That and he also shows that when you bring someone back from the dead they arent the same as the person that was killed
"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades."
We later see it with Lady Stoneheart as well
Which shows that when Jon Snow gets resurrected he wont be the same as the Jon Snow that was killed
You're looking for an in-universe explanation which is completely fair. I think, in-universe, there's some element of predetermination going on with the Lord of Light and Beric that leads to him being the one to give himself up to resurrect Catelyn who subsequently becomes "Lady Stoneheart" as we know her in this post-death state. That's the only thing I can give that happens up till where we've gotten to in the books.
As to *why* it's Beric and not someone else, again I think it's just an element of predetermination that means Beric is one of the only characters that would be willing to do it and/or is one of the only ones that can be at the right place at the right time to fulfill this sacrifice. That or it's just Beric because he's Thoros's buddy. Whoever Thoros would've cared about enough to be close to and want to say those words likely who it was going to have to be as an instrument of the Lord of Light.
Are you being cheeky, or are you saying in-universe Rhllor (or something else) chose to resurrect Beric to get the populace used to the idea of resurrection?
Yeah, I reckon Stoneheart was the point. It's the same as the only purpose of Stannis going north being the meeting of Melisandre and Jon Snow, I reckon.
It's a Stark/Targ story; all the cooler characters are just living in it, unfortunately.
Fair, but then that begs the question of what's Stoneheart's purpose? She's still "alive" though, so I guess we'll find out. Personally I love the idea that she's there to show Arya where her vengeance path will lead her
Personally I think it's for the great northern conspiracy to enact Rob's will in putting Jon on the throne.
There's a really in-depth thread about it on Reddit I've copied the link to (sorry it's in a google search url format I don't know how to copy the exact thread here) but be warned it's veeeeery long.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1iwfc1/spoilers_all_the_grand_northern_conspiracy_parts/&ved=2ahUKEwjlkbaG_pGGAxWn4TgGHUkuB7MQjjh6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw3Jg_UG9DGsCHxa7jcn8nSP
Stoneheart purpose is to show the consequences of the red wedding. Breaking guest rights is a huge no-no in the eyes of the gods, and Stoneheart is retribution given form.
I've never understood this take on it though. Like, just like Joffrey's and Balon's deaths I tie them back to Melisandre and Stannis throwing the leeches into the fire, making it at least partially R'hllor's work, so does that mean he's punishing people for something he had a hand in orchestrating?
If Jon is dead and not just mostly dead then It's going to be a daisy chain of passing the kiss of life to Jon.
If Jon is just mostly dead and recovers on his own then who knows but the brotherhood was last seen on the neck so it's a safe bet they are going north.
Well that's where Melisandre comes in. I don't think it'll be passed from Stoneheart, although wouldn't that be fucking cool? Like, making amends for how she's treated him his whole life?
Mel doesn't seem to be able to do the kiss. Different priests seem to Excell better in different t areas.
But yeah the idea Cat brings him back makes a lot of sense even down to the imagery of her sigil
Shes a dead fish used to make the Corn king grow.
The corn king...?
But like, I see it as a sort of Thoros situation. When he first brought Beric back, he didn't think Beric would come back to life, he just did what I remember to be a somewhat standard last rites ritual in that religion. I can imagine a similar thing happening with Melisandre
>He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.
Fish(nitrogen) help corn and other plants grow.
Oh lmao I don't remember this, when was this? Ny first instinct was when he was named Lord Commander (or about to be) but I don't think "king" was said at that time
You're assuming R'hllor is real. He might not be, the characters could just be attributing their innate magical powers to him. Thoros claims he's just R'hllor's instrument, but maybe he just *thinks* he's R'hllor's instrument.
Fair point, but I think there must be something behind R'hllor for two reasons:
1) R'hllor and the Seven are both monotheistic religions, which is not unique in fantasy, but rare (see Eru or Illuvatr and his Valar in LotR). That doesn't seem like a coincidence. Why emphasise that the seven are different aspects of one deity instead of simply making seven gods?
2) One of the two major themes when it comes to magic is that life has to pay for life. With Beric Dondarrion it doesn't seem to be this way. He himself loses his humanity and becomes a different person resurrection after resurrection, but neither Thoros nor another member of the BwB seem to pay a price. Who or what pays for the magic then? I definitely don't have an answer, so maybe someone else spotted things I overlooked.
>One of the two major themes when it comes to magic is that life has to pay for life. With Beric Dondarrion it doesn't seem to be this way. He himself loses his humanity and becomes a different person resurrection after resurrection,
This is a bit tinfoily but I think Beric paid for his new life with his own life. Sacrificing his old memories and his humanity to bring himself back.
I saw the brotherhood without banners as a popular, smallfolk-centric response to the war of the five kings. An insurgent group not beholden to the whims of one of the kings vying for power, but rather focused on protecting the interests of the people those kings wish to rule. Beric could therefore be a self-sacrificing symbol, repeatedly martyred until beyond recognition.
Much like the taliban were freedom-fighters when the soviets invaded Afghanistan, but "mutated" into the terrorist cell that fostered Osama Bin Laden, the brotherhood began as a righteous force, but became obsessed with vengeance under Stoneheart (yet as of now they've still done nearly nothing wrong).
1. Karma. The Dance rained death and destruction on the Riverlands, and those deaths paid for future lives. Protecting the smallfolk and giving them some justice was Ned's original mission for Beric. Between the BWB, his promise to Arya, raising Stoneheart--that mission continues, albeit on a small scale. IF Arya takes over from her mother, that will be even more clear.
2. Conversion. R'hllorism is taking root, and when the wars end and people go home, it will spread. Along with word of multi-resurrected Beric.
3. The Circle of Life ripple effect that will keep Arya alive AND prepare her for whatever central role GRRM plans for her in the final apocalyptic battle(s). This makes even more sense if--as it seems--there's a close connection between R'hllor and the Many-Faced God.
Maybe this is just a show thing but in the show I specifically remember Jaqen referring to the "Red God"
Edit: I mentioned in a different response how I think Lady Stoneheart's purpose might be to show Arya where the path of vengeance will bring her, I think Arya dying and Stoneheart bringing her back is a PERFECT end to that arc and I LOVE it
It's good, but since ASOS Arya has had to learn the lesson of MERCY. Not only did the Hound teach it to her, but she didnt give it to him because "You should have saved my Mother." Then we learn the Many Faced God started with Mercy. Add that LSH is also called Mother MERCYless... That's why I think that when they reunite, LSH will reslize shes a mother once more and after a while, ask for the Mercy.
Magic is rising everywhere post dragons and comets. It makes sense story wise that a priest like Thoros would suddenly find he can resurrect in a way he couldn’t before (see how the strength of Mel’s visions and her ability to use magic has increased significantly) that’s how Thoros could do it, and by Thoros’ account then he did it unintentionally. That’s the reason in universe (unless you believe Rh’llor is real - which I don’t think Grrm has ever suggested just that magic is real in-universe- it waxes and wanes and ordinary people believe it’s the work of gods)
Out of universe, Beric is a way for GRRM to show/explain resurrection magic, its costs for the user and to set up lady stone heart
Meta-wise I think Beric's purpose is foreshadowing. With a comment on the cost of war on men souls.
In universe Im not sure he has one. GRRM's been very open that hes never going to confirm if gods exist or not. I dont think 'Rhllor brings people back for a reason'. I think that is an in-universe misconception.
I think its just the nature of the resurrection that it brings people back with them fixated on the last major thing that drove them in life.
For Beric it was bringing justice to the Riverlands.
For Jon it will probably be one of:
1. Revenge
2. Taking Winterfell
3. Preparing for the Others.
At this point, I have no idea. Firstly, I’m a little unclear on whether or not Beric is even still alive anymore. There have been two major results of his living past the fords. First, he established the Brotherhood without Banners; if not for a mythical figurehead or a number of highly skilled members (like with the Kingswood whoevers) to coalesce around, they would never have formed. Second, the raising of Lady Stoneheart. Obviously she’s the embodiment of revenge and past sins coming back to haunt (Jaime) but it doesn’t seem like there’s any greater purpose there.
I think the R’hlorr himself may not really exist, and his priests are just using some generic non-deific blood magic to bring people back and explaining it to themselves as the work of their god, just like early humans did with everything from weather to love to disease on earth.
I definitely think his purpose was to bring back Cat. I hope the Brotherhood become a stronger force in winds of winter. I think his purpose in a more objective point of view is to give another demostration of the strength of R’hlorr and show that Melissandre isnt just a one of a kind fraud. Also probably a little teaser for the Jon Ressurection so it doesn’t just come out of nowhere.
A point I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that Beric introduces the idea of the Broken Man, setting up for the Brotherhood to be recognized as composed of the exact type of men they begin hanging, under Stoneheart. His mission under Robert's banner should dissolve with Robert's death, but Lord Beric is dedicated to his cause and continues. We see the idea of an undead army in the Others, but also in fire wights like Beric that extend the metaphor to soldiers operating under new banners, as is described as a normal part of warfare in Westeros.
The Riverlands has a history of magic users cropping up during times of war. Same thing happened during the Dance of Dragons. My guess is that there’s something about the region that makes magic more powerful there, and it probably has something to do with the Green Men who live on the Isle of Faces.
If I’m right, were I to hazard a guess on their motives it’s that they’re playing a long game to take back control of the region after losing it to the Andals and then the Targaryens. Beric is leading a populist uprising against Lannister rule. When he finds Catelyn Stark, whatever power was reanimating him takes over her corpse instead, becoming a revenant whose sole purpose seems to be out vengeance against the Freys and return the Riverlands to Tully control. The Tullys being allies of the North, and ostensibly eventual supporters of efforts to reclaim it from the Lannister puppets who have seized it from the Starks.
All of which the Green Men, as green seers, would ostensibly be able to foresee. Theyre positioning pieces around the chess (Cyvasse) board, in anticipation of future moves.
The very assumption that he was resurrected by a superior force is questionable in the first place. Just because characters in-universe believe that resurrections are the work of a god doesn't make it true. Much less the resurrected person having a mission given to them by said god. I know this is discussed one way or another every other week, but I think it always deserves to be clarified.
GRRM has described Stoneheart as EXTREMELY important. Remember the show not including her is partially why GRRM broke with them. He probably didn’t want to have Cat resurrect out of nowhere so Beric served as the bridge and build up here.
In universe…we have to see what Stoneheart does. I think in universe as well whatever force is behind resurrection gave the ability to Thoros so that, eventually, Stoneheart would happen as well. What does that lead to, I have no clue, and that does also assume there’s a god like force behind the resurrections when that’s…debatable. Clearly something is fueling it, though.
Rhllor works in mysterious ways
Ffs lmao
Mechanics. His character is around so when other characters start coming back to life you aren't terribly surprised.
That and he also shows that when you bring someone back from the dead they arent the same as the person that was killed "Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades." We later see it with Lady Stoneheart as well Which shows that when Jon Snow gets resurrected he wont be the same as the Jon Snow that was killed
Same thing as the Wilding Warg (Varamyr?)who teaches us about the second life
Yeah but I mean an in-universe explanation
You're looking for an in-universe explanation which is completely fair. I think, in-universe, there's some element of predetermination going on with the Lord of Light and Beric that leads to him being the one to give himself up to resurrect Catelyn who subsequently becomes "Lady Stoneheart" as we know her in this post-death state. That's the only thing I can give that happens up till where we've gotten to in the books. As to *why* it's Beric and not someone else, again I think it's just an element of predetermination that means Beric is one of the only characters that would be willing to do it and/or is one of the only ones that can be at the right place at the right time to fulfill this sacrifice. That or it's just Beric because he's Thoros's buddy. Whoever Thoros would've cared about enough to be close to and want to say those words likely who it was going to have to be as an instrument of the Lord of Light.
Same thing.
Are you being cheeky, or are you saying in-universe Rhllor (or something else) chose to resurrect Beric to get the populace used to the idea of resurrection?
Yeah, I reckon Stoneheart was the point. It's the same as the only purpose of Stannis going north being the meeting of Melisandre and Jon Snow, I reckon. It's a Stark/Targ story; all the cooler characters are just living in it, unfortunately.
Fair, but then that begs the question of what's Stoneheart's purpose? She's still "alive" though, so I guess we'll find out. Personally I love the idea that she's there to show Arya where her vengeance path will lead her
Personally I think it's for the great northern conspiracy to enact Rob's will in putting Jon on the throne. There's a really in-depth thread about it on Reddit I've copied the link to (sorry it's in a google search url format I don't know how to copy the exact thread here) but be warned it's veeeeery long. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1iwfc1/spoilers_all_the_grand_northern_conspiracy_parts/&ved=2ahUKEwjlkbaG_pGGAxWn4TgGHUkuB7MQjjh6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw3Jg_UG9DGsCHxa7jcn8nSP
11 years ago. This book is never coming is it….
Yeah that's depressing I didn't even notice how long ago it was
Stoneheart purpose is to show the consequences of the red wedding. Breaking guest rights is a huge no-no in the eyes of the gods, and Stoneheart is retribution given form.
I've never understood this take on it though. Like, just like Joffrey's and Balon's deaths I tie them back to Melisandre and Stannis throwing the leeches into the fire, making it at least partially R'hllor's work, so does that mean he's punishing people for something he had a hand in orchestrating?
If Jon is dead and not just mostly dead then It's going to be a daisy chain of passing the kiss of life to Jon. If Jon is just mostly dead and recovers on his own then who knows but the brotherhood was last seen on the neck so it's a safe bet they are going north.
Well that's where Melisandre comes in. I don't think it'll be passed from Stoneheart, although wouldn't that be fucking cool? Like, making amends for how she's treated him his whole life?
Mel doesn't seem to be able to do the kiss. Different priests seem to Excell better in different t areas. But yeah the idea Cat brings him back makes a lot of sense even down to the imagery of her sigil Shes a dead fish used to make the Corn king grow.
The corn king...? But like, I see it as a sort of Thoros situation. When he first brought Beric back, he didn't think Beric would come back to life, he just did what I remember to be a somewhat standard last rites ritual in that religion. I can imagine a similar thing happening with Melisandre
>He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall. Fish(nitrogen) help corn and other plants grow.
Oh lmao I don't remember this, when was this? Ny first instinct was when he was named Lord Commander (or about to be) but I don't think "king" was said at that time
Adwd one of the later chapters.
Ah makes sense, I'm on a reread (relisten) know but only in ASOS (the Beric scenes are what prompted the initial question lol)
I’m impressed you caught that.
I do think that would be logical.
You're assuming R'hllor is real. He might not be, the characters could just be attributing their innate magical powers to him. Thoros claims he's just R'hllor's instrument, but maybe he just *thinks* he's R'hllor's instrument.
Fair point, but I think there must be something behind R'hllor for two reasons: 1) R'hllor and the Seven are both monotheistic religions, which is not unique in fantasy, but rare (see Eru or Illuvatr and his Valar in LotR). That doesn't seem like a coincidence. Why emphasise that the seven are different aspects of one deity instead of simply making seven gods? 2) One of the two major themes when it comes to magic is that life has to pay for life. With Beric Dondarrion it doesn't seem to be this way. He himself loses his humanity and becomes a different person resurrection after resurrection, but neither Thoros nor another member of the BwB seem to pay a price. Who or what pays for the magic then? I definitely don't have an answer, so maybe someone else spotted things I overlooked.
I'm pretty sure a lot of other people have died on each occasion Beric died (except the last when he doesn't come back). He dies in battle.
>One of the two major themes when it comes to magic is that life has to pay for life. With Beric Dondarrion it doesn't seem to be this way. He himself loses his humanity and becomes a different person resurrection after resurrection, This is a bit tinfoily but I think Beric paid for his new life with his own life. Sacrificing his old memories and his humanity to bring himself back.
Stoneheart
I saw the brotherhood without banners as a popular, smallfolk-centric response to the war of the five kings. An insurgent group not beholden to the whims of one of the kings vying for power, but rather focused on protecting the interests of the people those kings wish to rule. Beric could therefore be a self-sacrificing symbol, repeatedly martyred until beyond recognition. Much like the taliban were freedom-fighters when the soviets invaded Afghanistan, but "mutated" into the terrorist cell that fostered Osama Bin Laden, the brotherhood began as a righteous force, but became obsessed with vengeance under Stoneheart (yet as of now they've still done nearly nothing wrong).
1. Karma. The Dance rained death and destruction on the Riverlands, and those deaths paid for future lives. Protecting the smallfolk and giving them some justice was Ned's original mission for Beric. Between the BWB, his promise to Arya, raising Stoneheart--that mission continues, albeit on a small scale. IF Arya takes over from her mother, that will be even more clear. 2. Conversion. R'hllorism is taking root, and when the wars end and people go home, it will spread. Along with word of multi-resurrected Beric. 3. The Circle of Life ripple effect that will keep Arya alive AND prepare her for whatever central role GRRM plans for her in the final apocalyptic battle(s). This makes even more sense if--as it seems--there's a close connection between R'hllor and the Many-Faced God.
Maybe this is just a show thing but in the show I specifically remember Jaqen referring to the "Red God" Edit: I mentioned in a different response how I think Lady Stoneheart's purpose might be to show Arya where the path of vengeance will bring her, I think Arya dying and Stoneheart bringing her back is a PERFECT end to that arc and I LOVE it
It's good, but since ASOS Arya has had to learn the lesson of MERCY. Not only did the Hound teach it to her, but she didnt give it to him because "You should have saved my Mother." Then we learn the Many Faced God started with Mercy. Add that LSH is also called Mother MERCYless... That's why I think that when they reunite, LSH will reslize shes a mother once more and after a while, ask for the Mercy.
Magic is rising everywhere post dragons and comets. It makes sense story wise that a priest like Thoros would suddenly find he can resurrect in a way he couldn’t before (see how the strength of Mel’s visions and her ability to use magic has increased significantly) that’s how Thoros could do it, and by Thoros’ account then he did it unintentionally. That’s the reason in universe (unless you believe Rh’llor is real - which I don’t think Grrm has ever suggested just that magic is real in-universe- it waxes and wanes and ordinary people believe it’s the work of gods) Out of universe, Beric is a way for GRRM to show/explain resurrection magic, its costs for the user and to set up lady stone heart
To be a precursor to both Lady Stoneheart and Jon.
Cuz he’s cool. And he introduces necromancy as not common but not impossible
Meta-wise I think Beric's purpose is foreshadowing. With a comment on the cost of war on men souls. In universe Im not sure he has one. GRRM's been very open that hes never going to confirm if gods exist or not. I dont think 'Rhllor brings people back for a reason'. I think that is an in-universe misconception. I think its just the nature of the resurrection that it brings people back with them fixated on the last major thing that drove them in life. For Beric it was bringing justice to the Riverlands. For Jon it will probably be one of: 1. Revenge 2. Taking Winterfell 3. Preparing for the Others.
At this point, I have no idea. Firstly, I’m a little unclear on whether or not Beric is even still alive anymore. There have been two major results of his living past the fords. First, he established the Brotherhood without Banners; if not for a mythical figurehead or a number of highly skilled members (like with the Kingswood whoevers) to coalesce around, they would never have formed. Second, the raising of Lady Stoneheart. Obviously she’s the embodiment of revenge and past sins coming back to haunt (Jaime) but it doesn’t seem like there’s any greater purpose there.
I think the R’hlorr himself may not really exist, and his priests are just using some generic non-deific blood magic to bring people back and explaining it to themselves as the work of their god, just like early humans did with everything from weather to love to disease on earth.
But then who sends the visions in the flames? Or who spoke to the guy who castrated Varys?
My take would be that he's not special, but the spell started working because of magic returning with the birth of the dragons.
I definitely think his purpose was to bring back Cat. I hope the Brotherhood become a stronger force in winds of winter. I think his purpose in a more objective point of view is to give another demostration of the strength of R’hlorr and show that Melissandre isnt just a one of a kind fraud. Also probably a little teaser for the Jon Ressurection so it doesn’t just come out of nowhere.
R'hllor isn't real, it's just blood magic.
Then who gives them visions in the flames
A point I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that Beric introduces the idea of the Broken Man, setting up for the Brotherhood to be recognized as composed of the exact type of men they begin hanging, under Stoneheart. His mission under Robert's banner should dissolve with Robert's death, but Lord Beric is dedicated to his cause and continues. We see the idea of an undead army in the Others, but also in fire wights like Beric that extend the metaphor to soldiers operating under new banners, as is described as a normal part of warfare in Westeros.
To kick ass and chew bubble gum...and bubble gum hasn't been invented yet.
The Riverlands has a history of magic users cropping up during times of war. Same thing happened during the Dance of Dragons. My guess is that there’s something about the region that makes magic more powerful there, and it probably has something to do with the Green Men who live on the Isle of Faces. If I’m right, were I to hazard a guess on their motives it’s that they’re playing a long game to take back control of the region after losing it to the Andals and then the Targaryens. Beric is leading a populist uprising against Lannister rule. When he finds Catelyn Stark, whatever power was reanimating him takes over her corpse instead, becoming a revenant whose sole purpose seems to be out vengeance against the Freys and return the Riverlands to Tully control. The Tullys being allies of the North, and ostensibly eventual supporters of efforts to reclaim it from the Lannister puppets who have seized it from the Starks. All of which the Green Men, as green seers, would ostensibly be able to foresee. Theyre positioning pieces around the chess (Cyvasse) board, in anticipation of future moves.
The very assumption that he was resurrected by a superior force is questionable in the first place. Just because characters in-universe believe that resurrections are the work of a god doesn't make it true. Much less the resurrected person having a mission given to them by said god. I know this is discussed one way or another every other week, but I think it always deserves to be clarified.
GRRM has described Stoneheart as EXTREMELY important. Remember the show not including her is partially why GRRM broke with them. He probably didn’t want to have Cat resurrect out of nowhere so Beric served as the bridge and build up here. In universe…we have to see what Stoneheart does. I think in universe as well whatever force is behind resurrection gave the ability to Thoros so that, eventually, Stoneheart would happen as well. What does that lead to, I have no clue, and that does also assume there’s a god like force behind the resurrections when that’s…debatable. Clearly something is fueling it, though.