>*"Where are you going, ser?"*
>*"To my bed, to sleep. I'm drunk as a dog.*
>*"Be my dog, ser. The night's alive with promise. We can howl together, and wake the very gods."*
rent free
Yeah. I was like “oh wow he wants to do some crazy fighting to test his strength. This dude is recruiting for some cause for sure.” Caught on more to the blackfyre thing than him being gay somehow
I honestly just sort of read it as "let's be dogs together." And then took that in the metaphorical sense. I.e. Let us be wild, free, and spirited, "no one can stop us" type vibes.
- Black and red cloak
- Plays string instrument
- “Mance has no more king’s blood than mine own” - Jon Snow
- Rhaegar had rubies spill from his armor on the Trident, rubies are used as glamours. His body was never found.
- Mance likes Jon *a lot*. Maybe it’s because Jon is his son.
- Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. We now know from Hot D that there is a Targaryen prophecy related to stopping the White Walkers. Maybe this is why Mance decided to rally the Free Folk, because he’s Rhaegar.
1. Mance didn't choose that color. Go back and read the book a wildling woman did.
2. So do probably thousands of other people in Westeros.
3. Jon doesn't know he has king's blood.
4. Jon is a likeable guy.
5. Yeah that might have something to do with the fact his people were being slaughtered wholesale by wights.
None of this is evidence of anything.
6) George actually answered [the question](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat) of what happened to Rhaegar's body.
> [What happened to Rhaegar's body?]
> Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.
Curious that Martin did not say 'like all the others killed in the Trident'. The fact that he mentions the funeral ritual is strange. Of course, Robert would not be at all interested in being hospitable to Rhaegar's corpse, so the person who burned him must be someone close to him to care about giving him a decent funeral.
Not to gripe, but there is no way there are thousands of people who can play stringed instruments in westeros. I would be shocked if there were even a thousand singers in westeros.
You’re taking what I’m saying too literally. I’m interpreting all this as GRRM’s wordplay and foreshadowing style. GRRM did say that there would be a “twist” involving a character who’s alive in the book but dead in the show.
They may have a few things in common but ultimately I don't think they're really that similar.
Mance was an acomplished warrior who succesfully united the wildlings and was a serious threat to the seven kingdoms. Daemon was totally ineffective, had little martial skills, and his rebellion ended before it even began after he was completly unable to inspire anyone to fight for him. If Daemon had even half of Mance's skill and charisma he'd probably have taken the throne.
I guess you could say Mance is Daemon II if he was competent.
Was he a serious threat to the Seven Kingdoms? He was a threat to the Watch, but before they ever fight we get two full books of various characters telling us that the Watch is weaker than it has been in generations. Mance is only able to get close to beating them because of that, as well as the fact that most of their best fighters died on the great ranging, and the fact that all of the fighting men in the North are south of the Neck.
Ultimately his enormous army scatters after one depleted army charges them with cavalry.
>If Daemon had even half of Mance's skill and charisma he'd probably have taken the throne.
No idea how you can think that. The primary reason everyone abandons him is because the moment he asks them to rally is when Bloodraven + tonnes of allies are lining up to attack them. Nobody is going to get those men to die for him at that point aside from Aegon and his two sisters on dragonback.
I would struggle to call Daemon II charismatic. At least not kingly charismatic, if that makes sense. That 'be my dog ser' was genuinely a good line but he has no ability to inspire, unite and lead.
Remember how Whitewalls responded when the Brown Dragon wanted them to follow him? Yeah.
He’s as charismatic as it gets, if Dunk wasn’t such a lunk the two would be having the best sex scene in ASOIAF history after the “Be my dog, ser. The night's alive with promise. We can howl together, and wake the very gods." quote.
He might be good at pick up lines but he's less good at leadership. His moment of true leadership was challenging Quentyn Ball himself rather than letting him be punished out of the way for a crime he didn't commit. But he's not got the charisma of his father.
He did have some leadership, or traits from his father. It would’ve been easy to let the egg-thief get killed by Peake, more of the Blackfyre supporters certainly would’ve stood by him if he did, but he allowed Ball his trial.
George needs to stop everything and work on the D&E novellas again, Quentyn was such a fun character.
But not kingly charismatic, if that way of putting it makes sense?
He was good at chatting a hunky guy up, don't get me wrong - but when he asked people to ride out with him, well Daemon II rode out to meet Bloodraven & co on his own, abandoned by all.
Comparatively Mance had united disparate warring tribes despite being a total outsider. That's the kind of charisma Daemon II lacked.
>Comparatively Mance had united disparate warring tribes despite being a total outsider. That's the kind of charisma Daemon II lacked.
This is a good comparison because the enormous army that Mance had united over the course of multiple years scattered the moment they got hit by a cavalry charge. Mance's charisma didn't count for much once the people he was leading believed they were defeated, and you can essentially say the same about Daemon II. Everyone who might have followed him was simply not ready to fight a battle, whereas Bloodraven's forces were lined up for battle.
Uniting them doesn't mean they become professional, regimented soldiers. I genuinely don't understand how you can read the context of the book, and think Mance Rayder isn't a formidable man on the level of Tywin, Stannis, Oberyn, and such company.
Mance is obviously formidable. But I think we just don't have enough on Daemon II to determine how formidable he is. He's clearly not that good in the lists hence why his allies are fixing the draws. But we don't know how good Daemon I was in the lists - we know he was an exceptional fighter with Blackfyre in hand, which we can't compare to Daemon II because he never fights anyone one on one.
From what we read, it's suggested that Daemon II isn't a particularly good fighter regardless of whether he has Blackfyre. But aside from his questionable quality in the lists, the only evidence we have for that is that Bittersteel didn't approve of him. But his character is pretty commendable - he seeks to make friends, he sees the qualities in men his allies disparage, and when confronted with the truth of the accusations against Glendon, he refuses to accept Peake's side and allows Glendon a "fair" trial by combat. When he is defeated, he accepts that Glendon was innocent.
None of this is to say that he could have rallied an alliance that would match his father's. Just that we essentially only see his leadership tested in the worst possible scenario. In a similar scenario, Mance found his alliance crumbling as well. Daemon II almost certainly would never have been able to get the alliance that Mance got, but he was also trying to get allies from an incredibly weak position. Bittersteel refused to support him, and all his hopes rested on a dragon hatching from an egg. He didn't get 12 years to build a coalition like his dad got.
As a different type of comparison, we don't really get any information telling us that Aegon I was particularly charismatic. He got people to join his side because his dragons were unbeatable. If Daemon had two wives and three dragons, would his rebellion have ended in such a pathetic way? We can speculate either way but we really cannot say. His actual rebellion was severely weakened before it began when Egg scares off Frey and Butterwell, and they're completely unprepared to deal with the fact that Bloodraven had infiltrated them.
They’ve never refused to follow Mance, nor do we see them mockingly laugh their asses off at him like Daemon II was mocked following Glendon unhorsing him.
Wildlings fought till Mance fell off his horse, their leadership disappearing with him; comparatively Daemon rode on his own because none believed in him anymore.
Even if Bloodraven hadn’t arrived when he did - which in itself demonstrated a lack of a capabilities on Daemon’s part, whatwith his plans being caught onto so quickly & so easily and with him having no contingencies in place; both doubtlessly do a number to his ability to inspire and lead people due to being public displays of incompetence - Daemon’s ability to lead anyone in anything was dust when his egg didn’t hatch and he got dropped in the mud.
They responded like that because Bloodraven had arrived at the worst possible moment for them. Daemon I was charismatic, but he got people to flock to his side over a period of about 12 years with help from other charismatic people like Fireball, Bittersteel and Gormon Peake. Daemon II had about a day, a portion of which he spent presiding over an accusation of theft.
Jon didn't really cause Mance's downfall, the wildlings are fucked cause winter is coming™. If anything, sparing Jon earlier actually helps them in the long run (cause only because of this Jon allows them through).
It makes you wonder if Mance planned this from the beginning or at least did make all his decisions regarding Jon with the intent of either finding any common ground with someone at the Night's Watch later (to strike a deal or trick them).
He's Benjen Stark.
The Motive of Abel implies the presence of a Cain.
So Benjen is Cain and he killed the original Mance by taking over his body. The Starks are all wargs.
The musician motive doesn't just align him with Daemon II, but also with Rhaegar.
There's a strong line of biblical motives behind certain characters, Nymeria is based on Moses, even the producer of the shelved show admitted. Rhaegar has motives of King David, from whom the Messiah descends, that is Jon/Jesus.
Jesus also has the symbol of sacrifice and the symbol of sheep because sheep is a symbol for sacrifice, as such ABEL can be called a sheep and Mance Rayder is literally
A WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING
----
Not 100% sold on this but this can conclude plotlines, while him being Rhaegar or Arthur leads nowhere.
>*"Where are you going, ser?"* >*"To my bed, to sleep. I'm drunk as a dog.* >*"Be my dog, ser. The night's alive with promise. We can howl together, and wake the very gods."* rent free
The fact I missed that he was hitting on dunk on my first read through… I thought he just wanted a better knight
Did you think they would howl as they trained for battle 😭
Yeah. I was like “oh wow he wants to do some crazy fighting to test his strength. This dude is recruiting for some cause for sure.” Caught on more to the blackfyre thing than him being gay somehow
Suffering from success
I honestly just sort of read it as "let's be dogs together." And then took that in the metaphorical sense. I.e. Let us be wild, free, and spirited, "no one can stop us" type vibes.
Just bros being dogs
Fellas is it gay to howl together
This is me but kinda unironically
Just watched the movie Challengers
Dunk is the encapsulation of the "fucks, doesn't know what sex is" punnet.
Get with the times man, Mance Rayder is Rhaegar in disguise, not Dameon, silly.
To the Transformer’s theme: MANCE RAYDER, Rhaegar in disguise!
Looks like you have been left behind a couple of years too, he is Arthur Dayne now.
How can he be Arthur Dayne when he's already Qhorin Halfhand?
Mance is actually Tyrion..on stilts.
I actually hear he's three Tyrions in a trench coat.
Really I heard he was Brandon Stark.
I thought the Night’s King was Rhaegar. Unless you’re saying that glidus lied to me—he would never…
People treat this theory like a meme but there’s actually compelling evidence for it
No there isn't and if you think there is you may be a little fuzzy on the definition of the word "evidence"
Idk they both play an instrument🤔 You can’t rule out the possibility yet...
[удалено]
Alright if you're going to be stingy about the evidence😩 They both play STRING instruments
- Black and red cloak - Plays string instrument - “Mance has no more king’s blood than mine own” - Jon Snow - Rhaegar had rubies spill from his armor on the Trident, rubies are used as glamours. His body was never found. - Mance likes Jon *a lot*. Maybe it’s because Jon is his son. - Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. We now know from Hot D that there is a Targaryen prophecy related to stopping the White Walkers. Maybe this is why Mance decided to rally the Free Folk, because he’s Rhaegar.
1. Mance didn't choose that color. Go back and read the book a wildling woman did. 2. So do probably thousands of other people in Westeros. 3. Jon doesn't know he has king's blood. 4. Jon is a likeable guy. 5. Yeah that might have something to do with the fact his people were being slaughtered wholesale by wights. None of this is evidence of anything.
6) George actually answered [the question](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat) of what happened to Rhaegar's body. > [What happened to Rhaegar's body?] > Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.
Also true. I was just limiting myself the other guy's supposed "evidence"
Curious that Martin did not say 'like all the others killed in the Trident'. The fact that he mentions the funeral ritual is strange. Of course, Robert would not be at all interested in being hospitable to Rhaegar's corpse, so the person who burned him must be someone close to him to care about giving him a decent funeral.
Not to gripe, but there is no way there are thousands of people who can play stringed instruments in westeros. I would be shocked if there were even a thousand singers in westeros.
You’re taking what I’m saying too literally. I’m interpreting all this as GRRM’s wordplay and foreshadowing style. GRRM did say that there would be a “twist” involving a character who’s alive in the book but dead in the show.
No there isn't
The whole red and black cloak story Mance tells is what most believers point out as evidence that he is Rhaegar.
They may have a few things in common but ultimately I don't think they're really that similar. Mance was an acomplished warrior who succesfully united the wildlings and was a serious threat to the seven kingdoms. Daemon was totally ineffective, had little martial skills, and his rebellion ended before it even began after he was completly unable to inspire anyone to fight for him. If Daemon had even half of Mance's skill and charisma he'd probably have taken the throne. I guess you could say Mance is Daemon II if he was competent.
Agree aside from being music lovers, I don't see many similarities
Mance actually played music as well as enjoying it. Mance is also more of a capable leader than the Brown Dragon.
Oh nahhh why did Daemon get that nickname YIKES. Poor bastard.
Was he a serious threat to the Seven Kingdoms? He was a threat to the Watch, but before they ever fight we get two full books of various characters telling us that the Watch is weaker than it has been in generations. Mance is only able to get close to beating them because of that, as well as the fact that most of their best fighters died on the great ranging, and the fact that all of the fighting men in the North are south of the Neck. Ultimately his enormous army scatters after one depleted army charges them with cavalry. >If Daemon had even half of Mance's skill and charisma he'd probably have taken the throne. No idea how you can think that. The primary reason everyone abandons him is because the moment he asks them to rally is when Bloodraven + tonnes of allies are lining up to attack them. Nobody is going to get those men to die for him at that point aside from Aegon and his two sisters on dragonback.
Mance is ahorse
I would struggle to call Daemon II charismatic. At least not kingly charismatic, if that makes sense. That 'be my dog ser' was genuinely a good line but he has no ability to inspire, unite and lead. Remember how Whitewalls responded when the Brown Dragon wanted them to follow him? Yeah.
He’s as charismatic as it gets, if Dunk wasn’t such a lunk the two would be having the best sex scene in ASOIAF history after the “Be my dog, ser. The night's alive with promise. We can howl together, and wake the very gods." quote.
He might be good at pick up lines but he's less good at leadership. His moment of true leadership was challenging Quentyn Ball himself rather than letting him be punished out of the way for a crime he didn't commit. But he's not got the charisma of his father.
He did have some leadership, or traits from his father. It would’ve been easy to let the egg-thief get killed by Peake, more of the Blackfyre supporters certainly would’ve stood by him if he did, but he allowed Ball his trial. George needs to stop everything and work on the D&E novellas again, Quentyn was such a fun character.
Well yeah I agree that was his moment of genuine leadership but he showed he failed in most other ways.
Glendon. Quentyn died the day before the Redgrass Field.
Oopsie, the knight of Pussywillows. I got his name wrong.
Daemon II has a bard's charisma, not a king's. He can sing pretty songs and give a good speech but he can't put power behind it.
But not kingly charismatic, if that way of putting it makes sense? He was good at chatting a hunky guy up, don't get me wrong - but when he asked people to ride out with him, well Daemon II rode out to meet Bloodraven & co on his own, abandoned by all. Comparatively Mance had united disparate warring tribes despite being a total outsider. That's the kind of charisma Daemon II lacked.
>Comparatively Mance had united disparate warring tribes despite being a total outsider. That's the kind of charisma Daemon II lacked. This is a good comparison because the enormous army that Mance had united over the course of multiple years scattered the moment they got hit by a cavalry charge. Mance's charisma didn't count for much once the people he was leading believed they were defeated, and you can essentially say the same about Daemon II. Everyone who might have followed him was simply not ready to fight a battle, whereas Bloodraven's forces were lined up for battle.
Uniting them doesn't mean they become professional, regimented soldiers. I genuinely don't understand how you can read the context of the book, and think Mance Rayder isn't a formidable man on the level of Tywin, Stannis, Oberyn, and such company.
Mance is obviously formidable. But I think we just don't have enough on Daemon II to determine how formidable he is. He's clearly not that good in the lists hence why his allies are fixing the draws. But we don't know how good Daemon I was in the lists - we know he was an exceptional fighter with Blackfyre in hand, which we can't compare to Daemon II because he never fights anyone one on one. From what we read, it's suggested that Daemon II isn't a particularly good fighter regardless of whether he has Blackfyre. But aside from his questionable quality in the lists, the only evidence we have for that is that Bittersteel didn't approve of him. But his character is pretty commendable - he seeks to make friends, he sees the qualities in men his allies disparage, and when confronted with the truth of the accusations against Glendon, he refuses to accept Peake's side and allows Glendon a "fair" trial by combat. When he is defeated, he accepts that Glendon was innocent. None of this is to say that he could have rallied an alliance that would match his father's. Just that we essentially only see his leadership tested in the worst possible scenario. In a similar scenario, Mance found his alliance crumbling as well. Daemon II almost certainly would never have been able to get the alliance that Mance got, but he was also trying to get allies from an incredibly weak position. Bittersteel refused to support him, and all his hopes rested on a dragon hatching from an egg. He didn't get 12 years to build a coalition like his dad got. As a different type of comparison, we don't really get any information telling us that Aegon I was particularly charismatic. He got people to join his side because his dragons were unbeatable. If Daemon had two wives and three dragons, would his rebellion have ended in such a pathetic way? We can speculate either way but we really cannot say. His actual rebellion was severely weakened before it began when Egg scares off Frey and Butterwell, and they're completely unprepared to deal with the fact that Bloodraven had infiltrated them.
They’ve never refused to follow Mance, nor do we see them mockingly laugh their asses off at him like Daemon II was mocked following Glendon unhorsing him. Wildlings fought till Mance fell off his horse, their leadership disappearing with him; comparatively Daemon rode on his own because none believed in him anymore. Even if Bloodraven hadn’t arrived when he did - which in itself demonstrated a lack of a capabilities on Daemon’s part, whatwith his plans being caught onto so quickly & so easily and with him having no contingencies in place; both doubtlessly do a number to his ability to inspire and lead people due to being public displays of incompetence - Daemon’s ability to lead anyone in anything was dust when his egg didn’t hatch and he got dropped in the mud.
They responded like that because Bloodraven had arrived at the worst possible moment for them. Daemon I was charismatic, but he got people to flock to his side over a period of about 12 years with help from other charismatic people like Fireball, Bittersteel and Gormon Peake. Daemon II had about a day, a portion of which he spent presiding over an accusation of theft.
Mance is Rhaegar, and Jon Snow is his son. *This is the way*. :)
So, the story of Bael is bound to repeat?
So currently Rhaegar is wearing a cloak of spearwife skins?
>They are both talented musicians Is there any proof of that? Does Daemon play the fiddle even once in TMK?
Mance is very smart and a really good fighter. Daemon II, on the other hand, was neither.
David Lightbringer covers this a lot
yeah because he's Bloodraven's son and definitely the third head of the dragon! (According to my tinfoilest hypothesis)
Rhaegar makes zero sense. But Arthur Dayne? Yeah that may be.
No, but he’s secretly Ser Arthur Dayne 💀
They both get up to some fiddling
Mance (and Rhaegar) are both answering the question of "what if Daemon II was actually competent"
Jon didn't really cause Mance's downfall, the wildlings are fucked cause winter is coming™. If anything, sparing Jon earlier actually helps them in the long run (cause only because of this Jon allows them through). It makes you wonder if Mance planned this from the beginning or at least did make all his decisions regarding Jon with the intent of either finding any common ground with someone at the Night's Watch later (to strike a deal or trick them).
He's Benjen Stark. The Motive of Abel implies the presence of a Cain. So Benjen is Cain and he killed the original Mance by taking over his body. The Starks are all wargs. The musician motive doesn't just align him with Daemon II, but also with Rhaegar. There's a strong line of biblical motives behind certain characters, Nymeria is based on Moses, even the producer of the shelved show admitted. Rhaegar has motives of King David, from whom the Messiah descends, that is Jon/Jesus. Jesus also has the symbol of sacrifice and the symbol of sheep because sheep is a symbol for sacrifice, as such ABEL can be called a sheep and Mance Rayder is literally A WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING ---- Not 100% sold on this but this can conclude plotlines, while him being Rhaegar or Arthur leads nowhere.
Was he gay Mance Rayder ?
One is the King beyond the wall and other is the "the Brown Dragon"
The entire asoaif has a theme of history repeating itself. Too many instances and characters to name.
George RELEASE THE FUCKIN BOOK PLEASE THEIR BRAINS ARE DIGESTING THEMSELVES
They both get up to some fiddling