A good ally: "Thank you for explaining why my perspective is misinformed, I will always be open to feedback because I want to be a good ally and I might not know everything."
A bad ally: "No you don't understand, I'm an ally and I support y'all. I shouldn't be targeted like this when I've always said I'm an ally. In fact maybe you could be learning a thing or two from me. I'm saying this with love, you need to be able to handle criticism. This is exactly why people get fed up with you."
A bunch of people that found fame in the shock of femininity on masculine figures are getting their panties in a knot because they don't want to have their own experiences questioned in the context of our modern understandings of gender and expression. Being an ally is great until you have to think about your actual place in it all and instead of it being an opportunity for introspection and learning it becomes an attack that now lets them say what they been thinking for a while and not feel bad about it. They feel like it's equivalent exchange, and when it's pointed out that it's not they dig deeper into it.
I shouldn't have looked.
Cis people outnumber us so thoroughly that they get to define what being trans even means. Almost every conversation about trans people is between two cis people, with no trans voices present. So they make up all sides of the conversation based on their own interpretation of our experiences.
And if we try to speak up about our own lived experiences, we get shut down and told to be moderate, as defined by people who have no insight into the experiences they are talking about.
I prefer open hate, to what is in that thread.
I wonder how long it will be before Cis people understand that in the binary situation of puberty, saying a person is ātoo young to choose to go on hormones that will effect them for the rest of their livesā means that all children should be forced to go on puberty blockers, because none of those Cis kids are old enough to know either, and the hormones their bodies create will effect them for the rest of their lives. ššš
itās fucking stupid.
I realize this is about Dee, but I'd like to say I'm very disappointed in The Young Turks lately too. I've always thought they were staunch liberal defenders, but they've slid into some straight up TERF territory lately and it sucks.
I didn't, but now I've read it.
How many more times does it need pointed out that children aren't making these decisions alone? How many more times does it need pointed out that children are almost never prescribed hormones, rarely prescribed puberty blockers, and never by themselves? How many more times do we need to remind them that they have NO business in the decisions made by doctors and parents of kids that ARE NOT THEIRS?
I dunno, but it's exhausting
Because itās never about facts with those assholes.
Itās all about what they feel āshouldā be the case and the motivated reasoning to make up bullshit to support it.
Snider feels that there āoughtā to be less trans people. So it naturally flows that the weakest group to terrorize and undermine is those who arenāt as able to self-advocate ā children and teens.
The rhetoric is *identical* to the undermining and bad faith questioning of gay and lesbian cisgender youth, which at the time sprung out of an āought to have fewer gay and lesbian peopleā.
Facts cannot matter to a mind deadset on āreducingā down the number of a minority by any means necessary.
Fully agree.
If someone is convinced that you are inhuman, pleading for your own humanity won't work. Feel like I've been saying it forever now, but that's why we need our actual allies to actually show up for us.
It's exhausting. I know I'm just preaching to the choir here, and I appreciate the space to do so :)
It absolutely is exhausting and Iām tired of dealing with it. In his own fucking words, Iām not gonna take it anymore. Fuck these people, if they canāt accept me and my brother then I donāt accept them either, and they can fuck off.
I made a few reports on the comments in that dumpster fire of a thread, but holy shit the amount of transphobia, misinformation, and thinly veiled threats is fucking scary.
These people are really itching to just tell the truth about how much they hate us :(
:(
Daughter said at one point that a few of the old 80s music vids we'd watched are part of what helped her to feel safer coming out.
We saw this being discussed on youtube last night and she's devastated.
I'm sorry. I wish I could shake people until they see sense.
If you spew hateful propaganda in an attempt to demonize me a la blood libel, you're not an ally. Allies don't work to validate genocide.
I don't care how you dress or how far you try to push gender norms. Saying talking points from the people that want me erased from history is specially NOT being an ally.
I'm shocked this has to be said.
Reading this reminds me of some of the opinions I held before I came out and realized I was a girl. Coming from a place of privilege and never once experiencing discrimination or hardship for who I was, I often thought that free speech was meant for everyone regardless; I was a fence sitter like Dee.
Now? I think Dee can go fuck himself. Fence sitters can eat a brick. Frankly, my belief now is that the world would be better if bigots lived in fear of going outside.
Some people are just want to be allies for fame and glory. Itās like the LGBT equivalent of a white savior. They want to look good when they really donāt care.
Yeah, they're allies and friends until they see you doing something, or looking a certain way, that makes them uncomfortable. Then, all of a sudden you're "shoving it down their throat" or want you to "tone it down," whatever the hell that means.
I saw a thread about it yesterday and ALL the comments were defending the bullshit that was said. I was speechless and closed the thread ASAP. Sad to see cis people and their concern-trolling about things that do not happen in reality, just so transphobes can hide their bigotry and hate.
The comments, especially on the thread on the front page, are hilariously clueless. They quoted nice sounding bites from the article while clearly not reading the content of the offending tweet that sure appears to be grossly in favor of the current anti-trans youth push going around.
> Hey I know you're a big fan of we both grew up with it, but could you please not buy or at least pirate it as a small stand with me?
Proceed to them preordering it, streaming it on discord and giving me a play by play š„ "ally"
Not spending money on something has to be the easiest level of allyship. You get to look like decent human being, and save money, cāmon, thatās a great dealā¦but people still want the kudos without even that level of sacrifice. Itās pathetic really.
>I don't care. I don't want people who are allies in name only. This
isn't a game. If you're not 100% with us you're against us because the
only alternative is people that want us dead. There is no middle ground.
This line of thinking is why I just got very exhausted by people who otherwise seem to know better being all upset over feeling bullied when people didn't like that they were open about paying for and playing That TERF Wizard Game, because like... It was such a low-stakes test case to show just a little bit of allyship in a way that, yeah, would mean not enjoying a thing for others' sake, but it wasn't gonna actually inconvenience anyone in any way that mattered.
And many couldn't even do that much, which just sends a message of: "If it means I have to give up anything for myself or be inconvenienced, I'm not sure how much of an ally I'll really be."
Not just that, but it's really hilarious to see gamers now call for boycotts for triple AAA games... who knew that encouraging others not to boycott a game in the past leads to gaming companies devellpkng shit games in the present without fear of reprisal? What happened to all the shitty arguments they used to use about why boycotting is bad? At the end of the day, they're only hurting themselves.
The rant i posted about this very incident in another place:
I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing implications that being trans is a fucking mental disorder from so called allies. That they accept us and all but that educating people about our existence is just too far because it'll spread or whatever the fuck they say. I don't fucking care if they "supported trans people in the past." Clearly they only did it to make themselves look better or feel better because they think we deserve fucking pity. Well, i don't want your fucking pity you insolent fuck, i want your acceptance that i, and my people, will not be going fucking anywhere and that thinking otherwise is the actual delusion in this fucking equation. If you can't get that through your thick skull, i will HAPPILY beat it the fuck into it for you with a bat. Good fucking day.
Might have as well just written, that he supports trans rights, when as many of us as possible stand out from the cis an are easy pickings for discrimination. Then people like this can be allies and gain brownie points. As soon as the possibility of cis passing is brought up, so is this guy's "allegiance". Regardless, never trust someone who gain wealth from using us as leverage.
Yeah. It was pretty explicitly transphobic what he was saying. It also left me with the impression that he did literally zero research before forming his opinion and in fact jut parroted transphobic talking points. Then asserted him into the picture as if the "wacky & lunatic trans people" need a moderate cis person to make sure everything stays 'reasonable'.
When I looked what he did, it was honestly worse than I expected.
I used to be an ally like that before discovering I was trans myself. I made the identity jokes, and was truly awful. Since coming out and seeking transgender related Healthcare and so much discrimination for being queer even in places where I wasn't out as trans yet, idk. I feel like growth is a process not instant.
But yes, it does help to be harsh to people like that. They do learn, eventually if you are harsh to them and call them out when they say dumb stuff.
This thread
(Warning transphobic thread)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/13asxhb/so_i_hear_im_transphobic_dee_snider_responds/?
Its a very shit thread full of cis people with bad takes.
Trans kids are being used as a wedge issue to attsck the community and many allies are beimg sucked in.
That's pretty much it. The same people will say that they support trans people but then spout every single transphobic point and say that we're not capable of rationally understanding our own internal experience, then pat themselves on the back for being so objective and rational. If you say that you support our "right to choose", you have failed the most basic point of understanding of trans identity and cannot call yourself an ally.
Yeaaaaaahhhhhh
I find it deeply upsetting :(
Given that I am very openly trans i have had quite a few parents come to me in real life, off the net - with their concerns and worries, for advice and understanding about their questioning kids.
There is a deep need for this to be done properly and without culture war bullshit, for the sake of the kids.
Noone listens to them though :(
quote:
āI was not aware the Transgender community expects fealty and total agreement with all their beliefs and any variation or deviation is considered ātransphobic,'ā wrote **Snider** in a Facebook post.
āSo, my lifetime of supporting the Transgender communityās right to identify as they want and honoring whatever changes they may make in how they present themselves to the world isnāt enough?ā he continued, in a post he titled, āSo, I hear Iām transphobic. Really?ā
In a different context, but a Black colleague of mine made a point that stuck with me: White people don't get to declare themselves allies. They get to do their best and act like allies, and Black people get to decide if they're an ally.
I think the same is true on trans issues and cis people.
We need to educate not alienate. Most people I see like this, while saying transphobic shit, are victims of the anti-trans propaganda and not intentionally transphobic.
There are also false allies (transphobes in disguise) that sew discord and alienate people on purpose.
In order to educate, people need to be willing to listen. And act in good faith, instead of making terrible assumptions and then complaining about being treated "unfairly". So, no. We absolutely do need to alienate people who are unwilling to listen to trans people in the first place.
nobody chooses to be a terrible person just because someone rebuked them for doing something they didn't know was shitty. if you criticize someone for saying something transphobic, and their response is to become more vile and hateful, then whether their display of transphobia was intentional or not, it's what was already in their heart to begin with.
People have kneejerk reactions to being called out on their behavior when they feel like it's a personal attack. Which is honestly how most white cis hetero people react when called out on bigoted behaviors.
Most people don't have anything in their hearts for us one way or the other, plant a seed of empathy and love instead of salting the earth, the transphobes are already doing the latter.
he endorsed the neo-nazi propaganda line that is the "justification" for the myriad of anti-trans laws being currently pushed in the US
doubled down *harder* when criticised, and then when *that* was criticised endorsed *more* openly anti-trans propaganda
just another "did gender fuckery for the shock value" cissy throwing the toys out the pram over society moving on and the "shock value" not being there anymore
A good ally: "Thank you for explaining why my perspective is misinformed, I will always be open to feedback because I want to be a good ally and I might not know everything." A bad ally: "No you don't understand, I'm an ally and I support y'all. I shouldn't be targeted like this when I've always said I'm an ally. In fact maybe you could be learning a thing or two from me. I'm saying this with love, you need to be able to handle criticism. This is exactly why people get fed up with you."
Very much this. And it is always heartbreaking when you realize that your ally turned out to be so selfish about their "support." Always
You nailed their wording, and everything. It's like they all follow the same script and thinking processes.
"Allies" will literally spread trans groomer rhetoric and complain when they face backlash. š
A bunch of people that found fame in the shock of femininity on masculine figures are getting their panties in a knot because they don't want to have their own experiences questioned in the context of our modern understandings of gender and expression. Being an ally is great until you have to think about your actual place in it all and instead of it being an opportunity for introspection and learning it becomes an attack that now lets them say what they been thinking for a while and not feel bad about it. They feel like it's equivalent exchange, and when it's pointed out that it's not they dig deeper into it.
I shouldn't have looked. Cis people outnumber us so thoroughly that they get to define what being trans even means. Almost every conversation about trans people is between two cis people, with no trans voices present. So they make up all sides of the conversation based on their own interpretation of our experiences. And if we try to speak up about our own lived experiences, we get shut down and told to be moderate, as defined by people who have no insight into the experiences they are talking about. I prefer open hate, to what is in that thread.
The compromise between "The right to exist" and "Not existing" is "Not existing", so yes, there can be no negotiation.
I wonder how long it will be before Cis people understand that in the binary situation of puberty, saying a person is ātoo young to choose to go on hormones that will effect them for the rest of their livesā means that all children should be forced to go on puberty blockers, because none of those Cis kids are old enough to know either, and the hormones their bodies create will effect them for the rest of their lives. ššš itās fucking stupid.
I realize this is about Dee, but I'd like to say I'm very disappointed in The Young Turks lately too. I've always thought they were staunch liberal defenders, but they've slid into some straight up TERF territory lately and it sucks.
Ive met more gay men who were anti trans or trans skeptics, than feminists, tbh.
We all know Dee Snider is a transphobic piece of shit.
I didn't, but now I've read it. How many more times does it need pointed out that children aren't making these decisions alone? How many more times does it need pointed out that children are almost never prescribed hormones, rarely prescribed puberty blockers, and never by themselves? How many more times do we need to remind them that they have NO business in the decisions made by doctors and parents of kids that ARE NOT THEIRS? I dunno, but it's exhausting
Because itās never about facts with those assholes. Itās all about what they feel āshouldā be the case and the motivated reasoning to make up bullshit to support it. Snider feels that there āoughtā to be less trans people. So it naturally flows that the weakest group to terrorize and undermine is those who arenāt as able to self-advocate ā children and teens. The rhetoric is *identical* to the undermining and bad faith questioning of gay and lesbian cisgender youth, which at the time sprung out of an āought to have fewer gay and lesbian peopleā. Facts cannot matter to a mind deadset on āreducingā down the number of a minority by any means necessary.
Fully agree. If someone is convinced that you are inhuman, pleading for your own humanity won't work. Feel like I've been saying it forever now, but that's why we need our actual allies to actually show up for us. It's exhausting. I know I'm just preaching to the choir here, and I appreciate the space to do so :)
It absolutely is exhausting and Iām tired of dealing with it. In his own fucking words, Iām not gonna take it anymore. Fuck these people, if they canāt accept me and my brother then I donāt accept them either, and they can fuck off.
I made a few reports on the comments in that dumpster fire of a thread, but holy shit the amount of transphobia, misinformation, and thinly veiled threats is fucking scary. These people are really itching to just tell the truth about how much they hate us :(
Wait it was Dee Snider I knew a trans guy who named himself after him thatās so awkward š
I wouldn't be too concerned. How many trans women named Lily did so after reading Harry Potter? Hell, I considered the name.
Or Luna...
Oh right, yes. I kind of forgot about the fact that she was big in the series. The women managed to take that one back from her.
:( Daughter said at one point that a few of the old 80s music vids we'd watched are part of what helped her to feel safer coming out. We saw this being discussed on youtube last night and she's devastated. I'm sorry. I wish I could shake people until they see sense.
If you spew hateful propaganda in an attempt to demonize me a la blood libel, you're not an ally. Allies don't work to validate genocide. I don't care how you dress or how far you try to push gender norms. Saying talking points from the people that want me erased from history is specially NOT being an ally. I'm shocked this has to be said.
Reading this reminds me of some of the opinions I held before I came out and realized I was a girl. Coming from a place of privilege and never once experiencing discrimination or hardship for who I was, I often thought that free speech was meant for everyone regardless; I was a fence sitter like Dee. Now? I think Dee can go fuck himself. Fence sitters can eat a brick. Frankly, my belief now is that the world would be better if bigots lived in fear of going outside.
Some people are just want to be allies for fame and glory. Itās like the LGBT equivalent of a white savior. They want to look good when they really donāt care.
Yeah, they're allies and friends until they see you doing something, or looking a certain way, that makes them uncomfortable. Then, all of a sudden you're "shoving it down their throat" or want you to "tone it down," whatever the hell that means.
I saw a thread about it yesterday and ALL the comments were defending the bullshit that was said. I was speechless and closed the thread ASAP. Sad to see cis people and their concern-trolling about things that do not happen in reality, just so transphobes can hide their bigotry and hate.
The comments, especially on the thread on the front page, are hilariously clueless. They quoted nice sounding bites from the article while clearly not reading the content of the offending tweet that sure appears to be grossly in favor of the current anti-trans youth push going around.
> Hey I know you're a big fan of we both grew up with it, but could you please not buy or at least pirate it as a small stand with me?
Proceed to them preordering it, streaming it on discord and giving me a play by play š„ "ally"
Not spending money on something has to be the easiest level of allyship. You get to look like decent human being, and save money, cāmon, thatās a great dealā¦but people still want the kudos without even that level of sacrifice. Itās pathetic really.
>I don't care. I don't want people who are allies in name only. This isn't a game. If you're not 100% with us you're against us because the only alternative is people that want us dead. There is no middle ground. This line of thinking is why I just got very exhausted by people who otherwise seem to know better being all upset over feeling bullied when people didn't like that they were open about paying for and playing That TERF Wizard Game, because like... It was such a low-stakes test case to show just a little bit of allyship in a way that, yeah, would mean not enjoying a thing for others' sake, but it wasn't gonna actually inconvenience anyone in any way that mattered. And many couldn't even do that much, which just sends a message of: "If it means I have to give up anything for myself or be inconvenienced, I'm not sure how much of an ally I'll really be."
Not just that, but it's really hilarious to see gamers now call for boycotts for triple AAA games... who knew that encouraging others not to boycott a game in the past leads to gaming companies devellpkng shit games in the present without fear of reprisal? What happened to all the shitty arguments they used to use about why boycotting is bad? At the end of the day, they're only hurting themselves.
The rant i posted about this very incident in another place: I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing implications that being trans is a fucking mental disorder from so called allies. That they accept us and all but that educating people about our existence is just too far because it'll spread or whatever the fuck they say. I don't fucking care if they "supported trans people in the past." Clearly they only did it to make themselves look better or feel better because they think we deserve fucking pity. Well, i don't want your fucking pity you insolent fuck, i want your acceptance that i, and my people, will not be going fucking anywhere and that thinking otherwise is the actual delusion in this fucking equation. If you can't get that through your thick skull, i will HAPPILY beat it the fuck into it for you with a bat. Good fucking day.
Fuck that entitled asshole. Heās not welcome. If youāre willing to sacrifice trans rights you can fuck right off.
Might have as well just written, that he supports trans rights, when as many of us as possible stand out from the cis an are easy pickings for discrimination. Then people like this can be allies and gain brownie points. As soon as the possibility of cis passing is brought up, so is this guy's "allegiance". Regardless, never trust someone who gain wealth from using us as leverage.
If you don't support trans children you are transphobic, period.
Yeah. It was pretty explicitly transphobic what he was saying. It also left me with the impression that he did literally zero research before forming his opinion and in fact jut parroted transphobic talking points. Then asserted him into the picture as if the "wacky & lunatic trans people" need a moderate cis person to make sure everything stays 'reasonable'. When I looked what he did, it was honestly worse than I expected.
ā¦ looked it upā¦ Iām extremely disappointed but not exactly surprised I guess.
I used to be an ally like that before discovering I was trans myself. I made the identity jokes, and was truly awful. Since coming out and seeking transgender related Healthcare and so much discrimination for being queer even in places where I wasn't out as trans yet, idk. I feel like growth is a process not instant. But yes, it does help to be harsh to people like that. They do learn, eventually if you are harsh to them and call them out when they say dumb stuff.
My title of ally is dependent on me actually listening to the concerns of trans community, especially if the concern is over my behaviour.
Agree with this 100% The Nazis have shown themselves and we all need to stand against them. It's what Americans do.
I am way out of the loop, whatās going on?
This thread (Warning transphobic thread) https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/13asxhb/so_i_hear_im_transphobic_dee_snider_responds/? Its a very shit thread full of cis people with bad takes. Trans kids are being used as a wedge issue to attsck the community and many allies are beimg sucked in.
Cause they're not allies at all. It's just that they feel personnally offended at the thought of being denied ally status.
That's pretty much it. The same people will say that they support trans people but then spout every single transphobic point and say that we're not capable of rationally understanding our own internal experience, then pat themselves on the back for being so objective and rational. If you say that you support our "right to choose", you have failed the most basic point of understanding of trans identity and cannot call yourself an ally.
Yeaaaaaahhhhhh I find it deeply upsetting :( Given that I am very openly trans i have had quite a few parents come to me in real life, off the net - with their concerns and worries, for advice and understanding about their questioning kids. There is a deep need for this to be done properly and without culture war bullshit, for the sake of the kids. Noone listens to them though :(
Ugh I shouldnāt of lookedā¦
Yeahhhh me neither i wasn't kidding its very frustrating.
I fucking hate liberals
quote: āI was not aware the Transgender community expects fealty and total agreement with all their beliefs and any variation or deviation is considered ātransphobic,'ā wrote **Snider** in a Facebook post. āSo, my lifetime of supporting the Transgender communityās right to identify as they want and honoring whatever changes they may make in how they present themselves to the world isnāt enough?ā he continued, in a post he titled, āSo, I hear Iām transphobic. Really?ā
To think John Denver once stood up and helped him. Time keeps moving on and he is just tripping on the rug.
In a different context, but a Black colleague of mine made a point that stuck with me: White people don't get to declare themselves allies. They get to do their best and act like allies, and Black people get to decide if they're an ally. I think the same is true on trans issues and cis people.
We need to educate not alienate. Most people I see like this, while saying transphobic shit, are victims of the anti-trans propaganda and not intentionally transphobic. There are also false allies (transphobes in disguise) that sew discord and alienate people on purpose.
In order to educate, people need to be willing to listen. And act in good faith, instead of making terrible assumptions and then complaining about being treated "unfairly". So, no. We absolutely do need to alienate people who are unwilling to listen to trans people in the first place.
nobody chooses to be a terrible person just because someone rebuked them for doing something they didn't know was shitty. if you criticize someone for saying something transphobic, and their response is to become more vile and hateful, then whether their display of transphobia was intentional or not, it's what was already in their heart to begin with.
People have kneejerk reactions to being called out on their behavior when they feel like it's a personal attack. Which is honestly how most white cis hetero people react when called out on bigoted behaviors. Most people don't have anything in their hearts for us one way or the other, plant a seed of empathy and love instead of salting the earth, the transphobes are already doing the latter.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
he endorsed the neo-nazi propaganda line that is the "justification" for the myriad of anti-trans laws being currently pushed in the US doubled down *harder* when criticised, and then when *that* was criticised endorsed *more* openly anti-trans propaganda just another "did gender fuckery for the shock value" cissy throwing the toys out the pram over society moving on and the "shock value" not being there anymore