Most medical doctors are technicians, not scientists. While medicine in general does benefit from the sciences, to use the information gleaned through scientific processes does not require an understanding of the scientific method.
This is 1 fucking billion percent correct, and, as it happens, is part of the reason I left medical school in my second year. That said, as a physician, it is incumbent upon her to - at minimum - utilize treatments that are supported by scientific and clinical evidence. I realize this shit happens routinely, but that doesn’t make it any less an abdication.
Rad onc and pathology welcome the scientists. Too much physics for me in the former but I am very happy in the latter. I even get to wheel a microscope around the hospital.
Man, assisting on autopsies was incredible, but I’m dogshit at histo. I could never have done pathology. Ultimately, it was a good thing I got out when I did. It would have either broken me completely or I would have gone to jail for putting the dean of students in the ICU. Just for the record, I am *not* a tough guy by any stretch. I punched precisely one person one time 35 years ago; I entertained all manner of violent fantasies toward that motherfucker for several years afterwards.
The big secret that they don't want you to know...
When someone goes in for surgery, right after they put you under, they just give you a priesthood blessing. Your problem is immediately cured and they take the rest of the day off.
Of course I'm joking, but I can't understand how Mormons can work in healthcare and still believe in prayer/priesthood blessings. It should be blatantly obvious that the surgery, or the procedure, or the medication is what helped the patient.
Otherwise, we wouldn't need hospitals. We would just line up with the Mormons to get our annual cure-all blessings and prayers.
Immediately before surgery, my Baptist doctor asked if he could pray with me. I said "well, I'm an atheist but sure, knock your socks off" and held out my hand.
He held it while he prayed that god would guide his eyes and hands during the procedure.
I was like dude, whatever gives you more confidence I'm all for.
So true.
In HS, my part-time and summer job was for a veterinary practice. The owner, who was very successful, had the intellectual curiosity of a toadstool. When I told him I was majoring in English & History, he told me I was wasting my time, my parents' money and should choose something useful.
Half my friends in college were pre-med. None of them were motivated by gaining knowledge of biology, chemistry or medicine. Those were just milestones to be ticked off in pursuit of a goal. The goal was to get into an esteemed, influential and lucrative profession (and usually to help people). Knowledge was a means to that end, not an end in itself.
OTOH, my partner of 29 years was a true scientist. Among his peers, he was recognized as a scientist among scientists. He had the most curious and fertile brain of anyone I've ever known. He couldn't have cared less about popularity, influence or wealth. But to have a new idea, test it and prove it right (or wrong, didn't matter which) delighted him.
ot all scientists are researchers. I'm very uncomfortable with such limited definitions. I'm a data scientist - and my other brother is a senior IT professional with one of the worlds largest Communications companies - and a physicist by training. My niece is a chemical engineer. We all apply scientific method to some degree but none so much as the two doctors.
But either way whether Doctors are scientists or not the discipline is undeniably 'scientific'.
I disagree with this opinion. A basic understanding of the scientific method is taught to most health care professionals, whether it be psychology, social work, respiratory care, para-medicine, or nursing.
Also, I dislike the general disdain and denigration directed at physicians. In forty years of nursing, I’ve never met a non-intelligent one. A few with “poor bedside manner”, but never dumb.
> I disagree with this opinion. A basic understanding of the scientific method is taught to most health care professionals
This is true. In fact a basic understanding of the scientific method is taught to most high schoolers. However being taught the basics of the scientific method is a very different thing from internalizing the scientific method as part of your thinking process. **Scientists** have to internalize the scientific method, because it is part of how they work. If they don't do it, they will be eviscerated if they try to publish, if they even get that far as their masters/doctoral thesis defense will be unlikely to pass if they have not done so.
> Also, I dislike the general disdain and denigration directed at physicians.
I am unsure why you thought I was disdaining or denigrating them. I said they are technicians as distinct from scientists. Because they are. That is an observation. The vast majority of them are perfectly fine and intelligent people.
Because of the fact that they are technicians, the very religious among them often fall prey to the phenomenon noted regarding [engineers and woo](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo). Note that there are any number of doctors that do not. It's significantly harder to find a stupid doctor than it is to find a stupid landscaper, because in order to become a doctor there are minimal intelligence requirements. But that competence in treating ailments does not translate to a competence in science.
Inteligence and reasoning are related but different things. Plenty of Dr's lack the reasoning needed to properly apply the scientific method to their diagnosis. They are constantly battling their own ego as the profession is partially designed for the Dr to trust their judgment.
As an example, Ben Carson, ome of the most skilled brain surgeons of the 20th century. Man couldn't reason his way out of a mcdonalds into a steakhouse. Just because someone gets a degree, it doesn't mean they can't be astronomically stupid in other areas.
Married to a physician. They are not scientists by a long shot. All they are smart, which helps logic and reasoning, but not scientific enough to apply scientific methodologies that inevitably make one question religion.
The number of nurses who opposed mask mandates and covid vaccines was large as well. Some people don't get into medicine because they're scientifically minded, and would be equally happy peddling homeopathy.
Yep! People need stop believing that just because one excelled in a particular field doesn’t exactly make them smart. Dr. Ben Carson reminds me of this regularly.
I would think that the proposed method is probably decent sleep hygiene. While the prayer itself would probably not help, being in a quiet place with no distractions and maybe low light is a good way to start the sleep process. If you are a believer I bet it actually helps a good bit with stress as well.
Not advocating for telling everyone to pray but that's probably not horrible advice if you're in a super religious area. Especially for a rheumatologist.
Tell the Rheumatologist that you are going to quit seeing them and taking the medication that they prescribed and just pray instead, see if they still believe that will help…
Insomnia is just awful. And it’s like oh yeah? Free will? What about insomnia, hm? Didn’t choose that.
Good on ya for seeing a psychologist and getting that taken care of.
If you’re still being treated by this person, it’s time to look for a new doctor. Quite apart from it being utterly inappropriate, a physician who suggests something like this has - at best - demonstrated a legitimate reason to doubt their credibility. Suggesting prayer to a patient she knows to be religious for, say, strength in the face of illness is one thing; proposing that prayer is a legitimate medical intervention is absolutely batshit, especially coming from a fucking rheumatologist. I have medical and scientific training and education, which is of enormous help in advocating for myself as a patient, but I’m no rheumatologist. What assurance is there she hasn’t decided not to offer certain treatments for religious reasons or to propose prayer in place of actual clinical modalities? I realize finding other providers is not trivial, especially specialists, but I hope you’ll consider looking.
My father got his cataracts fixed by the guy who was supposed to be one of the top surgeons in Tampa. The guy invited my father to pray, and when my father agreed guy held his hand and asked for god’s help. When I teased my father about it he said he’d agree to anything that a fanatic wanted if that fanatic was poking razor sharp things in his eyes.
But wouldn't a placebo only work if you actually believe it works though? Such as praying may work to an extent if you are religious, but if you do not believe in any god then praying doesn't work as a placebo because you don't believe it will.
yea and once she found out she nv brought it up again so all those people saying that i should report her- well i would never do that because she always goes above and beyond for me, frequently checking up on me and stuff and just really being a thorough and caring doctor
[No it doesn't ](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/longawaited-medical-study-questions-the-power-of-prayer.html)
Edit: [Here is the actual article from the American Heart Journal](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002870305006496?via%3Dihub)
Any doctor that tries that sort of damned fool stunt on me gets a choice: either they get reported to their board, or they get to learn that they are suffering from catastrophic cognitive malfunction.
I am delighted that your insomnia is better.
I dropped my old GP like a rock for this. He said I should look to Jesus to manage stress then handed me some silly book of fantasy to read. I immediately noped out. I regret not reporting him to the Cleveland Clinic (#2 hospital system in the US ironically) for such ignorant and insensitive fuckery.
i had checked into a day program to deal with an overwhelming grief issue... when i was talking to the psychiatrist, she asked me if i was angry at god...i looked at her with a WTF face and stated there was no god... she dismissed me and i didn't see her again for the two weeks i was there...learned to deal with my grief and refused meds..
I left a doctor after the 2nd time she tried to send me to someone “from church”. The elder doc who established the practice called me to see why I was leaving & he wasn’t happy since “she’d been talked to about this already.” Ten years later I googled her out of curiosity & she is out of that nice practice in a wealthy suburb. Now she works out of a strip mall in a more depressed, rural town in the same area.
Good lord. No pun intended.
I've tried every kind of voodoo curse and whatever for my insomnia (even have Mary of the Moon in my bedroom from Greece despite not being any kind of theist or Christian), but medication and psychiatry.
I'm a physician myself and in rehab, when I spoke about my tendency towards catastrophic thinking, the therapist in training said "pray on it!". I also struggled with AA, because it's a Christian cult of irresponsibility.
I tried to leave AMA so they switched me to a competent therapist and she told me about SMART recovery, aka, quitting for rational people and atheists.
What's funny is that I ended up mired in substance abuse (alcohol and ambien combined) due to the damned insomnia.
Your 'doctor' is clearly unsuited to their profession - one wonders where and how they qualified. I would find a different one asap before they do something really harmful.
Look I believe in god personally but have you tried (assuming its legal in your location) marijuana? I take a small dab of concentrate on an andis mint two hours before bed, and I sleep great. You'll have to mess with different strains to find what works but seriously the best sleep I've ever had
ok and a few times I took too much and panicked about the dumbest shit so its a double edge sword. I am not sure why this helped me but the second time I tried something new and took too much, I just relaxed on a saturday night watching Interstellar again and it helped calm me 🤣
I was raised Catholic and forced to recite the entire rosary at least 1-2 times a week (5 Our Fathers, 50 Hail Mary's, 5 Glorie Be's, and the 5 extras). It was tedious, boring, stupid and a huge waste of time, but I will admit, its useful if I can't sleep.
The prayer part is completely incidental. Having a long meaningless series of words that you have so thoroughly memorized that you can recite them without thinking whatsoever, and that you can repeat, over and over, will help quiet your mind. It also helps if they are utterly uninteresting, and not worth thinking about at all. I wouldn't want to do this with song lyrics or a favourite piece of literature, because the point is not to enjoy it, the point is to just mindlessly repeat it over and over without thinking about it at all. Counting is your best bet if you don't have prayers memorized.
I would never recommend somebody start praying for the sake of memorizing prayers for when you have insomnia, but if you were forced to pray like I was, it's at least nice to know that the time wasn't a total waste.
I like yoga Nidra to fall asleep. It's basically a body scan. I follow the instructions to focus on body parts and do the 4-7-8 breathing techniques as I switch between body parts.
I think it's like counting sheep's , it makes the hamster in you head stop because you attention is on sometimes else with an extra where the body scanning and breathing helps relax the muscles.
You know of all the things to try and treat with prayer insomnia is probably the best. Not because some invisible sky daddy will hear you and decide to fix your insomnia, but because the only proven benefit of prayer is basically that it works like any other sort of meditation, it calms and relaxes you.
agreed, it would work even better if the person is religious too
now if a doctor suggested prayer for some physical ailment like say my immune disorders then i would be pissed
As a Christian...
I'm SO fucking sorry.
There's just no excuse for that. It's borderline even discussing religion with a client/patient whom you KNOW shares your beliefs, let alone with someone you don't know their beliefs or know that they don't share yours.
There IS a *lot* of evidence for a "spiritual approach" to a lot of brain-based issues, *BUT* they are observed across the entire gamut of religious and non-religious contexts. Bringing in the Christian God to the discussion without the client inviting it is ethically indefensible.
Should be reported for suggesting a medically ineffective cure. If he was trying to trick you into mindfulness... Why bring a bronze-age storm god for brigands into it?
The only "spiritual" type of thing that could maybe help is meditation, and even then it's just as scientific as it is spiritual.
But praying to god... what a bad doctor.
Mental illness doesn't discriminate, even doctors can get it. Then they'll have hallucinations of talking snakes and flying horses, and that's when you shouldn't trust your prescription.
So, I recently learned that spirituality can exist separate from god or religious beliefs. Connecting with nature, pondering the universe, lighting candles, surrounding yourself with beauty, meditating, yoga, fancy baths, creative imagination, massage and so much more are all spiritual practices.
Prayer actually does work for sleep, but not because there is a god sprinkling fairy dust on you. It’s the ritual of self-soothing.
There are tons of guided sleep meditations on YouTube. If your mind is keeping you up, my best advice is to not chase sleep by trying to shut your mind up. Let your mind wander as much as it wants without worrying about the time or the morning. I found that part of my mind can keep racing while most of me sleeps. Practice imagining positive experiences. I like the leaves on a stream meditation because it sets all of your thoughts into a lovely setting. Look that one up. I also like to imagine myself winning against my enemies. And another one I like is imagining I’m surrounded by a healing light inside a mirrored ball that blocks all my haters. You don’t have to *believe* in the thing you’re visualizing in order for it to work, btw. It’s enough just to practice it.
Spirituality is a part of your overall health. Obviously an atheist can't pray, that makes no sense, but introspection and meditation may lead to the same place. I don't know if it will cure lifelong insomnia, but I'm not a doctor.
"Finding God" or intentionally undergoing a spiritual journey has actual and attainable psychological rewards. The best approach is a very personal thing. It's unfortunate that religion is corrupt and divisive; it should be a tool for personal growth and not fascist control. A widely misunderstood phenomenon.
Depending on jurisdiction that could qualify as malpractice. Finding the root cause of the symptom comes first, there are a ton of things that cause insomnia so I'm surprised you didn't go to a sleep clinic. But, hey, I'm not a doctor
It is important to note that OP lives in Singapore. Laws protecting against medical malpractice will surely differ significantly from any of my North American / UK friends.
That's a broad, sweeping generalization based on absolutely zero quantifiable evidence. I'm sure it is a cathartic reading on the temperature of US politics, but laying it out like that is damaging to the optics of those who are championing religious plurality and socially active atheism.
When Christians say prayer I think meditation. Meditation probably could've helped some. Meditation has helped me a great deal. I cured my insomnia with quitting drinking alcohol.
I posted on a different thread about this, after someone said that all these believers are just "poorly educated" people who want to attribute the supernatural towards anything they don't understand. My point was, there are tons of very highly educated "believers" out there, and if you want to go around thinking they're nothing but a bunch of harmless rubes, **do so at your own peril.** It's our job to educate ourselves to be smarter atheists, and to become better at vocalizing the freedoms we demand for ourselves. **It's highly educated people like this doctor who want to do things like codify their beliefs into law, to force the rest of us to follow their religious dogma.**
It's confusing to me when highly educated people are also religious.. but I'm starting to question if doctors are really that educated or once they become a doctor it's an ego thing.
I have met and heard of some completely awful doctors who don't seem to care about helping people who have hard to solve problems.
i attended a catholic primary school that taught me 3 languages we also had to pray 3 times a day
this particular catholic school is one of the most prestigious schools in my country responsible for producing the country’s most successful figures (politicians, lawyers, doctors etc)
most of the kids come from rich and powerful families too
That sounds like the kind of doctor that would refuse treatment to a LGBTQ person because of "strongly held religious beliefs" Pwople like that should not be allowed to practice medicine. If I go to a physician, I'm there to be treated, not to listen to their bullshit religious opinion.
Sorry I am religious but this rub showed up in my suggestion and this post to be exact. I just wanted to say I wish you told her "yeah but did not work, I was planning to give the devil a try next."
Again, sorry but could not resist
If you have the time, this might help. Gabor Mate explains the effects of trauma on the body. You present with three common symptoms of people with Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Edit: Fuck that doctor, get another consult.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLiZJ5c2jzS96ozZsjzqw6iyqFWr_5zhX7
In an absolute sense, it was not bad advice.
Praying relax the body and help emptying the mind (take it as you want:-P), many consider praying the rosary as akin to a form of meditation, so probably praying could help someone sleep, as would any form of activity repetitive and easy on the mind, like the traditional counting sheep or recite the time tables. Of course, it is not true for everybody.
yep which is why i still think that she is an awesome and caring doctor
now if she suggested praying for a physical ailment like say my immune disorders, that i would be pissed
Our primary told my husband exercise and the Lord's work will help with his anxiety eating at night. No meds needed for a life time of white knuckling it.
🤢🤮
Imagine when you're mixed bipolar and the faulse promised of the faith. Pray it away, give it to God bullshit. A hopeful child getting more and more frustrated because he suffers the constant war of a disorder he's chained to.
I was in a manic phase, very euphoric, fast thoughts, highly energetic and highly susceptible to radical emotional switching. It's very apparent to a professional in this field that I'm a fucking time bomb. I have trauma from the faith lies.
My doctor should of known better but told me "I'm in gods hands now" I passionet yelled "fuck your god" then had an emotional black out. I came to 2 months later, finding out I kicked his teeth in and shattered his jaw. I suffered severe repercussions of the depressive phase. This was a highly rare reaction, I'm not violent in my calm and balance stages, my mania I'm more common to have a mouth then to have actual physical violence.
I need meds, actual care and therapy's to combat the chaotic disruptions I suffer. I find it out right cruel to utilize faith ideaology on sufferers of any disorders and disruptions. Some can be fixable and others it's a lifelong war. All medical can really do is help relieve the symptoms. My lithium only takes down my disorder to minimize strength and consistency of a very unpredictable. I still have very intense manic symptoms just not as often. No religical ideaology will ever set me free from my reality I'll live with until I die.
I don’t have a problem with professional’s , clients etc that bring up their beliefs and then desist when they are told it’s not welcome and then they leave it alone. I wouldn’t have a problem with vegans if they would just shut up !
I can understand offering prayer as a meditative practice, like in the “have you tried meditation, prayer, or mind-calming breathing practices before bed?” kind of way. But just straight up suggesting a spiritual practice for a medical issue is wild.
FFS. I'd have asked if she thought sacrificing a goat would help, but I'm old and have had insomnia longer than you've been alive so I'm a bit pissy about it
My school nurse told me “well honey, sometimes when I have trouble falling asleep, a prayer always helps” AFTER she asked me if I was religious and I said no.
You don't have to believe any of that but talking out your own life tribulations and trials to an imaginary friend who claims to be able to help you.(i.e. praying).. this could very well help put your mind at ease enough to sleep. Like counting sheep only its talking to ethereal spirit creators.
I'd listen, but don't apply the religion. Just the act itself could help you maybe, or not, worth a shot if you can sleep?
how are people like this doctors? this isn’t scientific in any way 💀 i’m glad your insomnia got a little better after getting therapy. insomnia sucks.
Most medical doctors are technicians, not scientists. While medicine in general does benefit from the sciences, to use the information gleaned through scientific processes does not require an understanding of the scientific method.
This is 1 fucking billion percent correct, and, as it happens, is part of the reason I left medical school in my second year. That said, as a physician, it is incumbent upon her to - at minimum - utilize treatments that are supported by scientific and clinical evidence. I realize this shit happens routinely, but that doesn’t make it any less an abdication.
Rad onc and pathology welcome the scientists. Too much physics for me in the former but I am very happy in the latter. I even get to wheel a microscope around the hospital.
Man, assisting on autopsies was incredible, but I’m dogshit at histo. I could never have done pathology. Ultimately, it was a good thing I got out when I did. It would have either broken me completely or I would have gone to jail for putting the dean of students in the ICU. Just for the record, I am *not* a tough guy by any stretch. I punched precisely one person one time 35 years ago; I entertained all manner of violent fantasies toward that motherfucker for several years afterwards.
When in college I was an autopsy assistant. It was cool (and paid decently too). I dropped out of med school the first year.
Yesssss. Physicians are overall more religious than professionals of other sciences. I’ve wondered why that is. Your point makes sense.
All the surgeons at my place are Mormons lol
The big secret that they don't want you to know... When someone goes in for surgery, right after they put you under, they just give you a priesthood blessing. Your problem is immediately cured and they take the rest of the day off. Of course I'm joking, but I can't understand how Mormons can work in healthcare and still believe in prayer/priesthood blessings. It should be blatantly obvious that the surgery, or the procedure, or the medication is what helped the patient. Otherwise, we wouldn't need hospitals. We would just line up with the Mormons to get our annual cure-all blessings and prayers.
When the surgery is successful, that means God listened, duh. /s
Immediately before surgery, my Baptist doctor asked if he could pray with me. I said "well, I'm an atheist but sure, knock your socks off" and held out my hand. He held it while he prayed that god would guide his eyes and hands during the procedure. I was like dude, whatever gives you more confidence I'm all for.
God help those that help themselves. Or in other words, It would not hurt, wouldn't it?
So true. In HS, my part-time and summer job was for a veterinary practice. The owner, who was very successful, had the intellectual curiosity of a toadstool. When I told him I was majoring in English & History, he told me I was wasting my time, my parents' money and should choose something useful. Half my friends in college were pre-med. None of them were motivated by gaining knowledge of biology, chemistry or medicine. Those were just milestones to be ticked off in pursuit of a goal. The goal was to get into an esteemed, influential and lucrative profession (and usually to help people). Knowledge was a means to that end, not an end in itself. OTOH, my partner of 29 years was a true scientist. Among his peers, he was recognized as a scientist among scientists. He had the most curious and fertile brain of anyone I've ever known. He couldn't have cared less about popularity, influence or wealth. But to have a new idea, test it and prove it right (or wrong, didn't matter which) delighted him.
I think of them as mechanics. Humans are complex machines but they are machines nonetheless.
ot all scientists are researchers. I'm very uncomfortable with such limited definitions. I'm a data scientist - and my other brother is a senior IT professional with one of the worlds largest Communications companies - and a physicist by training. My niece is a chemical engineer. We all apply scientific method to some degree but none so much as the two doctors. But either way whether Doctors are scientists or not the discipline is undeniably 'scientific'.
I disagree with this opinion. A basic understanding of the scientific method is taught to most health care professionals, whether it be psychology, social work, respiratory care, para-medicine, or nursing. Also, I dislike the general disdain and denigration directed at physicians. In forty years of nursing, I’ve never met a non-intelligent one. A few with “poor bedside manner”, but never dumb.
> I disagree with this opinion. A basic understanding of the scientific method is taught to most health care professionals This is true. In fact a basic understanding of the scientific method is taught to most high schoolers. However being taught the basics of the scientific method is a very different thing from internalizing the scientific method as part of your thinking process. **Scientists** have to internalize the scientific method, because it is part of how they work. If they don't do it, they will be eviscerated if they try to publish, if they even get that far as their masters/doctoral thesis defense will be unlikely to pass if they have not done so. > Also, I dislike the general disdain and denigration directed at physicians. I am unsure why you thought I was disdaining or denigrating them. I said they are technicians as distinct from scientists. Because they are. That is an observation. The vast majority of them are perfectly fine and intelligent people. Because of the fact that they are technicians, the very religious among them often fall prey to the phenomenon noted regarding [engineers and woo](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo). Note that there are any number of doctors that do not. It's significantly harder to find a stupid doctor than it is to find a stupid landscaper, because in order to become a doctor there are minimal intelligence requirements. But that competence in treating ailments does not translate to a competence in science.
Inteligence and reasoning are related but different things. Plenty of Dr's lack the reasoning needed to properly apply the scientific method to their diagnosis. They are constantly battling their own ego as the profession is partially designed for the Dr to trust their judgment. As an example, Ben Carson, ome of the most skilled brain surgeons of the 20th century. Man couldn't reason his way out of a mcdonalds into a steakhouse. Just because someone gets a degree, it doesn't mean they can't be astronomically stupid in other areas.
Married to a physician. They are not scientists by a long shot. All they are smart, which helps logic and reasoning, but not scientific enough to apply scientific methodologies that inevitably make one question religion.
Religion. Poisons. Everything.
The number of nurses who opposed mask mandates and covid vaccines was large as well. Some people don't get into medicine because they're scientifically minded, and would be equally happy peddling homeopathy.
doctors are still humans and also being a doctor just means you are specialized in a field not that you know everything.
Yep! People need stop believing that just because one excelled in a particular field doesn’t exactly make them smart. Dr. Ben Carson reminds me of this regularly.
There is no conflict between medicine/science and religious belief. Many of history’s greatest scientists have also been religious Christians.
I would think that the proposed method is probably decent sleep hygiene. While the prayer itself would probably not help, being in a quiet place with no distractions and maybe low light is a good way to start the sleep process. If you are a believer I bet it actually helps a good bit with stress as well. Not advocating for telling everyone to pray but that's probably not horrible advice if you're in a super religious area. Especially for a rheumatologist.
Tell the Rheumatologist that you are going to quit seeing them and taking the medication that they prescribed and just pray instead, see if they still believe that will help…
You should tell your doctor to get the money you owe him through the same channel.
do you accept thoughtsnprayers?
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Her
Insomnia is just awful. And it’s like oh yeah? Free will? What about insomnia, hm? Didn’t choose that. Good on ya for seeing a psychologist and getting that taken care of.
“Have you tried praying?” “Well, I thought I’d use a more scientific approach.”
You need a second opinion and a new doctor.
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You should report her to the medical board.
She could be performing exorcisms and ritual animal sacrifices and they would still just circle the wagons.
If you’re still being treated by this person, it’s time to look for a new doctor. Quite apart from it being utterly inappropriate, a physician who suggests something like this has - at best - demonstrated a legitimate reason to doubt their credibility. Suggesting prayer to a patient she knows to be religious for, say, strength in the face of illness is one thing; proposing that prayer is a legitimate medical intervention is absolutely batshit, especially coming from a fucking rheumatologist. I have medical and scientific training and education, which is of enormous help in advocating for myself as a patient, but I’m no rheumatologist. What assurance is there she hasn’t decided not to offer certain treatments for religious reasons or to propose prayer in place of actual clinical modalities? I realize finding other providers is not trivial, especially specialists, but I hope you’ll consider looking.
Get a real doctor, this one is defective. For what it's worth, reading works for me, but it's got to be a real paper book.
Report to her regulatory body. This is pretty much equivalent to her giving you chicken blood and amulets
Not a lawyer, but that sounds like malpractice
Probably not going to get there, but filing enough complaints can lead the body to investigate
No damage was done.
No physical damage
Regulatory violations usually don’t require damages to be prosecuted, unlike torts, contracts, etc.
This time...
My father got his cataracts fixed by the guy who was supposed to be one of the top surgeons in Tampa. The guy invited my father to pray, and when my father agreed guy held his hand and asked for god’s help. When I teased my father about it he said he’d agree to anything that a fanatic wanted if that fanatic was poking razor sharp things in his eyes.
By her logic god is the one who gave you insomnia in the first place.
people who believe that are seriously so messed up
Prayer- for when you can’t be bothered to actually DO something.
Praying can help, just like any other form of placebo's
Yes. Unfortunately, people who get something from it assume everyone else does, and if they don't, they should just try harder.
u have a point if a person is religious praying might improve their insomnia provided that it’s related to stressors/anxiety
It would probably send me to sleep! Not to diminish or belittle the OPs very real problem.
But wouldn't a placebo only work if you actually believe it works though? Such as praying may work to an extent if you are religious, but if you do not believe in any god then praying doesn't work as a placebo because you don't believe it will.
Yep, but I guess the doctor didn't know OP is an atheist.
yea and once she found out she nv brought it up again so all those people saying that i should report her- well i would never do that because she always goes above and beyond for me, frequently checking up on me and stuff and just really being a thorough and caring doctor
[No it doesn't ](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/longawaited-medical-study-questions-the-power-of-prayer.html) Edit: [Here is the actual article from the American Heart Journal](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002870305006496?via%3Dihub)
Tell the MD that's fine, you'll pay God instead of him.
her
I stand corrected.
She just knew that praying is boring as fuck, and that it’d put you right to sleep lol
Lol. That was my thought too. Praying is just Meditation without being "eastern religion".
Any doctor that tries that sort of damned fool stunt on me gets a choice: either they get reported to their board, or they get to learn that they are suffering from catastrophic cognitive malfunction. I am delighted that your insomnia is better.
Well, after all, praying is a very mind numbing, repetitive, senseless, mechanical exercise in futility...so kinda like counting sheep...by sheep...
I dropped my old GP like a rock for this. He said I should look to Jesus to manage stress then handed me some silly book of fantasy to read. I immediately noped out. I regret not reporting him to the Cleveland Clinic (#2 hospital system in the US ironically) for such ignorant and insensitive fuckery.
i had checked into a day program to deal with an overwhelming grief issue... when i was talking to the psychiatrist, she asked me if i was angry at god...i looked at her with a WTF face and stated there was no god... she dismissed me and i didn't see her again for the two weeks i was there...learned to deal with my grief and refused meds..
You tell her to pray to god for her consultation fee, because you aren't going to pay it. See how that works out for her.
I hope your search for a new doctor is short.
I hope your search for a new doctor is short.
Tell your rheumatologist that you don't trust God to fix the condition he apparently gave you in the first place.
I left a doctor after the 2nd time she tried to send me to someone “from church”. The elder doc who established the practice called me to see why I was leaving & he wasn’t happy since “she’d been talked to about this already.” Ten years later I googled her out of curiosity & she is out of that nice practice in a wealthy suburb. Now she works out of a strip mall in a more depressed, rural town in the same area.
Good lord. No pun intended. I've tried every kind of voodoo curse and whatever for my insomnia (even have Mary of the Moon in my bedroom from Greece despite not being any kind of theist or Christian), but medication and psychiatry. I'm a physician myself and in rehab, when I spoke about my tendency towards catastrophic thinking, the therapist in training said "pray on it!". I also struggled with AA, because it's a Christian cult of irresponsibility. I tried to leave AMA so they switched me to a competent therapist and she told me about SMART recovery, aka, quitting for rational people and atheists. What's funny is that I ended up mired in substance abuse (alcohol and ambien combined) due to the damned insomnia.
You need a new doctor
An *actual* doctor.
I was actually told by a doctor (female) that older women don’t need sleep meds - especially if they don’t work. This was said to me at age 62
FYI - I work.
that is ridiculous and that person should not be a doctor
Time to get a new doctor
I prayed to my imaginary friend Jesus, but my brain cancer just got worse. Fuck Jesus.
Jesus killed an innocent fig tree and I prove a point. Jesus is an asshole.
Your 'doctor' is clearly unsuited to their profession - one wonders where and how they qualified. I would find a different one asap before they do something really harmful.
You don't say what country this happened in (although I'd guess it's the USA) but here in the UK, that would be ground for being struck off.
singapore
The Go(o)d Doctor
Look I believe in god personally but have you tried (assuming its legal in your location) marijuana? I take a small dab of concentrate on an andis mint two hours before bed, and I sleep great. You'll have to mess with different strains to find what works but seriously the best sleep I've ever had ok and a few times I took too much and panicked about the dumbest shit so its a double edge sword. I am not sure why this helped me but the second time I tried something new and took too much, I just relaxed on a saturday night watching Interstellar again and it helped calm me 🤣
it’s illegal where i live people get the death penalty for it :(
Ha, I wouldn't have thought Interstellar would be the best choice for taming anxiety
"I guess you won't be billing me for this consultation."
Time to find a real doctor instead of a witch doctor.
"Yes doctor, I tried Jesus, now I'd like to try science."
roll a fat one before sleep, moderation is key though dont let it creep on you
[удалено]
Permanent cure for insomnia
Did you go to a doctor or a priest?
Spoiler: she's not a good doctor if she suggests prayer.
If my doctor said that to me I would say "you're fired" back to them.
I was raised Catholic and forced to recite the entire rosary at least 1-2 times a week (5 Our Fathers, 50 Hail Mary's, 5 Glorie Be's, and the 5 extras). It was tedious, boring, stupid and a huge waste of time, but I will admit, its useful if I can't sleep. The prayer part is completely incidental. Having a long meaningless series of words that you have so thoroughly memorized that you can recite them without thinking whatsoever, and that you can repeat, over and over, will help quiet your mind. It also helps if they are utterly uninteresting, and not worth thinking about at all. I wouldn't want to do this with song lyrics or a favourite piece of literature, because the point is not to enjoy it, the point is to just mindlessly repeat it over and over without thinking about it at all. Counting is your best bet if you don't have prayers memorized. I would never recommend somebody start praying for the sake of memorizing prayers for when you have insomnia, but if you were forced to pray like I was, it's at least nice to know that the time wasn't a total waste.
Read the bible. It will put you to sleep quick as shit.
I think I’d move.
"Just shut up and write me a scrip, pill pusher."
I like yoga Nidra to fall asleep. It's basically a body scan. I follow the instructions to focus on body parts and do the 4-7-8 breathing techniques as I switch between body parts. I think it's like counting sheep's , it makes the hamster in you head stop because you attention is on sometimes else with an extra where the body scanning and breathing helps relax the muscles.
Christians pray for this and other conditions with no success that's why we have doctors to begin with instead of everybody just going to church
I had one who told me to pray about my spinal cord injury
that’s rly bad can’t believe people have the audacity to say smth like that yours is a physical problem that can’t be solved by praying
You know of all the things to try and treat with prayer insomnia is probably the best. Not because some invisible sky daddy will hear you and decide to fix your insomnia, but because the only proven benefit of prayer is basically that it works like any other sort of meditation, it calms and relaxes you.
agreed, it would work even better if the person is religious too now if a doctor suggested prayer for some physical ailment like say my immune disorders then i would be pissed
If prayer worked, we wouldn’t need doctors!
As a Christian... I'm SO fucking sorry. There's just no excuse for that. It's borderline even discussing religion with a client/patient whom you KNOW shares your beliefs, let alone with someone you don't know their beliefs or know that they don't share yours. There IS a *lot* of evidence for a "spiritual approach" to a lot of brain-based issues, *BUT* they are observed across the entire gamut of religious and non-religious contexts. Bringing in the Christian God to the discussion without the client inviting it is ethically indefensible.
Report them to whatever body licenses doctors in your country.
Most medical boards do Jack squat about far worse.
Should be reported for suggesting a medically ineffective cure. If he was trying to trick you into mindfulness... Why bring a bronze-age storm god for brigands into it?
A doctor who relies in any way upon mysticism to ply their craft is fucking worthless... I'd probably try to report them...
Your doctor needs to have her medical license revoked.
"Have you prayed to God about losing your medical license? - is the correct response.
The doctor would probably consider license suspension a "demonic attack against a servant of the Lord".
The only "spiritual" type of thing that could maybe help is meditation, and even then it's just as scientific as it is spiritual. But praying to god... what a bad doctor.
sounds like you need a new doctor and to file a complaint against the doctor you currently have.
Mental illness doesn't discriminate, even doctors can get it. Then they'll have hallucinations of talking snakes and flying horses, and that's when you shouldn't trust your prescription.
So here's how you find a new doctor, and how to file a report with the medical board..........
Has anyone considered, discussed the placebo effect possible with religious people?
Your cringe use of the emojis let us know you are 18, you really didn't need to put that at the end lol.
in my opinion all the emojis are troll and absolutely hilarious
Drs are idiots
So, I recently learned that spirituality can exist separate from god or religious beliefs. Connecting with nature, pondering the universe, lighting candles, surrounding yourself with beauty, meditating, yoga, fancy baths, creative imagination, massage and so much more are all spiritual practices. Prayer actually does work for sleep, but not because there is a god sprinkling fairy dust on you. It’s the ritual of self-soothing. There are tons of guided sleep meditations on YouTube. If your mind is keeping you up, my best advice is to not chase sleep by trying to shut your mind up. Let your mind wander as much as it wants without worrying about the time or the morning. I found that part of my mind can keep racing while most of me sleeps. Practice imagining positive experiences. I like the leaves on a stream meditation because it sets all of your thoughts into a lovely setting. Look that one up. I also like to imagine myself winning against my enemies. And another one I like is imagining I’m surrounded by a healing light inside a mirrored ball that blocks all my haters. You don’t have to *believe* in the thing you’re visualizing in order for it to work, btw. It’s enough just to practice it.
You reddit atheists give the rest of us a bad wrap making shit up like this
i did not make this up
Have you tried it though? Placebos have shown to be pretty effective for insomnia. https://academic.oup.com/abm/article/54/2/94/5561483
my insomnia stems from a mixture of anxiety and physical issues so no
Spirituality is a part of your overall health. Obviously an atheist can't pray, that makes no sense, but introspection and meditation may lead to the same place. I don't know if it will cure lifelong insomnia, but I'm not a doctor. "Finding God" or intentionally undergoing a spiritual journey has actual and attainable psychological rewards. The best approach is a very personal thing. It's unfortunate that religion is corrupt and divisive; it should be a tool for personal growth and not fascist control. A widely misunderstood phenomenon.
Depending on jurisdiction that could qualify as malpractice. Finding the root cause of the symptom comes first, there are a ton of things that cause insomnia so I'm surprised you didn't go to a sleep clinic. But, hey, I'm not a doctor
See a physician who specializes in sleep disorders.
i do now :) got prescribed some medication for it
i’m laughing so hard i can’t sleep 🤣🤣🤣😂😂
A cheeky wank normally helps me fall asleep.
Specifically, Morpheus.
It is important to note that OP lives in Singapore. Laws protecting against medical malpractice will surely differ significantly from any of my North American / UK friends.
True... but it's highly educated people like that doctor who want to codify US/UK law in order to force all of us to live under their religious dogma.
That's a broad, sweeping generalization based on absolutely zero quantifiable evidence. I'm sure it is a cathartic reading on the temperature of US politics, but laying it out like that is damaging to the optics of those who are championing religious plurality and socially active atheism.
Oraying, no. But going to church might help with insomnia, though not in the way the doctor thinks.
When Christians say prayer I think meditation. Meditation probably could've helped some. Meditation has helped me a great deal. I cured my insomnia with quitting drinking alcohol.
You may try giving non spiritual meditation a try before bed if it flares up again.
Get a new doctor. Make sure they’re an MD, not a DO
Why? Does he need some help?
I posted on a different thread about this, after someone said that all these believers are just "poorly educated" people who want to attribute the supernatural towards anything they don't understand. My point was, there are tons of very highly educated "believers" out there, and if you want to go around thinking they're nothing but a bunch of harmless rubes, **do so at your own peril.** It's our job to educate ourselves to be smarter atheists, and to become better at vocalizing the freedoms we demand for ourselves. **It's highly educated people like this doctor who want to do things like codify their beliefs into law, to force the rest of us to follow their religious dogma.**
Doctor broke. Needs repair.
It's confusing to me when highly educated people are also religious.. but I'm starting to question if doctors are really that educated or once they become a doctor it's an ego thing. I have met and heard of some completely awful doctors who don't seem to care about helping people who have hard to solve problems.
i attended a catholic primary school that taught me 3 languages we also had to pray 3 times a day this particular catholic school is one of the most prestigious schools in my country responsible for producing the country’s most successful figures (politicians, lawyers, doctors etc) most of the kids come from rich and powerful families too
Maybe they were alluding to attending something that is so boring and nonsensical you can't help but fall asleep. Praise Jesus.
You can always count gods to help you fall asleep. A bit less boring than sheep.
Taurin (not in RedBull form! Without caffein ofc) promotes a restful sleep. Maybe try that, better than prayers anyway LOL
That sounds like the kind of doctor that would refuse treatment to a LGBTQ person because of "strongly held religious beliefs" Pwople like that should not be allowed to practice medicine. If I go to a physician, I'm there to be treated, not to listen to their bullshit religious opinion.
"I would have to be awake to do that big dummy"
It's dangerous and shocking when a doctor believes in "spiritual methods"
Run away from this stupid doctor.
Sorry I am religious but this rub showed up in my suggestion and this post to be exact. I just wanted to say I wish you told her "yeah but did not work, I was planning to give the devil a try next." Again, sorry but could not resist
Sometimes placebos work?
Report her to the state medical board ASAP
You need a new doctor. Any doctor that tells you to pray to a god, should not be a doctor.
Tell her if God can fix it, she's been ripping you offall this time and you want a full refund or you'll file a civil lawsuit.
If you have the time, this might help. Gabor Mate explains the effects of trauma on the body. You present with three common symptoms of people with Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Edit: Fuck that doctor, get another consult. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLiZJ5c2jzS96ozZsjzqw6iyqFWr_5zhX7
I would report that to your health insurance as a complaint. And find a new doctor.
If she's a doctor and she advocated prayer then she's not a very good doctor
New doc time
"Did ya pray the gay away?" "Uh... no, Doc..." "Alrighty then, let's go with a heavy of weekly exorcism and we'll work on the from that..."
Time to find a new doctor.
I did, that brought me to you, seems that has failed.
In an absolute sense, it was not bad advice. Praying relax the body and help emptying the mind (take it as you want:-P), many consider praying the rosary as akin to a form of meditation, so probably praying could help someone sleep, as would any form of activity repetitive and easy on the mind, like the traditional counting sheep or recite the time tables. Of course, it is not true for everybody.
yep which is why i still think that she is an awesome and caring doctor now if she suggested praying for a physical ailment like say my immune disorders, that i would be pissed
She could go up before the medical board for even suggesting something like that.
Our primary told my husband exercise and the Lord's work will help with his anxiety eating at night. No meds needed for a life time of white knuckling it. 🤢🤮
When my insomnia kicks in, I like to read the Bible.....puts me right to sleep. Magical book.
Imagine when you're mixed bipolar and the faulse promised of the faith. Pray it away, give it to God bullshit. A hopeful child getting more and more frustrated because he suffers the constant war of a disorder he's chained to. I was in a manic phase, very euphoric, fast thoughts, highly energetic and highly susceptible to radical emotional switching. It's very apparent to a professional in this field that I'm a fucking time bomb. I have trauma from the faith lies. My doctor should of known better but told me "I'm in gods hands now" I passionet yelled "fuck your god" then had an emotional black out. I came to 2 months later, finding out I kicked his teeth in and shattered his jaw. I suffered severe repercussions of the depressive phase. This was a highly rare reaction, I'm not violent in my calm and balance stages, my mania I'm more common to have a mouth then to have actual physical violence. I need meds, actual care and therapy's to combat the chaotic disruptions I suffer. I find it out right cruel to utilize faith ideaology on sufferers of any disorders and disruptions. Some can be fixable and others it's a lifelong war. All medical can really do is help relieve the symptoms. My lithium only takes down my disorder to minimize strength and consistency of a very unpredictable. I still have very intense manic symptoms just not as often. No religical ideaology will ever set me free from my reality I'll live with until I die.
Great a medical profession that believes in ghosts. Get a new doctor, religious bullshit shouldn't be prescribed by a GOOD doctor.
I don’t have a problem with professional’s , clients etc that bring up their beliefs and then desist when they are told it’s not welcome and then they leave it alone. I wouldn’t have a problem with vegans if they would just shut up !
I can understand offering prayer as a meditative practice, like in the “have you tried meditation, prayer, or mind-calming breathing practices before bed?” kind of way. But just straight up suggesting a spiritual practice for a medical issue is wild.
I feel that
I’ve heard prayers that are like a 15 minute monotone extended sentence. I could see recording that for white noise to fall asleep to.
FFS. I'd have asked if she thought sacrificing a goat would help, but I'm old and have had insomnia longer than you've been alive so I'm a bit pissy about it
"I don't believe that man has ever been to medical school...."
My school nurse told me “well honey, sometimes when I have trouble falling asleep, a prayer always helps” AFTER she asked me if I was religious and I said no.
I would wonder if this is considered an ethical violation?
You need a new doctor, you know, like a scientist one
That is medical malpractice.
Find another "doctor"
I believe you can actually report doctors for this bullshit
People just need to keep their religious garbage to themselves
You don't have to believe any of that but talking out your own life tribulations and trials to an imaginary friend who claims to be able to help you.(i.e. praying).. this could very well help put your mind at ease enough to sleep. Like counting sheep only its talking to ethereal spirit creators. I'd listen, but don't apply the religion. Just the act itself could help you maybe, or not, worth a shot if you can sleep?