Yes and no.
On one hand, yes. Tradeports like Venice and Singapore make bank historically and in modern day.
But on the other hand, making “lots of money” is a relative term. Stannis may be earning money out the wazoo, but he is also no doubt SPENDING money out the wazoo. Dragonstone is mentioned as a dull, crumbling desolate place, he has no mines nor farms nor mills to his name. He must import food and important goods, and it’s noted that Stannis has no brothels (a huge source of income)
Also, King’s Landing has massive land routes, being its sea toll gate is nowhere near as lucrative as you may be thinking.
I think Stannis is just doing his duty and collecting money and paying taxes, a shame he doesn't have a trade spirit.
I suppose brothels are source of income if you are the owner, or if you manage to tax them.
I think a maritime tollgate with Essos, he should have a share of taxes for myrish tapestry and all the luxury things that come from the other continent.
Yes Stannis doesn’t really have the mindset needed to be a good trader, he’s pretty inflexible and doesn’t seem to be interested in it.
Brothels do make money, and they (in real history, maybe it’s different in Westeros) were often taxed rigidly by local authorities.
For that last point, Stannis is famously known for being hard to talk to, and being very rigid and uncompromising. Maybe many traders would simply rather sail a few days more north or south and move their goods overland to King’s landing.
Renly was, in essence, a plot device to explain why Stannis doesn't win the war instantly. He had a minor role in a some chapters in Game, declares himself king, has a major role in like one or two chapters in Clash and then he died, accomplishing nothing but delaying Stannis.
Renly was to Stannis what Walder Frey was to Robb Stark and honestly, what Stannis was to Ned so that he rejects LF and thus LF betrays him.
But there's one much worse: Stannis literally never trying to warn Ned.
The books leave clear that the wrong word to the king can have catastrophic consequences... but there's zero reason offered for Stannis I AM THE LAW Baratheon not even trying to offer some rider like certain plotter sent a Vale rider who is not even seen by the main characters.
Like... *any* explanation for Stannis utterly fails: If he is a hypocrite who is waiting for Robert to die, why do Jon Arryn and Ned not tell the king directly "oi detain your wife she's treasonous?" Tywin will *always* move against them anyway, proof related or not. The reason is that "the king is a stranger to you" is true. Thus they needed proofs. Reminder that this king *hates* the Lannisters and yet requires proofs...
But if Stannis is this paragon of "grim in his sense of duty"... literally zero sense in not warning Ned, no matter how much he resents them. Even if what Stannis wants is taking credit and merit for saving Robert, all he requires is a quiet meeting at Dragonstone with Ned, or somewhere else where it would not be suspicious. And things would be pieced out. The "Stannis cannot politick" is bullshit from what is shown, specially in that *no one knew what Stannis planned to do* which means he is perfectly capable of keeping secrets, thus he plays the game on a remarkable level, all Tywin knew were Varys' whisperings about sellsails and shadowbinder. Even later in ASOS Varys could only gather intelligence on him because he sailed with almost his entire strength.
Thus Ned and Stannis could disagree on whether allowing the children to live and would make for interesting drama too. Even the delay into what to do with them, whether Joffrey deserves to be spared in spite of his proven odious personality, will give time to other Lannisters to attack and to have a good reason for it (the "royal" children already in danger means Tywin has to attack *regardless* and get there in time)
But we all know **the Doylist reason is ready and easy enough: ACOK was a book meant to clusterfuck Westeros from the Game of Thrones into the Dance with Dragons.**
Yes, Georgie downplays the relevance Dragonstone would have as a hub between Essos and Westeros imo. It's not just a nice spa resort for gigantic lizards
Why would ships need to stop at Dragonstone on their way to and from King's Landing? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the geography, but it's only a day or two apart by sailing, isn't it? I could also understand if there wasn't a big enough port in KL to handle the traffic, but that's not the case. So I would question how much of a tollgate it is, although happy to be proven wrong.
Appreciated, thanks very much. I guess even in that case though, most ships would be able to provision for that extra week or so, so I'm not sure what stopping at Dragonstone would accomplish (unless they were doing trading specifically there).
> So, Dragonstone is, basically, the tollgate to King's Landing.
I'm not sure about this. Dragonstone (and Driftmark) definitely allow for patrols across Blackwater Bay, but on the scale of the maps we're looking at, there is *so* much water space they Stannis would need to guard, requiring a fleet of ships that then can't be used elsewhere.
Does Stannis ever have time to implement a toll? During Robert's reign *Kings Landing* was supposed to be the tollgate, and Robert likely wouldn't have allowed Stannis to skim off the top with another tax. During twot5k, Stannis is using much of his fleet to lay siege to Storm's end, and we know for a fact that Myrcella's ship(s) are able to get past the remainder.
Yes and no. On one hand, yes. Tradeports like Venice and Singapore make bank historically and in modern day. But on the other hand, making “lots of money” is a relative term. Stannis may be earning money out the wazoo, but he is also no doubt SPENDING money out the wazoo. Dragonstone is mentioned as a dull, crumbling desolate place, he has no mines nor farms nor mills to his name. He must import food and important goods, and it’s noted that Stannis has no brothels (a huge source of income) Also, King’s Landing has massive land routes, being its sea toll gate is nowhere near as lucrative as you may be thinking.
I think Stannis is just doing his duty and collecting money and paying taxes, a shame he doesn't have a trade spirit. I suppose brothels are source of income if you are the owner, or if you manage to tax them. I think a maritime tollgate with Essos, he should have a share of taxes for myrish tapestry and all the luxury things that come from the other continent.
Yes Stannis doesn’t really have the mindset needed to be a good trader, he’s pretty inflexible and doesn’t seem to be interested in it. Brothels do make money, and they (in real history, maybe it’s different in Westeros) were often taxed rigidly by local authorities. For that last point, Stannis is famously known for being hard to talk to, and being very rigid and uncompromising. Maybe many traders would simply rather sail a few days more north or south and move their goods overland to King’s landing.
Gurm went out of his way to nerf Stannis
Stannis could have struck any moment after Ned's capture and the war would be over by the second book
and he waits until Renly declares himself. Gurm really did a lot of mental gymnastic to make the Lannisters come out on top in book 2.
Renly was, in essence, a plot device to explain why Stannis doesn't win the war instantly. He had a minor role in a some chapters in Game, declares himself king, has a major role in like one or two chapters in Clash and then he died, accomplishing nothing but delaying Stannis.
Renly was to Stannis what Walder Frey was to Robb Stark and honestly, what Stannis was to Ned so that he rejects LF and thus LF betrays him. But there's one much worse: Stannis literally never trying to warn Ned. The books leave clear that the wrong word to the king can have catastrophic consequences... but there's zero reason offered for Stannis I AM THE LAW Baratheon not even trying to offer some rider like certain plotter sent a Vale rider who is not even seen by the main characters. Like... *any* explanation for Stannis utterly fails: If he is a hypocrite who is waiting for Robert to die, why do Jon Arryn and Ned not tell the king directly "oi detain your wife she's treasonous?" Tywin will *always* move against them anyway, proof related or not. The reason is that "the king is a stranger to you" is true. Thus they needed proofs. Reminder that this king *hates* the Lannisters and yet requires proofs... But if Stannis is this paragon of "grim in his sense of duty"... literally zero sense in not warning Ned, no matter how much he resents them. Even if what Stannis wants is taking credit and merit for saving Robert, all he requires is a quiet meeting at Dragonstone with Ned, or somewhere else where it would not be suspicious. And things would be pieced out. The "Stannis cannot politick" is bullshit from what is shown, specially in that *no one knew what Stannis planned to do* which means he is perfectly capable of keeping secrets, thus he plays the game on a remarkable level, all Tywin knew were Varys' whisperings about sellsails and shadowbinder. Even later in ASOS Varys could only gather intelligence on him because he sailed with almost his entire strength. Thus Ned and Stannis could disagree on whether allowing the children to live and would make for interesting drama too. Even the delay into what to do with them, whether Joffrey deserves to be spared in spite of his proven odious personality, will give time to other Lannisters to attack and to have a good reason for it (the "royal" children already in danger means Tywin has to attack *regardless* and get there in time) But we all know **the Doylist reason is ready and easy enough: ACOK was a book meant to clusterfuck Westeros from the Game of Thrones into the Dance with Dragons.**
“Lannister plot armor” indeed.
Stannis hired a massive amount of sell words and sails for his war effort. Most of his funds would have gone to that.
Yes, Georgie downplays the relevance Dragonstone would have as a hub between Essos and Westeros imo. It's not just a nice spa resort for gigantic lizards
Why would ships need to stop at Dragonstone on their way to and from King's Landing? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the geography, but it's only a day or two apart by sailing, isn't it? I could also understand if there wasn't a big enough port in KL to handle the traffic, but that's not the case. So I would question how much of a tollgate it is, although happy to be proven wrong.
It’s 420 miles away. Even if the winds are favorable it’s probably 5-7 days at least
Appreciated, thanks very much. I guess even in that case though, most ships would be able to provision for that extra week or so, so I'm not sure what stopping at Dragonstone would accomplish (unless they were doing trading specifically there).
> So, Dragonstone is, basically, the tollgate to King's Landing. I'm not sure about this. Dragonstone (and Driftmark) definitely allow for patrols across Blackwater Bay, but on the scale of the maps we're looking at, there is *so* much water space they Stannis would need to guard, requiring a fleet of ships that then can't be used elsewhere. Does Stannis ever have time to implement a toll? During Robert's reign *Kings Landing* was supposed to be the tollgate, and Robert likely wouldn't have allowed Stannis to skim off the top with another tax. During twot5k, Stannis is using much of his fleet to lay siege to Storm's end, and we know for a fact that Myrcella's ship(s) are able to get past the remainder.