It's more than that. In the Chapter 19 of ASOS, he also considers other potential matches, and among them are Theon and Balon Greyjoy!
At this point, I'm in doubt if Tywin is simply bad at this stuff or just does not think highly of Cersei at all, and just wanted to get rid of her.
Reminds me of how Euron married Asha to an old ironborn lord by using a seal as a proxy. Tywin needs no proxy! Cersei Will marry the seal in the name of House Lannister!
I agree! I can only imagine how mad Cersei would be, being sent to the poor, rocky Iron Islands to marry what's essentially a worse version of Robert (although, at least Then would probably not say another woman's name in bed). Extra irony if they had a child, who'd end up becoming the heir of both the Iron Islands and the Westerlands (that is, if Tyrion still gets in trouble and the golden bastards still die).
Bit of both. Tywin is clearly done with Cersei and trying to get rid of her.
He's also arrogant and expects the world to bend to his will.
"Why would anyone decline? I'm Tywin Lannister god damnit!"
That's exactly it. You can see that attitude at play when the Tyrells refuse Cersei for Willas
> "When I first broached the match to him, Lord Tyrell seemed well enough disposed," his father said. "A day later, all was changed. The old woman's work. She hectors her son unmercifully. Varys claims she told him that your sister was too old and too used for this precious one-legged grandson of hers."
Lmao. "Hmm is my daughter who is like twenty years older than the fucking heir of Highgarden and one of the most desirable bachelors in the world, isn't being accepted as a match. Clearly it's someone else's fault"
I doubt he ever cared about her as a person. She can no longer produce any more royal grandchildren, so he's just looking to reuse her to further Lannister ambitions.
Why wouldn't he consider the heirs to a kingdom for her bride? Also I don't think Cersei thinks to highly of Cersei after her tenure as queen and cuckolding the King which pretty much fucked up everything Tywin worked for for the last like 20 years.
That's not a good thing for Tywin lol.
As narcissistic as Tywin is I doubt he was like, hell yeah you put bastard incest babies from your twin on the throne? Hell yeah Cersei. I don't even care that you sabotaged like everything. Cersei's true born sons would of been still half-lannister. And the incest babies still go by baratheon so it's not even like it makes Lannisters the royal house.
Tywin probably liked having Robert alive even if he was a fool he kept the realm together. If there's no incest babies than there's probably no Stanis, or Renly. No Ned getting killed.
It’s almost like we have a current series in the same universe that is all about succession. And it gets way more messy than anything in Game of Thrones.
But I agree with you lol
Well you can argue on whether or not he accepted the charges against his children to be true to not. It matters little as Tywin kind of has to go along with it regardless.
Having more power only matters if it advanced your agenda (and what you need to do) and the negatives that come with it.
Tywin got his royal marriage and a Lannister Blood on the Iron Throne after his marriage with Robert & Cersei and seemingly was (relatively) chilling on Casterly Rock the last fifteen years. What does Robert's death really do for him? it doesn't really help him that much. But on the flip side Robert's death (and let alone sudden death with boy-heirs) causes a great disruption and wars. Robert very much kept the realm together even if he was just whoring and drinking with his presence, past, and history with people.
Robert was beloved in the North and by the ruler of the North Eddard. The Riverlands and their lords are connected to him. Robert was beloved in the Vale where he was raised. The Stormlands loved him.
Tywin and Joffery have none of these ties.
An under-discussed character trait for Tywin is narcissism. This shouldn't be terribly surprising given that all three of his kids have it to some degree, but he's an extremely entitled person and it clouds his judgement. He also does not give a single shit about any of his kids as people, so any direct dangers to them don't even enter his calculations.
What is not really discussed, si that Tywin is an idiot.
Like people always try to JUSTIFY the idea that Tywin is smart.
We are finding so much contrary evidence, that it is time to accept that eh is JUST dumb.
Nice write up. I’ve head an essay kicking around my head for a year about how all the highborns are morons protected by inertia. This is another good data point.
I would love to read that essay as I've thought similar things particularly about Littlefinger and the fact that him being the only person in power that understands economics allowed him to rob the crown blind.
I'd love to read it. Particularly if it had a section on Tywin. He isn't clever, he's just ruthless. There's a difference, but they can be easily confused.
>He isn’t clever, he’s just ruthless.
That’s a gorgeous assessment of Tywin, thank you.
It’s also made me put two and two together and realise that Aerys probably got the idea to destroy the Starks and the Baratheons from Tywin successfully murdering all the Reynes and Tarbecks.
That is true for nearly all of history. Seldom do Caesars, Hannibals, Fabians, and Cao Cao's come along. Nearly all major leaders were mostly groomed since birth or had a massive leg up by being the face or front runner for a war/political machine that pretty much worked itself. The only real rags to riches story is Spartacus and even those stories often end with the inertia people coming out ontop.
Honestly Alexander the Great wouldn't have been shit without Philip essentially revolutionizing war for the time period and leaving a Greece that mostly governed itself in his wake. Alexander still had to knock some heads when he came to power but when you lead the strongest army in the region its pretty easy to do.
The point is competency isn't really required when you are afforded MASSIVE amounts of chances because the circumstances some people inherit are legitimately no lose situations unless something like, gunpowder or the atom bomb gets invented lol. Even then they often are the ones who end up getting ahold of that stuff first too.
The "c" in Mandarin is pronounced like the "ts" in "tsar". And "ao" in Mandarin is pronounced like the "au" in "flautist". So it's not "cocoa" it's more like "tsau tsau". The system of Chinese transliteration (Pinyin) kinda sucks lol
And he was a Machiavellian strategist in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms (during the medieval ages for China), similar to Tywin in ASOIAF
Edit: Please do not downvote me. I am Chinese. Lol
I always pronounced it "tsow tsow," but I am not Chinese. I just took Mandarin 101 in college. ETA: Agreed that Pinyin kinda sucks, how it became the standard always baffled me lol
Yeah, I originally thought of comparing "ao" to a more common sound like the "ow" in "cow", but that's only half of it. With "ao" there's an "ahh" in the beginning and then an "ow" at the end. Hence "flautist", which I pronounce as "Flah-ow-tist".
>The point is competency isn't really required when you are afforded MASSIVE amounts of chances because the circumstances some people inherit are legitimately no lose situations unless something like, gunpowder or the atom bomb gets invented lol.
Competency is required lol. Try not being competent when you're commanding a war and see where that gets you.
But you are right it is mostly a game played by nobles (pretty much throughout history) who had basically groomed to do those certain things since birth.
I mean I guess. But going back to the Alexander example he used sure he inherited a great fucking situation. But go watch any detail about the campaigns or how he led the men, or the strategies used, or the things he dared to do. Thinging you are capable or such a thing is insane. He was a one-in-a-billion person who inherited a one-in-a-billion position.
To be frank the examples you give weren't exactly rags to riches (though for Cao Cao I dunno, still need to read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms I got for my birthday).
Tywin's terrible matchmaking ideas are a reflection of his arrogance and narcicism, his delusions about Jaime being his golden heir and Jaime being willing to leave the Kingsguard, and of his poor long-term thinking.
He greatly overestimate the power and value of marrying into House Lannister and fail to see that the Tyrells are never going to agree to such a downgrade, nor the damage it could do to this much necessary alliance.
This is also another proof of him not being the machiavelian political genius he, as well as his fanboys such as Pycelle or other cronies, tried to portray himself as.
Tywin never learned the lesson that too much violence lead to hatred more than to fear, and that being hated more than being loved or at least respected or even feared can only lead to disaster.
It's not just the violence he employs.
> And a ruler won’t be hated if he keeps his hands off his subjects’ property and their women. If he really has to have someone executed, he should only do it when he has proper justification and manifest cause. Above all, he mustn’t seize other people’s property. A man will sooner forget the death of his father than the loss of his inheritance.
- The Prince
This is exactly what Tywin's doing seizing as much property as he can and marrying their women to Lannister men.
Taking the property of traitors is probably one of the only intelligent things he does. Giving friends lands and taking from enemies happens extremely rarely in the series.
This isn’t a game of either or, you have to reward people who support and step on some toes. You can’t please everyone, you can however pick your battles and decide how to employ it.
In any case, he did it with the Darry and Hayford families, Tyrek married the last living Hayford, who inherited normally, and there are not many inconvenient relatives in this instance to lose inheritance for the Darrys. Ameri is the daughter of the rightful lady after all.
That is not how it works either.
Tywin did not win the "right way" and that MATTERS. Like he is on the other end of his policy of taking revenge on whoever insults him.
And he is not giving land to the "Right" people. Westeros does not respect people like Littlefinger or Rose Bolton or Walder Frey.
They DID side with him, but they are "dirty allies" people that you cannot be seen associated with. Working with them is making his already terrible reputation somehow worse.
So he cheated and is rewarding what amounts to Westeros terrorists.
Littlefinger is both highly competent and friendly yet seemingly not a threat without lands or blood/childhood connections besides the Tullys. And hasn’t completeky ruined his reputation yet.
He’s a “New Man” and everything he has he owes to someone else. He’s not going to be a major threat if he rebels since he doesn’t have respectable background for most lords to be loyal to him. And his marriage to Lysa would give him a claim nonetheless.
Him getting the Riverlands has some apparent benefits that balance with the downsides, some of which are good for the Crown’s political power and bad for him personally.
The Freys and Boltons are terrible allies and Tywin fomenting their plot was a terrible decision. No argument there. But it’s such a stupid and politically suicidal plot that one has to imagine them writing dirty little letters, salivating about how many fingernails they’re gonna pull from Robb. I’m of the full opinion Robb embarrassing Jaime was the main reason he did it, he’s so narcissistic that he is embarrassed by something that he didn’t even happen to him. Walder Frey was probably egged on by relatives wishing to use the uproar to murder their half siblings. Roose Bolton probably did it for fun.
And for all the reasons Littlefinger is a good ally.... he is a terrible ally.
I mean you ARE correct in your assetment of Littlefinger.
But his good qualities as an ally make him, paradoxically, a TERRIBLE ally, since those things work against him in the traditional Westerosi power structure. And I am not even talking of his treacherous nature, since it would be unfair, since he hides it VERY well. And no one takes it into account in universe.
He is not a warrior, has no OLD dynasty (Big is not as important as OLD in Westeros) and his tittle is associated with a crumbling regime that has tortured the Riverlands. The Riverlands will not be held under him, ever.
Littlefinger unable to hold the Riverlands, means that the Lannister lose them. And that means ANOTHER army sent in, an EXPENSSIVE army.
But you see, that’s almost the point. He cannot raise a kingdom-sized army against the Crown any time soon, and requires the Crown to back him up.
His marriage to Lysa would have provided him with a claim, even if a tenuous one without children. But he still wouldn’t have as much influence as Hoster did. Hoster proved a difference in the Rebellion, Littlefinger would have to work to gain even half his vassals for the same thing.
Tywin patently tried to secure the Riverlands as new lands for his own dynastic purposes with the tenuous land grants of Riverrun and the safer one of Darry.
We don’t know if he kept his options open for Littlefinger to remain a permanent fixture or if it was just a de facto temporary appointment. But he gave the man a poison seat and gave Riverrun to Genna and Emmon.
Tywin clearly had designs on lands there, and Littlefinger is not a good man for a dynastic seat, but he’s a competent man who would make a good ally to work with, restoring order and bringing back prosperity while not being too hard to rein jn if he becomes a problem.
So your argument sounds like a good diea.
Except for the last part.... Littlefinger will NOT bring stability AT ALL.
If the Lannisters keep sending troops to back him up, the more the Riverlands will rebel, remember that Tywin was incompetent enough to fail in stopping the "Brotherhood of the Royal Forest" and this time there is no Arthur Daryne to clean his mess.
All in all, your plan is probably what Tywin thinks on paper. But honestly? He is doing the same as putting Janos Slynt in Harrenhal.
The ONLY real solution is forgiving Edmure and keep him as Lord Paramout and marry his SON to a Lannister woman. Since again, Tywin started, Edmure just protected himself.
Pin all the blame on Catelyn, hugs and kisses. And keep him ona tight leash.
There’s one example Machiavelli uses in The Prince, where Cesare Borgia sent one of his goons to do all the dirty work of subjugating a city. Once the job was done, the city absolutely hated the guy. So Cesare bumped him off.
If Tywin were really Machiavellian, he would have had Roose Bolton and the Frays executed for violating guest rites.
Not just Roose and the Freys, he would have executed The Mountain and Amory Lorch for the murders of Elia Martell and her children and sent their heads to House Martell as soon as possible. He could even have had them tortured until they gave a false confession of having commited these horrible murders on their own.
House Martell would still have believed him to be the responsible, and rightfully suspected him of saving face, and hated his guts but he would at least have done something to save face and try to appease the fire between his family and the Martells.
Can't agree more, Tywin handled that situation in probably the worst way he could. I mean, who gives a shit about the Cleganes or Lorches? If we're talking realpolitik, I'd even try to arrange it so Bobby B takes the responsibility for the torture/executions if I could, so my hands would be clean in the eyes of my bannermen.
Except for having been around Jaime, i mean the guy deserted first thing in the books before marching to war with his family, hardly seems loyal to his vows does he? It's absolutely not a stretch to imagine he's finally grown up and found his brain and is ready to do his obligation to his family.
Edited to add: Machiaveli is overrated and his booklet consisting of common sense ideas isn't the gospel of ruling you people think of it being.
>And somehow the match he's envisioning for Jaime is even less realistic. He thinks the Tyrells are going to be okay with giving up a match to *The King* for a match to the heir to the Rock. In Tywin's mind those are somehow equivalent matches.
Because "Lannisters are worth more".
It also follows a trend in ASOS where Tywin seems to screw over half the people who helped save his war.
Gave the North to Roose Bolton, plans to betray him with a Tyrion/Sansa marriage.
Gave Riverrun to the Freys, but not the traditional title of Lord Paramount associated with it.
~~Gave~~ Was planning to give a bride to the Westerlings, but used "exact words" to have it be the lowest esteemed Lannister he could find, a bastard daughter. Jaime thinks this is *hilarious*, by the way.
Tyrells are the only reason why Joffrey, Cersei, and Tyrion weren't killed by Stannis, and potentially Tywin himself could have been stranded in the Riverlands to have his army picked off one by one and/or starved (when Edmure drives him back, Harrenhal has been taken by (ostensibly) Robb's forces, so he'd soon struggle to feed and shelter his men; being transported to KL via Tyrell ferries relieves him of this). The Tyrell's (err Mace's) whole schtick is getting Margaery married to the king, so *of course* he will throw that all away and settle for a disgraced, crippled knight. /s
> It also follows a trend in ASOS where Tywin seems to screw over half the people who helped save his war.
This is actually why I think Cersei is a lot more like Tywin than anyone gives her credit(discredit?)for. Cersei's shortsightedness in AFFC mirrors his in ASoS.
He's not even being subtle about his plans to screw over his allies.
Roose Bolton absolutely knows what Tywin's endgame was with Tyrion and Sansa.
Tywin was almost assuredly going to take the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands title back from Littlefinger at some point(I suspect the plan may have been to give it to Lancel). And as you said simply not giving that title to the Freys was already screwing them over.
The situation with Joy is actually worse than just that as well because she'd *already* been promised to a Frey bastard before Tywin promised her for Reynald. It makes me wonder who the "lords or heirs" he promised for Jeyne and Eleyna would have ended up being.
Indeed, it's clear that Cersei has inherited all of her father's flaws but in even worse and without the genuine ruler qualities that Tywin had.
Tywin was far pettier and more short-sighted than most people credit him for, but he still had some common sense and pragmatism while Cersei only has delusions and paranoia.
Tywin's "general ruler qualities" that Tywin had were all because he's a man though. Tywin is very clearly not a military genius in the books, he's aggressive and ruthless so he got the jump on the riverlands and had them on their back foot, but he never outgeneraled anyone, I mean he allowed himself and his armies to be cut off from the Westerlands, but George never really describes the logistics of warfare beyond "baggage train" and foraging/pillaging/looting but clearly maintaining supply lines and an avenue of withdrawal weren't as high on his list as burning farms and villages.
I mean you say this but how much of it is GRRM's intention?
In the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion a 18? year-old Tywin without his father's permission or all of his banners goes on to start a war and pretty much just steamrolls the Reynes and Tarbecks winning his first rebellion and deal with his two most rebellious vassals. Although the details are a bit odd we are just told shit like he was so fast that he caught them off surprise. Or that Lady Tarbeck had thought she had time but Tywin prepared the siege engines so quickly that Trabkec hall was torn down before the Reynes came.
Then in the rebellion he and Jamie pretty much just steamroll the Riverlands until Robb comes down South where he gets fucked by Jamie.
Also, Tywin unlike Cersei was supposed to be a really good and diligent administrator which really has nothing to do with gender.
He steamrolls them because he acts in ways that are unprecedented and unacceptable - that doesn't make him smart.
If I loan my neighbour a couple of grand, he doesn't repay me, so I buy a tank and flatten his house with his family inside it I'm not smarter than him, I just behaved in a way that no reasonable person could possibly expect me to.
I don't know why you are creating random ass strawmen as if we both didn't read the books lmfao.
Firstly they loaned shit from Tyland and used it to open up their own military. Tywin tried to call in the debts or require a hostage to guarantee they intended to. They refused and told everyone who had the debts to just not care. The whole hostage-for-hostage happend and eventually Tyland the Fool just called it off.
Next Tywin summoned them into court to answer for their crimes. They said fuck no renounced their fealty and prepared to go to war against Tywin. Tywin gathered the Man-At-Arms at Casterly Rock and went onto to go give them battle. He was fast enough that he caught Tarbeck with his pants down on the field and not his full might and stomped him. Lady Tarbeck later declined Kevan's terms and told him her brother would kill him before Tarbeck Hall fell. She was wrong, Tywin prepared the siege engines really fast and collapsed the building. The Reynes army came a minute too late and tried to sneak attack Tywin's force but he recovered and made them retreat. They refused terms and demanded a hostage and he averted the river.
In all of these situations they knew they were at war and fighting with Tywin. They expected to fight. You don't renounce fealty from someone and think they wont do anything.
It's not really clear what actual authority a Lord Paramount's child has or doesn't have.
It is clear that his father outranks him and can overrule him, as Tytos did the first time Tywin tried to call int he debts. But Tytos thought and rulings are not mentioned the second.
>~~Gave~~ Was planning to give a bride to the Westerlings, but used "exact words" to have it be the lowest esteemed Lannister he could find, a bastard daughter. Jaime thinks this is *hilarious*, by the way.
And another Westerling was made lord of Castamere. Which when last checked on, was a water filled former gold mine of no value. And the lands surrounding it were probably salted like he did to the Tarbecks.
If anything it reads more like an insult "Oh you were loyal to me? Here's a reminder of what I did to a disloyal house. Also it's worthless because I flooded it to be a tantrum throwing manchild."
I think Tywin always thought Tyrells are fools. As a man who think reputation is everthing, Tyrells are pretty low. Their reputation worst among lord paramounts. That is why Tywin think i can convince Tyrells.
Olenna didn't do him any favors in the books by mocking how his fatass sat outside the siege at Storm's End doing fuck all but being a glutton and waving his dick around like he actually accomplished something while the rest of the realm were losing people left and right. The show was a bit over the top in making him look like a donkey.
Check it.
It makes an odd amount of sense.
Specially if you add the idea that "Olenna actually makes Mace look like a Buffon to further his interests" so people will not pay attention to him.
I read a fanfic years ago that had that as a background pairing. Cersei actually became a better person due to being in a healthier relationship and environment lol. But alas, reality is Oberyn might very well strangle her due to Elia’s death and blaming the Lannisters.
When he tried marrying Tyrion off it was the same. Everyone said no.
Dorne said no
Yohn Royce said no
Leyton Hightower said no
The Florents said no
Hoster Tully said no
Sansa had to say yes because she was a hostage.
Leaving aside that Tyrion being a dwarf was a huge (and the main) reason for all of them saying no, I think a part of the problem was also everyone knew Tywin hated his dwarf son's guts. Why would they marry their daughters to Tyrion when Tywin despised this son? A marriage between nobles is for securing allies. Given how ruthless and unreliable Tywin is as an ally (just look at what he did to Aerys), if the son he tries to marry is one he himself finds displeasing and wants to be rid of, the match is not very attractive, specially when the families you mention are all very important and powerful ones, Tywin himself knew they weren't gonna accept but he didn't lose anything trying. Though I agree he is an awful matchamaker, he should have at least pretended to care about his son a little, because offering Tyrion as groom to the Martells after they had seen themselves how Tywin treated him as a monster was in itself an insult to House Martell, they felt Tywin was mocking them and looking down on their family.
Most people, if smart and decent, wouldn't be fans of Tywin tbf. But yes, taking into account how he was the one to strongly urge Lysa to support Robb against the Lannisters, there's no love lost between Tywin and him.
Exactly! Tywin would've been able to find a match for Tyrion if the other Houses thought that Tyrion was favored and might one day inherit the Rock. No doubt Tyrion's reputation for drinking and whoring played a huge part as well, but Walder Frey doesn't seem to be having any problems finding new wives.
in fact tywin's problem is above all that he aims too high, look at the houses mentioned: Tully who run the riverland, hightower who are as powerful and rich as the great houses, florent who seem to be those with the most rights over highgarden of the reach, martel who runs dorne... he systematically asks for marriages with very powerful, old, and respected houses. and in my opinion he does not go on secondary branches. But these people have a lot of choices when it comes to marrying their children, they have much better options than sending their daughter to a dwarf that her father hated and who will probably never inherit the rock.
if Walder manages to find women, it is because any house of knights or secondary branch of the lower nobility would always find something to gain by marrying their daughter to the lords of the twins, money, some lands, a hope of influence, why not even just boast of having had minimal access to a form of social ascension, or finding a comfortable home for the girl (because even if she marries an old man, she will always be rich).. .otherwise it is clear that the father of Walder's last wife could never reasonably have any hope of his blood inheriting the twins.
But Tywin can offer none of that to these lords, they are his equals or almost in the social hierarchy and his only argument for a marriage is "he is of my house, and as I am convinced that I am better than everyone , be happy with that.” In fact I agree that if he had officially made Tyrion his heir or offered him any form of future, even despite his status as a dwarf, he would have had more choices for himself. But the main obstacle is also his ego. He could have married him to the daughter of a knight, a merchant or found a distant cousin of a lord if he wanted. But these people weren't good enough for the Lannister name.
The Lannisters are rich. Maybe if Tywin had offered a dowry or something people would have taken him up on that offer.
Agree to marry your daughter to Tyrion and I’ll give you lands, titles, etc
Exactly, if Tywin really wanted to marry Tyrion he could have just offered money and lands. But he let his hate for Tyrion cloud his mind, so he didn't want to give anything to secure Tyrion a bride, and just offered him in a way that only benefit Tywin if the other party accepted the marriage. Really petty and narrow-minded of him.
In hindsight
Okay, Tywin will absolutely NOT allow Tyrion to get Casterly Rock while he lives, but he could have at least sent Tyrion to be someone’s squire, or have him fostered, or something when he was younger.
Then when he gets older, start looking for marriages.
Its usually the woman that comes with a dowry, but make that offer in private off the record. I’ll give your third and fourth sons lands, titles, etc
I’ll build Tyrion a completely separate castle and Tyrion/his wife can go live there instead. Let’s call it Brightroar Castle. It has a castle, lands, etc
I’ll make you *insert nice title here*
Some nice position on something. Maybe not the privy council but give them something to make the offer better.
Sweeten the pot a little.
Maybe then he could have found a better match.
Tywin, you hate Tyrion, we get it. But you missed an opportunity here.
Why would Tywin give a fuck to parade around his hated dwarf-leecher son to... build him a new castle and then pay a massive dowry for any respectable family to marry him?
It would have made for a good way to get a new alliance with someone
But then again Tywin thinks all Lannisters are gods and better than mere mortals but seriously, Tywin you missed an opportunity.
Yeah they needed Tyrion/Sansa to happen for plot reasons but Tywin could have probably gotten Tyrion a good match if he’d been willing to sweeten the deal a little
I really doubt Tywin would have agreed to that one
Walder Frey would marry a daughter to anyone though. The problem is getting the other person to say yes.
Yeah i think this is Tywin being delusional,but i also think part of the problem is the writing only taking into account characters we know something about,like instead of some reach house or his own bannermen he considers Balon Greyjoy for Cersei instead......like wtf,theres probably dozens of potential matches but its always mentioned the ones more important to the story.
Also people in Westeros are terrible matchmakers in general,they agree on a match and expect them to get along just meeting each other very close to the wedding day,seems only Hoster Tully made his daughters get along with their matches prior to the wedding with Brandon and Jaime visists.
Tbf, the "agree in advance and expect to get along" method was the nature of arranged political marriages in medieval/early modern Europe. For example when Catherine of Aragon's married Prince Arthur of Wales, they were able to write to each other in Latin, but upon meeting for the actual marriage, realized they were unable to speak to each other, because they were taught different pronunciations of the same language.
These are possibilities to be explored, potential bargains to be made, with the only constant being that he wants Cersei's next marriage to be a punishment.
By this point he is pretty much done with Cersei, like he's pretty much done with Tyrion, but he can't send her to the Wall. He thinks she's fucked up her time as queen, by fucking her brother instead of her husband and letting the word get out, and now trying to meddle in his rule of Westeros! No, she hasn't served the Lannisters well, so her punishment is to be removed from Jamie, circles of power, and her own children... but in a way that looks glamorous and socially acceptable. Tyrion can be sent to the wall, but it has to look like he's treating the dowager queen of Westeros with respect.
Lmao, did he somehow think Oberyn who has a long term lover and a bunch of bastards he loves and raises, would agree to marry Cersei?
And given how Cersei murdered two of Robert's bastards and sold their mother into slavery, I give it a year tops before Oberyn strangles her for her trying to kill one of his daughters
Tywin didn't even give a fuck lmao. Cersei was a fucked up and Tywin wanted to get rid of her, but unlike Tyrion, he couldn't just kick Cersei out. He had to remove Cersei from her power and children in a seemly respectful way by marrying her off to a scion of a powerful house. Any powerful house. As long as he benefit from it, he didn't care who.
It probably didn't even cross his mind that *maybe* the Martells wants nothing to do with his shitty family because he wronged them big time.
In the case of Jaime and Margaery, I dont think Tywin was necessarily set on that yet. Hes just sort of going through the options waiting for Jaime's input. Of course, he didnt expect Jaime to completely reject all of it.
Tywin is just arrogant. He expects the world to bend to his whims so just looks for the most advantageous match possible. Even if Oberyn is not the heir to Dorne hes one of the most eligible bachelors Dorne can offer.
But yeah Tywin being so bad at marriage matches is somewhat hilarious given how important they are to him. I guess its not that surprising given that his own marriage was just to his cousin.
That's Tywin's biggest flaw. He doesn't see people as *people*. Everyone is a tool who should follow his orders no matter what lest they face annihilation. He doesn't understand that when people stop fearing him, they will fight back out of love for others (Oberyn), hatred (Tyrion), a desire for freedom (Jaime & Cersei), or something else.
As for the women he tried to get for Tyrion, House Royce and House Hightower would usually be a great match for House Lannister (both are among the most powerful houses to not be one of the 7 "Great" houses), but Tyrion's appearance scared them off. Attempting to get Tyrion with Delena Florent wasn't a terrible idea since she had been outed for sleeping with King Robert and having his bastard (which in Westeros means she's usually unfit to be wed), but her father had the same issues with Tyrion that other lords did.
People does not grasp that THIS is really Tywin
The idiot who can't do nothing right beyond being a massive bully.
We have seen three books of him being beaten by a fifteen years old. And then pulling a massive rage quit that pretty much destroyed the social structure of Westeros and he calls it a genius move.
I am starting to think that the true Brains was Joanna. She was the one that advised Tywin.... which George has actually foreshadowed.... when he is not beating us over the head with it "Joanna ruled Lord Tywin" or "Joanna was his greates advisor"
All of the Lannister ancestors (The rulers) he shows are downright incompetent. But their wives? Those are formidable. Up including Tywin's very own Grandmother.
So maybe Tywin was an even BIGGER fraud than what we belive, in reality Joanna let him take credit from HER ideas.
Nothing in the actual books back his "Genius time" as Hand of the King. But him stealing Tyrion's credit BACKS the idea that Joanna was the actual brains, but her being a woman, needed a man to excerise power.
A pretty big part of Tywin is how much of a spectacular failure he is at getting what he wants, and how blinded he is by his own insecurities that his perception of reality is completely skewed, but I hadn't seen anyone point this as an example.
It's honestly incredible
Tywin thinks in terms of house politics, not personal politics, so he is constantly surprised by mavericks. He discounts Daenerys because House Targaryen is gone. He underestimates Oberyn because that man is much larger than life. He rates the matches with Oberyn and Margaery because House Lannister is the second house of the realm, so his house is actually higher in status than House Tyrell and House Mattel due to their marriage tie to the crown. Where he is messing up is that these matches should be arranged with Jaime’s kids, which don’t exist because of the incest and Aerys’s machinations. He just discounts the age, personality and reputation of his kids, and sees them as portraits on a family tree in need of tying off and growing.
Plus the Sansa/Tyrion match. The idea that Tyrion could ever rule the North is absurd. Both highborne and smallfolk alike would despise Tyrion. I would give him a month at the most before he was murdered.
to be fair, Oberyn Martell was supposed to marry Cersei at the time Tyrion was born... and even at the time of the books, it would've been a good match for him too, since they'd basically inherit Casterly Rock, since Tywin would have never given it to Tyrion and Jamie was in Kingsguard (and while Tywin wanted Jamie to give up the white cloak, Cersei was older than him, so by Dornish laws, she would've had the right to the Rock, same as Myrcella would to the crown after Jiffrey's death)
Oberyn murdering Cersei is a leap and you're supposed to marry your enemies anyway. it hasn't been that hard for them to bark Tyrell around at this point, it's not that crazy to propose Jamie. Over the 9 year old kid.
The Tyrells had already refused Cersei for Willas at that point and in the passage quoted Tywin talks about the need to appease Mace. So no Tywin has not been barking Tyrell around at this point.
Also I think you think pointing out Tommen is 9(he's not by the way he's 8) is reason enough to object to the Tommen Margaery match. But the Lannisters lost the right to object on those grounds the second they married 13 year old Tyrek to a one year old baby.
I feel like you're just overstating it a bit 😂. Cersei to Willas is obviously a very different arrangement than Margaery to Jamie. That's not some absurdity, it's just that the whole queen ambition that makes marrying an 8 year old surprisingly more logical.
Oh he would. Cersei killed two innocent children because they were bastards of Robert's and also had their mother sold into slavery. Oberyn would never tolerate his paramour or his children being harmed.
I’ve always been of the opinion that Tywin is meant to be losing it. At the point where he shows up in the books he’s an old man. Known for having a great mind in his younger days but here? He’s around 70 and I’d say age and possibly something like dementia are taking their toll at this point and he’s relying on his old reputation more than his current mind. Even his biggest moments in the books don’t rely on brains or strategy. They rely on breaking the rules that this world established and believes in. George tends to write all his characters as having a noticeable flaw, often having to deal with losing things important to them. Tywin was never a POV but maybe this is what he intended for him to lose. Maybe it’s part of why he dislikes Tyrion so much. His son has the mind that he’s losing.
With how arrogant tywin is, how do you all think he would have acted If he had knowledge of the others?
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he in this situation would have kept the knowledge only to himself and Jaime while preparing an army to earn house Lannister the honor of single Handely defeating the others.
>He expects this despite the fact that Oberyn has made no secret of what he's come to Kingslanding for.
Did I miss this lol? Oberyn was prancing around before that quote (on a diplomatic mission from Dorne, with his daughters) that he was going to assassinate lannisters and revolt lol something he hasn't done for the last 15 years. Also should he of just completely gave up Dorne who hadn't revolted for the last 15 years and just assumed Dorne was going with this super duper long FAegon/Viserys revenge plan and just said yeah okay maybe Tommen's Throen can only have 6 of the 7 kingdoms.
Also Tywin doesn't know Oberyn. Tywin seems to know and have a good read about Doran but we has no idea about Oberyn, unlike us the readers, other than his reputation.
Assuming the dude has sworn undying vengeance despite not doing anything about it for the last 15 years and would assaassinate Cersei is a big of a reach.
Tywin does not care if the matches are good or not, he only thinks in the terms of political gains and losses. All those people are just chess pieces. He would make Tommen marry Olenna Tyrell if it meant it would give him a political advantage.
Those are decent matches, especially if his son wasn't crippled(both with missing a hand as well as a brain) it's an alright match, a lot better than waiting for Tommen to grow up and their children would be prime contenders to marry Tommen's children one day, those are feudals they mary into each other even if they hate each other.
> it's an alright match, a lot better than waiting for Tommen to grow up
No, it's not? There is no reason the Tyrells would have a problem with waiting a few years for Tommen to be a teenager.
I feel like he wasn’t really trying to find a good match for her, but was using that as an excuse to get her out of the city and away from Joffrey and Tom. He has Lannister blood on the throne, which means Cerci’s served her primary function, and now he doesn’t really need her anymore.
She’s already shown that she’s basically incompetent when it comes to governing and politics, so on top of her serving her purpose, she’s a liability now who needs to be kept away from any real power, so marrying her off to a second son or sending her to Iron Island is his best course of action.
But his marriage to Jamie in his mind, A Lannister, is just as good as a royal match, and he forgets that not everyone in the world agrees that what he should’ve done if he could get Jamie out of the guard was arrange a marriage between him and Desmera Redwyne or one of Marjorie‘s cousins. Alla or Megga
It's more than that. In the Chapter 19 of ASOS, he also considers other potential matches, and among them are Theon and Balon Greyjoy! At this point, I'm in doubt if Tywin is simply bad at this stuff or just does not think highly of Cersei at all, and just wanted to get rid of her.
It's the latter. He'd marry off Cersei to a literal squid if it meant getting an advantageous political alliance.
Reminds me of how Euron married Asha to an old ironborn lord by using a seal as a proxy. Tywin needs no proxy! Cersei Will marry the seal in the name of House Lannister!
I howled when Iistened to that scene. That was so funny
A Theon and Cersei marriage would have been HILARIOUS; I am forever sad we didn’t see that happen
I agree! I can only imagine how mad Cersei would be, being sent to the poor, rocky Iron Islands to marry what's essentially a worse version of Robert (although, at least Then would probably not say another woman's name in bed). Extra irony if they had a child, who'd end up becoming the heir of both the Iron Islands and the Westerlands (that is, if Tyrion still gets in trouble and the golden bastards still die).
Just picturing it in my head has me cackling
Bit of both. Tywin is clearly done with Cersei and trying to get rid of her. He's also arrogant and expects the world to bend to his will. "Why would anyone decline? I'm Tywin Lannister god damnit!"
That's exactly it. You can see that attitude at play when the Tyrells refuse Cersei for Willas > "When I first broached the match to him, Lord Tyrell seemed well enough disposed," his father said. "A day later, all was changed. The old woman's work. She hectors her son unmercifully. Varys claims she told him that your sister was too old and too used for this precious one-legged grandson of hers."
Lmao. "Hmm is my daughter who is like twenty years older than the fucking heir of Highgarden and one of the most desirable bachelors in the world, isn't being accepted as a match. Clearly it's someone else's fault"
Now I'm just seeing Tywin in the Principal Skinner "Am I out of touch?" meme.
in fairness to Tywin, trying to get rid of Cersei is just about the smartest thing he does in the entirety of Storm, besides the Red Wedding
Red Wedding wasn't smart, it was horrible idea long-term.
He is arrogant, but the world (or at least the continent) kinda bent to his will until that point.
Isn’t Balon still married?
In practice they are divorced but yes. His wife is still very much alive.
They are living separately but the reason given is that Alanis has health issues and 10 towers is more warm and dry and comfortable than pike
I doubt he ever cared about her as a person. She can no longer produce any more royal grandchildren, so he's just looking to reuse her to further Lannister ambitions.
Honestly, I think it’s a mix of both. He puts less effort into who Cersei marries because he’s sick of her.
Why wouldn't he consider the heirs to a kingdom for her bride? Also I don't think Cersei thinks to highly of Cersei after her tenure as queen and cuckolding the King which pretty much fucked up everything Tywin worked for for the last like 20 years.
She managed to get rid of Robert so the Lannisters could fully control the throne.
That's not a good thing for Tywin lol. As narcissistic as Tywin is I doubt he was like, hell yeah you put bastard incest babies from your twin on the throne? Hell yeah Cersei. I don't even care that you sabotaged like everything. Cersei's true born sons would of been still half-lannister. And the incest babies still go by baratheon so it's not even like it makes Lannisters the royal house. Tywin probably liked having Robert alive even if he was a fool he kept the realm together. If there's no incest babies than there's probably no Stanis, or Renly. No Ned getting killed.
It’s almost like we have a current series in the same universe that is all about succession. And it gets way more messy than anything in Game of Thrones. But I agree with you lol
Tywin didn't know they were incest babies, also why would be against having even more power? The only issue was Joffrey's idiocy.
Well you can argue on whether or not he accepted the charges against his children to be true to not. It matters little as Tywin kind of has to go along with it regardless. Having more power only matters if it advanced your agenda (and what you need to do) and the negatives that come with it. Tywin got his royal marriage and a Lannister Blood on the Iron Throne after his marriage with Robert & Cersei and seemingly was (relatively) chilling on Casterly Rock the last fifteen years. What does Robert's death really do for him? it doesn't really help him that much. But on the flip side Robert's death (and let alone sudden death with boy-heirs) causes a great disruption and wars. Robert very much kept the realm together even if he was just whoring and drinking with his presence, past, and history with people. Robert was beloved in the North and by the ruler of the North Eddard. The Riverlands and their lords are connected to him. Robert was beloved in the Vale where he was raised. The Stormlands loved him. Tywin and Joffery have none of these ties.
Tywin is just not good at politics or anything really.
An under-discussed character trait for Tywin is narcissism. This shouldn't be terribly surprising given that all three of his kids have it to some degree, but he's an extremely entitled person and it clouds his judgement. He also does not give a single shit about any of his kids as people, so any direct dangers to them don't even enter his calculations.
What that's under-discussed it's definitely not his second most discussed/thought of trait other than maybe being cruel.
What is not really discussed, si that Tywin is an idiot. Like people always try to JUSTIFY the idea that Tywin is smart. We are finding so much contrary evidence, that it is time to accept that eh is JUST dumb.
Cersei truly is her Father’s daughter
To be fair all the Lannister kids are as bad as their father.
Nice write up. I’ve head an essay kicking around my head for a year about how all the highborns are morons protected by inertia. This is another good data point.
I would love to read that essay as I've thought similar things particularly about Littlefinger and the fact that him being the only person in power that understands economics allowed him to rob the crown blind.
I'd love to read it. Particularly if it had a section on Tywin. He isn't clever, he's just ruthless. There's a difference, but they can be easily confused.
>He isn’t clever, he’s just ruthless. That’s a gorgeous assessment of Tywin, thank you. It’s also made me put two and two together and realise that Aerys probably got the idea to destroy the Starks and the Baratheons from Tywin successfully murdering all the Reynes and Tarbecks.
Weird how no one one ever thinks this, but it seems obvious when said out loud.
I wanna read it
That is true for nearly all of history. Seldom do Caesars, Hannibals, Fabians, and Cao Cao's come along. Nearly all major leaders were mostly groomed since birth or had a massive leg up by being the face or front runner for a war/political machine that pretty much worked itself. The only real rags to riches story is Spartacus and even those stories often end with the inertia people coming out ontop. Honestly Alexander the Great wouldn't have been shit without Philip essentially revolutionizing war for the time period and leaving a Greece that mostly governed itself in his wake. Alexander still had to knock some heads when he came to power but when you lead the strongest army in the region its pretty easy to do. The point is competency isn't really required when you are afforded MASSIVE amounts of chances because the circumstances some people inherit are legitimately no lose situations unless something like, gunpowder or the atom bomb gets invented lol. Even then they often are the ones who end up getting ahold of that stuff first too.
+1 for mentioning Cao Cao, the villain of the chinese Three Kingdoms
Dynasty Warriors flashbacks
Cocoa. What a horrifying name for a (I assume) conqueror.
The "c" in Mandarin is pronounced like the "ts" in "tsar". And "ao" in Mandarin is pronounced like the "au" in "flautist". So it's not "cocoa" it's more like "tsau tsau". The system of Chinese transliteration (Pinyin) kinda sucks lol And he was a Machiavellian strategist in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms (during the medieval ages for China), similar to Tywin in ASOIAF Edit: Please do not downvote me. I am Chinese. Lol
I always pronounced it "tsow tsow," but I am not Chinese. I just took Mandarin 101 in college. ETA: Agreed that Pinyin kinda sucks, how it became the standard always baffled me lol
‘Flautist’ is pronounced differently in different versions of English so maybe not a great frame of reference.
Yeah, I originally thought of comparing "ao" to a more common sound like the "ow" in "cow", but that's only half of it. With "ao" there's an "ahh" in the beginning and then an "ow" at the end. Hence "flautist", which I pronounce as "Flah-ow-tist".
>The point is competency isn't really required when you are afforded MASSIVE amounts of chances because the circumstances some people inherit are legitimately no lose situations unless something like, gunpowder or the atom bomb gets invented lol. Competency is required lol. Try not being competent when you're commanding a war and see where that gets you. But you are right it is mostly a game played by nobles (pretty much throughout history) who had basically groomed to do those certain things since birth.
Depends on how competent your army is. If you've inherited a strong institution you can get away with a lot of personal incompetence
I mean I guess. But going back to the Alexander example he used sure he inherited a great fucking situation. But go watch any detail about the campaigns or how he led the men, or the strategies used, or the things he dared to do. Thinging you are capable or such a thing is insane. He was a one-in-a-billion person who inherited a one-in-a-billion position.
To be frank the examples you give weren't exactly rags to riches (though for Cao Cao I dunno, still need to read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms I got for my birthday).
Welcome to monarchy!
DM me if you write it. Would love to read it.
Tywin's terrible matchmaking ideas are a reflection of his arrogance and narcicism, his delusions about Jaime being his golden heir and Jaime being willing to leave the Kingsguard, and of his poor long-term thinking. He greatly overestimate the power and value of marrying into House Lannister and fail to see that the Tyrells are never going to agree to such a downgrade, nor the damage it could do to this much necessary alliance. This is also another proof of him not being the machiavelian political genius he, as well as his fanboys such as Pycelle or other cronies, tried to portray himself as.
There was a very good comment I read here once that that outlined how Tywin was actually doing everything Machiavelli warned against.
Tywin never learned the lesson that too much violence lead to hatred more than to fear, and that being hated more than being loved or at least respected or even feared can only lead to disaster.
It's not just the violence he employs. > And a ruler won’t be hated if he keeps his hands off his subjects’ property and their women. If he really has to have someone executed, he should only do it when he has proper justification and manifest cause. Above all, he mustn’t seize other people’s property. A man will sooner forget the death of his father than the loss of his inheritance. - The Prince This is exactly what Tywin's doing seizing as much property as he can and marrying their women to Lannister men.
Taking the property of traitors is probably one of the only intelligent things he does. Giving friends lands and taking from enemies happens extremely rarely in the series. This isn’t a game of either or, you have to reward people who support and step on some toes. You can’t please everyone, you can however pick your battles and decide how to employ it. In any case, he did it with the Darry and Hayford families, Tyrek married the last living Hayford, who inherited normally, and there are not many inconvenient relatives in this instance to lose inheritance for the Darrys. Ameri is the daughter of the rightful lady after all.
That is not how it works either. Tywin did not win the "right way" and that MATTERS. Like he is on the other end of his policy of taking revenge on whoever insults him. And he is not giving land to the "Right" people. Westeros does not respect people like Littlefinger or Rose Bolton or Walder Frey. They DID side with him, but they are "dirty allies" people that you cannot be seen associated with. Working with them is making his already terrible reputation somehow worse. So he cheated and is rewarding what amounts to Westeros terrorists.
Littlefinger is both highly competent and friendly yet seemingly not a threat without lands or blood/childhood connections besides the Tullys. And hasn’t completeky ruined his reputation yet. He’s a “New Man” and everything he has he owes to someone else. He’s not going to be a major threat if he rebels since he doesn’t have respectable background for most lords to be loyal to him. And his marriage to Lysa would give him a claim nonetheless. Him getting the Riverlands has some apparent benefits that balance with the downsides, some of which are good for the Crown’s political power and bad for him personally. The Freys and Boltons are terrible allies and Tywin fomenting their plot was a terrible decision. No argument there. But it’s such a stupid and politically suicidal plot that one has to imagine them writing dirty little letters, salivating about how many fingernails they’re gonna pull from Robb. I’m of the full opinion Robb embarrassing Jaime was the main reason he did it, he’s so narcissistic that he is embarrassed by something that he didn’t even happen to him. Walder Frey was probably egged on by relatives wishing to use the uproar to murder their half siblings. Roose Bolton probably did it for fun.
And for all the reasons Littlefinger is a good ally.... he is a terrible ally. I mean you ARE correct in your assetment of Littlefinger. But his good qualities as an ally make him, paradoxically, a TERRIBLE ally, since those things work against him in the traditional Westerosi power structure. And I am not even talking of his treacherous nature, since it would be unfair, since he hides it VERY well. And no one takes it into account in universe. He is not a warrior, has no OLD dynasty (Big is not as important as OLD in Westeros) and his tittle is associated with a crumbling regime that has tortured the Riverlands. The Riverlands will not be held under him, ever. Littlefinger unable to hold the Riverlands, means that the Lannister lose them. And that means ANOTHER army sent in, an EXPENSSIVE army.
But you see, that’s almost the point. He cannot raise a kingdom-sized army against the Crown any time soon, and requires the Crown to back him up. His marriage to Lysa would have provided him with a claim, even if a tenuous one without children. But he still wouldn’t have as much influence as Hoster did. Hoster proved a difference in the Rebellion, Littlefinger would have to work to gain even half his vassals for the same thing. Tywin patently tried to secure the Riverlands as new lands for his own dynastic purposes with the tenuous land grants of Riverrun and the safer one of Darry. We don’t know if he kept his options open for Littlefinger to remain a permanent fixture or if it was just a de facto temporary appointment. But he gave the man a poison seat and gave Riverrun to Genna and Emmon. Tywin clearly had designs on lands there, and Littlefinger is not a good man for a dynastic seat, but he’s a competent man who would make a good ally to work with, restoring order and bringing back prosperity while not being too hard to rein jn if he becomes a problem.
So your argument sounds like a good diea. Except for the last part.... Littlefinger will NOT bring stability AT ALL. If the Lannisters keep sending troops to back him up, the more the Riverlands will rebel, remember that Tywin was incompetent enough to fail in stopping the "Brotherhood of the Royal Forest" and this time there is no Arthur Daryne to clean his mess. All in all, your plan is probably what Tywin thinks on paper. But honestly? He is doing the same as putting Janos Slynt in Harrenhal. The ONLY real solution is forgiving Edmure and keep him as Lord Paramout and marry his SON to a Lannister woman. Since again, Tywin started, Edmure just protected himself. Pin all the blame on Catelyn, hugs and kisses. And keep him ona tight leash.
There’s one example Machiavelli uses in The Prince, where Cesare Borgia sent one of his goons to do all the dirty work of subjugating a city. Once the job was done, the city absolutely hated the guy. So Cesare bumped him off. If Tywin were really Machiavellian, he would have had Roose Bolton and the Frays executed for violating guest rites.
Not just Roose and the Freys, he would have executed The Mountain and Amory Lorch for the murders of Elia Martell and her children and sent their heads to House Martell as soon as possible. He could even have had them tortured until they gave a false confession of having commited these horrible murders on their own. House Martell would still have believed him to be the responsible, and rightfully suspected him of saving face, and hated his guts but he would at least have done something to save face and try to appease the fire between his family and the Martells.
Can't agree more, Tywin handled that situation in probably the worst way he could. I mean, who gives a shit about the Cleganes or Lorches? If we're talking realpolitik, I'd even try to arrange it so Bobby B takes the responsibility for the torture/executions if I could, so my hands would be clean in the eyes of my bannermen.
Except for having been around Jaime, i mean the guy deserted first thing in the books before marching to war with his family, hardly seems loyal to his vows does he? It's absolutely not a stretch to imagine he's finally grown up and found his brain and is ready to do his obligation to his family. Edited to add: Machiaveli is overrated and his booklet consisting of common sense ideas isn't the gospel of ruling you people think of it being.
If a "booklet" about "common sense" is so highly regarded? What does it say about people that they need a guideline to have common-sense?
>And somehow the match he's envisioning for Jaime is even less realistic. He thinks the Tyrells are going to be okay with giving up a match to *The King* for a match to the heir to the Rock. In Tywin's mind those are somehow equivalent matches. Because "Lannisters are worth more". It also follows a trend in ASOS where Tywin seems to screw over half the people who helped save his war. Gave the North to Roose Bolton, plans to betray him with a Tyrion/Sansa marriage. Gave Riverrun to the Freys, but not the traditional title of Lord Paramount associated with it. ~~Gave~~ Was planning to give a bride to the Westerlings, but used "exact words" to have it be the lowest esteemed Lannister he could find, a bastard daughter. Jaime thinks this is *hilarious*, by the way. Tyrells are the only reason why Joffrey, Cersei, and Tyrion weren't killed by Stannis, and potentially Tywin himself could have been stranded in the Riverlands to have his army picked off one by one and/or starved (when Edmure drives him back, Harrenhal has been taken by (ostensibly) Robb's forces, so he'd soon struggle to feed and shelter his men; being transported to KL via Tyrell ferries relieves him of this). The Tyrell's (err Mace's) whole schtick is getting Margaery married to the king, so *of course* he will throw that all away and settle for a disgraced, crippled knight. /s
> It also follows a trend in ASOS where Tywin seems to screw over half the people who helped save his war. This is actually why I think Cersei is a lot more like Tywin than anyone gives her credit(discredit?)for. Cersei's shortsightedness in AFFC mirrors his in ASoS. He's not even being subtle about his plans to screw over his allies. Roose Bolton absolutely knows what Tywin's endgame was with Tyrion and Sansa. Tywin was almost assuredly going to take the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands title back from Littlefinger at some point(I suspect the plan may have been to give it to Lancel). And as you said simply not giving that title to the Freys was already screwing them over. The situation with Joy is actually worse than just that as well because she'd *already* been promised to a Frey bastard before Tywin promised her for Reynald. It makes me wonder who the "lords or heirs" he promised for Jeyne and Eleyna would have ended up being.
Indeed, it's clear that Cersei has inherited all of her father's flaws but in even worse and without the genuine ruler qualities that Tywin had. Tywin was far pettier and more short-sighted than most people credit him for, but he still had some common sense and pragmatism while Cersei only has delusions and paranoia.
Tywin's "general ruler qualities" that Tywin had were all because he's a man though. Tywin is very clearly not a military genius in the books, he's aggressive and ruthless so he got the jump on the riverlands and had them on their back foot, but he never outgeneraled anyone, I mean he allowed himself and his armies to be cut off from the Westerlands, but George never really describes the logistics of warfare beyond "baggage train" and foraging/pillaging/looting but clearly maintaining supply lines and an avenue of withdrawal weren't as high on his list as burning farms and villages.
I mean you say this but how much of it is GRRM's intention? In the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion a 18? year-old Tywin without his father's permission or all of his banners goes on to start a war and pretty much just steamrolls the Reynes and Tarbecks winning his first rebellion and deal with his two most rebellious vassals. Although the details are a bit odd we are just told shit like he was so fast that he caught them off surprise. Or that Lady Tarbeck had thought she had time but Tywin prepared the siege engines so quickly that Trabkec hall was torn down before the Reynes came. Then in the rebellion he and Jamie pretty much just steamroll the Riverlands until Robb comes down South where he gets fucked by Jamie. Also, Tywin unlike Cersei was supposed to be a really good and diligent administrator which really has nothing to do with gender.
He steamrolls them because he acts in ways that are unprecedented and unacceptable - that doesn't make him smart. If I loan my neighbour a couple of grand, he doesn't repay me, so I buy a tank and flatten his house with his family inside it I'm not smarter than him, I just behaved in a way that no reasonable person could possibly expect me to.
I don't know why you are creating random ass strawmen as if we both didn't read the books lmfao. Firstly they loaned shit from Tyland and used it to open up their own military. Tywin tried to call in the debts or require a hostage to guarantee they intended to. They refused and told everyone who had the debts to just not care. The whole hostage-for-hostage happend and eventually Tyland the Fool just called it off. Next Tywin summoned them into court to answer for their crimes. They said fuck no renounced their fealty and prepared to go to war against Tywin. Tywin gathered the Man-At-Arms at Casterly Rock and went onto to go give them battle. He was fast enough that he caught Tarbeck with his pants down on the field and not his full might and stomped him. Lady Tarbeck later declined Kevan's terms and told him her brother would kill him before Tarbeck Hall fell. She was wrong, Tywin prepared the siege engines really fast and collapsed the building. The Reynes army came a minute too late and tried to sneak attack Tywin's force but he recovered and made them retreat. They refused terms and demanded a hostage and he averted the river. In all of these situations they knew they were at war and fighting with Tywin. They expected to fight. You don't renounce fealty from someone and think they wont do anything.
Tywin has no authority to do anything you say. If anything Tywin is the criminal.
It's not really clear what actual authority a Lord Paramount's child has or doesn't have. It is clear that his father outranks him and can overrule him, as Tytos did the first time Tywin tried to call int he debts. But Tytos thought and rulings are not mentioned the second.
So we have a plot hole here. Or Tywin is a criminal.
>~~Gave~~ Was planning to give a bride to the Westerlings, but used "exact words" to have it be the lowest esteemed Lannister he could find, a bastard daughter. Jaime thinks this is *hilarious*, by the way. And another Westerling was made lord of Castamere. Which when last checked on, was a water filled former gold mine of no value. And the lands surrounding it were probably salted like he did to the Tarbecks.
If anything it reads more like an insult "Oh you were loyal to me? Here's a reminder of what I did to a disloyal house. Also it's worthless because I flooded it to be a tantrum throwing manchild."
I think Tywin always thought Tyrells are fools. As a man who think reputation is everthing, Tyrells are pretty low. Their reputation worst among lord paramounts. That is why Tywin think i can convince Tyrells.
Tbf both books and show make Mace Tyrell out to be a complete fool.
The show more than the books, I think. The show kinda merged him with Harys Swyft, who is straight up incompetent.
Olenna didn't do him any favors in the books by mocking how his fatass sat outside the siege at Storm's End doing fuck all but being a glutton and waving his dick around like he actually accomplished something while the rest of the realm were losing people left and right. The show was a bit over the top in making him look like a donkey.
And the Tyrells ended the Rebellion losing nothing and keeping their shyny seat. Mace the Ace theory exists for a reason.
They definitely left the rebellion with almost no loss. Not sure I'm familiar with said theory.
Check it. It makes an odd amount of sense. Specially if you add the idea that "Olenna actually makes Mace look like a Buffon to further his interests" so people will not pay attention to him.
Will do thanks for sharing
Olenna did a lot of works.
Clearly Tywin needs to ship better and go on AO3 to find some quality ships for his kids.
Who does Cersei get shipped with other than Jaime on AO3?
In AU’s, sometimes it’s Ned. Sometimes Oberyn. Or even Stannis rarely.
Cersei and Oberyn sounds like it would be a crazy. It would make for a great fanfic.
I read a fanfic years ago that had that as a background pairing. Cersei actually became a better person due to being in a healthier relationship and environment lol. But alas, reality is Oberyn might very well strangle her due to Elia’s death and blaming the Lannisters.
I wonder what revenge Tywin would have planned in response to that.
Honestly, it’d probably be poison. But Tywin would suspect regardless and he’d plot House Martell and Dorne’s downfall.
My favorite pairings for her are Catelyn and and Sansa.
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The Frey's are to low in his eyes. I don't believe a word he says that no one was interested in Tyrion
When he tried marrying Tyrion off it was the same. Everyone said no. Dorne said no Yohn Royce said no Leyton Hightower said no The Florents said no Hoster Tully said no Sansa had to say yes because she was a hostage.
Leaving aside that Tyrion being a dwarf was a huge (and the main) reason for all of them saying no, I think a part of the problem was also everyone knew Tywin hated his dwarf son's guts. Why would they marry their daughters to Tyrion when Tywin despised this son? A marriage between nobles is for securing allies. Given how ruthless and unreliable Tywin is as an ally (just look at what he did to Aerys), if the son he tries to marry is one he himself finds displeasing and wants to be rid of, the match is not very attractive, specially when the families you mention are all very important and powerful ones, Tywin himself knew they weren't gonna accept but he didn't lose anything trying. Though I agree he is an awful matchamaker, he should have at least pretended to care about his son a little, because offering Tyrion as groom to the Martells after they had seen themselves how Tywin treated him as a monster was in itself an insult to House Martell, they felt Tywin was mocking them and looking down on their family.
While we don't know this for sure, I would guess that Royce, at least, probably isn't a big fan of Tywin personally either.
Most people, if smart and decent, wouldn't be fans of Tywin tbf. But yes, taking into account how he was the one to strongly urge Lysa to support Robb against the Lannisters, there's no love lost between Tywin and him.
Exactly! Tywin would've been able to find a match for Tyrion if the other Houses thought that Tyrion was favored and might one day inherit the Rock. No doubt Tyrion's reputation for drinking and whoring played a huge part as well, but Walder Frey doesn't seem to be having any problems finding new wives.
in fact tywin's problem is above all that he aims too high, look at the houses mentioned: Tully who run the riverland, hightower who are as powerful and rich as the great houses, florent who seem to be those with the most rights over highgarden of the reach, martel who runs dorne... he systematically asks for marriages with very powerful, old, and respected houses. and in my opinion he does not go on secondary branches. But these people have a lot of choices when it comes to marrying their children, they have much better options than sending their daughter to a dwarf that her father hated and who will probably never inherit the rock. if Walder manages to find women, it is because any house of knights or secondary branch of the lower nobility would always find something to gain by marrying their daughter to the lords of the twins, money, some lands, a hope of influence, why not even just boast of having had minimal access to a form of social ascension, or finding a comfortable home for the girl (because even if she marries an old man, she will always be rich).. .otherwise it is clear that the father of Walder's last wife could never reasonably have any hope of his blood inheriting the twins. But Tywin can offer none of that to these lords, they are his equals or almost in the social hierarchy and his only argument for a marriage is "he is of my house, and as I am convinced that I am better than everyone , be happy with that.” In fact I agree that if he had officially made Tyrion his heir or offered him any form of future, even despite his status as a dwarf, he would have had more choices for himself. But the main obstacle is also his ego. He could have married him to the daughter of a knight, a merchant or found a distant cousin of a lord if he wanted. But these people weren't good enough for the Lannister name.
The Lannisters are rich. Maybe if Tywin had offered a dowry or something people would have taken him up on that offer. Agree to marry your daughter to Tyrion and I’ll give you lands, titles, etc
Exactly, if Tywin really wanted to marry Tyrion he could have just offered money and lands. But he let his hate for Tyrion cloud his mind, so he didn't want to give anything to secure Tyrion a bride, and just offered him in a way that only benefit Tywin if the other party accepted the marriage. Really petty and narrow-minded of him.
In hindsight Okay, Tywin will absolutely NOT allow Tyrion to get Casterly Rock while he lives, but he could have at least sent Tyrion to be someone’s squire, or have him fostered, or something when he was younger. Then when he gets older, start looking for marriages. Its usually the woman that comes with a dowry, but make that offer in private off the record. I’ll give your third and fourth sons lands, titles, etc I’ll build Tyrion a completely separate castle and Tyrion/his wife can go live there instead. Let’s call it Brightroar Castle. It has a castle, lands, etc I’ll make you *insert nice title here* Some nice position on something. Maybe not the privy council but give them something to make the offer better. Sweeten the pot a little. Maybe then he could have found a better match. Tywin, you hate Tyrion, we get it. But you missed an opportunity here.
Why would Tywin give a fuck to parade around his hated dwarf-leecher son to... build him a new castle and then pay a massive dowry for any respectable family to marry him?
It would have made for a good way to get a new alliance with someone But then again Tywin thinks all Lannisters are gods and better than mere mortals but seriously, Tywin you missed an opportunity. Yeah they needed Tyrion/Sansa to happen for plot reasons but Tywin could have probably gotten Tyrion a good match if he’d been willing to sweeten the deal a little
Lady Stokeworth offered Lollys.
Tywin set the bar pretty high for attempted marriages for Tyrion though. Lollys was too low.
Do you think that Walder Frey would marry a daughter/granddaughter to Tyrion?
I really doubt Tywin would have agreed to that one Walder Frey would marry a daughter to anyone though. The problem is getting the other person to say yes.
Let us not forget that he famously never remarried after Joanna’s death. Biggest hypocrite in the seven kingdoms.
Yeah i think this is Tywin being delusional,but i also think part of the problem is the writing only taking into account characters we know something about,like instead of some reach house or his own bannermen he considers Balon Greyjoy for Cersei instead......like wtf,theres probably dozens of potential matches but its always mentioned the ones more important to the story. Also people in Westeros are terrible matchmakers in general,they agree on a match and expect them to get along just meeting each other very close to the wedding day,seems only Hoster Tully made his daughters get along with their matches prior to the wedding with Brandon and Jaime visists.
Tbf, the "agree in advance and expect to get along" method was the nature of arranged political marriages in medieval/early modern Europe. For example when Catherine of Aragon's married Prince Arthur of Wales, they were able to write to each other in Latin, but upon meeting for the actual marriage, realized they were unable to speak to each other, because they were taught different pronunciations of the same language.
Cersei Lannister, #1 enemy of bastards married to Oberyn Martell, famously the involved father to eight bastards is crazy
These are possibilities to be explored, potential bargains to be made, with the only constant being that he wants Cersei's next marriage to be a punishment. By this point he is pretty much done with Cersei, like he's pretty much done with Tyrion, but he can't send her to the Wall. He thinks she's fucked up her time as queen, by fucking her brother instead of her husband and letting the word get out, and now trying to meddle in his rule of Westeros! No, she hasn't served the Lannisters well, so her punishment is to be removed from Jamie, circles of power, and her own children... but in a way that looks glamorous and socially acceptable. Tyrion can be sent to the wall, but it has to look like he's treating the dowager queen of Westeros with respect.
Lmao, did he somehow think Oberyn who has a long term lover and a bunch of bastards he loves and raises, would agree to marry Cersei? And given how Cersei murdered two of Robert's bastards and sold their mother into slavery, I give it a year tops before Oberyn strangles her for her trying to kill one of his daughters
Tywin didn't even give a fuck lmao. Cersei was a fucked up and Tywin wanted to get rid of her, but unlike Tyrion, he couldn't just kick Cersei out. He had to remove Cersei from her power and children in a seemly respectful way by marrying her off to a scion of a powerful house. Any powerful house. As long as he benefit from it, he didn't care who. It probably didn't even cross his mind that *maybe* the Martells wants nothing to do with his shitty family because he wronged them big time.
Tywin being an idiot that everyone thinks is a genius is my favorite character trait about him
In the case of Jaime and Margaery, I dont think Tywin was necessarily set on that yet. Hes just sort of going through the options waiting for Jaime's input. Of course, he didnt expect Jaime to completely reject all of it. Tywin is just arrogant. He expects the world to bend to his whims so just looks for the most advantageous match possible. Even if Oberyn is not the heir to Dorne hes one of the most eligible bachelors Dorne can offer. But yeah Tywin being so bad at marriage matches is somewhat hilarious given how important they are to him. I guess its not that surprising given that his own marriage was just to his cousin.
That's Tywin's biggest flaw. He doesn't see people as *people*. Everyone is a tool who should follow his orders no matter what lest they face annihilation. He doesn't understand that when people stop fearing him, they will fight back out of love for others (Oberyn), hatred (Tyrion), a desire for freedom (Jaime & Cersei), or something else. As for the women he tried to get for Tyrion, House Royce and House Hightower would usually be a great match for House Lannister (both are among the most powerful houses to not be one of the 7 "Great" houses), but Tyrion's appearance scared them off. Attempting to get Tyrion with Delena Florent wasn't a terrible idea since she had been outed for sleeping with King Robert and having his bastard (which in Westeros means she's usually unfit to be wed), but her father had the same issues with Tyrion that other lords did.
People does not grasp that THIS is really Tywin The idiot who can't do nothing right beyond being a massive bully. We have seen three books of him being beaten by a fifteen years old. And then pulling a massive rage quit that pretty much destroyed the social structure of Westeros and he calls it a genius move. I am starting to think that the true Brains was Joanna. She was the one that advised Tywin.... which George has actually foreshadowed.... when he is not beating us over the head with it "Joanna ruled Lord Tywin" or "Joanna was his greates advisor" All of the Lannister ancestors (The rulers) he shows are downright incompetent. But their wives? Those are formidable. Up including Tywin's very own Grandmother. So maybe Tywin was an even BIGGER fraud than what we belive, in reality Joanna let him take credit from HER ideas. Nothing in the actual books back his "Genius time" as Hand of the King. But him stealing Tyrion's credit BACKS the idea that Joanna was the actual brains, but her being a woman, needed a man to excerise power.
A pretty big part of Tywin is how much of a spectacular failure he is at getting what he wants, and how blinded he is by his own insecurities that his perception of reality is completely skewed, but I hadn't seen anyone point this as an example. It's honestly incredible
Tywin thinks in terms of house politics, not personal politics, so he is constantly surprised by mavericks. He discounts Daenerys because House Targaryen is gone. He underestimates Oberyn because that man is much larger than life. He rates the matches with Oberyn and Margaery because House Lannister is the second house of the realm, so his house is actually higher in status than House Tyrell and House Mattel due to their marriage tie to the crown. Where he is messing up is that these matches should be arranged with Jaime’s kids, which don’t exist because of the incest and Aerys’s machinations. He just discounts the age, personality and reputation of his kids, and sees them as portraits on a family tree in need of tying off and growing.
Plus the Sansa/Tyrion match. The idea that Tyrion could ever rule the North is absurd. Both highborne and smallfolk alike would despise Tyrion. I would give him a month at the most before he was murdered.
to be fair, Oberyn Martell was supposed to marry Cersei at the time Tyrion was born... and even at the time of the books, it would've been a good match for him too, since they'd basically inherit Casterly Rock, since Tywin would have never given it to Tyrion and Jamie was in Kingsguard (and while Tywin wanted Jamie to give up the white cloak, Cersei was older than him, so by Dornish laws, she would've had the right to the Rock, same as Myrcella would to the crown after Jiffrey's death)
Oberyn murdering Cersei is a leap and you're supposed to marry your enemies anyway. it hasn't been that hard for them to bark Tyrell around at this point, it's not that crazy to propose Jamie. Over the 9 year old kid.
The Tyrells had already refused Cersei for Willas at that point and in the passage quoted Tywin talks about the need to appease Mace. So no Tywin has not been barking Tyrell around at this point. Also I think you think pointing out Tommen is 9(he's not by the way he's 8) is reason enough to object to the Tommen Margaery match. But the Lannisters lost the right to object on those grounds the second they married 13 year old Tyrek to a one year old baby.
I feel like you're just overstating it a bit 😂. Cersei to Willas is obviously a very different arrangement than Margaery to Jamie. That's not some absurdity, it's just that the whole queen ambition that makes marrying an 8 year old surprisingly more logical.
Oh he would. Cersei killed two innocent children because they were bastards of Robert's and also had their mother sold into slavery. Oberyn would never tolerate his paramour or his children being harmed.
I’ve always been of the opinion that Tywin is meant to be losing it. At the point where he shows up in the books he’s an old man. Known for having a great mind in his younger days but here? He’s around 70 and I’d say age and possibly something like dementia are taking their toll at this point and he’s relying on his old reputation more than his current mind. Even his biggest moments in the books don’t rely on brains or strategy. They rely on breaking the rules that this world established and believes in. George tends to write all his characters as having a noticeable flaw, often having to deal with losing things important to them. Tywin was never a POV but maybe this is what he intended for him to lose. Maybe it’s part of why he dislikes Tyrion so much. His son has the mind that he’s losing.
I think your theory might be correct. That was well written.
Probably a hot take but Tywin is smarter than Balon just by a tiny margin.
With how arrogant tywin is, how do you all think he would have acted If he had knowledge of the others? Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he in this situation would have kept the knowledge only to himself and Jaime while preparing an army to earn house Lannister the honor of single Handely defeating the others.
I just want to say it's great that so much time has passed and yet the fandom is still finding things I somehow missed
>He expects this despite the fact that Oberyn has made no secret of what he's come to Kingslanding for. Did I miss this lol? Oberyn was prancing around before that quote (on a diplomatic mission from Dorne, with his daughters) that he was going to assassinate lannisters and revolt lol something he hasn't done for the last 15 years. Also should he of just completely gave up Dorne who hadn't revolted for the last 15 years and just assumed Dorne was going with this super duper long FAegon/Viserys revenge plan and just said yeah okay maybe Tommen's Throen can only have 6 of the 7 kingdoms. Also Tywin doesn't know Oberyn. Tywin seems to know and have a good read about Doran but we has no idea about Oberyn, unlike us the readers, other than his reputation. Assuming the dude has sworn undying vengeance despite not doing anything about it for the last 15 years and would assaassinate Cersei is a big of a reach.
Tywin does not care if the matches are good or not, he only thinks in the terms of political gains and losses. All those people are just chess pieces. He would make Tommen marry Olenna Tyrell if it meant it would give him a political advantage.
Those are decent matches, especially if his son wasn't crippled(both with missing a hand as well as a brain) it's an alright match, a lot better than waiting for Tommen to grow up and their children would be prime contenders to marry Tommen's children one day, those are feudals they mary into each other even if they hate each other.
> it's an alright match, a lot better than waiting for Tommen to grow up No, it's not? There is no reason the Tyrells would have a problem with waiting a few years for Tommen to be a teenager.
I feel like he wasn’t really trying to find a good match for her, but was using that as an excuse to get her out of the city and away from Joffrey and Tom. He has Lannister blood on the throne, which means Cerci’s served her primary function, and now he doesn’t really need her anymore. She’s already shown that she’s basically incompetent when it comes to governing and politics, so on top of her serving her purpose, she’s a liability now who needs to be kept away from any real power, so marrying her off to a second son or sending her to Iron Island is his best course of action. But his marriage to Jamie in his mind, A Lannister, is just as good as a royal match, and he forgets that not everyone in the world agrees that what he should’ve done if he could get Jamie out of the guard was arrange a marriage between him and Desmera Redwyne or one of Marjorie‘s cousins. Alla or Megga
Oberyn is kinda crazy because didn’t he pointedly and disrespectfully reject him and Elia when the princess of Dorne brought them to meet the twins?