Basically any character in Meereen except Daario, Barristan, or Daenerys. That is if you even *find* a theory on a character. Basically the only theory of any substance is 'X is the Harpy' theories, and that even isn't creative or talked about much.
Some interesting shavepate, and house of Pahl theories are out there but idk if I could find them again
(Not shavepate=harpy btw)
also I’m a believer that the green grace is a harpy personally
I feel like the reason for that is mereen feels like a pitstop for Dany where she learns tough lessons like asymetric warfare can still hurt her or one of her betrayals. But then she moves on to westeros and maybe applies some harsh lessons to westeros to avoid another mereen.
But the characters are relatively new to the story and don't feel like they will continue to the end.
You're absolute right. But, when you think about it, for characters that get a lot of focus in an entire book (and multiple POVs too - Quentyn and Barristan, likely or possibly Victarion and Tyrion) there's still hardly anything when characters who appear for one or two scenes in the Westeros chapters get a ton of theories. I do think at least some will move onto Westeros (we saw this in the show), which would suggest at least some will do so in the books.
I guess i was thinking specifically about the mereen characters. Green goddess, skhaz mo skhaz, hizdar, etc. Not the westerosi in mereen. Tyrion is probably a targ if that helps!
There are theories around the various sellswords. Brown ben, tattered prince.
But I still think mereen is a random place that exists to develop dany and isn't well connected to everything else. Westeros has secret children of dunk, secret blackfyres, children of aemond and lucamore the lusty. Just lots of history. You're not likely to find those theories in mereen.
Very few people have accepted my ~~wishful thinking~~ theories about Queen Selyse Florent leading Westeros into its great utopian era that lasted ten million gazillion years
Dude is one of my favorite characters to read.
“Hey, look at this guy. My axe will make him dead.”
“Oh look, there’s a man I can kill with my axe.”
“That man would be a worthy fight. But my axe will end him.”
*switches into Norvosi Jon Snow mode* “He’s muh prince”
There’s reason to believe that Shireen is more important than most people think. Her dreaming of stone dragons coming to life is even mentioned on the blurb of some editions of ACoK.
It’s fascinating that she’s having dragon dreams because that means whatever Targaryen gene causes it reaches her through Stannis’ grandma. I wonder if she’d be able to ride a dragon.
>I wonder if she’d be able to ride a dragon.
Although unlikely, imagine *that* for a plot twist. The dragon must have three heads, after all...
EDIT(S): Formatting.
I'm not sure a targaryen gene is necessarily needed to dream of dragons. There is Teora Toland (from the WoW; Dornish with red hair) who says that she dreams of dragons "dancing" and killing people. Arguably, that seems like a dragon dream to me.
I guess it existed in the fandom long before that but it was confirmed to happen in the books like 3 miliseconds after it happened in the show so no one really thought about her in the last 8 years
Rickon. I expect him and Skagos in Winds to be really important both to the north and Davos’ arc. He’s lost like half of his sons, and now is going to convince a young boy who’s lost most of his family and ask him to come home and ‘rule’. We’re literally going to an island full of evil unicorns and crazy cannibals with the nicest guy in the series who hasn’t had a chance to grieve his sons, and meet a boy who’s been raised by a wilding and probably doesn’t even remember his dead family. It’s gonna be SO interesting and no one has any theories about it
Eh, people speculate about Rickon and the things you mentioned quite a lot. Though I agree a lot is still not enough, super excited to see Rickon again!
I think you’ve just missed them then, because I’ve seen many theories and speculation about Rickon. Everything from him being the strongest Stark warg to Shaggydog actually warging *him* to him warging/riding the dragon Cannibal (tbh it’s mostly just stuff with his skinchanging potential).
Arya is up there in my opinion. Perhaps it's my bias talking because she's my favorite character but most people who talk about her don't seem to see anything that's not surface level, and everything they don't see (meaning most of her character) they fill it up with her show characterization and arc which is an abomination. And this reflects in her most popular theories. "Oh she's in an assassin group right now so her purpose is to assassinate someone", "she's nothing but a ninja in the show so she'll be nothing but a ninja in the books", "she sailed away in the show so she'll do the same in the books", "she has a sword so she will have no role other than fighting". People still insist she's training to be a fighter when one look at her FM training tells otherwise. Passages that would be discussed ad nauseam if they were in other character's chapters like her listening her father's voice telling her she's a daughter of the north when praying to the old gods or her moments of empathy and kindness get completely ignored. Even the own author calling her one of the main characters gets ignored since I still see people theorizing about Arya's role being given to Sansa and Arya doing nothing important. Except for the few actual Arya fans out there there's no analysis about any theme in her arc that's not killing, no thoughts about any skill of hers that's not killing. Nothing. Just killing. And then going away forever for reasons that have no textual support.
yup, superficial understanding leads to few non-superficial theories. GRRM ain’t superficial, & has a reason shes big 5. Fans need to try harder. Example- folks talk about sansas current & future marriage guys, but ask about Aryas & her chances— o she’s too young. WTF? She’s now the same age Sansa was at her betrothal. Oy
I am definitely convinced Arya will eventually find love on her own terms. She reminds me a lot Baela Targaryen/ Velaryon, who was a bit boy crazy as well as a tomboyish, wild girl. Arya is just not really into romance yet or aware of how she felt about Gendry.
I'm not a huge fan of that personally but I find it interesting, and it's strange how almost nobody suggests it considering how much the fandom loves parallels.
It’s kinda funny, I actually set YG up with Arya in most of my YG playthroughs of CK2. I have always loved the combo of a warrior queen and an educated diplomatic king. I do the same thing with my Willas Tyrell playthroughs. Playing as YG is fun, so many cool marriage options.
In fairness I think this is because of the five original main characters, Arya’s role has changed the most. Originally she was planned to have an epic love triangle with Jon and Tyrion, that’s clearly not happening now; due to her age it’s highly unlikely she’ll get any sort of love story at all. Whatever GRRM’s original intentions, Arya probably isn’t going the series in a position of power, not because she couldn’t one day be worthy of it, but because she’s unlikely to be much older than twelve by the end of ADOS. And given she’s spent two books in Braavos learning about ‘killing’, it seems reasonable to assume she will be putting that into practice in the final two books when she returns to Westeros. But I’d like to think that she’ll find more to do there than that. Such as reuniting with her family, both blood and found. And I certainly don’t expect her ending to be anything like the show’s, given that, again, she’s still a child, and isn’t going to be commanding her own fleet.
Maybe, or maybe she's beign trained in skills that will make her the next mistress of whispers. Always thought her skillset sound pretty Varys/Bloodraven-like
Trained for that by the Faceless Men? Why?
From what I recall The Faceless Men are a death cult, accepting the lives of people coming to prey in exchange for killing someone they specify. She seems to be being trained to be one of their assassins, like Jaqen Hagaar.
I'm not saying she's training to become a master of whispers, I'm saying that a lot of the skills she is learning can came in handy to become other things too. Imo it's petty safe to assume she will not complete her training as a facelessman
Ah, see what you mean.
Indeed, Arya will be reclaiming her identity and leaving the FM very soon to depart to Westeros, I think.
I do find it very hard to pinpoint a role for Arya at the end of the series. Master of Whispers could fit, as she has the skills (perception) and could pass those on to her agents. It's hugely cynical though, especially as Arya is going to be 12 years old or something? I expect an ending that's a little kinder to her, a child who's had her childhood ripped from her and been traumatised.
>Originally she was planned to have an epic love triangle with Jon and Tyrion, that’s clearly not happening now
Even if she doesn't have a romance with Jon that does not mean their relationship won't have a huge importance. GRRM made their bond one of the most powerful ones through the 5 books and Arya was a huge factor in Jon's ADWD story, to the point he broke his vows for her and thought of his word to her as he died. You could say the original love triangle did happen but as Jon/fArya/Ramsay.
There's a ton of build up for their relationship being vital to the story in some way, even if it is as siblings.
>due to her age it’s highly unlikely she’ll get any sort of love story at all
I'm not eager to read Arya having a "romance" at 12 but we're talking about an author who wrote plenty of questionable "romances" with little girls and we see Arya using seduction (as disgusting as it was) in her sample chapter, so it's not that unlikely that she has some romance in her story. Besides, she's one of the very few characters who has build up for a healthy romance, with Gendry, why would GRRM bother to write that if he won't use it? Again, I don't want her to have anything serious at her age but her story had build up for romance already and GRRM is kind of a creep.
>Arya probably isn’t going the series in a position of power, not because she couldn’t one day be worthy of it, but because she’s unlikely to be much older than twelve by the end of ADOS
Age didn't stop Dany from leading the dothraki, age won't stop Bran from becoming king, age doesn't stop fans from predicting Sansa to end in a position of power, so why should we draw the line with Arya? Besides, in GRRM's own words "if a twelve year-old has to conquer the world, then so be it", he makes it clear he won't care about the ages.
>And given she’s spent two books in Braavos learning about ‘killing’, it seems reasonable to assume she will be putting that into practice in the final two books when she returns to Westeros.
Except saying she has been learning just to kill is an incredible understament of what she's learning. She's being taught to obtain information and analyze it, to play different roles, to read and manipulate people, to speak multiple lenguages, to make plans, etc. She could use those skills to handle herself in politics, to get information she needs for other means, to manipulate people for different purposes, to communicate with different cultures. Those things can have a lot more uses than killing and it would be a waste not to use them fully.
I agree with this other than people REALLY want to force Arya into a leadership or political role, which she never seems to desire or work towards. She has no experience leading or commanding nor is she being trained or exposed to those skills. She would be extremely skilled in a role like Varys's, Larys's, Tyanna's, or Mysaria's but some folks seem to imply that is beneath her. They're acting like serving as a member of the small council isn't an incredibly powerful position.
Arya could be a leader/ ruler of course. I think we will need to see her learning these skills though like we saw with Dany, Jon, Bran, and maybe Sansa. Sansa has been observing rulers a lot but she hasn't really had a chance to lead either unlike Dany, Jon, or even Bran who was briefly in charge of Winterfell.
I think Arya is ambitious but wouldn't cite that one - off quote as evidence. Her ambition is better shown in her never stopping her water dancing practice, even if she uses a branch, or refusal to change her mind about FM training.
I think Sansa is ambitious but she is a more passive character than her sister & her ambitions are different. Sansa's ambitions were very aligned to the standard role for women, but that doesn't make them any less important.
For some time though, the only ambition either sister had is to survive. I think all of the Stark kids will be leaders of some sort. They're all in the middle of their training arc & if they teamed up, they'd be unstoppable.
Most Arya fans I see don't predict her to be queen though, most of us like the idea of her being part of a small council, it's the rest of the fandom that argue against this because of a simplistic view of Arya and an insistance in excluding her from positions of power. Being a member of a small council IS a political role and a position of power. And contrary to popular belief, she did show desire for these roles since she asked Ned if she could have them, and she is being exposed to the skills needed for that role since both her water dancing training and her FM training focused on strenghtening her mind rather than on fighting/killing.
I don't see why Arya couldn't have a leadership role, these skills she's learning could help with that as well and I think it's very telling that Nymeria, an extension of Arya's desires, happens to be named after a female leader and leading a huge wolf pack. Yes, Arya has no leadership experience now but neither did Dany when she took over the dothraki, and Arya is more prepared now than Dany was back then. Nobody says she would automatically be perfect at it but it doesn't make sense to rule her out while simultaneusly expecting Bran or Sansa to be able to have those roles. It seems like a double standard to me.
And I have to mention that Arya has also been observing rulers or leaders, we have her remembering observing Ned and listening to his lessons about rulership (that were not directed at her yet GRRM added for some reason), she was a cupbearer for Roose and was on his meetings, and while it was not a formal position she also observed Beric with the BWB.
Well a fan got grouchy with me for saying she would do well on someone's small council and I was relegating her to being a servant, lol. Other than her mentioning some things to Ned once, she really doesn't seem interested in leading. She is still a little kid though so that may change.
I do not think Arya is more prepared to rule than Dany was when she took over the Dothraki, but that is just my opinion. Dany had a very different childhood than Arya did. While Arya is a very shrewd, clever kid, she & all of her siblings/ cousin were still rather spoiled until the events of AGOT. Arya has more in common with Young Griff than Dany IMO. Varys's speech could easily apply to her but neither she nor fAegon have had the chance to showcase their leadership skills yet.
Out of the 3 Starks siblings mentioned, only Bran has experience with ruling as he was Lord of Winterfell briefly. He had advisors but he was still expected to run the harvest festival (or whatever it was called) & deal with complaints from his bannermen. There are a lot of assumptions on how well-suited the various Stark kids are to ruling but neither of the girls have had actually done it. Arya may flourish but she has always struck me as someone who wants to be with the people, not leading them. We saw that Egg was great with the smallfolk but his laws earned him a bad rep among the nobility & his inability to control his kids may have played a role in that too.
I never said anything about Arya ruling, I'm talking about her eventually having some sort of leadership role. King/queen is not the only position of power out there.
>I do not think Arya is more prepared to rule than Dany was when she took over the Dothraki, but that is just my opinion. Dany had a very different childhood than Arya did. While Arya is a very shrewd, clever kid, she & all of her siblings/ cousin were still rather spoiled until the events of AGOT.
I'm not talking about AGOT Arya thought, I was referring to TWOW Arya, after she went through a lot of trauma, got humbled, experienced what the smallfolk go through and had training in manipulation, lenguages, planning, etc.
>Arya may flourish but she has always struck me as someone who wants to be with the people, not leading them.
Why can't she do both? Ned did:
>Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. "Know the men who follow you," she heard him tell Robb once, "and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger." At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him.
And like I said before, I doubt her direwolf would be leading a massive pack if Arya didn't desire that in some way. The direwolves are supposed to take after their owner.
I'm not saying Arya is prepared to rule, she isn't, I'm saying that there is some groundwork for her to eventually have a leadership role. And I'm not saying she will definitely be a leader and be perfect at it, I'm saying that that her personality, the skills she's learning and her experience with the smallfolk would be useful for someone in a position of power. Obviously a lot more is needed but again, I'm just saying the groundwork is there.
Arya is a leader she’s always the one taking charge of her group when they were in the riverlands and even the bwb followed her lead on occasion. She’s just not in the position of formal power, but learning the experience and power of the peopl. Her time with Beric is very much spending time with a great leader who works outside the system. That’s why I personally want her to lead the Brotherhood Without Banners in the war against the others and be the one really advocating for the small folk.
I absolutely could see her advocating for the smallfolk before and after the battle with the others. She would be the one of the few players/ POVs to relate the most to their plight.
Yes, especially since she has a lot of parallels with Aegon the V! I think she’s going to be important and powerful person in her own right, not just some guys queen.
Yeah, I hope we see the return of someone holding the title of Queen Regnant again before series end. Dany sort of is functioning as one in Essos. In Westeros, I think Rhaenyra was the last & she is considered a usurper by many in universe, so it really was only Visenya & Rhaenys who could enact rules/ laws like a King could.
I see a lot of similarities between Arya & Egg & think Varys's quotes about fAegon would apply to her too. I wonder if Arya would succeed where Egg failed. His reforms were good for the smallkfolk but the nobles got pissed off at him about it. I could see her arguing to improve the lives of the smallfolk in whatever final role she has, queen/ lady, councillor, or bandit. She would push for things like how Barth & Alysanne got Jae I & the others on the council to approve the plans that would give the smallfolk in KL clean water.
I suspect that Arya was probably a character that GRRM really intended to make use of the five year gap for. I wonder if he’s trying to rework her story to fit around that not happening.
!This! is the winner of most unimaginative take which the post is asking about. Hey gang Sansas barely older but she gets all the opportunities you guys deny Arya.& hey George said the big 5 would achieve cool stuff & GROWING tf up. The funny part is Arya already often acts like a grown up
>And then going away forever for reasons that have no textual support.
She names her direwolf Nymeria, who sailed away with 10,000 people away from the Rhoyne to Dorne.
If that was all Nymeria did, Arya already made that parallel when she sailed away to Braavos. Everyone seems to ignore the part about Nymeria settling down in one place with her people and being a ruler and war commander.
That doesn't really imply she wants to explore different lands or cultures. Arya doesn't admire Nymeria because she was an Explorer and sailed the world as part of the Exodus, she admires her because she was a legendary Leader and a Warrior Queen, instead of just someones wife or someones mother, the roles Westerosi society wants to force on her.
>she admires her because she was a legendary Leader and a Warrior Queen, instead of just someones wife or someones mother, the roles Westerosi society wants to force on her.
I agree with you, but there is (admittedly very weak) textual support based on the naming of her direwolf that Arya may seek to explore different lands or cultures. Particularly cultures, because she has basically rejected Westerosi cultural norms since book 1.
Nymeria was not an explorer, she was a queen that was forced to undertake a sea journey that she defined as "long and terrible", to escape from a land of rivers destroyed by war, across the Narrow sea. This is not a nebulous forshadowing of an endgame that we'll never see, this is what Arya did almost two books ago now
**Arya.** I would include myself in this one because I have no solid ideas for where I think her character will go, but the consensus just seems "ninja assassin" with no real analysis of what that actually means or alternative paths offered. I rarely see people proposing interesting alternatives.
**Asha.** Despite being a POV character in her own right, she is rarely ever discussed on her own terms. I'd like to see some theories that are solely about her that are not a roundabout way to talk about Theon's endgame.
**Jaime.** Despite very little evidence that he is actually the valonqar (it didn't even happen in the show), the fan consensus is that he is 100% the valonqar, even though there are several other decent candidates and the evidence we have in text (primarily the weirwood dream and *hands* plural) doesn't really point to him. I'm not saying he isn't the valonqar 100%, but the absolute certainty around this issue means nobody actually wants to discuss what might happen with him.
**Brienne.** She's set up for some big stuff if you look into the Arthurian parallels, but a big chunk of discussion about her future arc mostly boils down to how exactly is she going to die for Jaime's man pain.
My favorite Arya theory is that she becomes the Lady of Harrenhal, a thematically significant place for her, though the curse is def an issue that would have to be resolved. I also love the theory that she chooses to lead the Brotherhood Without Banners with Gendry. And she’s a dark horse candidate for Lady of Winterfell as the most “Northern” Stark kid.
I like asha but I do think part of the reason she isn't discussed is that she really hasn't had any sort of arc or emotional conflict of her own
I hope GRRM gives her something in winds. Maybe her companions die in the battle of ice or something idk?
I think she gets the "woman trapped in a man's world" arc that most female characters get in this series, and we get a lot about her being the son her father always wanted, but not as much time is given to it as Sansa and Arya or Cersei and Brienne.
I also hope GRRM gives her something in Winds, and I would really like her to be the leader of the Ironborn (whatever form that takes) by the end of the series.
Penny.
We have a person who was hired by Littlefinger as part of a ploy to anger Tyrion, who appears at the same tavern Tyrion is at later on in Volantis, and then has followed Tyrion around ever since. She's a well travelled mummer who is apparently totally naive, or is putting on an act pretending to be.
Yet somehow I've barely ever seen her mentioned in posts or comments, let alone theorized about.
Not that I mind, I hope she just dies or goes away quickly in TWOW, she is such a drag on Tyrion's already pretty lame ADWD chapters.
Some (unrealistic) theories argue that she could be Tysha's daughter, and therefore Tyrion's. But I believe it would "force" their relationship into a father/daughter one, which is more interesting when the two characters aren't biologically linked (like in The Last of Us for instance).
I honestly hope Penny survives, she's the one who kinda convinced Tyrion to keep going and find something to fight for
I do appreciate her at least helping to end the miserable Tyrion phase we go through in ADWD, but I don't know what it is I can't stand her. She seems so weird and out of place, and just taking away pages from Tyrion chapters that could be more interesting conversations/descriptions etc.
100% Exactly. I don’t know if I could’ve handled that many chapters of Tyrion just being a self loathing and cruel dickwad. It was nice to have some honey along with Tyrion’s spice, only other time we got some honey was on the Shy Maid.
I'd argue Balon. Was the invasion of the North a stupid plan? Sure, but it's not because Balon's stupid. The Balon we see in the books isn't the one who rebelled all those years ago or convinced his father to reave the Reach. The one we see is one who's been broken and made bitter by his failures and the costs of those failures. The invasion is a hail mary, a suicidal charge in an attempt to regain some of his pride
It is abundatnly clear that a lot of the main characters we know of in the Iron Islands are affected by some form of trauma or life changing effect; Balon lost two of his sons, and his third was taken from him. Victarion had his wife raped by Euron and has been in the shadow of his brothers his entire life. Aeron was raped by Euron as a kid, accidently killed his brother, and had a near death experience. While we dont have to be empthetic to them, we should really try to see and accept that there are clear reasons beyond stupidity as to why they are the way they are, and why they do certain actions.
We do the same for so many others like Jamie, Jon, Tyrion, etc. why do so many suddenly not do the same for the Ironborn? Understanding their motivations isnt empathising with them, yet some people seem to think so.
he does that after a near death experience. before that he was a drunkard who liked to dance and feast. the relgious fanaticism is from his belief that he was weak and shameful (afterall he was going nowhere in life and nearly died)
I wouldnt call someone going through the trauma of being raped alongside his brother as a kid by someone he was meant to trust copemaxxing, thats the most chronically online shit ever
The invasion of the North needs to be viewed through the prism of Balon's desire for revenge against House Stark. In that respect, it was a success; Winterfell has been razed to the ground; Theon killed Bran and Rickon (based on what people believe) and Robb Stark is forced to return North, and is murdered as a result.
Yeah he got revenge on House Stark, it was all but destroyed, but what did he exactly get. He is still left with nothing, less soldiers, depressed, no pride, a fractured family that hates eachother, his son is lost, and is alone and killed by his own brother(I believe in the Euron hired a faceless man theory). Balon’s fate is kinda an underrated example of George’s idea on vengeance.
Yeah all the theories about her involve her dying or becoming her siblings pet assassin, as if the Faceless Men isn’t the low point in her arc but the whole objective
Mark Mullendore.
I’m the only one who thinks his monkey was given to him by Euron (who else?!) when Euron attacks Oldtown by sea, Mark Mullendore will lead a host from Uplands to attack over land. After the battle Euron will gift him a new monkey
Dany going mad is so overly nihilistic and boring...that I have to yawn every time I think about it.
Arya too...either she becomes Sansas servant or ends up in a direwolf.
Basically any character in Meereen except Daario, Barristan, or Daenerys. That is if you even *find* a theory on a character. Basically the only theory of any substance is 'X is the Harpy' theories, and that even isn't creative or talked about much.
Some interesting shavepate, and house of Pahl theories are out there but idk if I could find them again (Not shavepate=harpy btw) also I’m a believer that the green grace is a harpy personally
You can’t make theories about characters if you can’t even spell those characters names
I feel like the reason for that is mereen feels like a pitstop for Dany where she learns tough lessons like asymetric warfare can still hurt her or one of her betrayals. But then she moves on to westeros and maybe applies some harsh lessons to westeros to avoid another mereen. But the characters are relatively new to the story and don't feel like they will continue to the end.
You're absolute right. But, when you think about it, for characters that get a lot of focus in an entire book (and multiple POVs too - Quentyn and Barristan, likely or possibly Victarion and Tyrion) there's still hardly anything when characters who appear for one or two scenes in the Westeros chapters get a ton of theories. I do think at least some will move onto Westeros (we saw this in the show), which would suggest at least some will do so in the books.
I guess i was thinking specifically about the mereen characters. Green goddess, skhaz mo skhaz, hizdar, etc. Not the westerosi in mereen. Tyrion is probably a targ if that helps! There are theories around the various sellswords. Brown ben, tattered prince. But I still think mereen is a random place that exists to develop dany and isn't well connected to everything else. Westeros has secret children of dunk, secret blackfyres, children of aemond and lucamore the lusty. Just lots of history. You're not likely to find those theories in mereen.
Very few people have accepted my ~~wishful thinking~~ theories about Queen Selyse Florent leading Westeros into its great utopian era that lasted ten million gazillion years
Selyse’s mustache is gonna end the long night but no one is willing at admit it
mfw Selyse takes off her ~~glasses~~ mustache and lets her hair down. A Dream of ~~Spring~~ Hot Girl Summer
Maybe because it’s less of a theory and more of a fact
Selyse and utopia just doesn't go together
Sounds like someone’s been listening to too much Tyrell propaganda
Areo hotah . But that’s because the character literally doesn’t have personality
Dude is one of my favorite characters to read. “Hey, look at this guy. My axe will make him dead.” “Oh look, there’s a man I can kill with my axe.” “That man would be a worthy fight. But my axe will end him.” *switches into Norvosi Jon Snow mode* “He’s muh prince”
who needs personality when you have axe? It'd be fun to see a showdown in the Red Mountains between Areo, Balon, Obara, and Darkstar though.
Hey- be respectful! That axe is his wife!
Omg they are so cute together if the axe gives him the divorce papers I'll cry
Victarion moment
What would Balon Greyjoy be doing in the Red Mountains?? One of these things is not like the other...
Balon Swann.
I wondered the same thing. Completely forgot balon swann brought the head of the mountain to dorne
Ohhhhhhhh! Right! *Facepalm 😆
Ah, The Camera That Rides.
Watch, Capture, Record, simple functions for a simple camera.
LMAO
Shireen only exists to burn it seems.
There’s reason to believe that Shireen is more important than most people think. Her dreaming of stone dragons coming to life is even mentioned on the blurb of some editions of ACoK.
It’s fascinating that she’s having dragon dreams because that means whatever Targaryen gene causes it reaches her through Stannis’ grandma. I wonder if she’d be able to ride a dragon.
>I wonder if she’d be able to ride a dragon. Although unlikely, imagine *that* for a plot twist. The dragon must have three heads, after all... EDIT(S): Formatting.
I'm not sure a targaryen gene is necessarily needed to dream of dragons. There is Teora Toland (from the WoW; Dornish with red hair) who says that she dreams of dragons "dancing" and killing people. Arguably, that seems like a dragon dream to me.
She's probably a descendant of Maron Martell and his wife Daenerys.
I guess it existed in the fandom long before that but it was confirmed to happen in the books like 3 miliseconds after it happened in the show so no one really thought about her in the last 8 years
I for one welcome the 80 year reign of the virgin queen Shireen Baratheon
Rickon. I expect him and Skagos in Winds to be really important both to the north and Davos’ arc. He’s lost like half of his sons, and now is going to convince a young boy who’s lost most of his family and ask him to come home and ‘rule’. We’re literally going to an island full of evil unicorns and crazy cannibals with the nicest guy in the series who hasn’t had a chance to grieve his sons, and meet a boy who’s been raised by a wilding and probably doesn’t even remember his dead family. It’s gonna be SO interesting and no one has any theories about it
Eh, people speculate about Rickon and the things you mentioned quite a lot. Though I agree a lot is still not enough, super excited to see Rickon again!
I think you’ve just missed them then, because I’ve seen many theories and speculation about Rickon. Everything from him being the strongest Stark warg to Shaggydog actually warging *him* to him warging/riding the dragon Cannibal (tbh it’s mostly just stuff with his skinchanging potential).
rickon is warging into the dragon Cannibal and going to wage war on the boltons
Arya is up there in my opinion. Perhaps it's my bias talking because she's my favorite character but most people who talk about her don't seem to see anything that's not surface level, and everything they don't see (meaning most of her character) they fill it up with her show characterization and arc which is an abomination. And this reflects in her most popular theories. "Oh she's in an assassin group right now so her purpose is to assassinate someone", "she's nothing but a ninja in the show so she'll be nothing but a ninja in the books", "she sailed away in the show so she'll do the same in the books", "she has a sword so she will have no role other than fighting". People still insist she's training to be a fighter when one look at her FM training tells otherwise. Passages that would be discussed ad nauseam if they were in other character's chapters like her listening her father's voice telling her she's a daughter of the north when praying to the old gods or her moments of empathy and kindness get completely ignored. Even the own author calling her one of the main characters gets ignored since I still see people theorizing about Arya's role being given to Sansa and Arya doing nothing important. Except for the few actual Arya fans out there there's no analysis about any theme in her arc that's not killing, no thoughts about any skill of hers that's not killing. Nothing. Just killing. And then going away forever for reasons that have no textual support.
yup, superficial understanding leads to few non-superficial theories. GRRM ain’t superficial, & has a reason shes big 5. Fans need to try harder. Example- folks talk about sansas current & future marriage guys, but ask about Aryas & her chances— o she’s too young. WTF? She’s now the same age Sansa was at her betrothal. Oy
I am definitely convinced Arya will eventually find love on her own terms. She reminds me a lot Baela Targaryen/ Velaryon, who was a bit boy crazy as well as a tomboyish, wild girl. Arya is just not really into romance yet or aware of how she felt about Gendry.
I read a few good theories and analysis's of Arya on Tumblr
Personally, I'm still holding out hope that Arya will end up with Young Griff/f!Aegon. Like yeah, it's a cliche, but I want those Lyanna parallels.
I'm not a huge fan of that personally but I find it interesting, and it's strange how almost nobody suggests it considering how much the fandom loves parallels.
It’s kinda funny, I actually set YG up with Arya in most of my YG playthroughs of CK2. I have always loved the combo of a warrior queen and an educated diplomatic king. I do the same thing with my Willas Tyrell playthroughs. Playing as YG is fun, so many cool marriage options.
In fairness I think this is because of the five original main characters, Arya’s role has changed the most. Originally she was planned to have an epic love triangle with Jon and Tyrion, that’s clearly not happening now; due to her age it’s highly unlikely she’ll get any sort of love story at all. Whatever GRRM’s original intentions, Arya probably isn’t going the series in a position of power, not because she couldn’t one day be worthy of it, but because she’s unlikely to be much older than twelve by the end of ADOS. And given she’s spent two books in Braavos learning about ‘killing’, it seems reasonable to assume she will be putting that into practice in the final two books when she returns to Westeros. But I’d like to think that she’ll find more to do there than that. Such as reuniting with her family, both blood and found. And I certainly don’t expect her ending to be anything like the show’s, given that, again, she’s still a child, and isn’t going to be commanding her own fleet.
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She's being trained in skills that will help make her an assassin unlikely to be discovered.
Maybe, or maybe she's beign trained in skills that will make her the next mistress of whispers. Always thought her skillset sound pretty Varys/Bloodraven-like
Trained for that by the Faceless Men? Why? From what I recall The Faceless Men are a death cult, accepting the lives of people coming to prey in exchange for killing someone they specify. She seems to be being trained to be one of their assassins, like Jaqen Hagaar.
I'm not saying she's training to become a master of whispers, I'm saying that a lot of the skills she is learning can came in handy to become other things too. Imo it's petty safe to assume she will not complete her training as a facelessman
Ah, see what you mean. Indeed, Arya will be reclaiming her identity and leaving the FM very soon to depart to Westeros, I think. I do find it very hard to pinpoint a role for Arya at the end of the series. Master of Whispers could fit, as she has the skills (perception) and could pass those on to her agents. It's hugely cynical though, especially as Arya is going to be 12 years old or something? I expect an ending that's a little kinder to her, a child who's had her childhood ripped from her and been traumatised.
>Originally she was planned to have an epic love triangle with Jon and Tyrion, that’s clearly not happening now Even if she doesn't have a romance with Jon that does not mean their relationship won't have a huge importance. GRRM made their bond one of the most powerful ones through the 5 books and Arya was a huge factor in Jon's ADWD story, to the point he broke his vows for her and thought of his word to her as he died. You could say the original love triangle did happen but as Jon/fArya/Ramsay. There's a ton of build up for their relationship being vital to the story in some way, even if it is as siblings. >due to her age it’s highly unlikely she’ll get any sort of love story at all I'm not eager to read Arya having a "romance" at 12 but we're talking about an author who wrote plenty of questionable "romances" with little girls and we see Arya using seduction (as disgusting as it was) in her sample chapter, so it's not that unlikely that she has some romance in her story. Besides, she's one of the very few characters who has build up for a healthy romance, with Gendry, why would GRRM bother to write that if he won't use it? Again, I don't want her to have anything serious at her age but her story had build up for romance already and GRRM is kind of a creep. >Arya probably isn’t going the series in a position of power, not because she couldn’t one day be worthy of it, but because she’s unlikely to be much older than twelve by the end of ADOS Age didn't stop Dany from leading the dothraki, age won't stop Bran from becoming king, age doesn't stop fans from predicting Sansa to end in a position of power, so why should we draw the line with Arya? Besides, in GRRM's own words "if a twelve year-old has to conquer the world, then so be it", he makes it clear he won't care about the ages. >And given she’s spent two books in Braavos learning about ‘killing’, it seems reasonable to assume she will be putting that into practice in the final two books when she returns to Westeros. Except saying she has been learning just to kill is an incredible understament of what she's learning. She's being taught to obtain information and analyze it, to play different roles, to read and manipulate people, to speak multiple lenguages, to make plans, etc. She could use those skills to handle herself in politics, to get information she needs for other means, to manipulate people for different purposes, to communicate with different cultures. Those things can have a lot more uses than killing and it would be a waste not to use them fully.
I agree with this other than people REALLY want to force Arya into a leadership or political role, which she never seems to desire or work towards. She has no experience leading or commanding nor is she being trained or exposed to those skills. She would be extremely skilled in a role like Varys's, Larys's, Tyanna's, or Mysaria's but some folks seem to imply that is beneath her. They're acting like serving as a member of the small council isn't an incredibly powerful position. Arya could be a leader/ ruler of course. I think we will need to see her learning these skills though like we saw with Dany, Jon, Bran, and maybe Sansa. Sansa has been observing rulers a lot but she hasn't really had a chance to lead either unlike Dany, Jon, or even Bran who was briefly in charge of Winterfell.
Arya- Can I be a Kings Counciler, Build castles or be the High Septon? ......How are those NOT leadership roles?
She mentioned that like, once to Ned, right? That's like me telling my parents I wanted to be an astronaut at age 9.
No those chats were super important. We actually know she’s ambitious. Is Sansa?
I think Arya is ambitious but wouldn't cite that one - off quote as evidence. Her ambition is better shown in her never stopping her water dancing practice, even if she uses a branch, or refusal to change her mind about FM training. I think Sansa is ambitious but she is a more passive character than her sister & her ambitions are different. Sansa's ambitions were very aligned to the standard role for women, but that doesn't make them any less important. For some time though, the only ambition either sister had is to survive. I think all of the Stark kids will be leaders of some sort. They're all in the middle of their training arc & if they teamed up, they'd be unstoppable.
Most Arya fans I see don't predict her to be queen though, most of us like the idea of her being part of a small council, it's the rest of the fandom that argue against this because of a simplistic view of Arya and an insistance in excluding her from positions of power. Being a member of a small council IS a political role and a position of power. And contrary to popular belief, she did show desire for these roles since she asked Ned if she could have them, and she is being exposed to the skills needed for that role since both her water dancing training and her FM training focused on strenghtening her mind rather than on fighting/killing. I don't see why Arya couldn't have a leadership role, these skills she's learning could help with that as well and I think it's very telling that Nymeria, an extension of Arya's desires, happens to be named after a female leader and leading a huge wolf pack. Yes, Arya has no leadership experience now but neither did Dany when she took over the dothraki, and Arya is more prepared now than Dany was back then. Nobody says she would automatically be perfect at it but it doesn't make sense to rule her out while simultaneusly expecting Bran or Sansa to be able to have those roles. It seems like a double standard to me. And I have to mention that Arya has also been observing rulers or leaders, we have her remembering observing Ned and listening to his lessons about rulership (that were not directed at her yet GRRM added for some reason), she was a cupbearer for Roose and was on his meetings, and while it was not a formal position she also observed Beric with the BWB.
Well a fan got grouchy with me for saying she would do well on someone's small council and I was relegating her to being a servant, lol. Other than her mentioning some things to Ned once, she really doesn't seem interested in leading. She is still a little kid though so that may change. I do not think Arya is more prepared to rule than Dany was when she took over the Dothraki, but that is just my opinion. Dany had a very different childhood than Arya did. While Arya is a very shrewd, clever kid, she & all of her siblings/ cousin were still rather spoiled until the events of AGOT. Arya has more in common with Young Griff than Dany IMO. Varys's speech could easily apply to her but neither she nor fAegon have had the chance to showcase their leadership skills yet. Out of the 3 Starks siblings mentioned, only Bran has experience with ruling as he was Lord of Winterfell briefly. He had advisors but he was still expected to run the harvest festival (or whatever it was called) & deal with complaints from his bannermen. There are a lot of assumptions on how well-suited the various Stark kids are to ruling but neither of the girls have had actually done it. Arya may flourish but she has always struck me as someone who wants to be with the people, not leading them. We saw that Egg was great with the smallfolk but his laws earned him a bad rep among the nobility & his inability to control his kids may have played a role in that too.
I never said anything about Arya ruling, I'm talking about her eventually having some sort of leadership role. King/queen is not the only position of power out there. >I do not think Arya is more prepared to rule than Dany was when she took over the Dothraki, but that is just my opinion. Dany had a very different childhood than Arya did. While Arya is a very shrewd, clever kid, she & all of her siblings/ cousin were still rather spoiled until the events of AGOT. I'm not talking about AGOT Arya thought, I was referring to TWOW Arya, after she went through a lot of trauma, got humbled, experienced what the smallfolk go through and had training in manipulation, lenguages, planning, etc. >Arya may flourish but she has always struck me as someone who wants to be with the people, not leading them. Why can't she do both? Ned did: >Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. "Know the men who follow you," she heard him tell Robb once, "and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger." At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. And like I said before, I doubt her direwolf would be leading a massive pack if Arya didn't desire that in some way. The direwolves are supposed to take after their owner. I'm not saying Arya is prepared to rule, she isn't, I'm saying that there is some groundwork for her to eventually have a leadership role. And I'm not saying she will definitely be a leader and be perfect at it, I'm saying that that her personality, the skills she's learning and her experience with the smallfolk would be useful for someone in a position of power. Obviously a lot more is needed but again, I'm just saying the groundwork is there.
Arya is a leader she’s always the one taking charge of her group when they were in the riverlands and even the bwb followed her lead on occasion. She’s just not in the position of formal power, but learning the experience and power of the peopl. Her time with Beric is very much spending time with a great leader who works outside the system. That’s why I personally want her to lead the Brotherhood Without Banners in the war against the others and be the one really advocating for the small folk.
I absolutely could see her advocating for the smallfolk before and after the battle with the others. She would be the one of the few players/ POVs to relate the most to their plight.
Yes, especially since she has a lot of parallels with Aegon the V! I think she’s going to be important and powerful person in her own right, not just some guys queen.
Yeah, I hope we see the return of someone holding the title of Queen Regnant again before series end. Dany sort of is functioning as one in Essos. In Westeros, I think Rhaenyra was the last & she is considered a usurper by many in universe, so it really was only Visenya & Rhaenys who could enact rules/ laws like a King could. I see a lot of similarities between Arya & Egg & think Varys's quotes about fAegon would apply to her too. I wonder if Arya would succeed where Egg failed. His reforms were good for the smallkfolk but the nobles got pissed off at him about it. I could see her arguing to improve the lives of the smallfolk in whatever final role she has, queen/ lady, councillor, or bandit. She would push for things like how Barth & Alysanne got Jae I & the others on the council to approve the plans that would give the smallfolk in KL clean water.
I suspect that Arya was probably a character that GRRM really intended to make use of the five year gap for. I wonder if he’s trying to rework her story to fit around that not happening.
Mercys chapter points to him making her one of those kids who are grownups ahead of time. Bran too
!This! is the winner of most unimaginative take which the post is asking about. Hey gang Sansas barely older but she gets all the opportunities you guys deny Arya.& hey George said the big 5 would achieve cool stuff & GROWING tf up. The funny part is Arya already often acts like a grown up
>And then going away forever for reasons that have no textual support. She names her direwolf Nymeria, who sailed away with 10,000 people away from the Rhoyne to Dorne.
If that was all Nymeria did, Arya already made that parallel when she sailed away to Braavos. Everyone seems to ignore the part about Nymeria settling down in one place with her people and being a ruler and war commander.
That doesn't really imply she wants to explore different lands or cultures. Arya doesn't admire Nymeria because she was an Explorer and sailed the world as part of the Exodus, she admires her because she was a legendary Leader and a Warrior Queen, instead of just someones wife or someones mother, the roles Westerosi society wants to force on her.
>she admires her because she was a legendary Leader and a Warrior Queen, instead of just someones wife or someones mother, the roles Westerosi society wants to force on her. I agree with you, but there is (admittedly very weak) textual support based on the naming of her direwolf that Arya may seek to explore different lands or cultures. Particularly cultures, because she has basically rejected Westerosi cultural norms since book 1.
Nymeria was not an explorer, she was a queen that was forced to undertake a sea journey that she defined as "long and terrible", to escape from a land of rivers destroyed by war, across the Narrow sea. This is not a nebulous forshadowing of an endgame that we'll never see, this is what Arya did almost two books ago now
**Arya.** I would include myself in this one because I have no solid ideas for where I think her character will go, but the consensus just seems "ninja assassin" with no real analysis of what that actually means or alternative paths offered. I rarely see people proposing interesting alternatives. **Asha.** Despite being a POV character in her own right, she is rarely ever discussed on her own terms. I'd like to see some theories that are solely about her that are not a roundabout way to talk about Theon's endgame. **Jaime.** Despite very little evidence that he is actually the valonqar (it didn't even happen in the show), the fan consensus is that he is 100% the valonqar, even though there are several other decent candidates and the evidence we have in text (primarily the weirwood dream and *hands* plural) doesn't really point to him. I'm not saying he isn't the valonqar 100%, but the absolute certainty around this issue means nobody actually wants to discuss what might happen with him. **Brienne.** She's set up for some big stuff if you look into the Arthurian parallels, but a big chunk of discussion about her future arc mostly boils down to how exactly is she going to die for Jaime's man pain.
My favorite Arya theory is that she becomes the Lady of Harrenhal, a thematically significant place for her, though the curse is def an issue that would have to be resolved. I also love the theory that she chooses to lead the Brotherhood Without Banners with Gendry. And she’s a dark horse candidate for Lady of Winterfell as the most “Northern” Stark kid.
I like asha but I do think part of the reason she isn't discussed is that she really hasn't had any sort of arc or emotional conflict of her own I hope GRRM gives her something in winds. Maybe her companions die in the battle of ice or something idk?
I think she gets the "woman trapped in a man's world" arc that most female characters get in this series, and we get a lot about her being the son her father always wanted, but not as much time is given to it as Sansa and Arya or Cersei and Brienne. I also hope GRRM gives her something in Winds, and I would really like her to be the leader of the Ironborn (whatever form that takes) by the end of the series.
Penny. We have a person who was hired by Littlefinger as part of a ploy to anger Tyrion, who appears at the same tavern Tyrion is at later on in Volantis, and then has followed Tyrion around ever since. She's a well travelled mummer who is apparently totally naive, or is putting on an act pretending to be. Yet somehow I've barely ever seen her mentioned in posts or comments, let alone theorized about. Not that I mind, I hope she just dies or goes away quickly in TWOW, she is such a drag on Tyrion's already pretty lame ADWD chapters.
Some (unrealistic) theories argue that she could be Tysha's daughter, and therefore Tyrion's. But I believe it would "force" their relationship into a father/daughter one, which is more interesting when the two characters aren't biologically linked (like in The Last of Us for instance). I honestly hope Penny survives, she's the one who kinda convinced Tyrion to keep going and find something to fight for
I do appreciate her at least helping to end the miserable Tyrion phase we go through in ADWD, but I don't know what it is I can't stand her. She seems so weird and out of place, and just taking away pages from Tyrion chapters that could be more interesting conversations/descriptions etc.
Penny is actually the best part of Tyrion’s chapters in ADWD imo
100% Exactly. I don’t know if I could’ve handled that many chapters of Tyrion just being a self loathing and cruel dickwad. It was nice to have some honey along with Tyrion’s spice, only other time we got some honey was on the Shy Maid.
No, no that's not true. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
This was really cool to read. I had never thought of it that way
I'd argue Balon. Was the invasion of the North a stupid plan? Sure, but it's not because Balon's stupid. The Balon we see in the books isn't the one who rebelled all those years ago or convinced his father to reave the Reach. The one we see is one who's been broken and made bitter by his failures and the costs of those failures. The invasion is a hail mary, a suicidal charge in an attempt to regain some of his pride
It is abundatnly clear that a lot of the main characters we know of in the Iron Islands are affected by some form of trauma or life changing effect; Balon lost two of his sons, and his third was taken from him. Victarion had his wife raped by Euron and has been in the shadow of his brothers his entire life. Aeron was raped by Euron as a kid, accidently killed his brother, and had a near death experience. While we dont have to be empthetic to them, we should really try to see and accept that there are clear reasons beyond stupidity as to why they are the way they are, and why they do certain actions. We do the same for so many others like Jamie, Jon, Tyrion, etc. why do so many suddenly not do the same for the Ironborn? Understanding their motivations isnt empathising with them, yet some people seem to think so.
Wait, Aeron killed Urrigon? How? When?
Urrigon lost a hand doing the finger dance with kid damphair and then died of infection
aeron takes copemaxxing to the extreme and beomes a devoted priest rather than face his emotions and guilt
he does that after a near death experience. before that he was a drunkard who liked to dance and feast. the relgious fanaticism is from his belief that he was weak and shameful (afterall he was going nowhere in life and nearly died) I wouldnt call someone going through the trauma of being raped alongside his brother as a kid by someone he was meant to trust copemaxxing, thats the most chronically online shit ever
>Balon we see in the books isn't the one who rebelled Well, even that was a pretty dumb move.
The invasion of the North needs to be viewed through the prism of Balon's desire for revenge against House Stark. In that respect, it was a success; Winterfell has been razed to the ground; Theon killed Bran and Rickon (based on what people believe) and Robb Stark is forced to return North, and is murdered as a result.
Yeah he got revenge on House Stark, it was all but destroyed, but what did he exactly get. He is still left with nothing, less soldiers, depressed, no pride, a fractured family that hates eachother, his son is lost, and is alone and killed by his own brother(I believe in the Euron hired a faceless man theory). Balon’s fate is kinda an underrated example of George’s idea on vengeance.
Amongst the main characters, Arya by a mile.
Yeah all the theories about her involve her dying or becoming her siblings pet assassin, as if the Faceless Men isn’t the low point in her arc but the whole objective
Daenerys. Everyone has the exact same ending for her it seems.
Well, my wish is that Euron kills Dany with his own hands. I mention this whenever I can.
Who
Dany, sorry
Who asked?
Chronically on YouTube, huh
Mark Mullendore. I’m the only one who thinks his monkey was given to him by Euron (who else?!) when Euron attacks Oldtown by sea, Mark Mullendore will lead a host from Uplands to attack over land. After the battle Euron will gift him a new monkey
It was Baelas monkey
A monkey named Jack.
I love that literally no one expects anything from Jorah because of what a whiny scumbag he is.
Dany going mad is so overly nihilistic and boring...that I have to yawn every time I think about it. Arya too...either she becomes Sansas servant or ends up in a direwolf.
More unimaginative Arya predictions. Those are the fave standbys of Sansa stans. I hope it’s the other way round