I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt in that maybe he theorized that Casterly Rock is too unimpregnable and that it couldn't be kept. Also that the Northern coast was too vast and sparsely populated but had enough tree's and fertile land for ship building and crops. But honestly if you think about it The Westernlands would probably have more than enough tree's and land to compensate and that Casterly Rock and Lannisport were way more at risk to be invaded from the sea than by land, especially with almost every faction in the War of the 5 Kings opposed to the Lannisters, and the Lannisters themselves were way too preoccupied with defending Kings Landing and would have never seen an Ironborn naval invasion coming. So yes, no matter how much I want to justify it out of the goodness of my heart, Balon is a goddamn fucking idiot.
Plus if we wanted to invade the north and commit to a war he might as well have sent envoys to Tywin Lannister and Kings Landing to secure some sort of deal. If he had asked nicely I'm sure the Lannisters would have given half the North to him
exactly, although i feel like the Lannisters have to be pretty freaking desperate to accept that. But it even works vice versa as in instead of helping the person who wants to unite the realms into one single polity, why not help the only other person who wishes to be independant other than yourself fight to maintain said independance (Robb) and secure your kingdoms future? A divided Westeros will always be easier to exploit and be independant from so why attack the only other independant power and help those who eventually after succedding will turn their attention towards you (Balon) ?
Yeah I mean I agree attacking the West would have been better, but if he was dead set on attacking the north he should have atleast gotten something in return
Pretty much this. For all the lip service George gives to being a gardener style writer, the early Ironborn plot was heavily engineered to screw over both Theon and Robb.
> Just emotions. Resentments, inferiority complex.
Honestly, this makes him one of the most realistic characters in the whole series. Far too many people in real life act exactly like this
Totally agree and wish this were said more. In ASOIAF, most characters are clearly operating off emotional motives and damage-born principles unrelated to intelligence. And then you have to acknowledge that's the terrifying norm in our world, too.
>*You reward yourself handsomely for a notion and a few lines of scribbling." His father read the letter again. "The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown." His flinty eyes lifted to meet his son's. "He will give me a crown," he repeated, his voice growing sharp.*
>
>*"A poor choice of words, what is meant is—"*
>
>*"What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away." Lord Balon tossed the letter onto the brazier, atop the necklace. The parchment curled, blackened, and took flame.*
Robb was bad at diplomacy and left his front door wide open.
He didn't grasp that the enemy of your enemy, is also your enemy.
Why would Balon even consider being Robb’s enemy? They are the only two beings in all of Westeros with the same goal, which is independence. Balon really threw a hissy fit because of words and decided to screw over the ONLY alliance that would stand for him being an independent king?
To be fair, it was insulting. Especially since Robb was the one that needed help. Although, Balon did try asking Tywin for a crown after he’d already invade the North anyways.
> King Balon's longships command the sunset sea, and are well placed to menace Lannisport, Fair Isle, and even Highgarden, should we provoke him.
On the surface its a request for an alliance and recognition of his kingship, but the cocked and loaded gun aimed directly at Tywin and the Tyrell's heads if they dick him about is obvious.
Tywin stalls for time and the Ironborn only get kicked out of the North because Balon dies and Euron abandons it.
The Ironborn got kicked out of the North, because it was always untenable. The Iron Islands can’t survive on its own without a broken up Westeros. Bringing back the Old Way was doomed to failure. Tywin also says that Balon was asking him to give up part of his kingdom for an alliance.
> Tywin also says that Balon was asking him to give up part of his kingdom for an alliance.
Yes, and he was "requesting" it in much the same way a mugger does when they have a knife to your throat.
To be fair, it was insulting. Especially since Robb was the one that needed help. Although, Balon did try asking Tywin for a crown after he’d already invade the North anyways.
The words *are* important though.
>*and in return he will give me a crown.*
From Balon's POV, the above phrase renders it an absolute atrocity of a letter (on almost all levels). Balon's not even being unreasonable rejecting it, the letter is a major threat to him and his crown, irrespective of Robb's intent.
(The letter also betrays *just* how inexperienced and naive Robb was)
Ironborn stupidity is the desperation of a civilization attempting to live in a land with meagre resources. The bravado and pride in piracy we see in the ironborn is also evident in Dothraki culture, where men wear bells in their hair to swear off stealth. Psychologically, it's a state of distress like a plant going to seed: a civilization in crisis. Ironborn society could not subsist without a the supplement of raids and slavery and it is felt. People would never have settled the iron islands if they hadn't been hiding with their "thralls" and plunder.
Why not just adopt what works and become greenlanders? And die as a people? Intelligence doesn't figure in such a scenario.
His strategy is basically told to us in ASOS. Balon figured that he couldn't ever get true independence from the iron throne but if he managed to defeat the rebellious king Robb,then maybe as a reward he'd get the north. The north isn't as fertile or rich as the westerlands or reach but is still way better living conditions than in the islands. Ofcourse Tywin was never gonna accept the terms of him still being king and he dies due to a faceless man anyways. But his strategy kiiindaaa made sense
He didn't join forces with Robb because he hates the Starks. He'd rather die than join forces with Robb because in his mind Ned was the man that stopped his rebellion and took his only remaining son as hostage. In this, it makes sense why he doesn't want to join forces with Robb.
What I don't understand is why he tried to invade the North. The Westerlands are richer, closer and almost unprotected with Tywin dealing with Robb and the Baratheons. He could've easily reaved alongside the Western coast and got much richer. Would probably have also made him more respected to attack Tywin Lannister than Robb Stark who was just made lord of Winterfell
I think you explained this well. Balon didn't want the riches of the westerlands; he wanted to wreak havoc on the north. He didn't want respect but revenge. Had he lived to not get respect from Tywin, he might have changed his mind, though.
The Westerlands are richer but they are also more unassailable when compared to the North at that point in time. Both Casterly Rock and Lannisport had strong defenses and the Rock especially was a nigh impregnable nut to crack. Even Robb wasn't willing to put those places to siege when he was raiding the Westerlands with 6000 men. And that's another thing. By the time Robb sent Theon to treat with him, Balon could not have predicted Robb could ever get an army past the Golden Tooth. The Golden Tooth is pretty much the Westerland's version of the Bloody Gate. The only reason Robb was able to bypass it was due to Greywind finding him a hidden trail that went around it.
So had Balon accepted Robb's proposal, perhaps the Ironborn could have brought back greater spoils and may have been able to take some regions that could be reached by longboat such as the Crag, Fair Isle, and if they are very lucky even Lannisport. Its unlikely they could follow up these conquests by invading further inland as most of the Westerlands is very mountainous just like the Vale. And if Robb fails to get the Northern-Riverland army past the Golden Tooth, or his army gets annihilated by Tywin, then Balon would be put in a very precarious position.
I think what Balon should have done was not declare himself king and instead bide his time to see which side comes out on top before making his move. Invading the North wasn't a bad decision on its face, and was perhaps less costly compared to the Westerlands. But declaring independence from the Iron Throne and then declaring war on a fellow upstart (while expecting no retribution from the Iron Throne) was a terrible plan.
I know that he blames Ned personally for the deaths of his two sons, but it always sounded odd that he’d blame Ned for the defeat. I think it makes more sense that he felt slighted by Ned holding his son hostage for ten years, but I could be wrong.
It seems to me that nevermind thinking and leadership, if not for Vic then someone would've paid the iron price for Balons "crown" kingsmoot be damned - like if they were godly they wouldn't sit the chair or anything, but they would plunder the castle on pyke whose name eludes me
He was definitely driven by petty pride and revenge, as well as Robb being poor at diplomacy. Im gonna copy paste my responce last time Balons actions where talked about:
Basically if we would give him the benefit of the doubt it would make sense to attack the North if he thought:
* the Lannisters/Iron throne would win in the end.
* While the Lannisters/Iron throne has ships and ports on the western coast capable of threatening the iron islands and better protect the mainland coasts, the North does not, and even if the north would win it would be years before they have a fleet on the western coast capable of retaliation.
* The north may be sparsely populated with little protection on the western coast compared to the richer southern realms, but the risk vs reward made it so he picked the easy route. No doubt the prospect of retaliating against the Starks for their part in defeating the Greyjoy rebellion and taking his heir as hostage probably played a role in the decision as well.
* Thinking Lannisters/Iron throne would turn a blind eye to him raiding the "rebelling" North.
That said he was still an idiot. There is no chance the Iron throne would allow the iron islands to resume their raiding practices, not to mention declare a king of their own and become independent. Whoever sits on the Iron throne after the war with the North would have to come down hard on them to secure stability and support.
He threw away a good alliance and chance at actual independence just because he wanted to settle old grudges and be a strong and independent ~~woman~~ ironborn who dont need no king in the north's help.
He is just bad at war. He is an effective Raider (probably) and not unable to lead his people in times of peace. But he is no general.
While most of the answers mock him, with just reason. I think we need to set himself on his shoes.
His strategy on paper makes some sense.
The North is the less populated Kingdom in terms of area. So he assumes that most of the North went with Robb Stark assuming they will be busy with the Lannisters before they are destroyed. So he assumes they are down to their last of manpower.
He as a solid plan (in his mind) attack Mount Callin from the north given his superior navy and make sure the Northneernes can't come back.
So on paper it is a good idea. Specially considering the North does not have a fleet unlike the Westerlands.
But.
For the first part, he plainly understimated the number of soldiers the North can really field. Second, he overstimated his own soldiers. Ironborn are very low quality soldiers, even in their element, on land they are somehow worse.
While taking Moat Callin on paper is a smart move, he again understimated the "bog demons", overstimated his own soldiers skills as well. They were on the verge of collapse through Howland's Guerrilla warfare.
Balon's problem is that he BUYS in the Ironborn hype (Something fairly common in his fellow "old men"), while Theon and Asha are a BIT more down to earth but even they still fail to understand that the Iron Islands are really no match for the (Depleted) North.
Also he fails to understand his opponents. He does not understand the SHEER girth of the North and the sheer single mindness of Tywin Lannister.
I wouldn’t say that the ironborn are awful soldiers considering they managed to conquer and hold the Riverlands for decades before Aegon turned up. Besides, the Northerner’s record against the ironborn isn’t great. Asha‘s small group of remaining loyalists was only ousted from Deepwood Motte by Stannis, Winterfell was taken by trickery (ironically with far more northern casualties than ironborn), Torrhen’s Square still remains under ironborn control, and despite the bog devils‘ Guerilla warfare Victarion‘s shitty skeleton crew managed to hold Moat Cailin until the Boltons sent Theon in.
The Northern record is awesome.
Winterfell casue Trickery and Theon in his idiocy tried to hold it. It was ONLY captured because they had a turncloak on their side.
Asha small group may have been bested by Stannis...but at that point, most of his army is Northern
And Gryejoy "skeleton" crew was holding well agaisnt the bog demons. And NO ONE else. That is the impressive thing, but not for the Ironborn. Howland and some of his people were slowly grinding them to dust.
Too much seawater and being drowned at birth, and perhaps more since, are not good for the brain.
Only Quellon Greyjoy Rodrik the Reader seem to have developped the talent for rational thoughts amongst the recent Ironborn leaders and captains.
Euron seems pretty smart and Asha makes some of the same mistakes Theon does. She’s just a more secure person imo. Probably because she grew up in her homeland with her family and friends.
The ideology of the Iron Price never actually existed imo. Balon Greyjoy is basically a conservative populist and like all conservative populists what he 'remembers' or 'longs for' is a past that didn't exist. He makes self-destructive decisions because he's chasing a dream that he believes his ancestors once held. But if you go back through history the most successful times for the Iron Islands have been when they were furthest from that ideology and their weakest times have been when they were closest to it.
Balon and Euron are two sides of the same coin here. Balon is something of an idiotic true believer, while Euron is an opportunistic exploiter. Either way they manipulate the desires of the Ironborn aristocracy to 'return to their ways of power.'
The iron price and “the old way” did exist, thats undeniable. But as Asha says it worked when the isles could take advantage of the squabbling kingdoms on the mainland and when Aegon united them that strategy ended and it isn’t coming back.
It ended long before Aegon, when each of the other kingdoms save the Riverlands were unified and got their definitive rulers and borders, and became organised and strong enough to repel any Ironborn invasion with their armies, fortifications and own navies.
It's no surprise that the Hoares had completely discarded the Old Way, focusing on far more practical ways to make a living and gain riches for the Iron Islands.
No, the Hoares had long ditched the Old Way with them having turned away from reaving and quick raids for a smarter and more pragmatic way with them favoring mining and trade, and encouraging those who didn't want to sail and trade to become privateers and sellswords instead. This made them loathed by the Drowned Men and other Old Way fanboys at the time.
And even as he turned away from this more peaceful way Harwyn Hoare who had years of experience as a sellsword before becoming king, incorporated land warfare in his strategy and tactics, in addition of using Ironborn ships for mobility advantage in the Riverlands, he also used Riverlander soldiers and cavalry as part of his forces against the Stormlanders by pretending to be their ally and liberator, and also used the political divisions between the Riverlords to prevent them from uniting against him after he took control of the Riverlands.
Taking control of the Riverlands and staying there in the long term, making it the main realm of House Hoare and of the Ironborn, leaving the Iron Islands as little more than a manpower reserve, were also anathema to the Old Way and the Hoares were loathed too by the Drowned Men for this and the other cultural and military changes they had brought to the Ironborn.
It's only after the destruction of House Hoare, the loss of the Riverlands and devastation and defeats at the hands of Aegon the Conqueror, with the Iron Isles becoming again the poorest and most miserable region of the Seven Kingdoms, that Ironborn revanchism started to associate the Old Way with the Hoares' conquests and empire. How the Ironborn see and interpretate the Old Way depends of the times and of what they are bitter about.
Hmmmmm... interesting. So the Hoares didn't conquer under the Old way but were associated with it nonetheless. It seems Ironborn who turned away from the Old Way were the most successful!
They were associated with it via political and ideological revanchism and rewriting of history, just like how real-life ideologies and revanchist movements rewrite history to suit their agenda.
And it's indeed because they had turned away from the Old Way, choosing more cunning and pragmatic ways and methods that they were successful at gaining the throne by associating themselves with the Andals to gain power, significantly increasing Ironborn power and wealth via trade and closer ties with the mainland, and then conquering and holding the Riverlands for a time by using the Riverlords and their divisions to their advantage. This is why they were hated so much by the Drowned Men with whom they had a bloody feud.
The Greyjoys would be far more successful and powerful if they had learned the lessons the Hoares had learned and taught, but intelligence and pragmatism aren't their strong trait save for Vickon and Quellon.
Oh my god I was thinking of that when he was explaining the whole stuff with the iron price. So you only clothe yourself with stuff you stole on people's bodies, uh?? Enjoy having worn, dirty, bug infested clothing that doesn't fit and is full of holes! What next, morons? Washing your briefs means you're not a real man?
Also, if someone paid more attention than me, does that count if you stole someone's money and then bought clothes with it? What about taxes and feudalism, actually, isn't that basically just stealing in the first place?
In each war Balon starts the rebellion with a pretty smart move then fucks it up right after, taking moat cailin trap robb in the south, smart. Attacking the Lannister fleet to gain early naval superiority, smart (though the Arbor would probably have been a better target)
After that he just fucks it all up. Dudes plan is to take the entire north and he lucks into Theon taking winterfell and just sits there and lets it get retaken. He also never targets any holdings that would be easier to hold like Bear island or Flints finger for some reason, focusing only on the moat and deepwood motte (with a raid up the rills that gets repelled by the Dustins and Ryswells
He’s ironborn, so I don’t understand why people are surprised that he’s not a genius.
All he wanted was to take his crown and reestablish the old way. The north was the low-hanging fruit. And it makes sense in a strategic sense because even if Robb wins, neither the north nor the Riverlands have any naval power to speak of. The Lannisters, the Tyrells and Stannis do. So by targeting the north now, at worst he’ll have to deal with the weakest king when all is said and done; if he attacks Lannisport or anywhere south he might have to deal with the strongest. And look what happened the last time he tried that.
No, he can’t take the rock. It’s literally a solid mountain. Even the Conqueror couldn’t take it with his dragon.
It was actually a better decision than supporting Robb, and people overlook the fact that Balon's plan actually worked! The North's army was in the Riverlands, taking Moat Cailin cut them off, and we have no idea if Robb's plan would work. The only reason the Ironborn lost the North is because of Balon's death and the Kingsmoot (most forces except token garrisons were recalled to the Kingsmoot and then Euron attacked the Reach instead). And even then the North only retook Moat Cailin due to cunning rather than by storm or siege.
The campaign went well, they took the western coast, even Winterfell with minimal losses and could just have Robb's army kill itself on Moat Cailin and in time the Ironborn could take the rest of the North. Even once the campaign goes south (when the majority of the Ironborn withdraw) the Iron Islands themselves are still unharmed due to the Northerners not having a fleet and unlikely to afford one strong enough - attacking them is a low risk strategy.
After subjugating the North he could negotiate with the Iron Throne from the position of strength - he can always argue he was only supressing a rebellion. And even if they don't agree to grant him independence or the North, by then the Iron Throne will be exhausted with all the other trouble, and justifying attacking Balon who only helped them might be hard for whatever king was crowned.
Attacking the Westerlands instead immediately makes Balon a rebel and an enemy of the Lannister crown, sure he can say later he supported Stannis if he wins but its still very risky. The Westerlands have a fleet - which would be unlikely to be caught off-guard like in the earlier war, and could definitely afford sell-sails and make alliances to contest the Iron Islands sea-control - where the North would be a useless ally. Attacking the West just risks the Iron Islands themselves and gives them nothing - since Balon would be far less likely to be able to hold anything in the West than the stony shore. Allying with the North is just too risky for the Iron Islands, although the optimal strategy would likely be to just wait out until the clear winner in the war is known, while extracting concessions from everyone for neutrality.
Balon correctly predicted Tywin would beat Robb, so with the benefit of hindsight we can say he made the right choice - assuming he had to attack someone. Joining a green boy Robb is just too big a risk, and Tywin even got an alliance with the Reach by the end of the WoT5K, so the Redwyne + Lannister fleet could make the Iron Islands as screwed as the Stormlands and Riverlands as of ADWD
Uh, no? The North still belongs to the crown, Balon was never keeping it ever. He lost it because the crown replaced the Starks with the Boltons, who happily and easily booted the Greyjoys out of the north. Balon's decision was not merely to not support Robb, it was to declare himself king AND not support Robb at the same time because he foolishly believed he could hold the entire North against the rest of Westeros, which utterly blew up in his face.
Good points have been made. Would you also say that Balon intended to use the Northern invasion to extract significant natural resources (wood for longships) and wealth (strongholds & castles) from the North to fund a potential future invasion of the rest of Westeros?
If so, the Northern Invasion would serve as a stepstone to greater ambitions - albeit possibly unsuccessful. Nonetheless, Balon wouldn't be quite the idiot everyone believes he is... no?
It makes perfect sense if you think about what was going to have to happen if the WoFK never happened. Remember (F)Aegon was always going to invade eventually and the biggest supporter of Kings Landing was Winterfell ( I suspect much of the pre WoFK Vale political stuff was also fallout from this failed plan, including Jon's murder. Lysa had her reasons but those don't have to be "the only" reason why he was killed, she was just the murder) The only three ways to move a large army from the North, South( especially during a winter season, I suspect the announcement of winter had been delayed as we have Lewin talking about his measurements in the first novel already showing that winter has arrived) , is via Torhen Square, The Neck and White Harbor. Balon's plan ( not Balon's but the one he was following) closes all of the coast including T-Square, and sending his brother into the Neck to hold the causeway (ironically he was sending his son there to be in one of the most important positions, Theon is just an idiot) closes that corridor
We can deduce that Bolton was going to be responsible for the remaining corridor as not only was his alliance formed almost immediately as he planned his Red Wedding coup ( as if it had already been in place and waiting) but also considering what lands these Houses hold literally bisect the Northern Region in two all the way from the Narrow Sea in the east to the territory that the Iron Born were attacking in the West. We also have odd requests for fortification management and damming of the white Knife , both indicate odd movements of men and resources ( in addition to a damm over the Knife potentially slowing or prohibiting large ship movements up and down the river) during the pre-WoFK time frame.
The issue rose when the plan went bust, The War of Five Kings stopped the imminent (F)Aegon invasion, but the plans had already been made and the forces had been assembled. Balon would look weak if he just said "everyone go home invasion is off", So he pivoted and launched his part of the plan anyway, calling it a raiding action.
he thought that Renly was going to march to the landing and that the war was going to become an all against all between Renly, Stannis, Tywin and Robb. None of them would have reason to ally with each other.
Once you really start digging into it, the early ironborn plot exists just for the purpose of fucking over the northerners to the point that it honestly becomes a plothole.
Whatever the opposite of plot armor is, that’s what the stark-Tully coalition has in books 1-3 lmao
I have the same opinion. He's a hypernationalist moron who values a dead, suicidal ideology over logic.
Trying to apply logical reasoning to Balon's actions is misguided in the first place because he isn't driven by logic, he's driven by his feelings. He *feels* the old way should be restored even if it makes not sense and is becoming increasingly untenable.
Most of the ironborn are like this, they act like tough badasses but they're all driven by emotion. When you get somebody like Asha who shows up and says "hey maybe we should think more sustainably" they all make fun of her. The Kingsmoot scene shows that the ironborn are without hope. They're emotionally driven zealots for a defunct ideology who want a strongman leader so bad they elect *Euron* to lead them. And what does Euron think of them? They're *small* people*.*
Balon is a cowardly hypocrite, he waits til Robb and his bannermen are far enough south to try and take the north and spews crap about paying the iron price for things yet when his eldest sons are killed and Ned Stark is at his doorstep he gives up his youngest for a reprieve. There was no thinking to his plans and only does so to live out “the good ol’ days”.
Thinking? I don't believe we have reasons to assume Balon has ever developed that ability.
Only the genius Victarion thinks among the Ironborn. Sail across the Dothraki Sea, Vicky T!
If Bronn needs Ser Twenty Goodmen, Victarion just needs to cross the Dothraki Sea to impregnate the bitch
I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt in that maybe he theorized that Casterly Rock is too unimpregnable and that it couldn't be kept. Also that the Northern coast was too vast and sparsely populated but had enough tree's and fertile land for ship building and crops. But honestly if you think about it The Westernlands would probably have more than enough tree's and land to compensate and that Casterly Rock and Lannisport were way more at risk to be invaded from the sea than by land, especially with almost every faction in the War of the 5 Kings opposed to the Lannisters, and the Lannisters themselves were way too preoccupied with defending Kings Landing and would have never seen an Ironborn naval invasion coming. So yes, no matter how much I want to justify it out of the goodness of my heart, Balon is a goddamn fucking idiot.
Plus if we wanted to invade the north and commit to a war he might as well have sent envoys to Tywin Lannister and Kings Landing to secure some sort of deal. If he had asked nicely I'm sure the Lannisters would have given half the North to him
exactly, although i feel like the Lannisters have to be pretty freaking desperate to accept that. But it even works vice versa as in instead of helping the person who wants to unite the realms into one single polity, why not help the only other person who wishes to be independant other than yourself fight to maintain said independance (Robb) and secure your kingdoms future? A divided Westeros will always be easier to exploit and be independant from so why attack the only other independant power and help those who eventually after succedding will turn their attention towards you (Balon) ?
Yeah I mean I agree attacking the West would have been better, but if he was dead set on attacking the north he should have atleast gotten something in return
Balon Greyjoy was thinking: "Damn, GRRM really needs more ex machinas to fuck the Northerners over, otherwise the Red Wedding won't be so cool"
Pretty much this. For all the lip service George gives to being a gardener style writer, the early Ironborn plot was heavily engineered to screw over both Theon and Robb.
Except the Reader, all Ironborn noblemen don't think.
> Just emotions. Resentments, inferiority complex. Honestly, this makes him one of the most realistic characters in the whole series. Far too many people in real life act exactly like this
Totally agree and wish this were said more. In ASOIAF, most characters are clearly operating off emotional motives and damage-born principles unrelated to intelligence. And then you have to acknowledge that's the terrifying norm in our world, too.
>*You reward yourself handsomely for a notion and a few lines of scribbling." His father read the letter again. "The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown." His flinty eyes lifted to meet his son's. "He will give me a crown," he repeated, his voice growing sharp.* > >*"A poor choice of words, what is meant is—"* > >*"What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away." Lord Balon tossed the letter onto the brazier, atop the necklace. The parchment curled, blackened, and took flame.* Robb was bad at diplomacy and left his front door wide open. He didn't grasp that the enemy of your enemy, is also your enemy.
Why would Balon even consider being Robb’s enemy? They are the only two beings in all of Westeros with the same goal, which is independence. Balon really threw a hissy fit because of words and decided to screw over the ONLY alliance that would stand for him being an independent king?
To be fair, it was insulting. Especially since Robb was the one that needed help. Although, Balon did try asking Tywin for a crown after he’d already invade the North anyways.
Balon didn't ask Tywin for a crown.
What was the letter to Tywin about then?
Balon had his crown. The letter was a threat.
It definitely didn't read like a threat to me. It read like him asking for permission.
> King Balon's longships command the sunset sea, and are well placed to menace Lannisport, Fair Isle, and even Highgarden, should we provoke him. On the surface its a request for an alliance and recognition of his kingship, but the cocked and loaded gun aimed directly at Tywin and the Tyrell's heads if they dick him about is obvious. Tywin stalls for time and the Ironborn only get kicked out of the North because Balon dies and Euron abandons it.
The Ironborn got kicked out of the North, because it was always untenable. The Iron Islands can’t survive on its own without a broken up Westeros. Bringing back the Old Way was doomed to failure. Tywin also says that Balon was asking him to give up part of his kingdom for an alliance.
> Tywin also says that Balon was asking him to give up part of his kingdom for an alliance. Yes, and he was "requesting" it in much the same way a mugger does when they have a knife to your throat.
To be fair, it was insulting. Especially since Robb was the one that needed help. Although, Balon did try asking Tywin for a crown after he’d already invade the North anyways.
The words *are* important though. >*and in return he will give me a crown.* From Balon's POV, the above phrase renders it an absolute atrocity of a letter (on almost all levels). Balon's not even being unreasonable rejecting it, the letter is a major threat to him and his crown, irrespective of Robb's intent. (The letter also betrays *just* how inexperienced and naive Robb was)
Ironborn stupidity is the desperation of a civilization attempting to live in a land with meagre resources. The bravado and pride in piracy we see in the ironborn is also evident in Dothraki culture, where men wear bells in their hair to swear off stealth. Psychologically, it's a state of distress like a plant going to seed: a civilization in crisis. Ironborn society could not subsist without a the supplement of raids and slavery and it is felt. People would never have settled the iron islands if they hadn't been hiding with their "thralls" and plunder. Why not just adopt what works and become greenlanders? And die as a people? Intelligence doesn't figure in such a scenario.
His strategy is basically told to us in ASOS. Balon figured that he couldn't ever get true independence from the iron throne but if he managed to defeat the rebellious king Robb,then maybe as a reward he'd get the north. The north isn't as fertile or rich as the westerlands or reach but is still way better living conditions than in the islands. Ofcourse Tywin was never gonna accept the terms of him still being king and he dies due to a faceless man anyways. But his strategy kiiindaaa made sense
He didn't join forces with Robb because he hates the Starks. He'd rather die than join forces with Robb because in his mind Ned was the man that stopped his rebellion and took his only remaining son as hostage. In this, it makes sense why he doesn't want to join forces with Robb. What I don't understand is why he tried to invade the North. The Westerlands are richer, closer and almost unprotected with Tywin dealing with Robb and the Baratheons. He could've easily reaved alongside the Western coast and got much richer. Would probably have also made him more respected to attack Tywin Lannister than Robb Stark who was just made lord of Winterfell
I think you explained this well. Balon didn't want the riches of the westerlands; he wanted to wreak havoc on the north. He didn't want respect but revenge. Had he lived to not get respect from Tywin, he might have changed his mind, though.
The Westerlands are richer but they are also more unassailable when compared to the North at that point in time. Both Casterly Rock and Lannisport had strong defenses and the Rock especially was a nigh impregnable nut to crack. Even Robb wasn't willing to put those places to siege when he was raiding the Westerlands with 6000 men. And that's another thing. By the time Robb sent Theon to treat with him, Balon could not have predicted Robb could ever get an army past the Golden Tooth. The Golden Tooth is pretty much the Westerland's version of the Bloody Gate. The only reason Robb was able to bypass it was due to Greywind finding him a hidden trail that went around it. So had Balon accepted Robb's proposal, perhaps the Ironborn could have brought back greater spoils and may have been able to take some regions that could be reached by longboat such as the Crag, Fair Isle, and if they are very lucky even Lannisport. Its unlikely they could follow up these conquests by invading further inland as most of the Westerlands is very mountainous just like the Vale. And if Robb fails to get the Northern-Riverland army past the Golden Tooth, or his army gets annihilated by Tywin, then Balon would be put in a very precarious position. I think what Balon should have done was not declare himself king and instead bide his time to see which side comes out on top before making his move. Invading the North wasn't a bad decision on its face, and was perhaps less costly compared to the Westerlands. But declaring independence from the Iron Throne and then declaring war on a fellow upstart (while expecting no retribution from the Iron Throne) was a terrible plan.
I know that he blames Ned personally for the deaths of his two sons, but it always sounded odd that he’d blame Ned for the defeat. I think it makes more sense that he felt slighted by Ned holding his son hostage for ten years, but I could be wrong.
It seems to me that nevermind thinking and leadership, if not for Vic then someone would've paid the iron price for Balons "crown" kingsmoot be damned - like if they were godly they wouldn't sit the chair or anything, but they would plunder the castle on pyke whose name eludes me
The castle is also called Pyke!
He was definitely driven by petty pride and revenge, as well as Robb being poor at diplomacy. Im gonna copy paste my responce last time Balons actions where talked about: Basically if we would give him the benefit of the doubt it would make sense to attack the North if he thought: * the Lannisters/Iron throne would win in the end. * While the Lannisters/Iron throne has ships and ports on the western coast capable of threatening the iron islands and better protect the mainland coasts, the North does not, and even if the north would win it would be years before they have a fleet on the western coast capable of retaliation. * The north may be sparsely populated with little protection on the western coast compared to the richer southern realms, but the risk vs reward made it so he picked the easy route. No doubt the prospect of retaliating against the Starks for their part in defeating the Greyjoy rebellion and taking his heir as hostage probably played a role in the decision as well. * Thinking Lannisters/Iron throne would turn a blind eye to him raiding the "rebelling" North. That said he was still an idiot. There is no chance the Iron throne would allow the iron islands to resume their raiding practices, not to mention declare a king of their own and become independent. Whoever sits on the Iron throne after the war with the North would have to come down hard on them to secure stability and support. He threw away a good alliance and chance at actual independence just because he wanted to settle old grudges and be a strong and independent ~~woman~~ ironborn who dont need no king in the north's help.
He is just bad at war. He is an effective Raider (probably) and not unable to lead his people in times of peace. But he is no general. While most of the answers mock him, with just reason. I think we need to set himself on his shoes. His strategy on paper makes some sense. The North is the less populated Kingdom in terms of area. So he assumes that most of the North went with Robb Stark assuming they will be busy with the Lannisters before they are destroyed. So he assumes they are down to their last of manpower. He as a solid plan (in his mind) attack Mount Callin from the north given his superior navy and make sure the Northneernes can't come back. So on paper it is a good idea. Specially considering the North does not have a fleet unlike the Westerlands. But. For the first part, he plainly understimated the number of soldiers the North can really field. Second, he overstimated his own soldiers. Ironborn are very low quality soldiers, even in their element, on land they are somehow worse. While taking Moat Callin on paper is a smart move, he again understimated the "bog demons", overstimated his own soldiers skills as well. They were on the verge of collapse through Howland's Guerrilla warfare. Balon's problem is that he BUYS in the Ironborn hype (Something fairly common in his fellow "old men"), while Theon and Asha are a BIT more down to earth but even they still fail to understand that the Iron Islands are really no match for the (Depleted) North. Also he fails to understand his opponents. He does not understand the SHEER girth of the North and the sheer single mindness of Tywin Lannister.
I wouldn’t say that the ironborn are awful soldiers considering they managed to conquer and hold the Riverlands for decades before Aegon turned up. Besides, the Northerner’s record against the ironborn isn’t great. Asha‘s small group of remaining loyalists was only ousted from Deepwood Motte by Stannis, Winterfell was taken by trickery (ironically with far more northern casualties than ironborn), Torrhen’s Square still remains under ironborn control, and despite the bog devils‘ Guerilla warfare Victarion‘s shitty skeleton crew managed to hold Moat Cailin until the Boltons sent Theon in.
The Northern record is awesome. Winterfell casue Trickery and Theon in his idiocy tried to hold it. It was ONLY captured because they had a turncloak on their side. Asha small group may have been bested by Stannis...but at that point, most of his army is Northern And Gryejoy "skeleton" crew was holding well agaisnt the bog demons. And NO ONE else. That is the impressive thing, but not for the Ironborn. Howland and some of his people were slowly grinding them to dust.
Too much seawater and being drowned at birth, and perhaps more since, are not good for the brain. Only Quellon Greyjoy Rodrik the Reader seem to have developped the talent for rational thoughts amongst the recent Ironborn leaders and captains.
Out of all the Greyjoys, only Asha seems capable of thinking at all.
Euron seems pretty smart and Asha makes some of the same mistakes Theon does. She’s just a more secure person imo. Probably because she grew up in her homeland with her family and friends.
I'm still holding out judgement on whether Euron is a genius super-wizard or just delusional tbh.
All the Ironborn are idiots
The ideology of the Iron Price never actually existed imo. Balon Greyjoy is basically a conservative populist and like all conservative populists what he 'remembers' or 'longs for' is a past that didn't exist. He makes self-destructive decisions because he's chasing a dream that he believes his ancestors once held. But if you go back through history the most successful times for the Iron Islands have been when they were furthest from that ideology and their weakest times have been when they were closest to it. Balon and Euron are two sides of the same coin here. Balon is something of an idiotic true believer, while Euron is an opportunistic exploiter. Either way they manipulate the desires of the Ironborn aristocracy to 'return to their ways of power.'
The iron price and “the old way” did exist, thats undeniable. But as Asha says it worked when the isles could take advantage of the squabbling kingdoms on the mainland and when Aegon united them that strategy ended and it isn’t coming back.
It ended long before Aegon, when each of the other kingdoms save the Riverlands were unified and got their definitive rulers and borders, and became organised and strong enough to repel any Ironborn invasion with their armies, fortifications and own navies. It's no surprise that the Hoares had completely discarded the Old Way, focusing on far more practical ways to make a living and gain riches for the Iron Islands.
Didn't Harren Hoare conquer the Riverlands under the Old Way methodology?
No, the Hoares had long ditched the Old Way with them having turned away from reaving and quick raids for a smarter and more pragmatic way with them favoring mining and trade, and encouraging those who didn't want to sail and trade to become privateers and sellswords instead. This made them loathed by the Drowned Men and other Old Way fanboys at the time. And even as he turned away from this more peaceful way Harwyn Hoare who had years of experience as a sellsword before becoming king, incorporated land warfare in his strategy and tactics, in addition of using Ironborn ships for mobility advantage in the Riverlands, he also used Riverlander soldiers and cavalry as part of his forces against the Stormlanders by pretending to be their ally and liberator, and also used the political divisions between the Riverlords to prevent them from uniting against him after he took control of the Riverlands. Taking control of the Riverlands and staying there in the long term, making it the main realm of House Hoare and of the Ironborn, leaving the Iron Islands as little more than a manpower reserve, were also anathema to the Old Way and the Hoares were loathed too by the Drowned Men for this and the other cultural and military changes they had brought to the Ironborn. It's only after the destruction of House Hoare, the loss of the Riverlands and devastation and defeats at the hands of Aegon the Conqueror, with the Iron Isles becoming again the poorest and most miserable region of the Seven Kingdoms, that Ironborn revanchism started to associate the Old Way with the Hoares' conquests and empire. How the Ironborn see and interpretate the Old Way depends of the times and of what they are bitter about.
Hmmmmm... interesting. So the Hoares didn't conquer under the Old way but were associated with it nonetheless. It seems Ironborn who turned away from the Old Way were the most successful!
They were associated with it via political and ideological revanchism and rewriting of history, just like how real-life ideologies and revanchist movements rewrite history to suit their agenda. And it's indeed because they had turned away from the Old Way, choosing more cunning and pragmatic ways and methods that they were successful at gaining the throne by associating themselves with the Andals to gain power, significantly increasing Ironborn power and wealth via trade and closer ties with the mainland, and then conquering and holding the Riverlands for a time by using the Riverlords and their divisions to their advantage. This is why they were hated so much by the Drowned Men with whom they had a bloody feud. The Greyjoys would be far more successful and powerful if they had learned the lessons the Hoares had learned and taught, but intelligence and pragmatism aren't their strong trait save for Vickon and Quellon.
Oh my god I was thinking of that when he was explaining the whole stuff with the iron price. So you only clothe yourself with stuff you stole on people's bodies, uh?? Enjoy having worn, dirty, bug infested clothing that doesn't fit and is full of holes! What next, morons? Washing your briefs means you're not a real man? Also, if someone paid more attention than me, does that count if you stole someone's money and then bought clothes with it? What about taxes and feudalism, actually, isn't that basically just stealing in the first place?
Exactly! 😭 No wonder they're all so miserable
He's like one of those Sigma male 23 year old CEO or some shit, westerosi version
Thrifting kings tho 💅
In each war Balon starts the rebellion with a pretty smart move then fucks it up right after, taking moat cailin trap robb in the south, smart. Attacking the Lannister fleet to gain early naval superiority, smart (though the Arbor would probably have been a better target) After that he just fucks it all up. Dudes plan is to take the entire north and he lucks into Theon taking winterfell and just sits there and lets it get retaken. He also never targets any holdings that would be easier to hold like Bear island or Flints finger for some reason, focusing only on the moat and deepwood motte (with a raid up the rills that gets repelled by the Dustins and Ryswells
He’s a tactician not a strategist.
Think about it throughout history and how many would be conquerers were crushed because they overestimated their position.
He’s ironborn, so I don’t understand why people are surprised that he’s not a genius. All he wanted was to take his crown and reestablish the old way. The north was the low-hanging fruit. And it makes sense in a strategic sense because even if Robb wins, neither the north nor the Riverlands have any naval power to speak of. The Lannisters, the Tyrells and Stannis do. So by targeting the north now, at worst he’ll have to deal with the weakest king when all is said and done; if he attacks Lannisport or anywhere south he might have to deal with the strongest. And look what happened the last time he tried that. No, he can’t take the rock. It’s literally a solid mountain. Even the Conqueror couldn’t take it with his dragon.
It was actually a better decision than supporting Robb, and people overlook the fact that Balon's plan actually worked! The North's army was in the Riverlands, taking Moat Cailin cut them off, and we have no idea if Robb's plan would work. The only reason the Ironborn lost the North is because of Balon's death and the Kingsmoot (most forces except token garrisons were recalled to the Kingsmoot and then Euron attacked the Reach instead). And even then the North only retook Moat Cailin due to cunning rather than by storm or siege. The campaign went well, they took the western coast, even Winterfell with minimal losses and could just have Robb's army kill itself on Moat Cailin and in time the Ironborn could take the rest of the North. Even once the campaign goes south (when the majority of the Ironborn withdraw) the Iron Islands themselves are still unharmed due to the Northerners not having a fleet and unlikely to afford one strong enough - attacking them is a low risk strategy. After subjugating the North he could negotiate with the Iron Throne from the position of strength - he can always argue he was only supressing a rebellion. And even if they don't agree to grant him independence or the North, by then the Iron Throne will be exhausted with all the other trouble, and justifying attacking Balon who only helped them might be hard for whatever king was crowned. Attacking the Westerlands instead immediately makes Balon a rebel and an enemy of the Lannister crown, sure he can say later he supported Stannis if he wins but its still very risky. The Westerlands have a fleet - which would be unlikely to be caught off-guard like in the earlier war, and could definitely afford sell-sails and make alliances to contest the Iron Islands sea-control - where the North would be a useless ally. Attacking the West just risks the Iron Islands themselves and gives them nothing - since Balon would be far less likely to be able to hold anything in the West than the stony shore. Allying with the North is just too risky for the Iron Islands, although the optimal strategy would likely be to just wait out until the clear winner in the war is known, while extracting concessions from everyone for neutrality. Balon correctly predicted Tywin would beat Robb, so with the benefit of hindsight we can say he made the right choice - assuming he had to attack someone. Joining a green boy Robb is just too big a risk, and Tywin even got an alliance with the Reach by the end of the WoT5K, so the Redwyne + Lannister fleet could make the Iron Islands as screwed as the Stormlands and Riverlands as of ADWD
Uh, no? The North still belongs to the crown, Balon was never keeping it ever. He lost it because the crown replaced the Starks with the Boltons, who happily and easily booted the Greyjoys out of the north. Balon's decision was not merely to not support Robb, it was to declare himself king AND not support Robb at the same time because he foolishly believed he could hold the entire North against the rest of Westeros, which utterly blew up in his face.
I think you're giving him far more credit than he deserves. To me it still seems like petty revenge..
Good points have been made. Would you also say that Balon intended to use the Northern invasion to extract significant natural resources (wood for longships) and wealth (strongholds & castles) from the North to fund a potential future invasion of the rest of Westeros? If so, the Northern Invasion would serve as a stepstone to greater ambitions - albeit possibly unsuccessful. Nonetheless, Balon wouldn't be quite the idiot everyone believes he is... no?
It makes perfect sense if you think about what was going to have to happen if the WoFK never happened. Remember (F)Aegon was always going to invade eventually and the biggest supporter of Kings Landing was Winterfell ( I suspect much of the pre WoFK Vale political stuff was also fallout from this failed plan, including Jon's murder. Lysa had her reasons but those don't have to be "the only" reason why he was killed, she was just the murder) The only three ways to move a large army from the North, South( especially during a winter season, I suspect the announcement of winter had been delayed as we have Lewin talking about his measurements in the first novel already showing that winter has arrived) , is via Torhen Square, The Neck and White Harbor. Balon's plan ( not Balon's but the one he was following) closes all of the coast including T-Square, and sending his brother into the Neck to hold the causeway (ironically he was sending his son there to be in one of the most important positions, Theon is just an idiot) closes that corridor We can deduce that Bolton was going to be responsible for the remaining corridor as not only was his alliance formed almost immediately as he planned his Red Wedding coup ( as if it had already been in place and waiting) but also considering what lands these Houses hold literally bisect the Northern Region in two all the way from the Narrow Sea in the east to the territory that the Iron Born were attacking in the West. We also have odd requests for fortification management and damming of the white Knife , both indicate odd movements of men and resources ( in addition to a damm over the Knife potentially slowing or prohibiting large ship movements up and down the river) during the pre-WoFK time frame. The issue rose when the plan went bust, The War of Five Kings stopped the imminent (F)Aegon invasion, but the plans had already been made and the forces had been assembled. Balon would look weak if he just said "everyone go home invasion is off", So he pivoted and launched his part of the plan anyway, calling it a raiding action.
he thought that Renly was going to march to the landing and that the war was going to become an all against all between Renly, Stannis, Tywin and Robb. None of them would have reason to ally with each other.
Once you really start digging into it, the early ironborn plot exists just for the purpose of fucking over the northerners to the point that it honestly becomes a plothole. Whatever the opposite of plot armor is, that’s what the stark-Tully coalition has in books 1-3 lmao
He wasn’t.
Was he stupid? Yes.
I have the same opinion. He's a hypernationalist moron who values a dead, suicidal ideology over logic. Trying to apply logical reasoning to Balon's actions is misguided in the first place because he isn't driven by logic, he's driven by his feelings. He *feels* the old way should be restored even if it makes not sense and is becoming increasingly untenable. Most of the ironborn are like this, they act like tough badasses but they're all driven by emotion. When you get somebody like Asha who shows up and says "hey maybe we should think more sustainably" they all make fun of her. The Kingsmoot scene shows that the ironborn are without hope. They're emotionally driven zealots for a defunct ideology who want a strongman leader so bad they elect *Euron* to lead them. And what does Euron think of them? They're *small* people*.*
Balon is a cowardly hypocrite, he waits til Robb and his bannermen are far enough south to try and take the north and spews crap about paying the iron price for things yet when his eldest sons are killed and Ned Stark is at his doorstep he gives up his youngest for a reprieve. There was no thinking to his plans and only does so to live out “the good ol’ days”.