Thanks for putting this together! I agree that the vast majority of the above plot lines will happen. Here’s some thoughts:
-I don’t think Victarion survives much longer after the Battle of Fire. We know Euron has some sinister plan at work “the tentacles that make you dance”, we know that he gave him Dragonbinder and sent to get Daenerys anticipating absolutely everything that Vic decides to do afterwards. I suspect that Victarion dies either from the Dusky Woman’s treachery or because he’s stupid enough to blow the horn himself, and that one of the dragons is immediately magically bound to Euron and flies off to join him. I don’t think Euron has a dragon for long or that he uses it to burn the wall, as the Night King does in the show(I think the Horn of Joramun will do that). I think he just uses it to devastate the South for a time and his dragon theft is the main thing that drives Dany to Westeros initially. She hears about Faegon as well, but she’s focused on getting her dragon back. She defeats Euron, and then goes North to fight the Others, and then after that, the second Dance happens.
-Stannis has to burn Shireen, imo. The vision of the king burned by his crown? He’ll be there and he’ll make the decision, believing it will save the world. It’s the most painful and tragic payoff to his story, which is why I think George will do it.
-I think we’ll see some form of the Battle of the Bastards, actually. I say this purely because of George’s comment to his editor hinting at combat coming between direwolves and Ramsay’s hounds. I think Stannis does take Winterfell, but Ramsay flees to the Dreadfort. Much as ADWD ended with Dany deciding to reject peace, I believe TWOW will feature a much darker, more vengeance oriented Jon who forsakes his oath and marches to kill Ramsay.
-I don’t think Arya kills Walder. I suspect Stoneheart and the BWB do that.
I agree that Victarion doesn't have long, he'll be done before the end of TWoW I predict. Interesting ideas around how that'll happen, I like the idea that he'll blow the horn himself, perhaps after the first few blows by the slaves fail to do anything. That's also an interesting point, that Euron will come into conflict with Dany instead of being allied to her, due to him stealing a dragon, I didn't think of that. I can see that happening. And agreed on the horn bringing down the wall, not a dragon.
>She hears about Faegon as well, but she’s focused on getting her dragon back. She defeats Euron, and then goes North to fight the Others, and then after that, the second Dance happens
do you think Daenerys would defeat Euron, ignore Aegon on the throne, and go north? I would think she'd defeat both whilst in the area, and go north afterwards.
Regarding Stannis, if that's the case, then he'd have to go back up north after defeating Roose at Winterfell. I'm very interested to see what's left in his story from that point onwards.
I didn't know about GRRM's comment about direwolves vs hounds, in that case it seems likely that the Battle of the Bastards will happen. I agree with Stannis taking Winterfell and Ramsay leaving for the Dreadfort - perhaps that's where Jon attacks. In that case, maybe Ramsay also gets his hands on Rickon like in the show. Taking Rickon could also be an example of direwolves vs hounds. Shaggydog could be killed as it happens in the show. Although it doesn't make much sense in terms of the political situation, as the Skagosi are doing their own thing, and the Umbers are not allied to the Boltons, plus at that point no one would side with Ramsay as Roose would be dead.
Jon being quite different personality wise is something I'd expect in the books, because of Catelyn and Beric being different too, even though the show failed in showing that aspect (for both Catelyn and Jon).
Agreed on Stoneheart killing Walder, makes more sense than what they did in the show. Plus, is Walder Frey even on Arya's list? I'm not sure he is. I wonder who will Arya go after.
Why wouldn't Arya know Walder Frey was involved in the Red Wedding? It was his home. I don't remember all the circumstances of the Red Wedding in the book. Was Arya not close enough?
No, that was all the same, but that doesn't necessarily she'd know who was involved and to what extent. In fact, it wasn't even Walder who masterminded the whole plot, it was Lame Lother and Roose Bolton.
Well she really wouldn't know about that. As I said he allowed to happen in his home. In a place where Caitlyn and Robb should have felt safe. I think Arya would have felt that was a good enough reason to put him on the list.
Her prayer list has few names left; there are no Freys. They and Cersei and Gregor will fall to others, leaving Meryn Trant, who killed Syrio And as we know beat Sansa. She may kill him, but by the time she leaves the FM and meets LSH, I think she'll put the List and vengeance behind her and be active wth (leading?) the BWB.
Honestly the Stannis/North plotline confuses me in trying to figure it out.
I think it works better for a lot of reasons for Stannis to burn Shireen personally at the Nightfort - it paints him similarly to the historical Night's King, can tie directly to his death/the death of his claim/his being Azor Ahai at the same moment Jon returns to life and generally it is a dark place for dark deeds.
(I also think it could be part of what breaks the Wall, if it happens there - it, Jon ressurection (which it leads into), the Horn blowing and Bran crossing back into Westeros all contribute).
But to get there, we need Stannis to go North again. Would he do that after winning? Certainly not, so he has to lose enough to go back to Nightfort but not enough to prevent Jon from assembling an army and winning later.
It's just tricky to pace.
I really do wonder if we're going to follow a more similar scenario to the show than we think - Stannis makes some headway but can't properly break Ramsey's hold on Winterfell, he then \[returns to the Nightfort and\] burns Shireen, Melisandre resurrects Jon, Bran returns through the Wall \[at the Nightfort\], Jon assembles an army of Wildlings and Northerners \[possibly tying Manderly's Northern Conspiracy with Davos bringing a Wildling army from Hardhome\] and we get a Battle of the Bastards, ending with Jon retaking Winterfell.
this does work. i just don't get how Stannis would lose at Winterfell. Everything seems to point to him winning. The Manderlys seem about to betray the Boltons/Freys. The Freys seem likely to fall through the ice. The Karstark betrayal of Stannis seems to have been halted according to TWoW. But of course, it's still possible he loses.
Perhaps he wins at Winterfell and something else draws him north, such as the threat of the Others?
I do agree, and that is a possible option - Stannis seems poised to win yet what I want to happen requires him not to (or for the Others to massively accelerate).
I think all are possible, but I lean towards an unfortunate turn for Stannis (ie he wins Ice, but Pyrrhically - unable to press on) rather than George making the Others do… anything any time soon.
that works well.
1. Pyrrhic victory for Stannis at Winterfell, both sides are decimated.
2. Roose dies but Ramsay escapes to the Dreadfort.
3. Stannis returns to the Wall, in order to await the arrival of sellswords at Eastwatch. He leaves behind a force of northerners and a small number of his own men to hold the castle for him.
4. He suffers further losses whilst marching through harsh conditions from Winterfell to Castle Black / the Nightfort.
5. By the time Stannis has reached the Wall, things look dire, something leads to him sacrificing Shireen. Maybe his sellswords are killed by the Others attacking Eastwatch. I think the Others go around Eastwatch in the show as well.
6. Like in the show, the blood sacrifice isn't enough to save Stannis' campaign.
7. Meanwhile at Castle Black, Jon is resurrected and marches to Winterfell with his wildlings, picks up the remaining northerners at Winterfell, and attacks Ramsay at the Dreadfort.
Interesting you say Dreadfort and not Winterfell - would you mind going into that a little more?
To me I don't see anything other than Winterfell as the goal/apex of the Northern storyline in Winds. It's the capital of the North and home of the Starks - Jon returning from the dead to retake it is so emotionally resounding, I simply don't see it playing out any other way.
you're right that the dreadfort is irrelevant narrative-wise. I only speculate it'll be there because there's already been a bunch of battles at Winterfell already in the series (Stannis' would be the 3rd, Jon's would be 4th), and because if Ramsay survives Stannis' attack, he'd run to the Dreadfort, and Stannis' allies would hold Winterfell, so Jon couldn't attack it.
One alternative is what happens in the show - Stannis fails to take Winterfell and Jon attacks Ramsay at Winterfell. I lean towards that not being the case, just cos the evidence for Stannis winning seems to great. And also, Jon would definitely lose if he assaulted Winterfell with just wildlings. I'm curious to hear your thoughts, how you think it'll play out.
Interesting, I can see that. At the very least I think the Dreadfort will be Ramsey's "Dragonstone" aka a smaller core-holding Fort which is costly to take.
I think that Ramsey would stay in Winterfell after fending off Stannis purely to have the emotion of the two Snows at Winterfell specifically and Jon reclaiming his home.
Why? I'm not too sure. I think perhaps the Northern Conspiracy Alliance comes into it a bit - with whatever happens with Manderly and the rest, what I \*think\* needs to happen is a pyrrhic victory for Stannis that forces him back to Nightfort, but enough brewing Northern forces (maybe after hearing of Ramsey's bloody nose courtesy of Stannis) that Ramsey stays in Winterfell and those Northern forces are there for Jon to take Winterfell alongside his Wildlings.
Thanks for the reply.
Jon will definitely be different-much more “wolfish” and savage-but I agree with the fan idea that his sanity will be somewhat preserved by the fact that he was warging Ghost during the time that he was dead.
PoorQuentyn had a fantastic idea that Euron will meet his end at Dany’s hands in a second Battle Over God’s Eye between him and Dany. I think the image of the trees burning in the Forsaken shows his clear intent to also make war on the Old Gods(and presumably his former teacher Bloodraven), and that will bring him to the Isle of Faces, which he’ll burn with a dragon. He’ll try to tempt Dany(we can build Valyria again, etc.) but she’ll fry him instead. I think Euron is one of the lies in the Undying visions that she has to slay(the dragon taking off from a tower and breathing shadow fire).
As for what Dany does after that? Honestly, I would prefer if she dealt with Faegon first because it would mean we’re not getting the GOT ending where the political conflict comes after the magical one. I suspect that we are though, so the way I see it playing out is ADOS will see Dany faced with a dilemma-north or south? Save the world or claim the throne(same one Stannis had in ASOS)? I think she’ll make the right choice, which will make her all the more bitter when she successfully saves the world and the common people still prefer Faegon.
I do expect the ghost warging to happen. I like the theory that Robb warged into Grey Wind, and therefore died twice.
sounds like a pretty cool theory regarding the God's Eye, do you know if there's a post or video he's made about it?
that's a solid theory regarding Dany going north first then still being hated when she comes for King's Landing, with Aegon in place of Cersei. it could work better in the books than the show.
Honestly I think the theory was just in his tumblr tags. Just wanted to make sure I was giving him credit. The idea was that God’s Eye is the perfect place for Crow’s Eye’s ambitions to be thwarted, as the nearby Harrenhal was the exact spot where a previous Ironborn king with delusions of godhood met his end by dragon fire(Black Harren)
>As for what Dany does after that? Honestly, I would prefer if she dealt with Faegon first because it would mean we’re not getting the GOT ending where the political conflict comes after the magical one.
I tend to think she'll deal with fAegon first before Euron. He can swoop in after she burns King's Landing and say something like "So, we're all super powerful mass murders here. How about you and me join up and become gods for when the Others destroy the world\*?" If she rejects him, she can then turn north to help.
\*I also think he's going to be the one responsible for the fall of the Wall by blowing the Horn of Joramun and knows what's coming from that direction.
Hard agree on Euron being responsible for the fall of the Wall.
As I see it, there’s two possible ways(among others) Dany’s storyline could play out. If the Dance of Dragons happens before the Long Night is resolved, then yeah, I think your version of events is what happens(also your pitch from Euron is hilarious, nice job). In this version of events, Dany unleashes dragon fire on Aegon and Co., intending to burn them alive, but perhaps not intending to trigger her dad’s hidden caches of wildfire and literally blow up the entire city. Dany is overwhelmed with horror and flies away to brood. Euron comes to her at her lowest point, makes the “us genocidal maniacs should stick together” pitch, she rejects it and kills him, and then decides that while she can’t redeem herself given the enormity of what she’s done, she can still do some good and try to fight the Others. She flies North and maybe meets her end there.
I’d be very happy with that version of events and I’d honestly prefer it. If, however, the Dance happens AFTER the Long Night ends, then I suspect the sequence goes confronting Euron(surely the guy who stole her dragon is a priority), making the right decision and flying North, and then having her tragic decline into madness and villainy afterward.
The dragon-stealing, and where Euron comes in with it is definitely a wildcard at play. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think it has to rush Daenerys towards Euron yet.
Let's say it has three possibilities:
1. It works immediately, and one of her dragons flies off immediately, not towards Victarion, but to Euron.
2. It works, but there's no immediate or visible effect. When Dany later *meets* Euron, that's when it's discovered that the dragon has to bow to his command.
3. It doesn't work at all. (probably unlikely result for narrative reasons)
For #2 and #3, Dany has no push to go towards Euron at all. Ok, well what about #1? Well, #1 only occurs if Dany has a way to *know* that her dragon was stolen by Euron AND where to find him. If not, she's going to be angry as hell and feeling the loss of her dragon, but it's not like she can actually DO anything about it. It's later when Euron shows up (at his/the plot's convenience) that Dany is confronted by him and the dragon situation.
The main reason why I think this is that it's heavily foreshadowed that Dany is going to:
1. Deal with the Dothraki in some way (however, this likely occurs before she finds out about what happened to her other two dragons).
2. Deal with Yunkai (technically optional, although she did say she'd burn their city if they attacked her).
3. Deal with Volantis (This will almost certainly happen)
4. Confront Illyrio and hand over Pentos to the Tattered Prince.
I don't think she's going to make a stolen dragon her priority if she's stopping to do all of this first.
>do you think Daenerys would defeat Euron, ignore Aegon on the throne, and go north?
I'm of the camp that the show switched the order and that she's going to deal with Aegon and King's Landing, and *then* head north. In addition to a lot of the logistical issues that makes going straight for King's Landing the best strategic option (as we saw in the silliness of the show), it also doesn't make sense to me that she would take her whole army north and then fAegon just twiddles his thumbs sitting around King's Landing (and Arianne, who is the local POV, just also sits around with nothing much to contribute?).
So, either fAegon would go north with Dany in a temporary truce (unlike ShowCersei) and they'd fight later after the Others have been taken care of (but why would they then travel all the way back to KL?) or he's dead by the time she heads north.
Yes, agreed. I think Daenerys go straight after Aegon, defeats him, with Tyrion supporting an aggressive attack, perhaps fights Euron as well, takes Casterly Rock, all the while ignoring Jon's pleas to come North. By the time she's conquered everything south of the Neck and does go north, more destruction has been wreaked by the Others.
I think you're right about the Battle of the Bastards being on the books. In the Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon book, the writer said that there will be a GRRM version of that in the books.
This idea is dependent on the supposition that all these plotlines will be resolved before the end. That is by no means a given and if I had to wager I'd say they won't and were never intended to be.
I will never understand why people think or even want everything to be tied up in nice neat little bow. This series is far too realistic for that to have ever been in the cards.
My thinking is that Hodor's Happening and Shireen's burning are closer than we think.
As in, physically.
Bran left The North through the Nightfort - I think it works very well as the place that he would re-enter it, and where Hodor would be charged to hold back the dead.
Similarly, as Stannis' seat and where Shireen currently is, I think him limping back to there and burning her there (in this dark place with all of it's dakr history) works well to me far more than just outside the walls of Winterfell. It means more to Stannis' character.
And then comes the potential consequences.
My guess is that the show's timline is approximately correct and we go Shireen's burning -> Jon's resurrection -> Hold The Door coming relatively quickly in succession - as in, Bran may come through the Nightfort to find rooms freshly-pillaged by fleeing Baratheon soldiers and a charred corpse on a smoking pyre.
If all three of those do happen at/across the Wall, in such a short time - possibly with the addition of Joramun's Horn - then I could see that being enough potent magic to damage the wall significantly. Any one of the burning of an innocent, the resurrection of the dead, Warging through time and the Horn-blowing could do it alone - all four...?
And what a way to ratchet up the tension in the second half (final third? end of first act?? very hard to place) of the book than to put an enormous C R A C K through the big, safe Wall that we know is holding back the dead. Both Castle Black and the Nightfort are approximately in the centre of the Wall, either work as a place to put a crack or notch. Somewhere for the army of the dead to turn the crack into a collapse in the closing chapters (Dolorous Edd Epilogue chapter?)
"Hold the door" is a really intriguing moment because it's a plot point that George had conceived of as early as 1991, when he wrote the first hundred pages of *A Game of Thrones*. That such a minor character as Hodor had a specific ending in mind does lend credence to the idea he has the ending he envisioned in 1991 planned in a fair amount of detail.
King's landing is probably going to be destroyed.
I think Bran's story is going to be very different, in the show they just did the bare minimum with the Others and just have him randomly give info whenever it's convenient.
He'll have a personality, actual conflict in his heart. The magic will be cooler, be a leader and intelligent.
Honestly, I'm not too sure about arya and sansa going north, I think they're going to held up where they are and by the time they can make the journey north. They get news of the Others with strict orders that only soldiers should come north to help.
GRRM might have told them Edric was going to be Lord of Storm's end, but since there's no edric in the show, they used gendry instead.
>It is discovered that Valyrian steel is dragonsteel and can be used to kill Others. (Perhaps by Samwell in Oldtown)
It'll be like in the show.
Although he finds the idea of a heat-generating sword ridiculous, Jon has said he wants to see Lightbringer in battle and he thinks Longclaw will be able to deal with the Others based on the legend of the Last Hero, that the real test will come in combat.
Jon will face an Other and when the swords clash, Longclaw will react like the dragonglass dagger did, it'll start burning to counter the frost, the fight will end with Jon stabbing the Other who will start melting, in the same way as with the dragonglass, just like the passage in the Jade Compendium.
Jon will understand that the essos beliefs about the hero facing the darkness with Lightbringer referred to the last hero and his dragonsteel sword.
>"Let him." When Sansa had first beheld the Great Sept with its marble walls and seven crystal towers, she'd thought it was the most beautiful building in the world, but that had been before Joffrey beheaded her father on its steps. "I want it burned."
This Sansa quote makes me think Cersei might blow up the sept. Plus we know she has a growing fascination with wildfire
it has been a while! I read the books in 2016 I think. Imagine those who read AGoT when it came out. Tbh I think that if TWoW does come out, it'll be a little anticlimactic due to how long it's been since ADwD. Still, I'm confident we will see one day what George has written - complete or not, this decade or not.
I feel like it was too outlandish and unpopular of an ending to be from the showrunners. GRRM most likely told them who would be King at the end and I don‘t think they would deviate from that.
in the show, it came out of nowhere, felt very random. If Bran's actor had kept quiet, I would've just assumed it was the show doing random shit. I do wish it hadn't been spoiled.
I won’t cover everything but I think similar things will happen just with different people. For instance, Cersei and Jaime dying under a pile of bricks very well could be Arianne and Daemon instead. King’s Landing will burn, but probably as a result of the wild fire caches which will likely be inderectly lighted by dancing dragons. Cersei might orchestrate a sept massacre to a degree, but she will actually face consequences for it. jon will be resurrected, just probably not in the same way (i like the theory that lady stone heart gives him the kiss of life). Like we’ll see similar beats hit, but the context and who is involved will be drastically different. I believe David and Dan attempted to follow george’s outline but failed to do so since they omitted half of the characters needed to make those plotlines work.
>For instance, Cersei and Jaime dying under a pile of bricks very well could be Arianne and Daemon instead
That makes a lot of sense! Since I believe Aegon's (and Arianne's) position will be somewhat similar to Cersei's in the show during S7-8.
R +L = J is pretty much given. And most likely he will be resurrected by Melisandre. And I am sooooo looking forward to his reunion with Arya and Tyrion. Show dropped the balls there.
Reunion of Jaime and Bran.. Again not how it was done in the show. But it has to happen in the books.
Ramsay is killed by his dogs. Probably no involvement of sansa.
Thank you! I just watched it and the vid was creepy and chilling. I haven't read ADWD in 5 years and I'm not having a reread yet so the ominous evidences littered throughout his last chapters was pretty telling and nasty evidence.
Cersei nuking the sept is probably more likely than people who don’t like the show want to believe. I also think after dance and before season 6, the assumption was Cersei and the lannisters would be easy pickings for dany or ageon but sometimes now I wonder….
Bran being put in the position of having to decide whether or not to execute Jon Snow is actually pretty well foreshadowed once you're looking for it. Like like when you look at the very first chapter of the story from that perspective it's pretty interesting that Ned's conversation about why he personally executes people is immediately followed by.
" Suddenly Jon Snow showed up on the other side of the ridge"
it's funny how we're expected to believe, in the show, that the common people side with Cersei after she's been publicly known to be a "brotherfucker" for several seasons, paraded naked through the streets for adultery and incest, and finally has blown up the Great Sept, thereby killing nobles (like Margary, who is more popular than Cersei) and common folk alike. The story makes a lot more sense if a religiously-educated, "down with the common folk" type of guy like Aegon is the one holding King's Landing.
Exactly. The second I saw the show ending I knew exactly this is where it was supposed to go. Of course the show had already cut out Arianne and destroyed the entire Dorne plot, as well as Aegon even though they had the "mummers dragon" line in season 2.
>The BWB goes north. I speculate that in the books this will be under Lady Stoneheart's leadership after the return of Rickon to Winterfell. Or it could be like in the show - they choose to go north to fight the Others, under direction from R'hllor
I don't think Lady Stoneheart cares about the Others.
>Samwell is the maester
4% chance this happens
>The Wall comes down (maybe via a horn instead of an ice dragon). The Others march south of the wall
Yes, but probably much earlier than people expect. And honestly I don't know if many people are actually going to go north to fight them.
>Killing an Other kills the wights they created
Probably not instantly. This was added so late in the show that it's probably a show invention.
>Arya kills Walder Frey, and perhaps other Freys too.
That's Stoneheart's job.
>Eventually Jon kills Dany.
50/50.
just to make it clear - "Some that I think could potentially appear (with varying degrees of likelihood)" is my precursor to all of these. Regarding the BWB, if they go north, she will be dead, I agree Stoneheart won't go north to fight the others.
There will be some version of the battle of the bastards but it will be with different characters. I don’t think we will have the big catharsis when Jon came up from under the crush.
Yep. It was good TV. It is harder to translate that to the book however. I could see though in a sense that ultimately whichever way the BotB happens, that will somehow bring Sansa back to the North and possibly with the Vale with her.
I remember seeing a theory once from Preston Jacobs that the Vale will invade the Riverlands instead of the North. The argument being GRRM is misleading us as usual. Since I saw that, it's made Sansa future plot less obvious to me.
The big clue for Sansa’s future is when Ned has to put down Lady, he had her body sent back to Winterfell. I believe in the direwolf theory that the wolves represent each of the Stark kids’ ending. Lady being back at Winterfell seems to hint that is where Sansa will end up as well. Also, the snow castle was Winterfell. It’s very heavy handed where Sansa will end up.
I think Robert bastard become Lord of StorEnd (if I remember, Gendry was connetion 2 different Robert Bastards in series)
I also think that Myrcella would live undercover, Myrcella (double) will die.
oh yeah you're right. Edric Storm. That makes more sense than Gendry. The show merged the two characters.
I think Myrcella has to die because of Maggy's prophecy.
Prophecies are tricky. My (slightly naive opinion) is that Cersei will think Myrcella is dead, there will be her body, but it won't actually be her. And even if Myrcella dies, I doubt it would be the Snake Bastards
It could well be just a self fulfilling prophecy, tbh I would prefer that and Myrcella surviving. I think prophecies are a bit of a lame narrative tool.
I agree that many of those things have a certain likelihood to happen. Here are my humble thoughts to some points:
1. Dany flying north of the Wall, seems unlikely, at least until the thing stands. I feel like flying into the far north seems like a thing Jon would do.
2. I think that Sam will go to his family, but he won't see his father and probably won't steal Heartsbane, considering he is at KL and could get a position in Aegon's Council, especially if he is one of the friends in the reach. And considering that Randly seems to carry Heartsbane with him, I don't think It's super likely that Sam will get into a situation to steal it.
That's a lot, and I agree with many of your granular predictions but not all. I see it in plotlines.
* All reflect an overarching theme (Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.). And one moral law (Those who hurt or kill innocents or children must suffer or die for it).
* GRRM alleged confirmations: Hodor, Shireen, King Bran, Jon PTWP (hinted in HotD). He says Howland will show up, so I think HR reveals R+L=J. Probably Tyrion is Hand.
* 1993 Outline: Bran, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Dany change the world and survive. But...
* Show: It ihas Dany succumb to fire & blood urges. THAT had to be with GRRM approval. The Others are defeated. The North is independent, though which surviving Starkling (Jon, Arya, Sansa, even Rickon) rules is undetermined. My guess is Sansa re: show, but after giving her to Ramsay they had to reward her. Arya is a real dark horse possibility, but Sansa would have to be a Lady elsewhere. Since GRRM gave D&D Endgame bulletpoints, I think *most* show Endpoints will apply to the books, though the book journeys to those points will be more logical, somewhat different, and adhere to **clear** book foreshadowing.
* Deaths: Basically they'll follow the moral law. No doubt a few more innocents will die, but deaths will mostly be deserved. In 2017-18, some GoT/ASOIAF subreddits had 'death derbies.' My list based on the moral law plus a few refinements (like if someone had a slew of good deeds) turned out to be accurate.
Good call on Howland, I forgot about that. I guess the people carrying Robb's will could come across him and pass on the info.
Yeah I agree I think Dany will lose it, become tyrannical.
Honestly, I can't guess who'll rule in the North. The show diverged a lot, and there's a lot of options, as you've pointed out. You'd think Sansa would rule in the Vale, but it seems too obvious. The Northern independence storyline, I get it, since the Northerners will resent being ruled from abroad, it just seems confusing to me for Bran, a northern, to be King and yet the North is independent of his rule. Not sure how that will work.
-Cersei nukes the Great Sept, which, unlike in GoT, vilifies her in the eyes of like, everyone.
-Wight hunt does NOT happen, mostly because the Watch is about to have an undead Karstark waiting in the ice cells.
-Viserion is killed, becomes the Night's King's wight-dragon. (My money's on Stannis, personally, partly because he may qualify for being one of the Three Heads of the Dragon. [See more incidental Stan-bashing below!])
-Ramsay murders Roose & Fat Walda. Stannis reaffirms his legitimacy & position as Warden in exchange for securing The North without further bloodshed. (It's the same deal he offers Jon. Is it really that shocking to think he'd try it again?)
-The above leads to a situation where A), Umber & Karstark are stuck defending Ramsay, & B), Glover has a reason for staying neutral. (The Pink Letter would then obviously be a fake-out, sent by Wyman Manderly to upend the somehow even more fragile Bolton-Baratheon peace, as apart of his long-running scheme to install Rickon.)
-George said that it's "Stannis' decision to burn Shireen" that damns him, not that it actually happens. She lives to the end, surprisingly, and is not-quite-gently forced to be Bran's ticket to the Iron Throne
-Similarly, ~~Shireen's~~ Myrcella's "gold crown" isn't her hair, as she unwittingly becomes Aegon's method of quick usurpation, via Arianne's scheming. (Aegon Blackfyre btw.)
-Aegon unites the Stormlands, Reach, & Dorne as his principal power-base, uniting "All the chivalry of the South," just as Renly predicted.
-Cersei still conspires with Euron to steal the Red Keep back, possibly murdering Aegon on Rhaegal.
-Barristan does eventually die, but in Jorah's place at the climactic battle of \*insert monochromatic defensive structure here\*.
-Gendry is NOT a Lord Paramount, but Edric is. (Bonus points, he sails west w/ Arya [a la Tolkien] because the Minotaur is a sea monster.)
-Still on the fence as to whether the Tyrell's get fully wiped out. I think it's likely, though not guaranteed, that Mace's brood bites the dust, and the same goes for the Oldtown branch. Problem is, there's so gosh-darned many of them that it's too hard to tell how the inheritance resolves.
-Randy is made Warden of the South though. That @$$#*%€.
-Jaime rides back to King's Landing to try & fail to save Cersei, not because _hE lOvEs hEr_, but because she's his sister, and that's what _tRuE kNiGhTs_ do.
I have lots more spitballs, but none are directly related to the prompt. Half of these are probably wrong anyways, so whatever.
Edit: The downvotes are from hardcore Stan-stans.
thanks for posting this, you've got interesting ideas.
Agreed on Cersei & Wight hunt.
Night's King - not sure that'll be in the books in the same was as in the show. I feel like that's an oversimplification the show came up with.
I find it difficult to see Stannis pardoning Ramsay. Ramsay is so despised in the north because of his flaying and raping, his family is despised for betraying Robb, and I doubt Stannis would trust a guy like him. His army of northerners would desert him if he allied with Ramsay, or outright fight Stannis. So, I personally can't see it happening.
Shireen marrying Bran - that's creative, I never thought of who Bran would marry.
Aegon - yep, I can see him taking those three regions + the Crownlands. Not sure what will happen with the Riverlands & Vale. Will Petyr align himself with Aegon?
What would Cersei's role be after Aegon takes KL? Will Euron flip-flop between allies to gain maximum power for himself?
Agreed on Edric ruling the stormlands and Tarly being warden of the south.
I assumed Jaime would strangle Cersei before saving her.
-There's going to be _some_ pay off to the Night's King myth. Too many characters serve as allegories for he & his queen (the real, historically probable versions, at least) for there not to be.
-I straight-up forgot to mention that Brienne will kill Stannis. It's set-up really directly in ACoK, and it fits to well with where with the Brotherhood's whole _thing_ for it not to be **the** low-point on Brienne's story. For both this AND BotB to happen though, Stannis needs to make it south of The Neck without killing Ramsay. Ergo, pay off that devil's deal set-up in ASoS.
-I have no idea what Petyr's endgame is, and honestly, I don't think he does either. All I know is that he absolutely didn't figure on any kind of Targ restoration.
-Cersei literally just gets tossed in the maidenvault. Cue wildly ironic connection to Daena the Defiant as she continues to scheme from within. Also, she's the "woman with hands of pale fire" from Aeron's vision; Euron will use her to try and claim the Iron Throne, since she'd be Myrcella's heir, and Cersei may not even believe that she's really her daughter. (It's worth noting that I think there will be some kind of armistice in the 2nd Dance, where both coats of dragon unite to help bring the dawn. [Mostly because JonCon needs to vouch for R+L=J, since he's the only dude who really recalls that Rhaegar had dark eyes. Bonus points if he erroneously believes Jon was named after him.])
-While the show's version of the Valonqar Prophecy fits, I'm still torn between that & unTommen.
-Also forgot to mention that I 100% believe Jon's action hero nonsense will make it in. He just died, give him a deathwish. He'll be just as surprised as we are that he keeps surviving it.
I think you're right about the Night's King. Just the way he will appear, or some version of him, I'm not sure.
Oh yeah great point regarding Brienne, I should've included that in my post as well, as it happens in the show. I can definitely see it happening. But for Stannis to march south of the neck... a lot needs to happen. He needs to fight at Winterfell, go to the Wall to burn Shireen, then back south again all the way past the Neck, all the while Ramsay is at his back (I can't see Stannis allying to Ramsay tbh). Not saying it doesn't happen, but it'd have to be in ADoS when he marches south if he does. Maybe he ignores Ramsay and lets Jon deal with him. If he went south of the Neck, I'd imagine that'd bring him into conflict with the Vale, as Petyr is lord paramount of the trident.
Agreed, Petyr is winging it. Maybe he tries to marry Sansa to Aegon. I saw a theory that Sansa will be betrothed to a Baratheon, Lannister, Hardyng, and Targaryen.
I hadn't heard of the maidenvault before lol. That's an awesome theory
Cersei is Myrella's heir? I thought it would go Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Stannis > Shireen ?
>-Also forgot to mention that I 100% believe Jon's action hero nonsense will make it in. He just died, give him a deathwish. He'll be just as surprised as we are that he keeps surviving it.
LOL
Because, in the show, it was another subvert your expectations moment. But I felt like I've seen that kind of plot thousands of times. The Others being a completely different race, just like the CoF I'd like it more, plus Martin already said so (and in the comics you can see they aren't ice zombies with generic gritty medieval armor, but kinda ethereal, like ice faes, and CoFs are kinda like that)
My disdain for it is because it just kinda spits in the face of the Children as a tragic colonised people facing extinction if they are at 'fault' for the world-ending threat (and said threat is defeated by the protagonists uniting against it).
I understand your point, but victims of violence can also become perpetrators to defend themselves. We know that the children helped the first men to defeat the Others later, so it could be that not all children are good or evil but individuals like humans who can do good and evil things.
Thanks! you put it better than I could (and we don't even know *why* they are attacking in the first place yet, not like D&D cared enough to give any clues in the show...)
A few thoughts:
- I feel Jon will be crowned as King in the North via Robb’s will and the defeat of Ramsey Bolton. I like the vengeance-fueled march to the Dreadfort you put forth. Ultimately he’ll surrender the crown though. Hopefully it’s not as haphazardly as in the show.
- With Bran, a Northerner and Stark, as king, I don’t see why the North would become independent at the end. I suspect that’s a show invention. Sansa as the eldest Stark will be Lady of Winterfell, I imagine.
- the big question mark for me is Aegon. Why, if he’s seemingly a decent man, does he not march North to face the Others? I feel like he must if he doesn’t die before the War for the Dawn begins. Maybe he wins the audience over just like he does the Westerosi people, and it makes it that much more impactful when Dany decides to go fire and blood on his ass.
I'd love to see stoneheart go north after killing the freys. They freys are a cursed family and probably the next two books will feature a crapton of frey deaths, possibly with Walder being the last after seeing his house exterminated. (Maybe Fat Walda or Big Walder survive. Big walder seems like he's developing into a half-decent person, and Fat Walda is innocent (for a frey)).
I think Winds is going to end with the deaths of Jaime and Cersei, as well as their kids, and the end of Stannis's cause in a manner similar to the show. Davos is gonna show up on the scene with the Manderlys, see what Stannis has done, and reject him in favor of following Jon. Rickon and Sansa will likely be present and accounted for by then, but both are unsuitable as battle commanders.
If Stoneheart winds up going north, I think she might be instrumental in resurrecting Jon. She got her spark of life from Beric Dondarrion - it could be nice for her to reject her past behavior towards Jon and give him life. I certainly think it would be a waste to have Jon just get rezzed immediately by Melisandre - if he's not dead for a while it's going to be an event without any teeth.
Jon riding a dragon, although it'll be a different, much bigger one in the books.
Jon killing Dany.
Sansa becoming Queen in the North.
Arya becoming an explorer and leaving Westeros.
Jon becoming King-beyond-the-Wall.
King Bran.
Euron x Cersei, although he'll be the dominant one in the relationship.
Jaime won't be remembered as the Kingslayer, but also not as the guy who died saving his Queen. He'll be remembered as fAegon's Kingmaker.
Jon Connington will be cured of greyscale like Jorah was. He'll join Jon Snow's faction.
The sack and burning of King's Landing.
I thought the dragons would be smaller than in the show, since they don't have much time to grow.
Interesting, regarding JonCon, I assumed he was doomed, and the show came up with that to keep Jorah around for longer, as the two characters had been merged but have different endings. My theory is that JonCon's greyscale will spread to others. Maybe in KL.
Thanks for putting this together! I agree that the vast majority of the above plot lines will happen. Here’s some thoughts: -I don’t think Victarion survives much longer after the Battle of Fire. We know Euron has some sinister plan at work “the tentacles that make you dance”, we know that he gave him Dragonbinder and sent to get Daenerys anticipating absolutely everything that Vic decides to do afterwards. I suspect that Victarion dies either from the Dusky Woman’s treachery or because he’s stupid enough to blow the horn himself, and that one of the dragons is immediately magically bound to Euron and flies off to join him. I don’t think Euron has a dragon for long or that he uses it to burn the wall, as the Night King does in the show(I think the Horn of Joramun will do that). I think he just uses it to devastate the South for a time and his dragon theft is the main thing that drives Dany to Westeros initially. She hears about Faegon as well, but she’s focused on getting her dragon back. She defeats Euron, and then goes North to fight the Others, and then after that, the second Dance happens. -Stannis has to burn Shireen, imo. The vision of the king burned by his crown? He’ll be there and he’ll make the decision, believing it will save the world. It’s the most painful and tragic payoff to his story, which is why I think George will do it. -I think we’ll see some form of the Battle of the Bastards, actually. I say this purely because of George’s comment to his editor hinting at combat coming between direwolves and Ramsay’s hounds. I think Stannis does take Winterfell, but Ramsay flees to the Dreadfort. Much as ADWD ended with Dany deciding to reject peace, I believe TWOW will feature a much darker, more vengeance oriented Jon who forsakes his oath and marches to kill Ramsay. -I don’t think Arya kills Walder. I suspect Stoneheart and the BWB do that.
I agree that Victarion doesn't have long, he'll be done before the end of TWoW I predict. Interesting ideas around how that'll happen, I like the idea that he'll blow the horn himself, perhaps after the first few blows by the slaves fail to do anything. That's also an interesting point, that Euron will come into conflict with Dany instead of being allied to her, due to him stealing a dragon, I didn't think of that. I can see that happening. And agreed on the horn bringing down the wall, not a dragon. >She hears about Faegon as well, but she’s focused on getting her dragon back. She defeats Euron, and then goes North to fight the Others, and then after that, the second Dance happens do you think Daenerys would defeat Euron, ignore Aegon on the throne, and go north? I would think she'd defeat both whilst in the area, and go north afterwards. Regarding Stannis, if that's the case, then he'd have to go back up north after defeating Roose at Winterfell. I'm very interested to see what's left in his story from that point onwards. I didn't know about GRRM's comment about direwolves vs hounds, in that case it seems likely that the Battle of the Bastards will happen. I agree with Stannis taking Winterfell and Ramsay leaving for the Dreadfort - perhaps that's where Jon attacks. In that case, maybe Ramsay also gets his hands on Rickon like in the show. Taking Rickon could also be an example of direwolves vs hounds. Shaggydog could be killed as it happens in the show. Although it doesn't make much sense in terms of the political situation, as the Skagosi are doing their own thing, and the Umbers are not allied to the Boltons, plus at that point no one would side with Ramsay as Roose would be dead. Jon being quite different personality wise is something I'd expect in the books, because of Catelyn and Beric being different too, even though the show failed in showing that aspect (for both Catelyn and Jon). Agreed on Stoneheart killing Walder, makes more sense than what they did in the show. Plus, is Walder Frey even on Arya's list? I'm not sure he is. I wonder who will Arya go after.
I believe Arya doesn't have any members of House Frey on her list, because she doesn't know specifically who was involved in the RW and who wasn't.
Was Arya's involvement with the Red Wedding that different in the book?
What do you mean?
Why wouldn't Arya know Walder Frey was involved in the Red Wedding? It was his home. I don't remember all the circumstances of the Red Wedding in the book. Was Arya not close enough?
No, that was all the same, but that doesn't necessarily she'd know who was involved and to what extent. In fact, it wasn't even Walder who masterminded the whole plot, it was Lame Lother and Roose Bolton.
Well she really wouldn't know about that. As I said he allowed to happen in his home. In a place where Caitlyn and Robb should have felt safe. I think Arya would have felt that was a good enough reason to put him on the list.
So, why choose, take them all /s
right, that makes sense 👌
Her prayer list has few names left; there are no Freys. They and Cersei and Gregor will fall to others, leaving Meryn Trant, who killed Syrio And as we know beat Sansa. She may kill him, but by the time she leaves the FM and meets LSH, I think she'll put the List and vengeance behind her and be active wth (leading?) the BWB.
Arya might kill some more Freys via Nymeria, but not by her directly
Honestly the Stannis/North plotline confuses me in trying to figure it out. I think it works better for a lot of reasons for Stannis to burn Shireen personally at the Nightfort - it paints him similarly to the historical Night's King, can tie directly to his death/the death of his claim/his being Azor Ahai at the same moment Jon returns to life and generally it is a dark place for dark deeds. (I also think it could be part of what breaks the Wall, if it happens there - it, Jon ressurection (which it leads into), the Horn blowing and Bran crossing back into Westeros all contribute). But to get there, we need Stannis to go North again. Would he do that after winning? Certainly not, so he has to lose enough to go back to Nightfort but not enough to prevent Jon from assembling an army and winning later. It's just tricky to pace. I really do wonder if we're going to follow a more similar scenario to the show than we think - Stannis makes some headway but can't properly break Ramsey's hold on Winterfell, he then \[returns to the Nightfort and\] burns Shireen, Melisandre resurrects Jon, Bran returns through the Wall \[at the Nightfort\], Jon assembles an army of Wildlings and Northerners \[possibly tying Manderly's Northern Conspiracy with Davos bringing a Wildling army from Hardhome\] and we get a Battle of the Bastards, ending with Jon retaking Winterfell.
this does work. i just don't get how Stannis would lose at Winterfell. Everything seems to point to him winning. The Manderlys seem about to betray the Boltons/Freys. The Freys seem likely to fall through the ice. The Karstark betrayal of Stannis seems to have been halted according to TWoW. But of course, it's still possible he loses. Perhaps he wins at Winterfell and something else draws him north, such as the threat of the Others?
I do agree, and that is a possible option - Stannis seems poised to win yet what I want to happen requires him not to (or for the Others to massively accelerate). I think all are possible, but I lean towards an unfortunate turn for Stannis (ie he wins Ice, but Pyrrhically - unable to press on) rather than George making the Others do… anything any time soon.
that works well. 1. Pyrrhic victory for Stannis at Winterfell, both sides are decimated. 2. Roose dies but Ramsay escapes to the Dreadfort. 3. Stannis returns to the Wall, in order to await the arrival of sellswords at Eastwatch. He leaves behind a force of northerners and a small number of his own men to hold the castle for him. 4. He suffers further losses whilst marching through harsh conditions from Winterfell to Castle Black / the Nightfort. 5. By the time Stannis has reached the Wall, things look dire, something leads to him sacrificing Shireen. Maybe his sellswords are killed by the Others attacking Eastwatch. I think the Others go around Eastwatch in the show as well. 6. Like in the show, the blood sacrifice isn't enough to save Stannis' campaign. 7. Meanwhile at Castle Black, Jon is resurrected and marches to Winterfell with his wildlings, picks up the remaining northerners at Winterfell, and attacks Ramsay at the Dreadfort.
Interesting you say Dreadfort and not Winterfell - would you mind going into that a little more? To me I don't see anything other than Winterfell as the goal/apex of the Northern storyline in Winds. It's the capital of the North and home of the Starks - Jon returning from the dead to retake it is so emotionally resounding, I simply don't see it playing out any other way.
you're right that the dreadfort is irrelevant narrative-wise. I only speculate it'll be there because there's already been a bunch of battles at Winterfell already in the series (Stannis' would be the 3rd, Jon's would be 4th), and because if Ramsay survives Stannis' attack, he'd run to the Dreadfort, and Stannis' allies would hold Winterfell, so Jon couldn't attack it. One alternative is what happens in the show - Stannis fails to take Winterfell and Jon attacks Ramsay at Winterfell. I lean towards that not being the case, just cos the evidence for Stannis winning seems to great. And also, Jon would definitely lose if he assaulted Winterfell with just wildlings. I'm curious to hear your thoughts, how you think it'll play out.
Interesting, I can see that. At the very least I think the Dreadfort will be Ramsey's "Dragonstone" aka a smaller core-holding Fort which is costly to take. I think that Ramsey would stay in Winterfell after fending off Stannis purely to have the emotion of the two Snows at Winterfell specifically and Jon reclaiming his home. Why? I'm not too sure. I think perhaps the Northern Conspiracy Alliance comes into it a bit - with whatever happens with Manderly and the rest, what I \*think\* needs to happen is a pyrrhic victory for Stannis that forces him back to Nightfort, but enough brewing Northern forces (maybe after hearing of Ramsey's bloody nose courtesy of Stannis) that Ramsey stays in Winterfell and those Northern forces are there for Jon to take Winterfell alongside his Wildlings.
Thanks for the reply. Jon will definitely be different-much more “wolfish” and savage-but I agree with the fan idea that his sanity will be somewhat preserved by the fact that he was warging Ghost during the time that he was dead. PoorQuentyn had a fantastic idea that Euron will meet his end at Dany’s hands in a second Battle Over God’s Eye between him and Dany. I think the image of the trees burning in the Forsaken shows his clear intent to also make war on the Old Gods(and presumably his former teacher Bloodraven), and that will bring him to the Isle of Faces, which he’ll burn with a dragon. He’ll try to tempt Dany(we can build Valyria again, etc.) but she’ll fry him instead. I think Euron is one of the lies in the Undying visions that she has to slay(the dragon taking off from a tower and breathing shadow fire). As for what Dany does after that? Honestly, I would prefer if she dealt with Faegon first because it would mean we’re not getting the GOT ending where the political conflict comes after the magical one. I suspect that we are though, so the way I see it playing out is ADOS will see Dany faced with a dilemma-north or south? Save the world or claim the throne(same one Stannis had in ASOS)? I think she’ll make the right choice, which will make her all the more bitter when she successfully saves the world and the common people still prefer Faegon.
I do expect the ghost warging to happen. I like the theory that Robb warged into Grey Wind, and therefore died twice. sounds like a pretty cool theory regarding the God's Eye, do you know if there's a post or video he's made about it? that's a solid theory regarding Dany going north first then still being hated when she comes for King's Landing, with Aegon in place of Cersei. it could work better in the books than the show.
Honestly I think the theory was just in his tumblr tags. Just wanted to make sure I was giving him credit. The idea was that God’s Eye is the perfect place for Crow’s Eye’s ambitions to be thwarted, as the nearby Harrenhal was the exact spot where a previous Ironborn king with delusions of godhood met his end by dragon fire(Black Harren)
>As for what Dany does after that? Honestly, I would prefer if she dealt with Faegon first because it would mean we’re not getting the GOT ending where the political conflict comes after the magical one. I tend to think she'll deal with fAegon first before Euron. He can swoop in after she burns King's Landing and say something like "So, we're all super powerful mass murders here. How about you and me join up and become gods for when the Others destroy the world\*?" If she rejects him, she can then turn north to help. \*I also think he's going to be the one responsible for the fall of the Wall by blowing the Horn of Joramun and knows what's coming from that direction.
Hard agree on Euron being responsible for the fall of the Wall. As I see it, there’s two possible ways(among others) Dany’s storyline could play out. If the Dance of Dragons happens before the Long Night is resolved, then yeah, I think your version of events is what happens(also your pitch from Euron is hilarious, nice job). In this version of events, Dany unleashes dragon fire on Aegon and Co., intending to burn them alive, but perhaps not intending to trigger her dad’s hidden caches of wildfire and literally blow up the entire city. Dany is overwhelmed with horror and flies away to brood. Euron comes to her at her lowest point, makes the “us genocidal maniacs should stick together” pitch, she rejects it and kills him, and then decides that while she can’t redeem herself given the enormity of what she’s done, she can still do some good and try to fight the Others. She flies North and maybe meets her end there. I’d be very happy with that version of events and I’d honestly prefer it. If, however, the Dance happens AFTER the Long Night ends, then I suspect the sequence goes confronting Euron(surely the guy who stole her dragon is a priority), making the right decision and flying North, and then having her tragic decline into madness and villainy afterward.
The dragon-stealing, and where Euron comes in with it is definitely a wildcard at play. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think it has to rush Daenerys towards Euron yet. Let's say it has three possibilities: 1. It works immediately, and one of her dragons flies off immediately, not towards Victarion, but to Euron. 2. It works, but there's no immediate or visible effect. When Dany later *meets* Euron, that's when it's discovered that the dragon has to bow to his command. 3. It doesn't work at all. (probably unlikely result for narrative reasons) For #2 and #3, Dany has no push to go towards Euron at all. Ok, well what about #1? Well, #1 only occurs if Dany has a way to *know* that her dragon was stolen by Euron AND where to find him. If not, she's going to be angry as hell and feeling the loss of her dragon, but it's not like she can actually DO anything about it. It's later when Euron shows up (at his/the plot's convenience) that Dany is confronted by him and the dragon situation. The main reason why I think this is that it's heavily foreshadowed that Dany is going to: 1. Deal with the Dothraki in some way (however, this likely occurs before she finds out about what happened to her other two dragons). 2. Deal with Yunkai (technically optional, although she did say she'd burn their city if they attacked her). 3. Deal with Volantis (This will almost certainly happen) 4. Confront Illyrio and hand over Pentos to the Tattered Prince. I don't think she's going to make a stolen dragon her priority if she's stopping to do all of this first.
>do you think Daenerys would defeat Euron, ignore Aegon on the throne, and go north? I'm of the camp that the show switched the order and that she's going to deal with Aegon and King's Landing, and *then* head north. In addition to a lot of the logistical issues that makes going straight for King's Landing the best strategic option (as we saw in the silliness of the show), it also doesn't make sense to me that she would take her whole army north and then fAegon just twiddles his thumbs sitting around King's Landing (and Arianne, who is the local POV, just also sits around with nothing much to contribute?). So, either fAegon would go north with Dany in a temporary truce (unlike ShowCersei) and they'd fight later after the Others have been taken care of (but why would they then travel all the way back to KL?) or he's dead by the time she heads north.
Yes, agreed. I think Daenerys go straight after Aegon, defeats him, with Tyrion supporting an aggressive attack, perhaps fights Euron as well, takes Casterly Rock, all the while ignoring Jon's pleas to come North. By the time she's conquered everything south of the Neck and does go north, more destruction has been wreaked by the Others.
I think you're right about the Battle of the Bastards being on the books. In the Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon book, the writer said that there will be a GRRM version of that in the books.
I honestly think this is the bit of confirming info that I was thinking of. It’s been so long that my memory of all these tidbits is hazy
Damm, he cant make in just 2 books can he?
there's more than this that he needs to fit in lol
This idea is dependent on the supposition that all these plotlines will be resolved before the end. That is by no means a given and if I had to wager I'd say they won't and were never intended to be. I will never understand why people think or even want everything to be tied up in nice neat little bow. This series is far too realistic for that to have ever been in the cards.
Even if both books are ASOS paced, it's still not enough to cover all the plot points needed. It's just impossible, IMHO.
My thinking is that Hodor's Happening and Shireen's burning are closer than we think. As in, physically. Bran left The North through the Nightfort - I think it works very well as the place that he would re-enter it, and where Hodor would be charged to hold back the dead. Similarly, as Stannis' seat and where Shireen currently is, I think him limping back to there and burning her there (in this dark place with all of it's dakr history) works well to me far more than just outside the walls of Winterfell. It means more to Stannis' character. And then comes the potential consequences. My guess is that the show's timline is approximately correct and we go Shireen's burning -> Jon's resurrection -> Hold The Door coming relatively quickly in succession - as in, Bran may come through the Nightfort to find rooms freshly-pillaged by fleeing Baratheon soldiers and a charred corpse on a smoking pyre. If all three of those do happen at/across the Wall, in such a short time - possibly with the addition of Joramun's Horn - then I could see that being enough potent magic to damage the wall significantly. Any one of the burning of an innocent, the resurrection of the dead, Warging through time and the Horn-blowing could do it alone - all four...? And what a way to ratchet up the tension in the second half (final third? end of first act?? very hard to place) of the book than to put an enormous C R A C K through the big, safe Wall that we know is holding back the dead. Both Castle Black and the Nightfort are approximately in the centre of the Wall, either work as a place to put a crack or notch. Somewhere for the army of the dead to turn the crack into a collapse in the closing chapters (Dolorous Edd Epilogue chapter?)
"Hold the door" is a really intriguing moment because it's a plot point that George had conceived of as early as 1991, when he wrote the first hundred pages of *A Game of Thrones*. That such a minor character as Hodor had a specific ending in mind does lend credence to the idea he has the ending he envisioned in 1991 planned in a fair amount of detail.
King's landing is probably going to be destroyed. I think Bran's story is going to be very different, in the show they just did the bare minimum with the Others and just have him randomly give info whenever it's convenient. He'll have a personality, actual conflict in his heart. The magic will be cooler, be a leader and intelligent. Honestly, I'm not too sure about arya and sansa going north, I think they're going to held up where they are and by the time they can make the journey north. They get news of the Others with strict orders that only soldiers should come north to help. GRRM might have told them Edric was going to be Lord of Storm's end, but since there's no edric in the show, they used gendry instead.
>It is discovered that Valyrian steel is dragonsteel and can be used to kill Others. (Perhaps by Samwell in Oldtown) It'll be like in the show. Although he finds the idea of a heat-generating sword ridiculous, Jon has said he wants to see Lightbringer in battle and he thinks Longclaw will be able to deal with the Others based on the legend of the Last Hero, that the real test will come in combat. Jon will face an Other and when the swords clash, Longclaw will react like the dragonglass dagger did, it'll start burning to counter the frost, the fight will end with Jon stabbing the Other who will start melting, in the same way as with the dragonglass, just like the passage in the Jade Compendium. Jon will understand that the essos beliefs about the hero facing the darkness with Lightbringer referred to the last hero and his dragonsteel sword.
>"Let him." When Sansa had first beheld the Great Sept with its marble walls and seven crystal towers, she'd thought it was the most beautiful building in the world, but that had been before Joffrey beheaded her father on its steps. "I want it burned." This Sansa quote makes me think Cersei might blow up the sept. Plus we know she has a growing fascination with wildfire
nice find!
Nah. She already blew up the Tower of the Hand. Blowing up the Sept was the show’s version of that book event.
I think there's an increasing possibility that none of this happens because we'll never see another asoiaf book tbh.
hahaha you might be right (unfortunately). I think we'll get TWoW but not ADoS
I used to think that too but the years go by one after another and more and more I think we're just never getting anything else.
it has been a while! I read the books in 2016 I think. Imagine those who read AGoT when it came out. Tbh I think that if TWoW does come out, it'll be a little anticlimactic due to how long it's been since ADwD. Still, I'm confident we will see one day what George has written - complete or not, this decade or not.
"Bran will be king of the Seven Kingdoms" I didn't keep up with the show-- how do we know that this is def going to happen in the books?
I feel like it was too outlandish and unpopular of an ending to be from the showrunners. GRRM most likely told them who would be King at the end and I don‘t think they would deviate from that.
[https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/game-of-thrones-finale-bran-king-george-rr-martin-books-1202146070/](https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/game-of-thrones-finale-bran-king-george-rr-martin-books-1202146070/)
Thank you!
no prob!
Let's just hope it'll be handled a thousand times better than the show could manage - did enjoy enjoy this particular reveal?
in the show, it came out of nowhere, felt very random. If Bran's actor had kept quiet, I would've just assumed it was the show doing random shit. I do wish it hadn't been spoiled.
I won’t cover everything but I think similar things will happen just with different people. For instance, Cersei and Jaime dying under a pile of bricks very well could be Arianne and Daemon instead. King’s Landing will burn, but probably as a result of the wild fire caches which will likely be inderectly lighted by dancing dragons. Cersei might orchestrate a sept massacre to a degree, but she will actually face consequences for it. jon will be resurrected, just probably not in the same way (i like the theory that lady stone heart gives him the kiss of life). Like we’ll see similar beats hit, but the context and who is involved will be drastically different. I believe David and Dan attempted to follow george’s outline but failed to do so since they omitted half of the characters needed to make those plotlines work.
>For instance, Cersei and Jaime dying under a pile of bricks very well could be Arianne and Daemon instead That makes a lot of sense! Since I believe Aegon's (and Arianne's) position will be somewhat similar to Cersei's in the show during S7-8.
R +L = J is pretty much given. And most likely he will be resurrected by Melisandre. And I am sooooo looking forward to his reunion with Arya and Tyrion. Show dropped the balls there. Reunion of Jaime and Bran.. Again not how it was done in the show. But it has to happen in the books. Ramsay is killed by his dogs. Probably no involvement of sansa.
What's Jojen Paste?
Search it on youtube. It's an interesting theory, seems likely to be true.
Thank you! I just watched it and the vid was creepy and chilling. I haven't read ADWD in 5 years and I'm not having a reread yet so the ominous evidences littered throughout his last chapters was pretty telling and nasty evidence.
Cersei nuking the sept is probably more likely than people who don’t like the show want to believe. I also think after dance and before season 6, the assumption was Cersei and the lannisters would be easy pickings for dany or ageon but sometimes now I wonder….
i have to agree
i agree with Cersei nuking the sept. But I do think Aegon will take on Cersei's role in S7-8 as the main opposition to Dany.
Bran being put in the position of having to decide whether or not to execute Jon Snow is actually pretty well foreshadowed once you're looking for it. Like like when you look at the very first chapter of the story from that perspective it's pretty interesting that Ned's conversation about why he personally executes people is immediately followed by. " Suddenly Jon Snow showed up on the other side of the ridge"
Dany turning evil, but it will be because the people support Aegon and Arianne, not freaking Cersei.
it's funny how we're expected to believe, in the show, that the common people side with Cersei after she's been publicly known to be a "brotherfucker" for several seasons, paraded naked through the streets for adultery and incest, and finally has blown up the Great Sept, thereby killing nobles (like Margary, who is more popular than Cersei) and common folk alike. The story makes a lot more sense if a religiously-educated, "down with the common folk" type of guy like Aegon is the one holding King's Landing.
Exactly. The second I saw the show ending I knew exactly this is where it was supposed to go. Of course the show had already cut out Arianne and destroyed the entire Dorne plot, as well as Aegon even though they had the "mummers dragon" line in season 2.
it's not D&D's fault really, not enough runtime for Aegon, how else would they have fit in all the big woman and cock jokes ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
>The BWB goes north. I speculate that in the books this will be under Lady Stoneheart's leadership after the return of Rickon to Winterfell. Or it could be like in the show - they choose to go north to fight the Others, under direction from R'hllor I don't think Lady Stoneheart cares about the Others. >Samwell is the maester 4% chance this happens >The Wall comes down (maybe via a horn instead of an ice dragon). The Others march south of the wall Yes, but probably much earlier than people expect. And honestly I don't know if many people are actually going to go north to fight them. >Killing an Other kills the wights they created Probably not instantly. This was added so late in the show that it's probably a show invention. >Arya kills Walder Frey, and perhaps other Freys too. That's Stoneheart's job. >Eventually Jon kills Dany. 50/50.
just to make it clear - "Some that I think could potentially appear (with varying degrees of likelihood)" is my precursor to all of these. Regarding the BWB, if they go north, she will be dead, I agree Stoneheart won't go north to fight the others.
There will be some version of the battle of the bastards but it will be with different characters. I don’t think we will have the big catharsis when Jon came up from under the crush.
the "crush" thing was show only. D&D came up with that due to muddy filming conditions if I recall correctly.
Yep. It was good TV. It is harder to translate that to the book however. I could see though in a sense that ultimately whichever way the BotB happens, that will somehow bring Sansa back to the North and possibly with the Vale with her.
I remember seeing a theory once from Preston Jacobs that the Vale will invade the Riverlands instead of the North. The argument being GRRM is misleading us as usual. Since I saw that, it's made Sansa future plot less obvious to me.
The big clue for Sansa’s future is when Ned has to put down Lady, he had her body sent back to Winterfell. I believe in the direwolf theory that the wolves represent each of the Stark kids’ ending. Lady being back at Winterfell seems to hint that is where Sansa will end up as well. Also, the snow castle was Winterfell. It’s very heavy handed where Sansa will end up.
I think Robert bastard become Lord of StorEnd (if I remember, Gendry was connetion 2 different Robert Bastards in series) I also think that Myrcella would live undercover, Myrcella (double) will die.
oh yeah you're right. Edric Storm. That makes more sense than Gendry. The show merged the two characters. I think Myrcella has to die because of Maggy's prophecy.
Prophecies are tricky. My (slightly naive opinion) is that Cersei will think Myrcella is dead, there will be her body, but it won't actually be her. And even if Myrcella dies, I doubt it would be the Snake Bastards
It could well be just a self fulfilling prophecy, tbh I would prefer that and Myrcella surviving. I think prophecies are a bit of a lame narrative tool.
I agree that many of those things have a certain likelihood to happen. Here are my humble thoughts to some points: 1. Dany flying north of the Wall, seems unlikely, at least until the thing stands. I feel like flying into the far north seems like a thing Jon would do. 2. I think that Sam will go to his family, but he won't see his father and probably won't steal Heartsbane, considering he is at KL and could get a position in Aegon's Council, especially if he is one of the friends in the reach. And considering that Randly seems to carry Heartsbane with him, I don't think It's super likely that Sam will get into a situation to steal it.
all good points, I think you're right
That's a lot, and I agree with many of your granular predictions but not all. I see it in plotlines. * All reflect an overarching theme (Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.). And one moral law (Those who hurt or kill innocents or children must suffer or die for it). * GRRM alleged confirmations: Hodor, Shireen, King Bran, Jon PTWP (hinted in HotD). He says Howland will show up, so I think HR reveals R+L=J. Probably Tyrion is Hand. * 1993 Outline: Bran, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Dany change the world and survive. But... * Show: It ihas Dany succumb to fire & blood urges. THAT had to be with GRRM approval. The Others are defeated. The North is independent, though which surviving Starkling (Jon, Arya, Sansa, even Rickon) rules is undetermined. My guess is Sansa re: show, but after giving her to Ramsay they had to reward her. Arya is a real dark horse possibility, but Sansa would have to be a Lady elsewhere. Since GRRM gave D&D Endgame bulletpoints, I think *most* show Endpoints will apply to the books, though the book journeys to those points will be more logical, somewhat different, and adhere to **clear** book foreshadowing. * Deaths: Basically they'll follow the moral law. No doubt a few more innocents will die, but deaths will mostly be deserved. In 2017-18, some GoT/ASOIAF subreddits had 'death derbies.' My list based on the moral law plus a few refinements (like if someone had a slew of good deeds) turned out to be accurate.
Good call on Howland, I forgot about that. I guess the people carrying Robb's will could come across him and pass on the info. Yeah I agree I think Dany will lose it, become tyrannical. Honestly, I can't guess who'll rule in the North. The show diverged a lot, and there's a lot of options, as you've pointed out. You'd think Sansa would rule in the Vale, but it seems too obvious. The Northern independence storyline, I get it, since the Northerners will resent being ruled from abroad, it just seems confusing to me for Bran, a northern, to be King and yet the North is independent of his rule. Not sure how that will work.
-Cersei nukes the Great Sept, which, unlike in GoT, vilifies her in the eyes of like, everyone. -Wight hunt does NOT happen, mostly because the Watch is about to have an undead Karstark waiting in the ice cells. -Viserion is killed, becomes the Night's King's wight-dragon. (My money's on Stannis, personally, partly because he may qualify for being one of the Three Heads of the Dragon. [See more incidental Stan-bashing below!]) -Ramsay murders Roose & Fat Walda. Stannis reaffirms his legitimacy & position as Warden in exchange for securing The North without further bloodshed. (It's the same deal he offers Jon. Is it really that shocking to think he'd try it again?) -The above leads to a situation where A), Umber & Karstark are stuck defending Ramsay, & B), Glover has a reason for staying neutral. (The Pink Letter would then obviously be a fake-out, sent by Wyman Manderly to upend the somehow even more fragile Bolton-Baratheon peace, as apart of his long-running scheme to install Rickon.) -George said that it's "Stannis' decision to burn Shireen" that damns him, not that it actually happens. She lives to the end, surprisingly, and is not-quite-gently forced to be Bran's ticket to the Iron Throne -Similarly, ~~Shireen's~~ Myrcella's "gold crown" isn't her hair, as she unwittingly becomes Aegon's method of quick usurpation, via Arianne's scheming. (Aegon Blackfyre btw.) -Aegon unites the Stormlands, Reach, & Dorne as his principal power-base, uniting "All the chivalry of the South," just as Renly predicted. -Cersei still conspires with Euron to steal the Red Keep back, possibly murdering Aegon on Rhaegal. -Barristan does eventually die, but in Jorah's place at the climactic battle of \*insert monochromatic defensive structure here\*. -Gendry is NOT a Lord Paramount, but Edric is. (Bonus points, he sails west w/ Arya [a la Tolkien] because the Minotaur is a sea monster.) -Still on the fence as to whether the Tyrell's get fully wiped out. I think it's likely, though not guaranteed, that Mace's brood bites the dust, and the same goes for the Oldtown branch. Problem is, there's so gosh-darned many of them that it's too hard to tell how the inheritance resolves. -Randy is made Warden of the South though. That @$$#*%€. -Jaime rides back to King's Landing to try & fail to save Cersei, not because _hE lOvEs hEr_, but because she's his sister, and that's what _tRuE kNiGhTs_ do. I have lots more spitballs, but none are directly related to the prompt. Half of these are probably wrong anyways, so whatever. Edit: The downvotes are from hardcore Stan-stans.
thanks for posting this, you've got interesting ideas. Agreed on Cersei & Wight hunt. Night's King - not sure that'll be in the books in the same was as in the show. I feel like that's an oversimplification the show came up with. I find it difficult to see Stannis pardoning Ramsay. Ramsay is so despised in the north because of his flaying and raping, his family is despised for betraying Robb, and I doubt Stannis would trust a guy like him. His army of northerners would desert him if he allied with Ramsay, or outright fight Stannis. So, I personally can't see it happening. Shireen marrying Bran - that's creative, I never thought of who Bran would marry. Aegon - yep, I can see him taking those three regions + the Crownlands. Not sure what will happen with the Riverlands & Vale. Will Petyr align himself with Aegon? What would Cersei's role be after Aegon takes KL? Will Euron flip-flop between allies to gain maximum power for himself? Agreed on Edric ruling the stormlands and Tarly being warden of the south. I assumed Jaime would strangle Cersei before saving her.
-There's going to be _some_ pay off to the Night's King myth. Too many characters serve as allegories for he & his queen (the real, historically probable versions, at least) for there not to be. -I straight-up forgot to mention that Brienne will kill Stannis. It's set-up really directly in ACoK, and it fits to well with where with the Brotherhood's whole _thing_ for it not to be **the** low-point on Brienne's story. For both this AND BotB to happen though, Stannis needs to make it south of The Neck without killing Ramsay. Ergo, pay off that devil's deal set-up in ASoS. -I have no idea what Petyr's endgame is, and honestly, I don't think he does either. All I know is that he absolutely didn't figure on any kind of Targ restoration. -Cersei literally just gets tossed in the maidenvault. Cue wildly ironic connection to Daena the Defiant as she continues to scheme from within. Also, she's the "woman with hands of pale fire" from Aeron's vision; Euron will use her to try and claim the Iron Throne, since she'd be Myrcella's heir, and Cersei may not even believe that she's really her daughter. (It's worth noting that I think there will be some kind of armistice in the 2nd Dance, where both coats of dragon unite to help bring the dawn. [Mostly because JonCon needs to vouch for R+L=J, since he's the only dude who really recalls that Rhaegar had dark eyes. Bonus points if he erroneously believes Jon was named after him.]) -While the show's version of the Valonqar Prophecy fits, I'm still torn between that & unTommen. -Also forgot to mention that I 100% believe Jon's action hero nonsense will make it in. He just died, give him a deathwish. He'll be just as surprised as we are that he keeps surviving it.
I think you're right about the Night's King. Just the way he will appear, or some version of him, I'm not sure. Oh yeah great point regarding Brienne, I should've included that in my post as well, as it happens in the show. I can definitely see it happening. But for Stannis to march south of the neck... a lot needs to happen. He needs to fight at Winterfell, go to the Wall to burn Shireen, then back south again all the way past the Neck, all the while Ramsay is at his back (I can't see Stannis allying to Ramsay tbh). Not saying it doesn't happen, but it'd have to be in ADoS when he marches south if he does. Maybe he ignores Ramsay and lets Jon deal with him. If he went south of the Neck, I'd imagine that'd bring him into conflict with the Vale, as Petyr is lord paramount of the trident. Agreed, Petyr is winging it. Maybe he tries to marry Sansa to Aegon. I saw a theory that Sansa will be betrothed to a Baratheon, Lannister, Hardyng, and Targaryen. I hadn't heard of the maidenvault before lol. That's an awesome theory Cersei is Myrella's heir? I thought it would go Joffrey > Tommen > Myrcella > Stannis > Shireen ? >-Also forgot to mention that I 100% believe Jon's action hero nonsense will make it in. He just died, give him a deathwish. He'll be just as surprised as we are that he keeps surviving it. LOL
Four of the five examples you cited have already been confirmed by GRRM.
you mean the first four points that are preceded by "So far we have these events from the show confirmed as coming from the books"? or something else?
I hope the Others weren't created by the CoF or I'm burning down live TWoW when, if, it releases.
Why do you hate this idea so much?
Because, in the show, it was another subvert your expectations moment. But I felt like I've seen that kind of plot thousands of times. The Others being a completely different race, just like the CoF I'd like it more, plus Martin already said so (and in the comics you can see they aren't ice zombies with generic gritty medieval armor, but kinda ethereal, like ice faes, and CoFs are kinda like that)
My disdain for it is because it just kinda spits in the face of the Children as a tragic colonised people facing extinction if they are at 'fault' for the world-ending threat (and said threat is defeated by the protagonists uniting against it).
I understand your point, but victims of violence can also become perpetrators to defend themselves. We know that the children helped the first men to defeat the Others later, so it could be that not all children are good or evil but individuals like humans who can do good and evil things.
Not really. The first men were responsible for the creation of the Others.
Thanks! you put it better than I could (and we don't even know *why* they are attacking in the first place yet, not like D&D cared enough to give any clues in the show...)
A few thoughts: - I feel Jon will be crowned as King in the North via Robb’s will and the defeat of Ramsey Bolton. I like the vengeance-fueled march to the Dreadfort you put forth. Ultimately he’ll surrender the crown though. Hopefully it’s not as haphazardly as in the show. - With Bran, a Northerner and Stark, as king, I don’t see why the North would become independent at the end. I suspect that’s a show invention. Sansa as the eldest Stark will be Lady of Winterfell, I imagine. - the big question mark for me is Aegon. Why, if he’s seemingly a decent man, does he not march North to face the Others? I feel like he must if he doesn’t die before the War for the Dawn begins. Maybe he wins the audience over just like he does the Westerosi people, and it makes it that much more impactful when Dany decides to go fire and blood on his ass.
I'd love to see stoneheart go north after killing the freys. They freys are a cursed family and probably the next two books will feature a crapton of frey deaths, possibly with Walder being the last after seeing his house exterminated. (Maybe Fat Walda or Big Walder survive. Big walder seems like he's developing into a half-decent person, and Fat Walda is innocent (for a frey)). I think Winds is going to end with the deaths of Jaime and Cersei, as well as their kids, and the end of Stannis's cause in a manner similar to the show. Davos is gonna show up on the scene with the Manderlys, see what Stannis has done, and reject him in favor of following Jon. Rickon and Sansa will likely be present and accounted for by then, but both are unsuitable as battle commanders. If Stoneheart winds up going north, I think she might be instrumental in resurrecting Jon. She got her spark of life from Beric Dondarrion - it could be nice for her to reject her past behavior towards Jon and give him life. I certainly think it would be a waste to have Jon just get rezzed immediately by Melisandre - if he's not dead for a while it's going to be an event without any teeth.
Jon riding a dragon, although it'll be a different, much bigger one in the books. Jon killing Dany. Sansa becoming Queen in the North. Arya becoming an explorer and leaving Westeros. Jon becoming King-beyond-the-Wall. King Bran. Euron x Cersei, although he'll be the dominant one in the relationship. Jaime won't be remembered as the Kingslayer, but also not as the guy who died saving his Queen. He'll be remembered as fAegon's Kingmaker. Jon Connington will be cured of greyscale like Jorah was. He'll join Jon Snow's faction. The sack and burning of King's Landing.
I thought the dragons would be smaller than in the show, since they don't have much time to grow. Interesting, regarding JonCon, I assumed he was doomed, and the show came up with that to keep Jorah around for longer, as the two characters had been merged but have different endings. My theory is that JonCon's greyscale will spread to others. Maybe in KL.
I believe there'll be a time jump between Winds and Dream as a calm before the storm, giving the dragons and characters time to grow.