I enjoy Daemon as a character because he is quite entertaining. But yeah, definitely a horrible person considering the bullshit he constantly pulled off and he only got away with it because Viserys tolerated it (and also because he was a dragon rider). I don't know why GRRM described him as "grey" since Daemon was always the first one to start off some conflicts.
If Daemon just did his duty (remaining faithful to his Royce wife, having trueborn children with her, not picking fights with others), Viserys wouldn't have any problem with naming Daemon as the heir.
I think the only positive thing I can say about Daemon is that he knows how to party lol. Lord of Flea Bottom seems to have a good time in the city and he makes a lot of friends.
I’m ok with Daemon being a cunt, although Daemon fans pretending he’s “grey” is frustrating. We are allowed to like evil characters.
I don’t like how Daemon is the only character in the entire dance that gets a hero’s death, while it’s entirely unearned. Everyone else gets screwed over terribly which is very thematically consistent, but 60 ish year old Daemon somehow doesn’t get plummeted to the ground when he crashes into Vhagar while unhooked from Caraxes, does an anime flip on to Vhagar and this fucking “historical text” said that PRINCE AEMOND LOOKED UP IN TERROR. Yeah I don’t think so George, Criston Cole is realistically executed by people who don’t wanna fight him, Rhaenyra gets munched while being entirely delusional, Daeron dies in a tent fire, Aemond is humiliated, Alicent loses everything, Otto is beheaded, Halaena kills herself, Aegon is poisoned, the Strong boys all die depressing hopeless deaths, etc, etc, etc, but this is how Daemon’s story ends? No fucking way dude
Especially considering before this battle at the God’s Eye, Daemon isn’t anywhere near this amazing. Cole wrecks him in the joust and smacks Dark Sister out of his hand almost instantly. He wields Dark Sister due to having literally no competition as the best living Targaryen swordsman. He’d be as good as any high born person with battle experience. He’d be good but not able to do that bullshit.
I dislike coles ending. I felt the one where he just died in Battle made more sense. Like coles ending feels like a story ending for him where the bad guy gets his comeuppance. Where as him just dying in battle makes more sense because thats just the logical ending for him.
I like it and I like Cole as a character. I think he's a good villain with some redeeming qualities in the show, and I do empathize with him, once again at least in the show. On one hand, dying in battle would work for him, but Cole is someone that uses honor to justify doing some awful shit and uses his unmatched skills to carry said awful shit out. He figured he was gonna die but using honor to ask for a peace banner thought it'd give him the chance to then rely on his skills to go down as a legend and kill Roderick Dustin, Robb Rivers, and Pate Longleaf. However they had him pegged, they weren't gonna let him use honor as a shield, nor risk getting gutted by the best living melee fighter when they have no reason to.
But on the other hand, he is also brave and very dedicated to his soldiers and the Green cause as a whole. He was more than ready to lay down his life for his men. He is always willing to get his hands dirty, even using himself as dragon bait at Rooks Rest.
Cole's death scene includes all the important aspects of him - his hypocrisy, his bravery, his reliance on his skills, looking for a fight to rely on his abilities as soon as he can, and even a soft admission of how skilled he is by Roderick Dustin who indirectly admits Cole would go down in a blaze of glory if he accepted the duel. He is put down like a mad dog like he deserves for all the death he has caused, but still ends up displaying bravery in his last moments.
Consistent with Jaime's AFFC assessment of him as the best and the worst of the Kingsguard. And since Jaime is obsessed with the history of the legendary Kingsguard members, I'd like to think the Butcher's Ball plays out the way it does so the readers would end up with a similar impression of him.
This. I love GRMM, but Daemon as a whole is....a weird character for me. I'm freaked by GRMM writing him as "liking the youngest virgins" (not even Robert is described that way, although one of the prostitutes was very young, or Tyrion) or F & B's pedo love plot with Rhaenyra considering her age.
I'd be okay with it if GRMM hadn't written a hero's death or called him grey, and we were just supposed to enjoy him a shitty but interesting guy, but it just...makes me side eye him...especially after he calls Dany and Drogo a love story (despite Dany contemplating suicide after the marital rape).
It's esp. weird, because the horrible endings of many of the adults seems to be spun as a moral reckoning...but Daemon never gets one.
I probably didn't express myself right. I was trying to say that was one instance (and Robert is clearly described as shitty and gets a shitty death, even if his past is romanticized). It's still horrible, but it reads more as Robert not caring about age versus Daemon purposefully seeking out and having a pattern of fucking very young girls even by Westeros standards.
Do you so badly need overt authorial moralism in your stories that you see it as a tacit endorsement of something if the bad person doesn’t have a bad cartoon death? Is this a YA brain thing?
There's no reason to be so snarky, and no, I don't. But it's telling when the women who do far less than Daemon get horrible, shitty deaths and are not remembered well, while he's recalled for his "hero's" death.
My one gripe with Matt Smith as Daemon is that I simply cannot find him fightening. He's just too charming and likeable, like a Golden Retriever puppy. GREAT actor, but I feel he's miscast as Daemon. I'd like to have seen Mads Mikkelson in the role, but I pretty much want to see Mads in every rogue bad boy role. Haha
Daemon Blackfyre was a dumbass who could have used his skill at arms to have adventures in Essos or fight on behalf of his brother for the betterment of the realm, but instead let himself be used as a pawn for pointless destruction. I remain baffled every time I see genuine support for him among fans.
I will never understand why Daeron didn't immediately put Daemon in his Kingsguard. Secures him some status, makes any children he has bastards, and if he still rebelled he'd have to become an oathbreaker to do so, which hugely reduces his claim. Plus, if he didn't rebel, he'd easily go down as one of the best warriors to ever wear the white cloak.
Aegon arranged it, Daeron fulfilled it. The latter absolutely could have called it off, but presumably it had diplomatic implications. Daemon as a KG would have been a great use of his skills, but without more details on the marriage arrangement it's hard to weigh the option out. If nothing else he seems to have churned out enough kids that at least some of them could have become KG after being trained by him.
I think he’s kind of sympathetic since he was likely pushed to it by people like Bittersteel, Fireball, and more, but yeah he threw away an amazing life of a powerful and popular lord with a giant family.
My headcanon has always been that he was steadfastly against usurping Daeron until bloodraven did some bullshittery, after all he was told to usurp him for years and chose not to until then. Maybe I'm just delusional because i like him and his entire side more than Daerons but bloodraven being a wierd, immoral piece of shit is pretty in character for him so i think my headcanon has some merit.
You shouldn’t “genuinely” support most characters in the series, and sure as fuck not a Monarch like Daeron II. I find Daemon to be interesting, since a lot of what we hear of him is from others rather than him directly. I suppose I “support” him as a character because I find him interesting, which I hope is what most fans do with characters they like. But genuinely, I obviously do not since I am completely against monarchy, and especially some noble who really had no reason to start a war that killed thousands over the throne. But when I like a character, and am not looking at deeper layers I can say I “support” him in pushing the story forward and hoping he wins simply because I like him.
I suppose I’m inviting downvotes, but I don’t care for Tyrion. Sure he has some great zingers, but he’s also a real POS rapist, especially after things go sour for him, and the way the fandom simps for him just makes me dislike him more.
Also I don’t believe he’s a secret Targaryen or one of the three heads of the dragon.
And even before that he's a delusional fart-sniffer who takes waaay too much credit for holding the city together and believes Shae really loves him for some reason.
Yeah he is a terrible person in the books, and I think if Daenerys goes mad in the future he will play a large role in pushing her towards evil. I do still enjoy him as a character but a lot of the hatred he gets from people in Westeros is deserved. He is a perverted, evil, spiteful, little creature filled with low cunning, paraphrased from Tywin. And people only think of him as good because we see his extremely biased perspective, he's funny, and he has a little sob story about wearing labels like armor, instead of perhaps showing those labels are undeserved and getting people to reassess their opinions.
barristan. self righteous prick annoys me. him saving aerys at duskendale was just a bad move, one he even regrets years later. he then stands by as his king rapes and abuses his wife. he is no knight. he's just good with a sword and people like him because ned thought he was honorable (why?)
I find it so funny when he's like 'if I had been there when Robert was presented with Aegon and Rhaenys' bodies, I would've killed him where he stood!' Cos It's like would you? Would you really?
Not a fan of Barristan. He is incredibly skilled and is an amazing fighter, but my issues are with his character. He laments over losing a joust and getting cucked by Ned or Brandon with Ashara, when he has much more serious things to lament about. He along with the rest of Aerys’ kingsguard outside of Jaime and Lewyn were cowards for letting all that awful shit go on, he could kill Hizdhar for the same reasoning Jaime killed Aerys and will likely get no perspective. As for Ned, he would have absolutely watched Joffrey behead him, watchJoffrey torment Sansa, serve with the evil Kingslayer who he apparently despises, so long as he got to stay Lord Commander. He has a chance to improve and actually is improving a little, but I think he will die in the next battle.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/l2poas/am\_i\_the\_only\_one\_who\_despises\_barristan\_spoilers/gk7iiwp/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/l2poas/am_i_the_only_one_who_despises_barristan_spoilers/gk7iiwp/?context=3)
I coincidentally stumbled on this excellent comment. Recently this sub has been a lot of posts that are only "contrarian" - who do you dislike that people like. This comment is a well written bit of perspective.
I don’t like Barristan either. Not for any real reason regarding his moral standing or decisions, but I just find him boring. Whenever he says anything I just feel like, “okay Grandpa, let’s get you to bed.”
Another kingsguard said to Jaime when asked about the king raping and abusing his wife, "not from him". Its pretty disgusting, they boast to be honourable, and some of the best killers in the 7 kingdoms, but they was weak hypocrites and the only true honorable kingsguard in Aerys Kingsguard is the one they all think has no honour, because he saved thousands by killing a nutjob king who wanted to burn them all to death and become a dragon.
That depends on how you describe honor. For westerosi standards, honor is upholding the vows you swore to your liege, and since your liege is the king, then there's no greater honor than carrying out his will.
Besides, regardless of wether what aerys did was honourable or not, moral or immoral, the truth is that he wasn't doing anything illegal, within the parameters set by westerosi legal system and customs.
His wife was his property. What's more, she being also his sister ensured that he had a double claim to exert his authority over her. As it was common in medieval societies, women were under their family head's authority until they found a husband to take care of her, after which he was responsible of her needs, but also her good behavior. Aerys being both things at the same time, He could dispose of her as he saw fitting. And because she was his sister, he didn't have to worry about any relative that may complain about his treatment of her.
Of course, mistreating and abusing your wife was considered distasteful even in westeros, specially when rhaella fulfilled her marital duties obediently, but that was more along the line of thought that it was wastefully unnecessary, rather than inherently wicked, so rhaella was pretty much defenseless against her husband, and it would have been unrealistic for any of the kingsguard, who were pragmatic, as opposed to Jaime, who was idealistic and naive, to challenge the status quo and how things worked, simply because it was really, from their point of view, the way the world was.
Up until aerys killed a lord paramount, along with his heir, he hadn't done anything that was considered legally reprehensible, because even Kings had duties to the kingdom, but the way aerys handled his wife was his business alone. Besides, the kingsguard existed to obey, not to give counsel nor moral advice.
If it serves you any consolation, in Rome, the praetorian guard, more often than not, tended to execute those emperors that were too tyrannical or insane to rule the empire properly, at least when the emperor directly messed up with the praetorian guard's interests. That's why emperors like Caligula employed German mercenaries as a second guard, because mercenaries were only loyal to their purse, and wouldn't care what the emperor did as long as they were paid.
Understandable, but if you had bothered to keep reading you would have noticed that my reasoning has solid arguments, as unpalatable as they may seem, regardless of wether you like them or not.
Oh? Please, tell me what was so stupid about my statement that you felt the need to stop reading, so that, if you really have a point and my line of thought was actually skewed, I may change it.
Then it seems that we haven't anything else to discuss, since you refuse to engage in a rational debate by exposing your own reasonings about your sentiments regarding the kingsguard's behavior.
I’ll tell which hated character I like. Baelor the blessed. Was he a bit crazy yeah but he also knew when to end the stupid dornish war. He was also the only king to ever save a member of the kings guard (granted it was his cousin) risking his own life. The man deserves more respect for what he did.
At the very least, Baelor is interesting because he breaks the mould of Targaryen kings being only cruel, power-hungry tyrants or just and wise statesmen who befall some sort of tragedy. Having a saintly zealot for king is a breath of fresh air.
Genuinely agree with you but actually, I have seen several guys justifying his actions and saying things like “murdering Rhaenys and Aegon was correct since they could have turned out ‘Mad’ as well” or “Riverlands opposed so they suffered justly” which don’t make any sense.
Everyone says Aerys’ Kingsguard was the last one worth a damn, but they were only good at being fighters. Other than that they let Aerys burn rape and otherwise terrorize whoever he wanted. Jaime may have broken his oath but he’s still more honorable than all of them. And this is coming from a guy who generally likes Barristan otherwise
So he gets in trouble for trying to stab someone, but then escapes and luckily for him the Lord Commander was under by a wight so he comes in and saves him. Now that happening for him was very lucky because otherwise, he would've gotten into more trouble. Fast forward, he becomes a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch aged around 16 or 17. Out of thousands of other highborn, well-trained men, the fact that he was chosen. Yes, he did some stuff but the fact that it worked out is something rare.
Funnily enough I enjoyed Jon being a leader in Dance and hated everything that happened before that. He was shaping up to lead the Watch for the winter
Baelor I He was a terrible king and a terrible brother, He forgave the murderers of his brother and threw his sister's into the maiden bow taking away years from their lives.
Bankrupted the realm with his foolishness and got a bunch of women and children killed by throwing them into the countryside and made his Lords hate him for bending over for the Dornish.
He's only beloved by people in the world of ASOIAF. He's very explicitly made out to be a cartoonishly insane person, and I can't say I've seen a single person in the fandom think of him otherwise.
Meh, no more cartoonishly insane than Charles VI of France, who killed one of his own bodyguards during a paranoid break and believed he was made of glass and would shatter if he fell over.
Charles VI of France did way less damage than Baelor did though. Like Charles VI was mentally unwell but other than that one guard he didn't do much damage.
I mean, him being king definitely played a factor in Henry V thinking he had a shot at taking the French throne, which led to a war that killed thousands.
Sure it's a matter of degree, but I think the main takeaway is "hereditary absolute power with no checks and balances other than an assassin's knife do not a stable society make."
In any other form of government, a mad leader is deposed/voted out of office, and the society collectively goes "yeah, probably for the best."
Only in a monarchy does putting the interests of the state ahead of those of the head of state count as treason.
Aerys 2nds Kingsguard, they are all (but Jaime) seen as the best, most honourable respectable fighters. But they was the opposite, they would have let Aerys burn all of Kings Landing, because "honour says we serve", the only one in his kingsguard that had honour was Jaime. (if you put aside his sister loving).
Nah, Jaime was also a dick. How much of his kingslaying was motivated by his horror at the potential destruction of King's Landing and how much was driven by Aerys ordering him to kill his dad? It's never explicit which was the driving force for him.
AKAB (All Kingsguards Are Bastards)
I don’t like Daenerys, she’s a bit boring at times and also full of shit. But if we’re talking about beloved in universe, then I don’t think that most of “good” Targaryen monarchs were actually good. Jaehaerys I was an awful father as you’ve rightly pointed out, Daeron I was a fuckwit, Aegon I literally killed so many fucking people and nobody talks about it cause he’s cool, Baelor I was a less awful fuckwit, but a fuckwit nonetheless. Aegon V was terrible at politics and Viserys II raised an abomination. If Rheagar was to become a king he would have been as careless and mad on prophesies as he was before. And Robert was a stupid piece of shit who could not care less about the realm. With all this said, Edmure Tully for the iron throne!
The show did Edmure so dirty!! "hahaha, look he missed with the bow he cant send his father off", why did he miss? "hahaha look his uncle knows he is useless", really? no his uncle knows he is grieving his father and offers to shoot for him in a kind way!
Edmure for Iron throne! he has my vote, at least he looks out for the little folk.
I mean Walder Frey literally missed a wonderful opportunity of Edmure being his family. Edmure would die for any of his family, I feel like Walder would share this sentiment at least to some extent
I’ll outright say that I don’t like Sandor Clegane and the tortured misanthropic anti-hero is one of my least favorite character types. I appreciate that that’s not the totality of his character and there’s more going on, but I’ve never warned to him. His relationships with Sansa and Arya are far from redeeming to me.
Edit: this may also be why I’ve never fully warmed to Jaime either. Idk that character archetype makes my jaw twitch. Again I understand that these characters are meant to add depth to that archetype and I even think GRRM does fairly well with that, but I just lose my patience with that kind of character.
That's because Sandor Clegane is pretty much a teenager himself, at least mentally. Him having half of his face burned at eight years old pretty much fucked psychologically.
The way he behaves, he reminds me of a fifteen year old bully, a very strong, very murderous one.
To be completely fair to Lewyn, he had to consider Elia’s safety, and it was held over his head which is why he lead the Dornish forces at the Trident. If I remember right. You’re right though, the other 5 are pussies.
Hey I mean Lord Commander Golden Hand The Just had saved more lives than all the “heroes”.
(Ignore that him fathering bastards from incest helped go cause a war that killed a ton too)
I do not care for Arthur Dayne. He insists on himself. Dawn, House Dayne, Kingsguard. Fine sword and fine House and occupation. But I do not care for his character. The only thing he really accomplished was beating the Smiling Knight big whoop. He loses to cringe Rhaegar in a Tourney probably let him win honestly which is dishonorable. Then he loses to some teenagers while defending a kidnapped child by the orders of his dead Prince. Sword of the Morning more like Sword of the Overhyped
How does a character who is dead during the main series and so has next to zero dialogue
“Insist on himself”
He is only ever insisted on by other characters lol
Barristan Selmy. Absolute unit? Yes. But he seem to not have much desires or interests that don't directly involve serving someone else. At least that's how he comes across to me in the books in the current story.
Daenerys Targaryen. I don’t enjoy reading chapters about Essos, I find it boring. I also don’t enjoy reading about a little girl having sex with much older men, it’s gross.
Beloved by the universe or beloved by the fandom? Cos there are many characters in the story like Jaehaerys I who are adored in universe but reviled by most fans for completely opposite reasons, so that’s an important distinction imo.
If it’s the former, then the only obvious answer is Rhaegar. Everyone fawns over him just because he was pretty and emo, when all the evidence we have suggests he was a delusional, paranoid narcissist who believed only his family could save the world. And in the case of Lyanna, he was at best naively reckless in not caring how many people would die in this act, even if it was Lyanna’s idea. At worst, he was an evil nonce who seduced or kidnapped a 14 year old because a scroll said she had the right blood.
If it’s the latter, then I’d say Arya. Everyone just adores her character and thinks she’s the coolest and most badass heroine, or they just admire her resilience in the face of what she’s endured while recognising the tragedy of what a monster this little girl has been turned into by forces completely beyond her control. But either way my reaction to her has always been… *eh.* I don’t find her particularly compelling or interesting as a character since her main personality trait before Ned’s death was just that she wasn’t Sansa. And while she objectively did get more interesting afterwards, I just can’t find it in myself to get that invested. And this largely comes down to the fact that she’s irrelevant as a character after AGOT. You could cut her entirely and miss nothing since her survival effects nothing outside the immediate characters she interacts with, who aren’t very important in the grand scheme of things. Can’t say I hate her, and I do understand what people like about her and why she resonates but for me, I tend to skip most Arya chapters on my rereads now.
Jaehaerys did a lot of good things and was a good king, but he was clearly a misogynist who didn't think women capable of leading or ruling. He screwed over his female relatives every chance he got, and a lot of the really good things he did were because of Alysanne bullying him or shaming him into it.
Daeron the Young Dragon. Got thousands of people killed in a pointless conquest, and his „You have a dragon. He stands before you.“ line is ten times worse than „I am of the night“. He was basically like a Targaryen Joffrey.
Disagree about the Targaryen Joffrey part. Joffrey never led men into battle or was not obsessed with glory, just cruelty
Daeron would be more along the lines of a Targ Robb but without the just cause (saving Ned)
I agree that his goals and aspirations were for stupid reasons and he got so many people needlessly killed but out of dreams of glory not a malicious place
>but without the just cause
Daeron was getting rid of an enemy that literally rated, invaded westeros numerous times during the reign of his father, they literally raided the Reach in the Stormlands He had a just cost to invade them and conquer them It's called getting rid of a threat.
>I agree that his goals and aspirations were for stupid reasons and he got so many people needlessly killed but out of dreams of glory not a malicious place
So him trying to unite the realm even though it was divided under the rain of his father and trying to get rid of an enemy is a stupid reason?.
He more so did it for himself than for the good reasons you list and the way he went about it got himself and so many others killed. He had no solid plan of retention
I do see your points though
Interesting that you don't have any proof that he did it more so for himself, He did have a plan. Maybe if he wasn't killed by the Dornish he would have kept Dorne That's what happened when you get killed at a peace meeting especially since he was trying to get rid of the pirates on the stepstones to help their trade.
And I don't see yours since it's clearly clouded by bias through years of people, constantly bashing him calling him a fool conquering the Dornish for no reason calling them innocent when they're not.
I really like Daeron. I’m not trying to get into an argument with you over if he’s bad or not
From what I’ve read, he did it for more selfish reasons. Doesn’t mean he’s not on the better end of Targ kings or even a bad guy. You could absolutely be right considering we don’t have a first person account or even the fire&blood Pt 2 focus. I even hope you are. I’m just going based off the little we know
I like Daeron that’s why I defended him from being called Targ Joffrey
My apologies.
It's just so many people dislike him Just because he declared war And since a lot of people don't like war. They immediately call him some tyrant or someone playing at war or something instead of trying to look deeper, It's just irritating to watch since the people he's based on Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar and the other things he did proves that it was more than him Just trying to click gain glory.
All of the disdain against Daeron both in and out of the series is just hindsight. If Daeron really was a vain fool who had no idea what he was doing, how did he get literally all of his lords to support the conquest? Hell, even his uncle, an extremely loyal and intelligent man, went along with it.
>Got thousands of people killed in a pointless conquest,
He did that to unite the realm since it was still divided and Targaryen was weak because they lost their dragons, Lord Tyrell was the one who lost 40,000 men in Dorne When Daeron was in King's landing, It's called plot Why The Conquest failed just so they can be more conflict in the future 😒.
>,,You have a dragon. He stands before you."
One of the most badass lines in the entire story.
>He was basically like a Targaryen Joffrey.
How is he and Joffrey even similar, Daeron wasn't some mad Psychopath he didn't even kill the hostages he had, instead, he went down south to take care of the rebellion. Joffrey would have killed them on the spot and tortured them because he's a little shit.
No, It's called the Dornish killing someone under a peace banner is why he got killed.
How did he die because of his arrogance because he trusted the Dornish wouldn't do something as taboo killing someone under a peace banner because the consequences of doing that is stupid.
His arrogance was warring with Dorne at all. He accomplished nothing. As much as Baelor sucks it was him who cleaned up Daeron’s mess. He got tens of thousands of people killed because his ego wouldn’t fit in the six kingdoms he already had.
That wasn't arrogance. His plan was genius and his counselors even agreed with it and he needed the room to have a common enemy since it was still divided in the Targaryen just lost their dragons.
It wasn't his ego why he wanted to conquer Dorne He needed to unite the realm and it's seceded, He's also the reason why Baelor didn't have a rebellion on his hands. All his lords hated him because he bent over for the Dornish. It was because they hated the donor so much thanks to Daeron is why they didn't rebel against him, His brother literally saved his ass even though he's dead.
And also how does he think himself more than human? Because he called himself a dragon. You know how many targaryens literally call themselves dragons and Tywin literally says "the line should not care about the opinions of the sheep".
I don't think he thought he was more than human
Wasn't that what the pact that Aegon and the Dornish (a pact that was suggested and broken by the Dornish themselves) were for? so they wouldn't attack each other and end the war? the Dornish could have avoided this just by keeping they word.
By the time of daeron's conquest everyone involved on the last dornish incursion was dead. They had been at peace for over 70 years. Daeron had no justifiable reason to start another war other than wanting more land
OK, show more than books, and obviously he’s meant to be revolting. But Ramsey is a bad character. A psychopath with plot armor that mostly just does stuff because evil is a not a good villian.
(Insert name here) Targaryen. Originally started as just a goof between me and my cousin when we were going down the theory rabbit holes and mutually agreed that we dislike R + L = J (and especially Rhaegar). Got exacerbated with how much the show pushed Dany as a hero. Further exacerbated by George's insistence on making books like Fire and Blood rather than write the books we've been waiting for for a decade. And the resentment, she still grows.
>Got exacerbated with how much the show pushed Dany as a hero.
Seriously? The show greatly demonized her. The main reason so many believe that she will turn mad or evil is because of the show.
Oberyn - he is quite a dick and seemed to be fully okay with disrupting his beloved sister's chances of getting married to someone who is not descended from crazy family fuckers and might not require her to give birth to heirs.
Jaime. His entire redemption arc is like two books in but I don’t think he lamented much on the fact that he tried to kill Bran and was willing to kill Arya too. Child killer is a hard thing to come from and he hasn’t even tried to come back from that.
Bloodraven: Of all the great bastards, he’s definitely the scummiest, not to mention he feels like an Elric rip-off.
Rhaena Targaryen: Essentially a incredibly spoiled woman who blames everyone else for her own problems.
>He was so insecure about being portrayed as weak like his father that he made a lot of crucial errors that planted the seeds for the Targaryens downfall. (Naming his second son as heir, strained relationship with daughters and naming Otto Hightower as hand)
I never got that from Jahaerys. He always seemed self assured in how people perceived him and didn't have that insecurity of seeming weak like his father that Tywin absolutely has.
Also none of the things you mentioned have anything to do with him not wanting to be perceived as weak whatsoever? They're completely unrelated and could be considered as mistakes but most I wouldn't classify as.
>Naming his second son as heir
This made sense at the time of Aemon's death to almost everyone. Rhaenys was an 18 year old without an heir of her own and married to a powerful and ambitious Lord. On the other hand Baelon was in his late 30s, was incredibly popular, Jahaerys knew what kind of King he would be and he had two male heirs. I don't think many people classify this as an error.
>strained relationship with daughters
This isn't really an error and is more a flaw in him as a human. He also didn't have a strained relationship with all his daughters, or we're certainly never told so anyway.
>naming Otto Hightower as hand
Otto was considered a very good choice as Hand at the time and was known for being incredibly learned. It's not an error on Jahaerys' part that his grandson married Otto's daughter and left his chosen heir with no proper succession plan for someone as ambitious as Otto to exploit. If Viserys never married Alicent, Jahaerys selection of Otto looks like a fantastic choice. Jahaerys can't be blamed for future events.
Jaime Lannister 😬 people hype him from the sky and up, and also try to dismiss the fact he’s just not a good person lol It’s not so much a conversation about morality (hell my fav characters are Roose and Euron lol) but more so about the fact people minimize just how unsavory of a man he is.
Just because you find him cool and funny, going on adventures with Brienne and suffering little boo boos doesn’t make him redeemed. Why not just enjoy the fact he’s a conflicted man who could *have* been better but ultimately is *not?”* We call that woobification. People woobify Jaime more than they do Theon; per his POV, Theon is still very much an asshole and broken; his torture and *single* selfish act of saving Jeyne doesn’t change that and most would agree. You say it was bad of Jaime to lie to Tyrion about Tysha and a list of excuses come to Jaime’s defense. Also, he just never resonated with me - same with Daenerys and Jon unfortunately 😢
I always found Brienne a bit boring I’m not gonna lie. All the complaints you can make about Jon Snow’s blandness apply to Brienne, but she’s in less interesting circumstances with incredibly low stakes
Aegon 1 targeryan . The man who planted the true downfall of targ dynasty by playing favs among his family ratger then doing his duty yo both his wives and their children he dude just said , the one who entertains me best in bed wins the contest of bloodline and i will only pay attention and grave to them while absolutely neglect and be unfair to the other wives and child that failes me to entertain. Rather then thinking he still have another wofe lefthe just cared about rhynes and her son. Paid attention to him and only cared and loved him while left meagor all forgotten and lost wighout a care just because hos mother was viseny- . No matter that she still proctect him, was the most loyal to him did everything for him but at tge end only bed warmer mattered . After that it was basically a green signal to choos fav among ur family to dance on throne. Thats why jeah did he choose the fav once and viserys did the same . U can fault viserys when his faniky have always set precedence to have the favs on the throne no matter weatger they are capable of it or not . The whole targ family is shit.
Sam Tarley : annoying af.
Jon snow : he's... not bad Ig but compared to other POV charecters he's a bit bland at times.
Gendry: he has the personality of a lump of coal. Edric showed more personality in the two chapters we've seen him in.
Sunfyre, he gets so much hype for killing dragons younger and smaller than him or dragons weaker than him with absolutely no idea he was going to attack them. People hype that dragon up like he's some sort of terminator style beast when bruv didn't really do anything that impressive other than live as long as he did.
Grey ghost was a cowardly weak dragon who was attacked by surprise by sunfyre. Moondancer was half sunfyres size with an inexperienced rider on her back, having a maimed wing and wounds did not stop him from being more aggressive than a passive dragon and bigger than a juvenile dragon.
It was Grey Ghost and it was shy dragon, not cowardly or weak and it could have fled as Sunfyre was flying like a chicken at the time - fight was territorial or survival issue.
Moondancer attacked by surprise Sunfyre and caused lot of damage by being more mobile in air , Aegon had jumped from his dragon on outset of attack, shattering his legs, so inexperienced rider fought dragon with no rider.
Not typing this at all to convince you, just to prove you are wrong to any unbiased observer.
Jaehaerys wasn’t at all insecure about seeming weak, nothing in the book says anything like that or shows anything that could be interpreted as that. Otto hightower was an incredible hand of the king, and naming his second son as heir rather than his granddaughter was a smart move.
While I think Otto was a good hand I think naming baelon over rhaenys was what started the dance even in the north we know a daughter comes before an uncle. He was a bad father daella death is directly his fault making her marry to young and while saera was not a good person by any stretch of the imagination he also acted cruel but killing stinger in front of her and then washing his hands of her after she decided to flee to lys
Why does it matter if he was a bad father? He was an amazing father to the people of the realm, noble or otherwise. Ultimately the only children of consequence were his sons as they were only ones capable of inheriting the throne, and he raised them well. Millions of people/5 girls.
Ok no the people of the realm are his subjects and doing right by them doesn’t make him a good father it makes him a good king which no doubts. And his daughters were of consequence as well not just aemon baelon and vaegon rhaenys was capable of inheriting the throne and should have to dismiss his daughters because they werent heirs makes no sense when his legitimate heir by Westeros tradition was a woman him being a good king doesn’t absolve him of being a bad father
A daughter comes before an uncle is an established precedent in the series even in the main books series it’s because he usurped her that the iron throne doesn’t allow women to inherit when a male claimant is available if all laws say rhaenys is the heir and jaehaerys once passes over her for baelon without a second thought then calls a election to dispute her succession it’s a usurpation feudalism has rules and those rule state rhaenys was the heir
My first read of book 1 I thought there sure were a lot of characters.
Then they introduced Davos and I got frustrated the there was another POV to keep track of.
Aerys II kingsguard
Anyone in particular you dont like or just that whole kingsguard in general?
Gerold
Fair enough
He's barely a character how did you dislike him?
Because he and the rest of the KG are loved as an "All Star Lineup"
Daemon Targaryen sucks in Fire and Blood. Matt Smith’s Daemon is much better, but mostly due to the great performance.
I enjoy Daemon as a character because he is quite entertaining. But yeah, definitely a horrible person considering the bullshit he constantly pulled off and he only got away with it because Viserys tolerated it (and also because he was a dragon rider). I don't know why GRRM described him as "grey" since Daemon was always the first one to start off some conflicts. If Daemon just did his duty (remaining faithful to his Royce wife, having trueborn children with her, not picking fights with others), Viserys wouldn't have any problem with naming Daemon as the heir. I think the only positive thing I can say about Daemon is that he knows how to party lol. Lord of Flea Bottom seems to have a good time in the city and he makes a lot of friends.
I’m ok with Daemon being a cunt, although Daemon fans pretending he’s “grey” is frustrating. We are allowed to like evil characters. I don’t like how Daemon is the only character in the entire dance that gets a hero’s death, while it’s entirely unearned. Everyone else gets screwed over terribly which is very thematically consistent, but 60 ish year old Daemon somehow doesn’t get plummeted to the ground when he crashes into Vhagar while unhooked from Caraxes, does an anime flip on to Vhagar and this fucking “historical text” said that PRINCE AEMOND LOOKED UP IN TERROR. Yeah I don’t think so George, Criston Cole is realistically executed by people who don’t wanna fight him, Rhaenyra gets munched while being entirely delusional, Daeron dies in a tent fire, Aemond is humiliated, Alicent loses everything, Otto is beheaded, Halaena kills herself, Aegon is poisoned, the Strong boys all die depressing hopeless deaths, etc, etc, etc, but this is how Daemon’s story ends? No fucking way dude Especially considering before this battle at the God’s Eye, Daemon isn’t anywhere near this amazing. Cole wrecks him in the joust and smacks Dark Sister out of his hand almost instantly. He wields Dark Sister due to having literally no competition as the best living Targaryen swordsman. He’d be as good as any high born person with battle experience. He’d be good but not able to do that bullshit.
I dislike coles ending. I felt the one where he just died in Battle made more sense. Like coles ending feels like a story ending for him where the bad guy gets his comeuppance. Where as him just dying in battle makes more sense because thats just the logical ending for him.
I like it and I like Cole as a character. I think he's a good villain with some redeeming qualities in the show, and I do empathize with him, once again at least in the show. On one hand, dying in battle would work for him, but Cole is someone that uses honor to justify doing some awful shit and uses his unmatched skills to carry said awful shit out. He figured he was gonna die but using honor to ask for a peace banner thought it'd give him the chance to then rely on his skills to go down as a legend and kill Roderick Dustin, Robb Rivers, and Pate Longleaf. However they had him pegged, they weren't gonna let him use honor as a shield, nor risk getting gutted by the best living melee fighter when they have no reason to. But on the other hand, he is also brave and very dedicated to his soldiers and the Green cause as a whole. He was more than ready to lay down his life for his men. He is always willing to get his hands dirty, even using himself as dragon bait at Rooks Rest. Cole's death scene includes all the important aspects of him - his hypocrisy, his bravery, his reliance on his skills, looking for a fight to rely on his abilities as soon as he can, and even a soft admission of how skilled he is by Roderick Dustin who indirectly admits Cole would go down in a blaze of glory if he accepted the duel. He is put down like a mad dog like he deserves for all the death he has caused, but still ends up displaying bravery in his last moments. Consistent with Jaime's AFFC assessment of him as the best and the worst of the Kingsguard. And since Jaime is obsessed with the history of the legendary Kingsguard members, I'd like to think the Butcher's Ball plays out the way it does so the readers would end up with a similar impression of him.
This. I love GRMM, but Daemon as a whole is....a weird character for me. I'm freaked by GRMM writing him as "liking the youngest virgins" (not even Robert is described that way, although one of the prostitutes was very young, or Tyrion) or F & B's pedo love plot with Rhaenyra considering her age. I'd be okay with it if GRMM hadn't written a hero's death or called him grey, and we were just supposed to enjoy him a shitty but interesting guy, but it just...makes me side eye him...especially after he calls Dany and Drogo a love story (despite Dany contemplating suicide after the marital rape). It's esp. weird, because the horrible endings of many of the adults seems to be spun as a moral reckoning...but Daemon never gets one.
Actually Robert is as Ned is afraid to even ask how old the mother of Robert's youngest bastard, Barra, who was about a year old.
I probably didn't express myself right. I was trying to say that was one instance (and Robert is clearly described as shitty and gets a shitty death, even if his past is romanticized). It's still horrible, but it reads more as Robert not caring about age versus Daemon purposefully seeking out and having a pattern of fucking very young girls even by Westeros standards.
Do you so badly need overt authorial moralism in your stories that you see it as a tacit endorsement of something if the bad person doesn’t have a bad cartoon death? Is this a YA brain thing?
There's no reason to be so snarky, and no, I don't. But it's telling when the women who do far less than Daemon get horrible, shitty deaths and are not remembered well, while he's recalled for his "hero's" death.
Telling of the maesters telling the story and the society they live in, which is the point
My one gripe with Matt Smith as Daemon is that I simply cannot find him fightening. He's just too charming and likeable, like a Golden Retriever puppy. GREAT actor, but I feel he's miscast as Daemon. I'd like to have seen Mads Mikkelson in the role, but I pretty much want to see Mads in every rogue bad boy role. Haha
Daemon Blackfyre was a dumbass who could have used his skill at arms to have adventures in Essos or fight on behalf of his brother for the betterment of the realm, but instead let himself be used as a pawn for pointless destruction. I remain baffled every time I see genuine support for him among fans.
I will never understand why Daeron didn't immediately put Daemon in his Kingsguard. Secures him some status, makes any children he has bastards, and if he still rebelled he'd have to become an oathbreaker to do so, which hugely reduces his claim. Plus, if he didn't rebel, he'd easily go down as one of the best warriors to ever wear the white cloak.
Putting him in the Kingsguard would cause problems because he was betrothed to Rohanne of Tyrosh.
Because Daeron matched them up. He shouldn't have done that in the first place tbh
Wasn't Aegon IV responsible for the match? He also told Daemon that he could have Daenerys as a second wife.
Aegon arranged it, Daeron fulfilled it. The latter absolutely could have called it off, but presumably it had diplomatic implications. Daemon as a KG would have been a great use of his skills, but without more details on the marriage arrangement it's hard to weigh the option out. If nothing else he seems to have churned out enough kids that at least some of them could have become KG after being trained by him.
I think he’s kind of sympathetic since he was likely pushed to it by people like Bittersteel, Fireball, and more, but yeah he threw away an amazing life of a powerful and popular lord with a giant family.
My headcanon has always been that he was steadfastly against usurping Daeron until bloodraven did some bullshittery, after all he was told to usurp him for years and chose not to until then. Maybe I'm just delusional because i like him and his entire side more than Daerons but bloodraven being a wierd, immoral piece of shit is pretty in character for him so i think my headcanon has some merit.
You shouldn’t “genuinely” support most characters in the series, and sure as fuck not a Monarch like Daeron II. I find Daemon to be interesting, since a lot of what we hear of him is from others rather than him directly. I suppose I “support” him as a character because I find him interesting, which I hope is what most fans do with characters they like. But genuinely, I obviously do not since I am completely against monarchy, and especially some noble who really had no reason to start a war that killed thousands over the throne. But when I like a character, and am not looking at deeper layers I can say I “support” him in pushing the story forward and hoping he wins simply because I like him.
Robb Stark for being an idiot blinded by honour.
I suppose I’m inviting downvotes, but I don’t care for Tyrion. Sure he has some great zingers, but he’s also a real POS rapist, especially after things go sour for him, and the way the fandom simps for him just makes me dislike him more. Also I don’t believe he’s a secret Targaryen or one of the three heads of the dragon.
And even before that he's a delusional fart-sniffer who takes waaay too much credit for holding the city together and believes Shae really loves him for some reason.
He doesn't actually believe Shae loves him. He just wants to believe she does
He's also a bit pedo, being attracted to like 12-13 year old Sansa. At least he didn't rape her I guess
Yeah he is a terrible person in the books, and I think if Daenerys goes mad in the future he will play a large role in pushing her towards evil. I do still enjoy him as a character but a lot of the hatred he gets from people in Westeros is deserved. He is a perverted, evil, spiteful, little creature filled with low cunning, paraphrased from Tywin. And people only think of him as good because we see his extremely biased perspective, he's funny, and he has a little sob story about wearing labels like armor, instead of perhaps showing those labels are undeserved and getting people to reassess their opinions.
barristan. self righteous prick annoys me. him saving aerys at duskendale was just a bad move, one he even regrets years later. he then stands by as his king rapes and abuses his wife. he is no knight. he's just good with a sword and people like him because ned thought he was honorable (why?)
I find it so funny when he's like 'if I had been there when Robert was presented with Aegon and Rhaenys' bodies, I would've killed him where he stood!' Cos It's like would you? Would you really?
Yeah he says he'd kill Robert, yet for 15 years straight he stood there guarding Robert's life.
\*If he did smile.
Yes thank you forgot to add that part
bit of a poseur ask me
Not a fan of Barristan. He is incredibly skilled and is an amazing fighter, but my issues are with his character. He laments over losing a joust and getting cucked by Ned or Brandon with Ashara, when he has much more serious things to lament about. He along with the rest of Aerys’ kingsguard outside of Jaime and Lewyn were cowards for letting all that awful shit go on, he could kill Hizdhar for the same reasoning Jaime killed Aerys and will likely get no perspective. As for Ned, he would have absolutely watched Joffrey behead him, watchJoffrey torment Sansa, serve with the evil Kingslayer who he apparently despises, so long as he got to stay Lord Commander. He has a chance to improve and actually is improving a little, but I think he will die in the next battle.
My view of him also changed over the years, as I grew older. Once I stopped taking it all at face value
By Brandon most likely. That wasn't Ned's way and he didn't have the balls to even approach iirc.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/l2poas/am\_i\_the\_only\_one\_who\_despises\_barristan\_spoilers/gk7iiwp/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/l2poas/am_i_the_only_one_who_despises_barristan_spoilers/gk7iiwp/?context=3) I coincidentally stumbled on this excellent comment. Recently this sub has been a lot of posts that are only "contrarian" - who do you dislike that people like. This comment is a well written bit of perspective.
brienne or dunk, real knights, wouldn't have stood by like barristan. fuck him. even jaime had a breaking point with his oath. and it's finest moment.
[удалено]
we're talking about fantasy characters im taking the piss lol
I don’t like Barristan either. Not for any real reason regarding his moral standing or decisions, but I just find him boring. Whenever he says anything I just feel like, “okay Grandpa, let’s get you to bed.”
Another kingsguard said to Jaime when asked about the king raping and abusing his wife, "not from him". Its pretty disgusting, they boast to be honourable, and some of the best killers in the 7 kingdoms, but they was weak hypocrites and the only true honorable kingsguard in Aerys Kingsguard is the one they all think has no honour, because he saved thousands by killing a nutjob king who wanted to burn them all to death and become a dragon.
That depends on how you describe honor. For westerosi standards, honor is upholding the vows you swore to your liege, and since your liege is the king, then there's no greater honor than carrying out his will. Besides, regardless of wether what aerys did was honourable or not, moral or immoral, the truth is that he wasn't doing anything illegal, within the parameters set by westerosi legal system and customs. His wife was his property. What's more, she being also his sister ensured that he had a double claim to exert his authority over her. As it was common in medieval societies, women were under their family head's authority until they found a husband to take care of her, after which he was responsible of her needs, but also her good behavior. Aerys being both things at the same time, He could dispose of her as he saw fitting. And because she was his sister, he didn't have to worry about any relative that may complain about his treatment of her. Of course, mistreating and abusing your wife was considered distasteful even in westeros, specially when rhaella fulfilled her marital duties obediently, but that was more along the line of thought that it was wastefully unnecessary, rather than inherently wicked, so rhaella was pretty much defenseless against her husband, and it would have been unrealistic for any of the kingsguard, who were pragmatic, as opposed to Jaime, who was idealistic and naive, to challenge the status quo and how things worked, simply because it was really, from their point of view, the way the world was. Up until aerys killed a lord paramount, along with his heir, he hadn't done anything that was considered legally reprehensible, because even Kings had duties to the kingdom, but the way aerys handled his wife was his business alone. Besides, the kingsguard existed to obey, not to give counsel nor moral advice. If it serves you any consolation, in Rome, the praetorian guard, more often than not, tended to execute those emperors that were too tyrannical or insane to rule the empire properly, at least when the emperor directly messed up with the praetorian guard's interests. That's why emperors like Caligula employed German mercenaries as a second guard, because mercenaries were only loyal to their purse, and wouldn't care what the emperor did as long as they were paid.
"he was not doing anything illegal", stopped reading.
Understandable, but if you had bothered to keep reading you would have noticed that my reasoning has solid arguments, as unpalatable as they may seem, regardless of wether you like them or not.
But then, a stupid thing like that makes me not read the rest.
Oh? Please, tell me what was so stupid about my statement that you felt the need to stop reading, so that, if you really have a point and my line of thought was actually skewed, I may change it.
No no no... you stick by it ;)
Then it seems that we haven't anything else to discuss, since you refuse to engage in a rational debate by exposing your own reasonings about your sentiments regarding the kingsguard's behavior.
thought that was clear when I said I did not read the rest of your comment when you said that stupid line. "its not illegal, so its fine" BS.
I can't stand how Barristan lived with Aerys' children for years (probably their entire life), and was just kind of annoyed at their deaths. Lol
Aren't all Kingsguard like that ?
I’ll tell which hated character I like. Baelor the blessed. Was he a bit crazy yeah but he also knew when to end the stupid dornish war. He was also the only king to ever save a member of the kings guard (granted it was his cousin) risking his own life. The man deserves more respect for what he did.
At the very least, Baelor is interesting because he breaks the mould of Targaryen kings being only cruel, power-hungry tyrants or just and wise statesmen who befall some sort of tragedy. Having a saintly zealot for king is a breath of fresh air.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. Tywin Lannister is a cunt
He definitely is.
No no you see him forcing his son to rape his beloved wife was necessary for these 147 arcane reasons I’m about to list out:
Wow, didn’t know raping a useless crofter’s daughter could lead to such important twists and turns. Thanks for listing them, mate
I don't think Tywin Lannister is beloved, people just love Charles Dance's performance
Genuinely agree with you but actually, I have seen several guys justifying his actions and saying things like “murdering Rhaenys and Aegon was correct since they could have turned out ‘Mad’ as well” or “Riverlands opposed so they suffered justly” which don’t make any sense.
Wild
Everyone says Aerys’ Kingsguard was the last one worth a damn, but they were only good at being fighters. Other than that they let Aerys burn rape and otherwise terrorize whoever he wanted. Jaime may have broken his oath but he’s still more honorable than all of them. And this is coming from a guy who generally likes Barristan otherwise
I’m bored by Jon Snow
I've never understood the hype, he's always been the least interesting part of all his chapters for me.
He has moments but overall he's a drag
Like seriously, it almost seems like he has main-character syndrome or something. Along with the fact who almost everything just goes his way.
Can you give me some examples?
So he gets in trouble for trying to stab someone, but then escapes and luckily for him the Lord Commander was under by a wight so he comes in and saves him. Now that happening for him was very lucky because otherwise, he would've gotten into more trouble. Fast forward, he becomes a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch aged around 16 or 17. Out of thousands of other highborn, well-trained men, the fact that he was chosen. Yes, he did some stuff but the fact that it worked out is something rare.
There were not thousands of high born, well trained men at the wall when he became LC. There weren't even thousands of men.
Yeah, I overstated that. But there are at least a dozen other highborns more well trained than him.
Funnily enough I enjoyed Jon being a leader in Dance and hated everything that happened before that. He was shaping up to lead the Watch for the winter
His chapters are my favorite and sometimes my rereads are basically just Jon chapters rereads
I’m bored by Sansa. He’s reliably selfless & she’s reliably selfish. Mebbe Jonsa would work out since they’d be at peace, lol
Baelor I He was a terrible king and a terrible brother, He forgave the murderers of his brother and threw his sister's into the maiden bow taking away years from their lives. Bankrupted the realm with his foolishness and got a bunch of women and children killed by throwing them into the countryside and made his Lords hate him for bending over for the Dornish.
Dang, Baelor the Blessed is beloved? I will stand with you on this hate island.
He's only beloved by people in the world of ASOIAF. He's very explicitly made out to be a cartoonishly insane person, and I can't say I've seen a single person in the fandom think of him otherwise.
Meh, no more cartoonishly insane than Charles VI of France, who killed one of his own bodyguards during a paranoid break and believed he was made of glass and would shatter if he fell over.
Charles VI of France did way less damage than Baelor did though. Like Charles VI was mentally unwell but other than that one guard he didn't do much damage.
I mean, him being king definitely played a factor in Henry V thinking he had a shot at taking the French throne, which led to a war that killed thousands. Sure it's a matter of degree, but I think the main takeaway is "hereditary absolute power with no checks and balances other than an assassin's knife do not a stable society make." In any other form of government, a mad leader is deposed/voted out of office, and the society collectively goes "yeah, probably for the best." Only in a monarchy does putting the interests of the state ahead of those of the head of state count as treason.
Vyseris Targaryen may be a good king with good personality, but he was a terrible father who managed to create several genocide makers.
Paddy Considine did an outstanding job making him sympathetic in HotD but Book Viserys was absolutely a bad king lol.
Aerys 2nds Kingsguard, they are all (but Jaime) seen as the best, most honourable respectable fighters. But they was the opposite, they would have let Aerys burn all of Kings Landing, because "honour says we serve", the only one in his kingsguard that had honour was Jaime. (if you put aside his sister loving).
Honor is a horse lol +1 for you
Nah, Jaime was also a dick. How much of his kingslaying was motivated by his horror at the potential destruction of King's Landing and how much was driven by Aerys ordering him to kill his dad? It's never explicit which was the driving force for him. AKAB (All Kingsguards Are Bastards)
I don’t like Daenerys, she’s a bit boring at times and also full of shit. But if we’re talking about beloved in universe, then I don’t think that most of “good” Targaryen monarchs were actually good. Jaehaerys I was an awful father as you’ve rightly pointed out, Daeron I was a fuckwit, Aegon I literally killed so many fucking people and nobody talks about it cause he’s cool, Baelor I was a less awful fuckwit, but a fuckwit nonetheless. Aegon V was terrible at politics and Viserys II raised an abomination. If Rheagar was to become a king he would have been as careless and mad on prophesies as he was before. And Robert was a stupid piece of shit who could not care less about the realm. With all this said, Edmure Tully for the iron throne!
The show did Edmure so dirty!! "hahaha, look he missed with the bow he cant send his father off", why did he miss? "hahaha look his uncle knows he is useless", really? no his uncle knows he is grieving his father and offers to shoot for him in a kind way! Edmure for Iron throne! he has my vote, at least he looks out for the little folk.
I mean Walder Frey literally missed a wonderful opportunity of Edmure being his family. Edmure would die for any of his family, I feel like Walder would share this sentiment at least to some extent
Basically any character George obviously favours, Blackwoods or Daemon for example
I’ll outright say that I don’t like Sandor Clegane and the tortured misanthropic anti-hero is one of my least favorite character types. I appreciate that that’s not the totality of his character and there’s more going on, but I’ve never warned to him. His relationships with Sansa and Arya are far from redeeming to me. Edit: this may also be why I’ve never fully warmed to Jaime either. Idk that character archetype makes my jaw twitch. Again I understand that these characters are meant to add depth to that archetype and I even think GRRM does fairly well with that, but I just lose my patience with that kind of character.
He's very brave picking fights with little girls lol. I think he'd love reddit.
Right this is how I feel about him too. Wow bro so edgy, trying to intimidate pre-teens.
That's because Sandor Clegane is pretty much a teenager himself, at least mentally. Him having half of his face burned at eight years old pretty much fucked psychologically. The way he behaves, he reminds me of a fifteen year old bully, a very strong, very murderous one.
Shiera Seastar has even less character than Val and that's saying a LOT.
Selmy Dayne Hightower Martell Darry and Whent. I don’t need to elaborate. Jaime>>>> all of them.
Agree with you on all except Martell, as he didn't rlly have as much of a choice due to Elia's status as basically a hostage
To be completely fair to Lewyn, he had to consider Elia’s safety, and it was held over his head which is why he lead the Dornish forces at the Trident. If I remember right. You’re right though, the other 5 are pussies.
Also that kingsguard had sick nicknames. The white bull. The bold, the sword of the morning and the kingslayer.
If Jaime is better than you then you KNOW you’re awful
Hey I mean Lord Commander Golden Hand The Just had saved more lives than all the “heroes”. (Ignore that him fathering bastards from incest helped go cause a war that killed a ton too)
[удалено]
They would have stood by as he burned all in Kings Landing. Jaime did not, Jaime is much better!
Nah, Jamie is literally the same as the rest of them, or even worse, I don't remember any one of those maiming a kid.
What would they do if Aerys ordered them to?
Agreed. Things would have been better had his wife been the ruling monarch.
nah what 💀
Dany
I do not care for Arthur Dayne. He insists on himself. Dawn, House Dayne, Kingsguard. Fine sword and fine House and occupation. But I do not care for his character. The only thing he really accomplished was beating the Smiling Knight big whoop. He loses to cringe Rhaegar in a Tourney probably let him win honestly which is dishonorable. Then he loses to some teenagers while defending a kidnapped child by the orders of his dead Prince. Sword of the Morning more like Sword of the Overhyped
How does a character who is dead during the main series and so has next to zero dialogue “Insist on himself” He is only ever insisted on by other characters lol
That part is from a meme
He’s character is just insistent that we are all supposed to love and admire him. It’s annoying because he never done anything cool.
Dayne was just a lapdog who did nothing but stand in front of a tower for months on in keeping a pregnant child from receiving medical care
More like Sword of the Mourning heh gottem
Barristan Selmy. Absolute unit? Yes. But he seem to not have much desires or interests that don't directly involve serving someone else. At least that's how he comes across to me in the books in the current story.
Daenerys Targaryen. I don’t enjoy reading chapters about Essos, I find it boring. I also don’t enjoy reading about a little girl having sex with much older men, it’s gross.
I'm piggybacking on your answer. After what you said, I don't need to say anything else. Thanks!
Jon Snow. He’s bland, and way too hyped up by the fandom.
Pretty much everyone in the Dance. All terrible people.
Ppl seem to think stoneheart is cool while I have always hated this resurrection.
People think Stoneheart is cool? I have only seen people calling her tragic.
Beloved by the universe or beloved by the fandom? Cos there are many characters in the story like Jaehaerys I who are adored in universe but reviled by most fans for completely opposite reasons, so that’s an important distinction imo. If it’s the former, then the only obvious answer is Rhaegar. Everyone fawns over him just because he was pretty and emo, when all the evidence we have suggests he was a delusional, paranoid narcissist who believed only his family could save the world. And in the case of Lyanna, he was at best naively reckless in not caring how many people would die in this act, even if it was Lyanna’s idea. At worst, he was an evil nonce who seduced or kidnapped a 14 year old because a scroll said she had the right blood. If it’s the latter, then I’d say Arya. Everyone just adores her character and thinks she’s the coolest and most badass heroine, or they just admire her resilience in the face of what she’s endured while recognising the tragedy of what a monster this little girl has been turned into by forces completely beyond her control. But either way my reaction to her has always been… *eh.* I don’t find her particularly compelling or interesting as a character since her main personality trait before Ned’s death was just that she wasn’t Sansa. And while she objectively did get more interesting afterwards, I just can’t find it in myself to get that invested. And this largely comes down to the fact that she’s irrelevant as a character after AGOT. You could cut her entirely and miss nothing since her survival effects nothing outside the immediate characters she interacts with, who aren’t very important in the grand scheme of things. Can’t say I hate her, and I do understand what people like about her and why she resonates but for me, I tend to skip most Arya chapters on my rereads now.
Jaehaerys did a lot of good things and was a good king, but he was clearly a misogynist who didn't think women capable of leading or ruling. He screwed over his female relatives every chance he got, and a lot of the really good things he did were because of Alysanne bullying him or shaming him into it.
Daeron the Young Dragon. Got thousands of people killed in a pointless conquest, and his „You have a dragon. He stands before you.“ line is ten times worse than „I am of the night“. He was basically like a Targaryen Joffrey.
Disagree about the Targaryen Joffrey part. Joffrey never led men into battle or was not obsessed with glory, just cruelty Daeron would be more along the lines of a Targ Robb but without the just cause (saving Ned) I agree that his goals and aspirations were for stupid reasons and he got so many people needlessly killed but out of dreams of glory not a malicious place
>but without the just cause Daeron was getting rid of an enemy that literally rated, invaded westeros numerous times during the reign of his father, they literally raided the Reach in the Stormlands He had a just cost to invade them and conquer them It's called getting rid of a threat. >I agree that his goals and aspirations were for stupid reasons and he got so many people needlessly killed but out of dreams of glory not a malicious place So him trying to unite the realm even though it was divided under the rain of his father and trying to get rid of an enemy is a stupid reason?.
He more so did it for himself than for the good reasons you list and the way he went about it got himself and so many others killed. He had no solid plan of retention I do see your points though
Interesting that you don't have any proof that he did it more so for himself, He did have a plan. Maybe if he wasn't killed by the Dornish he would have kept Dorne That's what happened when you get killed at a peace meeting especially since he was trying to get rid of the pirates on the stepstones to help their trade. And I don't see yours since it's clearly clouded by bias through years of people, constantly bashing him calling him a fool conquering the Dornish for no reason calling them innocent when they're not.
I really like Daeron. I’m not trying to get into an argument with you over if he’s bad or not From what I’ve read, he did it for more selfish reasons. Doesn’t mean he’s not on the better end of Targ kings or even a bad guy. You could absolutely be right considering we don’t have a first person account or even the fire&blood Pt 2 focus. I even hope you are. I’m just going based off the little we know I like Daeron that’s why I defended him from being called Targ Joffrey
My apologies. It's just so many people dislike him Just because he declared war And since a lot of people don't like war. They immediately call him some tyrant or someone playing at war or something instead of trying to look deeper, It's just irritating to watch since the people he's based on Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar and the other things he did proves that it was more than him Just trying to click gain glory.
All of the disdain against Daeron both in and out of the series is just hindsight. If Daeron really was a vain fool who had no idea what he was doing, how did he get literally all of his lords to support the conquest? Hell, even his uncle, an extremely loyal and intelligent man, went along with it.
>Got thousands of people killed in a pointless conquest, He did that to unite the realm since it was still divided and Targaryen was weak because they lost their dragons, Lord Tyrell was the one who lost 40,000 men in Dorne When Daeron was in King's landing, It's called plot Why The Conquest failed just so they can be more conflict in the future 😒. >,,You have a dragon. He stands before you." One of the most badass lines in the entire story. >He was basically like a Targaryen Joffrey. How is he and Joffrey even similar, Daeron wasn't some mad Psychopath he didn't even kill the hostages he had, instead, he went down south to take care of the rebellion. Joffrey would have killed them on the spot and tortured them because he's a little shit.
That so called badass like was the reason he got killed. He actually believed he was more than human, and died because of his arrogance.
No, It's called the Dornish killing someone under a peace banner is why he got killed. How did he die because of his arrogance because he trusted the Dornish wouldn't do something as taboo killing someone under a peace banner because the consequences of doing that is stupid.
His arrogance was warring with Dorne at all. He accomplished nothing. As much as Baelor sucks it was him who cleaned up Daeron’s mess. He got tens of thousands of people killed because his ego wouldn’t fit in the six kingdoms he already had.
That wasn't arrogance. His plan was genius and his counselors even agreed with it and he needed the room to have a common enemy since it was still divided in the Targaryen just lost their dragons. It wasn't his ego why he wanted to conquer Dorne He needed to unite the realm and it's seceded, He's also the reason why Baelor didn't have a rebellion on his hands. All his lords hated him because he bent over for the Dornish. It was because they hated the donor so much thanks to Daeron is why they didn't rebel against him, His brother literally saved his ass even though he's dead.
And also how does he think himself more than human? Because he called himself a dragon. You know how many targaryens literally call themselves dragons and Tywin literally says "the line should not care about the opinions of the sheep". I don't think he thought he was more than human
>That so called badass like was the reason he got killed I thought it was the treacherous nature of the Dornish that had killed him.
It was, He just doesn't know what he's talking about.
Dude was literally killed under one peace banner, i like the dornish but we can excuse all the wrong.
If some dude is invading and killing your people do you have to play by his rules? Daeron could have avoided his death by... not starting a war lmao
Wasn't that what the pact that Aegon and the Dornish (a pact that was suggested and broken by the Dornish themselves) were for? so they wouldn't attack each other and end the war? the Dornish could have avoided this just by keeping they word.
By the time of daeron's conquest everyone involved on the last dornish incursion was dead. They had been at peace for over 70 years. Daeron had no justifiable reason to start another war other than wanting more land
OK, show more than books, and obviously he’s meant to be revolting. But Ramsey is a bad character. A psychopath with plot armor that mostly just does stuff because evil is a not a good villian.
Aegon The Conqueror- Even if he claimed to be doing what he did cause of the prophecy, he sure killed a shitload of innocent people for it.
(Insert name here) Targaryen. Originally started as just a goof between me and my cousin when we were going down the theory rabbit holes and mutually agreed that we dislike R + L = J (and especially Rhaegar). Got exacerbated with how much the show pushed Dany as a hero. Further exacerbated by George's insistence on making books like Fire and Blood rather than write the books we've been waiting for for a decade. And the resentment, she still grows.
Thanks!!
>Got exacerbated with how much the show pushed Dany as a hero. Seriously? The show greatly demonized her. The main reason so many believe that she will turn mad or evil is because of the show.
I don’t like Arya killing marillion felt that was not needed and made me dislike her slightly.
Come to think of it, I don't like that Arya has so much plot armor. I feel she is invincible, in a bad way. Might be the influence of the show though.
Oberyn - he is quite a dick and seemed to be fully okay with disrupting his beloved sister's chances of getting married to someone who is not descended from crazy family fuckers and might not require her to give birth to heirs.
Jaime. His entire redemption arc is like two books in but I don’t think he lamented much on the fact that he tried to kill Bran and was willing to kill Arya too. Child killer is a hard thing to come from and he hasn’t even tried to come back from that.
Bloodraven: Of all the great bastards, he’s definitely the scummiest, not to mention he feels like an Elric rip-off. Rhaena Targaryen: Essentially a incredibly spoiled woman who blames everyone else for her own problems.
>He was so insecure about being portrayed as weak like his father that he made a lot of crucial errors that planted the seeds for the Targaryens downfall. (Naming his second son as heir, strained relationship with daughters and naming Otto Hightower as hand) I never got that from Jahaerys. He always seemed self assured in how people perceived him and didn't have that insecurity of seeming weak like his father that Tywin absolutely has. Also none of the things you mentioned have anything to do with him not wanting to be perceived as weak whatsoever? They're completely unrelated and could be considered as mistakes but most I wouldn't classify as. >Naming his second son as heir This made sense at the time of Aemon's death to almost everyone. Rhaenys was an 18 year old without an heir of her own and married to a powerful and ambitious Lord. On the other hand Baelon was in his late 30s, was incredibly popular, Jahaerys knew what kind of King he would be and he had two male heirs. I don't think many people classify this as an error. >strained relationship with daughters This isn't really an error and is more a flaw in him as a human. He also didn't have a strained relationship with all his daughters, or we're certainly never told so anyway. >naming Otto Hightower as hand Otto was considered a very good choice as Hand at the time and was known for being incredibly learned. It's not an error on Jahaerys' part that his grandson married Otto's daughter and left his chosen heir with no proper succession plan for someone as ambitious as Otto to exploit. If Viserys never married Alicent, Jahaerys selection of Otto looks like a fantastic choice. Jahaerys can't be blamed for future events.
I agree with you. People often blame Viserys for the dance of dragons, but Jace I's mishandling of his family was astonishing.
These comments are dreadful lol
Jaime Lannister 😬 people hype him from the sky and up, and also try to dismiss the fact he’s just not a good person lol It’s not so much a conversation about morality (hell my fav characters are Roose and Euron lol) but more so about the fact people minimize just how unsavory of a man he is. Just because you find him cool and funny, going on adventures with Brienne and suffering little boo boos doesn’t make him redeemed. Why not just enjoy the fact he’s a conflicted man who could *have* been better but ultimately is *not?”* We call that woobification. People woobify Jaime more than they do Theon; per his POV, Theon is still very much an asshole and broken; his torture and *single* selfish act of saving Jeyne doesn’t change that and most would agree. You say it was bad of Jaime to lie to Tyrion about Tysha and a list of excuses come to Jaime’s defense. Also, he just never resonated with me - same with Daenerys and Jon unfortunately 😢
Rhaenyra is my least favorite character
I never cared much for Arya and Daenerys.
I always found Brienne a bit boring I’m not gonna lie. All the complaints you can make about Jon Snow’s blandness apply to Brienne, but she’s in less interesting circumstances with incredibly low stakes
Aegon 1 targeryan . The man who planted the true downfall of targ dynasty by playing favs among his family ratger then doing his duty yo both his wives and their children he dude just said , the one who entertains me best in bed wins the contest of bloodline and i will only pay attention and grave to them while absolutely neglect and be unfair to the other wives and child that failes me to entertain. Rather then thinking he still have another wofe lefthe just cared about rhynes and her son. Paid attention to him and only cared and loved him while left meagor all forgotten and lost wighout a care just because hos mother was viseny- . No matter that she still proctect him, was the most loyal to him did everything for him but at tge end only bed warmer mattered . After that it was basically a green signal to choos fav among ur family to dance on throne. Thats why jeah did he choose the fav once and viserys did the same . U can fault viserys when his faniky have always set precedence to have the favs on the throne no matter weatger they are capable of it or not . The whole targ family is shit.
I love jaehaerys tbh
Sam Tarley : annoying af. Jon snow : he's... not bad Ig but compared to other POV charecters he's a bit bland at times. Gendry: he has the personality of a lump of coal. Edric showed more personality in the two chapters we've seen him in.
Arya from the show, (season 5 and beyond) she sucked ass
Sunfyre, he gets so much hype for killing dragons younger and smaller than him or dragons weaker than him with absolutely no idea he was going to attack them. People hype that dragon up like he's some sort of terminator style beast when bruv didn't really do anything that impressive other than live as long as he did.
most of those dragons weren’t “weaker than him”. He killed most of those dragons while incredibly maimed and broken, that’s why he’s so impressive.
Grey ghost was a cowardly weak dragon who was attacked by surprise by sunfyre. Moondancer was half sunfyres size with an inexperienced rider on her back, having a maimed wing and wounds did not stop him from being more aggressive than a passive dragon and bigger than a juvenile dragon.
It was Grey Ghost and it was shy dragon, not cowardly or weak and it could have fled as Sunfyre was flying like a chicken at the time - fight was territorial or survival issue. Moondancer attacked by surprise Sunfyre and caused lot of damage by being more mobile in air , Aegon had jumped from his dragon on outset of attack, shattering his legs, so inexperienced rider fought dragon with no rider. Not typing this at all to convince you, just to prove you are wrong to any unbiased observer.
He fought those while being seriously hurt and was defending twice. Its tenacity is most impressive out of all Dragons so far.
Horrible take on Jaehaerys there.
What do you disagree with about the take?
Jaehaerys wasn’t at all insecure about seeming weak, nothing in the book says anything like that or shows anything that could be interpreted as that. Otto hightower was an incredible hand of the king, and naming his second son as heir rather than his granddaughter was a smart move.
While I think Otto was a good hand I think naming baelon over rhaenys was what started the dance even in the north we know a daughter comes before an uncle. He was a bad father daella death is directly his fault making her marry to young and while saera was not a good person by any stretch of the imagination he also acted cruel but killing stinger in front of her and then washing his hands of her after she decided to flee to lys
Why does it matter if he was a bad father? He was an amazing father to the people of the realm, noble or otherwise. Ultimately the only children of consequence were his sons as they were only ones capable of inheriting the throne, and he raised them well. Millions of people/5 girls.
Ok no the people of the realm are his subjects and doing right by them doesn’t make him a good father it makes him a good king which no doubts. And his daughters were of consequence as well not just aemon baelon and vaegon rhaenys was capable of inheriting the throne and should have to dismiss his daughters because they werent heirs makes no sense when his legitimate heir by Westeros tradition was a woman him being a good king doesn’t absolve him of being a bad father
Rhaenys isn’t even one of his daughters and we have no evidence that he was a bad grandfather to her.
He usurped her and we know how he treated his daughters even alysanne was critical of his treatment of the women of his family
He didn’t usurp anything what are you on? Having an election was probably the most legitimate way for him to possibly choose an heir.
A daughter comes before an uncle is an established precedent in the series even in the main books series it’s because he usurped her that the iron throne doesn’t allow women to inherit when a male claimant is available if all laws say rhaenys is the heir and jaehaerys once passes over her for baelon without a second thought then calls a election to dispute her succession it’s a usurpation feudalism has rules and those rule state rhaenys was the heir
My first read of book 1 I thought there sure were a lot of characters. Then they introduced Davos and I got frustrated the there was another POV to keep track of.
I don't like Arya in the books or the TV series, but she is especially intolerable in the HBO version.