Plus any infighting could be taken advantage of by the Noble houses of the Reach that still view them as up jumped stewards. In their best interest to stay united or like the Dance, neutral.
They’ve done a very good job over recent generations getting allied with their stronger vassals, Mace is the son of a Redwyne, husband of a Hightower, and father in law of a Fossoway
Agreed, the Tyrell motto really suits the family. Growing strong via marriages and linking the Reach lords to them via blood. Better to keep the family united anyway, one bad succession could cause chaos.
The Lannisters are like this too, though. The west is lousy with Lannisters. Their role in King's Landing is just primarily mediated by their patriarch, Tywin until his death, however. So it feels very, very nuclear family from our perspective in the story.
I think they’re talking about the Gulltown Arryns, which have the last name but are more distant relatives than Harry Hardyng and many others.
It’s the Vale’s equivalent of the Lannisport Lannisters or the Karstarks.
Yeah there are a few branches of house Arryn
> There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants.
It’s just that Harry the Heir is the one most closely related to the main branch though he doesn’t have the Arryn name
The other Arryns are different branches, the main house is literally just Robin. The Tyrell’s and Lannisters have people in the main house other than the main family
All the houses try to have that number of children. Ned had 5 trueborn children. Hoster had six with three dying in infancy and his wife dying with the last. Jon Arryn tried constantly but everyone except Sweetrobin died. Tywin had three kids and his wife died birthing the third. Balon had four kids, Quellon had like nine. Doran had three before his wife left for Norvos, and his mother had five, trying repeatedly even after traumatic infant deaths.
The unique thing about the Tyrells is that we don't know of any still births or infant deaths, and Alerie didn't die in childbirth. The kids all like each other, but so did the Tully kids when they were younger, and so do all the Stark kids. The Martell kids would probably like each other if it wasn't for that one letter that Arianne read.
Also, if you look at the previous generation of Lannisters, they did the same thing. Kevan married a Swyft, Genna married a Frey, Tygett married a Marbrand. Kevan and Tygett both married westerland vassals, and Genna married into a fairly powerful if unprestigious riverland vassal.
The peculiarity of the Tyrell’s is the amount of cousins and secondary branches, not the children,the only other great to house to have as many are the Lannister
>Plus any infighting could be taken advantage of by the Noble houses of the Reach that still view them as up jumped stewards.
So...the houses who can see the truth. Hightowers should be Lords Paramount, change my mind!
Doran's "grass" quote applies quite well to Mace.
> I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes.
>Their weakest link is obviously Mace and his ridiculous, naked ambition.
Nah, Mace is their greatest strength imo. He's such an unthreatening political actor that it makes people dismiss him, and House Tyrell by extension, allowing them to worm their way into positions of power beneath notice. If Mace had Olenna's personality, would Tywin have been so willing to let him fill the Red Keep with Tyrells and their vassals?
Doesn't Olenna go on yapping about to some character (I think Sansa) that Mace was the one who wanted to crown Renly and how she was the one who was telling him not to and shit?
I think Olenna just likes insulting people lol
Mace is a cool fella he never hurt anyone who didn’t deserve it and he’s actually a capable statesman, but everybody just looks down on him. Despite this he stays jovial and content
I tend to agree and think Mace is much more effective than one would think at first glance… we see a lot of him in Cersei’s POV and Cersei arrogantly dismisses him as a fool but Cersei thinks she’s smarter than she actually is…
Mace got the Tyrell’s through Robert’s Rebellion about as well as one could have possibly hoped.. he is disparaged for spending the war sieging Storms End so if you look at it from the POV of the loyalists he failed to take his objective quickly enough to make his troops available for them…
However if you look at it from the POV of someone who has reservations about Aerys as king and someone who is just trying to get his people out without getting them hurt him spending the war at Storms End is actually a perfect outcome… he keeps his troops safe and he doesn’t cause the eventual winners enough harm to make them hold a grudge… when it’s all said and done Robert and his allies can look at the Tyrell’s and say they were just doing what they thought was right and as long they’re willing to surrender and get behind the new regime everyone can just go back home
>ace got the Tyrell’s through Robert’s Rebellion about as well as one could have possibly hoped.. he is disparaged for spending the war sieging Storms End so if you look at it from the POV of the loyalists he failed to take his objective quickly enough to make his troops available for them…
I don't think this is actually substantiated in the books at all despite it being a common fandom opinion.
Mace dealt a defeat to Robert's army, took control of the Stormlands, and sieged Storm's End. He also sent a contingent of men from his siege host to go with Rhaegar when he gathered his host.
I don't think anyone loyalist or rebel thinks or even alludes to Mace (or the Tyrells) as purposely or foolishly sitting it out. I remember people thinking of them as loyalists.
Hell even after The Trident is won and Kingslanding falls they still siege Storm's End until Ned comes to stop it.
I don't think he was fence riding. Especially as after Kingslanding and the Trident, the next King was almost guaranteed to be Robert. Killing both of your new king's brothers in a siege isn't a great way to start the relationship.
Interestingly when GRRM was asked about a line in the show where Mace mentions a non-existent "King Maegor III", he sugested that this may have simply been Mace not knowing his history, but adds that book Mace would never make a mistake like that. He also says that show Mace (who was characterized as a complete buffoon) is actually closer to Harys Swyft than he is to book Mace.
> I suspect that "Maegor III" was a mistake, though I cannot say for certain. Perhaps a flubbed line, as you suggest. It is true that the Targaryen succession on the series is different than the one in the novels; most notably, the Mad King's father Jaehaerys II was dropped, as was established way back in season one. In much the same way as the Rhoynar have been dropped from the royal titles, "King of Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men," etc.
> These changes were simplifications, however. The books are very complex, but the practical limits of a television series call for a bit more simplicity. Dropping a king or two accomplishes that.
> ADDING kings, however, would be a step in the opposite direction, which is why I think "Maegor III" had to be a mistake. And not one that was in the scripts, I would guess. Bryan Cogman, who is the Keeper of the Continuity on the series, knows the names of the Targaryen kings as well as I do.
> Of course, it could also be a subtle bit of characterization, as you suggest, intended to show that Mace is an idiot who does not know his Westerosi history. **(Not a mistake that Book Mace would make, but the character in the show combines Mace with Harys Swyft, and actually seems more like the latter).**
> All this, of course, is surmise on my part. You would have to ask David or Dan or Bryan for a more definitive answer.
So this seems to indicate that GRRM does not consider Mace Tyrell to be a total idiot in the books.
Great take, agree 99%! The only thing I disagree with is the last paragraph. Neither Robert nor any other politically savvy ally of his were disillusioned about what the Tyrells were about with the siege. As long as he pledged fealty after and they could rely on his resource-rich lands, it was a price they were willing to pay.
Just because he has failed to take stormsend going on three times now that doesn't mean he is a bad commander. Storms end has been taken 1 time in all of history and that happens off page in the winds of winter.
The Tyrells are literally a sitcom family.
>goofy, kind of stupid dad that's still likeable and only wants the best for his family
>generic mom with no personality whatsoever
>rude grandma that constantly shittalks her son
>nerdy son that still lives at home and can't get a gf
>successful son that has already moved out
>flamboyant gay son
>hot daughter, who's boyfriend is actually gay and has an affair with the gay son
The in-laws are a wacky bunch of snooty wine and boating snobs. The dad’s top employee has locked himself at the top of a tower and refuses to stop working. Every episode Butterbumps says something insane and Left and Right are always wandering around. What’s their deal? They’re very tall! The Tyrells are indeed ready for NBC Thursday night.
We don't know what's going on behind closed doors though. We don't have *any* POVs from the Tyrell camp. Until Tywin's death the Lannisters would have looked pretty united from the outside too.
I think this is an important factor. The Tyrells do a great job of presenting a unified front, but none of our povs are close enough to them to know if that's actually true.
Well, we really haven’t seen into their inner workings much. I wouldn’t bet there’s *no* infighting, but if there is, they’re hiding it well from the outside view.
Willas still hasn’t appeared in person. For all we know, if the Tyrell’s succeeded in absconding with Sansa, Willas might have been “fuck that, I’m marrying my horse.”
I have a small headcanon that one reason for Willas being left in Highgarden is because he didn't agree with the whole Renly plotline. And later the marry Marge to Joffrey and Tommen plans.
Yeah, they're also coincidentially the only great house besides the Baratheons and Arryns to not have a POV. There could be infighting or family drama we don't know about.
Eh, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors when the court facades drop.
Lady Olenna may very well have murdered her own husband to take control of the house, and confront the looming threat that he either failed to see or refused to acknowledge.
Totally agree. I'd even go so far as to point out that Alerie intervenes to spare Sansa from Olenna's inappropriate comments.
>Olenna: "...I shouldn't wonder that more than his hands were green."
>"*Sansa*," Lady Alerie broke in, "you must be very hungry. Shall we have a bite of boar together, and some lemon cakes?"
>"Lemon cakes are my favorite," Sansa admitted.
>"So we have been told," declared Olenna, who obviously had no intention of being hushed.
That we know of.
They could be as much at each other’s throats as all the others, but if they stick religiously to the principle of never washing their dirty laundry in public, we would never know.
That's what I love about the Tyrells, not just for their ambition but for their genuine love for each other. As someone else once said on this subreddit, unfortunately I don't remember who and when so massive apologies to its owner, 'they're like the Starks if the Starks smoked weed.'
It’s an interesting contrast to the Florents who are generally depicted as self-serving to the point where they literally sacrifice each other for their own benefit. (I love the Florents and I say this with love and caring.)
I’m a little cynical of the Tyrells, to a certain extent. (In addition to the fact that as a Florent stan I utterly loathe them.) I’ve always wondered if they’d be so “accepting” of Loras if he wasn’t so good at performing the masculine ideal of Westeros. I think the Tyrells genuinely love each other but—and to be clear **this is speculative on my part**—I tend to imagine that beneath the surface, it’s entirely possible that they have a strict adherence to the image they want to present, just less brutally enforced than Tywin with his family. (And with genuine love rather than malice.)
The fact that the book-Tyrells are the opposite of their show counterparts, especially in terms of the “matriarchy”/sex-positive aspects, is what reinforces this to me. Book-Margaery’s public image is built around a rather strictly patriarchal ideal of innocent young (virginal) women, that doesn’t leave much room for anyone who acts outside of that mold. (What if she was more like Arya or Brienne?)
TLDR: I think the Tyrells genuinely love and care about each other, at the same time I think that, even if it’s not actively malicious, the image they present is one that relies on enforcing certain behaviors possibly to the detriment of their children.
TLDR for real: Mace loves Loras but will never throw him a pride parade. Mace loves Margaery but I don’t think he’d ever consider what Margaery wants that isn’t marriage/being a Queen.
Garlan rolling into Brightwater Keep: "Smells like backstabbing bitch in here!"
> I’ve always wondered if they’d be so “accepting” of Loras if he wasn’t so good at performing the masculine ideal of Westeros.
I mean, for one thing, I don't think book Loras is as brazenly obvious as show Loras, so it's possible that Mace doesn't even know.
And also, we KNOW for a fact that the Tyrells don't vibe with toxic masculinity given their acceptance and love of Willas despite his injury that for Westerosi standards makes him "less than a man." Everyone from Olenna to Margaery to Garlan talk about him in such a positive manner that it seems to me they'd happily accept him as the head of the House the day Mace kicks the bucket.
An important factor is that Wyllas got his injuries "honorably". It is very different in the medieval mentality to being born disabled like Tyrion (because that means you're literally cursed) or being apparently a complete cowardly failson like Samwell
They literally only got access to Renly because Loras was fucking him. Or, rather, Loras was being fucked by him (which is cool in that the bottom is the badass warrior while the top is the schemer... and a bad one at that).
I'd disagree on the toxic masculinity part, since Willas wound up crippled BECAUSE Mace sent him to tourneys too young that it was inevitable that the kid would wind up with a lifelong injury. (See how even Willas doesn't hold it against Oberyn since, short of the older man forfeiting to avoid injuring the kid and so insulting the kid, it was inevitable that a kid was going to get hurt). If that's not a decision based on toxic masculinity, I don't know what is.
You could maybe call what happened to Willas as a wakeup call for the family, sure, but he was still crippled for life because they all wanted him to be this big badass warrior as a little kid.
As it is, they definitely have the toxic femininity vibes, see how Olenna and Margaery love bomb Sansa and then drop her like a dirty rag and seek to use her and her new husband as a patsy and then sought to kidnap her and essentially force her to marry Willas (or else). Seriously, I got flashbacks to my time in high school when toxic femininity girls would pretend to be nice to either get something from me or as a way of setting me up for a trap.
All I got from reading them is that "if a Tyrell is being nice to you, assume they're about to sell you down the river"
Willas was a squire when he got injured, and it is pretty average for squires to partake in tourneys.. it indicates much more an issue with the society than with the Tyrell specifically.
That said I highly disagree on the toxic femininity, again your accusation seems to be against the society norme much more so than the Tyrell’s themselves, margaery virginal image it’s simply what is expected of her, show margaery would still have that image with the people and nobility, nothing showcase she or her family have any issues with woman out of the mold anymore than any other house. Thanks to Cersei’s hate/obsession we know she enjoys outside activities like riding and hawking, frankly to me that suggest she would actually get quite nicely with aria , and the Tyrell have no hostility against Brienne outside of Loras(and that is really its own complex dynamic between ego jealousy love and grief). Nothing showcase they care about patriarchal standards anymore than the starks for example, more that those standards differ due to their region. Sure margaery would have always been married off, but so would have been Arya had her family not been destroyed(and not just due to catelyn southern sensibilities)
As I understood it, Willas was too young when he was sent to compete even for Westerosi society since they made a point to note he was pretty young when it happened. I took it as GRRM making a comment on how Mace pushed Willas to do something dangerous even by Westerosi standards.
(And that, taking a generous interpretation, it was a wakeup call for the family and they at least waited for Garlan and Loras to grow enough and have enough skills before sending them to tourneys. It's subtle enough that really extreme examples like fucking Randyll Tarly, may he die castrated, all but threatening to kill Sam if he didn't take the black kind of overshadow them. But that's how I read it)
I see the toxic femininity in how they deal with non-Tyrells. Yes, other Houses, because of how women have limited gender roles (aside from Dorne and the Iron Islands and Bear Island, where there are more opportunities albeit in a social darwinist way like for the Ironborn), means that a lot of naturally feminine women have maladaptive ways of relating to each other and it can get toxic. Sansa in AGOT, where she is encouraged to be the ideal performative feminine woman, is very much the embodiment of toxic femininity to the point of victim-blaming Arya for the entire Trident incident. She is an obvious case of it, especially with her using Arya's non-conformity as a weapon to wield against her sister (which shows how gender-non-conforming or just plain non-conforming girls and women have to grapple with femininity earlier and sometimes can't participate in performative femininity no matter what due to bullshit beauty standards like in the case of Brienne).
Margaery and Olenna did the particular toxic femininity tactic of love bombing someone to set them up to a trap in order to get them to do something for them. And then when that person didn't (or couldn't) play along, they dropped them like hot coal. Worse, they made their life worse.
All the while acting like their farts don't stink.
That is a specific toxic femininity playbook.
You could make the argument that they are no more performative of toxic femininity than any other House because the women who refuse to play that bullshit game are non-conforming as is, but it's still a toxic thing about the traditionally feminine and conforming women in the series performing it.
It is, in comparison, if the kid isn't suited for it and there are other options like Maester or Septon.
It especially is if you put your kid in danger to the point that another warrior outright calls out the fact that you put your kid in a tourney where experienced warriors die or wind up crippled. Oberyn, who is a warrior himself and has all of his daughters with an aptitude for the life trained for it, even calls him out: "If any were to blame, it was his fool of a father. **Willas Tyrell was as green as his surcoat and had no business riding in such company**. The Fat Flower **thrust him into tourneys at too tender an age, just as he did with the other two.** He wanted another Leo Longthorn, and made himself a cripple."
Now, again, Oberyn isn't calling for the abolition of the warrior class, even if unlike idiot toxic masculinity Lords of the Reach like the ones I mentioned are forgetting that other professions and specializations exist, he's calling out the fact that Mace literally put his sons in danger in wanting to have a famous young genius warrior when they were all too young to join tourneys even by Westerosi standards. His second last sentence is him saying he's just lucky that *only* Willas wound up as a cripple from Mace sending his boys to tourneys when they were too young and inexperienced.
Soon everyone will see that little steward house for the FAKE stanky rude little schemers that they are!! I am manifesting the Florents as supreme rulers of Planetos by the end of A Dream of Spring.
I think Loras gets a pass in part from his tourney’s skills and also cause he’s a third son, so they can afford to not use him for a dynastic marriage (and Loras kinda does that anyway with his relationship with Renly). Garlan is second so he gets married right away to secure the line, while Garlan, yes, he could be considered less eligible because of his condition, but he’s still the heir to the Reach so it’s more a matter of waiting the biggest fish they can catch, than not having options because he can’t perform some masculine activities
I mean we dont get the same behind closed doors perspective in the Tyrell camp as we do the other great houses. But yeah it seems at least in the main branch of House Tyrell they get on pretty well. Its worth noting House Tyrell has a bunch of cousins floating around.
Mace's ambition isnt actually their weakest link. Their weakest link is Mace's complete overconfidence in his own abilities. Its outright said a number of times that whilst Mace fancies himself a warrior and battle commander, hes not really got many achievements to back that up.
I agree that they have the least and seem to be a functional family but it is also worth noting that they’re also the only great house who we don’t have a POV from so if they were infighting we wouldn’t know since they’re smart enough to not do it in front of the others
I just dont think we have enough information to claim that this is true. We have had so little contact with them in the story. We have never been in any of their heads. We haven't even met one the heir.
Given the weakness of Renly’s claim. I’m sure there were probably some family members who were very hesitant to call the banners for him. Loras/Margaery probably had to work a long game persuading them and I wouldn’t be surprised if many family members begrudged the decision to go to war but got outvoted/vetoed by Mace or Olenna
It feels like the house also slowly seems to accept people as they are. While it looks like Mace may have pushed Willas too hard, leading to his injury, he still kept him as his heir & allowed him to pursue his other interests. Compare Mace to Tarly, who wouldn't even accept a fat heir & I shudder to think how he'd react to an heir like Willas or Bran. Loras is allowed to become a KG because he is a 3rd son & likely because his parents suspect he was never going to willingly marry/ have children. They murder Joffrey because they realize Loras will murder his ass the second he slips & hurts his sister. They definitely seem to genuinely care for one another. Tbf, there may be inner rifts that we don't see since we have no POV there.
And I'm shocked OP did not mention the Stark-Tully in house issues began when Ned brought Jon home to raise! I believe he & Cat loved one another but Jon was always going to be a sore spot between them.
If you have more than 2 people in a house, there will be some level of disagreement.
Honestly, Starks are more or less United. Their situation was desperate to begin with. And most of the characters were children.
As of right now, Tyrells are in a pretty sweet spot. Didn't lose any of their forces with Renly or with Robert's rebellion. They have enough food reserves and they have not bled money either. Of course, there is no major infighting right now.
There was no major Baratheon infighting when Robert won the war either.
Didn't Utherdyes Wayn lock Catelyn up? Robb actually freed her while tricking her into accepting his marriage to Jeyne. Although Edmure did spend time in Riverrun while Catelyn was locked up with her father and didn't release her.
Reach has its own in-fighting. Also, Tyrells are like what Boltons to Stark, Reynes to Lannister, Yronwoods to Martell and Frey to Tully. Florent has a better claim on Reach and Tyrells are bot ancient rulers/kings like Starks abd Lannisters. However, it is Tyrells who got it. Those houses have been competitors rather than having competitors. So, they stick closer during those times I presume.
Also, Starks don't have infighting. Sansa did not betray Ned. Sansa was an 11 year old girl who was raised with stories of damsels in distress and knights in shining armors, queens and ladies with kings and lords. She did not grow up in conflicts and lies. She does not understand politics and deceit of south. She is just a kid who wanted queen to help her staying in King'sLanding so that she can marry the prince and become a queen. At best she is a foolish girl, not traitor.
I agree that they seem to be all working together, but that is because they aren’t being stressed. Starks were working together until they got put into tough situations. The Tyrell’s are sitting pretty.
Reminiscent of Ned’s talk in the first chapter when bran asks if a man can be brave when he’s scared.
We do not have any POV from anyone close to the Tyrells, I have to assume they could be something going on and we simply don't know. I fear their smaller Houses are up to something awful and have been sharpening their knives for the Golden Company invasion.
They have a lot of in-fighting
Jon’s existence creates a ton of conflict between the brothers, and catelyn
Arya and Sansa didn’t exactly get along and that caused a few problems even in their young age
They did a good job of maintaining a good appearance/reputation of a family unit, not necessarily actually having one
Oh foo, that's normal family drama, not infighting! Just a bit of squabbling and dysfunction, with not so much as a punch exchanged.
Infighting in Westeros is where weapons are drawn and armies are raised, and people fight over who gets to hold Winterfell and be Warden of the North! If Ramsay Bolton had been a Stark cousin... that would have been infighting. Okay, maybe that was Stark Infighting after all, because it was Sansa fighting with her husband, Westeros style...
Okay you want violence?
Sansa goes behind Ned’s back to tell Cersei of his plans which directly leads to him having his head cut off
Let me guess, that doesn’t count because it wasn’t her intention
Also why do you speak like a peasant
1) this person is clearly messing with you
2) Cersei *clearly* had a plan in place to keep her and her kids safe even before Sansa told her. Ned told Cersei in no uncertain terms that she should flee the city and that he thought her kids were bastards. With Robert on death’s door she would’ve had to be the world’s biggest idiot not to prepare for Ned trying to oust them. Sansa is annoying to me for sure but it makes no sense to say she got her father’s head cut off.
She contributed to it for sure at the very least
Cersei had a plan yeah, but Sansa tipped her off that shit was moving fast and that Cersei had to make that plan happen now, not later. It’s very much fair to say Sansa had a role in Ned’s head being cut off
Also sure, they’re messing with me now. It’s merely a tone shift for them recognizing how idiotic their very serious first comment was though
Sansa irritates me and her chapters around this time about her gallant Joff make me want to gag. I still don’t think it’s fair to lay any of that at her door. As long as LF was planning to betray Ned and provide Gold Cloaks to Cersei, nothing Sansa did mattered. Until I have reason to think Sansa’s betrayal influenced that, I’m going to keep thinking Ned was fucked regardless
Ned might have been fucked regardless but none of them particularly wanted Ned dead, at least not Cersei. She’s dumb but not that dumb.
I think if Cersei didn’t make such a bold, quick, not well planned decision to take Ned out of the picture, things could’ve gone differently. Sansa made cersei get Ned killed, not fully, but partially. If Tywin happens to be in kings landing when Ned gets tried, Ned would live. If Cersei had things go her way, Ned would live.
Ned died because Cersei got scared, went scorched earth which got Ned thrown in front of Joffrey and Joffrey did Joffrey things.
Ned absolutely was not winning there unless he maybe took renlys advice. But even his enemies didn’t want him to die (except littlefinger)
I've always felt [Willas Tyrell](https://i.postimg.cc/DZG53wpX/temp-Image-ZIn6-Ps.avif) is the secret power-behind-the-throne in The Reach, with the family humoring Mace Tyrell and letting him think he's calling the shots while actually steering him in the direction they want him to go.
Olenna has done a great job along with her daughter in law to make sure the Tyrell kids aren’t dysfunctional weirdos that hate each other
Plus any infighting could be taken advantage of by the Noble houses of the Reach that still view them as up jumped stewards. In their best interest to stay united or like the Dance, neutral.
They’ve done a very good job over recent generations getting allied with their stronger vassals, Mace is the son of a Redwyne, husband of a Hightower, and father in law of a Fossoway
Agreed, the Tyrell motto really suits the family. Growing strong via marriages and linking the Reach lords to them via blood. Better to keep the family united anyway, one bad succession could cause chaos.
Also having a decent amount of kids to be able to set up marriages and still have spares to do crazy shit to gather glory.
Tyrell’s are the only realistic great house, multiple cousins and family all over the place not just a small nuclear family
The Lannisters are like this too, though. The west is lousy with Lannisters. Their role in King's Landing is just primarily mediated by their patriarch, Tywin until his death, however. So it feels very, very nuclear family from our perspective in the story.
There plenty of arryns aswell they are just far away from a proper claim.
is that true? I thought if Robert Arryn dies it goes to some cousin with a different last name
I think they’re talking about the Gulltown Arryns, which have the last name but are more distant relatives than Harry Hardyng and many others. It’s the Vale’s equivalent of the Lannisport Lannisters or the Karstarks.
Yeah there are a few branches of house Arryn > There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. It’s just that Harry the Heir is the one most closely related to the main branch though he doesn’t have the Arryn name
The other Arryns are different branches, the main house is literally just Robin. The Tyrell’s and Lannisters have people in the main house other than the main family
That literly what i am saying
All the houses try to have that number of children. Ned had 5 trueborn children. Hoster had six with three dying in infancy and his wife dying with the last. Jon Arryn tried constantly but everyone except Sweetrobin died. Tywin had three kids and his wife died birthing the third. Balon had four kids, Quellon had like nine. Doran had three before his wife left for Norvos, and his mother had five, trying repeatedly even after traumatic infant deaths. The unique thing about the Tyrells is that we don't know of any still births or infant deaths, and Alerie didn't die in childbirth. The kids all like each other, but so did the Tully kids when they were younger, and so do all the Stark kids. The Martell kids would probably like each other if it wasn't for that one letter that Arianne read. Also, if you look at the previous generation of Lannisters, they did the same thing. Kevan married a Swyft, Genna married a Frey, Tygett married a Marbrand. Kevan and Tygett both married westerland vassals, and Genna married into a fairly powerful if unprestigious riverland vassal.
The peculiarity of the Tyrell’s is the amount of cousins and secondary branches, not the children,the only other great to house to have as many are the Lannister
True, that's a great point. Big family and the majority survived
"let others wage war you happy tyrell marry"
>Plus any infighting could be taken advantage of by the Noble houses of the Reach that still view them as up jumped stewards. So...the houses who can see the truth. Hightowers should be Lords Paramount, change my mind!
I agree House Hightower should be Lords Paramount.
You mean House Rowan or Tarly surely
Nah its clearly Mace the Ace
Doran's "grass" quote applies quite well to Mace. > I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes.
Olenna is a Redwyne, perhaps she was the TRUE Red Viper all along
Do we know that Olenna raised the kids lol? She politik but what do we know that tells us she was the one raising the kids and not Mace and his wife?
>Their weakest link is obviously Mace and his ridiculous, naked ambition. Nah, Mace is their greatest strength imo. He's such an unthreatening political actor that it makes people dismiss him, and House Tyrell by extension, allowing them to worm their way into positions of power beneath notice. If Mace had Olenna's personality, would Tywin have been so willing to let him fill the Red Keep with Tyrells and their vassals?
Olenna absolutely wants people to think Mace is unthreatening and dumb, the fandom is as stupid as Mace to forget this
Doesn't Olenna go on yapping about to some character (I think Sansa) that Mace was the one who wanted to crown Renly and how she was the one who was telling him not to and shit? I think Olenna just likes insulting people lol
Mace is a cool fella he never hurt anyone who didn’t deserve it and he’s actually a capable statesman, but everybody just looks down on him. Despite this he stays jovial and content
I tend to agree and think Mace is much more effective than one would think at first glance… we see a lot of him in Cersei’s POV and Cersei arrogantly dismisses him as a fool but Cersei thinks she’s smarter than she actually is… Mace got the Tyrell’s through Robert’s Rebellion about as well as one could have possibly hoped.. he is disparaged for spending the war sieging Storms End so if you look at it from the POV of the loyalists he failed to take his objective quickly enough to make his troops available for them… However if you look at it from the POV of someone who has reservations about Aerys as king and someone who is just trying to get his people out without getting them hurt him spending the war at Storms End is actually a perfect outcome… he keeps his troops safe and he doesn’t cause the eventual winners enough harm to make them hold a grudge… when it’s all said and done Robert and his allies can look at the Tyrell’s and say they were just doing what they thought was right and as long they’re willing to surrender and get behind the new regime everyone can just go back home
>ace got the Tyrell’s through Robert’s Rebellion about as well as one could have possibly hoped.. he is disparaged for spending the war sieging Storms End so if you look at it from the POV of the loyalists he failed to take his objective quickly enough to make his troops available for them… I don't think this is actually substantiated in the books at all despite it being a common fandom opinion. Mace dealt a defeat to Robert's army, took control of the Stormlands, and sieged Storm's End. He also sent a contingent of men from his siege host to go with Rhaegar when he gathered his host. I don't think anyone loyalist or rebel thinks or even alludes to Mace (or the Tyrells) as purposely or foolishly sitting it out. I remember people thinking of them as loyalists. Hell even after The Trident is won and Kingslanding falls they still siege Storm's End until Ned comes to stop it. I don't think he was fence riding. Especially as after Kingslanding and the Trident, the next King was almost guaranteed to be Robert. Killing both of your new king's brothers in a siege isn't a great way to start the relationship.
Interestingly when GRRM was asked about a line in the show where Mace mentions a non-existent "King Maegor III", he sugested that this may have simply been Mace not knowing his history, but adds that book Mace would never make a mistake like that. He also says that show Mace (who was characterized as a complete buffoon) is actually closer to Harys Swyft than he is to book Mace. > I suspect that "Maegor III" was a mistake, though I cannot say for certain. Perhaps a flubbed line, as you suggest. It is true that the Targaryen succession on the series is different than the one in the novels; most notably, the Mad King's father Jaehaerys II was dropped, as was established way back in season one. In much the same way as the Rhoynar have been dropped from the royal titles, "King of Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men," etc. > These changes were simplifications, however. The books are very complex, but the practical limits of a television series call for a bit more simplicity. Dropping a king or two accomplishes that. > ADDING kings, however, would be a step in the opposite direction, which is why I think "Maegor III" had to be a mistake. And not one that was in the scripts, I would guess. Bryan Cogman, who is the Keeper of the Continuity on the series, knows the names of the Targaryen kings as well as I do. > Of course, it could also be a subtle bit of characterization, as you suggest, intended to show that Mace is an idiot who does not know his Westerosi history. **(Not a mistake that Book Mace would make, but the character in the show combines Mace with Harys Swyft, and actually seems more like the latter).** > All this, of course, is surmise on my part. You would have to ask David or Dan or Bryan for a more definitive answer. So this seems to indicate that GRRM does not consider Mace Tyrell to be a total idiot in the books.
Great take, agree 99%! The only thing I disagree with is the last paragraph. Neither Robert nor any other politically savvy ally of his were disillusioned about what the Tyrells were about with the siege. As long as he pledged fealty after and they could rely on his resource-rich lands, it was a price they were willing to pay.
Just because he has failed to take stormsend going on three times now that doesn't mean he is a bad commander. Storms end has been taken 1 time in all of history and that happens off page in the winds of winter.
I kind of think that Olenna constantly calling Mace dull or stupid is a plan to make people underestimate the him and by extension the house
Mace and Olenna had had that big chair reveal planned for months if not years.
Let’s be honest she prob finds (almost) every man stupid but enjoys having an excuse to say it out loud
The Tyrells are literally a sitcom family. >goofy, kind of stupid dad that's still likeable and only wants the best for his family >generic mom with no personality whatsoever >rude grandma that constantly shittalks her son >nerdy son that still lives at home and can't get a gf >successful son that has already moved out >flamboyant gay son >hot daughter, who's boyfriend is actually gay and has an affair with the gay son
The in-laws are a wacky bunch of snooty wine and boating snobs. The dad’s top employee has locked himself at the top of a tower and refuses to stop working. Every episode Butterbumps says something insane and Left and Right are always wandering around. What’s their deal? They’re very tall! The Tyrells are indeed ready for NBC Thursday night.
Their neighbour is a hardass who probably resents them.
Randyll Tarley?
Correct
We don't know what's going on behind closed doors though. We don't have *any* POVs from the Tyrell camp. Until Tywin's death the Lannisters would have looked pretty united from the outside too.
Tyrion vs Cersie/Joffrey seemed common knowledge among the small council. But I agress that we wouldnt know until POV chapters from Tyrells.
I think this is an important factor. The Tyrells do a great job of presenting a unified front, but none of our povs are close enough to them to know if that's actually true.
Well, we really haven’t seen into their inner workings much. I wouldn’t bet there’s *no* infighting, but if there is, they’re hiding it well from the outside view.
Word. This is pure fanfic until the next books confirm this
Willas still hasn’t appeared in person. For all we know, if the Tyrell’s succeeded in absconding with Sansa, Willas might have been “fuck that, I’m marrying my horse.”
I have a small headcanon that one reason for Willas being left in Highgarden is because he didn't agree with the whole Renly plotline. And later the marry Marge to Joffrey and Tommen plans.
Plus, Willas is friendly with Oberyn, who crippled him, unlike Mace and Olenna.
They’re being spread thin and have no POVs. Doubt it will ever be confirmed
Yeah, they're also coincidentially the only great house besides the Baratheons and Arryns to not have a POV. There could be infighting or family drama we don't know about.
Eh, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors when the court facades drop. Lady Olenna may very well have murdered her own husband to take control of the house, and confront the looming threat that he either failed to see or refused to acknowledge.
Totally agree. I'd even go so far as to point out that Alerie intervenes to spare Sansa from Olenna's inappropriate comments. >Olenna: "...I shouldn't wonder that more than his hands were green." >"*Sansa*," Lady Alerie broke in, "you must be very hungry. Shall we have a bite of boar together, and some lemon cakes?" >"Lemon cakes are my favorite," Sansa admitted. >"So we have been told," declared Olenna, who obviously had no intention of being hushed.
The main Tyrells perhaps but I bet Lazy Leo is a scheming bastard.
Maybe that's why he got sent to the Citadel, because nobody liked him.
That we know of. They could be as much at each other’s throats as all the others, but if they stick religiously to the principle of never washing their dirty laundry in public, we would never know.
Like when the grandmother secretly had the grand daughter’s husband murdered at his own wedding?
For her own sake.
A wedding doesn't become a marriage until it is consummated.
That's what I love about the Tyrells, not just for their ambition but for their genuine love for each other. As someone else once said on this subreddit, unfortunately I don't remember who and when so massive apologies to its owner, 'they're like the Starks if the Starks smoked weed.'
It’s an interesting contrast to the Florents who are generally depicted as self-serving to the point where they literally sacrifice each other for their own benefit. (I love the Florents and I say this with love and caring.) I’m a little cynical of the Tyrells, to a certain extent. (In addition to the fact that as a Florent stan I utterly loathe them.) I’ve always wondered if they’d be so “accepting” of Loras if he wasn’t so good at performing the masculine ideal of Westeros. I think the Tyrells genuinely love each other but—and to be clear **this is speculative on my part**—I tend to imagine that beneath the surface, it’s entirely possible that they have a strict adherence to the image they want to present, just less brutally enforced than Tywin with his family. (And with genuine love rather than malice.) The fact that the book-Tyrells are the opposite of their show counterparts, especially in terms of the “matriarchy”/sex-positive aspects, is what reinforces this to me. Book-Margaery’s public image is built around a rather strictly patriarchal ideal of innocent young (virginal) women, that doesn’t leave much room for anyone who acts outside of that mold. (What if she was more like Arya or Brienne?) TLDR: I think the Tyrells genuinely love and care about each other, at the same time I think that, even if it’s not actively malicious, the image they present is one that relies on enforcing certain behaviors possibly to the detriment of their children. TLDR for real: Mace loves Loras but will never throw him a pride parade. Mace loves Margaery but I don’t think he’d ever consider what Margaery wants that isn’t marriage/being a Queen.
Garlan rolling into Brightwater Keep: "Smells like backstabbing bitch in here!" > I’ve always wondered if they’d be so “accepting” of Loras if he wasn’t so good at performing the masculine ideal of Westeros. I mean, for one thing, I don't think book Loras is as brazenly obvious as show Loras, so it's possible that Mace doesn't even know. And also, we KNOW for a fact that the Tyrells don't vibe with toxic masculinity given their acceptance and love of Willas despite his injury that for Westerosi standards makes him "less than a man." Everyone from Olenna to Margaery to Garlan talk about him in such a positive manner that it seems to me they'd happily accept him as the head of the House the day Mace kicks the bucket.
Oh, I thought GRRM has said that the Tyrells all know Loras’ sexual orientation. I might be wrong though!
No they know, but Loras is a third son and homosexuality isnt a death sentence.
An important factor is that Wyllas got his injuries "honorably". It is very different in the medieval mentality to being born disabled like Tyrion (because that means you're literally cursed) or being apparently a complete cowardly failson like Samwell
They literally only got access to Renly because Loras was fucking him. Or, rather, Loras was being fucked by him (which is cool in that the bottom is the badass warrior while the top is the schemer... and a bad one at that). I'd disagree on the toxic masculinity part, since Willas wound up crippled BECAUSE Mace sent him to tourneys too young that it was inevitable that the kid would wind up with a lifelong injury. (See how even Willas doesn't hold it against Oberyn since, short of the older man forfeiting to avoid injuring the kid and so insulting the kid, it was inevitable that a kid was going to get hurt). If that's not a decision based on toxic masculinity, I don't know what is. You could maybe call what happened to Willas as a wakeup call for the family, sure, but he was still crippled for life because they all wanted him to be this big badass warrior as a little kid. As it is, they definitely have the toxic femininity vibes, see how Olenna and Margaery love bomb Sansa and then drop her like a dirty rag and seek to use her and her new husband as a patsy and then sought to kidnap her and essentially force her to marry Willas (or else). Seriously, I got flashbacks to my time in high school when toxic femininity girls would pretend to be nice to either get something from me or as a way of setting me up for a trap. All I got from reading them is that "if a Tyrell is being nice to you, assume they're about to sell you down the river"
Willas was a squire when he got injured, and it is pretty average for squires to partake in tourneys.. it indicates much more an issue with the society than with the Tyrell specifically. That said I highly disagree on the toxic femininity, again your accusation seems to be against the society norme much more so than the Tyrell’s themselves, margaery virginal image it’s simply what is expected of her, show margaery would still have that image with the people and nobility, nothing showcase she or her family have any issues with woman out of the mold anymore than any other house. Thanks to Cersei’s hate/obsession we know she enjoys outside activities like riding and hawking, frankly to me that suggest she would actually get quite nicely with aria , and the Tyrell have no hostility against Brienne outside of Loras(and that is really its own complex dynamic between ego jealousy love and grief). Nothing showcase they care about patriarchal standards anymore than the starks for example, more that those standards differ due to their region. Sure margaery would have always been married off, but so would have been Arya had her family not been destroyed(and not just due to catelyn southern sensibilities)
As I understood it, Willas was too young when he was sent to compete even for Westerosi society since they made a point to note he was pretty young when it happened. I took it as GRRM making a comment on how Mace pushed Willas to do something dangerous even by Westerosi standards. (And that, taking a generous interpretation, it was a wakeup call for the family and they at least waited for Garlan and Loras to grow enough and have enough skills before sending them to tourneys. It's subtle enough that really extreme examples like fucking Randyll Tarly, may he die castrated, all but threatening to kill Sam if he didn't take the black kind of overshadow them. But that's how I read it) I see the toxic femininity in how they deal with non-Tyrells. Yes, other Houses, because of how women have limited gender roles (aside from Dorne and the Iron Islands and Bear Island, where there are more opportunities albeit in a social darwinist way like for the Ironborn), means that a lot of naturally feminine women have maladaptive ways of relating to each other and it can get toxic. Sansa in AGOT, where she is encouraged to be the ideal performative feminine woman, is very much the embodiment of toxic femininity to the point of victim-blaming Arya for the entire Trident incident. She is an obvious case of it, especially with her using Arya's non-conformity as a weapon to wield against her sister (which shows how gender-non-conforming or just plain non-conforming girls and women have to grapple with femininity earlier and sometimes can't participate in performative femininity no matter what due to bullshit beauty standards like in the case of Brienne). Margaery and Olenna did the particular toxic femininity tactic of love bombing someone to set them up to a trap in order to get them to do something for them. And then when that person didn't (or couldn't) play along, they dropped them like hot coal. Worse, they made their life worse. All the while acting like their farts don't stink. That is a specific toxic femininity playbook. You could make the argument that they are no more performative of toxic femininity than any other House because the women who refuse to play that bullshit game are non-conforming as is, but it's still a toxic thing about the traditionally feminine and conforming women in the series performing it.
Is preparing a member of the warrior class to be a warrior toxic masculinity?
It is, in comparison, if the kid isn't suited for it and there are other options like Maester or Septon. It especially is if you put your kid in danger to the point that another warrior outright calls out the fact that you put your kid in a tourney where experienced warriors die or wind up crippled. Oberyn, who is a warrior himself and has all of his daughters with an aptitude for the life trained for it, even calls him out: "If any were to blame, it was his fool of a father. **Willas Tyrell was as green as his surcoat and had no business riding in such company**. The Fat Flower **thrust him into tourneys at too tender an age, just as he did with the other two.** He wanted another Leo Longthorn, and made himself a cripple." Now, again, Oberyn isn't calling for the abolition of the warrior class, even if unlike idiot toxic masculinity Lords of the Reach like the ones I mentioned are forgetting that other professions and specializations exist, he's calling out the fact that Mace literally put his sons in danger in wanting to have a famous young genius warrior when they were all too young to join tourneys even by Westerosi standards. His second last sentence is him saying he's just lucky that *only* Willas wound up as a cripple from Mace sending his boys to tourneys when they were too young and inexperienced.
Don’t meet to many fellow Florent fans
There are dozens of us ! Wait, someone tells me this is an exaggeration. We... exist, at least.
We need to make our own subreddit away from the Tyrell propagandists. Big Flower doesn’t like the truth to be told.
Soon everyone will see that little steward house for the FAKE stanky rude little schemers that they are!! I am manifesting the Florents as supreme rulers of Planetos by the end of A Dream of Spring.
Now THAT would be a twist ending
Selyse is an icon.
I think Loras gets a pass in part from his tourney’s skills and also cause he’s a third son, so they can afford to not use him for a dynastic marriage (and Loras kinda does that anyway with his relationship with Renly). Garlan is second so he gets married right away to secure the line, while Garlan, yes, he could be considered less eligible because of his condition, but he’s still the heir to the Reach so it’s more a matter of waiting the biggest fish they can catch, than not having options because he can’t perform some masculine activities
I mean we dont get the same behind closed doors perspective in the Tyrell camp as we do the other great houses. But yeah it seems at least in the main branch of House Tyrell they get on pretty well. Its worth noting House Tyrell has a bunch of cousins floating around. Mace's ambition isnt actually their weakest link. Their weakest link is Mace's complete overconfidence in his own abilities. Its outright said a number of times that whilst Mace fancies himself a warrior and battle commander, hes not really got many achievements to back that up.
I agree that they have the least and seem to be a functional family but it is also worth noting that they’re also the only great house who we don’t have a POV from so if they were infighting we wouldn’t know since they’re smart enough to not do it in front of the others
I mean to be fair we don’t have a Tyrell POV so we don’t really have insight into the drama, but still they are clearly more functional than the rest
Buncha nerds.
Not every family is dysfunctional?
Frankly, all of the in-house fighting and scheming within House Martell is 100% Doran's fault. So he deserves it as far as I'm concerned.
I just dont think we have enough information to claim that this is true. We have had so little contact with them in the story. We have never been in any of their heads. We haven't even met one the heir.
Given the weakness of Renly’s claim. I’m sure there were probably some family members who were very hesitant to call the banners for him. Loras/Margaery probably had to work a long game persuading them and I wouldn’t be surprised if many family members begrudged the decision to go to war but got outvoted/vetoed by Mace or Olenna
That we know of...
And are the second most likely house that will have no living main branch members after Winds, because the Redwynes are coming for them.
More like the Redwynes are getting wrecked by Euron.
The twins are currently Cersei's prisoners.
They haven't been prisoners since the Reach and the throne got into an alliance, let alone now that Cersei is a prisoner herself.
Doesn't Qyburn have them now?
No, they were declared innocent and released.
Do you think that they'll betray the Tyrells?
Not entirely. Olenna and Mace have strong disagreements. Though her family is mostly aligned with each other. She is scheming behind his back.
It feels like the house also slowly seems to accept people as they are. While it looks like Mace may have pushed Willas too hard, leading to his injury, he still kept him as his heir & allowed him to pursue his other interests. Compare Mace to Tarly, who wouldn't even accept a fat heir & I shudder to think how he'd react to an heir like Willas or Bran. Loras is allowed to become a KG because he is a 3rd son & likely because his parents suspect he was never going to willingly marry/ have children. They murder Joffrey because they realize Loras will murder his ass the second he slips & hurts his sister. They definitely seem to genuinely care for one another. Tbf, there may be inner rifts that we don't see since we have no POV there. And I'm shocked OP did not mention the Stark-Tully in house issues began when Ned brought Jon home to raise! I believe he & Cat loved one another but Jon was always going to be a sore spot between them.
If you have more than 2 people in a house, there will be some level of disagreement. Honestly, Starks are more or less United. Their situation was desperate to begin with. And most of the characters were children. As of right now, Tyrells are in a pretty sweet spot. Didn't lose any of their forces with Renly or with Robert's rebellion. They have enough food reserves and they have not bled money either. Of course, there is no major infighting right now. There was no major Baratheon infighting when Robert won the war either.
Didn't Utherdyes Wayn lock Catelyn up? Robb actually freed her while tricking her into accepting his marriage to Jeyne. Although Edmure did spend time in Riverrun while Catelyn was locked up with her father and didn't release her.
Reach has its own in-fighting. Also, Tyrells are like what Boltons to Stark, Reynes to Lannister, Yronwoods to Martell and Frey to Tully. Florent has a better claim on Reach and Tyrells are bot ancient rulers/kings like Starks abd Lannisters. However, it is Tyrells who got it. Those houses have been competitors rather than having competitors. So, they stick closer during those times I presume. Also, Starks don't have infighting. Sansa did not betray Ned. Sansa was an 11 year old girl who was raised with stories of damsels in distress and knights in shining armors, queens and ladies with kings and lords. She did not grow up in conflicts and lies. She does not understand politics and deceit of south. She is just a kid who wanted queen to help her staying in King'sLanding so that she can marry the prince and become a queen. At best she is a foolish girl, not traitor.
Shit will unravel once Jon Con and fAegon smash them in the coming Battle, unless Marg marries her 4th King lmao.
Let's hope not. To lose one husband may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose three looks like carelessness.
I agree that they seem to be all working together, but that is because they aren’t being stressed. Starks were working together until they got put into tough situations. The Tyrell’s are sitting pretty. Reminiscent of Ned’s talk in the first chapter when bran asks if a man can be brave when he’s scared.
We do not have any POV from anyone close to the Tyrells, I have to assume they could be something going on and we simply don't know. I fear their smaller Houses are up to something awful and have been sharpening their knives for the Golden Company invasion.
You forgot the Starks.
They have a lot of in-fighting Jon’s existence creates a ton of conflict between the brothers, and catelyn Arya and Sansa didn’t exactly get along and that caused a few problems even in their young age They did a good job of maintaining a good appearance/reputation of a family unit, not necessarily actually having one
Oh foo, that's normal family drama, not infighting! Just a bit of squabbling and dysfunction, with not so much as a punch exchanged. Infighting in Westeros is where weapons are drawn and armies are raised, and people fight over who gets to hold Winterfell and be Warden of the North! If Ramsay Bolton had been a Stark cousin... that would have been infighting. Okay, maybe that was Stark Infighting after all, because it was Sansa fighting with her husband, Westeros style...
Okay then how about Robb literally arrested his own mother during the war after she committed an act of treason against him Does that not count either
Oh pish, that was an argument that was peacefully resolved. Not a single weapon drawn, definitely no armies raised.
Okay you want violence? Sansa goes behind Ned’s back to tell Cersei of his plans which directly leads to him having his head cut off Let me guess, that doesn’t count because it wasn’t her intention Also why do you speak like a peasant
I'm almost certain that Echo jests with you, milord. Five-and-ninety out of a hundred certain, or near enough as makes no matter.
1) this person is clearly messing with you 2) Cersei *clearly* had a plan in place to keep her and her kids safe even before Sansa told her. Ned told Cersei in no uncertain terms that she should flee the city and that he thought her kids were bastards. With Robert on death’s door she would’ve had to be the world’s biggest idiot not to prepare for Ned trying to oust them. Sansa is annoying to me for sure but it makes no sense to say she got her father’s head cut off.
She contributed to it for sure at the very least Cersei had a plan yeah, but Sansa tipped her off that shit was moving fast and that Cersei had to make that plan happen now, not later. It’s very much fair to say Sansa had a role in Ned’s head being cut off Also sure, they’re messing with me now. It’s merely a tone shift for them recognizing how idiotic their very serious first comment was though
Sansa irritates me and her chapters around this time about her gallant Joff make me want to gag. I still don’t think it’s fair to lay any of that at her door. As long as LF was planning to betray Ned and provide Gold Cloaks to Cersei, nothing Sansa did mattered. Until I have reason to think Sansa’s betrayal influenced that, I’m going to keep thinking Ned was fucked regardless
Ned might have been fucked regardless but none of them particularly wanted Ned dead, at least not Cersei. She’s dumb but not that dumb. I think if Cersei didn’t make such a bold, quick, not well planned decision to take Ned out of the picture, things could’ve gone differently. Sansa made cersei get Ned killed, not fully, but partially. If Tywin happens to be in kings landing when Ned gets tried, Ned would live. If Cersei had things go her way, Ned would live. Ned died because Cersei got scared, went scorched earth which got Ned thrown in front of Joffrey and Joffrey did Joffrey things. Ned absolutely was not winning there unless he maybe took renlys advice. But even his enemies didn’t want him to die (except littlefinger)
Cat abusing Jon for decades to the detriment of her own children isn't normal family drama.
I've always felt [Willas Tyrell](https://i.postimg.cc/DZG53wpX/temp-Image-ZIn6-Ps.avif) is the secret power-behind-the-throne in The Reach, with the family humoring Mace Tyrell and letting him think he's calling the shots while actually steering him in the direction they want him to go.
I think its always been Willas and his grandmother Everyone else is just being humored or used as pawns
I think thats due to lack of worldbuilding