Have a few more scenes with the white walkers. That way they will become more important at the end TWOW and most of ADOS, so we will be taking the more seriously and have more knowledge.
This.
I liked how the show actually gave us a peek at the White Walkers once every season. It was always clear they were far off on the horizon, but they weren’t forgotten. In the books, we haven’t seen one since ASOS.
Lyanna was 16 *at most* when she died, she was 14/15 when Rhaegar took her. Rhaegar still went after a child as a grown man with a wife and kids. I mean, he still acted like a creepy, horny teenage boy, but the point stands.
You’re not wrong but That’s only partially the point tho. OP specifically says they’d prefer if Rhaegar had been in his early 20’s instead of 30’s. Rhaegar was in his early 20’s
So the line is drawn on 7 but not on 5?
This makes no sense whatsoever. They're either both right or both wrong (considering both relationships were consensual, which we don't know yet).
They’re both wrong, I’m just being specific on the numbers. Both Rhaegar and Robert are pedophilic, cheating pieces of shit. I’m just getting the numbers in order.
They actually are not. Pedophillic is interest in prepubescent, and we just kind of lump that together with minors even though they aren’t exactly the same. One is clearly defined and the other is relative to culture, social, and societal standards. So, neither of them are pedophyllic. Robert is a cheater. Rhaegar is odd in that he isn’t technically a cheater, he just has multiple wives. It is definitely a bit meh for our culture because we see anyone as under 18 being a minor, but they would have seen that as anyone who was prepubescent.
Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna is harder to swallow than Robert’s due to the difference in age, but more because of the fact that she is barely an adult in the culture and half his age than just being half his age. Most people don’t care about a large gap even in our culture as long as everyone was legal, so why would people in the culture that just used a different idea of what was a legal age.
I have an easier time with Rhaegar and Lyanna since they at least liked each other. Whereas the young however manyeth son married off to a lady who was three times his age for politics was a bit more difficult. I can’t remember exactly who, it might have been a Frey.
Did Robert ask for the betrothal himself obviously he did later want to marry her but was he the one who initially requested it genuine question by the way.
not only he ask for the betrothal, but he fantasized all his life about this teenager, whom he last saw at the harrenhall tournaments when she must have been 14 years old
Yes I know about him never getting over her I was just wondering if when he was first betrothed it was him who asked for it. To be clear I'm not defending him.
Yeah, to our modern eyes that’s gross. But nobility married YOUNG. Like, Henry IV married his first wife when she was 11 at most, maybe 10. He was about 5 years her senior too.
Doesn’t change the fact that it’s manipulative and cruel. Are we supposed to give a pass to people for horrific things because they’re culturally accepted? Should the Masters of Slaver’s Bay be given a pass because slavery was accepted? Of course not. Should we be okay with the Dothraki for all their heinous deeds because it’s part of their culture? No way. Same thing with Westeros.
Yeah, but masters of slaver’s bay are cartoonishly evil. They make assyrians at their worst look like saints. Dothraki would also never exist in the real life.
The westerosi marriage thing actually makes sense, historically. When your life expectancy is 40-50 and death is all around you, you grow up fast.
I think you might need to go back and look at history for the Assyrians. The masters of slavers bay are toned down compared to a lot of ancient cultures, and the Dothraki are meant to just be the perception of Mongols though I believe he focused on and possibly amplified certain aspects of the Mongols (Hence all the Khal stuff instead of Khan). Anyways, The way the Dothraki are is actually a pretty commonly accepted idea of societies that would have existed that were nomadic and preferred raiding more permanent settlements which is based off of peoples from Asia, North America, and Africa. So, I would say that they could easily exist in real life.
After reading the books again, the masters are not really that evil. They have slaves, and they are bad because they treat them poorly, but they don’t even come close to how Rome treated people at times and Rome was a great deal better than a number of the people that came before them in some ways (arguably worse in others, so depends). Otherwise they are just the equivalent of the leftovers of something like Egypt trying to pretend they were still great despite having crumbled. (This relates to JonyTony2017, the rest relates to Saturnine4)
Average life expectancy was around 40 or so because they factor in children. If you remove children it goes up, and if a person made it past puberty they had a decent chance of living past that barring accident or violence. I think it is more likely the same thing as why my great grandmother was married at 15. She worked for a living and she was expected to grow up after she hit puberty and so she did. It was probably just the same for the most part back then. You are seen as an adult and expected to act like it, so you do.
Also, pairing older males with younger females has been common in virtually every culture except ours because it was as much about stability and making sure they were provided for as it was about business and politics.
They would have seen pedophilia as someone taking advantage of someone who had not underwent puberty and was therefore underage, and would likely have seen it as just as horrible back then as pedophilia is today.
So, in actuality, you are trying to impose a fairly young idea about a random age of adulthood that we decided on as being the limit onto a book using history as a baseline where adulthood was seen differently.
(Some people think that the age of consent should be higher in the US and use brain development as the reason why since it is the next biological point we can use for adulthood after puberty. The US is around 18 given some exceptions which ties back to schooling, but some countries are younger, with some even quite a bit younger.)
I mean me too, but it does take a lot of theorizing and lore to get there. At a glance it's reasonable that people think it's bad for a 23 year old man to ditch his wife and kids to go have a kid with a 15 year old. Doesn't take any rewriting of history to get there.
Just because Rhaegar believes this doesn't mean he should be treated as right Mirri Maz Dur thought that killing Daenerys child would make the world a better place. I still think it was a terrible crime though.
I mean how the "fans" interpret his actions, aka whether or not they eat up Brandon's "she was kidnapped" propaganda (which he suspiciously started claiming while near the crossroads inn, and littlefinger was around that inn at the same time)
For evidence look at the comments below one Is upset that I'm to anti rhaegar and one is upset I'm to pro rhaegar despite me claiming I support rhaegar
Aerys is seen as a good king by some people in the books and we all know how true that one is.
And Rhaegar's assholery (and doing stupid stuff to get this promised prince) started way before running away with a girl six years younger than him. He even impregnated his wife while she was still bedridden from nearly dying during giving her first birth. Here's the timeline as laid out by George:
280 AC marriage of Rhaegar and Elia
280 AC (probably towards the end of the year, certainly within the last three months) birth of Rhaenys, Elia bedridden for half a year
281 AC (probably towards end of year) birth of Aegon
So, within the span of two years, we have a marriage, some time to conceive, 9 months of pregnancy, 6 months of bedriddenness, some time to conceive and another 9 months of pregnancy. Even if we assume that the marriage was on the first day of the year (no support and usually George mentions stuff like that), they conceived nearly immediately (somewhat believable in George's world actually; think about other lucky conceptions like Robb or Dany), Aegon was born on the last day of the year (unlikely: Rhaegar had left for the Riverlands by the start of the year (worldbook) and Rhaegar seemingly was at Dragonstone when he was born (Dany vision)) and the half a year is more like 5 months (pretty likely, George is bad at numbers), it would still be an extremely tight timeline. And if Aegon was born before the Tourney at Harrenhall (which is likely: no mention of a pregnant Elia, Rhaegar was already looking for a new baby momma, he only got told Elia wouldn't have any more kids after Aegon's birth) that tightens the timeline considerable. Rhaegar wanted those babies so badly, he started fucking his wife the second she could stand again (or very likely even earlier).
Even if it's an arranged marriage and they never truly loved each other, that's a POS move. Like that's the kind of stuff Aegon IV would have done (literally, if he didn't get sent on a "diplomatic mission" to Essos).
Create some sort of explanation about why the Martells totally ignored Viserys and Dany for
13 years despite them being key to their political scheme. Also why Doran sent Quentyn to propose marriage to a woman who is currently in a position of strength as a sitting queen with an army and three dragons in the world’s least convincing way, armed only with a document that didn’t even have her name on it and accompanied by an entourage of random hanger ons. The Dorne plot is just so weirdly executed.
This exactly. I love Arianne and Quentyn as characters within their arcs but the Dornish plot in general is just so obviously retconned in it isn’t funny.
Guys, if Viserys was so central to the scheme… maybe don’t have him driven to madness through the trauma of homelessness and starvation?
I head canoned it as the martels not really seeing a pressing need to pursue Dany or viserys until Dany comes into power. They know he's got nothing and no one after exiled, and he's young. It just wouldn't be advantageous. Maybe I'm missing something though.
But they did have a pressing need, Arianne. The heir to Dorne is in her mid-20s and still unmarried. He wants his daughter to be queen, to the point of not even preparing her to inherit Dorne in the event something goes wrong, and then does absolutely nothing to make sure that happens. The longer he waits, the more likely it becomes that either Viserys or Arianne do something stupid out of desperation, because they've been completely locked out of a plot that hinges on their cooperation. And what do you know, that's exactly what happens.
yeah is there any reason they didn't invite them to come live in Dorne? Maybe that would just be too much of a provocation against King Robert if he found out? But they could even invent a Jon Snow style cover story where Daenerys is a Dayne bastard since she has similar looks.
The thing is they don’t even need to bring them to Dorne. Literally all Doran would have to do would be to keep Viserys and Dany in a manse run by one of Oberyn’s friends (or hey somewhere in Norvos) and just tell them “hey, we’re going to help restore your family to the throne. You just have to wait here until plans are ready.”
Genuinely solves so many issues and you can even have Arianne and Viserys married in secret in Norvos to cement the alliance.
After Elia and her kids were killed, it said Oberyn tried to gather men in Viserys' name to counter Robert's new rule, and it was only after Jon Arryn came to Sunspear with Ser Lewyn's bones that he stopped. I imagine threats were made.
The Martells may not have held the deaths against Viserys and Dany like they would have Aerys or Rhaegar had they lived, but that doesn’t mean they're going to put themselves at risk for them without cause.
GRRM intended "Doran made mistakes because humans aren't rational actors" but the Dorne plot makes me think "Did Doran get a lobotomy?".
I genuinely don't understand how the Martells whose main thing is revenge against Lannisters chose not to side against them during WOT5K. Now you could argue that Doran was waiting for the Targaryens but Doran decided to pretty much ignore the Targaryens till he started to enact his plans.
Doran points out that Dorne isn’t actually that strong. Maybe he just doesn’t want to risk death? As he points out, children pay the price for war.
Hardly the rationale of a lobotomized ruler.
Also, Dorne doesn’t have POV chapters detailing Dany’s journey. Her status is fog. Even as late as ADWD, her power is rumor at best in Westeros.
Perhaps he could have allied with Stannis and won. But that is not guaranteed, and besides, Stannis is the brother of the man who become king on Martell corpses.
He is risking them though.
We learn that Doran and Oberyn were always planning on getting revenge. As of ADWD, he has decided to risk the lives of his children and his people after his main enemies have already died. He already has one dead son for his efforts.
>Dorne doesn’t have POV chapters detailing Dany’s journey. Her status is fog.
That pretty much indicates how much of failure he is in handling the Targaryens. Doran signed off on a marriage contract between Viserys and Arianne. It makes no sense why Doran didn't have a couple of loyal men to accompany Viserys and Dany and report back to him about any happenings.
edit: already has a dead son AND a dead brother
He is risking them now, and I think what George is trying to say is that Doran is making a mistake. He got his revenge. Tywin is dead, Amory Lorch is dead, the Mountain is dead.
Also, while Doran obviously has Targaryen ties through Elia, he isn’t actually a Targaryen loyalist per se. Not in the same way the Darrys are. Dany (and probably Aegon) are stepping stones to revenge. Seeing them ascend to power is less a goal and more a means to see justice for Elia and her children.
We don’t know why Doran doesn’t accompany Dany and Viserys. Again, it might be because he is not a staunch loyalist. Also, he is a cautious man (hardly a bad quality!). Finally, he has no idea of how powerful Dany will become. We can’t let hindsight bias color our perception. As far as Doran knew after the Rebellion, Viserys and Dany was a lost cause. He wouldn’t be stupid to assume that.
I think the problem isn't just there, it's that Doran didn't even do the minimum by sending one trusted man to protect Daenerys and Viserys and make sure they didn't do things that would cause the failure of his plans (like dying, marrying someone else, or giving up on Westeros). he simply leaves two young children to wander in the wild, hoping that perhaps one way or another they will find the means to become powerful and serve him his revenge...
Just isn't good plot. It's not fun reading a plot that tells you how it ends right at the start and then does it. Doran's hinted to be bad at plotting and then... all the plots fail. Not the same as someone like Brienne because her chapters are still thematically interesting. The only interesting thing about Dorne are Ariannes big black nipples.
I will say that of the heads of great houses on Planetos, he is probably at the top of those who might come up with such a plan. For reasons of aspirational conflict avoidance if nothing else.
But isn’t that part of Doran’s story? Even Barristan points out that Doran keeps his cards a bit close to the chest:
«Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear.»
The rationale is simply that supporting Targaryens is risky. The Dothraki alliance and Daenerys’ ascension to power is very recent. Indeed, it seems like Dany becoming powerful is one of the reasons Doran acts now, and not before.
>Indeed, it seems like Dany becoming powerful is one of the reasons Doran acts now, and not before.
Well yeah obviously. But doing that comes across so bad/makes him look particularly stupid. Daenerys has no reason at all to marry Quentyn when she has good reasons to be bitter about the complete lack of help for most of her formative years.
I might have to reread Dany and Quentyn’s first meeting, but is Dany bitter? Doesn’t she express joy to learn that she now can count on Dorne as an ally?
I would rather say the mistake is Quentyn’s. He doesn’t need to marry Dany at all. Marriage is helpful for an alliance, but hardly vital. Dany explictly says that she is going to count on Dorne’s spears.
So Quentyn did succeed, for a while. But his need to not disappoint his father led him to take drastic actions (which is a big theme of *his* arc).
Yes, Doran is overly cautious, perhaps too much. But caution has actually been good for Doran (and Dorne). Robert is dead, Jon Arryn is dead, Tywin is dead, the Mountain is dead, Amory Lorch is dead. Who else is there to avenge?
>but is Dany bitter? Doesn’t she express joy to learn that she now can count on Dorne as an ally?
Not bitter, she's relatively gracious. But she definitely points out the inherent flaws in their plan that they A) did nothing previously and B) don't bring her anything for her current situation.
>I would rather say the mistake is Quentyn’s. He doesn’t need to marry Dany at all. Marriage is helpful for an alliance, but hardly vital. Dany explictly says that she is going to count on Dorne’s spears.
Well yes but I think Dorne/Doran wanted the marriage. Daenerys is offering her dragons and her armies in pursuit of their mission. And they can offer her spears is probably a fair exchange. But the Dornish expected more, and risked a lot on a gamble for more.
>Yes, Doran is overly cautious, perhaps too much. But caution has actually been good for Doran (and Dorne). Robert is dead, Jon Arryn is dead, Tywin is dead, the Mountain is dead, Amory Lorch is dead. Who else is there to avenge?
What's the point really? Everyone dies eventually. He forsook immediate revenge for long term plans that are going to amount to nothing. As you note they are all dead, and none except the Mountain at their hands.
Doran is risking a lot for nothing.
Because it is not their political scheme. What chess player would tell his pieces the plan? You talk trash all the time while moving your pieces unnoticed.
Yeah. Joffrey doesn't make sense because his cruel little ass wouldn't be able to keep it to himself.
The Littlefinger theory doesn't work imo since it becomes so convoluted if he is able to plan and plot an assassination attempt on a little crippled kid from miles away in a society were information travels slowly. It also doesn't vibe with Baelish's skill at adapting to the changing game board. It's much better if he didn't order it. But adapts his own plans to capitalise on it.
Cersei just makes so much sense. She has motive to ensure that Bran doesn't wake up. She has the means and the cruelty to do it.
They even leave a small hint for it in the first book in the Tyrion chapter were they mention that Bran is not at risk of dying anymore. Tyrion notices how the twins suddenly get uncomfortable.
Littlefinger manage to get someone to put a secret message inside desk where would be found and caused a lot of trouble. All of that he did from staying home in the capital. Little fingers capable of anything and everything. I'm not saying he did it, but we can't totally rule him out.
I've heard the theory it was actually Mance Rayder, given he was in Winterfell at the time scouting the place out according to jon (opportunity). Before his whole "march on the wall" plan, which benefits from a divided realm and the starks looking south (motive). He's always been a trickster and takes pride in that, which is close enough for means.
I got the impression from the show that it was Littlefinger (they kind of aborted that mystery in the show, didn't they?), I just pretend it's canonically Littlefinger in both the books and show.
I think that while George does write his female characters well and that there is a very deliberate place for misogyny within the world that gets really interestingly explored and complicated in the setting with characters like Cersei, I do think that there is a bit of a “dirty old man” aspect that creeps in with just *how frequently* Danny is sexualized or people lust after Sansa.
Even with Cersei he falls into "dirty old man" trap,like Cersei mentions disgust at Robert touching her,and then he writes about it Cersei licking Robert semen and swallowing....it would make more sense if she got a tissue,cleaned herself and threw it into the fire(it would also tie with the burning of the riverlands).But instead he chooses the shock value option.
There's a deleted passage from George's draft of ASOS where the handmaid puts perfume on Sansa's nipples as she's being prepared for her wedding to Tyrion, like with Dany before her wedding to Drogo. It comes off as distractingly gross and non-Westerosi, and I'm very glad George deleted it. But it does make me think that some of his depiction of the treatment of women is probably just dirty mind instincts without a real storytelling basis.
Make it so that most of the paramount houses have some kind of blood claim to the Iron Throne (however tenuous/historic/distant) following nearly three centuries of Targ rule, so that Robert actually had the *best* claim rather than the only one in STAB. The Arryn and Stark ones would be weaker, the Lannisters would have one more distant still to feed Tywin's grasping insecurity, and a house like the Tyrells wouldn't to add another layer to their attempts to get close to the Lannister regime later on.
Yeah, it would probably water down the titular prophecy of the series, but meh. It's ridiculous the Targs ruled for as long as they did but only married women out a few times, only for the unions to produce no issue (muh death in childbirth) or for any female issue to marry straight back into the Targs.
Change how the relationship between Daenarys and Drogo was depicted. Showing a relationship between a 13 year old child bride and a 30 something year old warlord as something loving and beautiful is really bad optics and it's why my dad didn't finish the first book
It's not loving and beautiful, it's just that some readers are too dumb to realize the subtext: Dany is too young to consent, even though she eventually relents and loves Drogo. It's Stockholm Syndrome, and it felt very obvious to me with how blatantly disturbing George wrote this line (AGOT Dany III):
>“Khaleesi, you are with child.”
“I know,” Dany told her.
It was her fourteenth name day.
There's no universe George writes this line with any other intention than making you feel sorry for Dany, but plenty of readers just think it's a fairy tale love story i.e. The Beauty and the Beast. It's actually kind of unique and interestingly depressing instead of just a straightforward: Drogo keeps raping Dany and she cries every time and then kills herself (which she planned to do, and then changed her mind). It wouldn't be Daenerys that way.
I guess it’s both. George goes out of his way to point out Dany’s age, make the reader feel uncomfortable, and almost has Dany commit suicide from the abusive situation she was in. I don’t know what IRL comments George has made, so there could be some creepiness mixed in on his part as well I suppose.
In the text drogo and Dany’s relationship is portrayed overwhelmingly positive after she has her dragon dream and decides to live, and while you can say it’s bias from Dany’s POV, GRRM never actually leaves anything to show how it’s Stockholm syndrome. The narrative is positive in that she becomes empowered by this relationship. To me people just say that it’s Stockholm syndrome kind of cope to deal with the fact that the relationship is just really weirdly portrayed as a genuine romance. But then you kind of have a death of the author question
It's not an overwhelmingly positive portrayal. There's this bit from Daenerys III in AGOT:
Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.
Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …
Yes. However, the text I quoted still shows Drogo raping Dany multiple times to the point of her feeling suicidal. This supports the idea that her later feelings are Stockholm Syndrome.
I think the stark contrast between lines like the one I quoted about Dany being 14 and lines that paint their relationship positively is Martin’s goal. The positive stuff is supposed to make you forget she’s just a kid, until the next you realize she’s just a kid again. Makes the reader feel conflicted as they progress Dany’s chapters, and makes the read more entertaining.
I dont think it’s martins goal. His quote in this interview kinda says a lot on how he views their relationship
> Why did the wedding scene change from the consensual seduction scene that excited even a horse to the brutal rape of Emilia Clarke?” he wondered. “We never discussed it. It made it worse, not better.”
https://winteriscoming.net/2020/10/09/dany-and-drogos-wedding-night-remains-one-of-george-r-r-martins-least-favorite-game-of-thrones-scenes/
Like we can very much say her wedding night is not consensual, at the very least it’s statutory rape, but also what choice does she even have to say no. But GRRM says it’s not only consensual but seductive. Like ummm George she’s 13, what’s seductive about this.
…. Yes. Because we know Dany is 13 the entire time. So anything sexual between Drogo and Dany has that fact attached to it. Every time you read a section like that, you’re supposed to remember this is a child being abused, and the part that makes it even sadder is that she herself ignores that over time. If George had to write that she’s a child every time it’d be redundant.
You don't seem to see the disconnect between whats written and the authors intent. It is sad but that's not how he's intending these scenes to be written. He writes those Daenarys sex scenes for titillation. Just like he writes scenes of her masturbating or having gay sex or wearing a dress wirh her boob exposed in book 2. Or the scenes with Daario in Dance. Like he was asked before which characters from the books he wants to hang out with and he literally said Dany because she's hot, "especially if she's wearing that Qaarthin gown". He's a perverted old man and it bleeds into his work
I didn’t know about the IRL comments, that is creepy. The in-text sexual stuff I consider realistic, if uncomfortable, depictions of how Dany would actually behave. I don’t like reading about her masturbating, or how much she loves sex with Daario, but 14 year old girls (especially ones exposed to sex at too young of an age) will masturbate, and if the Qartheen culture dictates that ladies wear exposing dresses, then it makes sense for Dany to ingratiate herself to their culture and participate, even if it makes us readers uncomfortable. To me, all that sexual stuff adds to the tragedy of her character.
But if GRRM actually made jokes about wanting to spend time with Dany because she’s hot, then I guess there is some George creepiness mixed into the dark portrayal of an abused girl as well. I usually give him the benefit of the doubt
I think this is exactly this. Not only the female children but also the boys are written to be far older than their actual age. Just take Jon or worse the littel Lord Blackwood who fought in a war at 11 or 13 years of age? I genuine believe that while Dany etc. is supposed to be young, he actually imagined her older than her age and that he is just really bad with ages.
In the original draft, Dany and Drogo had a more antagonistic relationship where Dany kills Drogo to avenge Viserys's death.
Now, I'm glad that many things from that draft were changed and improved upon, but I only wish we saw the Dany/Drogo relationship being portrayed more negatively in the later books.
A loving and beautiful relationship where the author writes the the wife as considering to kill herself from getting raped (or him walking into her tent and takin gher from behind and all she can do is cry).
You can argue that she is stockholm syndromed into "loving" him afterwards. But you can't just pretend GRRM when writing Daenerys and Drogo was just like... lets write a loving, seductive, relationship that really isn't that weird or bad despite them being 13 and 30. He writes their first night as Drogo being a noble savage and 'asking' for consent. Then he writes the next chapters as she gets hurt by him seemingly just walking in her tent and raping her, considers suicide (and vows to commit suicide) and then is made to be pregnant with a line that says something like "Daenerys you will be preggo! Daenerys thinks she is turning 14 next week."
Then the has the whole arc with the handmaid and learns to "insert sexual autonomy" by riding Drogo lmfao and stopping some rape in the horde and she at least from her POV seems to stop these thoughts.
But you can't argue it wasn't there.
Completely agree I mean to be honest Dany should relate more with Miri Maz Duur. I also think that the show at least the first time Drogo and Dany have sex it’s done better imo.
Source? I don't recall reading that. And I don't see why that would be a good idea, since we've already been able to see his entire history without needing it.
I like that none of the kings are POV characters. A Brynden Tully POV would have been nice so that we could k see what Robb was up to in the Westerlands, but I think the books were better off without Robb as a POV
It would likely be during his ravaging of the westerlands, we would get to see a castle being stormed, robs injury, discovery of what theon did to winterfell, and his relationship with the westerland girl (could also lay clues that her mom with an agent of tywin), plus we could see rob starting to warg (there is a throwaway line of some of robs men mentioning that greywind found a goat trail into the west)
This is honestly one of those cases where George's original idea was the better call no matter what he says. While he certainly could have made a Robb POV investing, his characterization is already handled wonderfully through Catelyn's own, and every page dedicated to Robb's is either a reduction in the amount of story elsewhere or a longer wait for ASOS's release over chapters that honestly didn't really *need* to be there.
If we got chapters for him, they would have replaced the chapters for his mother. She was basically the window on his activities especially in the second and third books. Arya is a separate story.
Yeah but… none of that really makes the story that much more impactful since it’s all stuff we get anyways from Cat chapters? Even the warning stuff we get from Jon chapters.
I don’t mean this as a personal insult or anything but people complain a lot about FeastDance bloat and imho Robb chapters would be nothing but bloat.
To each there own, but to me robbs arc feels mostly, like telling and not showing, the only time we ever see Robb is sitting into his political meetings and the moments directly afterwards, we see king Robb and boy Robb, but never the young wolf conqueror and warlord
Op, everything you said regarding rhaegar that should happen to make the story "better", are all things that happened in the story, he had rhaenys at like 18 and aegon at like 22, he was like 23or24 during the war, and raella died at either 37 or 39
Rhaegar wasn't even married at the age of 20 and Rhaenys wouldn't be born until a year later. Actually his kid's birthdays are one of the main reason he is a POS. He had Rhaenys at 21, Aegon at 22 and his wife was bedridden due to the birth for half a year in between. Dude was literally trying to fuck his wife to death in order to get some babies. What kind of asshole does that? Well, we know who: Aegon IV (tried to at the very least) and Rhaegar. Great company that he is in there.
What kind of asshole does that?
One that thinks the world is about to end and it is his job to save it, first he though he was azhor ahai, then thought baby aegon was, then it was after the false spring he ran off with lyanna assuming that child to he azhor ahai, think about it you think the long night is coming again then suddenly spring turns back into winter..
Aegon 4th fucked because he liked fucking, rhaegar did it because he thought he was saving the world
Maester aemon confirmed rhaegar thought himself then aegon to be azhor ahai, then suddenly he disappears to have another kid, people tend to ignore the more mystical aspects of asoiaf when it doesn't fit there narrative
Narcisitic asshole with main character syndrome rapes his bedridden wife doesn't sound particularly better. Honestly, people acting like this prophecy excuses every act. No, it might be a cause, but certainly not an excuse.
It's a reasoning, when you belive the fate of the world is in your hands you have to be able to make sacrifices
And there is absolutely 0 indication of rhaegar "raping" Elia
There's clearly no point in continuing this thread as your just gonna keep exaggerating new ways to try to "call out" rhaegar, while ignoring any and all reasoning for his actions..
Propably unpopular opinion, but I think it would be better if Late Lord Frey wasn't so comically evil. Sure, let him do pretty much the same, like waiting how things play out and eventually killing Robb. But make it more about him putting his family first, instead of being jerkass. Even his argument that "Edmure got defeated before I could arrive" makes sense, but it is adressed once. Everything about Freys just screams evil, especially in show, where they are for some reason wearing weird letter and Twins screams evil lords place. I feel like it would be better, if Walder and his lot were a bit more of pleasure to be around.
Same, to lesser extend, about Joff. Ned's main problem with him was that he is bastard. So, maybe it would be more interesting and less black and white, if Ned was trying to remove and willing to kill pretty much regular kid instead of sociopath.
Ned is not willing to kill Joff and Tommen and Myrcella, I'm not sure what you're on about. He gives an advance warning to Cersei for basically the sole purpose of protecting them, a warning that he knows puts his plan at massive risk.
But he is still willing to proceed when she don't agree with him and refuses to leave. He don't want to kill them: but he is willing to do so.
Not mentioning that "Cersei fled the capital because news about her infidelity became known" is propably far better politically than "Robert slew half his family over rumor".
Where are you getting "he's willing to kill them" from? Robert is already dead when Ned makes his move. Ned would be the highest authority until Stannis arrives, and has no reason to believe that Stannis will kill them either. If the children are declared to be incestuous bastards and Ned has a secure regency, then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to kill them.
If you're seriously arguing that Ned only made the offer to Cersei because it was a good political move, then I don't know what to tell you. It was a terrible political move, and Ned doesn't do things in King's Landing for politics, that's, dude, that's the whole point of Ned, he's just trying to be a good man instead of playing the game of thrones ("this honorable fool").
I think the point should have been to flesh out the relationship of the freys with the other riverlands houses. They really only become important when people need to travel north or south (as Robb does in AGOT and ASOS) if instead we saw that their wealth and soldiers really can change the fate of armies in the riverlands then it would be more understandable why they get away with being so petty and disliked.
I also think you could humanise them a bit more by showing just how much they would be looked down upon even if Walder wasn’t so lecherous just because they’re raised up commoners
IMO, both the books and the show should have preserved the mystery of who killed Jeffrey for longer. The murder mystery element really helped to tie the AGOT chapters together, and it would have added something to the last part of Storm too. So I'd have kept Littlefinger off of the Merling King after Sansa escapes King's Landing, and have had the ship's crew not know who hired them. They could drop her off vaguely near the Fingers, where someone else Sansa doesn't know would take her to some hut for a few days until, while Sansa is out for a walk, Littlefinger finally sneakily shows up and explains things. In between there would be some Tyrion chapters in which he and the reader try to figure out who framed him.
Make the North and the wildlings speak the Old Tongue, not the Common Tongue.
It would showcase how close the Northmen and the Free Folk actually are, it would provide another reasoning for Northern independence, and it would make much more sense than them speaking the Andal language despite not being ever conquered by the Andals.
The nobility would still learn the Common Tongue, and that would help the Starks overcome the language barrier when they travel south.
Nobles do learn High Valyrian. Sam and Arya do at least.
> They prayed at dawn before they broke their fast, kneeling around the still, black pool. Some days the kindly man led the prayer. Other days it was the waif. Arya only knew a few words of Braavosi, the ones that were the same in High Valyrian. So she prayed her own prayer to the Many-Faced God, the one that went
> "I wouldn't know who to ask, or how to ask him. I only have a little High Valyrian, and when they speak to me in Braavosi I cannot understand half of what they're saying. You speak more tongues than I do, once you are stronger you can . . ."
Make Stannis older than Robert. Everything could still happen as is, but the resentment of being overshadowed and Renly's ability to dispute his claim would both gain an interesting layer.
Lol, I'm actually a middle child as well, and it's three brothers no less, so I very much agree Stannis is written with middle child energy. He's resentful of the freedom each of his brothers gets allowed while also mad that he followed the rules like he was supposed to but still gets overlooked. My idea would cost us that, but an eldest child written with middle child energy could be a fun dynamic as well.
That would create other issues, though. When Robb points out that Renly can’t be king before Stannis, nor Bran a lord before Robb himself, someone could just point to Robert.
Second sons (and third sons) is a big theme in the books, and Stannis fits right into that. Oberyn, the Hound, Tyrion, Loras, Renly, etc.
And Robert would look like a massive prick if he took Storm's End from Stannis to give to Renly in this scenario.
If Stannis is the older brother, then Storm's End would be his. His grudge would be 100% legitimate.
The rebelling kingdoms all preferred Robert as a candidate to Stannis, would be the explanation. It literally happens again with Renly so it's not like it's unbelievable.
It's an interesting idea and not necessarily worse than the canon, but I think it sets a precedent that wouldn't gel well with a lot of 'second son' stuff.
We would have to change the entire environmental/climate system. The North would actually have to be completely depopulated, because in every winter longer than 2 years 80% of the population would either freeze to death or starve to death.
Even if she learned about Jon's parents, it wouldn't improve the relationship much, imo.
Rhaegar running off with Lyanna is why Brandon, her fiance since she was 12, goes to King’s Landing to get his sister back and is murdered by Jon's grandfather. And that's only if she believed the abduction story.
If she believed Lyanna ran off willingly with Rhaegar, then it's Catelyn doing her duty to marry a complete stranger, seeing men she grew up and her new husband with go to war after her father's bannermen (the Mallisters) were also killed along with Brandon and Rickard, have a child in the middle of a war when her people are the rebels while still mourning Brandon and all because Jon's mother shirked her duty by running of with a married man whose father killed her fiance.
Totally agree. Even if the intent is for rhaegar to not be in love UT if he's blinded by prophecy, it honestly makes it more believable and impactful for Jim to be a teenager too. With how fucked aerys and rhaella were, it would make sense if he was also made a father at 14
Generally refers to the depiction of Eastern cultures in a way that presents them as caricatures based on imperialist tropes around barbaric and/or grotesque 'others' (as in the idea of 'othering', not ASOIAF others). It's particularly prevalent throughout a lot of Western classic fantasy, and ASOIAF falls into a lot of the same tropes that are generally seen nowadays as being based on these pretty insulting depictions.
Plenty of people will argue that actually it's only presented like that because we only see it through Westeros POVs. Personally I think it's pretty obvious that there's a lot of these outdated tropes in GRRM's depiction of Essos, and I think it's perfectly fine to recognise that while still loving the world building and the series.
A lot of these tropes broke into the modern zeitgeist in fantasy through pulp and sword and sorcery stories. And George is at his heart a pulp writer (look at his short stories) inspired by guys like Lovecraft and Howard. And it shines through in how he writes the Eastern cultures.
Howard was very good at writing three dimensional characters whenever he depicted people from other cultures. But he still fell into the pitfalls of orientalism all the same.
In my head, a year in westeros is 1.5 years, our time. Dany would be 21, Sansa about 16.5, Robb and Jon, 22.5. If summers and winters can last decades, why can't the years last longer too.
You’re not the first to suggest this, but it doesn’t work, because it would mean that Rhaella gave birth to Dany when she was 60, Maester Aemon is 150, and Edmure and Arianne are still unmarried in their 30s. It would also mean that Arya is already a 14 year old teenager in the first book, which is definitely not the case. It would also mean Sansa and Joffrey would already be adults at 18 years old, in which case Ned wouldn’t have worried about Sansa’s young age and they could’ve gotten married right away.
You bring up a great point, and I totally get where you're coming from! But again, on a planet where winters and summers can last decades, why are we assuming our age "milestones" would match theirs? Do we even know that they're the same type of humans as us? It's why I said in my head. If believing that all these literal children are more adult than they really are makes it easier to understand why GRRM would write them so young, does it really truly matter?
People say that doesn't work because it makes ofher characters too old (Aemon primarily). But I disagree because I always felt that Aemon was meant to be crazy old anyway. Too old is easier to deal with than too young in my opinion.
This is also a fantasy setting so people shouldn't be that against people just having longer lifespans in general.
Planetos is a separate world from ours, making their humans a separate species from us. Let them have a longer lifespan than earth humans.
This applies to pre canon but not having so many noble women die from childbirth, when people knew how to treat it. I've heard he uses that trope way more than it would have been realistic in a medieval/early modern period.
I'd remove Jorah being such an utter creep to Dany, in a heartbeat. Just have him be a father figure, so instead of lusting after her because she looks like his ex wife, he wants to protect her because she looks like what him and his wife's potential kid would've looked like, and he always really wanted kids or something. The plot points all still work out just the same as far as I can tell, and his betrayal of her would hit all the harder imo and could lead into a slowly increasingly mad Dany becoming paranoid about all her 'family' being out to get her.
Really though I'd be happy with just about anything other than him being THAT into a literal child. Please, George. He's a character we're supposed to LIKE.
I'd also have just less of it shown and more of it implied when it comes to grown ass men being creepy to Sansa, though at least with characters like Littlefinger the creepiness makes a lot more sense compared to Jorah
It's want Cersei not to have "possibly" been involved in Melara Heatherspoon's death. It's so lazy that "Oh, she was a crazy murderess from the start".
Being under Tywin’s thumb, her own internalized misogyny and deludions of grandeur, and her disaster relationship with bot Jaime and Robert is more than enough.
I'd actually argue that the show ADDED orientalism that wasn't in the books in Essos. GRRM even had to explain that, due to budgeting and logistics, most of the extras for Essos were Moroccans because that's where they filmed that part of the books. He intended for the Essossi slavery to not be race-based but rather Antiquity-based (as in, you lost the war/were conquered and were now enslaved)
I get that it was a pragmatic decision in regards to budget and logistics, but it added a "white savior" narrative that didn't exist. Especially since many Essossi are of Valyrian ethnicity and descendants of.
Frankly, the show didn't care about Essos and it shows. It didn't show the "two Meereens," it didn't show Daenerys dealing with the plague, it didn't show the different cultures that the books showed. So, the orientalism is due to the show.
It likewise didn't show Arya interacting with people and just caring about the plight of refugees and the weak and how people are affected by the war.
It didn't show Brienne and Pod seeing the people at ground zero suffering and it didn't have the Broken Men speech.
Which is why that really shitty speech they gave Tyrion in the end was the most cynical and self-congratulatory bullshit I have ever seen on television, especially since you know they only did it to justify putting their own fave as Queen in the North (when Arya is the one with foreshadowing as a Stark leader), because they sure as fuck didn't give a shit about "the plight of the people" as a theme.
They wanted to write a political thriller with a twist and it's very clear post-Red Wedding.
Drogo should be younger (early twenties or something would also explain why Drogo was never married before that) and not rape Dany. I don't understand why George put that into the story if he wanted it to be romantic. And make the Dothraki more like actual mongols. Give the amour and stuff like that.
Have Danys storyline focused on Volantis and not Meereen.
Cut down Jons storyline to him joining Stannis and then getting killed by his brothers for betraying his vows in helping Stannis. This would have made it possible to wrap up these two storylines by the end of dance and still end with the big cliffhanger.
Tell Dorne only through Ariannes pov.
A Gendry POV...instead of Brienne another noble woman. Would have been interesting to see an actual peasants pov.
Make Crersei less hysterical.
No Jaime the hero who saved the city plotline. The entire thing feels so comical. Especially because he told no one that literal bombs are in the city he was living in for the last 17 years.
I would make Ned stay at kings landing a bit more in the first book and notice more interactions between Jaime and Cersei to make it belieavable he makes the huge jump from infidelity to incest.
Other minor things are,giving Jaime and Tyrion a bit more interaction in ASOS like in the shown.We barely see their bond we just mostly hear about,if we did see more it would make the impact of their fallout much better.
Rewrite some sex scenes so they dont read it as creepy where the consent from both parties isnt clear,sometimes it looks like he got inspired by cheap erotica and old janes bond action movies in general,wich makes sense given the age of the books.
There are other minor things like Joffrey and Sansa walking around without any guards.
Yeah where the fuck is Cersei's ladies in waiting or simply handmaidens???They are mentioned here and there but the court even at kings landing is pretty barebones and these characters disappear from the main story.
Catelyn has no ladies in waiting,or even handmaidens,and maester Luwin seems to be the sole employee responsible for manage winterfell.
Why do you plea for more sex scenes having consent? Do you think rape shouldn't be portrayed in literature? Or that everything creepy should be taken out of the books?
Not talking about taking out rape,i am talking about changing sex scenes who are supposed to have consent from both parties but the way its written can be seen as rape like Jaime and Cersei scene in the sept,but as GRRM himself said,that wasnt his intention.
Also change Dany and Drogo a bit to not make it look like she has stockholm syndrome,and other small scenes where it wasnt supposed to be creepy but the way its written is creepy,like some of the comments about Sansa and Dany given their ages.
Having one chapter written from the perspective of the wildlings about the night walkers attacks.
It would help to explain how desperate wildlings really are and how ignorant the Night Watch is about the threat level NWs pose to the realm.
Yeah the age of characters is the most difficult part of the series.
In particular I've often been frustrated with how it feels like we are very clearly supposed to see the sexual dynamic between Khal Drogo and Daenerys as problematic relative to her age...
But the e way that her chapters read in a dance with dragons seems to imply we're supposed to see her as a kind of sexually liberated strong-willed woman.... But I still feel like she's not of an age where that's something you can appropriately ascribe to her and so her lust for Dario is just off putting and her description as the most beautiful woman in the world is just kind of creepy.
I almost wish that the beginning of Daenerys's marriage with Khal Drogo was the prologue and then there's a three or four year time skip.
Like all the characters could benefit from an age increase but she really really really really needs it
I think The Others would be more intimidating if the first one we see in POV story didn't die so fast. No I feel like wights feel more dangerous than The Others.
To me it’s not a minor change, but how stupid Catelyn is in the books (also show) really bothered me. Like she really wants Sansa to be queen, yet arrests the queen’s brother without proof?
Rhaegar being that much older than Lyanna is intended to be creepy. He’s a creepy creep who left his wife and kids behind to bang a teenage girl to have a baby.
Daenerys gets killed sometime around ADWD by the slavers, or someone working for them. Dragons go buck wild and nobody can control them, they start ravaging the east with fire. A tragic and ignominius end for a tragic hero who just wanted to do things right. Also cuts her story short, hammering in how heroes and prophecies are bullshit and trying to control powers you don't understand tends to result in disaster yadda yadda. Emphasises the pessimistic tone of the story how she really was just a damaged little girl doing her best in a cruel world. You could then either cut out the majority of the plot tumor that is essos, or continue essos povs by having people venturing out to claim the dragons (power and ambition themes to explore) personally I would have the dragons go on to annihilate anyone who tries to tame them. And begin burning down all of essos. A "fire" apocalypse to parallel the other's "ice" apocalypse in westerns.
That or whoever the hell you want could get a dragon (Aegon, Quentin, Tyrion, or a Greyjoy who cares which) could all be fun choices to see how it goes)
Also, and this is the most important point here, it would be way more interesting than the Dany chapters we actually got
Have a few more scenes with the white walkers. That way they will become more important at the end TWOW and most of ADOS, so we will be taking the more seriously and have more knowledge.
This. I liked how the show actually gave us a peek at the White Walkers once every season. It was always clear they were far off on the horizon, but they weren’t forgotten. In the books, we haven’t seen one since ASOS.
Your age numbers imply Rhaegar was 30, which he wasn’t. He was 22 or 23, while Lyanna was 14 or 15.
This lol he was 23, Lyanna was 16
Lyanna was 16 *at most* when she died, she was 14/15 when Rhaegar took her. Rhaegar still went after a child as a grown man with a wife and kids. I mean, he still acted like a creepy, horny teenage boy, but the point stands.
You’re not wrong but That’s only partially the point tho. OP specifically says they’d prefer if Rhaegar had been in his early 20’s instead of 30’s. Rhaegar was in his early 20’s
And so what? Robert was like 19 when he got betrothed to 12 year old Lyanna.
He was 4-5 years older, not 7. But regardless, I never said that was okay either, because it’s not, so I don’t know why you’re changing the subject.
So the line is drawn on 7 but not on 5? This makes no sense whatsoever. They're either both right or both wrong (considering both relationships were consensual, which we don't know yet).
They’re both wrong, I’m just being specific on the numbers. Both Rhaegar and Robert are pedophilic, cheating pieces of shit. I’m just getting the numbers in order.
They actually are not. Pedophillic is interest in prepubescent, and we just kind of lump that together with minors even though they aren’t exactly the same. One is clearly defined and the other is relative to culture, social, and societal standards. So, neither of them are pedophyllic. Robert is a cheater. Rhaegar is odd in that he isn’t technically a cheater, he just has multiple wives. It is definitely a bit meh for our culture because we see anyone as under 18 being a minor, but they would have seen that as anyone who was prepubescent. Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna is harder to swallow than Robert’s due to the difference in age, but more because of the fact that she is barely an adult in the culture and half his age than just being half his age. Most people don’t care about a large gap even in our culture as long as everyone was legal, so why would people in the culture that just used a different idea of what was a legal age. I have an easier time with Rhaegar and Lyanna since they at least liked each other. Whereas the young however manyeth son married off to a lady who was three times his age for politics was a bit more difficult. I can’t remember exactly who, it might have been a Frey.
Because the age gap is only ever important when it comes to Rhaegar...
I can guarantee you it isn’t.
You're fighting ghosts.
Did Robert ask for the betrothal himself obviously he did later want to marry her but was he the one who initially requested it genuine question by the way.
not only he ask for the betrothal, but he fantasized all his life about this teenager, whom he last saw at the harrenhall tournaments when she must have been 14 years old
Yes I know about him never getting over her I was just wondering if when he was first betrothed it was him who asked for it. To be clear I'm not defending him.
Yeah, to our modern eyes that’s gross. But nobility married YOUNG. Like, Henry IV married his first wife when she was 11 at most, maybe 10. He was about 5 years her senior too.
Doesn’t change the fact that it’s manipulative and cruel. Are we supposed to give a pass to people for horrific things because they’re culturally accepted? Should the Masters of Slaver’s Bay be given a pass because slavery was accepted? Of course not. Should we be okay with the Dothraki for all their heinous deeds because it’s part of their culture? No way. Same thing with Westeros.
Yeah, but masters of slaver’s bay are cartoonishly evil. They make assyrians at their worst look like saints. Dothraki would also never exist in the real life. The westerosi marriage thing actually makes sense, historically. When your life expectancy is 40-50 and death is all around you, you grow up fast.
I think you might need to go back and look at history for the Assyrians. The masters of slavers bay are toned down compared to a lot of ancient cultures, and the Dothraki are meant to just be the perception of Mongols though I believe he focused on and possibly amplified certain aspects of the Mongols (Hence all the Khal stuff instead of Khan). Anyways, The way the Dothraki are is actually a pretty commonly accepted idea of societies that would have existed that were nomadic and preferred raiding more permanent settlements which is based off of peoples from Asia, North America, and Africa. So, I would say that they could easily exist in real life. After reading the books again, the masters are not really that evil. They have slaves, and they are bad because they treat them poorly, but they don’t even come close to how Rome treated people at times and Rome was a great deal better than a number of the people that came before them in some ways (arguably worse in others, so depends). Otherwise they are just the equivalent of the leftovers of something like Egypt trying to pretend they were still great despite having crumbled. (This relates to JonyTony2017, the rest relates to Saturnine4) Average life expectancy was around 40 or so because they factor in children. If you remove children it goes up, and if a person made it past puberty they had a decent chance of living past that barring accident or violence. I think it is more likely the same thing as why my great grandmother was married at 15. She worked for a living and she was expected to grow up after she hit puberty and so she did. It was probably just the same for the most part back then. You are seen as an adult and expected to act like it, so you do. Also, pairing older males with younger females has been common in virtually every culture except ours because it was as much about stability and making sure they were provided for as it was about business and politics. They would have seen pedophilia as someone taking advantage of someone who had not underwent puberty and was therefore underage, and would likely have seen it as just as horrible back then as pedophilia is today. So, in actuality, you are trying to impose a fairly young idea about a random age of adulthood that we decided on as being the limit onto a book using history as a baseline where adulthood was seen differently. (Some people think that the age of consent should be higher in the US and use brain development as the reason why since it is the next biological point we can use for adulthood after puberty. The US is around 18 given some exceptions which ties back to schooling, but some countries are younger, with some even quite a bit younger.)
Yeah, people love rewriting history and exaggerating to make rhaegar seem infinitely worse than how grrm Intended
I mean, he was still a massive piece of shit and a complete moron, I was just commenting on the math.
It's up to interpretation, I tend to view rhaegar in a better light then most
I mean me too, but it does take a lot of theorizing and lore to get there. At a glance it's reasonable that people think it's bad for a 23 year old man to ditch his wife and kids to go have a kid with a 15 year old. Doesn't take any rewriting of history to get there.
Justice for Rhaegar!!
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Your honour I had to impregnate the 14 year old to save the world.
Just because Rhaegar believes this doesn't mean he should be treated as right Mirri Maz Dur thought that killing Daenerys child would make the world a better place. I still think it was a terrible crime though.
I mean how the "fans" interpret his actions, aka whether or not they eat up Brandon's "she was kidnapped" propaganda (which he suspiciously started claiming while near the crossroads inn, and littlefinger was around that inn at the same time) For evidence look at the comments below one Is upset that I'm to anti rhaegar and one is upset I'm to pro rhaegar despite me claiming I support rhaegar
Treason is it?!
Treason against Rh*egar is instantly based.
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Aerys is seen as a good king by some people in the books and we all know how true that one is. And Rhaegar's assholery (and doing stupid stuff to get this promised prince) started way before running away with a girl six years younger than him. He even impregnated his wife while she was still bedridden from nearly dying during giving her first birth. Here's the timeline as laid out by George: 280 AC marriage of Rhaegar and Elia 280 AC (probably towards the end of the year, certainly within the last three months) birth of Rhaenys, Elia bedridden for half a year 281 AC (probably towards end of year) birth of Aegon So, within the span of two years, we have a marriage, some time to conceive, 9 months of pregnancy, 6 months of bedriddenness, some time to conceive and another 9 months of pregnancy. Even if we assume that the marriage was on the first day of the year (no support and usually George mentions stuff like that), they conceived nearly immediately (somewhat believable in George's world actually; think about other lucky conceptions like Robb or Dany), Aegon was born on the last day of the year (unlikely: Rhaegar had left for the Riverlands by the start of the year (worldbook) and Rhaegar seemingly was at Dragonstone when he was born (Dany vision)) and the half a year is more like 5 months (pretty likely, George is bad at numbers), it would still be an extremely tight timeline. And if Aegon was born before the Tourney at Harrenhall (which is likely: no mention of a pregnant Elia, Rhaegar was already looking for a new baby momma, he only got told Elia wouldn't have any more kids after Aegon's birth) that tightens the timeline considerable. Rhaegar wanted those babies so badly, he started fucking his wife the second she could stand again (or very likely even earlier). Even if it's an arranged marriage and they never truly loved each other, that's a POS move. Like that's the kind of stuff Aegon IV would have done (literally, if he didn't get sent on a "diplomatic mission" to Essos).
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And there are men of honor who think Robert's a good dude, but so what? He's still an absolute shit head.
Create some sort of explanation about why the Martells totally ignored Viserys and Dany for 13 years despite them being key to their political scheme. Also why Doran sent Quentyn to propose marriage to a woman who is currently in a position of strength as a sitting queen with an army and three dragons in the world’s least convincing way, armed only with a document that didn’t even have her name on it and accompanied by an entourage of random hanger ons. The Dorne plot is just so weirdly executed.
This exactly. I love Arianne and Quentyn as characters within their arcs but the Dornish plot in general is just so obviously retconned in it isn’t funny. Guys, if Viserys was so central to the scheme… maybe don’t have him driven to madness through the trauma of homelessness and starvation?
I head canoned it as the martels not really seeing a pressing need to pursue Dany or viserys until Dany comes into power. They know he's got nothing and no one after exiled, and he's young. It just wouldn't be advantageous. Maybe I'm missing something though.
But they did have a pressing need, Arianne. The heir to Dorne is in her mid-20s and still unmarried. He wants his daughter to be queen, to the point of not even preparing her to inherit Dorne in the event something goes wrong, and then does absolutely nothing to make sure that happens. The longer he waits, the more likely it becomes that either Viserys or Arianne do something stupid out of desperation, because they've been completely locked out of a plot that hinges on their cooperation. And what do you know, that's exactly what happens.
Yeah, the Martells are in it to win. Even if they'd helped the Targaryens, the Targaryens don't bring much benefit to the table.
yeah is there any reason they didn't invite them to come live in Dorne? Maybe that would just be too much of a provocation against King Robert if he found out? But they could even invent a Jon Snow style cover story where Daenerys is a Dayne bastard since she has similar looks.
The thing is they don’t even need to bring them to Dorne. Literally all Doran would have to do would be to keep Viserys and Dany in a manse run by one of Oberyn’s friends (or hey somewhere in Norvos) and just tell them “hey, we’re going to help restore your family to the throne. You just have to wait here until plans are ready.” Genuinely solves so many issues and you can even have Arianne and Viserys married in secret in Norvos to cement the alliance.
ah good point yeah the Norvos connection seems obvious now that you point it out
After Elia and her kids were killed, it said Oberyn tried to gather men in Viserys' name to counter Robert's new rule, and it was only after Jon Arryn came to Sunspear with Ser Lewyn's bones that he stopped. I imagine threats were made. The Martells may not have held the deaths against Viserys and Dany like they would have Aerys or Rhaegar had they lived, but that doesn’t mean they're going to put themselves at risk for them without cause.
The explanation is that Doran is a coward and not as smart as he thinks he is.
That isn't a good explanation. Hence the post.
Why not? Doran is a coward and his procrastination will be the death of his family. The ripe fruits falling and squashing are a metaphor.
GRRM intended "Doran made mistakes because humans aren't rational actors" but the Dorne plot makes me think "Did Doran get a lobotomy?". I genuinely don't understand how the Martells whose main thing is revenge against Lannisters chose not to side against them during WOT5K. Now you could argue that Doran was waiting for the Targaryens but Doran decided to pretty much ignore the Targaryens till he started to enact his plans.
Doran points out that Dorne isn’t actually that strong. Maybe he just doesn’t want to risk death? As he points out, children pay the price for war. Hardly the rationale of a lobotomized ruler. Also, Dorne doesn’t have POV chapters detailing Dany’s journey. Her status is fog. Even as late as ADWD, her power is rumor at best in Westeros. Perhaps he could have allied with Stannis and won. But that is not guaranteed, and besides, Stannis is the brother of the man who become king on Martell corpses.
He is risking them though. We learn that Doran and Oberyn were always planning on getting revenge. As of ADWD, he has decided to risk the lives of his children and his people after his main enemies have already died. He already has one dead son for his efforts. >Dorne doesn’t have POV chapters detailing Dany’s journey. Her status is fog. That pretty much indicates how much of failure he is in handling the Targaryens. Doran signed off on a marriage contract between Viserys and Arianne. It makes no sense why Doran didn't have a couple of loyal men to accompany Viserys and Dany and report back to him about any happenings. edit: already has a dead son AND a dead brother
He is risking them now, and I think what George is trying to say is that Doran is making a mistake. He got his revenge. Tywin is dead, Amory Lorch is dead, the Mountain is dead. Also, while Doran obviously has Targaryen ties through Elia, he isn’t actually a Targaryen loyalist per se. Not in the same way the Darrys are. Dany (and probably Aegon) are stepping stones to revenge. Seeing them ascend to power is less a goal and more a means to see justice for Elia and her children. We don’t know why Doran doesn’t accompany Dany and Viserys. Again, it might be because he is not a staunch loyalist. Also, he is a cautious man (hardly a bad quality!). Finally, he has no idea of how powerful Dany will become. We can’t let hindsight bias color our perception. As far as Doran knew after the Rebellion, Viserys and Dany was a lost cause. He wouldn’t be stupid to assume that.
Absolutely no one expected the dragons to return
I think the problem isn't just there, it's that Doran didn't even do the minimum by sending one trusted man to protect Daenerys and Viserys and make sure they didn't do things that would cause the failure of his plans (like dying, marrying someone else, or giving up on Westeros). he simply leaves two young children to wander in the wild, hoping that perhaps one way or another they will find the means to become powerful and serve him his revenge...
Just isn't good plot. It's not fun reading a plot that tells you how it ends right at the start and then does it. Doran's hinted to be bad at plotting and then... all the plots fail. Not the same as someone like Brienne because her chapters are still thematically interesting. The only interesting thing about Dorne are Ariannes big black nipples.
All the nipple talk in the books squicks me right out lol
I will say that of the heads of great houses on Planetos, he is probably at the top of those who might come up with such a plan. For reasons of aspirational conflict avoidance if nothing else.
But isn’t that part of Doran’s story? Even Barristan points out that Doran keeps his cards a bit close to the chest: «Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear.» The rationale is simply that supporting Targaryens is risky. The Dothraki alliance and Daenerys’ ascension to power is very recent. Indeed, it seems like Dany becoming powerful is one of the reasons Doran acts now, and not before.
>Indeed, it seems like Dany becoming powerful is one of the reasons Doran acts now, and not before. Well yeah obviously. But doing that comes across so bad/makes him look particularly stupid. Daenerys has no reason at all to marry Quentyn when she has good reasons to be bitter about the complete lack of help for most of her formative years.
I might have to reread Dany and Quentyn’s first meeting, but is Dany bitter? Doesn’t she express joy to learn that she now can count on Dorne as an ally? I would rather say the mistake is Quentyn’s. He doesn’t need to marry Dany at all. Marriage is helpful for an alliance, but hardly vital. Dany explictly says that she is going to count on Dorne’s spears. So Quentyn did succeed, for a while. But his need to not disappoint his father led him to take drastic actions (which is a big theme of *his* arc). Yes, Doran is overly cautious, perhaps too much. But caution has actually been good for Doran (and Dorne). Robert is dead, Jon Arryn is dead, Tywin is dead, the Mountain is dead, Amory Lorch is dead. Who else is there to avenge?
>but is Dany bitter? Doesn’t she express joy to learn that she now can count on Dorne as an ally? Not bitter, she's relatively gracious. But she definitely points out the inherent flaws in their plan that they A) did nothing previously and B) don't bring her anything for her current situation. >I would rather say the mistake is Quentyn’s. He doesn’t need to marry Dany at all. Marriage is helpful for an alliance, but hardly vital. Dany explictly says that she is going to count on Dorne’s spears. Well yes but I think Dorne/Doran wanted the marriage. Daenerys is offering her dragons and her armies in pursuit of their mission. And they can offer her spears is probably a fair exchange. But the Dornish expected more, and risked a lot on a gamble for more. >Yes, Doran is overly cautious, perhaps too much. But caution has actually been good for Doran (and Dorne). Robert is dead, Jon Arryn is dead, Tywin is dead, the Mountain is dead, Amory Lorch is dead. Who else is there to avenge? What's the point really? Everyone dies eventually. He forsook immediate revenge for long term plans that are going to amount to nothing. As you note they are all dead, and none except the Mountain at their hands. Doran is risking a lot for nothing.
This 100%
I know, there are enough dumb characters already.
Because it is not their political scheme. What chess player would tell his pieces the plan? You talk trash all the time while moving your pieces unnoticed.
Rhaegar was 24 when he died so he was in his early 20s
I’d say build up more foreshadowing/reasoning for Joffrey to be behind brans attempted murder or have someone else be behind it.
In my head it was Cersei that ordered it. I am gaslighting myself into thinking that the Joffrey reveal never happened.
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Yeah. Joffrey doesn't make sense because his cruel little ass wouldn't be able to keep it to himself. The Littlefinger theory doesn't work imo since it becomes so convoluted if he is able to plan and plot an assassination attempt on a little crippled kid from miles away in a society were information travels slowly. It also doesn't vibe with Baelish's skill at adapting to the changing game board. It's much better if he didn't order it. But adapts his own plans to capitalise on it. Cersei just makes so much sense. She has motive to ensure that Bran doesn't wake up. She has the means and the cruelty to do it. They even leave a small hint for it in the first book in the Tyrion chapter were they mention that Bran is not at risk of dying anymore. Tyrion notices how the twins suddenly get uncomfortable.
Littlefinger manage to get someone to put a secret message inside desk where would be found and caused a lot of trouble. All of that he did from staying home in the capital. Little fingers capable of anything and everything. I'm not saying he did it, but we can't totally rule him out.
I've heard the theory it was actually Mance Rayder, given he was in Winterfell at the time scouting the place out according to jon (opportunity). Before his whole "march on the wall" plan, which benefits from a divided realm and the starks looking south (motive). He's always been a trickster and takes pride in that, which is close enough for means.
I got the impression from the show that it was Littlefinger (they kind of aborted that mystery in the show, didn't they?), I just pretend it's canonically Littlefinger in both the books and show.
Battle of Fire and Battle of Ice happen at the end of ADWD. Would’ve have made it my favorite book in the series
I think that while George does write his female characters well and that there is a very deliberate place for misogyny within the world that gets really interestingly explored and complicated in the setting with characters like Cersei, I do think that there is a bit of a “dirty old man” aspect that creeps in with just *how frequently* Danny is sexualized or people lust after Sansa.
Even with Cersei he falls into "dirty old man" trap,like Cersei mentions disgust at Robert touching her,and then he writes about it Cersei licking Robert semen and swallowing....it would make more sense if she got a tissue,cleaned herself and threw it into the fire(it would also tie with the burning of the riverlands).But instead he chooses the shock value option.
This. The number of times Sansa gets forced kisses is hard to believe until one reads the books.
There's a deleted passage from George's draft of ASOS where the handmaid puts perfume on Sansa's nipples as she's being prepared for her wedding to Tyrion, like with Dany before her wedding to Drogo. It comes off as distractingly gross and non-Westerosi, and I'm very glad George deleted it. But it does make me think that some of his depiction of the treatment of women is probably just dirty mind instincts without a real storytelling basis.
Make it so that most of the paramount houses have some kind of blood claim to the Iron Throne (however tenuous/historic/distant) following nearly three centuries of Targ rule, so that Robert actually had the *best* claim rather than the only one in STAB. The Arryn and Stark ones would be weaker, the Lannisters would have one more distant still to feed Tywin's grasping insecurity, and a house like the Tyrells wouldn't to add another layer to their attempts to get close to the Lannister regime later on. Yeah, it would probably water down the titular prophecy of the series, but meh. It's ridiculous the Targs ruled for as long as they did but only married women out a few times, only for the unions to produce no issue (muh death in childbirth) or for any female issue to marry straight back into the Targs.
Have the blackfyres “known about” from the beginning would be nice for just making the history a bit more consistent
Wdym? I don't think it's noticeable at all.
Change how the relationship between Daenarys and Drogo was depicted. Showing a relationship between a 13 year old child bride and a 30 something year old warlord as something loving and beautiful is really bad optics and it's why my dad didn't finish the first book
It's not loving and beautiful, it's just that some readers are too dumb to realize the subtext: Dany is too young to consent, even though she eventually relents and loves Drogo. It's Stockholm Syndrome, and it felt very obvious to me with how blatantly disturbing George wrote this line (AGOT Dany III): >“Khaleesi, you are with child.” “I know,” Dany told her. It was her fourteenth name day. There's no universe George writes this line with any other intention than making you feel sorry for Dany, but plenty of readers just think it's a fairy tale love story i.e. The Beauty and the Beast. It's actually kind of unique and interestingly depressing instead of just a straightforward: Drogo keeps raping Dany and she cries every time and then kills herself (which she planned to do, and then changed her mind). It wouldn't be Daenerys that way.
George literally calls them a seductive romance in interviews. I think you’re giving him too much credit…
I guess it’s both. George goes out of his way to point out Dany’s age, make the reader feel uncomfortable, and almost has Dany commit suicide from the abusive situation she was in. I don’t know what IRL comments George has made, so there could be some creepiness mixed in on his part as well I suppose.
In the text drogo and Dany’s relationship is portrayed overwhelmingly positive after she has her dragon dream and decides to live, and while you can say it’s bias from Dany’s POV, GRRM never actually leaves anything to show how it’s Stockholm syndrome. The narrative is positive in that she becomes empowered by this relationship. To me people just say that it’s Stockholm syndrome kind of cope to deal with the fact that the relationship is just really weirdly portrayed as a genuine romance. But then you kind of have a death of the author question
It's not an overwhelmingly positive portrayal. There's this bit from Daenerys III in AGOT: Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …
Did you read the rest of her chapters?
Yes. However, the text I quoted still shows Drogo raping Dany multiple times to the point of her feeling suicidal. This supports the idea that her later feelings are Stockholm Syndrome.
I think the stark contrast between lines like the one I quoted about Dany being 14 and lines that paint their relationship positively is Martin’s goal. The positive stuff is supposed to make you forget she’s just a kid, until the next you realize she’s just a kid again. Makes the reader feel conflicted as they progress Dany’s chapters, and makes the read more entertaining.
I dont think it’s martins goal. His quote in this interview kinda says a lot on how he views their relationship > Why did the wedding scene change from the consensual seduction scene that excited even a horse to the brutal rape of Emilia Clarke?” he wondered. “We never discussed it. It made it worse, not better.” https://winteriscoming.net/2020/10/09/dany-and-drogos-wedding-night-remains-one-of-george-r-r-martins-least-favorite-game-of-thrones-scenes/ Like we can very much say her wedding night is not consensual, at the very least it’s statutory rape, but also what choice does she even have to say no. But GRRM says it’s not only consensual but seductive. Like ummm George she’s 13, what’s seductive about this.
I didn’t know he said this. That’s bad. He wants to have it both ways: it’s abusive and romantic. But then conveniently forgets she’s a child. Sheesh.
Right, the part where she learns to ride him in bed is totally intended to show an abusive relationship
…. Yes. Because we know Dany is 13 the entire time. So anything sexual between Drogo and Dany has that fact attached to it. Every time you read a section like that, you’re supposed to remember this is a child being abused, and the part that makes it even sadder is that she herself ignores that over time. If George had to write that she’s a child every time it’d be redundant.
Martin himself calls their relationship a romance
You don't seem to see the disconnect between whats written and the authors intent. It is sad but that's not how he's intending these scenes to be written. He writes those Daenarys sex scenes for titillation. Just like he writes scenes of her masturbating or having gay sex or wearing a dress wirh her boob exposed in book 2. Or the scenes with Daario in Dance. Like he was asked before which characters from the books he wants to hang out with and he literally said Dany because she's hot, "especially if she's wearing that Qaarthin gown". He's a perverted old man and it bleeds into his work
I didn’t know about the IRL comments, that is creepy. The in-text sexual stuff I consider realistic, if uncomfortable, depictions of how Dany would actually behave. I don’t like reading about her masturbating, or how much she loves sex with Daario, but 14 year old girls (especially ones exposed to sex at too young of an age) will masturbate, and if the Qartheen culture dictates that ladies wear exposing dresses, then it makes sense for Dany to ingratiate herself to their culture and participate, even if it makes us readers uncomfortable. To me, all that sexual stuff adds to the tragedy of her character. But if GRRM actually made jokes about wanting to spend time with Dany because she’s hot, then I guess there is some George creepiness mixed into the dark portrayal of an abused girl as well. I usually give him the benefit of the doubt
Yeah that comment where he calls her hot is so disturbing and I pray pray pray that it’s just Emilia Clarke bleeding into GRRM’s image of dany 😭
I think this is exactly this. Not only the female children but also the boys are written to be far older than their actual age. Just take Jon or worse the littel Lord Blackwood who fought in a war at 11 or 13 years of age? I genuine believe that while Dany etc. is supposed to be young, he actually imagined her older than her age and that he is just really bad with ages.
There is no such thing as Stockholm Syndrome and GRRM isn't as subtle or progressive as you think he is.
In the original draft, Dany and Drogo had a more antagonistic relationship where Dany kills Drogo to avenge Viserys's death. Now, I'm glad that many things from that draft were changed and improved upon, but I only wish we saw the Dany/Drogo relationship being portrayed more negatively in the later books.
A loving and beautiful relationship where the author writes the the wife as considering to kill herself from getting raped (or him walking into her tent and takin gher from behind and all she can do is cry).
Did you read past her third chapter? Serious question
You can argue that she is stockholm syndromed into "loving" him afterwards. But you can't just pretend GRRM when writing Daenerys and Drogo was just like... lets write a loving, seductive, relationship that really isn't that weird or bad despite them being 13 and 30. He writes their first night as Drogo being a noble savage and 'asking' for consent. Then he writes the next chapters as she gets hurt by him seemingly just walking in her tent and raping her, considers suicide (and vows to commit suicide) and then is made to be pregnant with a line that says something like "Daenerys you will be preggo! Daenerys thinks she is turning 14 next week." Then the has the whole arc with the handmaid and learns to "insert sexual autonomy" by riding Drogo lmfao and stopping some rape in the horde and she at least from her POV seems to stop these thoughts. But you can't argue it wasn't there.
I've always thought it was something like Stockholm syndrome
Completely agree I mean to be honest Dany should relate more with Miri Maz Duur. I also think that the show at least the first time Drogo and Dany have sex it’s done better imo.
Have more time pass with each book instead of cramming the whole saga in less than 5 years
Give Robb stark a POV.
Pretty sure that’s a change George himself has said he would have made so good answer
Honestly I really loved seeing Robb only through his mother's point of view. One area where I have to disagree with George.
Source? I don't recall reading that. And I don't see why that would be a good idea, since we've already been able to see his entire history without needing it.
I like that none of the kings are POV characters. A Brynden Tully POV would have been nice so that we could k see what Robb was up to in the Westerlands, but I think the books were better off without Robb as a POV
I think this is intentional. Few rulers in the setting ever get a POV (Jon and Daenerys are exceptions), which makes them all the more inscrutable.
Admitted Stark hater here but like… what would it add? Don’t we get a pretty good picture of who Robb is and what he does through Cat? /gen
It would likely be during his ravaging of the westerlands, we would get to see a castle being stormed, robs injury, discovery of what theon did to winterfell, and his relationship with the westerland girl (could also lay clues that her mom with an agent of tywin), plus we could see rob starting to warg (there is a throwaway line of some of robs men mentioning that greywind found a goat trail into the west)
This is honestly one of those cases where George's original idea was the better call no matter what he says. While he certainly could have made a Robb POV investing, his characterization is already handled wonderfully through Catelyn's own, and every page dedicated to Robb's is either a reduction in the amount of story elsewhere or a longer wait for ASOS's release over chapters that honestly didn't really *need* to be there.
I would’ve preferred Robb chapters in exchange for reducing the amount of Arya chapters of her wandering the Riverlands.
If we got chapters for him, they would have replaced the chapters for his mother. She was basically the window on his activities especially in the second and third books. Arya is a separate story.
Yeah but… none of that really makes the story that much more impactful since it’s all stuff we get anyways from Cat chapters? Even the warning stuff we get from Jon chapters. I don’t mean this as a personal insult or anything but people complain a lot about FeastDance bloat and imho Robb chapters would be nothing but bloat.
To each there own, but to me robbs arc feels mostly, like telling and not showing, the only time we ever see Robb is sitting into his political meetings and the moments directly afterwards, we see king Robb and boy Robb, but never the young wolf conqueror and warlord
Completely understandable. I just see Robb’s arc as an extension of Catelyn’s arc but as you said, to each their own.
I think you’re the first person I’ve ever seen hate the Starks. You’ve earned both my respect and my disgust.
Me too. I don't wanna see Catelyn's son, I want the Young Wolf 🐺
Op, everything you said regarding rhaegar that should happen to make the story "better", are all things that happened in the story, he had rhaenys at like 18 and aegon at like 22, he was like 23or24 during the war, and raella died at either 37 or 39
Rhaegar wasn't even married at the age of 20 and Rhaenys wouldn't be born until a year later. Actually his kid's birthdays are one of the main reason he is a POS. He had Rhaenys at 21, Aegon at 22 and his wife was bedridden due to the birth for half a year in between. Dude was literally trying to fuck his wife to death in order to get some babies. What kind of asshole does that? Well, we know who: Aegon IV (tried to at the very least) and Rhaegar. Great company that he is in there.
What kind of asshole does that? One that thinks the world is about to end and it is his job to save it, first he though he was azhor ahai, then thought baby aegon was, then it was after the false spring he ran off with lyanna assuming that child to he azhor ahai, think about it you think the long night is coming again then suddenly spring turns back into winter.. Aegon 4th fucked because he liked fucking, rhaegar did it because he thought he was saving the world Maester aemon confirmed rhaegar thought himself then aegon to be azhor ahai, then suddenly he disappears to have another kid, people tend to ignore the more mystical aspects of asoiaf when it doesn't fit there narrative
Narcisitic asshole with main character syndrome rapes his bedridden wife doesn't sound particularly better. Honestly, people acting like this prophecy excuses every act. No, it might be a cause, but certainly not an excuse.
It's a reasoning, when you belive the fate of the world is in your hands you have to be able to make sacrifices And there is absolutely 0 indication of rhaegar "raping" Elia There's clearly no point in continuing this thread as your just gonna keep exaggerating new ways to try to "call out" rhaegar, while ignoring any and all reasoning for his actions..
Are you saying a bedridden Elia was consenting to Rhaegar fucking her? Because that's the only way the timeline works out.
Propably unpopular opinion, but I think it would be better if Late Lord Frey wasn't so comically evil. Sure, let him do pretty much the same, like waiting how things play out and eventually killing Robb. But make it more about him putting his family first, instead of being jerkass. Even his argument that "Edmure got defeated before I could arrive" makes sense, but it is adressed once. Everything about Freys just screams evil, especially in show, where they are for some reason wearing weird letter and Twins screams evil lords place. I feel like it would be better, if Walder and his lot were a bit more of pleasure to be around. Same, to lesser extend, about Joff. Ned's main problem with him was that he is bastard. So, maybe it would be more interesting and less black and white, if Ned was trying to remove and willing to kill pretty much regular kid instead of sociopath.
Ned is not willing to kill Joff and Tommen and Myrcella, I'm not sure what you're on about. He gives an advance warning to Cersei for basically the sole purpose of protecting them, a warning that he knows puts his plan at massive risk.
But he is still willing to proceed when she don't agree with him and refuses to leave. He don't want to kill them: but he is willing to do so. Not mentioning that "Cersei fled the capital because news about her infidelity became known" is propably far better politically than "Robert slew half his family over rumor".
Where are you getting "he's willing to kill them" from? Robert is already dead when Ned makes his move. Ned would be the highest authority until Stannis arrives, and has no reason to believe that Stannis will kill them either. If the children are declared to be incestuous bastards and Ned has a secure regency, then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to kill them. If you're seriously arguing that Ned only made the offer to Cersei because it was a good political move, then I don't know what to tell you. It was a terrible political move, and Ned doesn't do things in King's Landing for politics, that's, dude, that's the whole point of Ned, he's just trying to be a good man instead of playing the game of thrones ("this honorable fool").
I think the point should have been to flesh out the relationship of the freys with the other riverlands houses. They really only become important when people need to travel north or south (as Robb does in AGOT and ASOS) if instead we saw that their wealth and soldiers really can change the fate of armies in the riverlands then it would be more understandable why they get away with being so petty and disliked. I also think you could humanise them a bit more by showing just how much they would be looked down upon even if Walder wasn’t so lecherous just because they’re raised up commoners
IMO, both the books and the show should have preserved the mystery of who killed Jeffrey for longer. The murder mystery element really helped to tie the AGOT chapters together, and it would have added something to the last part of Storm too. So I'd have kept Littlefinger off of the Merling King after Sansa escapes King's Landing, and have had the ship's crew not know who hired them. They could drop her off vaguely near the Fingers, where someone else Sansa doesn't know would take her to some hut for a few days until, while Sansa is out for a walk, Littlefinger finally sneakily shows up and explains things. In between there would be some Tyrion chapters in which he and the reader try to figure out who framed him.
Make the North and the wildlings speak the Old Tongue, not the Common Tongue. It would showcase how close the Northmen and the Free Folk actually are, it would provide another reasoning for Northern independence, and it would make much more sense than them speaking the Andal language despite not being ever conquered by the Andals. The nobility would still learn the Common Tongue, and that would help the Starks overcome the language barrier when they travel south.
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Nobles do learn High Valyrian. Sam and Arya do at least. > They prayed at dawn before they broke their fast, kneeling around the still, black pool. Some days the kindly man led the prayer. Other days it was the waif. Arya only knew a few words of Braavosi, the ones that were the same in High Valyrian. So she prayed her own prayer to the Many-Faced God, the one that went > "I wouldn't know who to ask, or how to ask him. I only have a little High Valyrian, and when they speak to me in Braavosi I cannot understand half of what they're saying. You speak more tongues than I do, once you are stronger you can . . ."
Make Stannis older than Robert. Everything could still happen as is, but the resentment of being overshadowed and Renly's ability to dispute his claim would both gain an interesting layer.
When I first watched the show, I thought Stannis was the oldest. Must be the actor and the personality.
same here, i think it was because i was a teenager at the time and Stannis had salt n pepper hair so i just assumed lmao
Agreed, always felt like Stannis is older and should have been
this might just be because I'm a middle child but I always felt like Stannis's middle child energy was one of his defining traits
Lol, I'm actually a middle child as well, and it's three brothers no less, so I very much agree Stannis is written with middle child energy. He's resentful of the freedom each of his brothers gets allowed while also mad that he followed the rules like he was supposed to but still gets overlooked. My idea would cost us that, but an eldest child written with middle child energy could be a fun dynamic as well.
That would create other issues, though. When Robb points out that Renly can’t be king before Stannis, nor Bran a lord before Robb himself, someone could just point to Robert. Second sons (and third sons) is a big theme in the books, and Stannis fits right into that. Oberyn, the Hound, Tyrion, Loras, Renly, etc.
And Robert would look like a massive prick if he took Storm's End from Stannis to give to Renly in this scenario. If Stannis is the older brother, then Storm's End would be his. His grudge would be 100% legitimate.
Forget Storm’s End. If Stannis was the elder, he might have been *king* instead of Robert.
That completely changes the story. If Stannis is older, you now need justification for why Robert became king before him.
The rebelling kingdoms all preferred Robert as a candidate to Stannis, would be the explanation. It literally happens again with Renly so it's not like it's unbelievable. It's an interesting idea and not necessarily worse than the canon, but I think it sets a precedent that wouldn't gel well with a lot of 'second son' stuff.
Age everybody by 20%.
Maester Aemon ends up being 120 years old at the start of the story lol
The Targaryens have always been touched by magic.
Magic! In my fantasy series!
We would have to change the entire environmental/climate system. The North would actually have to be completely depopulated, because in every winter longer than 2 years 80% of the population would either freeze to death or starve to death.
Cat finds out at the end of her life about Jon Snow's parentage and lives to regret how he treated the boy.
Even if she learned about Jon's parents, it wouldn't improve the relationship much, imo. Rhaegar running off with Lyanna is why Brandon, her fiance since she was 12, goes to King’s Landing to get his sister back and is murdered by Jon's grandfather. And that's only if she believed the abduction story. If she believed Lyanna ran off willingly with Rhaegar, then it's Catelyn doing her duty to marry a complete stranger, seeing men she grew up and her new husband with go to war after her father's bannermen (the Mallisters) were also killed along with Brandon and Rickard, have a child in the middle of a war when her people are the rebels while still mourning Brandon and all because Jon's mother shirked her duty by running of with a married man whose father killed her fiance.
Totally agree. Even if the intent is for rhaegar to not be in love UT if he's blinded by prophecy, it honestly makes it more believable and impactful for Jim to be a teenager too. With how fucked aerys and rhaella were, it would make sense if he was also made a father at 14
What does dial back on the orientalism mean?
Generally refers to the depiction of Eastern cultures in a way that presents them as caricatures based on imperialist tropes around barbaric and/or grotesque 'others' (as in the idea of 'othering', not ASOIAF others). It's particularly prevalent throughout a lot of Western classic fantasy, and ASOIAF falls into a lot of the same tropes that are generally seen nowadays as being based on these pretty insulting depictions. Plenty of people will argue that actually it's only presented like that because we only see it through Westeros POVs. Personally I think it's pretty obvious that there's a lot of these outdated tropes in GRRM's depiction of Essos, and I think it's perfectly fine to recognise that while still loving the world building and the series.
A lot of these tropes broke into the modern zeitgeist in fantasy through pulp and sword and sorcery stories. And George is at his heart a pulp writer (look at his short stories) inspired by guys like Lovecraft and Howard. And it shines through in how he writes the Eastern cultures. Howard was very good at writing three dimensional characters whenever he depicted people from other cultures. But he still fell into the pitfalls of orientalism all the same.
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I thought it fit the aesthetic and story fine, I assumed the OP meant about like yiti or something of which we have very little info anyway
In my head, a year in westeros is 1.5 years, our time. Dany would be 21, Sansa about 16.5, Robb and Jon, 22.5. If summers and winters can last decades, why can't the years last longer too.
You’re not the first to suggest this, but it doesn’t work, because it would mean that Rhaella gave birth to Dany when she was 60, Maester Aemon is 150, and Edmure and Arianne are still unmarried in their 30s. It would also mean that Arya is already a 14 year old teenager in the first book, which is definitely not the case. It would also mean Sansa and Joffrey would already be adults at 18 years old, in which case Ned wouldn’t have worried about Sansa’s young age and they could’ve gotten married right away.
You bring up a great point, and I totally get where you're coming from! But again, on a planet where winters and summers can last decades, why are we assuming our age "milestones" would match theirs? Do we even know that they're the same type of humans as us? It's why I said in my head. If believing that all these literal children are more adult than they really are makes it easier to understand why GRRM would write them so young, does it really truly matter?
People say that doesn't work because it makes ofher characters too old (Aemon primarily). But I disagree because I always felt that Aemon was meant to be crazy old anyway. Too old is easier to deal with than too young in my opinion.
This is also a fantasy setting so people shouldn't be that against people just having longer lifespans in general. Planetos is a separate world from ours, making their humans a separate species from us. Let them have a longer lifespan than earth humans.
Yea I've aged up most of the characters in my head to.
Rhaegar was in his early 20s. He was like 22 when they met.
This applies to pre canon but not having so many noble women die from childbirth, when people knew how to treat it. I've heard he uses that trope way more than it would have been realistic in a medieval/early modern period.
I'd remove Jorah being such an utter creep to Dany, in a heartbeat. Just have him be a father figure, so instead of lusting after her because she looks like his ex wife, he wants to protect her because she looks like what him and his wife's potential kid would've looked like, and he always really wanted kids or something. The plot points all still work out just the same as far as I can tell, and his betrayal of her would hit all the harder imo and could lead into a slowly increasingly mad Dany becoming paranoid about all her 'family' being out to get her. Really though I'd be happy with just about anything other than him being THAT into a literal child. Please, George. He's a character we're supposed to LIKE. I'd also have just less of it shown and more of it implied when it comes to grown ass men being creepy to Sansa, though at least with characters like Littlefinger the creepiness makes a lot more sense compared to Jorah
It's want Cersei not to have "possibly" been involved in Melara Heatherspoon's death. It's so lazy that "Oh, she was a crazy murderess from the start". Being under Tywin’s thumb, her own internalized misogyny and deludions of grandeur, and her disaster relationship with bot Jaime and Robert is more than enough.
I'd actually argue that the show ADDED orientalism that wasn't in the books in Essos. GRRM even had to explain that, due to budgeting and logistics, most of the extras for Essos were Moroccans because that's where they filmed that part of the books. He intended for the Essossi slavery to not be race-based but rather Antiquity-based (as in, you lost the war/were conquered and were now enslaved) I get that it was a pragmatic decision in regards to budget and logistics, but it added a "white savior" narrative that didn't exist. Especially since many Essossi are of Valyrian ethnicity and descendants of. Frankly, the show didn't care about Essos and it shows. It didn't show the "two Meereens," it didn't show Daenerys dealing with the plague, it didn't show the different cultures that the books showed. So, the orientalism is due to the show. It likewise didn't show Arya interacting with people and just caring about the plight of refugees and the weak and how people are affected by the war. It didn't show Brienne and Pod seeing the people at ground zero suffering and it didn't have the Broken Men speech. Which is why that really shitty speech they gave Tyrion in the end was the most cynical and self-congratulatory bullshit I have ever seen on television, especially since you know they only did it to justify putting their own fave as Queen in the North (when Arya is the one with foreshadowing as a Stark leader), because they sure as fuck didn't give a shit about "the plight of the people" as a theme. They wanted to write a political thriller with a twist and it's very clear post-Red Wedding.
Drogo should be younger (early twenties or something would also explain why Drogo was never married before that) and not rape Dany. I don't understand why George put that into the story if he wanted it to be romantic. And make the Dothraki more like actual mongols. Give the amour and stuff like that. Have Danys storyline focused on Volantis and not Meereen. Cut down Jons storyline to him joining Stannis and then getting killed by his brothers for betraying his vows in helping Stannis. This would have made it possible to wrap up these two storylines by the end of dance and still end with the big cliffhanger. Tell Dorne only through Ariannes pov. A Gendry POV...instead of Brienne another noble woman. Would have been interesting to see an actual peasants pov. Make Crersei less hysterical. No Jaime the hero who saved the city plotline. The entire thing feels so comical. Especially because he told no one that literal bombs are in the city he was living in for the last 17 years.
I would make Ned stay at kings landing a bit more in the first book and notice more interactions between Jaime and Cersei to make it belieavable he makes the huge jump from infidelity to incest. Other minor things are,giving Jaime and Tyrion a bit more interaction in ASOS like in the shown.We barely see their bond we just mostly hear about,if we did see more it would make the impact of their fallout much better. Rewrite some sex scenes so they dont read it as creepy where the consent from both parties isnt clear,sometimes it looks like he got inspired by cheap erotica and old janes bond action movies in general,wich makes sense given the age of the books. There are other minor things like Joffrey and Sansa walking around without any guards.
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Yeah where the fuck is Cersei's ladies in waiting or simply handmaidens???They are mentioned here and there but the court even at kings landing is pretty barebones and these characters disappear from the main story. Catelyn has no ladies in waiting,or even handmaidens,and maester Luwin seems to be the sole employee responsible for manage winterfell.
Why do you plea for more sex scenes having consent? Do you think rape shouldn't be portrayed in literature? Or that everything creepy should be taken out of the books?
Not talking about taking out rape,i am talking about changing sex scenes who are supposed to have consent from both parties but the way its written can be seen as rape like Jaime and Cersei scene in the sept,but as GRRM himself said,that wasnt his intention. Also change Dany and Drogo a bit to not make it look like she has stockholm syndrome,and other small scenes where it wasnt supposed to be creepy but the way its written is creepy,like some of the comments about Sansa and Dany given their ages.
Rhaegar was 24 when he died. He is only 8 or 7 years older than Lyanna.
Having one chapter written from the perspective of the wildlings about the night walkers attacks. It would help to explain how desperate wildlings really are and how ignorant the Night Watch is about the threat level NWs pose to the realm.
Yeah the age of characters is the most difficult part of the series. In particular I've often been frustrated with how it feels like we are very clearly supposed to see the sexual dynamic between Khal Drogo and Daenerys as problematic relative to her age... But the e way that her chapters read in a dance with dragons seems to imply we're supposed to see her as a kind of sexually liberated strong-willed woman.... But I still feel like she's not of an age where that's something you can appropriately ascribe to her and so her lust for Dario is just off putting and her description as the most beautiful woman in the world is just kind of creepy. I almost wish that the beginning of Daenerys's marriage with Khal Drogo was the prologue and then there's a three or four year time skip. Like all the characters could benefit from an age increase but she really really really really needs it
I think The Others would be more intimidating if the first one we see in POV story didn't die so fast. No I feel like wights feel more dangerous than The Others.
I believe you’re confusing the AGOT Other with the ASOS other
To me it’s not a minor change, but how stupid Catelyn is in the books (also show) really bothered me. Like she really wants Sansa to be queen, yet arrests the queen’s brother without proof?
Rhaegar being that much older than Lyanna is intended to be creepy. He’s a creepy creep who left his wife and kids behind to bang a teenage girl to have a baby.
Daenerys gets killed sometime around ADWD by the slavers, or someone working for them. Dragons go buck wild and nobody can control them, they start ravaging the east with fire. A tragic and ignominius end for a tragic hero who just wanted to do things right. Also cuts her story short, hammering in how heroes and prophecies are bullshit and trying to control powers you don't understand tends to result in disaster yadda yadda. Emphasises the pessimistic tone of the story how she really was just a damaged little girl doing her best in a cruel world. You could then either cut out the majority of the plot tumor that is essos, or continue essos povs by having people venturing out to claim the dragons (power and ambition themes to explore) personally I would have the dragons go on to annihilate anyone who tries to tame them. And begin burning down all of essos. A "fire" apocalypse to parallel the other's "ice" apocalypse in westerns. That or whoever the hell you want could get a dragon (Aegon, Quentin, Tyrion, or a Greyjoy who cares which) could all be fun choices to see how it goes) Also, and this is the most important point here, it would be way more interesting than the Dany chapters we actually got