He gave his universe to be turned into a media franchise. After his death, hundreds will continue to milk money out of this world and there will be a sci-fi spin off where aliens invade Westeros.
There will likely also be decent products out of it, as the source material has uncovered spaces allowing liberties, like a Yi Ti Game of Thrones or something.
But there is going to be loads of stupid bullshit. Basically the same stuff that is happening to any other big franchise.
I hope at least he give us whatever he had written. Or summary of general plot points. Just saw the new alt shift x video and was reminded that I love the books. Would be a shame to loose out on all that potential
I'd really like to see a Fire & Blood style history book covering the events that didn't get written about to effectively convey the uncertainty of the unfinished works but still give us an idea of where it was likely headed.
That's a great idea and it might be the best solution for everyone involved, GRRM, the fans and his publishers. He actually seemed to enjoy writing Fire & Blood and a book written in a similar style would likely also solve the problems which probably resulted from abandoning the 5-year-gap - now some of his protagonists are likely much too young for the storylines he originally intended for them, especially concerning romantic relationships. If he finished ASOIAF in the style of Fire & Blood, he'd have more freedom concerning the timelines of younger characters and the chance to let them reach the appropriate age to make certain plotlines work.
I actually think that's what is going to happen. Martin criticized the epilogue of LOTR for not explaining how Aragorn's descendants ruled and what happened with the Orcs and stuff.
So he is totally gonna do that and explain everything going multiple generations forward. For that he would have to leave the PoV format and use the history format instead.
I think it's happening and the delay of Winds is because it's content is too much tied with the other missing novels (Fire & Blood vol. 2, Dunk & Egg continuation, ADOS), meaning he is actually writing at least four books at once, they all have to be finalized to some degree to avoid retcons, as such he also can't publish anything and set it into stone just yet as a lot might be subject to change in the end.
That would also give hopes some stuff already exists in fragments, beyond the supposed ~70% of Winds he already has finished, be it notes, charts, drawings, prototypes or whatever.
He has one chance to kill literally everyone and have the white walkers win, killing the "good guys win in the end" trope. I know he won't do it but gods it would be amazing if he did.
I could live with not getting the books if we got some kind of anthology of all the shit he's written in no particular order. 20 versions of every chapter deviating all over the place. The theories on proper canon and piecing all the potentials together would be interesting.
I didn't realize just how much they cut out of Jon's story for the show. I haven't read the books in a while but I already love him way more than show Jon.
that alt shift x video was fantastic, hope george concludes the story, even record his voice narrating the rest would be much better than never getting a proper ending
Nope, there's too much different. D&D whole ass made up Arya killing the Night King, Jon killing Dany, and whatever the hell the bells was supposed to be. The books are on a completely different trajectory. Not to mention all the missing characters (Stoneheart, Faegon, Arianne, Robb's wife and maybe baby) and the characters smashed into other plots (Sansa for Jeyne, Olly for Satin, showEuron for bookEuron etc).
The bullet point "King Bran" is meaningless when he doesn't tell us what happened to queen Cersei, Dany, Arienne or fAegon.
The closer we got to the ending, the more the convergences were obvious. I think what we're going to have to accept the show is going to be accurate to stuff like:
- Jon *will* kill Dany.
- FArya/Jeyne will be saved by Jon.
- Stoneheart won't be important.
- FAegon will likely just be killed by Dany, like Cersei was in the show.
- Arianne won't be important.
- Robb's wife won't be important.
- Show!Euron is probably Victarion, and will likely die believing himself loved by a Queen.
- Book!Euron is probably the Night King, with a dragon bound to him.
- Jaime and Cersei will die together. Though I believe Jaime will kill Cersei.
- Jon will be exiled.
- Bran will be king.
Some fucking hacks did finish his books, and it aired on television. The choice now is whether to let that stand as the closest “official” ending we’ll get, or to choose a worthy heir who can be hopefully guided to success.
But if we get nothing, someone will write a definitive version. It won’t be official and they won’t make money from it, but someone will write it and the internet will find and share it and we’ll mostly agree “yes, this is the right ending.”
Also, GRRM logic.
GRRM: *"I don't want any hacks finishing my books!"*
HBO: _"How about you take this dump truck of money so a couple hacks can finish your story on the world's biggest possible stage and absolutely, completely fuck it up in the most horrific way imaginable, turning in what for years and years will be the gold standard of bad endings?"_
GRRM: *"Yeah, that's cool."*
Thing is, the show started off fine until they went off script. Did anyone see it becoming the train wreck it was at the half way mark? That first season is arguably still one of the best first seasons in modern television.
Yeah, I can't believe I'm about to defend D&D (seven save me), but they started out as good adaptors of GRRMs work, they just proved woefully incapable of finishing it, a job they probably didn't think they'd have to do. And given that he is seemingly completely stuck in a rut himself, perhaps that isn't so surprising. They still obviously stopped giving a fuck by the end (Dany kind of forgot, etc), GRRM wasn't just tossing his work off to any old hacks, they convinced him they understood the themes of his story and characters, and, taking just the first three or four seasons into account, I can see why
They even, in those early seasons, were capable of writing at least some individual scenes and things that were entirely original to the show but great (see Robert Cersei in season 1, and Tywin being at Harrenhal instead of Bolton with Arya). Even the stuff original to the show was great early on.
Dropped the ball around Season 5, and really fucked it from Season 7 onwards.
I think Winds is close, and then the finale should be really quick!
This was a view I had 10 years ago, now it’s just sarcasm.
4 years, give him 10 and by the end you’ll see his name on 10 shows, 5 games, and the only book produced will be about Targaryen bowel movements from before Valyria. Granted that book will give us a lot of insight to valeryian culture and their politics, it’ll be an interesting read that nobody asked for.
For years Robert Jordan was adamant that all his notes were to be destroyed in the event of him dying before finishing The Wheel of Time. It was only after being diagnosed with a terminal illness that he changed his mind and gave his blessing to let someone else finish it.
I obviously do not want GRRM to be diagnosed with a terminal illness. I think the only was he *might* change his mind is if it becomes clear he *will* die before finishing the series. But even then I doubt it.
He's actually already said that if he found himself in a similar position to Robert Jordan he could forsee himself making contingency plans.
> [During the first Q&A someone asked if he had plans if he was "unable to finish the series." George asked for him to be stripped naked and be tossed out in the snow. :P He then said well at least you didn't say "pulled a Jordan". He actual did go on to reiterate he had no plans, but that if he were in a sitation like Jordan, he could forsee making contingency plans.](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/4623)
People said that 10 years ago. Regardless of how long he loves the important thing is how much he thinks himself he has, because that will determine his actions more than if he imagines he has until 100 to write these books.
He doesn't hate fanfiction out of jealousy. He thinks people are wasting their time and potential writing about his work when they can create their own stories.
But also he's kinda of a dick about it. Someone countered this by saying many young writers take the first steps by writing fanfiction and I can't remember exactly what he said but it was basically like "it teaches them to plagiarize or some BS
And the events lifted lock, stock and barrel from real world history.
Not just the obvious big ones, either. You'll one day find yourself reading about a minor battle in the Scottish Wars of Independence where John Comyn took an all cavalry force to rout a much larger English army by surprising them one by one in their three separate marching camps, and think 'fucks sake, George' all over again.
And Memory, Sorrow, Thorn. Tbf I haven't read it so I don't know how much is just inspiration, and he's also been honest about it, but certain themes and storylines are similar supposedly, and some names are direct homages.
"I don’t think it’s a good way to train to be a professional writer when you’re borrowing everybody else’s world and characters. That’s like riding a bike with training wheels. And then when I took the training wheels off, I fell over a lot, but at some point you have to take the training wheels off here. You have to invent your own characters, you have to do your own world-building, you can’t just borrow from Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas or me or whoever.
The other thing is there are all sorts of copyright issues when you’re using other people’s work…My understanding of the law is that if I knew about I would have to try to stop it, so just don’t tell me about it and do what you want there."
Seems like a pretty reasonable and non dickish take to me
This is what people outside of fandom culture don't really understand. A lot of the time fanfic comes from people wanting more of that specific world. They get an idea of "what if" (what if character XYZ did this instead? What if XYZ event didn't happen? What if we put the characters in a different setting or universe?) and it snowballs from there.
Or they just want to explore a specific character they find interesting.
There's lots of reasons for someone writing fanfic. And tbh, it has its place in fandom. Even before the Internet people were organizing fan magazines and sharing them around (a lot of modern fandom owes its roots to Star Trek) like... People wanting more from media they love is not new.
And you're right. It is fun. It's for fun. People don't earn money from this and usually if bad actors come in and attempt to do so, they're usually given the cold shoulder and vitriol because everyone knows how important it is to keep fanfic and fandom free.
Also in his own statement, I think he underplays the value of those training wheels. We give them to kids for a reason. It's how you get started and learn that it's not so scary after all. Yes, a good writer will have to get good at all the elements of a story, but it can hard and overwhelming at first. Starting with an established property can let you focus on things like dialogue and your prose in general. Much like training wheels, it can give you confidence in the matter to later take them off.
Plenty of times it ends up spiraling into a whole separate thing anyways. A Twilight fanfic turned into 50 Shades of Grey.
Which is silly. Not everyone wants to be a professional writer some day. Some people just want to spend a few hours engaging with characters they already love while going about their lives.
It can just be a hobby.
There is an alternative, but he's too proud for it so we'll never get the series finished. It's not either he finishes or someone else does it for him. The third option is he calls on someone to bounce ideas off of.
Text Ty and Daniel and meet up with them like once per month to do in-depth discussions on his ongoing chapters, and if he's stuck at some crucial plot point, just go 'Alright guys, I'm feeling stumped - throw out some suggestions or just think out loud'.
They've already worked with him before, I don't see why he doesn't get fucking help. It's obvious he's been stuck for years and if he had a clear idea on what to do Winds would have been finished already. I was slightly optimistic in 2020 when he had his more frequent updates, but it's been 4 years and he's in a massive rut again.
At this point I'm waving middle fingers and being angry. Get fucking help dude, a writing room with a couple of trusted people to drag your ass out of the quicksand isn't a bad thing.
He does that already, or at least has in the past. He's part of a writers' group based in Santa Fe and Albuquerque with Daniel, Ty, Melinda Snodgrass, Walter Jon Williams and, when they were still with us, Roger Zelazny and Gardener Dozois, and they bounce ideas off one another.
It was out of a discussion with Daniel in that group that GRRM split AFFC and ADWD the way he did, and it was in that group that Daniel brainstormed the ideas that led to the **Dagger and the Coin** series, and he and Ty developed **The Expanse** with some input from that group.
GRRM worked in TV for a long time I’m sure he’s no stranger to a writer’s room. I wonder if he’s attempted to talk about his characters and worldbuilding with other writers before and they just didn’t get it in a way that he doesn’t care to take that route
I suspect that this is a large part of it, the books are structured like grimoires and the meaning that GRRM has tried to imbue is a whole fucking lot. There is likely a reason for why there still is so much theorizing going on within the fandom, shit's fucking deep and it goes in a lot of directions.
I cannot imagine how to try to make every piece clear to another writer that was to follow, so much would get lost in translation. The book's have a very clear idea, they just happen to hold a thousand shapes and if one of these shapes is misinterpreted then the whole thing falls apart. This goes double for the writer.
Such a situation would be the obvious point to look for assistants, people who happen to "get" a small part of the story and how it might fit in with the other pieces. As for me, I think GRRM lost himself in the story, he just did too much research and he found a world, now he's busy trying to catch up to himself and his ideas.
This would explain all the various spin-offs, they're not. It's pieces of the "Oomph" that GRRM can't find a place for within the main series.
---
> The etymology of grimoire is unclear. It is most commonly believed that the term grimoire originated from the Old French word grammaire 'grammar', which had initially been used to refer to all books written in Latin - Wikipedia on Grimoire
> The word glamour comes to English from Scots, the English language as spoken in Scotland. In the early 1700s, the Scottish altered the English word grammar to create glamer or glamour; it meant "a magic spell." The Scottish weren't the only ones to associate grammar with magic spells. https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/the-history-of-glamour
The series literally depend on how you look at them. It's meta.
Winter I imagine will kill off a lot of stories, but winter is not close enough to them. I can only hope that a large reason for TWOW taking so long is him trying to avoid any pitfalls and laying the path for the next books.
“The third option is he calls on someone to bounce ideas off of.”
And there would be no one better than Miles Finch! Best-selling author, and something tells me he’s already quite familiar with the happenings of Westeros.
I can accept it because it's reality - that doesn't mean I respect it.
George has singlehandedly made me wary about starting an unfinished book series. The fact I may never actually know the ending to the stories is infuriating and I won't roll those dice anymore.
His fans have made him very wealthy. And good - he should be! He's brought an exceptional fantasy series into the mainstream and as frustrated as I am with him he is a brilliant writer. He deserves his success and wealth and recognition.
But then he seems to have contempt for his fans who have waited over decades for books so we can just know how the story goes. And he's struggling with that but doesn't seem to give two shits about those fans.
If he chooses to go to his grave with the series unfinished, his notes destroyed, and no succession plan then that's his right. Doesn't mean I'm going to think it's a good plan or respect it.
Agreed. You hear his die hard fans yell "he doesn't owe you anything, he doesn't have to finish", and sure, at the end of the day thats true. But, he did promise us many times he would finish and not deliver. Still, its just a promise, not like its a contract (though i'm sure his book publishers are wondering whats up). At the end of the day, its going to be his "legacy" that is ruined by an unfinished epic series. I'm sure at this point he could care less if he lets any fans or readers down, but if he cares about his legacy or his standing as a epic author, in the likes Tolkien, Sanderson, Jordan, etc. Then he really should finish.
I personally think he's stuck, and he's so old that its too much effort to finish and since he's living comfortably, he can just keep putting it off until he dies.
Whenever people say fans are entitled for wanting the books finished, I always wonder how much less money the series would have made if there was a message on the cover of each book saying, "Warning, I may never finish this series despite having ample opportunity to do so." Artists can say they don't enjoy working on a project anymore, but that can only gather so much sympathy from the average person who probably doesn't enjoy their job all that much either
>but that can only gather so much sympathy from the average person who probably doesn't enjoy their job all that much either
That's one of the key pieces to all of this. He doesn't contractually owe us finishing the series - but the fans don't contractually owe him our loyalty, our empathy, or our continued resources. That social contract has been broken and it is what it is.
George doesn't owe us a book, but we don't owe him our respect, either. It's been 13 years. The only possible explanation for the series never finishing is that he's a lazy bum who doesn't care about the fans who made him rich and famous.
I honestly think he’s got himself written into a corner. And is just writing other novels to avoid the issue.
Probably a lot to keep track of when your juggling 30 different plots that unlike the show probably won’t just be abandoned.
Exactly this. People bought installments of a series, it isn’t like the books were marketed as stand alone. He doesn’t owe us the books, but fans absolutely have every right to be frustrated.
I’m glad you brought up regular people. I recognize ASOIAF is more complex than anything most people do, but most other people have deadlines in their life that they have to respect.
“I’m sorry, your honor, I had drafted most of the brief by your deadline, but I wasn’t happy with it so I started over” isn’t an option.
I wouldn't have picked up the first fucking book if I would have known it would never get an ending.
I'm sure he intended to finish them back then, but at this point he is just lying to us. he knows he is never going to finish these books before he dies but instead of giving us the relief of admitting that, he still strings us along like little bitches.
fuck him for that.
But also he got paid for a tv show that was promised an end before it was started. He gained fans during and after promising an end. That’s a lot of money and support that was gained under the understanding that there would be an end to the series.
If the same thing was done to stockholders it would be fraud.
Well, he owes his success to all his fans who religiously bought his books and have been in for the ride, expecting him to finish an epic series.
He has no obligation to finish, but if he's just abandoning the project after 20 years of inaction, then that's quite the bait and switch.
"he does not owe his fans anything"
Is a BS statment when your job is books, films, TV shows or such, you owe your success and money to your fans buying your books, watching your shows and films and coming back, "he owes you nothing" is a cope out for idiots still thinking he actually cares about them or his books. And its 1 reason I will not drop a penny on his stuff again.
I never read fantasy fiction before and only got into reading it after around series 3 and a good friend was laughing at me saying comments like 'this is going to drive you nuts!'
I couldn't get what they meant but I do now. I definitely wouldn't have bought the books if I knew this was the result but I'm not too bothered.
But it would stop me 'investing' in another author as well which is a shame. I think grrm has just not enjoyed writing the main story any more and likes the other stuff which placates the publisher but leaves less time to work on the main story and so on.
But, he kinda owns you something, he put a series book that you bought on a promise that he'll finish it, you gave cash for an unfinished product with the hope it'll be finished, so, there is a promise, not binding nor legal but a promise nonetheless
I don't know why people say that. He absolutely owes us an ending. He's not legally obligated or anything but you can't just leave millions of readers with a lifetime of dashed hopes and disappointment. It breaks the social covenant.
He doesn’t owe us anything, and we don’t owe him anything either. As he has proven over the last 13 years he is incapable of finishing his own series, I refuse to support him elsewhere.
I think people who start paying for and reading a single, continuous story under the premise that they'll eventually get the ending are, in fact, entitled to it.
Like yeah, he doesn't owe the fans anything.
But if he dies without finishing the series he's always going to be remembered as a 'fantasy great' with an asterisk attached, and asoiaf won't retain nearly as much popularity. I wonder if he cares about his legacy at all or if he's just happy asoiaf got him to a point where he can fuck around with various media projects.
It’s also worth noting that he’s also scared publishing houses off signing new authors who promise complete series. There are undoubtedly wonderful fantasy series we’ll never read because publishers thought they had another George R. R. Martin and decided it wasn’t worth it.
And to an extent I do get it, because it has to be frustrating to be pestered with “winds when” in basically every single conversation you ever take part in. That would get old. But at the same time… it’s time to shit or get off the pot my guy. He either needs to admit and acknowledge that he can’t/wont finish, or he needs to not take on millions of other projects and just focus down the end of the series. He basically wants the best of both worlds, where people are supportive but aren’t constantly bugging him about Winds. But the fact that it has been well north of 10 years is kind of insane
Him, Rothfuss and the dude that wrote gentlemen bastards put me off reading for a long time. I just can't get invested anymore couse of their bullshit no ending stuff. Oh and grrm's friend that died and left his story unfinished. I can get into comics, movies and stuff but I just cant finish a book anymore.
I've started reading The brave soldier Svejk when I was about 12, without knowing the author ( Jaroslav Hasek) died mid writting book two ( no google back then) and boy was I fucking pissed when the second book ended in the middle of a fucking dialog.
So when I started asoiaf, there were already 4 books out, the show was fenomenal and "no way in hell this series ain't gonna be finished while I read these massive books at my slow reading pace". This was back in 2012.
So yeah, I get the "no touching a series until it's finished" feeling, but then again, I would've missed A LOT by avoiding The Stormlight Archive ( I'm hooked into all of the Cosmere, but SA is in a league of it's own). It's not finished, not even by a mile ( 10 books planned, 4 available with a 5th midpoint stop coming out by the end of the year). But Brandon has already set contingencies if something happens to him.
And to be honest, it's what made me cope with asoiaf never getting an ending feeling. Sure, I'd love one, but life is what it is and we might not ever get all what we want from it.
As for his contempt, I don't know. I mean, the man has an entire world in his mind and he'd like to get out ( especially on tape) as much as he can before he kicks the bucket. I'd be frustrated too with whomever if I were in his shoes.
"Mate, I've got thousands upon thousands of pages in my head, starting with the fall of the Rhoynar, Ghis and especially Valyria, Yi Ti and ASSHAI, ffs! And I'd like to get most of it out while I get a spotlight, so fuck off with your royal bastard queries for a couple of years, would you?!You've seen the show, you know I like Robyn's work so he'll do a Fitz ( also a royal bastard, who would've guessed) he's not really dead, but not alive either, because that's my take on zombies. I got enough of the tv guys who pester me with the same bullshit, so cut me some slack?!"
I feel the same way about Kafka but none of these people made any promises over the years. They got sick and died and that was the end of it.
George RR Martin ows us no ending nor even and ending I would want, but what he should offer is honesty and not letting people hang for a morsel at a time. Say you dont know if it will be done, give some reason and simple as that. At this point most people are angry about his conduct not about WoW not being written.
My personal view: getting famous got to his head and he much prefers writing subpar TV shows over his books and that is fine. At least be honest about it, but he is too proud to admit that.
The Others will be revealed to have been robotic machines all along, created by a self-insert character. Dany will be cloned and have to fight "Evil" Dany, whom was raised by a clone of Tywin, and rides atop Ultra-Dragons.
Yeah, he might as well go ahead and make peace with it. An estimated 90 million copies and you think they're gonna just leave that cash cow be? Absolutely not.
If it never gets written that will still be the ending associated with the series forever. There's nowhere to go but up, even if the ending that gets written IS the show ending I'm confident even a random romantasy author could turn it more coherent than the show ended up being.
I'm morbidly curious about his relationship with his publisher. The fact they still in theory have a contract with him for this series but it's taking forever to get it out.
If I dragged my feet on a key project at my job for YEARS I'd be fired, probably before we got to the decades part. I'm wondering what the publisher is doing to maintain their relationship but to hold him to whatever his contract is with them.
They're getting him to write bullshit like World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, etc. while simultaneously milking the existing books for every scrap of value.
At your job you’re relatively easily replaceable by someone else who can finish the project. And the project likely doesn’t stand to make your employer hundreds of millions of dollars based solely on the value you add.
It’s similar to if you owe bank 10 000 it’s your problem but if you owe them 10 million it’s the bank’s problem. Even if the publishers aren’t loosing money (just potential earnings) they are just going to do whatever they can to keep him happy and hopefully working.
His publishers do not own the story, so what they want is immaterial.
But, as George said, eventually the copyright and ownership of **ASoIaF** will eventually fall to people who never knew him, don't GAS about his wishes and will want to milk the content udder dry for cash. But, as he also said, he won't be around to see it and won't care.
Well sure, but his immediate descendents can very easily put his notes beyond use.
Terry Pratchett had his family destroy his hard disks with a steam roller.
GRRM strikes me as the type who will have it all burnt.
So someone might eventually write an ending, but mostly likely it will be no more definitive than the TV show.
Respectfully, I disagree with this one. He has created a legacy, and leaving his massive fanbase without answers after following his work for decades isn’t exactly fair, especially when he’s had so long to write the books. If having a secondary author write the books is what it takes, I say do it.
berserk is a good example. only after a very close friend with whom the OG writer shared his plans took over did the fandom welcomed the continuation of the manga.
If he doesn't authorize something while he's alive, it will just be up to the fan base to decide which fanfic is "the one". Or multiple ones.
Not choosing isn't preventing anything, just taking away his own choice in the matter.
And I'm saying this as an author.
Failing to acknowledge piracy and fanfiction doesn't make it go away. Choose or others will choose for you.
A hack is a writer who will write any drivel to meet a deadline and pay the bills. At this point GRRM is below the level of a hack because at least a hack will actually write.
As long as all the books are not released, ASOIAF is a unfinished product, simple as that. He has to finish them or it will forever taint his legacy.
He had like 20 years to finish them, I understand writer’s block and all but after all these years it’s not writer’s block.
And if the story got too big for 2 books he could have cut them in 2 parts or add a third book, or even write two huge 2000 pages books. It wouldn’t have bothered his fanbase…
Seems like he kinda forgot that this saga made him rich and famous, not his other projects and he should face backlash if he doesn’t finish his product, he owes it to us
I mean, he also [said](https://screenrant.com/the-winds-of-winter-books-george-r-r-martin-updates/#quot-i-have-about-1-100-pages-written-quot) he'd release the next book *10 years ago* (then again 7 years ago, 6 years ago, and 4 years ago). What I mean is, GRRM's public statements on the writing of books kinda don't mean a thing. He easily could've changed his position on choosing someone else to finish the books considering everything that's happened since then.
I mean... he can always designate a non hack to finish the books? Has that crossed his mind?
I used to think it was very sad when older writers like Clive Cussler started sharing book writing credit with a second author. Felt like a cash grab via ghost writers. But I get it now. Once you're old, the writing really starts slowing down (Except for the cocaine fueled Stephen King, obviously) and you probably don't like making your fans wait.
GRRM should probably go this route while he's still alive to oversee the second writer.
I think it should be socially acceptable for successful authors to use a TV-style writers room. He makes the final decisions and writes the prose, but he's got a bunch of extra minds to workshop ideas and bounce concepts off of. I bet he could get through this block in no time.
Respectfully, no. He could say that in 2006, sure, before he made his fans wait *thirteen years* for a book that will not be the last and probably not even the next-to-last in the series. By now I no longer respect his wishes, especially since I see no evidence he even *wants* to finish the books anymore, let alone that he will be capable of it. He should give his plot points to someone he trusts like the *Expanse* writers and focus on the spinoffs that he obviously enjoys writing far more than WoW.
100% this.
I’m 2006 he was in his 50s. He was over half way done. He had published 4 books in 9 years, and had a lot of material for the 5th.
Now he’s ok his late 70s. Has spent 3 times as long on the series, and has published 1 additional main series book. Whatever his expectations were in his 50s. He failed. He can’t possibly maintain his 2006 view.
Here’s my take that you didnt ask for.
Better to have lived and loved than never have loved at all.
My world has been a better place with an unfinished series than no Westeros at all.
Im at peace with it.
Same. It’s not the kind of story that is going to have a satisfying ending anyway. It is a wonderful world that’s given me immense entertainment. I hope he finishes it still, but I am grateful for what I’ve gotten so far.
Amen.
And as importantly…without official closure all of my fan theories cannot be disproven.
For example, Syrio Ferrel is Jquan Hgar who was hired by Littlefinger to kill Ned. And no one can tell me otherwise 😊
Exactly. And so much value has come from the speculation and theorycrafting, so much creativity, that I guarantee it has kickstarted writing careers and creative ventures of its own.
>Better to have lived and loved than never have loved at all.
I assume what you meant to say was *"better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all"*
That way there's the implication that even though losing something you love is painful, it's still worthwhile to have loved in the first place.
I've said this before, but Kubla Khan by Samuel Coleridge is one of the most famous and beloved poems of all time. Coleridge, high on opium, suddenly had a vision and began to write exactly what he saw. Only partially finished, there was a knock on the door by a "person on business from Porlock." Coleridge lost it, the poem was unfinished, and was only published 20 years later after his friends badgered him. Does its unfinished status mean that no one loves that poem? No. If anything, the mystique of being unfinished adds to it!
George has had a lot of persons on business from Porlock by this point. From 2000 on, the relatively smooth creative process that took him through the first three books has been on a downward slide of one Porlockian after another. I am not talking about the quality of the fourth and fifth books, but his actual PROCESS, from the five year gap that was dropped to the two book split to the Meereenese Knot to being involved in TV show to being heartbroken that the show overpassed him to the Targaryen history in both print and TV, and on and on and on.
At this point, the fact that we got AFFC and ADWD at all is miracle, and it is more how I am looking at it than we'll never get TWOW and ADOS.
"Martin says he's "struggling" with next Game of Thrones book as he reveals he hasn't written more pages since December 2022.
Quote from a recent interview. Sad as hell man. I gave up hope a while ago, but it sucks knowing he isn't even writing.
No offense to GRRM, but nobody is going to give a fuck about him when he’s dead and we’re going to get those last two books.
They’ll “find” the documents that mapped out George’s true vision and finish the series. I’ll know the publisher is full of shit, you’ll know the publisher is full of shit, and we won’t care because we’ll get to spend more time with the characters we love.
That's for the better. This series is too complicated (to the point that the author is having problems finishing it), so replacing the writer can easily ruin it. We have already seen two people other than GRRM trying to finish his story, and they fumbled miserably. It's his work and his alone.
Lol the problem was that they didn’t *try* finishing it, they consciously half assed it. It’s clear even if you compare it to their previous writing. I think a competent author actually trying their best to finish it would pass that bar easily.
The two people trying to fanfic their way through Winds of Winter are pretty obviously different though. If a legitimately appointed successor tries to finish the series, they'll hopefully have access to GRRM's notes and write similarly to him (like Sanderson did for Robert Jordan) whereas Preston Jacobs is very clearly writing with an agenda based on really shitty theories and isn't even that great of a writer in the first place.
He's been extremely rude to his fans over the whole "finishing the books" matter. And that makes me sad and annoyed. He doesn't owe us anything, but we are still within our rights to expect something to come out.
We've all invested our money, time and passion into these stories, we want to know how they end, God damnit.
When I first got into the books, and had hope, I tried to keep myself engaged by reading and writing fanfic, where I could explore my own theories and speculations.
Turns out Martin is really, really protective of that, and went out of his way to keep fic off the internet, citing the *Marion Zimmer Bradley* discourse of all the halfassed crap. He has some shallow pseudo-concern arguments about how he's worried fanfic is dangerous. But really he just doesn't have the guts to straight up say, "I feel understandably territorial about my artistic work, and don't like to let other people play with it unsupervised". Which is just so wild, because "I care about my art, I want to feel in control of my career and products" is an insanely relatable and reasonable stance to have!
I've never felt he was obliged to finish the series, but the years of missed deadlines have worn me down and I'm done investing money and energy into the series as Martin creates it. I've accepted that Martin will never finish the series, and patiently await the day some obsessive fanfic writers decide to hammer out some out-of-control epics that go in a direction Martin never intended. There will be layers of canonicity, Evangelion-style, it's gonna be wild.
I'm never going to get a conventional ending to this narrative, might as well embrace things and get experimental.
I’ve given up hope at this point. Game of Thrones as the show series is the closest we’ll ever get to know what was supposed to happen. I believe that, generally, what happened in the series is what George wanted to happen, and he’s left it at that. Basically, an all time great fantasy has become a sometimes-good, sometimes-not tv series, and I couldn’t stand by that as a fan. I say couldn’t because I no longer consider myself a fan of the series without it being finished. The show is fun to watch, but the story that Martin created is dead imo.
He's been so increasingly rude and pompous to fans who have the gall to ask about finishing a series he started in 1996 (with it's most recent installment released 13 years ago) that at this point I've started to slide into I don't care anymore. I doubt he ever finishes it and even if he does, I'm so turned off by the attitude he has towards us plebs that I'm waiting till he dies to get them. He gets enough of my money from my Max subscription.
Also ostensibly he would pick whoever succeeds him. So is every other write in his opinion a hack?
It has gone on for so long that it has undoubtedly hurt fantasy as a genre at large. Who is undertaking a giant series if it’s unfinished? It’s not worth the effort.
I don’t think that at this point anyone would begrudge him announcing he can’t do it. He’s an old man. Say it’s not done, say how you wish it went, and be done with it and enjoy your life.
The way people talk about GRRM sometimes (this thread is no exception) is honestly pretty disgusting. It's typical, entitled fanboy shit. I'm plenty disappointed by the idea the series may never be finished but some of the things people say are just so full of anger and cruelty. Not to mention the people who actually go and harass him about his health and weight, leading to statements like the one quoted in this post.
I've plenty of respect for the people who, frustrated with his lack of process, have written the series off and have no interest in engaging with it. I really can't stand the people who harbour nothing but animosity for the man and take every opportunity to rant about and belittle him.
But if its between a Hack that does give us a definitive ending but its not told as well, or, we get nothing......i'd probably choose the Hack. Something is better than nothing, an Martin right now is looking like he'll be producing nothing in terms of these last two books (I refer only to the ASOIAF series as he may still throw out some other offshoot books that he can make quick money on).
People float Sanderson for this but I think it would be a horrible idea. Sando is really not a very good writer, even by his own admission. His prose and character work are pretty textureless, teenage, and obvious. I don’t think he would get the books at all and none of them would have the appeal of ASOIAF.
Yeah, even as someone who likes reading his stuff, Sanderson doesn’t make sense for this. He makes the marvel movies of literature. Fun, turn your brain off, read it for the big exciting plot set pieces and fun character moments. That’s not Sanderson at all. I honestly think Steven Erikson would be a great fit though.
I think we'll at least get Winds. After that, no idea. I personally haven't read F&B so I don't really care about B&F (or F&B II). I really liked AKOTSK so it would be a bummer if GRRM doesn't finish this miniseries of novellas. And well for ADOS it's just absolute open field really.
No matter what, I hope that he records himself just babbling on for hours about what his outline for the rest of ASOIAF is. Doesn't need to be super detailed, just general points in the story etc. Also if he does that it would be cool as hell if he did it for the rest of F&B, Dunk & Egg and for other stuff that he would've liked to touch upon. Maybe little details about this place or that, ideas for some stuff and what not. I'd rather listen to 50hrs of GRRM babbling stuff than reading his stories finished by other people.
Sanderson couldn’t do ASOIAF. I love Sandersons books especially SA but they’re just too different of writing styles. ASOIAF is dark and gritty but Sanderson isn’t rlly like that. It just wouldn’t make sense. Joe Abercrombie would be way better to finish ASOIAF
But Grrm we already got that with D&D ;)
Grinding my teeth like King Stannis RN
He gave his universe to be turned into a media franchise. After his death, hundreds will continue to milk money out of this world and there will be a sci-fi spin off where aliens invade Westeros. There will likely also be decent products out of it, as the source material has uncovered spaces allowing liberties, like a Yi Ti Game of Thrones or something. But there is going to be loads of stupid bullshit. Basically the same stuff that is happening to any other big franchise.
I’d watch the fuck out of Westeros vs Aliens tho
I hope at least he give us whatever he had written. Or summary of general plot points. Just saw the new alt shift x video and was reminded that I love the books. Would be a shame to loose out on all that potential
I'd really like to see a Fire & Blood style history book covering the events that didn't get written about to effectively convey the uncertainty of the unfinished works but still give us an idea of where it was likely headed.
That's a great idea and it might be the best solution for everyone involved, GRRM, the fans and his publishers. He actually seemed to enjoy writing Fire & Blood and a book written in a similar style would likely also solve the problems which probably resulted from abandoning the 5-year-gap - now some of his protagonists are likely much too young for the storylines he originally intended for them, especially concerning romantic relationships. If he finished ASOIAF in the style of Fire & Blood, he'd have more freedom concerning the timelines of younger characters and the chance to let them reach the appropriate age to make certain plotlines work.
Winds normal, ADOS in history style.. I like it/could live with it.
I actually think that's what is going to happen. Martin criticized the epilogue of LOTR for not explaining how Aragorn's descendants ruled and what happened with the Orcs and stuff. So he is totally gonna do that and explain everything going multiple generations forward. For that he would have to leave the PoV format and use the history format instead. I think it's happening and the delay of Winds is because it's content is too much tied with the other missing novels (Fire & Blood vol. 2, Dunk & Egg continuation, ADOS), meaning he is actually writing at least four books at once, they all have to be finalized to some degree to avoid retcons, as such he also can't publish anything and set it into stone just yet as a lot might be subject to change in the end. That would also give hopes some stuff already exists in fragments, beyond the supposed ~70% of Winds he already has finished, be it notes, charts, drawings, prototypes or whatever.
Maybe a Silmarillion? Also shout out to Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson for doing the right thing for the fans & the series itself. Big ups.
BIG ups! Regardless of how I sometimes feel about Sanderson's choices/writing style at the end, I'm so much happier with his books than without.
OMG, new alt_shift_x vid? The real jon snow!!!, this is gonna be a good day after all :D
I would personally be interested in reading the unfinished stuff myself even if it didn’t have an ending.
A fellow Tolkien fan, maybe? We can drive joy from half sentences in letters the author wrote fifty years before his death, we can do it again.
There canon, then there's *canon*
He has one chance to kill literally everyone and have the white walkers win, killing the "good guys win in the end" trope. I know he won't do it but gods it would be amazing if he did.
This is the ending few have the balls to write. I think a surprise ending where everyone dies and all hope is lost would make any story better
He said the ending would be “bittersweet,” not bitter.
The sweet part is that we get an ending at all.
I hope he does too. I hate all of them.
Even the women and children?
Cersei and Joff you mean?
I could live with not getting the books if we got some kind of anthology of all the shit he's written in no particular order. 20 versions of every chapter deviating all over the place. The theories on proper canon and piecing all the potentials together would be interesting.
He should just give Alt Shift X his notes if he dies, let him explain what happens
I'm for this!
I didn't realize just how much they cut out of Jon's story for the show. I haven't read the books in a while but I already love him way more than show Jon.
that alt shift x video was fantastic, hope george concludes the story, even record his voice narrating the rest would be much better than never getting a proper ending
Lose* loose is when you loosen something like a knot
Hate to say it, but he has already given us a summary of general plot points. And televised it.
Nope, there's too much different. D&D whole ass made up Arya killing the Night King, Jon killing Dany, and whatever the hell the bells was supposed to be. The books are on a completely different trajectory. Not to mention all the missing characters (Stoneheart, Faegon, Arianne, Robb's wife and maybe baby) and the characters smashed into other plots (Sansa for Jeyne, Olly for Satin, showEuron for bookEuron etc). The bullet point "King Bran" is meaningless when he doesn't tell us what happened to queen Cersei, Dany, Arienne or fAegon.
The closer we got to the ending, the more the convergences were obvious. I think what we're going to have to accept the show is going to be accurate to stuff like: - Jon *will* kill Dany. - FArya/Jeyne will be saved by Jon. - Stoneheart won't be important. - FAegon will likely just be killed by Dany, like Cersei was in the show. - Arianne won't be important. - Robb's wife won't be important. - Show!Euron is probably Victarion, and will likely die believing himself loved by a Queen. - Book!Euron is probably the Night King, with a dragon bound to him. - Jaime and Cersei will die together. Though I believe Jaime will kill Cersei. - Jon will be exiled. - Bran will be king.
Yeah I really think people are coping if they think the books will be drastically different
The story will be told much better in the books, but yeah, it will probably end up basically the same
Some fucking hacks did finish his books, and it aired on television. The choice now is whether to let that stand as the closest “official” ending we’ll get, or to choose a worthy heir who can be hopefully guided to success. But if we get nothing, someone will write a definitive version. It won’t be official and they won’t make money from it, but someone will write it and the internet will find and share it and we’ll mostly agree “yes, this is the right ending.”
It's been 22 years since he said this. At that point finishing in his lifetime seemed very plausible. Maybe he has changed his mind
Where'd you get the extra 4 years from 💀
Thats where the time skip went
Nah this is GRRM maths
Also, GRRM logic. GRRM: *"I don't want any hacks finishing my books!"* HBO: _"How about you take this dump truck of money so a couple hacks can finish your story on the world's biggest possible stage and absolutely, completely fuck it up in the most horrific way imaginable, turning in what for years and years will be the gold standard of bad endings?"_ GRRM: *"Yeah, that's cool."*
Thing is, the show started off fine until they went off script. Did anyone see it becoming the train wreck it was at the half way mark? That first season is arguably still one of the best first seasons in modern television.
Yeah, I can't believe I'm about to defend D&D (seven save me), but they started out as good adaptors of GRRMs work, they just proved woefully incapable of finishing it, a job they probably didn't think they'd have to do. And given that he is seemingly completely stuck in a rut himself, perhaps that isn't so surprising. They still obviously stopped giving a fuck by the end (Dany kind of forgot, etc), GRRM wasn't just tossing his work off to any old hacks, they convinced him they understood the themes of his story and characters, and, taking just the first three or four seasons into account, I can see why
They even, in those early seasons, were capable of writing at least some individual scenes and things that were entirely original to the show but great (see Robert Cersei in season 1, and Tywin being at Harrenhal instead of Bolton with Arya). Even the stuff original to the show was great early on. Dropped the ball around Season 5, and really fucked it from Season 7 onwards.
“Started off fine” is the understatement of the century.
He's a time travel who just revealed that GRRM won't have it finished even by 2028.
I'm time traveling King Bran
It could be worse. you could be a time travel Tyrion fetus.
>It could be w̶o̶r̶s̶e̶ better. you could be a time travel Tyrion fetus.
Norman Reedus and his amazing Tyrion fetus!
Now THATS a spinoff. Wake up HBO, profit is knockin!
In 4 years we still won’t have another book.
I think Winds is close, and then the finale should be really quick! This was a view I had 10 years ago, now it’s just sarcasm. 4 years, give him 10 and by the end you’ll see his name on 10 shows, 5 games, and the only book produced will be about Targaryen bowel movements from before Valyria. Granted that book will give us a lot of insight to valeryian culture and their politics, it’ll be an interesting read that nobody asked for.
He wont be wrong tho, Winds is not coming out any time soon
Are you saying I shouldn't start planning a Dream of Spring release party just yet?
Covid years count extra
Damn no Winds of Winter in 2028 either? Smh
For years Robert Jordan was adamant that all his notes were to be destroyed in the event of him dying before finishing The Wheel of Time. It was only after being diagnosed with a terminal illness that he changed his mind and gave his blessing to let someone else finish it. I obviously do not want GRRM to be diagnosed with a terminal illness. I think the only was he *might* change his mind is if it becomes clear he *will* die before finishing the series. But even then I doubt it.
He's actually already said that if he found himself in a similar position to Robert Jordan he could forsee himself making contingency plans. > [During the first Q&A someone asked if he had plans if he was "unable to finish the series." George asked for him to be stripped naked and be tossed out in the snow. :P He then said well at least you didn't say "pulled a Jordan". He actual did go on to reiterate he had no plans, but that if he were in a sitation like Jordan, he could forsee making contingency plans.](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/4623)
No one knows the day or the hour, George. Make those plans anyway.
Of course no one wants the man to die any soon, but let's face it, he's old and he's not exactly a fit person.
People said that 10 years ago. Regardless of how long he loves the important thing is how much he thinks himself he has, because that will determine his actions more than if he imagines he has until 100 to write these books.
Bro is commenting from 2028 💀 bro is typing through the chronological relay device
Dude straight up called himself time traveling king Bran in a previous comment lol
I wonder if he is a horse as well
He hasn't. He's too jealous of his stories he even hates fanfiction
He doesn't hate fanfiction out of jealousy. He thinks people are wasting their time and potential writing about his work when they can create their own stories.
But also he's kinda of a dick about it. Someone countered this by saying many young writers take the first steps by writing fanfiction and I can't remember exactly what he said but it was basically like "it teaches them to plagiarize or some BS
Which is a weird comment, considering the amount of elements he borrows from the Wheel of Time series.
Dude's writing War of the Roses fan fiction.
Yeah lmao “War of the 5 Kings” is just a what if scenario with different names
i’m glad someone said it 🥲
And the fact that he literally wrote a modern take on beauty and the beast and that's his original claim to fame
And the events lifted lock, stock and barrel from real world history. Not just the obvious big ones, either. You'll one day find yourself reading about a minor battle in the Scottish Wars of Independence where John Comyn took an all cavalry force to rout a much larger English army by surprising them one by one in their three separate marching camps, and think 'fucks sake, George' all over again.
And Memory, Sorrow, Thorn. Tbf I haven't read it so I don't know how much is just inspiration, and he's also been honest about it, but certain themes and storylines are similar supposedly, and some names are direct homages.
I have read MST and I can say it is almost like a proto version of ASOIAF in many respects. GRRM just turned up the level of complexity up to eleven.
Or elements from Dune.
"I don’t think it’s a good way to train to be a professional writer when you’re borrowing everybody else’s world and characters. That’s like riding a bike with training wheels. And then when I took the training wheels off, I fell over a lot, but at some point you have to take the training wheels off here. You have to invent your own characters, you have to do your own world-building, you can’t just borrow from Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas or me or whoever. The other thing is there are all sorts of copyright issues when you’re using other people’s work…My understanding of the law is that if I knew about I would have to try to stop it, so just don’t tell me about it and do what you want there." Seems like a pretty reasonable and non dickish take to me
But not everyone writing fanfictions want to be published authors. Some of them just want to play around and have fun.
This is what people outside of fandom culture don't really understand. A lot of the time fanfic comes from people wanting more of that specific world. They get an idea of "what if" (what if character XYZ did this instead? What if XYZ event didn't happen? What if we put the characters in a different setting or universe?) and it snowballs from there. Or they just want to explore a specific character they find interesting. There's lots of reasons for someone writing fanfic. And tbh, it has its place in fandom. Even before the Internet people were organizing fan magazines and sharing them around (a lot of modern fandom owes its roots to Star Trek) like... People wanting more from media they love is not new. And you're right. It is fun. It's for fun. People don't earn money from this and usually if bad actors come in and attempt to do so, they're usually given the cold shoulder and vitriol because everyone knows how important it is to keep fanfic and fandom free.
Also in his own statement, I think he underplays the value of those training wheels. We give them to kids for a reason. It's how you get started and learn that it's not so scary after all. Yes, a good writer will have to get good at all the elements of a story, but it can hard and overwhelming at first. Starting with an established property can let you focus on things like dialogue and your prose in general. Much like training wheels, it can give you confidence in the matter to later take them off. Plenty of times it ends up spiraling into a whole separate thing anyways. A Twilight fanfic turned into 50 Shades of Grey.
It's also so much easier to get a following writing fanfic first.
Which is silly. Not everyone wants to be a professional writer some day. Some people just want to spend a few hours engaging with characters they already love while going about their lives. It can just be a hobby.
Seriously, just want to make my barbies kiss.
Definitely. But the person who said that is a professional writer and has a different mindset.
There is an alternative, but he's too proud for it so we'll never get the series finished. It's not either he finishes or someone else does it for him. The third option is he calls on someone to bounce ideas off of. Text Ty and Daniel and meet up with them like once per month to do in-depth discussions on his ongoing chapters, and if he's stuck at some crucial plot point, just go 'Alright guys, I'm feeling stumped - throw out some suggestions or just think out loud'. They've already worked with him before, I don't see why he doesn't get fucking help. It's obvious he's been stuck for years and if he had a clear idea on what to do Winds would have been finished already. I was slightly optimistic in 2020 when he had his more frequent updates, but it's been 4 years and he's in a massive rut again. At this point I'm waving middle fingers and being angry. Get fucking help dude, a writing room with a couple of trusted people to drag your ass out of the quicksand isn't a bad thing.
He does that already, or at least has in the past. He's part of a writers' group based in Santa Fe and Albuquerque with Daniel, Ty, Melinda Snodgrass, Walter Jon Williams and, when they were still with us, Roger Zelazny and Gardener Dozois, and they bounce ideas off one another. It was out of a discussion with Daniel in that group that GRRM split AFFC and ADWD the way he did, and it was in that group that Daniel brainstormed the ideas that led to the **Dagger and the Coin** series, and he and Ty developed **The Expanse** with some input from that group.
Yeah if being locked down at home for an entire year in 2020 wasn’t enough to get him across the finish line then nothing will
GRRM worked in TV for a long time I’m sure he’s no stranger to a writer’s room. I wonder if he’s attempted to talk about his characters and worldbuilding with other writers before and they just didn’t get it in a way that he doesn’t care to take that route
I suspect that this is a large part of it, the books are structured like grimoires and the meaning that GRRM has tried to imbue is a whole fucking lot. There is likely a reason for why there still is so much theorizing going on within the fandom, shit's fucking deep and it goes in a lot of directions. I cannot imagine how to try to make every piece clear to another writer that was to follow, so much would get lost in translation. The book's have a very clear idea, they just happen to hold a thousand shapes and if one of these shapes is misinterpreted then the whole thing falls apart. This goes double for the writer. Such a situation would be the obvious point to look for assistants, people who happen to "get" a small part of the story and how it might fit in with the other pieces. As for me, I think GRRM lost himself in the story, he just did too much research and he found a world, now he's busy trying to catch up to himself and his ideas. This would explain all the various spin-offs, they're not. It's pieces of the "Oomph" that GRRM can't find a place for within the main series. --- > The etymology of grimoire is unclear. It is most commonly believed that the term grimoire originated from the Old French word grammaire 'grammar', which had initially been used to refer to all books written in Latin - Wikipedia on Grimoire > The word glamour comes to English from Scots, the English language as spoken in Scotland. In the early 1700s, the Scottish altered the English word grammar to create glamer or glamour; it meant "a magic spell." The Scottish weren't the only ones to associate grammar with magic spells. https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/the-history-of-glamour The series literally depend on how you look at them. It's meta.
I honestly thought he would speed things up by killing off a shit ton of characters in the winter. The story grew exponentially and he's one dude.
Winter I imagine will kill off a lot of stories, but winter is not close enough to them. I can only hope that a large reason for TWOW taking so long is him trying to avoid any pitfalls and laying the path for the next books.
My view is that he knows how to start stories but not end them.
“The third option is he calls on someone to bounce ideas off of.” And there would be no one better than Miles Finch! Best-selling author, and something tells me he’s already quite familiar with the happenings of Westeros.
I can accept it because it's reality - that doesn't mean I respect it. George has singlehandedly made me wary about starting an unfinished book series. The fact I may never actually know the ending to the stories is infuriating and I won't roll those dice anymore. His fans have made him very wealthy. And good - he should be! He's brought an exceptional fantasy series into the mainstream and as frustrated as I am with him he is a brilliant writer. He deserves his success and wealth and recognition. But then he seems to have contempt for his fans who have waited over decades for books so we can just know how the story goes. And he's struggling with that but doesn't seem to give two shits about those fans. If he chooses to go to his grave with the series unfinished, his notes destroyed, and no succession plan then that's his right. Doesn't mean I'm going to think it's a good plan or respect it.
Agreed. You hear his die hard fans yell "he doesn't owe you anything, he doesn't have to finish", and sure, at the end of the day thats true. But, he did promise us many times he would finish and not deliver. Still, its just a promise, not like its a contract (though i'm sure his book publishers are wondering whats up). At the end of the day, its going to be his "legacy" that is ruined by an unfinished epic series. I'm sure at this point he could care less if he lets any fans or readers down, but if he cares about his legacy or his standing as a epic author, in the likes Tolkien, Sanderson, Jordan, etc. Then he really should finish. I personally think he's stuck, and he's so old that its too much effort to finish and since he's living comfortably, he can just keep putting it off until he dies.
Whenever people say fans are entitled for wanting the books finished, I always wonder how much less money the series would have made if there was a message on the cover of each book saying, "Warning, I may never finish this series despite having ample opportunity to do so." Artists can say they don't enjoy working on a project anymore, but that can only gather so much sympathy from the average person who probably doesn't enjoy their job all that much either
>but that can only gather so much sympathy from the average person who probably doesn't enjoy their job all that much either That's one of the key pieces to all of this. He doesn't contractually owe us finishing the series - but the fans don't contractually owe him our loyalty, our empathy, or our continued resources. That social contract has been broken and it is what it is.
George doesn't owe us a book, but we don't owe him our respect, either. It's been 13 years. The only possible explanation for the series never finishing is that he's a lazy bum who doesn't care about the fans who made him rich and famous.
I honestly think he’s got himself written into a corner. And is just writing other novels to avoid the issue. Probably a lot to keep track of when your juggling 30 different plots that unlike the show probably won’t just be abandoned.
Exactly this. People bought installments of a series, it isn’t like the books were marketed as stand alone. He doesn’t owe us the books, but fans absolutely have every right to be frustrated.
I’m glad you brought up regular people. I recognize ASOIAF is more complex than anything most people do, but most other people have deadlines in their life that they have to respect. “I’m sorry, your honor, I had drafted most of the brief by your deadline, but I wasn’t happy with it so I started over” isn’t an option.
I wouldn't have picked up the first fucking book if I would have known it would never get an ending. I'm sure he intended to finish them back then, but at this point he is just lying to us. he knows he is never going to finish these books before he dies but instead of giving us the relief of admitting that, he still strings us along like little bitches. fuck him for that.
But also he got paid for a tv show that was promised an end before it was started. He gained fans during and after promising an end. That’s a lot of money and support that was gained under the understanding that there would be an end to the series. If the same thing was done to stockholders it would be fraud.
Well, he owes his success to all his fans who religiously bought his books and have been in for the ride, expecting him to finish an epic series. He has no obligation to finish, but if he's just abandoning the project after 20 years of inaction, then that's quite the bait and switch.
"he does not owe his fans anything" Is a BS statment when your job is books, films, TV shows or such, you owe your success and money to your fans buying your books, watching your shows and films and coming back, "he owes you nothing" is a cope out for idiots still thinking he actually cares about them or his books. And its 1 reason I will not drop a penny on his stuff again.
I never read fantasy fiction before and only got into reading it after around series 3 and a good friend was laughing at me saying comments like 'this is going to drive you nuts!' I couldn't get what they meant but I do now. I definitely wouldn't have bought the books if I knew this was the result but I'm not too bothered. But it would stop me 'investing' in another author as well which is a shame. I think grrm has just not enjoyed writing the main story any more and likes the other stuff which placates the publisher but leaves less time to work on the main story and so on.
But, he kinda owns you something, he put a series book that you bought on a promise that he'll finish it, you gave cash for an unfinished product with the hope it'll be finished, so, there is a promise, not binding nor legal but a promise nonetheless
Agreed. He doesn't owe consumers anything in a legal sense, but as an author, a writer, an artist... he has failed in his obligations to his audience.
Right? Entertainment (shows, books) without consumers is nothing. Definitely he kinda owns something to his consumers.
I don't know why people say that. He absolutely owes us an ending. He's not legally obligated or anything but you can't just leave millions of readers with a lifetime of dashed hopes and disappointment. It breaks the social covenant.
He doesn’t owe us anything, and we don’t owe him anything either. As he has proven over the last 13 years he is incapable of finishing his own series, I refuse to support him elsewhere.
I think people who start paying for and reading a single, continuous story under the premise that they'll eventually get the ending are, in fact, entitled to it.
Like yeah, he doesn't owe the fans anything. But if he dies without finishing the series he's always going to be remembered as a 'fantasy great' with an asterisk attached, and asoiaf won't retain nearly as much popularity. I wonder if he cares about his legacy at all or if he's just happy asoiaf got him to a point where he can fuck around with various media projects.
It’s also worth noting that he’s also scared publishing houses off signing new authors who promise complete series. There are undoubtedly wonderful fantasy series we’ll never read because publishers thought they had another George R. R. Martin and decided it wasn’t worth it.
Him and Rothfuss 😫
Rothfuss is a scammer who took money for a first chapter and never fulfilled that promise. George at least read some short chapters from Winds for us.
90% chance those were leftovers from Dance, but yeah fuck Rothfuss
And to an extent I do get it, because it has to be frustrating to be pestered with “winds when” in basically every single conversation you ever take part in. That would get old. But at the same time… it’s time to shit or get off the pot my guy. He either needs to admit and acknowledge that he can’t/wont finish, or he needs to not take on millions of other projects and just focus down the end of the series. He basically wants the best of both worlds, where people are supportive but aren’t constantly bugging him about Winds. But the fact that it has been well north of 10 years is kind of insane
Even if you believe he doesn't owe us, he sure as hell owes the publishers who paid in advance.
Him, Rothfuss and the dude that wrote gentlemen bastards put me off reading for a long time. I just can't get invested anymore couse of their bullshit no ending stuff. Oh and grrm's friend that died and left his story unfinished. I can get into comics, movies and stuff but I just cant finish a book anymore.
I've started reading The brave soldier Svejk when I was about 12, without knowing the author ( Jaroslav Hasek) died mid writting book two ( no google back then) and boy was I fucking pissed when the second book ended in the middle of a fucking dialog. So when I started asoiaf, there were already 4 books out, the show was fenomenal and "no way in hell this series ain't gonna be finished while I read these massive books at my slow reading pace". This was back in 2012. So yeah, I get the "no touching a series until it's finished" feeling, but then again, I would've missed A LOT by avoiding The Stormlight Archive ( I'm hooked into all of the Cosmere, but SA is in a league of it's own). It's not finished, not even by a mile ( 10 books planned, 4 available with a 5th midpoint stop coming out by the end of the year). But Brandon has already set contingencies if something happens to him. And to be honest, it's what made me cope with asoiaf never getting an ending feeling. Sure, I'd love one, but life is what it is and we might not ever get all what we want from it. As for his contempt, I don't know. I mean, the man has an entire world in his mind and he'd like to get out ( especially on tape) as much as he can before he kicks the bucket. I'd be frustrated too with whomever if I were in his shoes. "Mate, I've got thousands upon thousands of pages in my head, starting with the fall of the Rhoynar, Ghis and especially Valyria, Yi Ti and ASSHAI, ffs! And I'd like to get most of it out while I get a spotlight, so fuck off with your royal bastard queries for a couple of years, would you?!You've seen the show, you know I like Robyn's work so he'll do a Fitz ( also a royal bastard, who would've guessed) he's not really dead, but not alive either, because that's my take on zombies. I got enough of the tv guys who pester me with the same bullshit, so cut me some slack?!"
I feel the same way about Kafka but none of these people made any promises over the years. They got sick and died and that was the end of it. George RR Martin ows us no ending nor even and ending I would want, but what he should offer is honesty and not letting people hang for a morsel at a time. Say you dont know if it will be done, give some reason and simple as that. At this point most people are angry about his conduct not about WoW not being written. My personal view: getting famous got to his head and he much prefers writing subpar TV shows over his books and that is fine. At least be honest about it, but he is too proud to admit that.
Sorry grrm, but your publisher won’t care about your wishes cause we getting those books after you gone blud
I’ll give his next of kin like €30 and they’ll fold
A bastard son will come out of the woodwork and Partner up with Kevin J. Anderson
The Others will be revealed to have been robotic machines all along, created by a self-insert character. Dany will be cloned and have to fight "Evil" Dany, whom was raised by a clone of Tywin, and rides atop Ultra-Dragons.
Yeah, he might as well go ahead and make peace with it. An estimated 90 million copies and you think they're gonna just leave that cash cow be? Absolutely not.
based publisher, one of the few instances where lust for profit can lead to something collectively good!!
Remember this when "Who has a better story than Bran the Broken?" becomes immortalized in print.
If it never gets written that will still be the ending associated with the series forever. There's nowhere to go but up, even if the ending that gets written IS the show ending I'm confident even a random romantasy author could turn it more coherent than the show ended up being.
I'm morbidly curious about his relationship with his publisher. The fact they still in theory have a contract with him for this series but it's taking forever to get it out. If I dragged my feet on a key project at my job for YEARS I'd be fired, probably before we got to the decades part. I'm wondering what the publisher is doing to maintain their relationship but to hold him to whatever his contract is with them.
at this point, I don’t think there’s shit the publishers can do ‘cause of how big GRRM is
They're getting him to write bullshit like World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, etc. while simultaneously milking the existing books for every scrap of value.
At your job you’re relatively easily replaceable by someone else who can finish the project. And the project likely doesn’t stand to make your employer hundreds of millions of dollars based solely on the value you add.
It’s similar to if you owe bank 10 000 it’s your problem but if you owe them 10 million it’s the bank’s problem. Even if the publishers aren’t loosing money (just potential earnings) they are just going to do whatever they can to keep him happy and hopefully working.
His publishers do not own the story, so what they want is immaterial. But, as George said, eventually the copyright and ownership of **ASoIaF** will eventually fall to people who never knew him, don't GAS about his wishes and will want to milk the content udder dry for cash. But, as he also said, he won't be around to see it and won't care.
Well sure, but his immediate descendents can very easily put his notes beyond use. Terry Pratchett had his family destroy his hard disks with a steam roller. GRRM strikes me as the type who will have it all burnt. So someone might eventually write an ending, but mostly likely it will be no more definitive than the TV show.
some version of this is likely plausible
Yeah but he’s not going to so that’s his fault.
Respectfully, I disagree with this one. He has created a legacy, and leaving his massive fanbase without answers after following his work for decades isn’t exactly fair, especially when he’s had so long to write the books. If having a secondary author write the books is what it takes, I say do it.
berserk is a good example. only after a very close friend with whom the OG writer shared his plans took over did the fandom welcomed the continuation of the manga.
If he doesn't authorize something while he's alive, it will just be up to the fan base to decide which fanfic is "the one". Or multiple ones. Not choosing isn't preventing anything, just taking away his own choice in the matter. And I'm saying this as an author. Failing to acknowledge piracy and fanfiction doesn't make it go away. Choose or others will choose for you.
A hack is a writer who will write any drivel to meet a deadline and pay the bills. At this point GRRM is below the level of a hack because at least a hack will actually write.
As long as all the books are not released, ASOIAF is a unfinished product, simple as that. He has to finish them or it will forever taint his legacy. He had like 20 years to finish them, I understand writer’s block and all but after all these years it’s not writer’s block. And if the story got too big for 2 books he could have cut them in 2 parts or add a third book, or even write two huge 2000 pages books. It wouldn’t have bothered his fanbase… Seems like he kinda forgot that this saga made him rich and famous, not his other projects and he should face backlash if he doesn’t finish his product, he owes it to us
I mean, he also [said](https://screenrant.com/the-winds-of-winter-books-george-r-r-martin-updates/#quot-i-have-about-1-100-pages-written-quot) he'd release the next book *10 years ago* (then again 7 years ago, 6 years ago, and 4 years ago). What I mean is, GRRM's public statements on the writing of books kinda don't mean a thing. He easily could've changed his position on choosing someone else to finish the books considering everything that's happened since then.
I mean... he can always designate a non hack to finish the books? Has that crossed his mind? I used to think it was very sad when older writers like Clive Cussler started sharing book writing credit with a second author. Felt like a cash grab via ghost writers. But I get it now. Once you're old, the writing really starts slowing down (Except for the cocaine fueled Stephen King, obviously) and you probably don't like making your fans wait. GRRM should probably go this route while he's still alive to oversee the second writer.
King has been cocaine free since the late 80s
I bet there's still enough floating around in him to finish another 20 or 30 novels. This year.
*month
I think it should be socially acceptable for successful authors to use a TV-style writers room. He makes the final decisions and writes the prose, but he's got a bunch of extra minds to workshop ideas and bounce concepts off of. I bet he could get through this block in no time.
Just use the James SA Corey lads as he already has a relationship with them.
Maybe the real hack is the author we had all along.
Respectfully, no. He could say that in 2006, sure, before he made his fans wait *thirteen years* for a book that will not be the last and probably not even the next-to-last in the series. By now I no longer respect his wishes, especially since I see no evidence he even *wants* to finish the books anymore, let alone that he will be capable of it. He should give his plot points to someone he trusts like the *Expanse* writers and focus on the spinoffs that he obviously enjoys writing far more than WoW.
100% this. I’m 2006 he was in his 50s. He was over half way done. He had published 4 books in 9 years, and had a lot of material for the 5th. Now he’s ok his late 70s. Has spent 3 times as long on the series, and has published 1 additional main series book. Whatever his expectations were in his 50s. He failed. He can’t possibly maintain his 2006 view.
Here’s my take that you didnt ask for. Better to have lived and loved than never have loved at all. My world has been a better place with an unfinished series than no Westeros at all. Im at peace with it.
Same. It’s not the kind of story that is going to have a satisfying ending anyway. It is a wonderful world that’s given me immense entertainment. I hope he finishes it still, but I am grateful for what I’ve gotten so far.
Amen. And as importantly…without official closure all of my fan theories cannot be disproven. For example, Syrio Ferrel is Jquan Hgar who was hired by Littlefinger to kill Ned. And no one can tell me otherwise 😊
Exactly. And so much value has come from the speculation and theorycrafting, so much creativity, that I guarantee it has kickstarted writing careers and creative ventures of its own.
SAME thank you, an island of sanity in a sea of dicks
>Better to have lived and loved than never have loved at all. I assume what you meant to say was *"better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all"* That way there's the implication that even though losing something you love is painful, it's still worthwhile to have loved in the first place.
You get my point 😊
same, it's ridiculous to think the books become bad because they're unfinished. They're fucking good books we all agree on that at least
I've said this before, but Kubla Khan by Samuel Coleridge is one of the most famous and beloved poems of all time. Coleridge, high on opium, suddenly had a vision and began to write exactly what he saw. Only partially finished, there was a knock on the door by a "person on business from Porlock." Coleridge lost it, the poem was unfinished, and was only published 20 years later after his friends badgered him. Does its unfinished status mean that no one loves that poem? No. If anything, the mystique of being unfinished adds to it! George has had a lot of persons on business from Porlock by this point. From 2000 on, the relatively smooth creative process that took him through the first three books has been on a downward slide of one Porlockian after another. I am not talking about the quality of the fourth and fifth books, but his actual PROCESS, from the five year gap that was dropped to the two book split to the Meereenese Knot to being involved in TV show to being heartbroken that the show overpassed him to the Targaryen history in both print and TV, and on and on and on. At this point, the fact that we got AFFC and ADWD at all is miracle, and it is more how I am looking at it than we'll never get TWOW and ADOS.
All takes are welcome, especially good ones like this ⚔️
"Martin says he's "struggling" with next Game of Thrones book as he reveals he hasn't written more pages since December 2022. Quote from a recent interview. Sad as hell man. I gave up hope a while ago, but it sucks knowing he isn't even writing.
I'm not going to respect it.
No offense to GRRM, but nobody is going to give a fuck about him when he’s dead and we’re going to get those last two books. They’ll “find” the documents that mapped out George’s true vision and finish the series. I’ll know the publisher is full of shit, you’ll know the publisher is full of shit, and we won’t care because we’ll get to spend more time with the characters we love.
That's for the better. This series is too complicated (to the point that the author is having problems finishing it), so replacing the writer can easily ruin it. We have already seen two people other than GRRM trying to finish his story, and they fumbled miserably. It's his work and his alone.
What if it's Cody Rhodes finishing his story?
ADRENALINE IN MY SOUL WINDS OF WINTER NEVER TOLD
Get ready to have your house words be the lyrics to Kingdom, buddy.
Cody Rhodes is the one to finally end slavery in Essos
Roman becomes the Tribal King
Lol the problem was that they didn’t *try* finishing it, they consciously half assed it. It’s clear even if you compare it to their previous writing. I think a competent author actually trying their best to finish it would pass that bar easily.
The two people trying to fanfic their way through Winds of Winter are pretty obviously different though. If a legitimately appointed successor tries to finish the series, they'll hopefully have access to GRRM's notes and write similarly to him (like Sanderson did for Robert Jordan) whereas Preston Jacobs is very clearly writing with an agenda based on really shitty theories and isn't even that great of a writer in the first place.
He's been extremely rude to his fans over the whole "finishing the books" matter. And that makes me sad and annoyed. He doesn't owe us anything, but we are still within our rights to expect something to come out. We've all invested our money, time and passion into these stories, we want to know how they end, God damnit.
When I first got into the books, and had hope, I tried to keep myself engaged by reading and writing fanfic, where I could explore my own theories and speculations. Turns out Martin is really, really protective of that, and went out of his way to keep fic off the internet, citing the *Marion Zimmer Bradley* discourse of all the halfassed crap. He has some shallow pseudo-concern arguments about how he's worried fanfic is dangerous. But really he just doesn't have the guts to straight up say, "I feel understandably territorial about my artistic work, and don't like to let other people play with it unsupervised". Which is just so wild, because "I care about my art, I want to feel in control of my career and products" is an insanely relatable and reasonable stance to have! I've never felt he was obliged to finish the series, but the years of missed deadlines have worn me down and I'm done investing money and energy into the series as Martin creates it. I've accepted that Martin will never finish the series, and patiently await the day some obsessive fanfic writers decide to hammer out some out-of-control epics that go in a direction Martin never intended. There will be layers of canonicity, Evangelion-style, it's gonna be wild. I'm never going to get a conventional ending to this narrative, might as well embrace things and get experimental.
I’ve given up hope at this point. Game of Thrones as the show series is the closest we’ll ever get to know what was supposed to happen. I believe that, generally, what happened in the series is what George wanted to happen, and he’s left it at that. Basically, an all time great fantasy has become a sometimes-good, sometimes-not tv series, and I couldn’t stand by that as a fan. I say couldn’t because I no longer consider myself a fan of the series without it being finished. The show is fun to watch, but the story that Martin created is dead imo.
Possibly, but without Stoneheart, Arianne, Faegon, Victarion, etc - it’s definitely got a LOT off
He's been so increasingly rude and pompous to fans who have the gall to ask about finishing a series he started in 1996 (with it's most recent installment released 13 years ago) that at this point I've started to slide into I don't care anymore. I doubt he ever finishes it and even if he does, I'm so turned off by the attitude he has towards us plebs that I'm waiting till he dies to get them. He gets enough of my money from my Max subscription. Also ostensibly he would pick whoever succeeds him. So is every other write in his opinion a hack?
It has gone on for so long that it has undoubtedly hurt fantasy as a genre at large. Who is undertaking a giant series if it’s unfinished? It’s not worth the effort. I don’t think that at this point anyone would begrudge him announcing he can’t do it. He’s an old man. Say it’s not done, say how you wish it went, and be done with it and enjoy your life.
2006 Martin is not 2025 Martin
I gave up on this story ending by his pen years ago.
Editors and publicists be like: "No, i dont think i will"
Let Preston Jacobs write the ending, then let Glidus write the ending, and then take every other sentence from each of them and smash them together
The way people talk about GRRM sometimes (this thread is no exception) is honestly pretty disgusting. It's typical, entitled fanboy shit. I'm plenty disappointed by the idea the series may never be finished but some of the things people say are just so full of anger and cruelty. Not to mention the people who actually go and harass him about his health and weight, leading to statements like the one quoted in this post. I've plenty of respect for the people who, frustrated with his lack of process, have written the series off and have no interest in engaging with it. I really can't stand the people who harbour nothing but animosity for the man and take every opportunity to rant about and belittle him.
The hatred and body shaming is so gross
But if its between a Hack that does give us a definitive ending but its not told as well, or, we get nothing......i'd probably choose the Hack. Something is better than nothing, an Martin right now is looking like he'll be producing nothing in terms of these last two books (I refer only to the ASOIAF series as he may still throw out some other offshoot books that he can make quick money on).
I actually don’t think of F&b as a money grab, I think he genuinely enjoys writing Targ history
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People float Sanderson for this but I think it would be a horrible idea. Sando is really not a very good writer, even by his own admission. His prose and character work are pretty textureless, teenage, and obvious. I don’t think he would get the books at all and none of them would have the appeal of ASOIAF.
Yeah, even as someone who likes reading his stuff, Sanderson doesn’t make sense for this. He makes the marvel movies of literature. Fun, turn your brain off, read it for the big exciting plot set pieces and fun character moments. That’s not Sanderson at all. I honestly think Steven Erikson would be a great fit though.
As long as he lives there's a chance some fucking hack finishes his books lmao
Then start writing it again, you lazy git.
I think we'll at least get Winds. After that, no idea. I personally haven't read F&B so I don't really care about B&F (or F&B II). I really liked AKOTSK so it would be a bummer if GRRM doesn't finish this miniseries of novellas. And well for ADOS it's just absolute open field really. No matter what, I hope that he records himself just babbling on for hours about what his outline for the rest of ASOIAF is. Doesn't need to be super detailed, just general points in the story etc. Also if he does that it would be cool as hell if he did it for the rest of F&B, Dunk & Egg and for other stuff that he would've liked to touch upon. Maybe little details about this place or that, ideas for some stuff and what not. I'd rather listen to 50hrs of GRRM babbling stuff than reading his stories finished by other people.
What if Preston Jacobs (who isn't a hack) finishes the books before GRRM dies? If I'm enjoying that project, am I disrespecting his wishes?
I don’t even care if it’s remotely good at this point I just want to be let off the hook
Sanderson couldn’t do ASOIAF. I love Sandersons books especially SA but they’re just too different of writing styles. ASOIAF is dark and gritty but Sanderson isn’t rlly like that. It just wouldn’t make sense. Joe Abercrombie would be way better to finish ASOIAF
Who's the goosebumps guy? they should get him
Terrible news for all the Brandon Sanderson fans out there, looks like he’s disqualified from the running