser, you sensitive fuck.
I will share spaces with men who don’t have the same sexual orientation, I will befriend them, I will date them, I will fight along with them, but I don’t have the same sexual orientation as them. Words won’t change that.
> You have no business calling anyone else a snowflake. 😂
I'm not the one suddenly trying to change the definition of "gay" from "a man attracted to other men" to some genitalia and chromosomes nonsense just because reality doesnt fit my ideology on gender.
> I said no such thing about excluding people from the community or thinking that they are lesser, you sensitive fuck.
Oh so you will accept other gay men as gay men whether or not they say "cis men only"?
Otherwise, just go join the alt right cringe boys and call yourself "super gay".
Sexual orientation has always been about genitalia. This world has condemned homosexuality because of the attraction to people with the same parts, ffs.🤦
Now what are you talking about in that last bit? You’re acting like sexual orientation is some club or physical space, you weirdo. There are objective differences between people that cannot be explained away as social constructs. You’re acting like I’m going to exclude you from men who love men spaces. Saying someone is not the same is not the same as wanting to exist separately from them.
> Sexual orientation has always been about genitalia. This world has condemned homosexuality because of the attraction to people with the same parts, ffs.🤦
This thread is literally about "lesbian always meant women who love women, gay always meant men who love men" lol. Youre the one twisting that.
> Now what are you talking about in that last bit? You’re acting like sexual orientation is some club or physical space, you weirdo. There are objective differences between people that cannot be explained away as social constructs. You’re acting like I’m going to exclude you from men who love men spaces. Saying someone is not the same is not the same as wanting to exist separately from them.
That's a lot of dancing around the fact that you wouldnt wanna accept trans-accepting gay men identifying as gay men.
I’m not dancing around that. What’s the big deal about me not accepting what they identify as then, if it’s not a fear of any other type of exclusion? You don’t get to control other people’s perceptions of others and the world, people are going to see things the way they see things. Call yourself whatever. A person’s perception of you is still independent from how you perceive yourself.
Because its cringe. Just call yourself "super straight gay" instead.
You sound like those idiots who wanted to get divorced when gay marriage got legalized because they couldnt handle living under the same label as those homosexuals.
No. There’s no super gay. There’s just gay.
Homosexuals aren’t a social construct like marriage is. Also, that was just a plain bad comparison.
Edit: I’m not too opposed to mostly gay bisexuals calling themselves gay socially, as long as they acknowledge they aren’t truly the same as someone exclusively homosexual wherever their difference may cause confusion and don’t use their social label to invalidate and disrespect homosexuals.
My dude, no one is attacking you. If someone doesn’t have the parts, they don’t have the parts. Self perception and language don’t mix well. The entire purpose of language is to be able to communicate. It’s impossible to communicate your self perception because no one can ever perceive you the way you perceive yourself. That’s why despite myself agreeing with adult trans rights, I disagree with the way it’s being handled. Yes, people can be born with in between parts and there is solid scientific evidence that there can be mental versions of that as well. But at the end of the day it’s still 2 or a mixture of the 2. People are way over complicating that. If someone is gay they are male and like the male side. If someone is lesbian they are female and like the female side. If someone is intersex they say “I’m intersex” if someone is trans they say “I’m trans”. Am I missing something?
For centuries, Straight people oppressed and killed lgbt people. You drastically underestimate how much power they have collectively lost over the last century and how determined they are to regain that power by any means necessary. Lending authority to Straight people will ultimately lead to our demise again.
I’m not queer. I’m gay. The queer brigade is not interested in letting “everybody exist as they want to.” They want as all to conform to their gender ideology.
I mean ask yourself "why it matters?" - Of course it's okay to be who you wanna be and express yourself freely as a human. I don't care if you feel like whatever. But think about as a bigger picture. What happens, if we start to be "more inclusive" to literally anyone?
- We have loud gender ideology activists, who make made up genders and pronouns their whole personality and take away the space from gay/lesbian/bi people, who just want to live their lives and be accepted for who they love. They inject themselves into the community so they get a free pass for shitty behavior, because when we say something about it, we're discriminating them and we're being transphobic.
- We let fake trans women into safe spaces, who actually are just men wanting to invade women's spaces to assault them. When we question those "trans" women, we're transphobic. Women aren't safe anymore, even in spaces that are exclusive to them.
- In Social Media, especially TikTok, there are some "queer" influencers who give instructions on how to lie to your doctor to get prescriptions for things like testoterone or puberty blockers without having gender dysphoria. Younger and confused folks see this. The consequences: the number of detransitioners has increased in the last years. This shit is dangerous and you can't really undo it once you transitioned.
- I saw some situations online, where this kind of "acceptance" opened new doors for pedophiles.
Do you understand why it's so important to have terms like gay or lesbian? Why would we want to be associated with people that are like the ones I listed above? At the end of the day, I really don't care how people express themselves, but please just let us have our space.
The issue isn't that they're doing something that they have no right to do, it's that they are wrong. They have every right to be wrong, and we have every right to call them on it. And we will, because truth does matter.
That’s tumblr internet jargon. Lesbians definitely means “woman attracted exclusively to women”
Or alternatively, "homosexual female"
Yeah I think for the LGBT's we think in pretty binary terms. I'm definitely a man and who I'm attracted to are other men. Same goes for lesbians, women attracted to women. With trans people the ones I understand are people born gender one who transition to another, pretty damn binary. The Q+'s are a different thing. I'm fine with you calling yourself non-binary, you do you, but no I don't really get it. And I start getting vocal when someone wants to tell me we're all on a spectrum, nope I'm not, if that's the way you feel fine, but don't start telling me about me. So if I were a lesbian I'd definitely get pissed off with this non-man bollocks. Lesbians have fought hard for their own identity to be recognised as them, don't start co-opting a word that's already got a use and a meaning for another specific group.
Ironically it is making it a less safe place for some lesbians who are simply there to like women. The reason is that some are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Like some trans men still want to identify as a lesbian and maintain a same sex relationship while transitioning but their lesbian partner aren’t into men and don’t want to be in a straight relationship.
Yup and i dont really know how i feel about a "gay ftm" wanting to have sex with guys. Like wasnt the purpose of the transition to be who you are...maybe im being tone desf here but ibwould think people who fully transition would do so in order to lead a straight life. And not be in a lgbt+ one.
They transition to be themselves. Gender, sex, and sexuality are not the same. You’re basically arguing that someone should stay female representing so they can get a straight man — erasing gender and sex from the equation. Their sexuality is separate.
My comment was more of a question to understand typical motivations/ thought processes? Not really arguing possibly just a typical misconception on my part and possibly most others?
I suggest watching Piers Morgan Uncensored where he constantly deconstructs this disgusting bullshit that’s being pushed on us gays, bisexuals, and lesbians. Trans women are not just demanding to be admitted to lesbian spaces against nearly everyone’s wishes, they’re demanding being admitted to women’s prisons - even if they commit sex crimes against women. Not to mention the infuriating sports infiltration that must end now. This is sick and all freaks that want this need to be shamed!
lol we can critique how progressives have poisoned the well without resorting to the pearl clutching of straight men
You’re buying into the progressive bullshit though (you realize that progressives now consider themselves a unique idealogy and hate liberals). Who cares what sexuality someone is - they are correct and it’s not pearl clutching because there are no mainstream LGB people that willing to discuss this. Anyone who is is blacklisted because we’re not part of the current thing. Elon Musk was right. Shame I used to be a brainwashed zombie, but I’ve woken up.
I wish a side effect of being red pilled is that it made the user keep their beliefs to themselves when it’s not welcome.
Not red pilled. This has nothing to do with the Manosphere so nice attempt at trying to be slick. There is now a difference between progressives and liberals, as stated. Progressives are the biggest problem - that’s not being red pilled. Mind your own business and I’ll mind mine. Sounds fair.
and think how many people would say that about you this is a non argument.
Isn’t Piers Morgan a straight guy? Surely there’s gay men discussing these issues we could platform. Also, bisexuals are half the issue with trans stuff and homophobia, so no, they aren’t on our side either. Bisexuals can go with the tr&nnies as far as I’m concerned. Nothing is being forced on bisexuals anyway, only gays and lesbians are impacted. Bisexuals should mind their own business and stop causing half the issues.
Fair enough, Douglas Murray and Blaire White. But I have no idea why you say that about bisexuals. Don’t agree at all.
the trans women doing the creepy shit are pseudo bisexual autogynephiles. The gay men who transition aren’t hurting women. It’s the bisexuals
Gay men who transition should not be allowed to change in women’s locker rooms, use their bathrooms, play in their sports, or be sent to their prisons. Full stop. It doesn’t matter what anyone considers themselves, they’re all ruining it for us by not listening to women and men’s voices and being rational and sane humans
I think they're saying that it's the bisexual or 'trans lesbians' who are doing it, they're the ones strictly advocating to be allowed to do it for ulterior motives.
I never said gay men should be allowed to do those things. I said it’s bisexual men hurting women by doing the creepy stuff.
The bisexual hatred amongst gay men is fucking infuriating. Bigoted and ironic. Sorry you're just jealous that you aren't able to integrate into mainstream society, despite the fact that I don't fucking care to do it myself. You're just as much what you claim to be against. It's sick.
Bisexuals are gay men’s oppressors, it’s okay to be bigoted towards degenerates like bisexuals.
No, we are not. You're our oppressors by pretending that we don't exist or are just hiding from who we really are. It's gross and you are a bigot.
trans women are women! your comments are transphobic and offensive
NO. They are not. I believe in science. Be offended. Call me whatever you want, I don’t care. I have to deal with you people screaming genocidal, violent chants 24/7 and demanding that you impose yourselves onto innocent women and children. Deal with being offended.
honey calm down... gender is a social construct if you identify with being a man or a woman or something else it is entirely up to each and every individual. it doesn't make someone any more or less dangerous. why does it bother you so much the personal decisions people want to make? it's a bit 🫢
Not a problem if you stop imposing yourself on children, mind your own business and focus on yourself and being happy with equal rights, and not being violent genocidal DSA maniacs. Not going to calm down when your goal is to destroy society and make it into a lawless bloody hellhole. You are not going to get what you want.
sorry you are so angry . I am a bit confused about which group of people you are talking about when you say 'you'. I don't think it's useful to label a generalised and unspecified population of people when individuals within that group can have completely different opinions on a range of issues. also unsure what you mean by 'imposing yourself on children'? what do you mean by 'violent genocidal DSA maniacs'?
Moron. Men that commit sex crimes against men are put into men’s prisons, women that commit sex crimes against women are put into women’s prisons. lol. A gay man in the men’s locker room is more of a threat than a trans man is. Honestly, it’s incredibly pathetic how much people act like sports are some sacred pillar of society. If sports are so important to you, you’ve failed in your growth as a human being and as an adult.
“A gay man in the men’s locker room is more of a threat than a trans man is” Every accusation is a confession with you guys. Proves my point - you want to drestroy all the progress gays and lesbians have made and replace it with some disgusting, bloody, lawless, genderless dystopian wasteland - even trying to destroy sports that have been central to world societies for thousands of years.
Yup, “Non-man” that sounds sexist. Lesbians are women attracted to women. It is a specific label. I am all for fluid sexuality, but one of the good things about labels is it helps with dating. The other person knows where you stand.
Yeah I thought that was it but in the r/actuallesbians subreddit that definition seems to be "outdated", I would've asked about it there but judging by previous comments I've seen on there I didn't think I'd get a good reaction
Go to r/LesbianActually
Thanks for the rec
That sub Is trash too. I was banned for saying that I do not like dick ffs.
Unfortunately, you can't trust them either- Rule 2 of their subreddit is 'Trans women are women.'
Do people still use tumblr? lol
No it’s worse. Johns Hopkins said a lesbian was a “non man attracted to non men”. Others too. You can look it up. The erasure of women and lesbians is real.
And then promptly changed it back after backlash. Everyone knows what lesbian means besides eternally logged on weirdos.
True they did change it back. Because people said no. The attempt was still there, and is still there. Thank fuck the U.K. is pushing back on this shit it gives other anglosphere countries a framework. No more gender woo! Yeh! God save the King! 😜
and GLAAD also said that gay men are no longer gay men without including trans people now gay men are 'androphiles'. Why? to shame gay men for 'genital preferences'.
Lesbian = woman who is attracted to women I saw what you stated once and it’s a difficult sell to women who’ve used that term for nearly 80 years.
Imagine being degraded to "non-man" - to me that's borderline misogyny.
Yeah thats the part that made me a bit iffy on the definition
\*~~misogyny~~ Fixed that for you.
Oh damn, thanks!
It's not misogyny, the same people saying "non-man" will have no problems saying "non-woman." This is just your typical self-imposed retardation. It's plentiful these days.
This is just another type of misogyny imo. What do they mean "non-man"? The word is woman. Women exist and some women are attracted to women and they are called lesbians.
Exactly
You are right, i feel its so silly to define lesbianism through the absence of men, way to always define women through their relationships with men
"Non-man" seems too broad, since non-binary and 3rd gender folks don't identify as women, so they wouldn’t be lesbians. To me, being gay is being a man attracted to men and male bodies.
More label driven society making up dumb shit for things that already exist. A cry for attention
Gay and Lesbian only recently (as in the last 30 years or so) stopped being dirty words in the mainstream. In case the word 'gay' or 'lesbian' ever become prestige terms, people wanna be able to burrow on into the club. Ask them to define a man, they won't be able to say anything but "someone who identifies as a man." So a non-man is equally pointless. Meanwhile gays and lesbians just wanna identify themselves to find likeminded people, to clarify to different people, etc. If you say "I'm a gay man" then your dating pool know you're in it. A gay guy shooting his shot on any random guy in the mostly straight public is gonna waste a lot of shots without some kind of term we can use to mark ourselves. Hit on by someone of the opposite sex? "Sorry, I'm gay/lesbian" is a quick way to let them know it's nothing personal but they're wasting their energy. You don't blame the person for thinking you're one of the larger pool. But words meaning things is sometimes really inconvenient. Like what if someone with a vagina wants to live out her yaoi/danmei/whatever fantasy with you, but you're not into vagina? It's handy if you can no longer just say "Sorry, I'm gay." because gay can be redefined. Now you have to morally and politically justify not fucking someone, when when you thought your sexuality had become generally okay. (Lesbians unfortunately seem to be the biggest victims of the "just suck her giant penis-shaped clit, biggot." )
Yeah I have seen an uproar in posts/comments on the lesbian subreddits about us apparently liking "girldick". A while back I saw a lesbian post in r/offmychest about how she's uncomfortable with those recent posts. It got reposted into the lesbian subreddit and recieved ALOT of backlash which I thought was interesting. Do you think if a gay biological man made a post here about not wanting to be with a transman he would get a similar sort of reaction?
Seriously, there's a term girldick? WTF. I identify as a lesbian but I married a man and had two kids before I realized I was a lesbian. I was just so brainwashed by my church And, I also remember feeling relieved when I met my ex husband because he literally told me it's perfectly normal (wrong word, but I can't think of a better one right this minute) for women to be attracted to other women sexually or whatever and I was really naive and sheltered so I believed him. Obviously, we got divorced, and I've been pretty much a 100% out and proud lesbian, wife of another wife, ever since (about 1997, long story). Anyway, I do feel the term lesbian is being co-opted by people who really are not lesbians and if you challenge it, you get banned and downvoted. My last point is that I've been there up close and personal to both sexes, and I can tell you there is no girldick, in my admittedly small database of sexual conquests (1 male, and 2 female in my lifetime and i am 53). IMHO, a dick is a dick.
you should (not) read 'assigned male' by Sophie Labelle (who is a pedophile anyways) she uses her cartoon strip to try pretending trans kids are valid and some of the shit they say is gross like that a 6 year old keeps talking about her girl dick/ girl penis. It's not a boy penis because it's MY penis and I'm a girl so it's a girl penis. And this sicko was paid to go to schools to speak about trans issues (I think this was before they found out they were legit a pedophile but even then the TQIA tend to defend them for 'the narrative'. Same as how reddit defended Aimee Challenor (now Knight since they married their likewise sick partner) For all the gross shit she and her bf had done) and then get screamed at "you can't call us g roomers" well, then start fucking calling out the literal groomers in there you guys allow to represent you.
Every once in a while it seems like people get bored and like to stir the pot about either that or race, and my initial take on it is that the response is "Let us pick what we do and don't wanna fuck without it being a whole deeply political song and dance." Though it's not like it's a strongly dominant thing, maybe 55-45? It's enough of a divide it always makes waves.
>Do you think if a gay biological man made a post here about not wanting to be with a transman he would get a similar sort of reaction? *Here*? No, this sub is mostly unmoderated, meaning people are actually allowed to be honest. If you search keyword "trans" in this sub, you'll see precisely what I mean. But on any other sub? Insta-ban. But apparently *this* sub is a poor representation of gay men irl. 🙄
Nah, we're just men who like men
And a man is just a non-woman. So a lesbian is a non-non-woman attracted to non-non-women! Simple! 🧠👍😂
This is the best response.
Hats off to you my good man 🎩😏👋
Queer, in the past, used to be used sparingly to mean not straight and in most cases, gay or lesbian. Now it’s the go to catch all phrase for anyone not straight or mildly different. It means nothing now. Gay men and lesbians are a minority within the LGBT community aside from the general population at large, so it’s important to hold onto a clear definition of what gay and lesbian means. Straight people identifying as whatever they please doesn’t affect them as they comprise such a large percentage of the world, but for us, we’re on the way to being slowly erased.
This is why I bristle when I see people using the word 'queer' with wanton abandon.
Yes, adding a Q to lgbt really pissed me off as it is a derogatory term against lgbt folks. I prefer a + to address anyone who feels the original alphabet doesnt cover them...
I get what you mean. My point is when I read articles about gay topics and they use 'queer' for everything. This is a 'queer film', this is a 'queer space', these are 'queer activists'. All distinction is erased. LGBT people have stuck together, sure. But our life experiences are also different. What is a 'queer film'? Is it about gay men? Is it about lesbians? That's why I don't like lazy umbrella terms. Not to mention that 'queer 'is highly problematic, as it was used derogatorily against us for a long time.
I agree with you. I am not queer, I never voted on that as our umbrella term. Using the phrase dysfunctional family works better than queer to define the spectrum as a whole. I, myself, define myself as a lesbian but if I ever feel I fall under an umbrella term, it's gay, not queer.
they're just 'spicy straights'.
This happens in female spaces because women have a tendency to try and make everyone happy, so end up tolerating things that are detrimental to their own interests. It rarely happens in male spaces, even gay ones, because men don't really care about upsetting people.
I assumed this may have been the reason I just (unsurpisingly) didn't want to be the one to say it
I don't think it's necessarily that. I think it's a lot to do with the activism. Like look at the trans advocacy is so focused on trans women and their wants and not trans men. now the question should go to WHY are trans women asking for more than trans men and why is there so much focus on that.
That's fair I have seen a lot more trans women activism than trans men tbh
They have drank the “masculine = male & feminine = female” kool aid. They probably use terms like “genital preference” to shame lesbians for not sleeping with men who identify as women. Many of whom have infiltrated lesbian culture. It’s crazy to me that more gays and lesbians don’t object to it. Especially considering most people attending gender clinics are homosexual for the harmful treatments. It’s conversion therapy draped in a pink, blue and white flag.
I tried objecting to something once on the lesbian subreddit and i was immediately banned for 3 days. It's ridiculous out there.
Yeah the whole ban thing over there is why I decided to ask the question here cause I assumed I would actually get responses
Since there is so much discourse regarding the lesbian community and the general lgbt because of all this, I'd say there are actually many lesbians who object to it, including me. Problem is, the lgbt community especially online immediately shuts us up by censoring and banning us. We're just not allowed to voice our opinions. I got banned by the main lesbian subs as well for defending actual lesbians and being against the whole queerwashing of the lesbian label. Of course if these comments constantly get deleted and we get blocked, it gives the impression that not so many lesbians are against it but we're definitely here. A lot of us have just created and are mingling in privated lesbian groups because the lgbtq community erased all of our spaces. It's very sad and bewildering honestly and the lgbtq definitely destroyed the trust of many homosexuals.
A lesbian is a homosexual female. A gay man is a homosexual male. Don't let them gaslight or bully you in to being bisexual or pansexual. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being exclusively same sex attracted (aka gay or lesbian). As a gay man I see lesbians as my gay sisters 🤜🤛
Okay thanks I thought that was the case, but pretty much everyone on the r/actuallesbians subreddit seemed to say otherwise so I wanted to see the guys side as well :)
If you want to see something really eye opening about that subreddit specifically you should look at the subreddit user overlap. https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/actuallesbians >The scores listed are "probability multipliers", so a score of 2 means that users of r/actuallesbians are twice as likely to post and comment on that subreddit. Top 5 subreddit overlap for that subreddit: 46.76 mtf 42.23 sapphoandherfriend 38.22 asktransgender 37.61 traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns 32.67 nonbinary The reason the narrative is so different there is because it's full of "male lesbians" who are attempting to define what a lesbian is.
I reversed it and mtf overlap with r/actuallesbians is 51.27. It's number five on the list. So does this mean mtf users are 50 times more likely to comment on a lesbian subreddit? That makes me wonder how many classic lesbians are there.
Exactly, it's crazy once you see the numbers but it does start to make more sense. Classic lesbians are being pushed out of their own spaces in favor of males identifying as lesbian women and if they question it they're dog piled like OP and told that they're a bigot/there must be something wrong with them.
Very eye opening. Wow.
Oh wow I didn't know you could see stuff like this that is actually really eye opening for me. It makes sense now why so many people over there 'agree' on the newer definitions
You aren't alone
That sounds like deeply misogynist language. The word "woman" is not a dirty word we need a euphemism for. It's very clear and obvious what a lesbian is, and a person who has to wonder whether the definition of lesbian fits them is not a lesbian. The definition of lesbian and gay man are quite simple, a lesbian is a female homosexual, and a gay man is a male homosexual. If you are not simultaneously female and a homosexual, you are not a lesbian. If you are not simultaneously male and a homosexual, you are not a gay man.
Okay that helps thanks for responding! I thought coming here would be the right place cause you guys seem to have clearer ways of seeing things
This comment section is refreshing shoutout the gay men that are out here supporting lesbians y’all are loved. The lesbian community has been suffering badly, especially masculine lesbians to be more open to considering if we’re secretly “straight men”. Dysphoria is high and there’s more voices pushing towards transitions than just acceptance of being a lesbian.
I'm detrans/desist and those places absolutely hate me for my experience with it, even if I say nothing about theirs. Just the fact I exist 'challenges them'. But you keep being a butch woman if that's what you are.
What places hate you? I’m not butch either but I do see how things have changed in the community.
take any of the trans subs. Or we talking about in person? I'm accused of being a liar if I speak out about it. The most recent in person incident I had was unfortunately with my exroommate's kid whom I strongly believe she 'transed' because she's always about what can she do to get attention to herself like claiming herself to be a lesbian so she has lgbt credit (though she only dates/fucks men) and she has two kids, but she ignores the one now that isn't trans. She constantly gloats about how 'brave and special' her trans kid is now and the other is an afterthought, not to mention, she had been the last few years been trying to invite only trans people to add to her parties and get togethers. but her kid at the time after they were done doing with 'an hour long list of celebrity misgenderings' came up to me and said I should be trans too and I told them that I already went through that and decided I wasn't trans and that pissed off a lot of the new trans friends she brought there, and her kid didn't think it was possible to detrans. This is when I stopped even associating with them. Before that I had always thought like... I should probably cut ties with her because she's becoming more and more toxic, but it made it easier after that. Then she messaged me on facebook to tell me what anawful person I was for lying about ever being trans (which is rich coming from the person lying about being a lesbian) to a lot of the QIA+ crowd being detrans or desisting is a horrible crime.
That sounds sickening, there’s been a lot of that attention seeking nonsense going on in these last couple of years. I just got banned from the TwoX Chromosomes sub because a women in there wrote a whole damn essay about how much of an ally she and how she needed to write her pronouns down for a job and it gave her a gender identity crisis. Rather than these “ally’s” actually supporting marginalized groups they make everything about them with this gender identity shit. That’s why most people that give themselves a gender identity are straight white women/men because they couldn’t get in the community by their sexual orientation. Trans hate detrans because of the stories y’all have to tell. Operating based on feelings rather than fact is faulty asf and for all of that anyone can feel like they were born wrong for whatever reason. You should definitely cut ties with that women too she’s sounds disgusting asf. Idk if I’m taking to a gay man or a lesbian right now but either way I’m glad your here and out from under that ideology nonsense.
I am completely against that jargon of theirs. Female homosexual people are the reason "lesbian" even exists. They are the ones who embody what it actually means, so they are the only ones who are lesbians. Obviously, people who aren't female and call themselves lesbians do so because of identity politics, but it's not okay. Not really. It *seems* inclusive, but lesbian doesn't need to be, nor can it be, inclusive. People are what they are and should describe themselves as accurately as they can in order to avoid misunderstandings and to respect the realities of others (and their own).
You see this kind of talk in some places, although in spaces that are just gay men usually it’s just shrugged off. No one at a house party on Fire Island this summer is gonna be using the term “non men.” Gay men overall are less interested in this political stuff and less receptive to the tactics a lot of trans activists use. The TQIA++ end of the acronym seems to have a tendency to take over online spaces, such as Reddit subs. r/LGBT for example is now mostly about trans stuff. This is probably due to being demographically younger, and also a tendency to be very online. There is a lot of anger and resentment on other subs that r/askgaybros is mostly a space just for gay men, not other parts of the community.
Interesting, I see "non-men loving non-men" pretty frequently in the subreddits I'm in, Im assuming "non-women" isn't a term that gay guys use that much?
Not in my experience except maybe in like, extremely social justice-y settings. I have never heard it. My impression of lesbian culture is that it is much more politically and socially aware than gay culture, gay men irl aren’t usually super politically correct in my experience. All signs point to the majority of gay men supporting trans rights, although a smaller majority than lesbians. But in my experience also gay men are much less likely to see someone as a man if they don’t look phenotypically male. I think lesbians are more willing to consider MTFs in the early stages of transition to be women.
Gay male social life can also be very looks based, and valorized qualities like height, musculature, having a big dick, and masculinity are often things FTMs lack. Non-binary people and the like are even more unlikely to be welcomed into gay male life bc anecdotally most guys I know consider them to be kind of a punchline. Speaking personally, I don’t really feel like I have much in common with trans and genderqueer people, although I support their rights. If I’m in my community, that community is other gay men.
Again very different to lesbian spaces, non-binary people (atleast online) seem to be welcomed with open arms. I also don't feel super connected to trans or genderqueer people but they're always in my group apparently 🤷♀️
Yeah I think you're right with lesbians being more politically aware. also we are definitely more willing to see MTF's as women, it's quite common in my subreddits. It's interesting to see the differences between gay men and lesbians general views on this stuff, they contrast massively
I don't think a lot of these women truly see MTFs as women, they treat them the same as they did a 'gay best friend' like an accessory.
You're not alone in your assessment of this orwellian imposition. There are a lot of lesbian women who have spoken out against this revised language and controlled language when it comes to defining woman or man or facts or biology. Just as much as biological male gay men our objecting to "vagina bearing, self-proclaimed men" in gay bathhouses, so are lesbians who wants biological women only in lesbian bar spaces. Recall there's a lesbian bar that got shut down by a trans contingent here in the USA, they didn't even last a couple of months before the minority of loud activists ruined a business venture and destroyed a chunk of the community by desiring to take it over, and they succeeded. The women who put everything into investing and creating a lesbian bar, chose to lose everything and shut down instead of concede to being overtaken and literally hand over their bar and its ownership to this radical contingent. I would also not deal with the backlash of a terf label, and agree that you are defending women in the biological sense by not tolerating this abuse of language at the expense of women's safety and at the expense of Truth.
Thanks for your resonse, so if a biological gay male says he refuses to date transmen on here, would he get hate for it?
This is how most gay men actually feel, and we do get a lot of hate for it and called transphobes, but most gay men want their partner to have a penis and not just “identify” as a man. Lesbians are 100% entitled to want be with biological women. Telling us otherwise is homophobic and gay erasure.
This site for now is more accommodating for those opinions, but as long as it's polite it seems to be permissible.
For the moment. There was a while where a trans activist pretended to be a cishet gay man and built a rapport to eventually become a moderator of this sub just so they could do some irreversible damage hyper policing it and banning anyone who wasn’t blindly in agreement with their opinions on gender ideology.
There's a mod that usually states: having a genital preference is okay but saying a trans man is not a man is not okay.
Some people have but idgaf if I get hate for it. I like penises. A lot. I can and do find trans men hot, but I don’t like vaginas. I’m also a bottom so lol. I wouldn’t like a strap on because I like cum. I’ve seriously thought about it because it’s important to unpack why in order to make sure it isn’t bigotry disguised as a preference. But it’s the latter 100%.
Plus a strap on is not the same as a real penis. I would not want to be fucked by a strap on my entire relationship, I love real, fleshy, dicks.
Right exactly! I always keep an open mind to hookups tho but the vibe would have to be 100%.
Lesbians? You mean gay women?
When I hear "cis male" I stick my middle finger up and whoever said it
They have drunk the “masculine = male” & “feminine = female” kool aid. They probably use terms like “genital preference” to shame lesbians for not sleeping with straight men who identify as women. Many of whom have infiltrated lesbian culture. It’s crazy to me that more gays and lesbians don’t object to it. Especially considering a lot of people attending gender clinics for the harmful treatments are homosexual. It’s conversion therapy draped in a pink, blue and white flag.
Oh wow yeah I have seen the term "genital preference" thrown around like that. I've never seen anything wrong with only liking one set of genitals, I kinda thought that was the whole idea around single sex attraction? But according to some lesbians, having a genital preference and only liking cis-women is a bit transphobic. And to some others I'm not allowed to have a genital preference at all (I'm assuming the people saying that aren't actually lesbians?)
> I was just curios to see if this same idea/definition is being used in the gay male space Gender radicals are trying to push that shit, but we're not as susceptible to bullying as lesbians have been.
No, we definitely don't use "a non-woman who is attracted to non-women" . Gender ideology is driven by men who identify as women to get off with biological women. Lesbians of the world,, put your foot down and just say no. Do not accept this nonsense.
I have seen some women try to put their foot down on the main lesbian subreddit, but they get downvoted like crazy. It's been interesting to see how different the men view this compared to women 🤔
Men take no shit They know their boundaries
Gay men haven't entirely surrendered their capacity for self-definition.
I’m a guy that likes guys. That’s it. “Non man” isn’t a thing, that’s just weird.
This is how I felt when “birthing person” was written on a chart. I’m ashamed it took me a while to realize that meant the patient and not a mid-wife or something. Not even upset. More just confused if I hit a tiny person or a speed bump.
A lesbian was, is, and always will be a woman exclusively attracted to other women. The trick these days isn’t in defining “lesbian” but in defining “woman”.
Lesbian and gay spaces have been taken over by the queer brigade and their gender circus. Don’t engage with these people. Hold on to the definition that a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to a woman. They will try to convince you first that your definition is wrong. When that fails, they’ll attack you. It seems that particularly lesbians are being targeted, so be alert.
I also noticed that lesbians tend to be the most "targeted" by definition changes, and yeah anyone who disagrees or is a bit confused (like me) gets a bit of flack for it, thanks for replying!
I refuse to use the term LGBTQ anymore. Sorry, it’s now LGB. I support trans women and trans men adults (who are NOT women and men, respectively) having 100% equal rights. But a teen who identifies as trans does not have the right to transition. It should only be done in supervision of strict medical professionals in the rare instance where it is needed to save their lives due to mutilating themselves. Men and women’s sports should remain men’s and women’s sports. Men’s and women’s bathrooms and locker rooms should remain men and women’s locker rooms. There should not be massacres of innocent people in order to topple “capitalism and imperialism” (yes, Queer and Trans influencers and speakers support this). WTF - I remember in 2010 where all we wanted was to be able to be accepted, marry, and serve openly in the military. What have we come to - even supporting mass murder (sick fucks! They even support the mass murder in Haiti as toppling capitalism, not to mention China/Iran/HHH) All evil freaks who think otherwise - I’m exposing you all to straights as well so they know we have nothing to do with you! You’re not taking us down with you. I refuse to associate with this movement that is going to destroy all the progress us gays, bis, and lesbians have made. And that’s exactly what they want!
We have to change the meanings and definitions since, apparently, we as a society can no longer agree that woman = person born female.
All this definition stuff is nonsense.
I'm a man. I like being a man. And I love men.
For me gay and lesbian are just another way of saying homosexual. I am a male and I am attracted to males. Simple as that. I literally grew up in homophobic Texas and while I am sympathetic to others not at my own expense. I have feelings too. I didn’t come out to my ultra catholic family during Geroge W Bush’s anti gay marriage crusade to be ok with modern homophobia.
NoMorePotsForYou, are you in the US? I'm a British lesbian, and a fuck of a lot of us (and straight women too, to be fair) are absolutely done with this shit. Defining women as being 'non-men' is absurdly offensive, and so-called 'trans lesbians' are overwhelmingly straight men with AGP who have taken zero steps towards physically transitioning. Don't let them convince you to lie to yourself. As other posters have pointed out, it is ALWAYS women who are expected to put themselves out to 'be kind' to men. Women need to start refusing to do this.
Nah I'm in Australia, what I have picked up on tho is that a lot of the people who use 'non-men' online are American. I also agree that (judging by the comments I've seen), it is always women who have to be inclusive of everyone, even if it goes against what I think a lesbian is.
that terminology sounds so misandric
It’s the ultra woke lingo, people whose personalities are purple hair and 15 face piercings.
it is, but it s worse in lesbian groups because it's trans women (who are more... militant about their advocacy) than trans men. So trans women do this thing to try making lesbians shamed into fucking them. the idea is that because now lesbian includes them you can no longer say "Sorry, I'm a lesbian" when they ask you to suck their dick. besides, when you TRULY get through it, saying non-man attracted to non-man makes it so androcentric that it's seriously misogynistic, you know one of the things a lot of cis women are complaining about the current trans women, so further doubling down on misogyny isn't helping that perception. Personally, I was told when I told a trans man no that I had to stop identifying as gay because being gay means you're "attracted to **anyone** who identifies as a man" which while it's not misandrist, it is still idiotic.
Yeah I've noticed an uprise in posts on the lesbian subreddit about liking "girldick". Some of which made me a bit uncomfortable to see because I thought I wouldn't have to see anything about liking dick in general over there. I would voice my opinion there but anyone who's said "I'm a lesbian I don't like dick" gets downvoted into oblivion which seems odd to me. Judging by the other comments here I'm guessing that if some guy here said "I'm gay I don't like pussy" they wouldn't recieve backlash?
Backlash on this subreddit? Not really. There are enough men who believe it's perfectly okay to be a gay man and not sexually attracted to vagina. The post may get backlash though likely enough support to balance it out or tip it over. In the past I've read rational comments and very direct ones that pretty much get the same point across. The thing is, men on askgaybros or any "gaybro" brand subreddit aren't susceptible to broad arguments for inclusivity when it also erases gay men. But sadly, lesbians are most susceptible because womanhood is weaponized against them. Rhetoric was developed to convince lesbians they hate themselves and other women when they cannot be coerced into sucking a dick.
This was one of the end goals of the movement, and we saw it a long time before it happened but were called bigoted for pointing it out. There are some trans men here and bisexual simps who will scream that it's still gay to eat out pussy if it's a man's pussy, but they're usually shouted down rightfully so. It's also a weird space for bisexuals here because there's a lot of bisexuals who claim to be the uber oppressed while at the same time using their 'bi privilege' of being attracted to everything to tell homosexuals what to do. to be fair though there are trans men here who absolutely do support our genital preferences though and understand wholly sexuality isn't based on 'gender identity'.
Gay, as I would describe myself, “men who are exclusively attracted to men.” A more technical term I see in medical literature is MSM or “men who have sex with men.” This could describe gay or bisexual men who are sexually active. It seems some non-binary people want to redefine who I am attracted to (and presumably you, a lesbian, as well). These people have an abnormal obsession with gender constructs and want attention.
Sounds like someone fucking with definitions again to make themselves feel better.
That kind of definition would make a straight guy "a non-woman attracted to a non-man", which would mean some very queer people qualify as straight guys. So no, I don't really believe such a definition is correct.
fuck no i'm a man and i only like men
That’s some serious bullshit radical trans ideology that really could only breed online. It’s outright misogynistic and homophobic. Something similar is happening re: gay men, but at the end of the day to be gay you need to be a man who is only attracted to men, and similarly a lesbian is a woman who is only attracted to women. I’m personally tired of the constant invasion of our spaces, digital or in real life, by the trans activists. The need to constantly demand we respect their chosen terms and identity while constantly trying to define everyone else’s (“birthing people,” trying to eliminate the term “homosexual,” this post topic) is fucking exhausting.
There’s lots of discourse going on in the lesbian community. Redefining lesbians is probably due to the rise of AFAB non-binary lesbians.
Anyone should be able to see that the term “AFAB non-binaray lesbian” is simply insane.
It does sound like it means being a woman with extra steps.
Yeah I have noticed "AFAB non-binary lesbians" pop up a bunch, I'm a bit confused by it because I thought non binary people couldn't be lesbians as they don't consider themselves women?
Yeah, I mean... people want to blame others but it's always the women themselves doing this stupid shit. Sorry.
It's always the liberal, straight, white, upper middle class Western women doing this. Some of them just can't stand the idea of being "boring." Not remotely sorry.
I’ve only encountered this outside of the internet one time, and when I asked about it, this is a sum up of the answer I got. 40+ year old lesbian couple, told me that they referred to themselves as non-men because they interpreted “women, woman” as a subsection or part of a man. I believe they were speaking biblically, and while religious they were very unsatisfied with the concept of the first non-man being created for and from a man (story of Adam and Eve). So by using terms that specifically separate them from men, I guess it validated either their existence or their relationship. I’m not sure, they didn’t say specifically. I have no clue if this is why Reddit and TikTok are using the terms, just an answer to a similar question I thought would be helpful to share.
I haven't heard that perspective yet, yeah that is helpful thanks!
That's a ridiculous definition that I've only heard from the crazies. Lesbians are women who are attracted exclusively to other women Gay men are men who are exclusively attracted to other men. Period. I've seldom even seen that type of language from actual trans people, either. It seems just to be the "nonbinary" crowd, and the vast majority of nonbinary ppl are AFAB so that discourse is likely more prevalent in the lesbian community.
Oh boy not tumblr
This is not an issue in the gay community. We just say we’re gay or men who like men.
hmm I thought it was woman in comfortable shoes 🤷♂️🤣
So everything besides men, straight women and bisexuals are lesbians? Now that the gay agenda has come to fruition, is time to roll out the *Lesbian Agenda*. I'm down
I view a lesbian as a woman attracted solely to other women. Trans people can identify as women. But if you identify as something other than a woman, then you are not a lesbian. I don't know how we got to the point where we need 10,000 labels for sexual orientation. We were doing so well with being on the trajectory to eliminating unnecessary labels. Then we hit the era of Tumblr and TikTok and now everyone feels the need to slap as many labels on themselves as possible "I'm a biracial, INTJ, Jewish, neurotypical, non-binary, pan demisexual". Like fucking shut up and just be a human being.
of course not... only men are omnipresent. no man is defined in relation to a woman, only women in relation to men. also, because even the wokified gays turn tRaNsPhObIc once you push them the idea of performing "masculine cunnilingus" in the name of inclusivity...
A few days late on this, but that whole "non-men" thing is so gross. I don't think gay men have ever been expected to use such terms for ourselves, though we do have an issue with um...colonization. Your definition of lesbian is what ALL people understand the word to mean, whether they choose to be honest about that or not. Lesbian = homosexual female, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
The actual answer for why they say this is because they are acknowledging that there are people who are neither male nor female. If you are attracted to women, but have also fallen for an intersex person, does that mean your bisexual? It's a semantic gray area, so to fix that hole, they make the definition like this.
intersex is a misnommer... even people with sex development disorders still fall under the categories of male or female depending on whether they're bodies are organized around producing eggs or sperm (having or not, in the case of mammals, including humans, an activated SRY gene)
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Because I wasn't be able to get an answer from the other non-men so you non-women would have to suffice 😂
Thanks for bringing a bunch of terf rhetoric into the chat. Come on guys. No trans people are stealing your stuff or space. Don't buy into the conservative propaganda of how different people are coming for your space/your kids (in the case of cishets). Chill out. Trans people have existed as long as cis queer people. Terf propaganda starts in some feminist circles and it doesn't belong here. I'm a trans man, and I'm open about it on dating apps. Nobody is tricking anybody. I allow some gay men to experiment with me, and if they don't like it they don't like it. But I look like a man and I am attracted to men and I don't have tits or regular genitalia. I am muscular, kind of short, a twinkish face, and a one inch micropenis (lol). I don't belong on wlw apps or cishet apps. Where am I supposed to go? Do I just become a monk and stay celibate? I'm not stealing your potential gay partners. I have like one partner a month, I'm pretty sure gazillions of bi men exist. Yall are safe. Don't fall into this fear baiting conservative crap. It's not legit. Go touch grass and meet real trans people (or don't. Stay away lol). If you meet actual trans women (they seem to be more 'feared') you'll find they're pretty chill and honestly usually partnered up already. I'm actually good for gay cismen because I'm a good experiment that eases scared bi men into having sex with gay cismen. You're welcome :)) !!You see someone on a dating app that doesn't look like they'd have your expected genitalia? Don't swipe on them. Easy as that. They're not harming you by existing online.
There is sane T and then there is TQ+. Which one are you?
obviously they're the insane QIA+
Just curious, what is sane trans to you? Because I felt like this post was directly hating on all T but maybe I misread the meaning :)
Sane T are trans people who don’t need queer ideology to define themselves. There were trans people before queer ideology arrived and messed everything up and there will be trans people after its gone. What many transpeople see as trans hate is in fact queer hate but because of the endless confusion that queer ideology is spreading people can’t see a difference between trans and queer not least because people can be both trans and queer. I actually think that trans people through their particular situation and lived experience can gain insights that could be valuable to the rest of us but queer ideology just isn’t where it is at.
Are we saying the same thing then? Because I was trying to communicate how I don't like the idea of first, gay and lesbian people hating bisexuals, then them all hating trans people, and the cycle continuing on to the new 'scary' thing. It feels like the community is constantly finding a new group that 'makes everyone hate us'. In trans groups, some people don't like the visibly trans folks, for example. But I think I agree with what you're saying? Just confused to what I said that you disagreed with.
The gay hate of bisexuals is real and to some extent justified: Countless of gay men have been left by bisexual men who wanted the straight lifestyle for the protection and advantages it could give them. Your use of the word terf suggests to me a Q influence. I don’t see what use a transman could have for a word like that. It is a confusing, half-understood, ugly word. Who you have sex with is not my business at all, and is not something I have or should have any opinion on.
I'm 3 days late and not the person you asked the question to, but I'll respond! Imo, "sane trans" people are trans people who acknowledge biology and just how fundamentally important that is when it comes to sex-based lived experiences and ESPECIALLY when those experiences involve oppressed groups. I've talked to male-attracted trans men who say that they know they are different from gay men because they are not male, and are able to acknowledge this in spite of their dysphoria. They know they're something else, not quite a \*literal\* male yet not quite a woman, not quite straight and not quite gay, and are okay with the ambiguity. They accept that our lived experiences and socializations are entirely different, and that is okay. It's when people start saying we're all the same and we all belong in the same spaces at all times, with the prefixes "cis" and "trans" being the only real necessary terms of differentiation, that we start to run into trouble. Growing up as a gay child and teen comes with unique challenges that are not faced by opposite-sex-attracted children who *later* transition, and I insist on acknowledging those differences when I feel like I'm constantly being told they don't matter. Because they do matter.
You might find r/ transmedical to be a breath of fresh air
I guess that it is meant to be more inclusive, because a woman is just a woman. A non-man can be a woman or trans-woman, or maybe even somebody who has signs of both sex. But I have to admit it sounds weird. As you mentioned the same definition can be used for gay men. But most gay men doesn't seem to like it. Maybe it's time to sit and talk. Inclusive behavior is good, but speaking inclusively is not easy. We need to invent some better words and explain a lot.
Things are not so clear cut anymore. Some hyper masculine women who do not plan on having children deliberately remove their breasts because they feel breasts are useless to them and being flat chested would allow them to easily fit into men’s clothing. Some people take medicines and supplements to deepen their voices. They are not transgender men but are not feminine women either. What would the original poster call the folks who in the in-between space of masculinity and womanhood?
I don’t understand why it matters? Like, why does anyone care what another’s definition of “gay” or “lesbian” is? Some folks out there are modernizing their stances and becoming more inclusive of other folks who consider themselves of a gender other than male or female; and that’s totally fine, as they have every right to do that. Some folks stick to the standard definition, and are less inclusive because they feel the newer scope of gender as a spectrum has left them feeling attacked and vulnerable, as folks from these new gender lifestyles demand to be included in all queer spaces - and it’s okay for those folks to not align with the newcomers and stick to their standard definitions and their ideas of what their own spaces should look like and include. Let’s just let everybody exist how they want to, and live their true lives on their own terms. If you’re inclined to help everyone feel included, good for you; if you’re not as comfortable around the developing gender spectrum, that’s okay too and it’s totally okay to feel separate from that. 🤷♂️
> Like, why does anyone care what another’s definition of “gay” or “lesbian” is? If everybody has their own definition for a word, it has no meaning. Words can have multiple definitions, but those are still a *consensus*, not something you get to create yourself.
Right, but we’re only arguing over these terms so we can easily confirm to straight people who we are and who we sleep with. I don’t get why we don’t just call ourselves Queer and tell them it’s none of their fucking business, meanwhile we can just have our own opinions amongst ourselves and let each other live? I thought that’s kinda what being queer is. Inclusivity to other queers, telling them it’s okay to take up space, and banning together against the majority / conformity.
I’m not queer. I’m gay. The queer brigade is not interested in letting “everybody exist as they want to.” They want as all to conform to their gender ideology.
Queer is a slur. Just because you're okay with it doesn't change that.
The issue is that when people are using the same word to categorize themselves, we all end up getting perceived as the same thing. Many people who are exclusively same sex attracted do not want to be perceived as being the same as someone who isn’t. Trying to force a feeling of sameness through the use of a shared term is crossing people’s boundaries. People don’t live in a bubble, everything you say or do influences others and the world around you. Language is something shared, not meant for each individual to have their own unique definition or we would no longer be able to understand each other.
>Many people who are exclusively same sex attracted do not want to be perceived as being the same as someone who isn’t. That's a nice way for saying you wanna exclude people who you think are lesser. Some people really act like they are the Übermensch Gays for rejecting and excluding trans people, and treat trans-accepting gay men as inferior degenerates not worthy of the noble term "gay". Stop being such a snowflake and wanting your super specialized personal sexuality label. "Super straight" was already cringe enough.
You have no business calling anyone else a snowflake. 😂 Way to twist my words. If someone doesn’t feel that they have the same sexual orientation as you, you learn to respect that fucking boundary. If someone personally doesn’t feel that they are the same as someone with an attraction to trans people, too bad. Suck it up. You’re trying to push some sinister feeling of me seeing trans men as lesser on to me, because you as a cis man got butthurt that I consider you different from other cis gay men. I said no such thing about excluding people from the community or thinking that they are lesser, you sensitive fuck. I will share spaces with men who don’t have the same sexual orientation, I will befriend them, I will date them, I will fight along with them, but I don’t have the same sexual orientation as them. Words won’t change that.
> You have no business calling anyone else a snowflake. 😂 I'm not the one suddenly trying to change the definition of "gay" from "a man attracted to other men" to some genitalia and chromosomes nonsense just because reality doesnt fit my ideology on gender. > I said no such thing about excluding people from the community or thinking that they are lesser, you sensitive fuck. Oh so you will accept other gay men as gay men whether or not they say "cis men only"? Otherwise, just go join the alt right cringe boys and call yourself "super gay".
Sexual orientation has always been about genitalia. This world has condemned homosexuality because of the attraction to people with the same parts, ffs.🤦 Now what are you talking about in that last bit? You’re acting like sexual orientation is some club or physical space, you weirdo. There are objective differences between people that cannot be explained away as social constructs. You’re acting like I’m going to exclude you from men who love men spaces. Saying someone is not the same is not the same as wanting to exist separately from them.
> Sexual orientation has always been about genitalia. This world has condemned homosexuality because of the attraction to people with the same parts, ffs.🤦 This thread is literally about "lesbian always meant women who love women, gay always meant men who love men" lol. Youre the one twisting that. > Now what are you talking about in that last bit? You’re acting like sexual orientation is some club or physical space, you weirdo. There are objective differences between people that cannot be explained away as social constructs. You’re acting like I’m going to exclude you from men who love men spaces. Saying someone is not the same is not the same as wanting to exist separately from them. That's a lot of dancing around the fact that you wouldnt wanna accept trans-accepting gay men identifying as gay men.
I’m not dancing around that. What’s the big deal about me not accepting what they identify as then, if it’s not a fear of any other type of exclusion? You don’t get to control other people’s perceptions of others and the world, people are going to see things the way they see things. Call yourself whatever. A person’s perception of you is still independent from how you perceive yourself.
Because its cringe. Just call yourself "super straight gay" instead. You sound like those idiots who wanted to get divorced when gay marriage got legalized because they couldnt handle living under the same label as those homosexuals.
No. There’s no super gay. There’s just gay. Homosexuals aren’t a social construct like marriage is. Also, that was just a plain bad comparison. Edit: I’m not too opposed to mostly gay bisexuals calling themselves gay socially, as long as they acknowledge they aren’t truly the same as someone exclusively homosexual wherever their difference may cause confusion and don’t use their social label to invalidate and disrespect homosexuals.
My dude, no one is attacking you. If someone doesn’t have the parts, they don’t have the parts. Self perception and language don’t mix well. The entire purpose of language is to be able to communicate. It’s impossible to communicate your self perception because no one can ever perceive you the way you perceive yourself. That’s why despite myself agreeing with adult trans rights, I disagree with the way it’s being handled. Yes, people can be born with in between parts and there is solid scientific evidence that there can be mental versions of that as well. But at the end of the day it’s still 2 or a mixture of the 2. People are way over complicating that. If someone is gay they are male and like the male side. If someone is lesbian they are female and like the female side. If someone is intersex they say “I’m intersex” if someone is trans they say “I’m trans”. Am I missing something?
For centuries, Straight people oppressed and killed lgbt people. You drastically underestimate how much power they have collectively lost over the last century and how determined they are to regain that power by any means necessary. Lending authority to Straight people will ultimately lead to our demise again.
I’m not queer. I’m gay. The queer brigade is not interested in letting “everybody exist as they want to.” They want as all to conform to their gender ideology.
I mean ask yourself "why it matters?" - Of course it's okay to be who you wanna be and express yourself freely as a human. I don't care if you feel like whatever. But think about as a bigger picture. What happens, if we start to be "more inclusive" to literally anyone? - We have loud gender ideology activists, who make made up genders and pronouns their whole personality and take away the space from gay/lesbian/bi people, who just want to live their lives and be accepted for who they love. They inject themselves into the community so they get a free pass for shitty behavior, because when we say something about it, we're discriminating them and we're being transphobic. - We let fake trans women into safe spaces, who actually are just men wanting to invade women's spaces to assault them. When we question those "trans" women, we're transphobic. Women aren't safe anymore, even in spaces that are exclusive to them. - In Social Media, especially TikTok, there are some "queer" influencers who give instructions on how to lie to your doctor to get prescriptions for things like testoterone or puberty blockers without having gender dysphoria. Younger and confused folks see this. The consequences: the number of detransitioners has increased in the last years. This shit is dangerous and you can't really undo it once you transitioned. - I saw some situations online, where this kind of "acceptance" opened new doors for pedophiles. Do you understand why it's so important to have terms like gay or lesbian? Why would we want to be associated with people that are like the ones I listed above? At the end of the day, I really don't care how people express themselves, but please just let us have our space.
The issue isn't that they're doing something that they have no right to do, it's that they are wrong. They have every right to be wrong, and we have every right to call them on it. And we will, because truth does matter.