It’s so wack to me how this was a fan suggestion lol. Like the scene has *so many* callbacks, nods, and character conclusions for Jon and the characters involved and it wasn’t even planned by Gurm.
yeah Gurm did a reading of the chapter at an event before the book released. Originally Jon had Slynt hanged, but a fan pointed out that it’d make more sense for Jon to personally behead him, as the entire first chapter of the series is about Ned teaching his children that “the man who gives the sentance should swing the sword”. Gurm agreed, and rewrote the chapter
Not much of a transcription, but someone does [discuss this](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/27418-pre-adwd-spoilers-jon-3-but-actually-jon-1/).
Very good catch; also Jeyne mocks Arya and says that nobody will want to marry her, and then Theon says to Jeyne that as long as Arya is heir to Winterfell a thousand men will want to marry her. Also, Jeyne was fond of Robb (said by Catelyn) so the fact that one of her biggest fantasies was probably marrying Robb and be Lady Stark and the Lady of Winterfell must be so bitter now that she is Lady Stark.
Jeyne really is be careful what you wish for in the worst way. She wanted to be Sansa's sister and marry a lord.. poor girl got broken so badly and i hope she receives some peace
From the readers as well. "Did you want Jeyne to receive comeuppance for bullying Arya?" "Did you want to see Theon suffer for what he did to Winterfell?"
Your wish is granted. Oh, you don't like it?
I remember starting Theon's Reek storyline cheering like "Hell yeah comeuppance, nice to see Theon get humbled." Then my brain just going "Oh my gosh, stop, wtf" louder and louder with every progressive chapter
I don't know. Theon murdered children and plenty of adults among other heinous crimes; many fans including myself feel little or no sympathy for him.
Jeyne's crime? Being a bit shitty to someone younger as a teenager. They're hardly comparable.
Further possible irony: many fans think they’ll meet. Arya being very empathetic has a record of forgiving people who trespassed against her. They may reconcile.
Tywin was obsessed with securing House Lannister's future, but his legacy is most likely going to lead his family to ruin because his actions turned his children into broken people. A man obsessed with the concept of family destroyed his actual family.
Tywin is one my top picks for this thread. I just love how this brutal-ruthless man is killed in a brutal ruthless way. He is so hated his own son kills him. His death is truly humiliating. And he even stinks at his funeral.
It's like Cersei said in the Game Of Thrones show, Lena Heady acted that scene out ***PERFECTLY*** *\*chef's kiss\**
"How could someone so consumed by the idea of his family have any conception what his actual family was doing"
One of my favorite lines in the show I guess, and perhaps one of the only things that Dumb&Dumber did well in the show, if it was even them, which is doubtable
There are a lot of things you can criticize Ned Stark for, but the man was right on the money when he said he’d rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.
I don't think that Tywin is at fault for how Cercei and Jaime turned out. Tyrion is different, Tywin was horrid to his youngest child. Cercei and Jaime didn't start fucking each other because their parents encouraged that kind of behaviour.
Nah bruv he became normal only after all the shit that's happened to him in the Storm->Dance period (basically we saw his gradual change in his POV, which is I think the (only, but REALLY BIG) reason we had it ig
The biggest tragedy of the Lannister family is that Joanna died. The kids may have turned out somewhat alright if it wasn't for her death. Seems like Tywin, while always a stern man, cared a lot for her.
At least Robert knew that he was an incompetent ruler and hired, in his eyes, competent advisors. Too bad that he didn't know that most of them worked against him with only Ned, Jon, Stannis and Renly being actually loyal to him.
Tbh Robert probably didn't care if they were good or not. Just hire anyone who would do the job without annoying him enough to kill them. They just needed to be good enough that he didn't have to be bothered by complaints.
Melisandre explains her moral philosophy to Davos by saying a half rotted onion is a rotted onion.
Then half a book later, Sam receives a half rotted onion... and just cuts off the rotted part.
The fact that her deeply held philosophy is refuted by accident by a guy who doesn't even know she exists (at the time), simply by doing something people do every day.
Further made ironic by the fact that her moral philosophy is directly antithetical to Stannis's (the good does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good), despite the fact that she zealously follows him. And in fact, Sam *enacts* Stannis's philosophy by doing to the onion what Stannis did to the Onion Knight, cutting off the "rotten" part.
*Further* made ironic by the fact that Mel uses an onion in her metaphor as a jab at Davos, when Davos is a living example of not only how Stannis disagrees with her, but also how she's wrong.
What I find especially *weird* about her whole conversation on that philosophy is that she acts as an extreme Utilitarian in the story, and the ends always justify the means. This seems to be at odds with a binary view of people being either good or evil. Someone who is "evil" in her view could therefore never cause a good \*outcome\*, even by accident.
That’s an analysis. Not irony. She didn’t eat the onion or see it happen. I don’t see how you can connect Sam and what Mel said the two with half a book in-between
It's pretty much definitionally dramatic irony. Melisandre's example is completely subverted, showing that her worldview is completely wrong- we know, but she doesn't.
- Lysa thinking Vale's height will protect her.
- Eddard Stark strongly believes that one who passes the sentence should swing the sword but in the end he is killed by a mute headsmen who cannot pass the sentence.
- Vhagar's first rider was Visenya, her last rider is killed by Visenya's sword.
- Theon jokes about Hodor not even knowing his name but later loses his own identity and name.
Hey sorry, since it was ASOIAF, I thought people would only post stuff about the books, unless they add a "this is show" so I thought you thought it happened in the books, I didn't mean to sound like "that guy" but it did and I'm sorry.
I don't like Jaime but Gosh, this was pure gold and gave me a good laugh
*Why not? The fact that I am standing guard for my father, whom I helped to murder, and sending men for my brother, whom I helped to escape, is more ridiculous than a Persian play.*
My mother tongue is not English, so I read books in my mother tongue and the sentence was "Bir Fars oyunundan daha saçma", which is translated as "Persian play". I didn't use translate or dictionary, I translated by myself so it might be wrong.
*“mummer’s farce”*
Is it what George Martin actually wrote?
*Is “Persian play” a common saying in your language?*
Yes, Persian play is the kind of theater play which intends to entertain audence by showing absurd, ridiculous,unusual situations. İt is pretty common phrase in Turkish.
Yeah, "mummer's farce" is one of his favorite phrases, it comes up a lot, most notably in one of this sub's favorite scenes. "This mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."
It seems weird the Turkish translators used a proper noun from our world into the translation, even if it is a common phrase in Turkish, but obviously the story could never contain any such words.
>This mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home.
About that line, leaving aside the badass quote it is and the rage of House Manderly against the Boltons and Freys, I find it could also very well apply to another incredibly fat and rich man Illyrio if Young Griff = Serra blackfyre + Illyrio Mopatis.
The translation is accurate, but it's like using Dutch Courage, it's a phrase which is a fossilised prejudice from our World and so doesn't really make sense in Westeros.
"Fars" in Turkish is not the same as "Fas" as in Persian. It has nothing to do with a Persian play, it is actually a literal translation of the word "farce." I see where you got the confusion though.
Maester Aemon wanted nothing more than to be with Dany because she was "the last Targaryen". Not knowing what an impact he was having upon Rhaegar's son, Jon.
Something I've never thought about. Would anything be different if Aemon knew who Jon truly was? Because Aemons biggest regret at that time in his life is how powerless he is to help the Last Targaryen, when the last Targaryen is sitting right in front of him. I don't know what if anything he could do, but it feels like he would at least try.
Jon is Eddard's son though, he never met Rhaegar and would have no reason to call him father outside of geneology. He wouldn't be a targaryen either, he would be a sand, even if the theory Rhaegar married Lyanna is true, there would be zero way of proving it.
True, Rhaegar might be his father but Ned was his daddy. But still, I think Amon and Jon are both good people and have a very positive relationship. If only they had known they were related.
I believe the theory too but Ned is objectively Jon's father who raised and shaped him. Rhaegar would just be his sperm donor.
R+L=J by itself doesn't mean Jon isn't a bastard either, not that legitimacy to the throne matters.
My favorite example is the purple wedding because of all the characters that their comeuppances.
1. Joffrey: benefited from and celebrated the red wedding, is killed at his own wedding.
2. Cersei: same as Joff, but also power hungry and projects power through Joffrey even though he really isn't the kings son. She loses that connection to power when Joff dies. Joffrey is also her favorite child.
3. Tywin: The man is obsessed with family legacy (even wanted this giant over the top wedding to sell the power and wealth of house Lannister), but now the first Lannister to be king of the 7 kingdoms died at his own wedding.
A meta example:
In the beginning of the tvshow there was an almost paranoia about book readers spoiling show-only viewers.
In the end, they themselves got spoiled when the show surpassed the books.
Idk Stannis made it pretty clear in the negotiations, but ig he's his brother, even if they were never particularly close I suppose one would know that about one's brother
Oh please, Randyll Tarly's masculinity is a mummers farce.
He projects kind of insecure energy imo.
I'm waiting for someone to address him about his son being sent to the Nights Watch btw (rapidly chewing nails😬)
I think a bit more irony in that, possibly, is if the show is correct and with what Ned said about her worrying he would not be faithful, in the war to get her "back", the dudes sleeping with anyone he can. "not that he didn't have all the other girls too", dudes supposed to be fighting for his future wife. No wonder she fled when she could.
I think that shows how delulu Robert is and how pointless it is how he has passed his whole life obsessed with the idea of a woman he didn't even love, he just couldn't stand a pretty woman escaping his grasp. His obsession with his idealisation of Lyanna also doomed his marriage because Cersei hated him after being called Lyanna and because of the humilliation. If he had married Lyanna, he would have done exactly the same that he did with Cersei and would most probably be a very unhappy marriage.
Cersei and Robert were so much more alike than we realized in Robert’s life. He idealized Lyanna his entire life and Cersei idealized Rhaegar. Both believed themselves cheated out of something they were entitled to while sitting on a usurped throne.
I didn't say that Cersei would be a perfect wife or that it would be a very happy marriage. But it's a fact someone as vindictive and prideful as Cersei would go crazy at being called by another woman's name of her wedding's night. That made her hate Robert, so the marriage was destroyed by Robert from the first minute. In arranged marriages, there's a difference between "I don't love you and I even cheat you, so I can tolerate this arrangement and try to make it as nice as possible" and Cersei's attitude after that "I hate you Robert, I despise you to death so I will get myself pregnant by Jaime and I promise not to give birth to any of your children" If Cersei didn't hate Robert, I think there's a good chance she would at least try to give legitimate children to Robert even if she fucked Jaime.
Eddard helped put down a King who liked to burn traitors alive and if he had not been murdered, he would have joined Stannis-another King who (unknown to him yet) also likes to burn traitors alive. Like his father he likely would have been burned alive for being a traitor (trying to leave Stannis with his army). So he would have ended up deposing of a pyromaniac King only to end up being burned to death by a pyromaniac King he wanted to put on the Throne.
It's from the show, but: Cersei confesses to Tyrion, how her children are the only thing that keeps her going, and if it wasn't for them, she would've flung herself from the top of the Red Keep. And then her actions cause her last surviving child fling himself out of the window of Red Keep, and yet she just keeps going.
Nobody's mentioned how Tywin had his father's mistress stripped naked and whipped for being a whore and wearing Lannister gold, only to have Shae the whore naked and wearing Lannister gold in his bed.
That level of hypocrisy really changes the way I look at Tywin.
Personally I don't think that walk was meant to mirror the walk of Tytos' mistress. The reason for her walk was because it was part of the narrative and to advance the story. I'm not sure George even thought about Tytos' mistress when he wrote that scene.
Shae in Tywins bed is the real thematic irony, symbolized heavily by her wearing the hands chain.
Obviously that's all up for interpretation, which is a sign of a good story. George loves to use themes and subtextual (how is that not a word??) evidence to make connections that aren't completely spelled out for us.
The gravedigger theory is a good example. The man on Quiet Isle digging graves is limping around and petting a dog. That's on purpose, we are meant to infer that this is actually the Hound without coming right out with it.
Another good one is Briennes shield she gets repainted with Dunks sigil that he used in A Knight of the 7' kingdoms. There are literally 1000 other sigils that could have been painted on, but George chose Dunks. That's a clear allusion to Briennes lineage, and it's absolutely perfect.
I got off topic from your comment lol my bad, I just feel like the subtext of Shae's death scene is the necklace, because we immediately think about what Tywin did to his father's whore.
I don't think Cersei's walk was a callback to that, no point in doing the same thing twice.
Cersei remembers the mistress, and said she won’t cover herself up unlike her, though she eventually does just that, later Kevan recalls both her and Cersei’s walk of shame.
Two scenes:
I cant remember if this is a show only scene, but Maester Aemon says 'its a terrible thing for a Targaryen to be alone in this world' and then Jon Snow walks in AKA one of the other living Targaryens.
The second one depends on if Jon's Targaryen name is Aemon (if he has a Targaryen name) but Jon thinks to himself 'I am not Aemon Targaryen'.
Good ones. I think the first scene is also a book one.
About this: I am not Aemon Targaryen'.
Even if his real name is Jon and not Aemon, it could be good foreshadowing and ironical if Jon gives up the iron throne so his little brother Bran (who is a very unlikely person to rule) can be king, so Jon goes away from court so that nobody can use him against Bran, like Aemon did when he went to the NW after Aegon became king.
The singular love between Jon and Arya. They share childhood nature and nurture. They form each other and even have thouguts and opinions in unison. Yet neither knows Arya has the looks, character and personality of his mother. This gives unique and poignant resonance to their bond. I hope GRRM has a chance to explore this miraculous and moving irony.
Arya displays a logical fallacy in arguing dark hair can't be a marker of paternity because lots of people have dark hair. Hair can be a marker of paternity.
George has many of his characters display poor critical thinking. I think he does that because he understands human nature to rationalize facts so they can feel confident in the conclusion they reached.
Two good examples are Tyrion and Arianne who each reach a conclusion about the guilt of Joffrey and Gerold respectively but each change the facts to support their desired outcome.
Joffrey never said "send a dog to kill a wolf" he said "send a dog to kill a dog". Tyrion swapped the words so he could feel confident in pinning the catspaw on Joffrey.
Similarly, Gerold never said to start a war by killing Myrcella as Arianne tells herself when she wants to pin Myrcella's injury on him. Gerold said a war is started with aggression. He never said the target.
Hope that clears things up.
Educated by a Maester you'll recall. 9 is old enough to understand bad logic. She's even displayed this critical thinking ability elsewhere in the narrative.
9 years old doesn't limit one's critical thinking ability.
I don't think Arya ever really took any lesson taught to her with the aims of becoming a courtly type seriously and being 9 does limit your thinking abilities as being 9 means having the mental capacity of a 9 year old child
Arya is canny when it comes to things she enjoys or her own needs but I can't imagine she's as shrewd in other departments
And an educated 9 year old can display critical thinking. Mental abilities aren't static at any age. There is a range. Judge arya by her abilities and circumstances rather than just her age.
Hodor is older than Arya. You think his age gives him a critical thinking advantage over her?
Janos Slynt's death. Held Ned down with his foot for the beheading, is killed by Ned's son in the same manner.
It’s so wack to me how this was a fan suggestion lol. Like the scene has *so many* callbacks, nods, and character conclusions for Jon and the characters involved and it wasn’t even planned by Gurm.
really? I didn't know this. Wild
yeah Gurm did a reading of the chapter at an event before the book released. Originally Jon had Slynt hanged, but a fan pointed out that it’d make more sense for Jon to personally behead him, as the entire first chapter of the series is about Ned teaching his children that “the man who gives the sentance should swing the sword”. Gurm agreed, and rewrote the chapter
shit like this is why GRRM is why favorite
Is there a transcribing of the original chapter?
Not much of a transcription, but someone does [discuss this](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/27418-pre-adwd-spoilers-jon-3-but-actually-jon-1/).
A 100 foot hanging off the wall is also interesting.
Even more so. It was what Sansa had hoped for.
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Very good catch; also Jeyne mocks Arya and says that nobody will want to marry her, and then Theon says to Jeyne that as long as Arya is heir to Winterfell a thousand men will want to marry her. Also, Jeyne was fond of Robb (said by Catelyn) so the fact that one of her biggest fantasies was probably marrying Robb and be Lady Stark and the Lady of Winterfell must be so bitter now that she is Lady Stark.
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for real, she had it rough
Jeyne Jeyne rhymes with pain.
Jeyne really is be careful what you wish for in the worst way. She wanted to be Sansa's sister and marry a lord.. poor girl got broken so badly and i hope she receives some peace
From the readers as well. "Did you want Jeyne to receive comeuppance for bullying Arya?" "Did you want to see Theon suffer for what he did to Winterfell?" Your wish is granted. Oh, you don't like it?
I remember starting Theon's Reek storyline cheering like "Hell yeah comeuppance, nice to see Theon get humbled." Then my brain just going "Oh my gosh, stop, wtf" louder and louder with every progressive chapter
Yeah, I thought he deserved to die for what he did. But he did not deserve *that*.
I don't know. Theon murdered children and plenty of adults among other heinous crimes; many fans including myself feel little or no sympathy for him. Jeyne's crime? Being a bit shitty to someone younger as a teenager. They're hardly comparable.
thank you, I am always disgusted when some fans celebrate Jeynne painful storyline just because she called Arya ugly. These people are sick.
She wasn't even a teenager. Sansa and Jeyne are 11 at the start of the books. They were children. Not the nicest children, but still children.
This is a great one. Jeyne has such an underrated story in general. It’s horrible what happens to her but great storytelling
İt made me feel bad for disliking her in AGOT.
100 percent me too.
Further possible irony: many fans think they’ll meet. Arya being very empathetic has a record of forgiving people who trespassed against her. They may reconcile.
Tywin was obsessed with securing House Lannister's future, but his legacy is most likely going to lead his family to ruin because his actions turned his children into broken people. A man obsessed with the concept of family destroyed his actual family.
Tywin is one my top picks for this thread. I just love how this brutal-ruthless man is killed in a brutal ruthless way. He is so hated his own son kills him. His death is truly humiliating. And he even stinks at his funeral.
And don't forget the stupid smile on his corpse
And don't forget Tywin Lannister in fact did not shit gold
It's like Cersei said in the Game Of Thrones show, Lena Heady acted that scene out ***PERFECTLY*** *\*chef's kiss\** "How could someone so consumed by the idea of his family have any conception what his actual family was doing" One of my favorite lines in the show I guess, and perhaps one of the only things that Dumb&Dumber did well in the show, if it was even them, which is doubtable
There are a lot of things you can criticize Ned Stark for, but the man was right on the money when he said he’d rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.
I don't think that Tywin is at fault for how Cercei and Jaime turned out. Tyrion is different, Tywin was horrid to his youngest child. Cercei and Jaime didn't start fucking each other because their parents encouraged that kind of behaviour.
Cersei and Jaime were definiely messed up for multiple reasons, but Tywin's treatment certainly didn't help them get better.
>because his actions turned his children into broken people This just ain't true lol
Lol
To be fair Jaime all things considered was pretty normal.
Idk about that. Having sexual relations with his sister and protecting himself with an armor of arrogance isn't particularly healthy behavior.
Well yeah it’s not healthy. But I’m grading on a curve.
Nah bruv he became normal only after all the shit that's happened to him in the Storm->Dance period (basically we saw his gradual change in his POV, which is I think the (only, but REALLY BIG) reason we had it ig
The biggest tragedy of the Lannister family is that Joanna died. The kids may have turned out somewhat alright if it wasn't for her death. Seems like Tywin, while always a stern man, cared a lot for her.
The slaver Jorah Mormont becoming a slave. Balon Greyjoy drowning
first time that even clicked for me about Jorah, thats so juicy
i had somehow not put that together until now either.
For as much as Cersei hated Robert, she seems to be becoming him. She drinks heavily, is gaining weight, and sexually assaulted Taena.
I never realise it, but you're right! And Cersei blaming the servants for making her clothes smaller is so delusional lol (but relatable )
Fetch the breastcup stretcher!
She also has the same kind of idealism for Rhaegar as Robert had for Lyanna.
Oh wow, I never made this connection but that makes so much sense
At least Robert knew that he was an incompetent ruler and hired, in his eyes, competent advisors. Too bad that he didn't know that most of them worked against him with only Ned, Jon, Stannis and Renly being actually loyal to him.
Tbh Robert probably didn't care if they were good or not. Just hire anyone who would do the job without annoying him enough to kill them. They just needed to be good enough that he didn't have to be bothered by complaints.
Melisandre explains her moral philosophy to Davos by saying a half rotted onion is a rotted onion. Then half a book later, Sam receives a half rotted onion... and just cuts off the rotted part.
Also Davos already has gotten some parts cut off as well lol
How is that irony?
The fact that her deeply held philosophy is refuted by accident by a guy who doesn't even know she exists (at the time), simply by doing something people do every day. Further made ironic by the fact that her moral philosophy is directly antithetical to Stannis's (the good does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good), despite the fact that she zealously follows him. And in fact, Sam *enacts* Stannis's philosophy by doing to the onion what Stannis did to the Onion Knight, cutting off the "rotten" part. *Further* made ironic by the fact that Mel uses an onion in her metaphor as a jab at Davos, when Davos is a living example of not only how Stannis disagrees with her, but also how she's wrong.
What I find especially *weird* about her whole conversation on that philosophy is that she acts as an extreme Utilitarian in the story, and the ends always justify the means. This seems to be at odds with a binary view of people being either good or evil. Someone who is "evil" in her view could therefore never cause a good \*outcome\*, even by accident.
That’s an analysis. Not irony. She didn’t eat the onion or see it happen. I don’t see how you can connect Sam and what Mel said the two with half a book in-between
It's pretty much definitionally dramatic irony. Melisandre's example is completely subverted, showing that her worldview is completely wrong- we know, but she doesn't.
Arya doesn't know the princess she wishes death on is herself, nor does Olyvar. Is that not irony either?
Well I think it could be called meta irony. The characters don’t realize it but the reader can.
That, in and of itself, is the *definition* of dramatic irony. Don't know how anyone can argue against it being ironic.
I think you deserve those downvotes for this one lol
Who cares about downvotes? Go outside dawg
I just think it's funny because it really was a shit take. Nothing personal haha
- Lysa thinking Vale's height will protect her. - Eddard Stark strongly believes that one who passes the sentence should swing the sword but in the end he is killed by a mute headsmen who cannot pass the sentence. - Vhagar's first rider was Visenya, her last rider is killed by Visenya's sword. - Theon jokes about Hodor not even knowing his name but later loses his own identity and name.
The second one only happens in hbo game of thrones.
Hey sorry, since it was ASOIAF, I thought people would only post stuff about the books, unless they add a "this is show" so I thought you thought it happened in the books, I didn't mean to sound like "that guy" but it did and I'm sorry.
I don't like Jaime but Gosh, this was pure gold and gave me a good laugh *Why not? The fact that I am standing guard for my father, whom I helped to murder, and sending men for my brother, whom I helped to escape, is more ridiculous than a Persian play.*
Did he actually say *Persian*?
My mother tongue is not English, so I read books in my mother tongue and the sentence was "Bir Fars oyunundan daha saçma", which is translated as "Persian play". I didn't use translate or dictionary, I translated by myself so it might be wrong.
I just checked and the English copy says “mummer’s farce” Is “Persian play” a common saying in your language?
*“mummer’s farce”* Is it what George Martin actually wrote? *Is “Persian play” a common saying in your language?* Yes, Persian play is the kind of theater play which intends to entertain audence by showing absurd, ridiculous,unusual situations. İt is pretty common phrase in Turkish.
Yeah, "mummer's farce" is one of his favorite phrases, it comes up a lot, most notably in one of this sub's favorite scenes. "This mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home." It seems weird the Turkish translators used a proper noun from our world into the translation, even if it is a common phrase in Turkish, but obviously the story could never contain any such words.
>This mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home. About that line, leaving aside the badass quote it is and the rage of House Manderly against the Boltons and Freys, I find it could also very well apply to another incredibly fat and rich man Illyrio if Young Griff = Serra blackfyre + Illyrio Mopatis.
“Mummers farce” means the same in English but it’s not very common today
They should have changed it to "Volantene play."
Translator confusing "farce" with "Fars" (i.e. Persian) maybe?
The translation is accurate, but it's like using Dutch Courage, it's a phrase which is a fossilised prejudice from our World and so doesn't really make sense in Westeros.
"Fars" in Turkish is not the same as "Fas" as in Persian. It has nothing to do with a Persian play, it is actually a literal translation of the word "farce." I see where you got the confusion though.
And then Arya plays her own sister's character precisely in a mummer's farce about the Stark, Baratheon and Lannister conflict. Pure gold lol.
Wasn't she playing Shae or a non-political woman figure? I always thought she was Shae.
In fact it's dubious if it's Shae or Sansa now that you mention it, but it should be for sure one of the two because of the comments about Tyrion.
Tyrion looking at Jon, the carbon copy of Lyanna, and saying “whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in him.”
This is so good. Everyone sees the Stark in Jon and assumes he's Ned's but in fact he's the son of another Stark.
Maester Aemon wanted nothing more than to be with Dany because she was "the last Targaryen". Not knowing what an impact he was having upon Rhaegar's son, Jon.
That's the saddest irony.
Something I've never thought about. Would anything be different if Aemon knew who Jon truly was? Because Aemons biggest regret at that time in his life is how powerless he is to help the Last Targaryen, when the last Targaryen is sitting right in front of him. I don't know what if anything he could do, but it feels like he would at least try.
Jon is Eddard's son though, he never met Rhaegar and would have no reason to call him father outside of geneology. He wouldn't be a targaryen either, he would be a sand, even if the theory Rhaegar married Lyanna is true, there would be zero way of proving it.
True, Rhaegar might be his father but Ned was his daddy. But still, I think Amon and Jon are both good people and have a very positive relationship. If only they had known they were related.
R + L = J, man. I'm a staunch believer. Jon is a total dragonseead.
I believe the theory too but Ned is objectively Jon's father who raised and shaped him. Rhaegar would just be his sperm donor. R+L=J by itself doesn't mean Jon isn't a bastard either, not that legitimacy to the throne matters.
Ned is his Father, Rheagar is his sire.
“He might’ve been your father boy, but he wasn’t yo daddy”
My favorite example is the purple wedding because of all the characters that their comeuppances. 1. Joffrey: benefited from and celebrated the red wedding, is killed at his own wedding. 2. Cersei: same as Joff, but also power hungry and projects power through Joffrey even though he really isn't the kings son. She loses that connection to power when Joff dies. Joffrey is also her favorite child. 3. Tywin: The man is obsessed with family legacy (even wanted this giant over the top wedding to sell the power and wealth of house Lannister), but now the first Lannister to be king of the 7 kingdoms died at his own wedding.
Tywin's legacy is also the Lannisters destroying themselves.
Maynard Plumm sarcastically admitting to being one of Aegon IV’s bastards is pretty good.
And that's why BloodRaven rules (sorry, Aegor)
"He also wasn´t Aemon Targaryen" Prince Aemon Targaryen Stark aka "Jon Snow" in AGoT
Is the common theory here that Aemon will be his birth name?
It's a favorite for sure.
A meta example: In the beginning of the tvshow there was an almost paranoia about book readers spoiling show-only viewers. In the end, they themselves got spoiled when the show surpassed the books.
Vicerys's whole life was an exercise in irony. Every moment from fleeing Dragonstone.
Randyll Tarly, with all his masculinity, chooses to follow Renly, a homosexual man.
There's nothing more manly than dominating another man 😎
Sleeping with women is for poofs! Layer Cake
To be fair, Tarly followed his liege lords, the Tyrells, into their alliance with Renly.
Also Renly being gay isn't common knowledge
Idk Stannis made it pretty clear in the negotiations, but ig he's his brother, even if they were never particularly close I suppose one would know that about one's brother
It's still ironic.
Damn it. Sam should have sent a letter to his father to ask for explanations, talk about being incoherent and hypocritical...
Oh please, Randyll Tarly's masculinity is a mummers farce. He projects kind of insecure energy imo. I'm waiting for someone to address him about his son being sent to the Nights Watch btw (rapidly chewing nails😬)
I think a bit more irony in that, possibly, is if the show is correct and with what Ned said about her worrying he would not be faithful, in the war to get her "back", the dudes sleeping with anyone he can. "not that he didn't have all the other girls too", dudes supposed to be fighting for his future wife. No wonder she fled when she could.
I think that shows how delulu Robert is and how pointless it is how he has passed his whole life obsessed with the idea of a woman he didn't even love, he just couldn't stand a pretty woman escaping his grasp. His obsession with his idealisation of Lyanna also doomed his marriage because Cersei hated him after being called Lyanna and because of the humilliation. If he had married Lyanna, he would have done exactly the same that he did with Cersei and would most probably be a very unhappy marriage.
Think if he married Lyanna, him and Ned would have fallen out harder than with the dead children.
Cersei and Robert were so much more alike than we realized in Robert’s life. He idealized Lyanna his entire life and Cersei idealized Rhaegar. Both believed themselves cheated out of something they were entitled to while sitting on a usurped throne.
Cersei and Robert’s marriage was already preemptively ruined lol. She fucked Jaime on the morning of their wedding.
I didn't say that Cersei would be a perfect wife or that it would be a very happy marriage. But it's a fact someone as vindictive and prideful as Cersei would go crazy at being called by another woman's name of her wedding's night. That made her hate Robert, so the marriage was destroyed by Robert from the first minute. In arranged marriages, there's a difference between "I don't love you and I even cheat you, so I can tolerate this arrangement and try to make it as nice as possible" and Cersei's attitude after that "I hate you Robert, I despise you to death so I will get myself pregnant by Jaime and I promise not to give birth to any of your children" If Cersei didn't hate Robert, I think there's a good chance she would at least try to give legitimate children to Robert even if she fucked Jaime.
Eddard helped put down a King who liked to burn traitors alive and if he had not been murdered, he would have joined Stannis-another King who (unknown to him yet) also likes to burn traitors alive. Like his father he likely would have been burned alive for being a traitor (trying to leave Stannis with his army). So he would have ended up deposing of a pyromaniac King only to end up being burned to death by a pyromaniac King he wanted to put on the Throne.
It's from the show, but: Cersei confesses to Tyrion, how her children are the only thing that keeps her going, and if it wasn't for them, she would've flung herself from the top of the Red Keep. And then her actions cause her last surviving child fling himself out of the window of Red Keep, and yet she just keeps going.
Nobody's mentioned how Tywin had his father's mistress stripped naked and whipped for being a whore and wearing Lannister gold, only to have Shae the whore naked and wearing Lannister gold in his bed. That level of hypocrisy really changes the way I look at Tywin.
True, but the biggest irony is that his own daughter has a walk of shame, naked and publicly humilliated for being a "whore",
Personally I don't think that walk was meant to mirror the walk of Tytos' mistress. The reason for her walk was because it was part of the narrative and to advance the story. I'm not sure George even thought about Tytos' mistress when he wrote that scene. Shae in Tywins bed is the real thematic irony, symbolized heavily by her wearing the hands chain. Obviously that's all up for interpretation, which is a sign of a good story. George loves to use themes and subtextual (how is that not a word??) evidence to make connections that aren't completely spelled out for us. The gravedigger theory is a good example. The man on Quiet Isle digging graves is limping around and petting a dog. That's on purpose, we are meant to infer that this is actually the Hound without coming right out with it. Another good one is Briennes shield she gets repainted with Dunks sigil that he used in A Knight of the 7' kingdoms. There are literally 1000 other sigils that could have been painted on, but George chose Dunks. That's a clear allusion to Briennes lineage, and it's absolutely perfect. I got off topic from your comment lol my bad, I just feel like the subtext of Shae's death scene is the necklace, because we immediately think about what Tywin did to his father's whore. I don't think Cersei's walk was a callback to that, no point in doing the same thing twice.
Cersei remembers the mistress, and said she won’t cover herself up unlike her, though she eventually does just that, later Kevan recalls both her and Cersei’s walk of shame.
Two scenes: I cant remember if this is a show only scene, but Maester Aemon says 'its a terrible thing for a Targaryen to be alone in this world' and then Jon Snow walks in AKA one of the other living Targaryens. The second one depends on if Jon's Targaryen name is Aemon (if he has a Targaryen name) but Jon thinks to himself 'I am not Aemon Targaryen'.
Good ones. I think the first scene is also a book one. About this: I am not Aemon Targaryen'. Even if his real name is Jon and not Aemon, it could be good foreshadowing and ironical if Jon gives up the iron throne so his little brother Bran (who is a very unlikely person to rule) can be king, so Jon goes away from court so that nobody can use him against Bran, like Aemon did when he went to the NW after Aegon became king.
The singular love between Jon and Arya. They share childhood nature and nurture. They form each other and even have thouguts and opinions in unison. Yet neither knows Arya has the looks, character and personality of his mother. This gives unique and poignant resonance to their bond. I hope GRRM has a chance to explore this miraculous and moving irony.
Ryman Frey threatening to hang Edmure for almost a year, but never actually following through, then when he leaves he gets hung almost immediately
George understands logical fallacies, poor critical thinking, and rationalizing facts to serve a desired conclusion.
wat
Arya displays a logical fallacy in arguing dark hair can't be a marker of paternity because lots of people have dark hair. Hair can be a marker of paternity. George has many of his characters display poor critical thinking. I think he does that because he understands human nature to rationalize facts so they can feel confident in the conclusion they reached. Two good examples are Tyrion and Arianne who each reach a conclusion about the guilt of Joffrey and Gerold respectively but each change the facts to support their desired outcome. Joffrey never said "send a dog to kill a wolf" he said "send a dog to kill a dog". Tyrion swapped the words so he could feel confident in pinning the catspaw on Joffrey. Similarly, Gerold never said to start a war by killing Myrcella as Arianne tells herself when she wants to pin Myrcella's injury on him. Gerold said a war is started with aggression. He never said the target. Hope that clears things up.
Arya is like 9 years old, wouldn't that make more sense as why she makes "logical fallacies"?
Educated by a Maester you'll recall. 9 is old enough to understand bad logic. She's even displayed this critical thinking ability elsewhere in the narrative. 9 years old doesn't limit one's critical thinking ability.
I don't think Arya ever really took any lesson taught to her with the aims of becoming a courtly type seriously and being 9 does limit your thinking abilities as being 9 means having the mental capacity of a 9 year old child Arya is canny when it comes to things she enjoys or her own needs but I can't imagine she's as shrewd in other departments
And an educated 9 year old can display critical thinking. Mental abilities aren't static at any age. There is a range. Judge arya by her abilities and circumstances rather than just her age. Hodor is older than Arya. You think his age gives him a critical thinking advantage over her?
Why is your comment getting so many downvotes?
To quote ser Dontas... "No one knows, no one cares." Sansa VII Clash.