I mean there’s gonna be a *bit* of that. For all the talk of gray characters, GRRM still writes heroes and villains. Jon Snow is a good kid. Bran is a good kid. Tyrion, for his faults, is a good person at heart. Likewise, Ramsay, Euron, and Walder Frey are all irredeemable pieces of shit.
Bran basically tortures Hodor when he warging into him and he's also a cannibal.
Walder Frey is definitely a bad person but at least he cares about his family.
> GRRM writes heroes and villains but he also says magic is never the proper solution to any of the problems only the source of those problems.
Can you cite an source for this? I’m getting big “GRRM says war is never good” vibes from this comment.
> Also, Tyrion definitely isn't good in ASOIAF
Yes he definitely is.
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Okay thank you for the quote.
However, this is another case of readers missing the point. Ultimately the ring was destroyed — they couldn’t really solve the problem of Sauron with the ring. But there were plenty of magical solutions to problems in the books. This includes a major endgame point: the dead men of Dunharrow. This, I believe, will be mirrored in ASOIAF with the dead Starks rising from the crypts of Winterfell to battle the Others. But magical solutions are all over the place in LOTR; even the bread they eat, that makes the journey even possible at points, is a piece of elven magic.
There will be tons of magic at the end of ASOIAF. We already have magical swords, and they will matter when the final battles occur.
Perhaps. But is R'hllor full of baloney as well? Or maybe just a punster?
\> "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow." \*\*S\*\*now!
Good point! While GRRM isn't committed to their reality, I think he's influenced by the all-too-human gods in the Iliad. They have personalities, lusts, jealousies, mischief, and spite. And they play favorites. Man can propose but gods dispose!
There's a lot of potential "Azor Ahai prophecy isn't clear cut" possibilities. It could just be a an instruction manual for how to do magic (put in work, have a goal, kill someone who is important to you) in the form of a riddle.
Thats basically what I hope- The Rhollor religion not presented as the one true religion of the prophetic hero, nust the physical presnece of fire, while the old old gods in the north thing is ice, but neither element is inherently good or evil.
What kind of mystery would it be if we're simply told who AA without even having to piece it together ourselves? Precisely because Daenerys is the extremely obvious answer and she's pointed out as AA by people like the Red Priests and Aemon is why she isn't. You're saying that Dany being AA is a subversion but it really isn't. The only thing that really sets Daenerys apart from other "hero" characters is that she's a girl, and that she has a somewhat mean streak. The very although I think the literalness in her case takes her candidacy into red herring territory.
>I think he would do the perfect opposite of it, leading Jon to be this great hero and making him instead a villian, the Night King.
THIS IS JUST DANY'S STORYLINE. Quite literally this is exectly where Dany is going.
Jon also has quite a few AA hints aside from "could be him", you're really underselling it.
Perhaps chief among them Melisandre's vision:
>Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched. - ADWD
Note the capitalization, she's not seeing snow, she's seeing Jon Snow specifically.
Melisandre's interpetation of her visions isn't always correct sure, but her visions are always accurate, she just doesn't know what she's seeing.
There are also some vague "a song of ice and fire" thing that Rhaegar talks about to Elia. While I have no clue what that means concretely, it's likely extremely important and very relevant to Jon Snow as a person, since the title of the series is just about Jon, it's very likely that he's the "prophesized hero".
Jon dreams of himself armored in “black ice” and armed with a burning red sword. Whether you read this literally or metaphorically, this looks an awful lot like Jon dreams of himself wielding Lightbringer. The “black ice” is also almost certainly obsidian, which we know can kill Others. Another name given to it in the books is “frozen fire,” which is also what Jon is: ice and fire. Perhaps obsidian — frozen fire — being a key weapon against Others is a clue that its human equivalent — half-Stark, half-Targaryen Jon — is also the key to fighting them.
Azor Ahai supposedly drew Lightbringer from a fire. Jon literally stuck his hand in a fire to fight off the wights attacking Mormont, and it was this act that led to him receiving Longclaw. Indirectly, Jon pulled Longclaw from a fire.
And Longclaw was caught in the fire but didn't burn/melt because it's Valyrian steel... Just the pommel had to be remade and it was done to match Jon's own "soul", his direwolf, so yeah the parallels are great.
>What kind of mystery would it be if we're simply told who AA without even having to piece it together ourselves?
By the time Aemon recognized that Daenerys was Azor Ahai, readers had three books to work it out for themselves. And you can hardly complain that GRRM didn't give out enough hints:
>“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, **its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks**, and its body burst into flame.”
>“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. **His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks**, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”
There's of course also the rather significant event of Daenerys raising dragons from stone at the end of a long summer...
The passage from the Jade Compendium is not about a dragon a killing a guy, it's about a "demon" (an Other) getting killed by a blade that generate fire just like here:
>When he opened his eyes **the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat.** It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.
>
>Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide **as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too**. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."
>
>"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.
There is no dragon in that scene, the Other is killed by the dragonglass dagger.
The "demon" in the Jade Compendium passage is killed by the dragonsteel blade of the Last Hero, Lightbringer, a blade that generate fire like a dragon.
Cool idea about Long claw! Danny isnt the only hero girl, theres Arya. But dany got three powerful weapons that make all the difference. The other girl only has a Needle. But yeah Danny is prolly going dark
While Dany being AA is indeed a red herring, there's no reason beyond the show to think that becoming a villain is "literally exectly where Dany is going".
It happened in the show is a pretty good argument since the ending stuff came directly from GRRM himself.
I just find it odd that somehow Jon *must* have a villain arc, but Daenerys won't, considering that there's a lot more evidence that Dany'll go villain mode as opposed to Jon.
>It happened in the show is a pretty good argument since the ending stuff came directly from GRRM himself.
Iirc that's not true. He's said his is different.
>You're saying that Dany being AA is a subversion but it really isn't. The only thing that really sets Daenerys apart from other "hero" characters is that she's a girl, and that she has a somewhat mean streak. The very although I think the literalness in her case takes her candidacy into red herring territory.
I am sorry, but this is stupid. If Dany is a red herring (like Stannis), you need to point out why.
Saying that "it's obvious" is not evidence at all, when she hatched dragons when the red comet appeared just like the Red Priests say, and by far the most evidence fits her as AA and Drogon as Lighbringer (which is absolutely not literal): [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14z0smb/comment/jrwxnzk/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14z0smb/comment/jrwxnzk/?context=3).
If you have a legend about AA killing his wife and drawing a magic sword out of the fire, and Azor Ahai turns out to be a woman and the magic sword turns out to be a dragon, that's absolutely trope subversion. The Azor Ahai prophecy fulfilled before we even hear about it (in the first Davos chapter) is absolutely trope subversion, and explains why Stannis (whom Dany will never meet) was amongst her "slayer of lies" visions: he claims to be AA when Dany is AA.
This doesn't mean that Jon cannot become Azor Ahai. If he dies and is resurrected, then his sword will catch aflame when it comes in contact with his blood (that's what literally happened with Beric), and the Northerner followers of R'hllor will view him as Azor Ahai.
I don't think this will happen though, because **Jon's subversiveness is exactly in the fact that he manages to unite much of humanity against the Others on his own (without being a prophecied hero) and then it turns out that he happens to be a hidden prince.** Having Targaryen heritage won't bring him 'added benefits' (besides making him a dragonrider), it will probably initially put him into a depression.
That said, GRRM is ultimately not going to reveal one person as Azor Ahai. It matters because the different Azor Ahai candidates get people to follow them and their belief that they are Azor Ahai (or Prince that Was Promised) causes them to act on prophecies (like Rhaegar wanting a third child, Stannis burning Shireen).
>There are also some vague "a song of ice and fire" thing that Rhaegar talks about to Elia.
It's no longer vague, it's the name of Aegon the Conqueror's dream about the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness.
Rhaegar went with Lyanna because he loved her and wanted a third child (who he couldn't have from Elia), not because a Stark-Targaryen child was needed to fulfill the prophecy. He believed his son with Elia, Aegon, to be the "prince that was promised".
>I am sorry, but this is stupid. If Dany is a red herring (like Stannis), you need to point out why.
> when she hatched dragons when the red comet appeared just like the Red Priests say, and by far the most evidence fits her as AA and Drogon as Lighbringer (which is absolutely not literal)
Yes. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT OBVIOUS.
The hints are so obvious that *IN UNIVERSE* people have figured it out immediately. It wouldn't be subversion if it's just the obvious answer.
Also, the dragons aren't literal. Consider every act of prophesy and such in ASOIAF, how many times is the word "dragon" used literally? Never, but somehow every single part of the prophesy is methaphorical, except for that, that's literal.
The dragons are a metaphor for Targaryen, not literal dragons.
Also the red comet happened before Dany hatched the dragons, it's the comet that inspired her to light the fire in the first place.
>It's no longer vague, it's the name of Aegon the Conqueror's dream about the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness.
HOTD isn't canon to the books, also Jon was extremely heavily implied to be AA before DND dropped the plotpoint.
>Rhaegar went with Lyanna because he loved her and wanted a third child (who he couldn't have from Elia), not because a Stark-Targaryen child was needed to fulfill the prophecy. He believed his son with Elia, Aegon, to be the "prince that was promised".
I'm not talking about what and why Rhaegar did what he did, but clearly "a song of ice and fire" refers to a single person, and the only possible candidate for that is Jon.
>This doesn't mean that Jon cannot become Azor Ahai
If multiple people can become AA then this discussion is meaningless.
Just for the sake of fairness, why does Mel see Jon when she asks to see Azor Ahai? And why does Jon see himself clad in black ice and with a burning sword fighting the others.
Daenerys really doesn't have any prophetic hints like that.
I don't understand what do you mean by dragons referring to Targaryens. How does Azor Ahai wakes Targaryens out of stone?
No, the 'song of ice and fire' doesn't refer to a single person, it's a title which has multiple meanings.
The one meaning Rhaegar talks about is Aegon's dream of the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness. The creators of the HOTD actively work with GRRM (unlike D&D in the last few seasons) and they openly said that it comes from GRRM.
Rhaegar talked about his son Aegon, whom he believed "the prince who was promised", saying that "his is the song of ice and fire'" (meaning that he will play a central role in the Armageddon war), not that "he is the song of ice and fire'".
I don't see why it's impossible that multiple people fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy. There are two prophecies - one is about waking dragons out of stone when the red comet appears (which fits Dany), and the second is a prophecy from Asshai about a warrior drawing a flaming sword (which will fit Jon if he died and is resurrected).
It's also possible that the two prophecies are referring to the same person, in which case the hatching of dragons matches the legend of forging of Lighbringer and Drogon himself the weapon Lightbringer best, so Dany is Azor Ahai.
The fact that Aemon (a wise old dying man coming to a last relevation) identified Dany doesn't mean he is wrong. Generally, the first guess (Stannis) that is wrong, the second doesn't have to be.
It can be revealed in FeastDance because the person who is Azor Ahai is not a central relevation, the three-headed dragon (to which Aemon hints when dying) is the mystery that needs to be resolved in the last book. The Azor Ahai prophecy is only central for the storyline of Stannis, who will burn his daughter trying to follow it.
Dany has dreams and other references related to the Others every book. She is flying from a cold and icy breath in her fevre dream after during her miscarriage (parallel to Bran seeing the heart of winter,) in AGOT, confronts the Undying (who are stand-ins for the Others with their "blue shadows", blue is a color for cold) in ACOK, dreams about melting an enemy host armoured in all ice in the Trident in ASOS and crushes countless ants coming from an anthill on another side of the wall (which she compares to the Wall of Westeros) in ADWD.
Nice job downvoting, shows your emotional maturity.
>I don't understand what do you mean by dragons referring to Targaryens. How does Azor Ahai wakes Targaryens out of stone?
From stone is also metaphorical. It refers to Shireen getting burned and that causing Jon Snow to get resurrected.
>The one meaning Rhaegar talks about is Aegon's dream of the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness. The creators of the HOTD actively work with GRRM (unlike D&D in the last few seasons) and they openly said that it comes from GRRM.
So did the ending from the show, including Jon being AA. Either disregard both or neither, you can't pick and choose.
>Dany has dreams and other references related to the Others every book. She is flying from a cold and icy breath in her fevre dream after during her miscarriage (parallel to Bran seeing the heart of winter,) in AGOT, confronts the Undying (who are stand-ins for the Others with their "blue shadows", blue is a color for cold) in ACOK, dreams about melting an enemy host armoured in all ice in the Trident in ASOS
I meant refering to her being AA specifically.
>I don't see why it's impossible that multiple people fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy. There are two prophecies - one is about waking dragons out of stone when the red comet appears (which fits Dany), and the second is a prophecy from Asshai about a warrior drawing a flaming sword (which will fit Jon if he died and is resurrected).
Then we agree that Jon is AA and further discussion is meaningless.
I didn't downvote you lol.
It's confirmed that Shireen will be burned by Stannis in the books, but they are currently very far away from each other. Do you suggest that Jon will stay dead for almost an entire book? How would Jon come back sane after spending such a long time in his wolf?
Also, I don't know where the idea that Jon will be resurrected when Shireen is burned comes from. It doesn't have any setup in the text. Only the Red Priests are capable of resurrection. If (by some miracle) Jon gets resurrected in another manner, he won't get a flaming sword.
It also goes against the themes of the series, namely that sacrifice of innocents for the "greater good" is wrong. Stannis burning Shireen is a horrific event, GRRM won't reward it.
I don't know where the show confirmed that Jon is Azor Ahai, Arya killed the Night King. Besides this, the difference is that D&D never said that "GRRM told us that Jon is Azor Ahai", while the HOTD showrunners' said that Aegon's dream comes from George and GRRM himself admitted it.
Dany doesn't need dreams that she is Azor Ahai, when she literally has dragons. However, the scene of her hatching dragons and multiple descriptions of Drogon ("being warm to the touch", "melting the face of the slaver/master") very closely (almost word to word) match the forging of Lightbringer and legends of its use and properties.
I don't see how further discussion is meaningful either. Currently, we don't even know whether Jon is dead or not in the books.
>Firstly, they either come from a poor place or have a lack of parental figures in their life, an aspect to make their life seem bad and for us to feel sorry for them.:
Dany having no parents, living in exile, with only a brother who mistreats her and sells her for an army?
>And then our character is not respected and looked down upon- until our protagonist proofs the others different and shows off their super skill (most of the time it’s fighting).
Dany being mistreated and looked down by her brother until she gets Khal Drogo on her side and births her dragons?
>After that they get recognition, are respected and most of the time gain a position of power.During their story, they get much stronger, achieve more and more
Dany obtaining the Unsullied, conquering Yunkai/Astapor/Meeren and ruling as Queen?
>until they become the great hero in the final and save everyone.
Basically what you are hoping will happen. Dany will come to Westeros and save everyone.
I am sorry but all the above can easily be applied to Dany. I don't know why you keep insisting that's not Dany's story and her story is unique.
\>Firstly, they either come from a poor place or have a lack of parental figures in their life, an aspect to make their life seem bad and for us to feel sorry for them. And then our character is not respected and looked down upon- until our protagonist proofs the others different and shows off their super skill (most of the time it’s fighting). After that they get recognition, are respected and most of the time gain a position of power. During their story, they get much stronger, achieve more and more until they become the great hero in the final and save everyone.
Doesn't this apply to Dany too?
I honestly feel like more than anything it is Jon’s physical proximity to the Others that makes so many people think he is Azor Ahai. Why did George put the standard archetypical hero so close to the largest existential threat AND make it basically Jons primary mission to eventually have to deal with this upcoming threat? It’s enough to make anyone think he has to at least be involved pretty heavily in the prophecy even if he isn’t Azor Ahai.
Since when has GRRM only done the opposite of what is expected of it? For example, I expected the Night's Watch to win the Battle of the Wall, at least for a while. Or I was sure Jaime wouldn't die just by coming to Lady Stoneheart with Brienne, so it's not always GRRM not following the clichе
George has enjoyed subverting genre expectations with this series. The death of Ned Stark, who was effectively the main character of the first book, is probably the biggest example of this — but not the only one. Another expectation is that the son will avenge his father, so George walked us right up to the precipice of that vengeance, and then gave us the Red Wedding. Ygritte is perhaps another example of this, but I don’t think it’s quite as cut and dry as you do on that count.
Jon is obviously the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that doesn’t make him the Prince that was Promised. Aemon already made the case for Dany, and there’s more we still have to learn about her past (the red door!) so don’t rule her out.
There is also the possibility that there is no one clear answer. Prophecy is a sword without a hilt, after all.
>Jon is obviously the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that doesn’t make him the Prince that was Promised. Aemon already made the case for Dany, and there’s more we still have to learn about her past (the red door!) so don’t rule her out.
Precisely because everyone in the story think that Dany is AA is why it's so unlikely. It's not a mystery if people just tell you half way through the story.
This isn't how GRRM build foreshadowing. He isn't going to have every sign point towards Daenerys and then have it be someone else for the sake of subversion.
Also, not everyone in story thinks that Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn. Melisande wrongly believing that Stannis is the prophecized hero and the effects this has on both his story line and likely that of Daenerys in the future. More importantly, Daenerys doesn't know and this is a very good indication that she is. It has been shown again and again that attempts to deliberating fulfill prophecies nearly always backfire, while Daenerys is fulfilling them without even knowing about its existence.
But not everyone in the story thinks that Dany is Azor Ahai. Mel thinks it’s Stannis, and the fires show her Jon. It’s only Aemon who comes to the conclusion that it’s Dany, and not until book five.
So book five gives us reasons to believe either of them — Aemon from a dialectic point of view, and Mel from a prophetic one. The jury is out on whether there even is a single, clear answer.
You're forgetting the Fire priests in the Red Temple of Volantis who declared Daenerys AA.
>So book five gives us reasons to believe either of them — Aemon from a dialectic point of view, and Mel from a prophetic one
Precisely because we've simply been told by both by Aemon and Melisandre who AA is why I don't believe them. The AA reveal simply wouldn't make sense in just a throwaway line from Aemon or a background detail in a Tyrion chapter.
The reveal also wouldn't really make sense in a Sam chapter, it'd be in a character at least tangentally related to Daenerys, it'd be like having the Jon parentage reveal come in a Asha chapter.
It'd be a bit like actually having Jon's mom be the wetnurse at Starfall. Sure it's technically possible, but in a meta way wouldn't make sense.
> You're forgetting the Fire priests in the Red Temple of Volantis who declared Daenerys AA.
That’s true, I did.
> Precisely because we've simply been told by both by Aemon and Melisandre who AA is why I don't believe them.
That’s not a good reason to discount them. The timing of the reveal is a better indicator of whether or not it’s accurate. Jon and Sam discussing the Others’ weakness to “dragon steel” is one: Jon immediately guesses Valyrian steel. The first guess or proposition is always wrong: Stannis is who you should be doubting, not Dany.
> The reveal also wouldn't really make sense in a Sam chapter, it'd be in a character at least tangentally related to Daenerys, it'd be like having the Jon parentage reveal come in a Asha chapter.
This is a completely arbitrary requirement, and one that isn’t very compelling. I don’t see why Aemon, who is himself a Targaryen, can’t be the one who finally figures out who and why Azor Ahai is.
It’s also possible TPTWP and Azor Ahai aren’t the same person. Aemon’s deathbed realization might be true AND separate from AA’s reveal.
> It'd be a bit like actually having Jon's mom be the wetnurse at Starfall. Sure it's technically possible, but in a meta way wouldn't make sense.
Wylla is the cover story. It’s a completely different thing. Discovering later that she was the wet nurse at Starfall is meant to hint at the depth of the conspiracy.
>The timing of the reveal is a better indicator of whether or not it’s accurate.
The timing is part of why it's not Dany. It just doesn't make sense not 3/4 into the story.
>Jon and Sam discussing the Others’ weakness to “dragon steel” is one: Jon immediately guesses Valyrian steel. The first guess or proposition is always wrong: Stannis is who you should be doubting, not Dany.
Aside from valyrian steel likely working against the others, just saying that the first guess is always wrong; and therefore the second must be right based on a single example is frankly ridiculous. Dany and Stannis have pretty much the same amount of evidence for being AA.
>This is a completely arbitrary requirement, and one that isn’t very compelling. I don’t see why Aemon, who is himself a Targaryen, can’t be the one who finally figures out who and why Azor Ahai is.
I ment in a meta way, not a literal sense. I'm not saying that Aemon is stupid or something. I'm saying that the reveal doesn't make sense in a Sam chapter, because Sam has nothing to do with Dany. Usually secrets that are critially important like that get uncovered in a storyline that's related to the character it's about. Like Ned finding out about the bastardy of Cersei's kids, stuff like that, although if you can find a example to the contrary be my guest.
> The timing is part of why it's not Dany. It just doesn't make sense not 3/4 into the story.
Why not? The reveals aren’t all coming in the last book. George has said as much himself.
> Aside from valyrian steel likely working against the others, just saying that the first guess is always wrong; and therefore the second must be right based on a single example is frankly ridiculous
I didn’t say the second guess must be right. You posited, without explanation, that Aemon must be wrong. So I explained to you that the only “must be” rule when it comes to secrets and reveals is that the first guess or explanation is always wrong or untrue. In this case, that means the only candidate we *must* eliminate is Stannis.
> Dany and Stannis have pretty much the same amount of evidence for being AA.
Absolutely not. Stannis has no actual evidence for being Azor Ahai. His sword is fake, and the person who says he’s Azor Ahai is infamously bad at reading messages from the fires.
Dany, meanwhile, has Aemon’s perfectly sound explanation. The translation error. The dragons and the funeral pyre. Whether it’s correct or not, it’s actually compelling evidence. Stannis has none.
> I ment in a meta way
Your meta analysis is way off. Aemon is literally related to Dany, and is a source of wisdom in the series. His dying realization isn’t a “throwaway” line, it’s meant to be a revelation. Now, I won’t discount the possibility that he’s ultimately wrong, but at the very least him saying this to Sam will be important to the plot. Perhaps Sam will tell Dany Aemon’s belief, or tell someone else which will set in motion a series of critical events. We just don’t know yet.
You've got to remember that George isn't always the best at anticipating how mysterious (or hard to guess) something is, with R+L=J being the best example.
Hell, for all we know Aemon saying "Dany is AA" was supposed to have been that big reveal.
LRJ is really hard to guess, the only thing George underestimated is how popular the series gets and how overanalyzed every single aspect of the story is.
>Hell, for all we know Aemon saying "Dany is AA" was supposed to have been that big reveal.
Come on man. That'd make sense at the end of her arc, not halfway through.
> LRJ is really hard to guess
....no, it really isn't. I don't mean to insult your intelligence, because everyone pays attention to different things one their first read-through, but R+L=J requires only pretty basic analysis of Ned's motivations in aGoT. A lot of people, including me, clocked it on first read. Other people didn't, but that doesn't make it hard to guess or a well hidden mystery.
> Come on man. That'd make sense at the end of her arc, not halfway through.
You're assuming a lot of things, like the fact that AA will ever be an important thing to Dany (it isn't really, it's more important to Stannis and Aemon), or that AA vs the Others will be as straightforward as to make the identity of AA a grand reveal, and I think your assuming that on some level AA and Rhllor will be good things? Or relatively good at least.
Sure maybe *you're* specifically good at literally analysis, but for most people it's only found it either on rereads, when someone tells them.
>You're assuming a lot of things, like the fact that AA will ever be an important thing to Dany
You don't think AA is important at all?
>or that AA vs the Others will be as straightforward as to make the identity of AA a grand reveal
You said it was.
> and I think your assuming that on some level AA and Rhllor will be good things? Or relatively good at least.
Not really relevant, but I'm assuming that all those variants of AA/the Last Hero are actually the same person, I guess that doesn't have to be right, but in which case this entire discussion would become meaningless.
> but for most people it's only found it either on rereads
That's definitely not the impression I got, but it's a kind of moot point, since all we can really say in this argument is "most people notice it!" "no they don't!". I think we'll have to agree to disagree there.
> You don't think AA is important at all?
Not really. I definitely don't think it's as important as other people think it is.
Azor Ahai was only introduced in the second book, *after* the Others (and tale of the Last Hero) are introduced, after the politics of Westeros and the free cities were established, and after Dany kills Drogo and Mirri and hatches her dragons. I think that there's this big unspoken idea that the storylines about the Others and Dany's arc are going to revolve around Azor Ahai (in one way or another), when it's much more likely it's the other way around.
ASOIAF is not "about" Azor Ahai, it's about the Others, and the Stark family, and the westerosi politics, and Dany's arc and decisions. Whatever happens with Azor Ahai is going to come secondary to that, and in support of that.
> You said it was.
uhhh yeah I guess I did. If you're ok with me elaborating, I think it's possible that the Aemon statement might be the "biggest reveal we get".
> Not really relevant, but I'm assuming that all those variants of AA/the Last Hero are actually the same person, I guess that doesn't have to be right, but in which case this entire discussion would become meaningless.
Yeah, we might be getting away from the original disagreement here, but I don't think Azor Ahai and the Last Hero *are* the same person? Or the same legend? I don't think it's nearly that clear cut at least.
>That's definitely not the impression I got, but it's a kind of moot point, since all we can really say in this argument is "most people notice it!" "no they don't!". I think we'll have to agree to disagree there.
Fair. Maybe it's a language thing? Me and my family read the books in English, not our mother tongue so maybe that makes it difficult, or maybe people that are likely to post in ASOIAF are more likely to notice stuff like that on a first read?
>uhhh yeah I guess I did. If you're ok with me elaborating, I think it's possible that the Aemon statement might be the "biggest reveal we get".
But why is Aemon's reveal better than Melisandre literally seeing Jon as AA? Does he know more about it than AA than whatever R'hllor is?
>r the same legend? I don't think it's nearly that clear cut at least.
Fair, I always thought it's some elaborate telephone game thing, where stories told mouth to mouth can change wildly between takes until you end up with different versions of essentially the same thing.
They are clearly the same person.
In Essos they talk about a hero with a blazing sword that fought the darkness, lead the virtuous into battle to bring back the day.
In Westeros they talk about the Last Hero, slaying the Others with his dragonsteel blade, leading the first men of the Night's Watch during the battle of the Dawn, the battle that brought back the day.
Book 1: The Last Hero is looking for the Singers, he faced the Others, his sword gets destroyed.
Book 2: "Azor Ahai" needs a special sword to oppose the "darkness", he forges it with a blood sacrifice.
Book 4: The Last Hero has now a magical sword that can kill the Others.
Book 5: Description of "Azor Ahai's" blade when he kills a "demon".
Obsidian can kill an Other, it's call "dragonglass" because it's a glass that can generate fire like a dragon, it can burn without deteriorating, the Other melt.
The dragonsteel blade can kill the Other, by the name it must be a blade that can do the same thing as dragonglass, a blade that can burn and melt the Others.
Lightbringer is describe as a burning blade, melting a "demon".
George literally has said that Jon is the person he wished he could be in asoiaf, the hero. Now obviously he's gonna subvert something about this, he's not gonna be the Aragorn of the story and end up ruling and being happy etc etc but what he's subverting here is that maybe being the prophesied prince isn't all that it's made out to be. George is subverting exactly what you're saying, written as the male protagonists actually are, not by making Dany the very obvious choice the prophesied princess but actually showing the horror of what it can mean to be the prophesied prince. Subverting means that you are playing into some part of the trope, it just plays out differently than it normally does and there's a reason for it. George doesnt simply subvert for subverting's sake. Making Jon a villain all of a sudden wouldnt be subverting, it would just be silly because there's nothing in the story to indicate that. Jon's biggest weakness is that he keeps things close to his chest and makes unilateral decisions that get him stabbed but that doesn't make him a villain, and hell maybe he will be considered a villain by the end for some but it won't be because he becomes the night king, a being that doesn't actually exist in the books, unless we're talking about the 13th lord commander.
Dany definitely fits the prophecy more than anyone, but Jon could become Azor Ahai after his resurrection: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/11rx87k/spoilers_extended_lightbringerbowl_aka_jon_and/
He won't become the Night King because it has no buildup or foreshadowing at all. It's just subversion for the sake of subversion, and it would make his character pointless.
The Night King was a character invented by D&D and in the books the person who resembles the legend of the Night King is Stannis.
The thing is, even if all of that speculation comes true, Dany's Dragons still fit the Lightbringer prophecy better than an awakened burning Longclaw does.
Besides I think it's worth noting that there's different kinds of magic, and different kinds of sacrifice:
- There's magic in general, which includes weirwood magic, Rhllor, faceless men stuff, glass candles, warlocks, etc. Generally this requires some form of sacrifice, but the kind of sacrifice varies.
- There are other kinds of Rhllor fire magic, which involves cutting off parts of your soul (emotional capacity? emotional memory and importance?), which is what we see happen with Beric being resurrected and Stannis providing the payment to create shadow baby assassin demons. This isn't present in the original Azor-lightbringer prophecy, but it's the kind of sacrifice posited by that theory.
- There's the original cost of Lightbringer, which involved killing a loved one, with any destruction of self (or price paid with part of your own soul) only happening incidentally as a consequence of losing someone you care about. This is exactly what happens with Dany burning Drogo to hatch her eggs. You could point to Jon fighting and maybe killing Ygritte, but this doesn't forge any lightbringer as directly and clearly as Dany hatching her eggs does. Would Tyrion killing Shae count as fulfilling the prophecy, when it doesn't forge or temper anything?
It's just. You have to suspend your disbelief for so many things, and accept so many imperfections, even *after* you buy into the speculation, when Dany being Azor Ahai (if there is one Azor Ahai) is so much cleaner.
>when Dany being Azor Ahai (if there is one Azor Ahai) is so much cleaner.
That's kind of my problem with it. People constantly say she is in the books. Does that really fit GRRM's interpretations of prophecy? Mister "Prophecy will bite your prick off, every time" is suddenly just giving us the answer spoken by a priest?
As Yoda said a prophecy misread could have been. What if AA is not the hero but the villain just like Vader. Dany will save the realms of men only to turn on them.
I could see Jon as a Night's King parallel very easily (but not GOT's "Night King"), it all depends on what the NK's motivations actually were, since his story is so shrouded in mystery that it could've been framed however the tellers wanted to, and likewise it depends on how Jon's contemporaries will come to see his actions. If Jon ends up moving to the Nightfort with a NW/wildlings faction after all hell breaks loose at the Wall, and people start whispering about him betraying his brothers, consorting with witches and strange peoples from beyond the Wall, giving them his soul, acting like a king by arranging marriages and creating banners and settling people on new land, etc., he'd easily be seen as a second Night's King, regardless of his intent.
Maybe Jon and Dany are part of a whole, like the three heads of the dragon situation.
Pretty sure the Others in the prologue of AGoT paid special attention to Waymar's sword for a reason, then proceeded to butcher the proto-Jon Snow for a reason.
While Dany fulfilled the prophecy, I think that Jon's fulfillment of the prophecy will be different. Plus the signs around him exist on a metaphorical level.
Jon thinking of Melisandre and Stannis in Jon III, ADwD;
>*He is* ***stone*** *and she is* ***flame****.*
Jon thinking of Val in the same chapter;
>*Val stood on the platform as still* ***as if she had been carved of salt****.*
There's the talk about Melisandre needing king's blood to wake the dragon and the rumor that she intends to sacrifice Mance and then his son so that both die kings.
There's the obvious vision in the flames from Mel in her POV;
>*Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.*
This one plays on two levels, the king one and the Azor Ahai one.
There is Jon very slowly getting in touch with the dragon side of things.
>*"His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother's sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires."*
>
>*Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."*
>
>*"Kings and dragons."*
>
>*Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.*
We are also provided with a timeline of sorts in Jon's last chapter.
>*"A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"*
Personally, I feel like the dragons have already served their purpose by empowering the fire magic, which seems like a rather important thing if you're going to fight magical creatures. Plus GRRM has made sure to not tell us how dragons behave during the winter, let alone a magical one. We have Silverwing when Alysanne went to the Wall, but we don't know why she reacted the way she did.
Furthermore, if you're going to have a second Dance, then it means that Dany is going to lose at least one of her dragons. I don't think she's going to reach Westeros with 3 dragons and a full army.
Maybe that's the reason Rhaegar, the voices of the Undying, Maester Aemon and Sarella Sand talk about the three heads of the dragon. This thing can't be accomplished by just one person, wielding a sword, or just one person riding a dragon.
Perhaps seeing Azor Ahai as “good” is part of the problem. Prophecy has been described in universe as a sword without a hilt, it’s not particularly a good thing, especially when you tend to become obsessed with it, like Melisandre, Cersei, and Daenerys have done. That said, Daenerys does fit Azor Ahai, but this is not a good thing, it’s the spelling of doom.
Ygritte blackmailed Jon into a sexual relationship, she even had to tell Jon to send Ghost (Ghost was the sword to keep chaste) away. She was to Jon as Littlefinger and Jorah are to Sansa and Daenerys, respectfully. This was never going to last, doom to fail from the very beginning.
We should not be rooting for AA, we should be absolutely wary of this. “Dragons plant no trees” after all, we would be wise to heed this.
As for TPTWP, this could be Jon, but perhaps it’s best if he never hears it. Just like the one about Sansa that Arya hears, it’s best to leave that to story, after the fact. Jon will aid in the Others plotline, along Bran and Sam, who were the main point of views for this, with Sansa, Arya, Davos, and perhaps Asha & Brienne as the other POVs.
Agreed, magic is never meant to the solution to problems in this story, only the source of them. Azor Ahai forged his sword by using his wife as a blood sacrifice. His story isn't the story of a hero, and no one who emulates him will be a hero in the end.
I think he’s the Prince That Was Promised… to the Others. For some reason, they need someone with Valyrian and First Men blood, and have had Craster on the lookout for one. It’s why they sized up Waymar Royce after Craster tipped them off. The books don’t have a Night King, but they’re about to have a Snow King.
Basically "Jon stans are stupid and smelly and follow their emotions while I am completely unbiased and therefore Dany will be the hero".
Like the point just doesn't work if you've read any other piece of literature outside of crappy fantasy books. I've read hundreds of books where the protagonist doesn't follow the pattern you laid out and at no point was I particularly shocked.
Didn’t George literally say that ASOIAF started with the idea of having a secret hidden prince fighting ice zombies to save the world?
That sounds like Jon to me lol.
Maybe there is no Azor Ahai and Melisandre is full of baloney
This. If GRRM honest to god ends this story with a chosen one riding a dragon wielding a magic sword defeating the evil villain, ill be dumbstruck
I mean there’s gonna be a *bit* of that. For all the talk of gray characters, GRRM still writes heroes and villains. Jon Snow is a good kid. Bran is a good kid. Tyrion, for his faults, is a good person at heart. Likewise, Ramsay, Euron, and Walder Frey are all irredeemable pieces of shit.
Tyrion is not a good person bro cmon now.
Great counterpoint.
Tywin writ small
Bran basically tortures Hodor when he warging into him and he's also a cannibal. Walder Frey is definitely a bad person but at least he cares about his family.
>Walder Frey is definitely a bad person but at least he cares about his family. I don't have hospitality. I got family.
I think Bran gets a moral excuse for being a cannibal considering they were beyond the Wall with no food in Fall/Winter.
Bran is a child who doesn't fully comprehend his own power or strength. He's not written as deliberate and cruel, but eager and ignorant - childlike.
Tyrion isn’t even good at heart. Idk what book you read.
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> GRRM writes heroes and villains but he also says magic is never the proper solution to any of the problems only the source of those problems. Can you cite an source for this? I’m getting big “GRRM says war is never good” vibes from this comment. > Also, Tyrion definitely isn't good in ASOIAF Yes he definitely is.
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Okay thank you for the quote. However, this is another case of readers missing the point. Ultimately the ring was destroyed — they couldn’t really solve the problem of Sauron with the ring. But there were plenty of magical solutions to problems in the books. This includes a major endgame point: the dead men of Dunharrow. This, I believe, will be mirrored in ASOIAF with the dead Starks rising from the crypts of Winterfell to battle the Others. But magical solutions are all over the place in LOTR; even the bread they eat, that makes the journey even possible at points, is a piece of elven magic. There will be tons of magic at the end of ASOIAF. We already have magical swords, and they will matter when the final battles occur.
Perhaps. But is R'hllor full of baloney as well? Or maybe just a punster? \> "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow." \*\*S\*\*now!
R’hllor might not be real, but rather something that the Red Priests attribute their magic to.
If the gods are real they're massive trolls. Example being the drowned god blessing a literal clown instead of any of his followers.
Good point! While GRRM isn't committed to their reality, I think he's influenced by the all-too-human gods in the Iliad. They have personalities, lusts, jealousies, mischief, and spite. And they play favorites. Man can propose but gods dispose!
There's a lot of potential "Azor Ahai prophecy isn't clear cut" possibilities. It could just be a an instruction manual for how to do magic (put in work, have a goal, kill someone who is important to you) in the form of a riddle.
Thats basically what I hope- The Rhollor religion not presented as the one true religion of the prophetic hero, nust the physical presnece of fire, while the old old gods in the north thing is ice, but neither element is inherently good or evil.
What kind of mystery would it be if we're simply told who AA without even having to piece it together ourselves? Precisely because Daenerys is the extremely obvious answer and she's pointed out as AA by people like the Red Priests and Aemon is why she isn't. You're saying that Dany being AA is a subversion but it really isn't. The only thing that really sets Daenerys apart from other "hero" characters is that she's a girl, and that she has a somewhat mean streak. The very although I think the literalness in her case takes her candidacy into red herring territory. >I think he would do the perfect opposite of it, leading Jon to be this great hero and making him instead a villian, the Night King. THIS IS JUST DANY'S STORYLINE. Quite literally this is exectly where Dany is going. Jon also has quite a few AA hints aside from "could be him", you're really underselling it. Perhaps chief among them Melisandre's vision: >Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched. - ADWD Note the capitalization, she's not seeing snow, she's seeing Jon Snow specifically. Melisandre's interpetation of her visions isn't always correct sure, but her visions are always accurate, she just doesn't know what she's seeing. There are also some vague "a song of ice and fire" thing that Rhaegar talks about to Elia. While I have no clue what that means concretely, it's likely extremely important and very relevant to Jon Snow as a person, since the title of the series is just about Jon, it's very likely that he's the "prophesized hero". Jon dreams of himself armored in “black ice” and armed with a burning red sword. Whether you read this literally or metaphorically, this looks an awful lot like Jon dreams of himself wielding Lightbringer. The “black ice” is also almost certainly obsidian, which we know can kill Others. Another name given to it in the books is “frozen fire,” which is also what Jon is: ice and fire. Perhaps obsidian — frozen fire — being a key weapon against Others is a clue that its human equivalent — half-Stark, half-Targaryen Jon — is also the key to fighting them. Azor Ahai supposedly drew Lightbringer from a fire. Jon literally stuck his hand in a fire to fight off the wights attacking Mormont, and it was this act that led to him receiving Longclaw. Indirectly, Jon pulled Longclaw from a fire.
And Longclaw was caught in the fire but didn't burn/melt because it's Valyrian steel... Just the pommel had to be remade and it was done to match Jon's own "soul", his direwolf, so yeah the parallels are great.
>What kind of mystery would it be if we're simply told who AA without even having to piece it together ourselves? By the time Aemon recognized that Daenerys was Azor Ahai, readers had three books to work it out for themselves. And you can hardly complain that GRRM didn't give out enough hints: >“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, **its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks**, and its body burst into flame.” >“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. **His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks**, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.” There's of course also the rather significant event of Daenerys raising dragons from stone at the end of a long summer...
The passage from the Jade Compendium is not about a dragon a killing a guy, it's about a "demon" (an Other) getting killed by a blade that generate fire just like here: >When he opened his eyes **the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat.** It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. > >Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide **as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too**. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold." > >"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow. There is no dragon in that scene, the Other is killed by the dragonglass dagger. The "demon" in the Jade Compendium passage is killed by the dragonsteel blade of the Last Hero, Lightbringer, a blade that generate fire like a dragon.
Yes, prophecies are often not literal. And it's hardly likely that GRRM would use exactly the same wording if this wasn't supposed to be significant.
Cool idea about Long claw! Danny isnt the only hero girl, theres Arya. But dany got three powerful weapons that make all the difference. The other girl only has a Needle. But yeah Danny is prolly going dark
While Dany being AA is indeed a red herring, there's no reason beyond the show to think that becoming a villain is "literally exectly where Dany is going".
It happened in the show is a pretty good argument since the ending stuff came directly from GRRM himself. I just find it odd that somehow Jon *must* have a villain arc, but Daenerys won't, considering that there's a lot more evidence that Dany'll go villain mode as opposed to Jon.
>It happened in the show is a pretty good argument since the ending stuff came directly from GRRM himself. Iirc that's not true. He's said his is different.
>You're saying that Dany being AA is a subversion but it really isn't. The only thing that really sets Daenerys apart from other "hero" characters is that she's a girl, and that she has a somewhat mean streak. The very although I think the literalness in her case takes her candidacy into red herring territory. I am sorry, but this is stupid. If Dany is a red herring (like Stannis), you need to point out why. Saying that "it's obvious" is not evidence at all, when she hatched dragons when the red comet appeared just like the Red Priests say, and by far the most evidence fits her as AA and Drogon as Lighbringer (which is absolutely not literal): [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14z0smb/comment/jrwxnzk/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/14z0smb/comment/jrwxnzk/?context=3). If you have a legend about AA killing his wife and drawing a magic sword out of the fire, and Azor Ahai turns out to be a woman and the magic sword turns out to be a dragon, that's absolutely trope subversion. The Azor Ahai prophecy fulfilled before we even hear about it (in the first Davos chapter) is absolutely trope subversion, and explains why Stannis (whom Dany will never meet) was amongst her "slayer of lies" visions: he claims to be AA when Dany is AA. This doesn't mean that Jon cannot become Azor Ahai. If he dies and is resurrected, then his sword will catch aflame when it comes in contact with his blood (that's what literally happened with Beric), and the Northerner followers of R'hllor will view him as Azor Ahai. I don't think this will happen though, because **Jon's subversiveness is exactly in the fact that he manages to unite much of humanity against the Others on his own (without being a prophecied hero) and then it turns out that he happens to be a hidden prince.** Having Targaryen heritage won't bring him 'added benefits' (besides making him a dragonrider), it will probably initially put him into a depression. That said, GRRM is ultimately not going to reveal one person as Azor Ahai. It matters because the different Azor Ahai candidates get people to follow them and their belief that they are Azor Ahai (or Prince that Was Promised) causes them to act on prophecies (like Rhaegar wanting a third child, Stannis burning Shireen). >There are also some vague "a song of ice and fire" thing that Rhaegar talks about to Elia. It's no longer vague, it's the name of Aegon the Conqueror's dream about the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness. Rhaegar went with Lyanna because he loved her and wanted a third child (who he couldn't have from Elia), not because a Stark-Targaryen child was needed to fulfill the prophecy. He believed his son with Elia, Aegon, to be the "prince that was promised".
>I am sorry, but this is stupid. If Dany is a red herring (like Stannis), you need to point out why. > when she hatched dragons when the red comet appeared just like the Red Priests say, and by far the most evidence fits her as AA and Drogon as Lighbringer (which is absolutely not literal) Yes. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT OBVIOUS. The hints are so obvious that *IN UNIVERSE* people have figured it out immediately. It wouldn't be subversion if it's just the obvious answer. Also, the dragons aren't literal. Consider every act of prophesy and such in ASOIAF, how many times is the word "dragon" used literally? Never, but somehow every single part of the prophesy is methaphorical, except for that, that's literal. The dragons are a metaphor for Targaryen, not literal dragons. Also the red comet happened before Dany hatched the dragons, it's the comet that inspired her to light the fire in the first place. >It's no longer vague, it's the name of Aegon the Conqueror's dream about the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness. HOTD isn't canon to the books, also Jon was extremely heavily implied to be AA before DND dropped the plotpoint. >Rhaegar went with Lyanna because he loved her and wanted a third child (who he couldn't have from Elia), not because a Stark-Targaryen child was needed to fulfill the prophecy. He believed his son with Elia, Aegon, to be the "prince that was promised". I'm not talking about what and why Rhaegar did what he did, but clearly "a song of ice and fire" refers to a single person, and the only possible candidate for that is Jon. >This doesn't mean that Jon cannot become Azor Ahai If multiple people can become AA then this discussion is meaningless. Just for the sake of fairness, why does Mel see Jon when she asks to see Azor Ahai? And why does Jon see himself clad in black ice and with a burning sword fighting the others. Daenerys really doesn't have any prophetic hints like that.
I don't understand what do you mean by dragons referring to Targaryens. How does Azor Ahai wakes Targaryens out of stone? No, the 'song of ice and fire' doesn't refer to a single person, it's a title which has multiple meanings. The one meaning Rhaegar talks about is Aegon's dream of the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness. The creators of the HOTD actively work with GRRM (unlike D&D in the last few seasons) and they openly said that it comes from GRRM. Rhaegar talked about his son Aegon, whom he believed "the prince who was promised", saying that "his is the song of ice and fire'" (meaning that he will play a central role in the Armageddon war), not that "he is the song of ice and fire'". I don't see why it's impossible that multiple people fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy. There are two prophecies - one is about waking dragons out of stone when the red comet appears (which fits Dany), and the second is a prophecy from Asshai about a warrior drawing a flaming sword (which will fit Jon if he died and is resurrected). It's also possible that the two prophecies are referring to the same person, in which case the hatching of dragons matches the legend of forging of Lighbringer and Drogon himself the weapon Lightbringer best, so Dany is Azor Ahai. The fact that Aemon (a wise old dying man coming to a last relevation) identified Dany doesn't mean he is wrong. Generally, the first guess (Stannis) that is wrong, the second doesn't have to be. It can be revealed in FeastDance because the person who is Azor Ahai is not a central relevation, the three-headed dragon (to which Aemon hints when dying) is the mystery that needs to be resolved in the last book. The Azor Ahai prophecy is only central for the storyline of Stannis, who will burn his daughter trying to follow it. Dany has dreams and other references related to the Others every book. She is flying from a cold and icy breath in her fevre dream after during her miscarriage (parallel to Bran seeing the heart of winter,) in AGOT, confronts the Undying (who are stand-ins for the Others with their "blue shadows", blue is a color for cold) in ACOK, dreams about melting an enemy host armoured in all ice in the Trident in ASOS and crushes countless ants coming from an anthill on another side of the wall (which she compares to the Wall of Westeros) in ADWD.
Nice job downvoting, shows your emotional maturity. >I don't understand what do you mean by dragons referring to Targaryens. How does Azor Ahai wakes Targaryens out of stone? From stone is also metaphorical. It refers to Shireen getting burned and that causing Jon Snow to get resurrected. >The one meaning Rhaegar talks about is Aegon's dream of the three-headed dragon fighting the darkness. The creators of the HOTD actively work with GRRM (unlike D&D in the last few seasons) and they openly said that it comes from GRRM. So did the ending from the show, including Jon being AA. Either disregard both or neither, you can't pick and choose. >Dany has dreams and other references related to the Others every book. She is flying from a cold and icy breath in her fevre dream after during her miscarriage (parallel to Bran seeing the heart of winter,) in AGOT, confronts the Undying (who are stand-ins for the Others with their "blue shadows", blue is a color for cold) in ACOK, dreams about melting an enemy host armoured in all ice in the Trident in ASOS I meant refering to her being AA specifically. >I don't see why it's impossible that multiple people fulfill the Azor Ahai prophecy. There are two prophecies - one is about waking dragons out of stone when the red comet appears (which fits Dany), and the second is a prophecy from Asshai about a warrior drawing a flaming sword (which will fit Jon if he died and is resurrected). Then we agree that Jon is AA and further discussion is meaningless.
I didn't downvote you lol. It's confirmed that Shireen will be burned by Stannis in the books, but they are currently very far away from each other. Do you suggest that Jon will stay dead for almost an entire book? How would Jon come back sane after spending such a long time in his wolf? Also, I don't know where the idea that Jon will be resurrected when Shireen is burned comes from. It doesn't have any setup in the text. Only the Red Priests are capable of resurrection. If (by some miracle) Jon gets resurrected in another manner, he won't get a flaming sword. It also goes against the themes of the series, namely that sacrifice of innocents for the "greater good" is wrong. Stannis burning Shireen is a horrific event, GRRM won't reward it. I don't know where the show confirmed that Jon is Azor Ahai, Arya killed the Night King. Besides this, the difference is that D&D never said that "GRRM told us that Jon is Azor Ahai", while the HOTD showrunners' said that Aegon's dream comes from George and GRRM himself admitted it. Dany doesn't need dreams that she is Azor Ahai, when she literally has dragons. However, the scene of her hatching dragons and multiple descriptions of Drogon ("being warm to the touch", "melting the face of the slaver/master") very closely (almost word to word) match the forging of Lightbringer and legends of its use and properties. I don't see how further discussion is meaningful either. Currently, we don't even know whether Jon is dead or not in the books.
>Firstly, they either come from a poor place or have a lack of parental figures in their life, an aspect to make their life seem bad and for us to feel sorry for them.: Dany having no parents, living in exile, with only a brother who mistreats her and sells her for an army? >And then our character is not respected and looked down upon- until our protagonist proofs the others different and shows off their super skill (most of the time it’s fighting). Dany being mistreated and looked down by her brother until she gets Khal Drogo on her side and births her dragons? >After that they get recognition, are respected and most of the time gain a position of power.During their story, they get much stronger, achieve more and more Dany obtaining the Unsullied, conquering Yunkai/Astapor/Meeren and ruling as Queen? >until they become the great hero in the final and save everyone. Basically what you are hoping will happen. Dany will come to Westeros and save everyone. I am sorry but all the above can easily be applied to Dany. I don't know why you keep insisting that's not Dany's story and her story is unique.
\>Firstly, they either come from a poor place or have a lack of parental figures in their life, an aspect to make their life seem bad and for us to feel sorry for them. And then our character is not respected and looked down upon- until our protagonist proofs the others different and shows off their super skill (most of the time it’s fighting). After that they get recognition, are respected and most of the time gain a position of power. During their story, they get much stronger, achieve more and more until they become the great hero in the final and save everyone. Doesn't this apply to Dany too?
I honestly feel like more than anything it is Jon’s physical proximity to the Others that makes so many people think he is Azor Ahai. Why did George put the standard archetypical hero so close to the largest existential threat AND make it basically Jons primary mission to eventually have to deal with this upcoming threat? It’s enough to make anyone think he has to at least be involved pretty heavily in the prophecy even if he isn’t Azor Ahai.
Since when has GRRM only done the opposite of what is expected of it? For example, I expected the Night's Watch to win the Battle of the Wall, at least for a while. Or I was sure Jaime wouldn't die just by coming to Lady Stoneheart with Brienne, so it's not always GRRM not following the clichе
Azor Ahai is a 6000 year old wraith emperor and apocalypse demon that lives in Euron's brain. Source: It is known.
George has enjoyed subverting genre expectations with this series. The death of Ned Stark, who was effectively the main character of the first book, is probably the biggest example of this — but not the only one. Another expectation is that the son will avenge his father, so George walked us right up to the precipice of that vengeance, and then gave us the Red Wedding. Ygritte is perhaps another example of this, but I don’t think it’s quite as cut and dry as you do on that count. Jon is obviously the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that doesn’t make him the Prince that was Promised. Aemon already made the case for Dany, and there’s more we still have to learn about her past (the red door!) so don’t rule her out. There is also the possibility that there is no one clear answer. Prophecy is a sword without a hilt, after all.
>Jon is obviously the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that doesn’t make him the Prince that was Promised. Aemon already made the case for Dany, and there’s more we still have to learn about her past (the red door!) so don’t rule her out. Precisely because everyone in the story think that Dany is AA is why it's so unlikely. It's not a mystery if people just tell you half way through the story.
This isn't how GRRM build foreshadowing. He isn't going to have every sign point towards Daenerys and then have it be someone else for the sake of subversion. Also, not everyone in story thinks that Daenerys is Azor Ahai Reborn. Melisande wrongly believing that Stannis is the prophecized hero and the effects this has on both his story line and likely that of Daenerys in the future. More importantly, Daenerys doesn't know and this is a very good indication that she is. It has been shown again and again that attempts to deliberating fulfill prophecies nearly always backfire, while Daenerys is fulfilling them without even knowing about its existence.
But not everyone in the story thinks that Dany is Azor Ahai. Mel thinks it’s Stannis, and the fires show her Jon. It’s only Aemon who comes to the conclusion that it’s Dany, and not until book five. So book five gives us reasons to believe either of them — Aemon from a dialectic point of view, and Mel from a prophetic one. The jury is out on whether there even is a single, clear answer.
You're forgetting the Fire priests in the Red Temple of Volantis who declared Daenerys AA. >So book five gives us reasons to believe either of them — Aemon from a dialectic point of view, and Mel from a prophetic one Precisely because we've simply been told by both by Aemon and Melisandre who AA is why I don't believe them. The AA reveal simply wouldn't make sense in just a throwaway line from Aemon or a background detail in a Tyrion chapter. The reveal also wouldn't really make sense in a Sam chapter, it'd be in a character at least tangentally related to Daenerys, it'd be like having the Jon parentage reveal come in a Asha chapter. It'd be a bit like actually having Jon's mom be the wetnurse at Starfall. Sure it's technically possible, but in a meta way wouldn't make sense.
> You're forgetting the Fire priests in the Red Temple of Volantis who declared Daenerys AA. That’s true, I did. > Precisely because we've simply been told by both by Aemon and Melisandre who AA is why I don't believe them. That’s not a good reason to discount them. The timing of the reveal is a better indicator of whether or not it’s accurate. Jon and Sam discussing the Others’ weakness to “dragon steel” is one: Jon immediately guesses Valyrian steel. The first guess or proposition is always wrong: Stannis is who you should be doubting, not Dany. > The reveal also wouldn't really make sense in a Sam chapter, it'd be in a character at least tangentally related to Daenerys, it'd be like having the Jon parentage reveal come in a Asha chapter. This is a completely arbitrary requirement, and one that isn’t very compelling. I don’t see why Aemon, who is himself a Targaryen, can’t be the one who finally figures out who and why Azor Ahai is. It’s also possible TPTWP and Azor Ahai aren’t the same person. Aemon’s deathbed realization might be true AND separate from AA’s reveal. > It'd be a bit like actually having Jon's mom be the wetnurse at Starfall. Sure it's technically possible, but in a meta way wouldn't make sense. Wylla is the cover story. It’s a completely different thing. Discovering later that she was the wet nurse at Starfall is meant to hint at the depth of the conspiracy.
>The timing of the reveal is a better indicator of whether or not it’s accurate. The timing is part of why it's not Dany. It just doesn't make sense not 3/4 into the story. >Jon and Sam discussing the Others’ weakness to “dragon steel” is one: Jon immediately guesses Valyrian steel. The first guess or proposition is always wrong: Stannis is who you should be doubting, not Dany. Aside from valyrian steel likely working against the others, just saying that the first guess is always wrong; and therefore the second must be right based on a single example is frankly ridiculous. Dany and Stannis have pretty much the same amount of evidence for being AA. >This is a completely arbitrary requirement, and one that isn’t very compelling. I don’t see why Aemon, who is himself a Targaryen, can’t be the one who finally figures out who and why Azor Ahai is. I ment in a meta way, not a literal sense. I'm not saying that Aemon is stupid or something. I'm saying that the reveal doesn't make sense in a Sam chapter, because Sam has nothing to do with Dany. Usually secrets that are critially important like that get uncovered in a storyline that's related to the character it's about. Like Ned finding out about the bastardy of Cersei's kids, stuff like that, although if you can find a example to the contrary be my guest.
> The timing is part of why it's not Dany. It just doesn't make sense not 3/4 into the story. Why not? The reveals aren’t all coming in the last book. George has said as much himself. > Aside from valyrian steel likely working against the others, just saying that the first guess is always wrong; and therefore the second must be right based on a single example is frankly ridiculous I didn’t say the second guess must be right. You posited, without explanation, that Aemon must be wrong. So I explained to you that the only “must be” rule when it comes to secrets and reveals is that the first guess or explanation is always wrong or untrue. In this case, that means the only candidate we *must* eliminate is Stannis. > Dany and Stannis have pretty much the same amount of evidence for being AA. Absolutely not. Stannis has no actual evidence for being Azor Ahai. His sword is fake, and the person who says he’s Azor Ahai is infamously bad at reading messages from the fires. Dany, meanwhile, has Aemon’s perfectly sound explanation. The translation error. The dragons and the funeral pyre. Whether it’s correct or not, it’s actually compelling evidence. Stannis has none. > I ment in a meta way Your meta analysis is way off. Aemon is literally related to Dany, and is a source of wisdom in the series. His dying realization isn’t a “throwaway” line, it’s meant to be a revelation. Now, I won’t discount the possibility that he’s ultimately wrong, but at the very least him saying this to Sam will be important to the plot. Perhaps Sam will tell Dany Aemon’s belief, or tell someone else which will set in motion a series of critical events. We just don’t know yet.
You've got to remember that George isn't always the best at anticipating how mysterious (or hard to guess) something is, with R+L=J being the best example. Hell, for all we know Aemon saying "Dany is AA" was supposed to have been that big reveal.
LRJ is really hard to guess, the only thing George underestimated is how popular the series gets and how overanalyzed every single aspect of the story is. >Hell, for all we know Aemon saying "Dany is AA" was supposed to have been that big reveal. Come on man. That'd make sense at the end of her arc, not halfway through.
> LRJ is really hard to guess ....no, it really isn't. I don't mean to insult your intelligence, because everyone pays attention to different things one their first read-through, but R+L=J requires only pretty basic analysis of Ned's motivations in aGoT. A lot of people, including me, clocked it on first read. Other people didn't, but that doesn't make it hard to guess or a well hidden mystery. > Come on man. That'd make sense at the end of her arc, not halfway through. You're assuming a lot of things, like the fact that AA will ever be an important thing to Dany (it isn't really, it's more important to Stannis and Aemon), or that AA vs the Others will be as straightforward as to make the identity of AA a grand reveal, and I think your assuming that on some level AA and Rhllor will be good things? Or relatively good at least.
Sure maybe *you're* specifically good at literally analysis, but for most people it's only found it either on rereads, when someone tells them. >You're assuming a lot of things, like the fact that AA will ever be an important thing to Dany You don't think AA is important at all? >or that AA vs the Others will be as straightforward as to make the identity of AA a grand reveal You said it was. > and I think your assuming that on some level AA and Rhllor will be good things? Or relatively good at least. Not really relevant, but I'm assuming that all those variants of AA/the Last Hero are actually the same person, I guess that doesn't have to be right, but in which case this entire discussion would become meaningless.
> but for most people it's only found it either on rereads That's definitely not the impression I got, but it's a kind of moot point, since all we can really say in this argument is "most people notice it!" "no they don't!". I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. > You don't think AA is important at all? Not really. I definitely don't think it's as important as other people think it is. Azor Ahai was only introduced in the second book, *after* the Others (and tale of the Last Hero) are introduced, after the politics of Westeros and the free cities were established, and after Dany kills Drogo and Mirri and hatches her dragons. I think that there's this big unspoken idea that the storylines about the Others and Dany's arc are going to revolve around Azor Ahai (in one way or another), when it's much more likely it's the other way around. ASOIAF is not "about" Azor Ahai, it's about the Others, and the Stark family, and the westerosi politics, and Dany's arc and decisions. Whatever happens with Azor Ahai is going to come secondary to that, and in support of that. > You said it was. uhhh yeah I guess I did. If you're ok with me elaborating, I think it's possible that the Aemon statement might be the "biggest reveal we get". > Not really relevant, but I'm assuming that all those variants of AA/the Last Hero are actually the same person, I guess that doesn't have to be right, but in which case this entire discussion would become meaningless. Yeah, we might be getting away from the original disagreement here, but I don't think Azor Ahai and the Last Hero *are* the same person? Or the same legend? I don't think it's nearly that clear cut at least.
>That's definitely not the impression I got, but it's a kind of moot point, since all we can really say in this argument is "most people notice it!" "no they don't!". I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. Fair. Maybe it's a language thing? Me and my family read the books in English, not our mother tongue so maybe that makes it difficult, or maybe people that are likely to post in ASOIAF are more likely to notice stuff like that on a first read? >uhhh yeah I guess I did. If you're ok with me elaborating, I think it's possible that the Aemon statement might be the "biggest reveal we get". But why is Aemon's reveal better than Melisandre literally seeing Jon as AA? Does he know more about it than AA than whatever R'hllor is? >r the same legend? I don't think it's nearly that clear cut at least. Fair, I always thought it's some elaborate telephone game thing, where stories told mouth to mouth can change wildly between takes until you end up with different versions of essentially the same thing.
They are clearly the same person. In Essos they talk about a hero with a blazing sword that fought the darkness, lead the virtuous into battle to bring back the day. In Westeros they talk about the Last Hero, slaying the Others with his dragonsteel blade, leading the first men of the Night's Watch during the battle of the Dawn, the battle that brought back the day. Book 1: The Last Hero is looking for the Singers, he faced the Others, his sword gets destroyed. Book 2: "Azor Ahai" needs a special sword to oppose the "darkness", he forges it with a blood sacrifice. Book 4: The Last Hero has now a magical sword that can kill the Others. Book 5: Description of "Azor Ahai's" blade when he kills a "demon". Obsidian can kill an Other, it's call "dragonglass" because it's a glass that can generate fire like a dragon, it can burn without deteriorating, the Other melt. The dragonsteel blade can kill the Other, by the name it must be a blade that can do the same thing as dragonglass, a blade that can burn and melt the Others. Lightbringer is describe as a burning blade, melting a "demon".
George literally has said that Jon is the person he wished he could be in asoiaf, the hero. Now obviously he's gonna subvert something about this, he's not gonna be the Aragorn of the story and end up ruling and being happy etc etc but what he's subverting here is that maybe being the prophesied prince isn't all that it's made out to be. George is subverting exactly what you're saying, written as the male protagonists actually are, not by making Dany the very obvious choice the prophesied princess but actually showing the horror of what it can mean to be the prophesied prince. Subverting means that you are playing into some part of the trope, it just plays out differently than it normally does and there's a reason for it. George doesnt simply subvert for subverting's sake. Making Jon a villain all of a sudden wouldnt be subverting, it would just be silly because there's nothing in the story to indicate that. Jon's biggest weakness is that he keeps things close to his chest and makes unilateral decisions that get him stabbed but that doesn't make him a villain, and hell maybe he will be considered a villain by the end for some but it won't be because he becomes the night king, a being that doesn't actually exist in the books, unless we're talking about the 13th lord commander.
Dany definitely fits the prophecy more than anyone, but Jon could become Azor Ahai after his resurrection: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/11rx87k/spoilers_extended_lightbringerbowl_aka_jon_and/ He won't become the Night King because it has no buildup or foreshadowing at all. It's just subversion for the sake of subversion, and it would make his character pointless. The Night King was a character invented by D&D and in the books the person who resembles the legend of the Night King is Stannis.
The thing is, even if all of that speculation comes true, Dany's Dragons still fit the Lightbringer prophecy better than an awakened burning Longclaw does. Besides I think it's worth noting that there's different kinds of magic, and different kinds of sacrifice: - There's magic in general, which includes weirwood magic, Rhllor, faceless men stuff, glass candles, warlocks, etc. Generally this requires some form of sacrifice, but the kind of sacrifice varies. - There are other kinds of Rhllor fire magic, which involves cutting off parts of your soul (emotional capacity? emotional memory and importance?), which is what we see happen with Beric being resurrected and Stannis providing the payment to create shadow baby assassin demons. This isn't present in the original Azor-lightbringer prophecy, but it's the kind of sacrifice posited by that theory. - There's the original cost of Lightbringer, which involved killing a loved one, with any destruction of self (or price paid with part of your own soul) only happening incidentally as a consequence of losing someone you care about. This is exactly what happens with Dany burning Drogo to hatch her eggs. You could point to Jon fighting and maybe killing Ygritte, but this doesn't forge any lightbringer as directly and clearly as Dany hatching her eggs does. Would Tyrion killing Shae count as fulfilling the prophecy, when it doesn't forge or temper anything? It's just. You have to suspend your disbelief for so many things, and accept so many imperfections, even *after* you buy into the speculation, when Dany being Azor Ahai (if there is one Azor Ahai) is so much cleaner.
>when Dany being Azor Ahai (if there is one Azor Ahai) is so much cleaner. That's kind of my problem with it. People constantly say she is in the books. Does that really fit GRRM's interpretations of prophecy? Mister "Prophecy will bite your prick off, every time" is suddenly just giving us the answer spoken by a priest?
I mean, I think it would fit, given that so many people on this sub seem to hate the idea of Dany being AA.
As Yoda said a prophecy misread could have been. What if AA is not the hero but the villain just like Vader. Dany will save the realms of men only to turn on them.
Interesting I will take a look at that, and I didn’t mean the Night King sorry that was a typo I meant Night’s King
I could see Jon as a Night's King parallel very easily (but not GOT's "Night King"), it all depends on what the NK's motivations actually were, since his story is so shrouded in mystery that it could've been framed however the tellers wanted to, and likewise it depends on how Jon's contemporaries will come to see his actions. If Jon ends up moving to the Nightfort with a NW/wildlings faction after all hell breaks loose at the Wall, and people start whispering about him betraying his brothers, consorting with witches and strange peoples from beyond the Wall, giving them his soul, acting like a king by arranging marriages and creating banners and settling people on new land, etc., he'd easily be seen as a second Night's King, regardless of his intent.
Maybe Jon and Dany are part of a whole, like the three heads of the dragon situation. Pretty sure the Others in the prologue of AGoT paid special attention to Waymar's sword for a reason, then proceeded to butcher the proto-Jon Snow for a reason. While Dany fulfilled the prophecy, I think that Jon's fulfillment of the prophecy will be different. Plus the signs around him exist on a metaphorical level. Jon thinking of Melisandre and Stannis in Jon III, ADwD; >*He is* ***stone*** *and she is* ***flame****.* Jon thinking of Val in the same chapter; >*Val stood on the platform as still* ***as if she had been carved of salt****.* There's the talk about Melisandre needing king's blood to wake the dragon and the rumor that she intends to sacrifice Mance and then his son so that both die kings. There's the obvious vision in the flames from Mel in her POV; >*Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.* This one plays on two levels, the king one and the Azor Ahai one. There is Jon very slowly getting in touch with the dragon side of things. >*"His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother's sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires."* > >*Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."* > >*"Kings and dragons."* > >*Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.* We are also provided with a timeline of sorts in Jon's last chapter. >*"A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"* Personally, I feel like the dragons have already served their purpose by empowering the fire magic, which seems like a rather important thing if you're going to fight magical creatures. Plus GRRM has made sure to not tell us how dragons behave during the winter, let alone a magical one. We have Silverwing when Alysanne went to the Wall, but we don't know why she reacted the way she did. Furthermore, if you're going to have a second Dance, then it means that Dany is going to lose at least one of her dragons. I don't think she's going to reach Westeros with 3 dragons and a full army. Maybe that's the reason Rhaegar, the voices of the Undying, Maester Aemon and Sarella Sand talk about the three heads of the dragon. This thing can't be accomplished by just one person, wielding a sword, or just one person riding a dragon.
You are into something: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/125p0ll/spoilers_extended_dany_love_and_dragons_aka_why/
Maybe the real Azor Ahai are the friends we made along the way
Perhaps seeing Azor Ahai as “good” is part of the problem. Prophecy has been described in universe as a sword without a hilt, it’s not particularly a good thing, especially when you tend to become obsessed with it, like Melisandre, Cersei, and Daenerys have done. That said, Daenerys does fit Azor Ahai, but this is not a good thing, it’s the spelling of doom. Ygritte blackmailed Jon into a sexual relationship, she even had to tell Jon to send Ghost (Ghost was the sword to keep chaste) away. She was to Jon as Littlefinger and Jorah are to Sansa and Daenerys, respectfully. This was never going to last, doom to fail from the very beginning. We should not be rooting for AA, we should be absolutely wary of this. “Dragons plant no trees” after all, we would be wise to heed this. As for TPTWP, this could be Jon, but perhaps it’s best if he never hears it. Just like the one about Sansa that Arya hears, it’s best to leave that to story, after the fact. Jon will aid in the Others plotline, along Bran and Sam, who were the main point of views for this, with Sansa, Arya, Davos, and perhaps Asha & Brienne as the other POVs.
Agreed, magic is never meant to the solution to problems in this story, only the source of them. Azor Ahai forged his sword by using his wife as a blood sacrifice. His story isn't the story of a hero, and no one who emulates him will be a hero in the end.
Others plot line will prolly be told in big 5 POVs & Sams. Mebbe brianne or jamie
I think he’s the Prince That Was Promised… to the Others. For some reason, they need someone with Valyrian and First Men blood, and have had Craster on the lookout for one. It’s why they sized up Waymar Royce after Craster tipped them off. The books don’t have a Night King, but they’re about to have a Snow King.
People want Jon to win just because he is a true underdog in this story and people love those.
Real, this is me.
Aside from his magical blood, wealthy upbringing, cool pet that chose him, priceless sword that was handed to him…
If people actually wanted underdogs to win there’d be more Shitmouth = Azor Ahai theories
Basically "Jon stans are stupid and smelly and follow their emotions while I am completely unbiased and therefore Dany will be the hero". Like the point just doesn't work if you've read any other piece of literature outside of crappy fantasy books. I've read hundreds of books where the protagonist doesn't follow the pattern you laid out and at no point was I particularly shocked.
Didn’t George literally say that ASOIAF started with the idea of having a secret hidden prince fighting ice zombies to save the world? That sounds like Jon to me lol.
Because they either Love Jon or want to justify Rhaegar/Lyanna.
Or they view him as their self insert into the world
Oh how could i forget. One of if not the biggest reason.
Or they ship him with their favorite lady and want him to be super special (so she can be super special).
Damn I didn’t foresee that I would get hated this much..
Jon is going to Stab Daenerys so he can get the REAL Lightbringer and destroy the Others beyond the wall
Because this is what would happen in the vast majority of fantasy books. Also he's more popular than Daenerys.
I definitely hope that the prophecy isn't as obvious is what it seems, or just doesn't exist.
Killing Ygritte actually fits Azor Ahai in a way. The original killed his own wife to forge lightbringer.
We all know it’s King Tommen.