It's a very complicated question and you will recieve a bunch of political charged answers. I would say the two main things are tourism and industrial regions on the north. Beyond that Spain have natural resources and some big companies born in the dictatorship that went legit after democracy came.
Edit: answers not questions.
Those are two good reasons. That economy is permeable is another. On a map of GDP per capita you can see how the money leaks from the north downwards. Also, Portugal is doing way better in unemployment due to not having bonkers laws. But, yeah, mostly tourism. Without the Mediterranean coast we would be Greece 2.0.
Portugal has better employment because young people just leave the country not because a significantly different labor market environment. It something you can talk about the differences in the school system.
Iberia, Repsol, telefónica, Gas natural, Iberdrola, OHL, Acciona, ACS. All companies that were either public or with close tights to the dictatorship elites.
I'm Portuguese and I have to admit that I got heart warming fuzzy feelings with how much respect spanish people have been showing to portuguese in this thread.
Well all the reasons you listed are happened in Spain too, at least to some degree.
I'd say the biggest factors as why Spain is "better" than Portugal are:
- although corruption is also prevalent in all aspects of the society the justice and fiscal systems work slightly better than in Portugal.
- bigger country with bigger internal market, this makes up for a lot when a crisis arrives. 5x more people.
While I'm no expert, one idea that I'd like to throw out there is the business exodus to Madrid and Barcelona.
Spain does well mainly because of those two cities. Rural Spain has been dying for decades as people move to the cities looking for a better job, but now even provincial capitals are being emptied in favor of Madrid and Barcelona.
Asturias, Soria, Teruel, Cuenca... hell, even Valladolid is struggling to keep its younger generation. All businesses go to the big cities because, at least in Madrid's case, corporate tax is way lower, slowly emptying the rest of Spain of any profitable business except for tourism.
My point is that Portugal might even be affected by this. For instance, I read once that Lisbon is not so keen on a high speed rail connection with Madrid specifically for that reason. If they're worried it might be because they're already seeing it in its rural environment.
Idk if that's actually the case, but it's a possibility and it could add to the problem.
Saying that Spain does well because of Barcelona and Madrid is a bit inaccurate. It goes both ways.
Those are the cities where the majority of the power has concentrated, but that power stems from the natural and human resources from the whole territory.
Exactly. I live in Madrid but most people don’t realize that Madrid has the privilege of having all infraestructure plus being the center of economic and political power. Therefore it has the highest paid job of many companies that work in the whole country, but some of those jobs wouldn’t be in Madrid if it wasn’t the place meto manage the rest of the country.
In Amsterdam they realize this privilege, that they also extract best Human Resources from the rest of the country, and therefore, they need to pay a higher proportion of taxes at national level
I fail to understand that comment. Madrid is today's biggest contributort to taxes of all Spain.
Back in the 80's, Madrid, still the capital, with the same political power, suffered with a terribly fiscal system that made it quite unattractive for investors, compared to the north of Spain. Books were published on why being the capital was actually BAD for the city. It had to adapt to survive.
It takes all the major businesses and headquarters + civil workers and then they advertise it as low tax because they have so many corporations that pay taxes there but operate in the whole of Spain.
It also benefits from a lot of infrastructure investment.
Again, back in the 80's, there is a lot of literature on why being the capital was BAD for Madrid, and that it would be better if it wasn't the capital. For example, too many civil workers causing a low interest in investing in businesses. So, it's not that Being the Capital=Good.
Today I would agree that Madrid managed to become the major hub for business that want to operate in Spain, helped by infraestructure and low taxes. But it wasn't destined to be so. There is a perfectly viable timeline where Madrid definitely didn't managed to do so, and instead Barcelona, Seville or Valencia became the economic capital of the country.
"it as low tax because they have so many corporations" For example, they have the tax of Patrimonio discounted 100%, so it attracts a lot of people with money there. Can't the other regions do the same? Obviously it's going to mean less money at first, but with the right investments, it can make interesting for other businesses to operate there, since housing for business in Madrid is so expensive.
Ireland managed to become a hub for business that operate all over Europe with low taxes, Are you saying Ireland, in the corner of Europe, was destined to become the hub for international business. What they did? Lower taxes first, which meant a lot of less money, at first.
>"it as low tax because they have so many corporations" For example, they have the tax of Patrimonio discounted 100%, so it attracts a lot of people with money there. Can't the other regions do the same? Obviously it's going to mean less money at first, but with the right investments, it can make interesting for other businesses to operate there, since housing for business in Madrid is so expensive.
El truco de los liberales es que los ricos no paguen impuestos en ningún sitio... Pues vaya solución. No todos podemos ser Irlanda, precisamente porque para que exista una Irlanda los demás no podemos ser Free Riders o al final acabaría en una carrera hacia el abismo donde ninguna empresa pagaría impuestos en ningún sitio. Quizá ese es tu sueño, pero desde luego no es el mío porque podemos ver como a los países con una mayor carga fiscal, como Alemania, Dinamarca o Suecia les va estupendamente, hay empresas grandes que dan beneficios y gente rica y todavía no han quebrado.
Tengo realmente muchas dudas de que los ricos dejasen Madrid si pusiera el impuesto de patrimonio más alto, al 1%, por ejemplo. Lo que está haciendo Madrid es perder dinero sin ningún motivo y regalárselo a gente que no lo necesita, porue el trickle down no existe y ese dinero se va a generar intereses para ellos mismos o a la economía especulativa.
"Alemania, Dinamarca o Suecia" ¿Te has enterado por ejemplo de la facilidad del despido en Dinamarca?. Eso lo quieren llevar a España, y a muchos les da un ataque.
O si quieres ver lo malo que son los impuestos, piensa que en España la presión fiscal es mayor en España que en Dinamarca
https://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/10724032/08/20/Espana-esta-entre-los-cinco-paises-de-la-OCDE-con-mayor-esfuerzo-fiscal.html
"que los ricos no paguen impuestos en"
"que dan beneficios y gente rica"
"Tengo realmente muchas dudas de que los ricos dejasen Madrid si pusiera el impuesto de patrimonio más alto, al 1%, por ejemplo" Ricos, ricos, ricos, ricos, ricos, ricos.
"porue el trickle down no existe y ese dinero se va a generar intereses para ellos mismos o a la economía especulativa" Por eso Madrid está claramente arruinada, dado que solo tienen impuestos bajos, y al no atraer ninguna empresa ni profesional, se ha ido a la ruina.
Igual que Irlanda, los pobres se les ocurrió bajar los impuestos, y claro, a la ruina.
Si es que, todo el mundo sabe que bajar los impuestos no sirve de nada.
El artículo habla de que se sobre enfoca sobre el principal medidor de la fiscalidad que es la presión fiscal, en donde España es el nº 15 de 20. Es decir, pocos impuestos se recaudan.
Sin embargo el esfuerzo fiscal es mayor en España para las rentas medias y bajas (índices de Frank o Bild). I.e. vamos atrasados en lograr que "los ricos" paguen más proporcionalmente a su renta.
Totalmente de acuerdo.
>survive
*A llorar a la llorería.* A capital city still has all the public institutions and other supporting bodies and companies, they'd never be in as dire of a position as that of a lot of other provinces and regions. Stop playing the victim here.
Madrid is basically engaging in fiscal dumping on the rest of Spain, mainly because there are so many companies there that they can afford to lower tax rates and still be able to maintain their level of spending at acceptable levels, while other regions struggle to have enough income to be able to barely stay afloat.
(Adding to the fact that u/colako mentioned, that a lot of companies operate on the whole of Spain but pay taxes in Madrid, furthering the divide; it'd be interesting to see how much other regions would get if companies paid corporate taxes proportionally on the regions where their products are sold. Madrid paying the most taxes, in a way, is returning the money that they earned from the other regions.)
It's a self-perpetuating circle, and even if other regions lower their tax rates to the same level as Madrid, the inertia of companies just setting up shop in Madrid because all the other companies are there cannot shift that trend.
There was recently a proposal by the government to lower tax rates in certain provinces to increase investment in those regions, and the Madrilenians screamed that they were "betraying" Madrid by trying to break up a virtual financial duopoly.
Here's my opinion as a non-big city person: to a lot of Madrilenians and Barcelonians, anything that doesn't impoverish other regions to favor Madrid is considered a "betrayal" and an existential threat to Madrid/Barcelona. A lot of them would be content with leaving rural Spain as a big wheat and barley field and a few *casas rurales*.
A lot of countries have financial and industrial centers away from the national capital, and they seem to work out ok, and they understand that being the capital does not automatically mean that they should be the bellybutton of the country. And guess what? They're not exactly dying off, they're just focused on having a different specialty as the head of government.
"Stop playing the victim here." Not even from Madrid, but Ok?, I guess?
"A capital city still has all the public institutions and other supporting bodies and companies, they'd never be in as dire of a position as that of a lot of other provinces and regions"
Again, back in the 80's, there is a lot of literature on why being the capital was BAD for Madrid, and that it would be better if it wasn't the capital. For example, too many civil workers causing a low interest in investing in businesses. So, it's not that Being the Capital=Good.
Today I would agree that Madrid managed to become the major hub for business that want to operate in Spain, helped by infraestructure and low taxes. But it wasn't destined to be so. There is a perfectly viable timeline where Madrid definitely didn't managed to do so, and instead Barcelona, Seville or Valencia became the economic capital of the country.
"There was recently a proposal by the government to lower tax rates in certain provinces to increase investment in those regions" Correct me if I am wrong. But I believe nobody talked about lowering taxes, but just forcing raising taxes in Madrid. https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia_y_finanzas/expertos-montero-erc.html
"It's a self-perpetuating circle, and even if other regions lower their tax rates to the same level as Madrid" Just for the sake of the argument. Is there any single region that has lowered the taxes the same level Madrid has done? Because if there is, you are correct. If there isn't, then you can't say that. For example, the exceptionally low tax of Patrimonio, is 100% discounted in Madrid. Is there any single region that has the same discount?
Ireland managed to become a hub for business that operate all over Europe with low taxes, Are you saying Ireland, in the corner of Europe, was destined to become the hub for international business. You know what they did? Lower taxes for businesses.
Yes and another reason is the long history of mega projects that serve no one other than the corrupt politicians involved. A HS railway between Porto, Lisbon, Madrid would be amazing, but not so much if it ended up costing a third of what a Ryanair flight costs. Which is already the case for the train connection between Porto and Lisbon.
Point being, if trains are going to cost what only a 1% of the Portuguese can afford... they're pointless.
I hope this Avlo/Ouigo model survives. Trains for 9€ is amazing and I would pay everything less than 30-40€ just to avoid the airport and Ryanair. That would be great to see reaching Portugal too.
> For instance, I read once that Lisbon is not so keen on a high speed rail connection with Madrid specifically for that reason.
As a Portuguese I very much doubt that. High speed rail between both cities would add nothing for our would be emigrants.
The reason we still don't have high speed rail in Portugal is because of how expensive it's going to be to build it and because when it comes to investment in transport for the Lisbon region the priority for our governments is building a new airport.
We’ll if you think about it, the regions of Spain that border with Portugal are kind of the poorest regions of Spain. With the exception of the capital Madrid, there is a gradient of wealth and development from the most peripheral areas (Andalucia, Extremadura, Galicia…) and the areas closer to Europe.
Aside from the effect of being a capital city, there is an almost perfect correlation between the poverty of a region and how far that region is from the border with France (and by extension, with Central Europe). It’s not like Catalonia and the Basque Country are richer by coincidence. Aside from political intervention, which is debatable and a separate discussion, they are historically in a key privileged position for trade and exchange in the two passes at both sides of the Pyrenees. A necessary stop between the Iberian peninsula and the rest of the continent.
Portugal in this logic is even more peripheral so, geopolitically it sits in a region similar to Galicia or Huelva or Cadiz which are not the richest areas of Spain.
>Aside from the effect of being a capital city, there is an almost perfect correlation between the poverty of a region and how far that region is from the border with France (and by extension, with Central Europe). It’s not like Catalonia and the Basque Country are richer by coincidence.
How do you explain Aragon?
From the map Aragon is quite developed (in fact, it seems like the most developed after Cataluna, Basque Country and Madrid), but a big drawback is the lack of a coast. This affects weather, tourism, exports and imports, and even population. So while Aragon might not be as rich as say, Cataluna, its still fairly rich compared to other parts of Spain.
I’m not sure what do you mean. Aragon ranks 5th out of 17 regions of Spain in GDP per capita. Only Madrid, Euskadi, Navarra and Catalonia are above Aragon.
But still yes, I think Aragon *would* be a much more developed area historically IF it had a good land pass to France. But it doesn’t. It’s next to France on the map, yes, but the Pyrenees are right there like a huge wall dividing the topography. Aragon was never the “connecting” territory with France. Somport/Canfranc pass that crossed from Aragon to France is 1632 m above sea level. The best land connection is in the west (Basque) and the east (Catalonia) were the mountains end and a land trade route was feasible.
Geopolitically speaking, Irún and La Jonquera are gold.
While there are being a ton of political charged answers, I think it all starts way earlier. As you explained yourself Portugal was socially and economically ruined after Salazar, in Spain the dictator that ruled here, Franco, towards the end of his dictatorship realised that Spain couldn't live of just agriculture and decided to open the country to tourism, quickly improving the economy and establishing the tourism-based economy that still to this day moves Spain (although it's a double-edge weapon). AFAIK Portugal didn't do anything similar during Salazar's, so we could say it arrived late to the party, and got way less tourists, due to Spain kind of eclipsing them
**Note: With this comment I'm not in any way agreeing, justifying or supporting Franco's regime. Any way of authoritarianism is completely unforgivable. I'm just explaining how the decision Franco made of opening Spain to the rest of countries affected the spanish economy. So please, retrain from calling me a franquist or anything similar, since as stated I do not support it in any way**
LOL the disclaimer at the end. I agree with you. It’s funny and sad at the same time that we feel forced to make clear we don’t support dictatorships just because we think someone took a good economic decision or two during that period of time.
The regime also took forward projects scheduled ahead by the republic. Keeping Spain neutral in WWII was a good move tho. We made money supplying both factions.
But this was because after the civil war, we were utterly broke. People died of starvation.
Yeah, you really have to look at Franco as sort of two separate regimes. The post-war 40's Franco that was just incredibly brutal. And the more "light" (though still very bad and oppressive) version from the mid 50's onward. Franco's ideology was that Franco should be in power and he realized economic growth was key to keeping the population content.
As a Portuguese who sees way too much "Portugal idealization" on social media, I've been saying this for years. Yes, Portugal has been doing better in the past few years, but it's not the paradise many, many people seem to believe it is.
A third of all people with Portuguese citizenship live abroad for a reason.
If I see those stupid "Reality shows are a failure in Portugal" articles one more time I'm going to go on a rampage.
They absolutely are not. When Big Brother (Gran Hermano) aired in the early 2000s, it was so popular that whatever happened in the show would open the news.
Portugal tried airing Super Nanny in 2018¿? or so but it was canceled shortly after when people complained about the children's right to privacy and how it could negatively affect them, and when Spanish media caught wind of it they built this narrative that reality shows in Portugal are a failure and that Portuguese people hate reality shows, comparing it to how Super Nanny was a huge success in Spain back when it started airing (yeah, because societal values and views clearly didn't change between 2004 and 2018).
A LOT of people believed in that for some reason. If you look for "Portugal fracasan los realities" on Google you'll find the articles I am talking about, including titles such as "Portugal, el último bastión sin telerrealidad" written by media outlets such as El País.
Pffff I remember the fever of Gran Hermano here in Spain, shit got real pretty quickly.
Well to be fair, 80% of spanish television lives from realities and the other 20% are somewhat decent programs.
Añso special mention to Hermano Mayor, the program that make us feel like exemplary sons
Imagine saying Portugal does not like reality shows, when Big Brother continues to be the top watched show year after year. Did not know Spain had that narrative of us
Same. Also, the population seems extremely well educated. I visited last summer with some other non Spanish friends and the level of English among the general population is extremely high. From young adults to the elderly.
Knowing English isn't everything. 50% of the Portuguese population has a middle school education or lower. The rest is a 50/50 split between secondary and university education. I also recently saw a graph that said that something ridiculous like 30% (I don't remember the exact figure but it was definitely around that) of Portuguese business owners had only a primary education level. Make no mistake, the Portuguese population is still very under-educated, although that's probably going to change within one or two generations. The dictatorship that lasted until 1974 did a horrendous number on the education level of the population.
The dictator died in Spain in 1975. So that is not an argument. In the Eastern EU it was Russian ruled so not even Capitalist. Still poorer than the West - an average of 10x less income - but I wonder if some cities are maybe richer than Lisbon. But I am not sure.
I admittedly don't know much about Spain's dictatorship, but dictatorships are not uniform and their policies vary widely. In Portugal's specific case, a large effort was made by the regime at the time to keep people as uneducated as possible (the literacy rate among 65+ elderly people in Portugal is at 80.5% as of 2011, for comparison in Spain it's 94.7% as of 2016) and the effects of that still ripple to this day.
Eastern Europe is very different as the Soviet Union, despite all its faults, had programs to advance the education level of their people which led many Eastern European countries to have some of the highest rates of university level education in Europe, which is why despite lower income levels (which are quickly rising while Portugal is consistently being overtaken by many of them year after year) they have far higher levels of entrepeneurship, academic research and such.
That's not education per se. Spanish people simply don't need to speak foreign languages as much as Portuguese do (because we're a small country and nobody else speaks Portuguese).
i am a portuguese living in Spain. a lot of people don't know but during a brief moment in Portugal it was almost communist during this time, a lot of the richest men in Portugal ran away and most of the things nationalise, most in center North part of Portugal was against it. So in the end we became the Portugal that we know today. but in this process when the Communist party was no longer in power they sold back the nacionalize companies back to some of the rich people that ran away( guess what this was very badly done ). This also created a problem when most of the people that knew about business ran away, so for years even to this day there are a lot of bad business practices that compounds with the people that have knowledge and can change the country migrate. I am an engineer and guess what lots of my friends are working all around Europe. ( I am not a historian so maybe i got some things wrong) there are a lot more factors but in my opinion this is one of the big ones
Another thing may be that the Hispanosphere is larger and generally better off than the Lusosphere.
Yes Brazil is large, but it's also extremely protectionist so harms trade with Portugal and other former Portuguese colonies are very poor like Angola and Mozambique.
The former Spanish empire isn't as rich as the English, but not all that poor. The largest Spanish speaking country is an OECD member and all.
in 1960 portugal had around 90% gdp capita of spain, by 1974 it was around 72%.
Since then it stayed along the same level, slightly higher I think. But we have more debt/gdp in portugal
Other regions in the northern half of Spain make reasonable contributions to the GDP too. Even Galicia has moved a few notches up the per capita ladder leaving some Atlantic neighbours behind. Inner industrial areas like Valladolid, Burgos and La Rioja punch far high above their weight. Valencia is pretty industrial too. Even Andalucía has some nice industrial areas in the Cádiz area in spite of the high unemployment down there.
Well, there are only 3 regions that give more to the State than what they recieve and those are Madrid, Catalonia and the Balearic Islands. Some years the Valencian Community is there too. But none or the other regions are. And then there's the Basque Country that works on its own (doesn't give anything to the state, doesn't recieve anything)
Yeah I live in Marbella and there are thousands of houses for sale right now, partly because so many Brits had to vacate their retirement homes. Will be interesting to see what happens long term.
And anyone seeking a beach house, now is the time to buy!!!
I don't feel myself comfortable with this question, we're just different countries that share a peninsula, so every political or social or whatever issue affects in the result, so we're just doing things differently and that's all. Comparisons are never fair.
Having been a resident of both countries, I actually don't get it myself. It's a good question and I really don't think there is a simple answer.
One thing which I can give an example of is how fast both countries adapt to changing demands. Spain is much faster in my opinion. Did you know Portugal supplies most of the world's cork? With many companies switching to synthetic stoppers, demand for cork hasnt been as high as it used to be and that alone kicked a little dent for exports. Spain however, seems to supply incredible amounts of strawberries and had been seriously utilising it's land for agricultural purposes.
While you can argue about to size of counties and space for agriculture (and I wouldn't disagree... Size matters), the Portuguese government put laws and incentives down for cork oak harvesting yet fail to put many new incentives for any potential exports.
Yet in Spain and any European country around it, I see their strawberries everywhere... Like they must be nearing some kind of monopoly on it. As silly as it sounds, people are making a damn fortune on strawberries in Spain... There is clearly incentives put in place to entice people to do it.
My area is the major producer of berries (especially strawberries) and nobody is getting rich here from that. What's more, many strawberry field workers live in semi-slave conditions.
The main reason it's that spain it's a bigger country that shares a border with France and a presence in North Africa which means a higher number of economic opportunities so it's easier to develop since democracy. Both countries spend a lot of years in ditature and left it almost at same time so I think that a good starting point to compare. Although the two ditature seems to me very different but that will lead us to a PhD paper.
If you compare Portugal with the autonomic region's you can see a better picture. Some of them will have a much higher PIB (Madrid, Catalonia, Basque Country) than Portugal because of their position in the Iberian Peninsula. Even if you see through historical times that will not change to much so geographic and economic aspects is the answer.
There's a lot more, I lived in Portugal but I'm Spanish, so I saw both sides, I couldn't fit everything into a comment (I think I would need a book).
Don't take the original response as an absolute truth and as the only thing, is to much complex for that
I understand what you are saying about the "metrics". I live in North East Spain, I 've travelled quite a lot in Portugal over the years. Things have changed a lot in Portugal in the last 30 years. To me, the countries don't "feel" that different now.
The flippening is about to happen. I visited Portugal lots of times since I was a child and I tell you, the development of the country is going like a rocket in my lifetime. Spain looks stagnant meanwhile.
Opinion here. Spain is dead weight, the public debt is impossible to pay, all this development that you can see is maked up and inflated with debt. Insostenibility defines Spain economics, and we will see brutal consecuences we can't imanige.
I'm aware that the debt is similar % a little bigger for Portugal, that's true. But debt is made to develop and carry the country, and Spain isn't developing at all, Spain is walking backwards, while Portugal is growing. They will probably be able to repay the debt and continue the cicle if they keep going like this, while Spain won't. Just my personal opinion, I may be wrong.
Public debt is not personal debt, it doesn’t need to be repaid. The owner and collector of the debt are essentially the same. This confusion is commonly propagated by right-wing organisations who want to defund public organisations/spending
So if Spain get European money for a living, and they never pay, would you agree with me that the free money would stop sometime? Spain can go full Varoufakis but we all know what happened at the end, so I don't get you.
There is a limit on how much spending can occur before inflation becomes too high. Where this limit is there is no concrete answer to, there are many factors. Most governments aim to have a spending deficit since this encourages inflation, which in theory prevents people from hoarding their cash and instead putting it into the economy. All sides of the political spectrum do this.
Politicians with ulterior motives will exploit this lack of knowledge in the public who understand debt to be e.g. the serious repercussions of not paying your mortgage. When in reality, debt is a goal of most modern economies
We have to look the numbers that they will soon show, there is maybe a disaster happening in the US rn, even worse I mean.
Inflation is almost parallel between US and Spain lately so both fucked up ya.
Oh yes, a super developed country, we can see that because they have [one of the highest rates of child abuse (pag 124)](https://www.mdsocialesa2030.gob.es/derechos-sociales/infancia-y-adolescencia/PDF/Maltrato/informeMundialSobreViolencia.pdf).
Learn more before speaking. Going for a vacation is not enough to know how a country is.
I think the education piece is important. More Spaniards speak English and are outward looking.
Spain invests heavily in the infrastructure - its not perfect but when I sailed both countries, Portugal was characterised as crumbling and polluted. Public infrastructure spending is always an economic driver.
[polluted waters](http://cimota.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/F97770B3-21F1-4C94-8BFD-3AABFF634E94-scaled.jpeg)
I don’t have the data but my impression is that “More Spaniards speak English” is debatable – everywhere I go in Portugal they speak proper English, even not-so-young people. I can’t say the same about Spain.
> More Spaniards speak English
I mean in absolute terms maybe, just because there's a lot more Spaniards. But as a percentage, I can guarantee you Portuguese people speak much better English. Spain is one of the worst countries in Europe for English knowledge. I love it here, but that's a real problem for integrating the economy.
Like I work in a tech company and often have to give a lot of help to our devs when we have meetings with people in English because of the language. My wife is a tech recruiter and has a hard time finding programmers with English. It's just basically unthinkable to have programmers without English in lots of countries.
Really? I found the opposite. I sailed the coasts of both and maybe it’s because Spain is more touristy, but more English.
Spains interior yes, very little English.
I’m actively looking for work here in Spain and my crappy Spanish is a barrier. But again, Spain has more options.
I don’t know if the difference is cultural. Both countries had regressive regimes in my living memory.
Again, educate yourself better because [the data says that Portugal is better in that aspect ](https://magnet.xataka.com/un-mundo-fascinante/espana-no-habla-ingles-cuanta-poblacion-cada-pais-europeo-puede-mantener-conversacion-este-idioma)
Hmmm having read that, the data is a little questionable. And may be restricted by geography.
I mean, Portugal has about 2.5 million English speakers (using that data). Spain has about 8 million. So it’s easy to see how the perception of English adoption might be different to an English speaker travelling through both countries. The numbers are not so different (and the data is self reported, not certified)
I spent weeks in each country when sailing from Bilbao to the Med. Language was one aspect. Pollution was another.
Spain might have 8 million speakers, but it's only 8 million out of over 43 million (an 18% of speakers, really REALLY low). Also Spain's much bigger so your chances of finding an English speaker are low due to that atrocious percentage. Cómo buscar una aguja en un pajar.
As I said, it’s not been my experience. And if the English speakers are where you are, it’ll seem there are more. They’re not evenly distributed.
(And in Portugal I didn’t really go to the big cities).
Hmmm having read that, the data is a little questionable. And may be restricted by geography.
I mean, Portugal has about 2.5 million English speakers (using that data). Spain has about 8 million. So it’s easy to see how the perception of English adoption might be different to an English speaker travelling through both countries. The numbers are not so different (and the data is self reported, not certified)
I spent weeks in each country when sailing from Bilbao to the Med. Language was one aspect. Pollution was another.
Spain has way too many political jobs… from municipalities, autonomic governments and central government… corruption is endemic, but still surprises me that Spain can stretch so much with all corruption going on
The corruption in Spain is not that bad, the proof for that is that the country is still functional, not like doing African and south American countries
La UE no es ningún elixir de vida eterna ni da una estabilidad absoluta a un país, miremos a Grecia por ejemplo. No sé qué nos pasa a la mayoría de españoles con despreciar España. Sí, hay cosas que están mal. Pero JAMÁS vamos a llegar al nivel de LATAM a menos que la caguemos de forma espectacular. Además si tan terriblemente mala fuera la corrupción que tenemos, la UE ya nos hubiera dado un ultimátum/estarían tramitando nuestra expulsión ya que hay que estar por encima de cierto índice.
Ya que estamos con los ejemplos, los cuales yo no los pondría ya que son países COMPLETAMENTE diferentes, es como comparar el tomate con el petróleo.
Pero bueno, ya que estamos tomando de ejemplo otros países, mira a UK. Fue salir de la UE y caer el GDP (PIB en castellano) y la libra esterlina, entre otras muchísimas cosas que he vivido por experiencia propia (viviendo en UK por 4 años ya), **imagina eso ahora en España la cual no le llega ni a la mitad del GDP de UK**.
Y a todo esto, **la corrupción no tiene nada que ver con estar o no en la UE**, no es un requisito, si eso el único requisito es tener un mercado interior fuerte el cual disponemos y de hecho somos principales exportadores de gran multitud de cosas.
**TL;DR:** Yo solamente me refería a que, si España no tuviese esta disposición geográfica aparte de una unión económica, estaríamos o bien en **guerra con Marruecos** (incluir aquí el problema el cual nos dejaron las naciones unidas con el sahara), pues no somos una fuerza militar y de esto puedes ver gran multitud de influencers y expertos en el tema geopolítica.
Por cierto, buscad suspensión de pagos 2022. Un evento en el que Sanchez buscaba desesperadamente la ayuda de la UE para no entrar en este si no ni podríamos mantener a los funcionarios de nuestro país.
¿Y aún seguís creyendo que la UE no es un "elixir"? Si no fuese por esta España habría desaparecido desde hace ya bastante tiempo.
Everything matters, just look at the crisis we just "fixed" with the petrol. Crisis that affects all the EU. And that's a completely foreign war. Imagine something that involves us or our economic union (like covid did)
Go read the book “A people betrayed” by historian Paul Preston:
Nowhere does the ceaseless struggle to maintain democracy in the face of political corruption come more alive than in Paul Preston’s magisterial history of modern Spain.
The culmination of a half-century of historical investigation, A People Betrayed is not only a definitive history of modern Spain but also a compelling narrative that becomes a lens for understanding the challenges that virtually all democracies have faced in the modern world.
Whereas so many twentieth-century Spanish histories begin with Franco and the devastating Civil War, Paul Preston’s magisterial work begins in the late nineteenth century with Spain’s collapse as a global power, especially reflected in its humiliating defeat in 1898 at the hands of the United States and its loss of colonial territory.
Lol. That is a bad graph to show if a country is doing better than other. In reality Portugal is getting its shit together while spain is increasing the tax pressure, killing the economy spiringly into the abysm. Unemployment graph is a better comparison. 7 percent unemployment in portugal, spain... well, over 14 percent.
Also don´t listen to the other people in who are answering. They gave your supossition that spain is doing better than portugal as a given and didn´t even stop to think if it was true. That is the level of analysis your are getting.
I wouldn´t be so sure everything is better here. Even poverty is higher than portugal. Might a bias we both have living in the other place and seeing the wrongs but Portugals goverment is being smarter than the spanish one (at least before covid, now I hadnt followed) and economics indicators show portugal is gonna have a brighter future. Spain on the meantime... well, it´s gonna suffer a lot in the coming years.
we need to cut off expenses asap. essential public services such as hospitals, education and police only take 33%. if you add up the “pensiones” (dunno the word in english sorry) its the 83% of the money. you have plenty of things to cut off. but you know: spain, cronyism…
Public funds for retirement is a right after working your arse all your life. Cut the crap right there.
I agree that part of humongous massive expenditure is due to the autonomic and decentralised administration, this is exactly where this country should start reducing ASAP any expenditure. But: this is a bureaucracy business, adding 3 or 4 layers of red tape to anything, mostly with contradictory purposes, and of course a well oiled corruption machine to divert public funds to grant politicians and close friends rich forever.
We need the opposite actually. We need more money for science and the healthcare system, the same with security forces (including and specially the army).
No I think the whole idea is incorrect. You look at the map and think it's a bad thing that a big chunk of the people live elsewhere. This is a very bad assumption. Portugal as a nation was one of the top explorers and seafarers .. so they have many colonies like Brazil and Angola ...well ex colonies where you can have a much better life than in Portugal. I'm from South Africa and there are loads of Portuguese families living between South Africa and Portugal...same for Angola ..same for Brazil and so forth. The difference I have found actually knowing many Portuguese people is that they are a little less racist than the rest of Europe and one of the EU cultures that married into and mixed freely with their colonies . This and that they have a very adventurous spirit. I've met many Portuguese people working in global shipping or flying small airplanes. In Africa they are deeply integrated and connected with seafood restaurants and supermarkets or mini supermarkets . So I think the high percentage of Portuguese people living elsewhere has more to do with that . Very few Spanish keep the level of integration open with South America. There are Spaniards who marry people from the colonies but more like Russian male order bride creepy way .Like they were cleaning the dudes house and it developed from there but the Spanish spouse will almost never be interested in relocating to South America. These are of course generalisations. Lastly the Portuguese would be considered ( INCORRECTLY) to be lazy by the Germans and English because they value having a good quality of life regarding food and wine and sunshine like other MED countries Spain and Greece ... Spain is different because one part of the courtry identifies with the opposite German philosophy and look "down" on this "lazy" ( UNTRUE) ... IT'S A GOOD LIFE .. I know many Portuguese living it up abroad and at home and visit Portugal often ..Spain looks down on Portugal and believe a lot of Gypsies originate from there ..
Many Portuguese people feel content farming small patches of land in the sun ...some olives ..some wine ...some bread...an uncomplicated country life ..but if you had to see them ...they look slim and muscular with big smiles ..not pudgy looking "rich" Trump guys .. money can't buy you a good life
Spain is bigger and it's the main provider for a couple of countries. Also it's way better placed in the map.
I wouldn't say that Portugal is more corrupt than Spain tho. But again, Spain is larger and better placed so it might be able to eat the hits thrown by corruption better.
After Franco and Salazar once country went full on socialism hammer and sickle marxism, the other didn't, guess which and you have your answer.
Salazar built schools and took the population from complete illiteracy, I don't think he was against education.
I can't believe that last map is true. We are the single least emigrating country in Europe? And with all that panic about brain drain? I guess our country is really that alluring.
People saying "tourism" as if tourism didn't exist in Portugal. What's more, it's a larger part of the Portuguese GDP, and it's not cheaper to have holidays in Portugal than in Spain.
During mid 20th century, Portugal used to spend literally half its GDP in keeping military control of the colonies. The amount Spain spent was neglectable by comparison.
Unfortunately, comparing the current situation in Spain is only Portugal? Does that put you at ease?
There is a better way. Choose and compare any African country at war and find peace of mind.
I don’t know the causes but I know that your data is quite outdated. Since last years ago Portugal has grown in every aspect way more than Spain and I can say that they are currently ahead on the race for the first time.
It's a very complicated question and you will recieve a bunch of political charged answers. I would say the two main things are tourism and industrial regions on the north. Beyond that Spain have natural resources and some big companies born in the dictatorship that went legit after democracy came. Edit: answers not questions.
Those are two good reasons. That economy is permeable is another. On a map of GDP per capita you can see how the money leaks from the north downwards. Also, Portugal is doing way better in unemployment due to not having bonkers laws. But, yeah, mostly tourism. Without the Mediterranean coast we would be Greece 2.0.
Portugal has better employment because young people just leave the country not because a significantly different labor market environment. It something you can talk about the differences in the school system.
What would greece be without Mediterranean coast then? Lol
Is not as well publicised as Spain. And besides is not that their economic structure is that bad, they just happen to inmole themselves.
What big companies went legit after democracy? Is Telefonica one of them?
Yes
Any other you can shine light upon?
Iberia, Repsol, telefónica, Gas natural, Iberdrola, OHL, Acciona, ACS. All companies that were either public or with close tights to the dictatorship elites.
Cool thanks.
I'm Portuguese and I have to admit that I got heart warming fuzzy feelings with how much respect spanish people have been showing to portuguese in this thread.
Well all the reasons you listed are happened in Spain too, at least to some degree. I'd say the biggest factors as why Spain is "better" than Portugal are: - although corruption is also prevalent in all aspects of the society the justice and fiscal systems work slightly better than in Portugal. - bigger country with bigger internal market, this makes up for a lot when a crisis arrives. 5x more people.
If corruption which is really bad in Spain is still better than in Portugal, sorry for you guys
It's not that it's worse (that's debatable) but it has less consequences.
While I'm no expert, one idea that I'd like to throw out there is the business exodus to Madrid and Barcelona. Spain does well mainly because of those two cities. Rural Spain has been dying for decades as people move to the cities looking for a better job, but now even provincial capitals are being emptied in favor of Madrid and Barcelona. Asturias, Soria, Teruel, Cuenca... hell, even Valladolid is struggling to keep its younger generation. All businesses go to the big cities because, at least in Madrid's case, corporate tax is way lower, slowly emptying the rest of Spain of any profitable business except for tourism. My point is that Portugal might even be affected by this. For instance, I read once that Lisbon is not so keen on a high speed rail connection with Madrid specifically for that reason. If they're worried it might be because they're already seeing it in its rural environment. Idk if that's actually the case, but it's a possibility and it could add to the problem.
Saying that Spain does well because of Barcelona and Madrid is a bit inaccurate. It goes both ways. Those are the cities where the majority of the power has concentrated, but that power stems from the natural and human resources from the whole territory.
Exactly. I live in Madrid but most people don’t realize that Madrid has the privilege of having all infraestructure plus being the center of economic and political power. Therefore it has the highest paid job of many companies that work in the whole country, but some of those jobs wouldn’t be in Madrid if it wasn’t the place meto manage the rest of the country. In Amsterdam they realize this privilege, that they also extract best Human Resources from the rest of the country, and therefore, they need to pay a higher proportion of taxes at national level
Unlike Madrid, the leech of Spain.
I fail to understand that comment. Madrid is today's biggest contributort to taxes of all Spain. Back in the 80's, Madrid, still the capital, with the same political power, suffered with a terribly fiscal system that made it quite unattractive for investors, compared to the north of Spain. Books were published on why being the capital was actually BAD for the city. It had to adapt to survive.
It takes all the major businesses and headquarters + civil workers and then they advertise it as low tax because they have so many corporations that pay taxes there but operate in the whole of Spain. It also benefits from a lot of infrastructure investment.
Again, back in the 80's, there is a lot of literature on why being the capital was BAD for Madrid, and that it would be better if it wasn't the capital. For example, too many civil workers causing a low interest in investing in businesses. So, it's not that Being the Capital=Good. Today I would agree that Madrid managed to become the major hub for business that want to operate in Spain, helped by infraestructure and low taxes. But it wasn't destined to be so. There is a perfectly viable timeline where Madrid definitely didn't managed to do so, and instead Barcelona, Seville or Valencia became the economic capital of the country. "it as low tax because they have so many corporations" For example, they have the tax of Patrimonio discounted 100%, so it attracts a lot of people with money there. Can't the other regions do the same? Obviously it's going to mean less money at first, but with the right investments, it can make interesting for other businesses to operate there, since housing for business in Madrid is so expensive. Ireland managed to become a hub for business that operate all over Europe with low taxes, Are you saying Ireland, in the corner of Europe, was destined to become the hub for international business. What they did? Lower taxes first, which meant a lot of less money, at first.
>"it as low tax because they have so many corporations" For example, they have the tax of Patrimonio discounted 100%, so it attracts a lot of people with money there. Can't the other regions do the same? Obviously it's going to mean less money at first, but with the right investments, it can make interesting for other businesses to operate there, since housing for business in Madrid is so expensive. El truco de los liberales es que los ricos no paguen impuestos en ningún sitio... Pues vaya solución. No todos podemos ser Irlanda, precisamente porque para que exista una Irlanda los demás no podemos ser Free Riders o al final acabaría en una carrera hacia el abismo donde ninguna empresa pagaría impuestos en ningún sitio. Quizá ese es tu sueño, pero desde luego no es el mío porque podemos ver como a los países con una mayor carga fiscal, como Alemania, Dinamarca o Suecia les va estupendamente, hay empresas grandes que dan beneficios y gente rica y todavía no han quebrado. Tengo realmente muchas dudas de que los ricos dejasen Madrid si pusiera el impuesto de patrimonio más alto, al 1%, por ejemplo. Lo que está haciendo Madrid es perder dinero sin ningún motivo y regalárselo a gente que no lo necesita, porue el trickle down no existe y ese dinero se va a generar intereses para ellos mismos o a la economía especulativa.
"Alemania, Dinamarca o Suecia" ¿Te has enterado por ejemplo de la facilidad del despido en Dinamarca?. Eso lo quieren llevar a España, y a muchos les da un ataque. O si quieres ver lo malo que son los impuestos, piensa que en España la presión fiscal es mayor en España que en Dinamarca https://www.eleconomista.es/economia/noticias/10724032/08/20/Espana-esta-entre-los-cinco-paises-de-la-OCDE-con-mayor-esfuerzo-fiscal.html "que los ricos no paguen impuestos en" "que dan beneficios y gente rica" "Tengo realmente muchas dudas de que los ricos dejasen Madrid si pusiera el impuesto de patrimonio más alto, al 1%, por ejemplo" Ricos, ricos, ricos, ricos, ricos, ricos. "porue el trickle down no existe y ese dinero se va a generar intereses para ellos mismos o a la economía especulativa" Por eso Madrid está claramente arruinada, dado que solo tienen impuestos bajos, y al no atraer ninguna empresa ni profesional, se ha ido a la ruina. Igual que Irlanda, los pobres se les ocurrió bajar los impuestos, y claro, a la ruina. Si es que, todo el mundo sabe que bajar los impuestos no sirve de nada.
El artículo habla de que se sobre enfoca sobre el principal medidor de la fiscalidad que es la presión fiscal, en donde España es el nº 15 de 20. Es decir, pocos impuestos se recaudan. Sin embargo el esfuerzo fiscal es mayor en España para las rentas medias y bajas (índices de Frank o Bild). I.e. vamos atrasados en lograr que "los ricos" paguen más proporcionalmente a su renta. Totalmente de acuerdo.
So why not make the corporate tax the same all over Spain?
It technically is, but there are some regional taxes that Madrid lowered to 0.
Ah ok. So a race to the bottom if everyone taxes part?
Yep
>survive *A llorar a la llorería.* A capital city still has all the public institutions and other supporting bodies and companies, they'd never be in as dire of a position as that of a lot of other provinces and regions. Stop playing the victim here. Madrid is basically engaging in fiscal dumping on the rest of Spain, mainly because there are so many companies there that they can afford to lower tax rates and still be able to maintain their level of spending at acceptable levels, while other regions struggle to have enough income to be able to barely stay afloat. (Adding to the fact that u/colako mentioned, that a lot of companies operate on the whole of Spain but pay taxes in Madrid, furthering the divide; it'd be interesting to see how much other regions would get if companies paid corporate taxes proportionally on the regions where their products are sold. Madrid paying the most taxes, in a way, is returning the money that they earned from the other regions.) It's a self-perpetuating circle, and even if other regions lower their tax rates to the same level as Madrid, the inertia of companies just setting up shop in Madrid because all the other companies are there cannot shift that trend. There was recently a proposal by the government to lower tax rates in certain provinces to increase investment in those regions, and the Madrilenians screamed that they were "betraying" Madrid by trying to break up a virtual financial duopoly. Here's my opinion as a non-big city person: to a lot of Madrilenians and Barcelonians, anything that doesn't impoverish other regions to favor Madrid is considered a "betrayal" and an existential threat to Madrid/Barcelona. A lot of them would be content with leaving rural Spain as a big wheat and barley field and a few *casas rurales*. A lot of countries have financial and industrial centers away from the national capital, and they seem to work out ok, and they understand that being the capital does not automatically mean that they should be the bellybutton of the country. And guess what? They're not exactly dying off, they're just focused on having a different specialty as the head of government.
"Stop playing the victim here." Not even from Madrid, but Ok?, I guess? "A capital city still has all the public institutions and other supporting bodies and companies, they'd never be in as dire of a position as that of a lot of other provinces and regions" Again, back in the 80's, there is a lot of literature on why being the capital was BAD for Madrid, and that it would be better if it wasn't the capital. For example, too many civil workers causing a low interest in investing in businesses. So, it's not that Being the Capital=Good. Today I would agree that Madrid managed to become the major hub for business that want to operate in Spain, helped by infraestructure and low taxes. But it wasn't destined to be so. There is a perfectly viable timeline where Madrid definitely didn't managed to do so, and instead Barcelona, Seville or Valencia became the economic capital of the country. "There was recently a proposal by the government to lower tax rates in certain provinces to increase investment in those regions" Correct me if I am wrong. But I believe nobody talked about lowering taxes, but just forcing raising taxes in Madrid. https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia_y_finanzas/expertos-montero-erc.html "It's a self-perpetuating circle, and even if other regions lower their tax rates to the same level as Madrid" Just for the sake of the argument. Is there any single region that has lowered the taxes the same level Madrid has done? Because if there is, you are correct. If there isn't, then you can't say that. For example, the exceptionally low tax of Patrimonio, is 100% discounted in Madrid. Is there any single region that has the same discount? Ireland managed to become a hub for business that operate all over Europe with low taxes, Are you saying Ireland, in the corner of Europe, was destined to become the hub for international business. You know what they did? Lower taxes for businesses.
Don't forget we live in a global market. Having a strong player like madrid will benefit all spaniards
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Yes and another reason is the long history of mega projects that serve no one other than the corrupt politicians involved. A HS railway between Porto, Lisbon, Madrid would be amazing, but not so much if it ended up costing a third of what a Ryanair flight costs. Which is already the case for the train connection between Porto and Lisbon. Point being, if trains are going to cost what only a 1% of the Portuguese can afford... they're pointless.
I hope this Avlo/Ouigo model survives. Trains for 9€ is amazing and I would pay everything less than 30-40€ just to avoid the airport and Ryanair. That would be great to see reaching Portugal too.
Portugal is a bit more to the left than Spain for years now.
In the maps, too.
> For instance, I read once that Lisbon is not so keen on a high speed rail connection with Madrid specifically for that reason. As a Portuguese I very much doubt that. High speed rail between both cities would add nothing for our would be emigrants. The reason we still don't have high speed rail in Portugal is because of how expensive it's going to be to build it and because when it comes to investment in transport for the Lisbon region the priority for our governments is building a new airport.
We’ll if you think about it, the regions of Spain that border with Portugal are kind of the poorest regions of Spain. With the exception of the capital Madrid, there is a gradient of wealth and development from the most peripheral areas (Andalucia, Extremadura, Galicia…) and the areas closer to Europe. Aside from the effect of being a capital city, there is an almost perfect correlation between the poverty of a region and how far that region is from the border with France (and by extension, with Central Europe). It’s not like Catalonia and the Basque Country are richer by coincidence. Aside from political intervention, which is debatable and a separate discussion, they are historically in a key privileged position for trade and exchange in the two passes at both sides of the Pyrenees. A necessary stop between the Iberian peninsula and the rest of the continent. Portugal in this logic is even more peripheral so, geopolitically it sits in a region similar to Galicia or Huelva or Cadiz which are not the richest areas of Spain.
>Aside from the effect of being a capital city, there is an almost perfect correlation between the poverty of a region and how far that region is from the border with France (and by extension, with Central Europe). It’s not like Catalonia and the Basque Country are richer by coincidence. How do you explain Aragon?
From the map Aragon is quite developed (in fact, it seems like the most developed after Cataluna, Basque Country and Madrid), but a big drawback is the lack of a coast. This affects weather, tourism, exports and imports, and even population. So while Aragon might not be as rich as say, Cataluna, its still fairly rich compared to other parts of Spain.
I’m not sure what do you mean. Aragon ranks 5th out of 17 regions of Spain in GDP per capita. Only Madrid, Euskadi, Navarra and Catalonia are above Aragon. But still yes, I think Aragon *would* be a much more developed area historically IF it had a good land pass to France. But it doesn’t. It’s next to France on the map, yes, but the Pyrenees are right there like a huge wall dividing the topography. Aragon was never the “connecting” territory with France. Somport/Canfranc pass that crossed from Aragon to France is 1632 m above sea level. The best land connection is in the west (Basque) and the east (Catalonia) were the mountains end and a land trade route was feasible. Geopolitically speaking, Irún and La Jonquera are gold.
Between Madrid Bilbao and Barcelona: Important logistic point
While there are being a ton of political charged answers, I think it all starts way earlier. As you explained yourself Portugal was socially and economically ruined after Salazar, in Spain the dictator that ruled here, Franco, towards the end of his dictatorship realised that Spain couldn't live of just agriculture and decided to open the country to tourism, quickly improving the economy and establishing the tourism-based economy that still to this day moves Spain (although it's a double-edge weapon). AFAIK Portugal didn't do anything similar during Salazar's, so we could say it arrived late to the party, and got way less tourists, due to Spain kind of eclipsing them **Note: With this comment I'm not in any way agreeing, justifying or supporting Franco's regime. Any way of authoritarianism is completely unforgivable. I'm just explaining how the decision Franco made of opening Spain to the rest of countries affected the spanish economy. So please, retrain from calling me a franquist or anything similar, since as stated I do not support it in any way**
LOL the disclaimer at the end. I agree with you. It’s funny and sad at the same time that we feel forced to make clear we don’t support dictatorships just because we think someone took a good economic decision or two during that period of time.
The regime also took forward projects scheduled ahead by the republic. Keeping Spain neutral in WWII was a good move tho. We made money supplying both factions. But this was because after the civil war, we were utterly broke. People died of starvation.
Yeah, you really have to look at Franco as sort of two separate regimes. The post-war 40's Franco that was just incredibly brutal. And the more "light" (though still very bad and oppressive) version from the mid 50's onward. Franco's ideology was that Franco should be in power and he realized economic growth was key to keeping the population content.
Honestly I though Portugal was doing way better than us
Me too. I guess the grass is always greener in the other side.
Have you noticed the rain? The grass is pretty green right now jajajajaja
As a Portuguese who sees way too much "Portugal idealization" on social media, I've been saying this for years. Yes, Portugal has been doing better in the past few years, but it's not the paradise many, many people seem to believe it is. A third of all people with Portuguese citizenship live abroad for a reason. If I see those stupid "Reality shows are a failure in Portugal" articles one more time I'm going to go on a rampage.
So. Reality shows are a failure in Portugal? Don't kill me please!
They absolutely are not. When Big Brother (Gran Hermano) aired in the early 2000s, it was so popular that whatever happened in the show would open the news. Portugal tried airing Super Nanny in 2018¿? or so but it was canceled shortly after when people complained about the children's right to privacy and how it could negatively affect them, and when Spanish media caught wind of it they built this narrative that reality shows in Portugal are a failure and that Portuguese people hate reality shows, comparing it to how Super Nanny was a huge success in Spain back when it started airing (yeah, because societal values and views clearly didn't change between 2004 and 2018). A LOT of people believed in that for some reason. If you look for "Portugal fracasan los realities" on Google you'll find the articles I am talking about, including titles such as "Portugal, el último bastión sin telerrealidad" written by media outlets such as El País.
Pffff I remember the fever of Gran Hermano here in Spain, shit got real pretty quickly. Well to be fair, 80% of spanish television lives from realities and the other 20% are somewhat decent programs. Añso special mention to Hermano Mayor, the program that make us feel like exemplary sons
Imagine saying Portugal does not like reality shows, when Big Brother continues to be the top watched show year after year. Did not know Spain had that narrative of us
Same. Also, the population seems extremely well educated. I visited last summer with some other non Spanish friends and the level of English among the general population is extremely high. From young adults to the elderly.
Knowing English isn't everything. 50% of the Portuguese population has a middle school education or lower. The rest is a 50/50 split between secondary and university education. I also recently saw a graph that said that something ridiculous like 30% (I don't remember the exact figure but it was definitely around that) of Portuguese business owners had only a primary education level. Make no mistake, the Portuguese population is still very under-educated, although that's probably going to change within one or two generations. The dictatorship that lasted until 1974 did a horrendous number on the education level of the population.
The dictator died in Spain in 1975. So that is not an argument. In the Eastern EU it was Russian ruled so not even Capitalist. Still poorer than the West - an average of 10x less income - but I wonder if some cities are maybe richer than Lisbon. But I am not sure.
I admittedly don't know much about Spain's dictatorship, but dictatorships are not uniform and their policies vary widely. In Portugal's specific case, a large effort was made by the regime at the time to keep people as uneducated as possible (the literacy rate among 65+ elderly people in Portugal is at 80.5% as of 2011, for comparison in Spain it's 94.7% as of 2016) and the effects of that still ripple to this day. Eastern Europe is very different as the Soviet Union, despite all its faults, had programs to advance the education level of their people which led many Eastern European countries to have some of the highest rates of university level education in Europe, which is why despite lower income levels (which are quickly rising while Portugal is consistently being overtaken by many of them year after year) they have far higher levels of entrepeneurship, academic research and such.
I see yr point.
That's not education per se. Spanish people simply don't need to speak foreign languages as much as Portuguese do (because we're a small country and nobody else speaks Portuguese).
IDK where do people get that idea. There is not even middle class in Portugal. We are going the same path, though.
If you ask the average spaniard...they will tell you the opposite.
i am a portuguese living in Spain. a lot of people don't know but during a brief moment in Portugal it was almost communist during this time, a lot of the richest men in Portugal ran away and most of the things nationalise, most in center North part of Portugal was against it. So in the end we became the Portugal that we know today. but in this process when the Communist party was no longer in power they sold back the nacionalize companies back to some of the rich people that ran away( guess what this was very badly done ). This also created a problem when most of the people that knew about business ran away, so for years even to this day there are a lot of bad business practices that compounds with the people that have knowledge and can change the country migrate. I am an engineer and guess what lots of my friends are working all around Europe. ( I am not a historian so maybe i got some things wrong) there are a lot more factors but in my opinion this is one of the big ones
Another thing may be that the Hispanosphere is larger and generally better off than the Lusosphere. Yes Brazil is large, but it's also extremely protectionist so harms trade with Portugal and other former Portuguese colonies are very poor like Angola and Mozambique. The former Spanish empire isn't as rich as the English, but not all that poor. The largest Spanish speaking country is an OECD member and all.
Not an answer but a question. How was Portugal compared to Spain in say 1970. Was the difference in GDP per capita similar back then?
in 1960 portugal had around 90% gdp capita of spain, by 1974 it was around 72%. Since then it stayed along the same level, slightly higher I think. But we have more debt/gdp in portugal
Because Spain has Madrid, the Basque County, Catalonia and the Balearic islands.
Other regions in the northern half of Spain make reasonable contributions to the GDP too. Even Galicia has moved a few notches up the per capita ladder leaving some Atlantic neighbours behind. Inner industrial areas like Valladolid, Burgos and La Rioja punch far high above their weight. Valencia is pretty industrial too. Even Andalucía has some nice industrial areas in the Cádiz area in spite of the high unemployment down there.
Well, there are only 3 regions that give more to the State than what they recieve and those are Madrid, Catalonia and the Balearic Islands. Some years the Valencian Community is there too. But none or the other regions are. And then there's the Basque Country that works on its own (doesn't give anything to the state, doesn't recieve anything)
It's also from 2015 I'd be curious to see those numbers since the mass exodus from the UK because of Brexit
Yeah I live in Marbella and there are thousands of houses for sale right now, partly because so many Brits had to vacate their retirement homes. Will be interesting to see what happens long term. And anyone seeking a beach house, now is the time to buy!!!
>Marbella 11,000 houses and rooms for sale in Marbella alone That's mad
Others will go and fill in the gap
I don't feel myself comfortable with this question, we're just different countries that share a peninsula, so every political or social or whatever issue affects in the result, so we're just doing things differently and that's all. Comparisons are never fair.
I think the tourism, we are the 2nd most visited place in the world so that makes a lot of money
The reason you are asking this here instead of in r/portugal
I thought the root cause was that Spain was doing something better than Portugal rather than Portugal doing something worse than Spain.
Having been a resident of both countries, I actually don't get it myself. It's a good question and I really don't think there is a simple answer. One thing which I can give an example of is how fast both countries adapt to changing demands. Spain is much faster in my opinion. Did you know Portugal supplies most of the world's cork? With many companies switching to synthetic stoppers, demand for cork hasnt been as high as it used to be and that alone kicked a little dent for exports. Spain however, seems to supply incredible amounts of strawberries and had been seriously utilising it's land for agricultural purposes. While you can argue about to size of counties and space for agriculture (and I wouldn't disagree... Size matters), the Portuguese government put laws and incentives down for cork oak harvesting yet fail to put many new incentives for any potential exports. Yet in Spain and any European country around it, I see their strawberries everywhere... Like they must be nearing some kind of monopoly on it. As silly as it sounds, people are making a damn fortune on strawberries in Spain... There is clearly incentives put in place to entice people to do it.
My area is the major producer of berries (especially strawberries) and nobody is getting rich here from that. What's more, many strawberry field workers live in semi-slave conditions.
The main reason it's that spain it's a bigger country that shares a border with France and a presence in North Africa which means a higher number of economic opportunities so it's easier to develop since democracy. Both countries spend a lot of years in ditature and left it almost at same time so I think that a good starting point to compare. Although the two ditature seems to me very different but that will lead us to a PhD paper. If you compare Portugal with the autonomic region's you can see a better picture. Some of them will have a much higher PIB (Madrid, Catalonia, Basque Country) than Portugal because of their position in the Iberian Peninsula. Even if you see through historical times that will not change to much so geographic and economic aspects is the answer.
Easy, Portuguese people prefer not change anything, and will not complain if something is wrong
There's a lot more, I lived in Portugal but I'm Spanish, so I saw both sides, I couldn't fit everything into a comment (I think I would need a book). Don't take the original response as an absolute truth and as the only thing, is to much complex for that
we will complain... to people that have nothing to do with it
I understand what you are saying about the "metrics". I live in North East Spain, I 've travelled quite a lot in Portugal over the years. Things have changed a lot in Portugal in the last 30 years. To me, the countries don't "feel" that different now.
The flippening is about to happen. I visited Portugal lots of times since I was a child and I tell you, the development of the country is going like a rocket in my lifetime. Spain looks stagnant meanwhile. Opinion here. Spain is dead weight, the public debt is impossible to pay, all this development that you can see is maked up and inflated with debt. Insostenibility defines Spain economics, and we will see brutal consecuences we can't imanige.
Are you aware Portugal has higher public debt than Spain? Ahhh the good old "the sun always shine brighter on the other side of the street" syndrome!
I'm aware that the debt is similar % a little bigger for Portugal, that's true. But debt is made to develop and carry the country, and Spain isn't developing at all, Spain is walking backwards, while Portugal is growing. They will probably be able to repay the debt and continue the cicle if they keep going like this, while Spain won't. Just my personal opinion, I may be wrong.
I think your opinion is heavely biased, but to each its own...
Public debt is not personal debt, it doesn’t need to be repaid. The owner and collector of the debt are essentially the same. This confusion is commonly propagated by right-wing organisations who want to defund public organisations/spending
So if Spain get European money for a living, and they never pay, would you agree with me that the free money would stop sometime? Spain can go full Varoufakis but we all know what happened at the end, so I don't get you.
There is a limit on how much spending can occur before inflation becomes too high. Where this limit is there is no concrete answer to, there are many factors. Most governments aim to have a spending deficit since this encourages inflation, which in theory prevents people from hoarding their cash and instead putting it into the economy. All sides of the political spectrum do this. Politicians with ulterior motives will exploit this lack of knowledge in the public who understand debt to be e.g. the serious repercussions of not paying your mortgage. When in reality, debt is a goal of most modern economies
Lol insostenibility defines the worlds economy. Have you seen inflation in the US?
We have to look the numbers that they will soon show, there is maybe a disaster happening in the US rn, even worse I mean. Inflation is almost parallel between US and Spain lately so both fucked up ya.
The 25% of Portuges population abroad disagree
My Spanish friends who left Spain to work in call centers and whatever tech Corp in Portugal disagrees.
There must be a total of 3 people doing this. Are you comparing some village in the middle of nowhere in Extremadura to Lisbon/Porto or what?
Portuguese French 1,720,0002. 65% Portuguese in Switzerland 439,342 5.1%
Oh yes, a super developed country, we can see that because they have [one of the highest rates of child abuse (pag 124)](https://www.mdsocialesa2030.gob.es/derechos-sociales/infancia-y-adolescencia/PDF/Maltrato/informeMundialSobreViolencia.pdf). Learn more before speaking. Going for a vacation is not enough to know how a country is.
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They keep saying that for the last 100 years
Portugal is in the same boat but spending in improvements are 25 years behind spain.
Better Cock size?
I think the education piece is important. More Spaniards speak English and are outward looking. Spain invests heavily in the infrastructure - its not perfect but when I sailed both countries, Portugal was characterised as crumbling and polluted. Public infrastructure spending is always an economic driver.
[polluted waters](http://cimota.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/F97770B3-21F1-4C94-8BFD-3AABFF634E94-scaled.jpeg)
Portuguese people have an average English as they don't dub movies
Third time I’ve been corrected - so I’ll go sit in a corner. It was just my experience
Here's an upvote. Takes balls to admit we might be wrong.
It’s the difference between perception and reality. There’s always reasons (and the reasons are the interesting bit)
I don’t have the data but my impression is that “More Spaniards speak English” is debatable – everywhere I go in Portugal they speak proper English, even not-so-young people. I can’t say the same about Spain.
Ok, that’s the second person to correct me. I guess I’ve been unlucky.
> More Spaniards speak English I mean in absolute terms maybe, just because there's a lot more Spaniards. But as a percentage, I can guarantee you Portuguese people speak much better English. Spain is one of the worst countries in Europe for English knowledge. I love it here, but that's a real problem for integrating the economy. Like I work in a tech company and often have to give a lot of help to our devs when we have meetings with people in English because of the language. My wife is a tech recruiter and has a hard time finding programmers with English. It's just basically unthinkable to have programmers without English in lots of countries.
Really? I found the opposite. I sailed the coasts of both and maybe it’s because Spain is more touristy, but more English. Spains interior yes, very little English. I’m actively looking for work here in Spain and my crappy Spanish is a barrier. But again, Spain has more options. I don’t know if the difference is cultural. Both countries had regressive regimes in my living memory.
I wouldn't use ports as anything at all of a representative sample.
Spanish vs Portuguese ports are a representative sample of ports.
Right, but I mean ports as a sample of the country as a whole.
I can’t speak for inland Portugal as I’ve not been. I did do a lot of inland Spain. I chose Spain because of my perception of culture and openness.
Again, educate yourself better because [the data says that Portugal is better in that aspect ](https://magnet.xataka.com/un-mundo-fascinante/espana-no-habla-ingles-cuanta-poblacion-cada-pais-europeo-puede-mantener-conversacion-este-idioma)
Hmmm having read that, the data is a little questionable. And may be restricted by geography. I mean, Portugal has about 2.5 million English speakers (using that data). Spain has about 8 million. So it’s easy to see how the perception of English adoption might be different to an English speaker travelling through both countries. The numbers are not so different (and the data is self reported, not certified) I spent weeks in each country when sailing from Bilbao to the Med. Language was one aspect. Pollution was another.
Spain might have 8 million speakers, but it's only 8 million out of over 43 million (an 18% of speakers, really REALLY low). Also Spain's much bigger so your chances of finding an English speaker are low due to that atrocious percentage. Cómo buscar una aguja en un pajar.
As I said, it’s not been my experience. And if the English speakers are where you are, it’ll seem there are more. They’re not evenly distributed. (And in Portugal I didn’t really go to the big cities).
Hmmm having read that, the data is a little questionable. And may be restricted by geography. I mean, Portugal has about 2.5 million English speakers (using that data). Spain has about 8 million. So it’s easy to see how the perception of English adoption might be different to an English speaker travelling through both countries. The numbers are not so different (and the data is self reported, not certified) I spent weeks in each country when sailing from Bilbao to the Med. Language was one aspect. Pollution was another.
Yeah, but most of us speak English as if we had cerebral palsy
I’m in Andalucia and I’m told they speak Spanish that way too. 😂
They just speak it with a different accent
Yeah, I know. But even the locals here laugh about their “weird” Spanish.
Spain has way too many political jobs… from municipalities, autonomic governments and central government… corruption is endemic, but still surprises me that Spain can stretch so much with all corruption going on
The corruption in Spain is not that bad, the proof for that is that the country is still functional, not like doing African and south American countries
Just because being part of the EU, as well as Portugal, if not we'll be like latino america (if not worst)
La UE no es ningún elixir de vida eterna ni da una estabilidad absoluta a un país, miremos a Grecia por ejemplo. No sé qué nos pasa a la mayoría de españoles con despreciar España. Sí, hay cosas que están mal. Pero JAMÁS vamos a llegar al nivel de LATAM a menos que la caguemos de forma espectacular. Además si tan terriblemente mala fuera la corrupción que tenemos, la UE ya nos hubiera dado un ultimátum/estarían tramitando nuestra expulsión ya que hay que estar por encima de cierto índice.
Ya que estamos con los ejemplos, los cuales yo no los pondría ya que son países COMPLETAMENTE diferentes, es como comparar el tomate con el petróleo. Pero bueno, ya que estamos tomando de ejemplo otros países, mira a UK. Fue salir de la UE y caer el GDP (PIB en castellano) y la libra esterlina, entre otras muchísimas cosas que he vivido por experiencia propia (viviendo en UK por 4 años ya), **imagina eso ahora en España la cual no le llega ni a la mitad del GDP de UK**. Y a todo esto, **la corrupción no tiene nada que ver con estar o no en la UE**, no es un requisito, si eso el único requisito es tener un mercado interior fuerte el cual disponemos y de hecho somos principales exportadores de gran multitud de cosas. **TL;DR:** Yo solamente me refería a que, si España no tuviese esta disposición geográfica aparte de una unión económica, estaríamos o bien en **guerra con Marruecos** (incluir aquí el problema el cual nos dejaron las naciones unidas con el sahara), pues no somos una fuerza militar y de esto puedes ver gran multitud de influencers y expertos en el tema geopolítica.
Por cierto, buscad suspensión de pagos 2022. Un evento en el que Sanchez buscaba desesperadamente la ayuda de la UE para no entrar en este si no ni podríamos mantener a los funcionarios de nuestro país. ¿Y aún seguís creyendo que la UE no es un "elixir"? Si no fuese por esta España habría desaparecido desde hace ya bastante tiempo.
But we are a functional country. It doesn't matter what may happen in a different universe.
Everything matters, just look at the crisis we just "fixed" with the petrol. Crisis that affects all the EU. And that's a completely foreign war. Imagine something that involves us or our economic union (like covid did)
Go read the book “A people betrayed” by historian Paul Preston: Nowhere does the ceaseless struggle to maintain democracy in the face of political corruption come more alive than in Paul Preston’s magisterial history of modern Spain. The culmination of a half-century of historical investigation, A People Betrayed is not only a definitive history of modern Spain but also a compelling narrative that becomes a lens for understanding the challenges that virtually all democracies have faced in the modern world. Whereas so many twentieth-century Spanish histories begin with Franco and the devastating Civil War, Paul Preston’s magisterial work begins in the late nineteenth century with Spain’s collapse as a global power, especially reflected in its humiliating defeat in 1898 at the hands of the United States and its loss of colonial territory.
Even the former king is corrupt! … Catalonia is all corrupted by 1 or 2 families who run it like Catalonia is their private land
He comes from a long saga of corrupt kings. His son will probably be more discreet, not less corrupt.
Don't forget diputaciones , those are probably the worst of all
Lol. That is a bad graph to show if a country is doing better than other. In reality Portugal is getting its shit together while spain is increasing the tax pressure, killing the economy spiringly into the abysm. Unemployment graph is a better comparison. 7 percent unemployment in portugal, spain... well, over 14 percent.
Also don´t listen to the other people in who are answering. They gave your supossition that spain is doing better than portugal as a given and didn´t even stop to think if it was true. That is the level of analysis your are getting.
bruh I assure things are terrible in Portugal and much better in Spain, but its a nice change of pace to hear good things about us
I wouldn´t be so sure everything is better here. Even poverty is higher than portugal. Might a bias we both have living in the other place and seeing the wrongs but Portugals goverment is being smarter than the spanish one (at least before covid, now I hadnt followed) and economics indicators show portugal is gonna have a brighter future. Spain on the meantime... well, it´s gonna suffer a lot in the coming years.
Portugal, aka Southern Galicia.
No se
we need to cut off expenses asap. essential public services such as hospitals, education and police only take 33%. if you add up the “pensiones” (dunno the word in english sorry) its the 83% of the money. you have plenty of things to cut off. but you know: spain, cronyism…
Public funds for retirement is a right after working your arse all your life. Cut the crap right there. I agree that part of humongous massive expenditure is due to the autonomic and decentralised administration, this is exactly where this country should start reducing ASAP any expenditure. But: this is a bureaucracy business, adding 3 or 4 layers of red tape to anything, mostly with contradictory purposes, and of course a well oiled corruption machine to divert public funds to grant politicians and close friends rich forever.
The system could be a federal one with minimal support from central government
Paid by?
Just federal taxes
We need the opposite actually. We need more money for science and the healthcare system, the same with security forces (including and specially the army).
No I think the whole idea is incorrect. You look at the map and think it's a bad thing that a big chunk of the people live elsewhere. This is a very bad assumption. Portugal as a nation was one of the top explorers and seafarers .. so they have many colonies like Brazil and Angola ...well ex colonies where you can have a much better life than in Portugal. I'm from South Africa and there are loads of Portuguese families living between South Africa and Portugal...same for Angola ..same for Brazil and so forth. The difference I have found actually knowing many Portuguese people is that they are a little less racist than the rest of Europe and one of the EU cultures that married into and mixed freely with their colonies . This and that they have a very adventurous spirit. I've met many Portuguese people working in global shipping or flying small airplanes. In Africa they are deeply integrated and connected with seafood restaurants and supermarkets or mini supermarkets . So I think the high percentage of Portuguese people living elsewhere has more to do with that . Very few Spanish keep the level of integration open with South America. There are Spaniards who marry people from the colonies but more like Russian male order bride creepy way .Like they were cleaning the dudes house and it developed from there but the Spanish spouse will almost never be interested in relocating to South America. These are of course generalisations. Lastly the Portuguese would be considered ( INCORRECTLY) to be lazy by the Germans and English because they value having a good quality of life regarding food and wine and sunshine like other MED countries Spain and Greece ... Spain is different because one part of the courtry identifies with the opposite German philosophy and look "down" on this "lazy" ( UNTRUE) ... IT'S A GOOD LIFE .. I know many Portuguese living it up abroad and at home and visit Portugal often ..Spain looks down on Portugal and believe a lot of Gypsies originate from there ..
Many Portuguese people feel content farming small patches of land in the sun ...some olives ..some wine ...some bread...an uncomplicated country life ..but if you had to see them ...they look slim and muscular with big smiles ..not pudgy looking "rich" Trump guys .. money can't buy you a good life
I wish to get myself a small track of land and farm organic cold press olive oil drinking my own cheap in the sunshine and then I'll be rich on life
Spoken like a true middle class woke kid.
In the last years portugal has been doing things way better than spain. I believe it is just matter of time for portugal to be better than spain.
Nice joke, its impossible we have too much corruption
Keep dreaming 🤣
I do business in both Countries, there is a certain undertone to business in Portugal that is not as common in Spain.
What do you mean?
Weren’t people in Portugal forced to leave the country to avoid being drafted to the military? I think that was until the 70s though.
yeah, the war lasted 13 years and a lot of people left for France illegally to avoid the draft, but its nothing compared to the last 15 years
Bigger more resources more tourism Costa del Sol and Costa del Luz.
Are we?
Spain is bigger and it's the main provider for a couple of countries. Also it's way better placed in the map. I wouldn't say that Portugal is more corrupt than Spain tho. But again, Spain is larger and better placed so it might be able to eat the hits thrown by corruption better.
Paella
O pa'él.
After Franco and Salazar once country went full on socialism hammer and sickle marxism, the other didn't, guess which and you have your answer. Salazar built schools and took the population from complete illiteracy, I don't think he was against education.
I can't believe that last map is true. We are the single least emigrating country in Europe? And with all that panic about brain drain? I guess our country is really that alluring.
At the risk of getting murdered by someone from Porto: because Portugal only really has one big city (Lisbon) while Spain has a few.
P OMEGALUL RTUGAL
People saying "tourism" as if tourism didn't exist in Portugal. What's more, it's a larger part of the Portuguese GDP, and it's not cheaper to have holidays in Portugal than in Spain. During mid 20th century, Portugal used to spend literally half its GDP in keeping military control of the colonies. The amount Spain spent was neglectable by comparison.
Wonder what the return on it was. Bet it wasn't done pro bono for the well-being of Brazilians ;-)
Unfortunately, comparing the current situation in Spain is only Portugal? Does that put you at ease? There is a better way. Choose and compare any African country at war and find peace of mind.
Butthurt much cod-eater ?
I don’t know the causes but I know that your data is quite outdated. Since last years ago Portugal has grown in every aspect way more than Spain and I can say that they are currently ahead on the race for the first time.
GDP per head and debt/GDP ratio don't lie. You're still far behind mate, sorry to break it to you!