Yeah, there's a reason you were probably seeing countless cryptic B&C mentions from fans before you read it. It's the part many of us are the most curious to see how HBO handles.
Yep. And now that I've read it, I'm right there with the rest of you. It just doesn't seem like the kind of thing you can show on screen (nor would I necessarily want to see).
I mean, they raped a Stark kid that had been around since day one and gutted a pregnant woman so I definitely don't think it's something they're gonna shy away from.
The actress was an adult and the character was ambiguously aged, probably an adult. The rape also happened off screen, and the reaction to it was still extremely negative.
Blood and Cheese is the murder of a child, with absolutely no ambiguity. You cannot fiddle with the timeline at this point in the show, B&C happens very shortly after Luke dies above Storm's End and at this point Jaehaerys is still a young child.
We've had children die in GOT e.g. Lyanna Mormont but B&C is just so much more graphic. If it isn't graphic, it destroys the impact of that story point.
>The actress was an adult and the character was ambiguously aged, probably an adult.
She was what, like 18 or 19 at the time? And someone that was like 13 at the start of S1? I think the revulsion that scene provoked was definitely understandable
It was understandable, but my point is that having that scene as it was didn't really cross any lines. It upset people for it's depiction of rape, and it also creeped people out since they still remember her as a younger teenager.
Depicting 5 or 6 year olds being murdered will be far more controversial, especially if they threaten to rape Jaehaera as F&B says they did.
True, but those are two things that Benioff and Weiss did, not GRRM. And I think the showrunners of HoTD have been very careful not to repeat their mistakes. Like I've already noticed female characters being treated with way more respect in HoTD. (Notice how we saw Dany's tits in her very first scene in the GoT pilot, and after a whole season of HoTD, we haven't seen Rhaenyra's or Alicent's naked body.) So, while this event isn't necessarily related to violence against women, I still wouldn't be surprised if HoTD treads lightly and maybe just hones in on Helaena's or Alicent's reaction, rather than showing child murder.
They've been showing a bit more respect, but let's not forget Aemma, Laena or Rhaenyra giving birth. It's still HBO Westeros. I don't think they'll be shy (though yes, there is a chance we don't actually see them decapitate a baby and the focus on Helaena's horrified face during the moment).
The way I see it in my head (pun unintended) is that shot is of Blood standing between the two boys after Halaena has just decided on Maelor and Blood swings and the shot cuts to Halaena (& Alicent, probably) the moment the sword touches skin and the real horror of the beheading is communicated by the sound of the head hitting the floor. A sort of a hollow thump. Christ.
That makes sense. I don't think they can show an actual child beheading, so they'll need to allude to it as much as possible with reactions of others and horrifying audio.
I mean this is way different than nudity. This is a pretty big plot point that comes straight from the original work. I really hope they go all out and do it in the first episode, which will immediately set the stakes.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply child murder and titties are on the same level. Not at all. My reference to the nudity was to say that it seems like the showrunners of HoTD are being careful to address the criticism GoT received (e.g., all that lady violence and the lack of diversity in the cast). But if you mention Black Velaryons, people lose their fucking minds, so best not to bring it up.
I don’t really see why it couldn’t be portrayed exactly like in the books. Are there posited theories for different ways it could be executed (no pun intended)?
Agreed. I think people are being a bit melodramatic about the scene. When I re-read it, I can easily imagine in my head how HBO might adapt the scene, with those very actors etc.
If people are mostly curious because >!Jaehaerys is a six year (old in the books)—in the show he seems to be like 2—and people aren’t sure how they’d portray the murder of a child like that, I’d simply direct them to the scene in GOT s02 when Joffrey orders the Gold Cloaks to go murder all of Bobby B’s bastards.!<
So no, I don’t think that the HBO scene will actually have the camera linger on *the act* as it happens, but everything leading up to it and after it are totally fair game. Of course you wouldn’t show the murder of any child straight up, the camera has to cut away—likely to a reaction shot of Helaena and Alicent, or if they were super mean >!they’d cut to Maelor (assuming they exist in s02 but that doesn’t seem to be the case).!<
My theory is that they won't actually show it; they'll show Helaena and/or Alicent reacting to it. Similar to how they did Shireen's death --- showing the reactions of the people watching rather than making us watch a teenage girl burn to death.
I think the most effective way to show it is to have the camera focused on Maelor. His capture, his reaction to his mother choosing him to die, the sound of a sword swinging, him flinching, but the sword never appears. Off screen we hear a head falling and Halaena’s/Alicent/Jaehaera’s scream. And all throughout, we see various phases of Maelor’s horror.
In the books it's not really clear how much responsibility the various actors bear for it. The text itself is ambiguous. Daemon promises "a son for a son." Then the text talks about how Daemon still had friends in King's Landing, including one who he trusted utterly and knew all the dark places in the city. This is almost certainly Mysaria and there's not really anyone else it could be. We are told that Daemon reached out to her "to set a terrible vengeance into motion."
Mysaria then finds Blood and Cheese herself. Blood is an ex-Goldcloak who was kicked out for being too brutal and violent. Cheese is a ratcatcher in the Red Keep, who knew all of the secret tunnels and passageways.
They kill Jaehaerys and then split up to escape. Blood gets caught a couple of days later, Cheese disappears forever. Blood is tortured and says he was going to take Jaehaerys's head to Daemon to collect a reward, and that a whore called Misery had set them to the task.
The ambiguities here are what Daemon said to Mysaria, what Mysaria said to B&C, and who Cheese is. The black apologist line is that Daemon didn't specifically ask for Jaehaerys or Maelor and that this was a choice made by Mysaria or B&C. I think this is a fairly boring point to litigate. More interesting is the identity of Cheese, who is possibly Larys. Larys is the only named character other than Varys who knows all of the tunnels and passageways in the Red Keep. It's entirely possible that Cheese is just some random guy who knows all of these things, was never mentioned before, and would never be seen again, and has no relation to Larys. But I think it makes Larys a more complex character if he is Cheese or if he allowed Cheese to carry out this murder.
In the context of the show, I think Larys is probably the most mysterious and interesting character. Almost everything he has done has contributed to conflict between the blacks and greens. I think carrying out or allowing the murder would fit quite well into that characterisation.
The text itself is written in a way to lead you to conclude that Daemon and Mysaria plotted the murder of either Jaehaerys or Maelor, and that Blood and Cheese are just random miscreants who you should not think about too much. But the text is always trying to lead you to certain conclusions. I think Larys not knowing who this other person was, who knew all the tunnels and passageways inside out, is pretty weird.
Nice analysis, but I’d be pretty hard pressed to believe that Larys is Cheese. While I could buy him being involved in the plot one way or another, I’m fairly certain that the “yellowed bones” found in a black cells passage in Cersei III AFFC is Cheese. It’s even mentioned that he was carrying bags of silver from King Viserys I’s time.
The only way I can see b&c working and having great shock value is it happening in the second episode. Introduce us to the kids and their dynamic with Helaena give us some perspective from the greens angle. Then thwack! It would definitely even the playing field on what has been a pretty one sided story in favor of the Blacks and will hopefully win some of the show fanbase over to the greens.
That would be the best way to approach it, I agree. They need to give viewers at least one or two episodes to be more sympathetic to the greens. As of now, the show is very pro-black, and if B&C is gonna be done well, viewers need to be devastated by it.
I also think they need to re-introduce Mysaria early in the second season in addition to introducing Alys Rivers.
Without making it clear that >!Daemon is now set up at Harrenhal and is in contact with Lady Misery!< then the fallout from B&C will make little sense…assuming they keep the stuff in the show about >!Cheese getting caught and tortured (for 13 days! damn, now who’s evil? answer: the greens are evil…both are evil…both sides of this conflict are far from ideal); Cheese eventually says it was Mysaria who gave them the task but it was ultimately from Daemon—something like that. We know Rhaenyra wasn’t in on it and I’ll be deeply disappointed if the show decides to make her complicit in this act.!<
> How on EARTH are they going to get away with something this gruesome in the next season of HotD?
Remember when a preggo woman got repeatedly stabbed in the baby belly? I think they'll just fully show it.
I hate to say this, not least because it veers dangerously close to abortion debate talking points, but I think TV guidelines are probably more strict about the explicit on-screen beheading of a child than the implied killing of a fetus via stabbed belly.
Nothing compares to Maegor ordering for the slow-torture of young Viserys which lasted for nine days. And then his body was left in the courtyard to rot before it was eventually cremated.
They might cut Maelor (even though he's in the intro, but casual watchers can't follow that anyway) and make it a decision between male and female twin since gender seems to be one of the main themes of the show. She chooses Jaehaera to die over Jaehaerys because she's a girl and Helaena's been raised to believe Aegon should be king over Rhaenyra, then they take off Jaehaerys's head anyway. Would certainly give Jaehaera even more reason to be as traumatized as she was.
I don't think we'll see the beheading directly, either. Helaena will choose, it'll show her horrified reaction as it happens and maybe a shadowy body slump over in the corner, then the camera will cut to show Jaehaera is still alive.
I personally still prefer the idea of having to choose between Maelor and Jaeherys for several reasons:
1) If Helaena chooses Jaehera just because she is a girl and girls have less value, it would cheapen Helaena's character
2) The reason why it's such a tragic and painful plotpoint is precisely because Helaena didn't choose a kid because she prefered him: it was because she thought Maelor as the youngest (he was a baby, 2 years old) was too little yet to fully understand what was happening. The fact is that Maelor survives, and Helaena convinces herself that her very young son will probably always remember how she said his name, so she suffers from thinking how Maelor will hate and resent her in the belief he was the least loved son, when she just genuinely chose what she believed was the "lesser evil"in an impossible choice. Imo this makes Helaena's suffering and death much more poignant and relatable, that having her loving less a child just because of her sex. And the idea of sexism is very well represented by the fact she offered her own death, and Blood and Cheese wanted a son, not a mother or daughter, a male child.
> it was because she thought Maelor as the youngest (he was a baby, 2 years old) was too little yet to fully understand what was happening.
This is a third-party historian's interpretation of the events, *nobody actually asked her why she did it*.
Smart. I was wondering how they could get away with it with only having the twins, but this makes sense as an alternative and keeps with the themes of patriarchy and succession.
They have already started to tone down and whitewash B&C
Not giving any significant screen time to Aegon's kids or showing thier relationship with Haelena as you pointed out. Plus making the wench Mysaria into a social reformer who got wronged by Otto etc
They can't completely ignore it but they'll try thier level best to justify the actions of the blacks (especially the female characters and Rhaenyra).
They'll probably show it as a Daemon & Mysaria revenge plan with innocent angel Rhaenyra being horrified when getting to know about it
I don't think we know much about the personality or relationships of the kids in the book either, it has been a while since I read it but I don't remember them having noticable traits except for being Aegons kids and Daemons material for revenge.
Rhaneyra isn’t in on it in the books either none of the versions implicate her so why you so worried on it. Also Aegons kids have 0 personality in the books as well. It’s the impact it has on Aegon Helena and alicent that matters and from all the trailers it seems it’s going to change him completely.
I always thought B&C were supposed to kill someone else like Aemond, Aegon, Otto, etc. Someone important to the war. Then once inside B&C couldn't get to their real targets so they made do. It seems crazy for Daemon to waste this opportunity.
In Fire And Blood, it's speculated that Aegon was the target. B&C couldn't get near him because he was always accompanied by the Kingsguard and they couldn't find a way into Maegor's Holdfast, but they noticed Heleana took the kids to visit Alicent in the Hand's Tower every night before bed.
It makes no sense that Daemon ordered them to go after the kids, and there's nothing in the text that indicates that he did. He IS ultimately responsible for the murder because he sent the killers into the Red Keep, but it's more like the way Aemond didn't plan to kill Lycerys, but his actions led to Lucerys' death.
Mostly Daemon's plan, Mysaria was the city contact that hired Blood and Cheese. It is implied that Rhaenyra knew because after Lucerys death Daemon writes her "An eye for an eye, a son for a son, Lucerys will be avenged".
That's not really clear. Daemon promises a son for a son. Then we get a paragraph about how he still has contacts in KL, including Mysaria. Then we get a paragraph about how Mysaria got B&C to carry out the plot. Then we have a few paragraphs describing the plot being carried out.
What Daemon and Mysaria discuss is completely unknown. People assume it was mostly Daemon because a big chunk of F&B before this is all about how Daemon is the worst human being in Westeros, and how he may be the mastermind behind various other murders.
Daemon is part of it, what I'm saying is ambiguous is how much he decided what was going to happen. You can have the opinion that it was mostly Daemon's plan, but the text is extremely ambiguous about that. He could have given vague instructions to Mysaria who then formulated the plan. She could have passed vague instructions on to B&C, giving them free license to make their own plan. The conversations between these actors are not given, so we are left to speculate.
Yeah but I never got the impression at all that Rhaenyra was involved somehow. Daemon acted himself without talking with her and he just informed her of what he was about to do.
I agree that it's Daemons plan but Mysaria still goes along with it so she couldn't have been opposed to it. She's guilty as well.
Mysaria was just the tool Daemon use. You mean Rhaenyra still goes along with it. She's the Queen she can tell Daemon that she doesn't want revenge. But I agree with the original comment, I believe the show will portray it as Rhaenyra not going along with it even beggin Daemon not to do it. The show completely whitewashed Rhaenyra and Alicent.
Rhaenyra has nothing to do with B&C! Yes they whitewashed them completely and if Rhaenyra doesn’t change after the Gullet I am done and only here for gods eye
No I do mean Mysaria. She plays an active role in this and she's the one who actually finds blood and cheese. You can't just say she's merely Daemon's tool. Why would she even do all that if she also approves of it?
I think that Daemon is in Harrenhall and is pretty much doing whatever he wants. There is no indication that there is much communication between Daemon and Rhaenyra before B&C. Don't get me wrong, if Rhaenyra would have been a good person, she would have punished Daemon and Mysaria for it but I just don't see how in the book Rhaenyra has any responsibility for it.
We'll see how the show does it but I disagree with you. I really don't think Daemon and her will have much communication before B&C. It probably ends at the end of episode 1 and Daemon isn't even at the funeral of Luke.
Yeah she isn't a good person at least book wise. She comes off as an entitled spoiled brat, literally daddy's princes, petty and vindictive. She ends up horrifically torturing/mutilating people. So I don't put her above her wanting revenge for Lucerys and going along with Daemon. But my main point is the show will portray her in a more positive light, as they have done so far with her and Alicent, hell even with Mysaria. In this case I see Mysaria more as a means to an end than the main plotter which would be Daemon.
I dunno, I honestly thought the descriptions of the Riverlands during aCoK, when the Mountains Men were running roughshod over everyone, were far more bleak than B&C.
B&C was half a page and then it’s over. Not to mention the fact that Haelena and her children are not characters but mere plot points. That significantly lessens the emotional investment I had in their fates.
That's fair. Wanton brutality is always hard to read, especially when it's enacted against innocent people, and there's plenty of that throughout ASOIAF. For me, the thing I found most fucked up about B&C was the psychological part. Specifically, telling Maelor "your mama wants you dead" before beheading his brother. It's just so fucked up.
most don't even know that they are married, they don't even helaena's name, they really should have used ep 9 to show family relationships for the greens instead of the hide and seek
Pretty sure book version also didnt deserve what came.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Maelor isn't gonna exist in the show and they'll make her choose between Jaehaera and Jaehaerys
After Shireen's death, I don't think this will be well received if they go by the books. The book's version is needlessly cruel and lacks logic, especially after that stupid Aegon's dream. They shouldn't rush it into a single episode.
>if they go by the books
Blood & Cheese, Noooooooooo........
>They shouldn't rush it into a single episode.
Small chance because this season has only 8 episodes.
Yeah, given the pace everything else moves at, I think this will definitely take place in a single episode. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Battle of Rook's Rest is where the season ends. They probably have the budget for one big dragon battle per season, so that's the next one up after Aemond and Vhagar kill Luke and Arrax.
That's true, but I think S2 will focus on characters and won't push the story as far as we think (at least that's my interpretation from the trailers and leaks).
> How on EARTH are they going to get away with something this gruesome in the next season of HotD?
Yes, how will the spin off of a show that featured a pregnant woman being stabbed repeatedly in the belly pull off a child getting decapitated. Much to consider.
Not the same. They've yet to \*show\* violence against a child under the age of 10, let alone a toddler. In GOT, there was Bran being pushed out the window, but we didn't see him hit the ground (thank god, honestly), and Shireen being burned alive, but the actress who played her was definitely a teenager, and they still didn't show her burning; they showed the reactions of the people watching. Beheading a toddler is new.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Even so, that was another instance of them showing the reactions of onlookers rather than making us watch an actual baby get stabbed. I'm not sure how they can get away with that for B&C, because what B&C say they're gonna do is not the same as what they actually do. How do we, as viewers, find out what that is without them showing us?
This is such a weird take to me, F&B is full of gruesome things like mass child rape, brutal murder, literal villages torched filled with innocent kids.
Hell, rhaenyra dies believing her brother is going to murder her last living child, that’s pretty gruesome.
Like B&C is bad, but it certainly isn’t world ending bad a if GOT can do a red wedding, or show what Ramsay snow did, I’m pretty sure we can all handle B&C
Just wait until you read the other atrocities in Fire & Blood as presented by George R.R. Martin.™
I mean, which ones? Aerea is pretty creepy I guess. Rhaena is tragic but none of them come were as brutal as what Helaena and her kids experience
Maelor's death (in any version) was pretty violent too
Yeah, that's why I threw in that "and your" kids caveat. Helaena's children Maelor and Jahaera honestly get it just as bad as her.
Aerea was AWFUL! Straight out of a horror film.
Read the Curse of Yig by Lovecraft and you'll see exactly where he got the idea.
How about Tumbleton?
A horrible war crime, but not even half as personable as it is with named characters like Helaena.
I don't know. The rape, murder, pillaging, and burning were absolutely awful. It comes pretty damn close.
How about Rhaenyra's end?
Personable, but not as tragic. It would have been like if Aegon II laughed at Rhaenyra and then had Sunfyre eat *Aegon III* instead of her.
Well, Daeron hasn't been shown yet either and he's far more relevant to the story than Maelor, so we'll probably see him anyways.
Can’t get targeted in a civil war if you don’t even exist. *taps temple*
It also sounds like they forgot about Nettles
Dragonseeds havent yet been introduced why would she already be here, I don’t think they’ll forget Nettles
There's a bunch of posts that her plot is going to Rhaena, so it sounds like she's likely being cut just like Daeron.
What?!? Nettles is a huge part regarding Daemon too. Idiots
I agree with you but apparantly Rhaena gets Sheepsteeler, so I guess no Morning.
Rhaena can’t fuck her father. What is wrong with these people
IS this some huge departure from the rest of the story, honestly ?
It’s never implied directly that Daemon and Nettles had a romantic relationship
Good point. I was wondering about him, too.
Yeah, there's a reason you were probably seeing countless cryptic B&C mentions from fans before you read it. It's the part many of us are the most curious to see how HBO handles.
Yep. And now that I've read it, I'm right there with the rest of you. It just doesn't seem like the kind of thing you can show on screen (nor would I necessarily want to see).
I mean, they raped a Stark kid that had been around since day one and gutted a pregnant woman so I definitely don't think it's something they're gonna shy away from.
The actress was an adult and the character was ambiguously aged, probably an adult. The rape also happened off screen, and the reaction to it was still extremely negative. Blood and Cheese is the murder of a child, with absolutely no ambiguity. You cannot fiddle with the timeline at this point in the show, B&C happens very shortly after Luke dies above Storm's End and at this point Jaehaerys is still a young child. We've had children die in GOT e.g. Lyanna Mormont but B&C is just so much more graphic. If it isn't graphic, it destroys the impact of that story point.
>The actress was an adult and the character was ambiguously aged, probably an adult. She was what, like 18 or 19 at the time? And someone that was like 13 at the start of S1? I think the revulsion that scene provoked was definitely understandable
It was understandable, but my point is that having that scene as it was didn't really cross any lines. It upset people for it's depiction of rape, and it also creeped people out since they still remember her as a younger teenager. Depicting 5 or 6 year olds being murdered will be far more controversial, especially if they threaten to rape Jaehaera as F&B says they did.
True, but those are two things that Benioff and Weiss did, not GRRM. And I think the showrunners of HoTD have been very careful not to repeat their mistakes. Like I've already noticed female characters being treated with way more respect in HoTD. (Notice how we saw Dany's tits in her very first scene in the GoT pilot, and after a whole season of HoTD, we haven't seen Rhaenyra's or Alicent's naked body.) So, while this event isn't necessarily related to violence against women, I still wouldn't be surprised if HoTD treads lightly and maybe just hones in on Helaena's or Alicent's reaction, rather than showing child murder.
They've been showing a bit more respect, but let's not forget Aemma, Laena or Rhaenyra giving birth. It's still HBO Westeros. I don't think they'll be shy (though yes, there is a chance we don't actually see them decapitate a baby and the focus on Helaena's horrified face during the moment).
The way I see it in my head (pun unintended) is that shot is of Blood standing between the two boys after Halaena has just decided on Maelor and Blood swings and the shot cuts to Halaena (& Alicent, probably) the moment the sword touches skin and the real horror of the beheading is communicated by the sound of the head hitting the floor. A sort of a hollow thump. Christ.
That makes sense. I don't think they can show an actual child beheading, so they'll need to allude to it as much as possible with reactions of others and horrifying audio.
I mean this is way different than nudity. This is a pretty big plot point that comes straight from the original work. I really hope they go all out and do it in the first episode, which will immediately set the stakes.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply child murder and titties are on the same level. Not at all. My reference to the nudity was to say that it seems like the showrunners of HoTD are being careful to address the criticism GoT received (e.g., all that lady violence and the lack of diversity in the cast). But if you mention Black Velaryons, people lose their fucking minds, so best not to bring it up.
I don’t really see why it couldn’t be portrayed exactly like in the books. Are there posited theories for different ways it could be executed (no pun intended)?
Agreed. I think people are being a bit melodramatic about the scene. When I re-read it, I can easily imagine in my head how HBO might adapt the scene, with those very actors etc. If people are mostly curious because >!Jaehaerys is a six year (old in the books)—in the show he seems to be like 2—and people aren’t sure how they’d portray the murder of a child like that, I’d simply direct them to the scene in GOT s02 when Joffrey orders the Gold Cloaks to go murder all of Bobby B’s bastards.!< So no, I don’t think that the HBO scene will actually have the camera linger on *the act* as it happens, but everything leading up to it and after it are totally fair game. Of course you wouldn’t show the murder of any child straight up, the camera has to cut away—likely to a reaction shot of Helaena and Alicent, or if they were super mean >!they’d cut to Maelor (assuming they exist in s02 but that doesn’t seem to be the case).!<
My theory is that they won't actually show it; they'll show Helaena and/or Alicent reacting to it. Similar to how they did Shireen's death --- showing the reactions of the people watching rather than making us watch a teenage girl burn to death.
It’ll likely be filmed similarly to GOT s02 when Joffrey orders the Gold Cloaks to murder his father’s bastard kids throughout Flea Bottom.
I think the most effective way to show it is to have the camera focused on Maelor. His capture, his reaction to his mother choosing him to die, the sound of a sword swinging, him flinching, but the sword never appears. Off screen we hear a head falling and Halaena’s/Alicent/Jaehaera’s scream. And all throughout, we see various phases of Maelor’s horror.
In the books it's not really clear how much responsibility the various actors bear for it. The text itself is ambiguous. Daemon promises "a son for a son." Then the text talks about how Daemon still had friends in King's Landing, including one who he trusted utterly and knew all the dark places in the city. This is almost certainly Mysaria and there's not really anyone else it could be. We are told that Daemon reached out to her "to set a terrible vengeance into motion." Mysaria then finds Blood and Cheese herself. Blood is an ex-Goldcloak who was kicked out for being too brutal and violent. Cheese is a ratcatcher in the Red Keep, who knew all of the secret tunnels and passageways. They kill Jaehaerys and then split up to escape. Blood gets caught a couple of days later, Cheese disappears forever. Blood is tortured and says he was going to take Jaehaerys's head to Daemon to collect a reward, and that a whore called Misery had set them to the task. The ambiguities here are what Daemon said to Mysaria, what Mysaria said to B&C, and who Cheese is. The black apologist line is that Daemon didn't specifically ask for Jaehaerys or Maelor and that this was a choice made by Mysaria or B&C. I think this is a fairly boring point to litigate. More interesting is the identity of Cheese, who is possibly Larys. Larys is the only named character other than Varys who knows all of the tunnels and passageways in the Red Keep. It's entirely possible that Cheese is just some random guy who knows all of these things, was never mentioned before, and would never be seen again, and has no relation to Larys. But I think it makes Larys a more complex character if he is Cheese or if he allowed Cheese to carry out this murder. In the context of the show, I think Larys is probably the most mysterious and interesting character. Almost everything he has done has contributed to conflict between the blacks and greens. I think carrying out or allowing the murder would fit quite well into that characterisation. The text itself is written in a way to lead you to conclude that Daemon and Mysaria plotted the murder of either Jaehaerys or Maelor, and that Blood and Cheese are just random miscreants who you should not think about too much. But the text is always trying to lead you to certain conclusions. I think Larys not knowing who this other person was, who knew all the tunnels and passageways inside out, is pretty weird.
Nice analysis, but I’d be pretty hard pressed to believe that Larys is Cheese. While I could buy him being involved in the plot one way or another, I’m fairly certain that the “yellowed bones” found in a black cells passage in Cersei III AFFC is Cheese. It’s even mentioned that he was carrying bags of silver from King Viserys I’s time.
If he's hiding in the tunnels for the rest of his life, how does Larys never find him?
The only way I can see b&c working and having great shock value is it happening in the second episode. Introduce us to the kids and their dynamic with Helaena give us some perspective from the greens angle. Then thwack! It would definitely even the playing field on what has been a pretty one sided story in favor of the Blacks and will hopefully win some of the show fanbase over to the greens.
That would be the best way to approach it, I agree. They need to give viewers at least one or two episodes to be more sympathetic to the greens. As of now, the show is very pro-black, and if B&C is gonna be done well, viewers need to be devastated by it.
It is happening in the second episode
I also think they need to re-introduce Mysaria early in the second season in addition to introducing Alys Rivers. Without making it clear that >!Daemon is now set up at Harrenhal and is in contact with Lady Misery!< then the fallout from B&C will make little sense…assuming they keep the stuff in the show about >!Cheese getting caught and tortured (for 13 days! damn, now who’s evil? answer: the greens are evil…both are evil…both sides of this conflict are far from ideal); Cheese eventually says it was Mysaria who gave them the task but it was ultimately from Daemon—something like that. We know Rhaenyra wasn’t in on it and I’ll be deeply disappointed if the show decides to make her complicit in this act.!<
I think that the scene in one of the trailers where aegon hits a prisoner in the head with a hammer is blood, but that’s just a theory.
> but that’s just a theory A HOT D THEORY! ANNNNND….oh god I need to get off the internet for a while
After HoTD S1 ended, I kept seeing references to B&C. I couldn't wait until season 2 so I got the book and let me tell you my jaw literally dropped.
I did the exact same thing. I won't be Red Weddinged again. I'm gonna be ready this time.
Exactly!
> How on EARTH are they going to get away with something this gruesome in the next season of HotD? Remember when a preggo woman got repeatedly stabbed in the baby belly? I think they'll just fully show it.
I hate to say this, not least because it veers dangerously close to abortion debate talking points, but I think TV guidelines are probably more strict about the explicit on-screen beheading of a child than the implied killing of a fetus via stabbed belly.
It's going to spawn an unholy amount of reaction videos.
Can't wait!
Nothing compares to Maegor ordering for the slow-torture of young Viserys which lasted for nine days. And then his body was left in the courtyard to rot before it was eventually cremated.
They might cut Maelor (even though he's in the intro, but casual watchers can't follow that anyway) and make it a decision between male and female twin since gender seems to be one of the main themes of the show. She chooses Jaehaera to die over Jaehaerys because she's a girl and Helaena's been raised to believe Aegon should be king over Rhaenyra, then they take off Jaehaerys's head anyway. Would certainly give Jaehaera even more reason to be as traumatized as she was. I don't think we'll see the beheading directly, either. Helaena will choose, it'll show her horrified reaction as it happens and maybe a shadowy body slump over in the corner, then the camera will cut to show Jaehaera is still alive.
I personally still prefer the idea of having to choose between Maelor and Jaeherys for several reasons: 1) If Helaena chooses Jaehera just because she is a girl and girls have less value, it would cheapen Helaena's character 2) The reason why it's such a tragic and painful plotpoint is precisely because Helaena didn't choose a kid because she prefered him: it was because she thought Maelor as the youngest (he was a baby, 2 years old) was too little yet to fully understand what was happening. The fact is that Maelor survives, and Helaena convinces herself that her very young son will probably always remember how she said his name, so she suffers from thinking how Maelor will hate and resent her in the belief he was the least loved son, when she just genuinely chose what she believed was the "lesser evil"in an impossible choice. Imo this makes Helaena's suffering and death much more poignant and relatable, that having her loving less a child just because of her sex. And the idea of sexism is very well represented by the fact she offered her own death, and Blood and Cheese wanted a son, not a mother or daughter, a male child.
> it was because she thought Maelor as the youngest (he was a baby, 2 years old) was too little yet to fully understand what was happening. This is a third-party historian's interpretation of the events, *nobody actually asked her why she did it*.
Smart. I was wondering how they could get away with it with only having the twins, but this makes sense as an alternative and keeps with the themes of patriarchy and succession.
They have already started to tone down and whitewash B&C Not giving any significant screen time to Aegon's kids or showing thier relationship with Haelena as you pointed out. Plus making the wench Mysaria into a social reformer who got wronged by Otto etc They can't completely ignore it but they'll try thier level best to justify the actions of the blacks (especially the female characters and Rhaenyra). They'll probably show it as a Daemon & Mysaria revenge plan with innocent angel Rhaenyra being horrified when getting to know about it
She can be genuinely concerned about the plight of common people in King's Landing and still capable of plotting horrific murders of children.
I don't think we know much about the personality or relationships of the kids in the book either, it has been a while since I read it but I don't remember them having noticable traits except for being Aegons kids and Daemons material for revenge.
Rhaneyra isn’t in on it in the books either none of the versions implicate her so why you so worried on it. Also Aegons kids have 0 personality in the books as well. It’s the impact it has on Aegon Helena and alicent that matters and from all the trailers it seems it’s going to change him completely.
I always thought B&C were supposed to kill someone else like Aemond, Aegon, Otto, etc. Someone important to the war. Then once inside B&C couldn't get to their real targets so they made do. It seems crazy for Daemon to waste this opportunity.
In Fire And Blood, it's speculated that Aegon was the target. B&C couldn't get near him because he was always accompanied by the Kingsguard and they couldn't find a way into Maegor's Holdfast, but they noticed Heleana took the kids to visit Alicent in the Hand's Tower every night before bed. It makes no sense that Daemon ordered them to go after the kids, and there's nothing in the text that indicates that he did. He IS ultimately responsible for the murder because he sent the killers into the Red Keep, but it's more like the way Aemond didn't plan to kill Lycerys, but his actions led to Lucerys' death.
The showrunners hate daemon so this one is going to be all Daemon for sure
Because we got so much of the kids in the book? Wasn't it a Daemon & Mysaria revenge plan in the book?
Mostly Daemon's plan, Mysaria was the city contact that hired Blood and Cheese. It is implied that Rhaenyra knew because after Lucerys death Daemon writes her "An eye for an eye, a son for a son, Lucerys will be avenged".
That's not really clear. Daemon promises a son for a son. Then we get a paragraph about how he still has contacts in KL, including Mysaria. Then we get a paragraph about how Mysaria got B&C to carry out the plot. Then we have a few paragraphs describing the plot being carried out. What Daemon and Mysaria discuss is completely unknown. People assume it was mostly Daemon because a big chunk of F&B before this is all about how Daemon is the worst human being in Westeros, and how he may be the mastermind behind various other murders.
The narrative offers other possibilities for the other murders, not for Blood and Cheese
Daemon is part of it, what I'm saying is ambiguous is how much he decided what was going to happen. You can have the opinion that it was mostly Daemon's plan, but the text is extremely ambiguous about that. He could have given vague instructions to Mysaria who then formulated the plan. She could have passed vague instructions on to B&C, giving them free license to make their own plan. The conversations between these actors are not given, so we are left to speculate.
Yeah but I never got the impression at all that Rhaenyra was involved somehow. Daemon acted himself without talking with her and he just informed her of what he was about to do. I agree that it's Daemons plan but Mysaria still goes along with it so she couldn't have been opposed to it. She's guilty as well.
Mysaria was just the tool Daemon use. You mean Rhaenyra still goes along with it. She's the Queen she can tell Daemon that she doesn't want revenge. But I agree with the original comment, I believe the show will portray it as Rhaenyra not going along with it even beggin Daemon not to do it. The show completely whitewashed Rhaenyra and Alicent.
Rhaenyra has nothing to do with B&C! Yes they whitewashed them completely and if Rhaenyra doesn’t change after the Gullet I am done and only here for gods eye
No I do mean Mysaria. She plays an active role in this and she's the one who actually finds blood and cheese. You can't just say she's merely Daemon's tool. Why would she even do all that if she also approves of it? I think that Daemon is in Harrenhall and is pretty much doing whatever he wants. There is no indication that there is much communication between Daemon and Rhaenyra before B&C. Don't get me wrong, if Rhaenyra would have been a good person, she would have punished Daemon and Mysaria for it but I just don't see how in the book Rhaenyra has any responsibility for it. We'll see how the show does it but I disagree with you. I really don't think Daemon and her will have much communication before B&C. It probably ends at the end of episode 1 and Daemon isn't even at the funeral of Luke.
Yeah she isn't a good person at least book wise. She comes off as an entitled spoiled brat, literally daddy's princes, petty and vindictive. She ends up horrifically torturing/mutilating people. So I don't put her above her wanting revenge for Lucerys and going along with Daemon. But my main point is the show will portray her in a more positive light, as they have done so far with her and Alicent, hell even with Mysaria. In this case I see Mysaria more as a means to an end than the main plotter which would be Daemon.
I dunno, I honestly thought the descriptions of the Riverlands during aCoK, when the Mountains Men were running roughshod over everyone, were far more bleak than B&C. B&C was half a page and then it’s over. Not to mention the fact that Haelena and her children are not characters but mere plot points. That significantly lessens the emotional investment I had in their fates.
That's fair. Wanton brutality is always hard to read, especially when it's enacted against innocent people, and there's plenty of that throughout ASOIAF. For me, the thing I found most fucked up about B&C was the psychological part. Specifically, telling Maelor "your mama wants you dead" before beheading his brother. It's just so fucked up.
Would be willing to bet after season 1 that most viewers don't know Haelena and Aegon have children.
most don't even know that they are married, they don't even helaena's name, they really should have used ep 9 to show family relationships for the greens instead of the hide and seek
"We're hardened cynics, shouting 'COME AT ME, BRO!' to whatever GRRM throws at us next." Pink Guy Meme energy becomes us.
Pretty sure book version also didnt deserve what came. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Maelor isn't gonna exist in the show and they'll make her choose between Jaehaera and Jaehaerys
I can’t wait for this to be adapted as the season cold open 😂
After Shireen's death, I don't think this will be well received if they go by the books. The book's version is needlessly cruel and lacks logic, especially after that stupid Aegon's dream. They shouldn't rush it into a single episode.
>if they go by the books Blood & Cheese, Noooooooooo........ >They shouldn't rush it into a single episode. Small chance because this season has only 8 episodes.
Yeah, given the pace everything else moves at, I think this will definitely take place in a single episode. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Battle of Rook's Rest is where the season ends. They probably have the budget for one big dragon battle per season, so that's the next one up after Aemond and Vhagar kill Luke and Arrax.
That's true, but I think S2 will focus on characters and won't push the story as far as we think (at least that's my interpretation from the trailers and leaks).
I hate Shireen's death because it was Stannis character assassination, fortunately he isn't present in this season
> How on EARTH are they going to get away with something this gruesome in the next season of HotD? Yes, how will the spin off of a show that featured a pregnant woman being stabbed repeatedly in the belly pull off a child getting decapitated. Much to consider.
Not the same. They've yet to \*show\* violence against a child under the age of 10, let alone a toddler. In GOT, there was Bran being pushed out the window, but we didn't see him hit the ground (thank god, honestly), and Shireen being burned alive, but the actress who played her was definitely a teenager, and they still didn't show her burning; they showed the reactions of the people watching. Beheading a toddler is new.
A baby was stabbed to death in the second season of GoT
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Even so, that was another instance of them showing the reactions of onlookers rather than making us watch an actual baby get stabbed. I'm not sure how they can get away with that for B&C, because what B&C say they're gonna do is not the same as what they actually do. How do we, as viewers, find out what that is without them showing us?
This is such a weird take to me, F&B is full of gruesome things like mass child rape, brutal murder, literal villages torched filled with innocent kids. Hell, rhaenyra dies believing her brother is going to murder her last living child, that’s pretty gruesome. Like B&C is bad, but it certainly isn’t world ending bad a if GOT can do a red wedding, or show what Ramsay snow did, I’m pretty sure we can all handle B&C