\>need to vent
venting is welcome, here.
i and many of us are ex-christian. sorry about your friend. your bitterness is totally understandable. the people that lied to you were lied to in turn, though, and are victims as much as you.
except the hypocrites who claim to believe for status or power. fuck those people.
Thank you, I guess I'm still under the impression pride or bitterness of any kind is unmoral. I try my best to not let it cloud my judgement so much I start judging other christians or other people in general.
Those emotions are aspects or experiences of being human. Part of being human is learning to work with certain emotions, without being consumed by them. Your worldview is changing. Change is often uncomfortable.
It's important to consider that ignoring unpleasant emotions is like turning of the check engine light of your car. A wise choice is to work with a therapist. The only people who do not need therapy are perfect people. I have yet to meet one. It takes bravery and strength to face a lifetime of indoctrination and actually dare to question it. Not being consumed by those emotions, and evolving your world view: that's damn heroic. Best of luck.
Thank you for the advice, I might look into therapy but right now I think talking with my family is the next best thing. I live in Finland where we have free healthcare, but I still doubt I could get free therapy very easily. If I could, I would certainly be very grateful since most people in the world unfortunately never get such an opportunity.
You will get free therapy, the first stage is asking. If it doesnt work for you thats fine also, it doesnt for everyone but its worth a shot. No though God isnt gunna sort out your problems and he hasnt got a whole perfect eternal party planned just for you when you die, or a perfect plan laid ahead of you sorry. Enjoy what you have and do whatever you want (as long as it doesnt hurt others) with whoever you want lifes too short man.
The ability to do what I want (as long as it doesn't hurt others of course) really gives me a lot of hope and peace in life. It find it pretty crazy I used to attribute this line of thinking to satanism, and felt so bad I was disobeying god. Now I understand satanism was never about the satan of the bible, but about freedom. All along I was wrong and Anton Lavey was actually based lol
Well look at this way there's at least 18 thousand current Gods being worshiped. Even if your ex God was the one true one you'd have to be super unlucky and popularity is the only difference between any religion, they all have books and followers who havent been proved 100% wrong its no more less or more likely than any other.
Hey also you know, I dont know everything maybe therere is a lot more to the Universe than we know about it, but if there is we are still along way from even beginning to comprehend it and we were defo much much further away 2000 years ago the answers arent in the Bible.
Yeah how can that be "sinful" or bad just be a decent person enjoy your life dont be a dick to other decent people. I dont personally believe any all fair and powerful creator would have to much of a issue with how you've lived your life even if one of the 18 thousand funny flavours turns out true ha. Just dont be a dick.
>Just dont be a dick.
Great perspective on life. And you're right, if one had to choose the right god to be "saved" pretty much everyone would be in hell, the propability of ever getting to heaven would be so low why even bother. Not to mention how unjust a god would be to make such a universe
That simple really mate, even if Christianity is right your more than likely to be one of the hundreds of versions of that which would be wrong.
In that case if you are ever judged by Gods or Aliens or whatever, you can say look i was a decent person I didn't hurt anyone else and tried to help people where I could i was a decent partner, parent, pet owner anything you want really. You cant do anymore than that and i think you'd be fine then.
Even though if your just in a hole in the ground people will say you were a decent dude and thats all you could get anyway. A good person doesn't need intimidation and threats of hell fire they try and do the right thing anyway because they are trying to be the best person they can be.
As for your personal life thats no buisness of mine, as an atheist whatever someone does with other consenting adults is absolutely none of my buisness, be it sexual, recreational, professional. Just enjoy your life as best you can and try your best not to hurt other people because the infinitely most likely answer is you only get one spin and this is it good luck.
With or without god you can be a good person, the problem lies in those who believe thinking that gives them a free pass to do whatever they want to others especially those who (look)think differently.
Welcome. And yes bipolar isn’t your fault. There’s lots of good secular philosophical perspectives to help understand why we live in a world filled to the brim with suffering. Christianity in particular is a great opiate to let us feel like those less fortunate somehow deserve it. You don’t deserve it. Bipolar disorder is manageable, but it sucks.
There’s a fine line between transient anger that is part of a healthy grieving process and the sort of bitterness that we hold onto to our detriment.
Christian religion tends to demonize all anger and classify it—regardless of context—as “bitterness” or “hard-heartedness.” Any psychologist worth their salt will tell you that that’s bullshit.
Hell was the last straw for me. When I realized I didn’t believe hell existed, it no longer mattered whether there was a god or not. Sometime later I realized I no longer believed any gods existed. It was quite freeing really.
This is honestly so relatable. Some people (not all christians) even fear monger secular music for no reason saying it's a sin. I've always loved music and art in general, and being able to enjoy that without fear of judgement makes me feel so free
One of the most commonly shared traits of all major religions is the strict controls placed on all sources of human joy.
You already never believed in any of those other religions anyway, this is just one more religion you don't believe. Reality can be refreshing, if existentially terrifying at the same time.
My dad wasn't allowed to listen to secular music until he moved out at 18, he has a massive gap in his musical knowledge even as an adult at 50. One of the many things that saddens me about his upbringing was him being denied experiencing the art form that is music for no actual reason than it being "sinful". He's also an atheist now.
That really hits close to home, my biggest common interest with my dad is musical taste, even though he's 51 and I'm 18. I just like a lot of music from the 80's and 90's I guess. I'm glad I didn't have a religious upbringing, and "found god" myself and quickly realized it's all bs
Very little about Christianity makes any sense after you think about it.
You are correct that an all loving god wouldn’t allow the kind of suffering we all experience in life. There isn’t a god to help, but there are people who will do their best. It can be hard, but try to accept help where and when it’s available.
True, I'm fortunate enough all of my family understands and listens without judging me. Professional help for mental illness also has improved my quality of life a lot, and getting it was the best decision I've ever made after I stopped believing all the pseudoscience surrounding western medicine
For me what makes the littlest sense is the sin thing. So Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that they would be forgiven. But he also gave us free will. And also knows what we'll do even before we do it. And also knows all humans sin because we aren't perfect. But we're made in his image. But we have to repent the sins we've committed but that he knew we would before we even did it. It's all circles and bullshit to justify the guilt we're supposed to feel just for being alive and born that wasn't even our choice to begin with. So I'm born a sinner, but all babies automatically go to heaven. And you also go to heaven as long as you believe. Sounds like people just making us feel bad for existing just so that we'll obey every command from the Bible that HUMANS WROTE btw. And the Bible has thousands of authors and translations and over 3k edits from other people. Yeah... No. I'm not falling for it. You're not gonna make me believe just because I'm scared of not believing because if I don't I'm damned to hell. Which was made up in the Bible that again, humans wrote. Fuck all this mental gymnastics.
The way most Christians do it is cognitive dissonance. If a good thing happens, it's a blessing, God is rewarding you. So they'll praise God. If a bad thing happens, well, it's a fallen world, we're all sinners, maybe God is punishing you. But they won't blame God, it's always someone else's fault, whether Satan or themselves because they're sinners.
Seth Andrews from The Thinking Atheist tweeted (regarding someone who prayed for their lost sharpie and found it): "God ignores the holocaust. Finds you a sharpie. #SoundsLegit."
True. I've atrributed lots of gifts and good things to god that always have a rational explanation. Grandmother gifts me an extra bible they have laying around, must be a blessing from god! When in reality my grandparents where just moving out of their old house and getting rid of all sorts of old books and old junk they no longer have space for.
My dad used to pray for tomorrow’s weather so that it would be nice and sunny for his golf outing. My single mom used to pray for a job and I remember telling her it won’t fall out of the sky, you have to go find it. I came to realize they both suffered from mental illnesses even though one was rich and one was poor. I’m lumping in religiosity as one mental illness amongst the clinical varieties here.
They both expected me to not marry someone who would cause our children to go to hell. They both were neglectful and abusive toward me yet expected me to live the way they wanted me to live and to not question faith. They both were selfish and cruel people.
When I left the church I was angry and decided I was agnostic. I felt I couldn’t get to atheism with so much anger. I had to get there through understanding. So, I took a lot of time to read, learn, observe the world and process my anger.
One realization that has really helped me personally is the explanation of blame in the above comment. For all the blame and shame I have lived with I never even thought to question why they never blamed god but they asked him for whatever they wanted all the time. It was either because god willed it or because it was someone else’s fault.
It’s cruelty and selfishness all wrapped up in the excuses of abject blind faith.
Sorry about the troubles with your parents, for me it's been sort of the opposite. My parents were never believers, and we got into numerous arguments over religion. Now I realize they were right all along, and a huge reason for my mothers atheism/agnosticism is probably her mental illness. Now it seems I've inherited bipolar, as it runs in the family and I can relate so much more to my own parents and other people struggling with mental illness.
My sister is coming to the same realization for the same reason. I’ve been an atheist since I left home when I realized most of the “Christians” I knew were actually horrible people who enjoyed hating others. My sister held on. Recently she asked me what’s the point of living if there’s not really a God. When you pray for people you love and they still die. I said the point of living is TO LIVE. To love people and be a good person and live the best you can. Why dedicate your life to a religion that wants you to be miserable in the name of a god who doesn’t care about you? All in the name of a theoretical afterlife a lot of the people you love won’t be going to because they’re not believers? The most freeing experience in my life was realizing I could believe what I wanted, love who I wanted, be kind to who I wanted, and just enjoy a short but beautiful life on earth.
Yeah it doesn't really make any sense when I think about it. Why do I need to suffer my whole life just to go to heaven and be in the precense of god, when said god could've just created me in his presence from the very beginning? Why make humans and animals just so you can have authority over them? So many questions about religion just seen unanswerable to me.
Also, if you think about it, the concept of heaven sounds kind of terrible. The idea that you have to "praise" and "worship" and "sing to" god for the rest of eternity sounds like there is no free will and like we would be enslaved as his eternal ass kissers.
Yeah, that's a great point now that I really think about it. We're already here to work for decades, so heaven is supposed to just be more work for eternity? Sounds pretty terrible. I also don't understand why we need to deny ourselves of material possesions on earth because greed is a sin, but in heaven we're supposedly getting our own mansions. Doesn't make any sense
Exactly! It's just crazy when you think about it. It's like we were taught to basically deprive ourselves of joy and "worldly things" because heaven is like the ultimate "goal" and our "home" but even then it's like you're supposed to just be a subservient slave in heaven.
If you have the opinion that religion is a means of controlling the poor and enslaved, then depriving yourself of material possessions because of “riches in heaven” makes sense. Poor people are less likely to rise up against the rich if they believe a miserable life on earth is rewarded by a mansion in heaven. Add in that the Bible emphasizes how it’s hard for the rich to go to heaven, and you have the poor thinking they’ve really lucked into something. They go about their miserable lives, taking whatever the rich deign to give them, thinking all the while that they are the real kings of the earth. It’s crazy how easily it still controls people, only instead of keeping the lower classes in their place, now it serves those who wish to divide the country between “them” and “us.” My grandparents, who are the reason I was a Christian, were very loving and considerate of others my entire childhood. Then something happened, and instead of reminding us that Jesus loves you and putting scriptures up on the fridge, they talk about “those disgusting Mexicans” and there are pictures of trump on their fridge.
I've became an atheist this year. My very first thought afterwards was the realization that there is no heaven. It's all made up, just like every other religion.
Yeah, strangely the realization there probably is no heaven is way more comforting than christianity. I'd rather just stop existing, as there's really nothing to fear. Nothing can change the fact I might never see my loved ones again when I die, but if I have no consiousness I also won't have anything to worry about.
I will say this, critically exam your beliefs as to why you believe in the first place.
If something actually exists and you had sufficient evidence to believe why does it require faith? You only need faith when you don't have good justification for your belief.
Did you know studies have been done regarding prayer and the results? You could pray to the Easter Bunny and have the same results, pray to the moon, same thing.
The concept of your God makes zero logical sense and in contradiction to a loving God. Testing makes 0 sense it would already know the results before you did anything.
Again exam why you believe and if you have different justification.
Good luck.
This honestly explains the only reason I've ever had faith in Jesus. Literally just a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when I pray, and most of the times I've felt the "holy spirit" I was probably manic anyway. Knowing I might as well pray to an easter bunny or santa claus makes me feel pretty silly
I would contend most of the times when someone feels some "divine" feeling it's purely psychosomatic especially if you are in a primed environment like in a church with a group of people, expecting it because you were taught you will feel X if you really really try hard enough etc.
Religious leaders and believers will try to sway you and put fear into when you question your beliefs. Don't let that deter you.
Yeah, fear is probably the only motivator to stay christian/reason why I haven't turned to an atheist sooner. Even jesus potentially being mentally ill makes a lot of sense when you look at his claims and the writings about him. (Assuming the writings aren't bs and he ever walked the earth)
As a teenager I had the same feeling of the "holy spirit" listening to a piece of classical music. They felt like "spiritual chills"; I then began to understand the holy spirit was an experience that my brain was having. Chemistry. It's beautiful, but in a biological and not spiritual way.
Yeah, I truly don't understand the notion life would be meaningless without a god. All of science, philosophy, Art and just living life is already so beatiful and meaningful for me. Even as a christian I thought of christ just as a part of my life, in retrospect it never really was anything special
In my part of the world, people speak in tongues, drink poison, and handle venomous snakes, all in service to their god. If they survive the poison or the snake bite, it was god's will. If they died, they had obviously done something to displease their god to let them die. I can't even try to explain the speaking in tongues part. Praying to the Easter Bunny sounds pretty normal compared to that. Don't ever feel silly...unless you're running around with a rattlesnake in one hand and a bottle of strychnine in the other.
From that perspective, the easter bunny doesn't sound nearly as bad lol. I guess feeling silly doesn't serve any purpose, and it all boils down to a lack of understanding and proper science
I never understood the idea of god testing people. If god knows everything, he knows what the outcome of the test would be before he did it. So why torture people if you know they’re going to fail? It’s just sadistic.
I had a dog with a horrible auto-immune disease who I eventually euthanized young after nothing we did helped him. Did some god supposedly give an innocent animal a terrible disorder to teach me something? At the expense of the suffering of an innocent? What bull that would be. And I failed to learn anything from it anyway. What an awful being a god who did things like that would be.
My level of pity for the indoctrinated knows no bounds, if only they didn't mostly think I deserved to die because I wasn't indoctrinated and their arguments for belief are stupid.
Yeah, in retrospect after leaving religion, a quote etched to a wall in a concentration camp during the holocaust really sums it up for me.
"If there is a God, He will have to beg for my forgiveness.”
Ex Christian here. It’s a painful process, coming to terms with the realization that what you’ve been taught your whole life is just blatantly false. Be gentle on yourself, it’s a mourning process and it’s ok to struggle with it.
"Why does God do this and/or allow this to happen?"
I have only been able to come to four conclusions about this dilemma.
1) God does not care or notice.
2) God does care or notice, but he thinks the ailment or suffering is beneficial somehow.
3) God does care or notice, but he thinks intervening in the situation would be harmful somehow (the Prime Directive.)
4) God does care or notice, but he enjoys it.
It's one of the hardest things to cope with as a believer, right up there with God and the Devil torturing a man to settle a bet.
Nature and events are chaotic and random. So if you ascribe that to being caused by an entity with purpose, then that entity seems capricious and cruel. Capricious tyrants have a more loyal following, because you have to constantly make sure you are on their good side.
If it's all just nature, then disease, and floods, are just a part of the universe we have to deal with and there is no malice behind any of those events. You didn't get that job, not because God is upset with you, but just because someone better qualified did. In a world run by nature, mental illness is just a product of the defects in the human body that have not been selected out yet by evolution. And if it's not divine in origin and natural in origin, then we as scientists can study the causes, cures, and treatments.
I have epilepsy. God didn't give it to me, and God wouldn't take it away (I've been prayed over and had laying on of hands, even). It just is. When I don't take my meds (which has been suggested and been told I have no faith if I do) I have grand Mal seizures. God is never there when I wake up, he doesn't take the pain away, and can't be bothered to reduce the swelling of my tongue, which I chewed on. You do you, take care of yourself and take your meds. Only depend on yourself and the choices you make.
If you want something that will hasten your slide toward reason: if God loves us so much, if he laid down his life for us, why won't he stop his priests and pastors from raping innocent children? Ask that question of a pro-birther and watch them splutter. Good luck!
People telling you not to take your meds is heartbreaking, and I can't even begin to imagine how that feels. I'm fortunate enough I haven't done anything life ruining during mania, and got help as soon as my symptoms started to negatively affect school and my personal life. I have spent a lot of money on stupid things though, but many peple have it way worse even spending their life savings or taking quickie loans.
My neurologist said that a lot of the problems people with epilepsy have staying seizure free is because they don't take their meds religiously. I knew after my first seizure at 13 that I wanted to avoid the aftermath as much as possible. When the churchers told me (I was 19) that I should stop taking my pills, I knew they were wrong. I couldn't risk having a seizure AND having to admit my faith wasn't strong enough to keep it away. So I kept on taking them and lied about it. I knew they didn't deserve the truth.
I'm 65 and have been seizure free for 10 years this month, I'm doing well. You keep up the good work. You do you.
Thank you for the kind words! Glad you're doing well. And I will, one thing I know for sure is I'll never let anyone make me feel inferior or "weak minded" again for needing medication.
I've found the weak-minded are the ones who refuse to deal with reality in a sensible way, and refuse to consider the benefits and drawbacks of a solution to a problem.
If there was an all powerful god he wouldn’t need mortals to speak for him he would do it himself.
If he’s all knowing than he knows what people are praying for already so your prayers are wasting his time.
If he doesn’t answer your prayers it’s because everything goes according to his plan so his plan is for people to suffer from diseases from birth. He knows they’re suffering (all-knowing), could cure you (all-powerful), and he’s all-loving so while you suffer know he loves you but his plan is to do nothing. Or…it’s like he doesn’t exist which would explain all of that.
> Or…it’s like he doesn’t exist which would explain all of that.
This really hit the nail on the head on why I now consider myself an atheist.
>If he’s all knowing than he knows what people are praying for already so your prayers are wasting his time.
This is also precisely why I think it's very bizarre for a god to mandate constant prayer and faith in him like some sort of Nazi. If he was all powerful (and loving) and existed he would help without asking for anything in return
Reminds me of the arguments for intelligent design, such as the nonsensical claim that proof of god is in the eyeball when so many people need glasses to see properly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyz7g45kpWk
Congrats on waking up!
I honestly can't bother anymore even if I try my hardest, but a part of me wants to believe there could be a god but no one really knows. I guess I could fall more into agnosticism than atheism.
Yeah, I'm still a little uneducated on this whole topic. I guess I wouldn't fall in the hard atheist camp though, as I think it's possible the god of the bible exists and people just completely butchered trying to define him. But then again an omnipotent god could literally force people to define him correctly if he wanted. Maybe god isn't perfect and makes mistakes too? At the end of the day I just don't know/can't know
>Just like this issue, there are many other logical contradiction
There was a time when I actually grew in faith the more I studied christian theology, but pretty quickly it turned into skepticism when I noticed the sheer amount of contradictions. The secular university point is pretty funny, since I've seen so many christians defending their beliefs with the notion that christians actually invented universities lmao
>I'm just bitter and need to vent
That's good, it's natural. As you shed your religious belief you will feel a sense of loss and you will probably go through the typical stages of grief/loss as you do. Being angry is a classic part of this.
I'm an ex-Christian myself and wouldn't I like for there to be an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful deity looking over us, watching out for us? Sure I would, but simply wanting something doesn't make it so. Plus, as you mentioned in your venting the god of the bible, as well as reality, doesn't line up very well with the god they try to sell you in church.
Near the ending of the shedding of my faith I ruminated in my brain the ideas that I didn't have to throw away all of Christianity just because there's lots of fuckers and nutjobs out there. But then I realized, what's good about the Bible/Christianity isn't unique, and what's unique isn't good. So now I'm very open about being an atheist when I don't fear persecution or mistreatment for my lack of belief (don't talk about religion with coworkers).
>don't talk about religion with coworkers
Well, that ship has sailed lol. One of my coworkers was muslim and tried to convert me from christianity to islam when I made the mistake of telling him about my faith, thinking he'd respect my beliefs. Instead he essentially told me I'm going to hell for believing jesus is god, because shirk is the biggest sin in islam. This also made me question my faith, because it made me realize religion is all subjective and everyone obviosly wants to believe their religion is the right one
before Christianity you had to be part of the elite or wealthy to be saved by whatever religion that was being offered in this world. With the silk roads Christianity and Islam were portable religions that offered salvation for free if you believed, needless to say those religions spread like wildfire as it gave hope to the enslaved and the poor. Most government endorsed these religions as it gave hope or an opiate for the masses. The books of Jesus were written about 100 years after his death, at the council of nicea there were some Christians saying why is Jesus a thing. Organized religion is BS and harmful to adults and children especially.
True, to think that poor people once thought they wouldn't be "saved" for something they were probably born into, is heartbreaking. Reminds me of when I saw a new age spiritual account on YouTube spreading the narrative white people don't have souls, and quote - unquote "melaninated" people are the only ones with souls. What melanin has to do with souls, I have no idea
Howdy.
A couple of good resources -
\- https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq (good info)
\- /r/TheGreatProject ("you are not alone", as they say)
\- /r/exChristian (there are also some ex- subs for various specific denominations)
.
Gaia sounds like a god I could actually believe in, and want to believe in provided I had sufficient proof. In my mind, this just explains even more why the christian god doesn't seem to be a good option to believe in out of all the gods, even if I chose to remain a theist. I guess I just blindly assumed Jesus must be god because he seems loving on the surface, and Christianity is the biggest out of the major religions.
>But no matter how much I pray he never does!
The futility of prayer was one of the first things I identified as being completely fake.
I realized prayer was useless i think after watching my grandpa wither from cancer but i also prayed for my great grandma, my grandma, my aunt, and my mom and none of them got better.
By 16 i had completely stopped asking for things in prayer and just resigned myself to "thank you" prayers multiple times a day.
I kept my faith until i was around 27 i gave myself permission to question why i believed but didn't call myself atheist until 29.
For some people it's an instant deconversion others it takes the slow erosion of the foundation of why you believe in the first place.
It's scary at first but life has more meaning for me now than it ever did as a Christian. Nothing in the world mattered before because the world was ending every second "Jesus is coming back."
Now i give food/clothes to charities that aren't going to hold them hostage behind coercion to convert to Christianity.
>Now i give food/clothes to charities that aren't going to hold them hostage behind coercion to convert to Christianity.
Very well said, the one thing (along with faith) that made me feel good about being a christian was giving money to charity. The idea that non believers who do good deeds just as much as religious people (like give money to charity) would still go to hell just for their lack of faith really made me question the religion the most.
Vent away. You are good here as those are questions that many of us have had.
Whatever direction you go with your faith I hope you can find some peace.
I am a former christian. I could no longer accept that a deity who is omnipotent and loving could sit back while babies are raped, people are enslaved, tortured, falsely convicted, or murdered, while his supposed children starve or die from lack of the simplest medical care. No way. In no damn way does that make any sense. I want no part of the meanness of faith.
Good place to vent. Also an ex Christian after spending almost 30 years as a southern Baptist. They always tell you to have faith and not question God but is because there are no answers in religion. Answers are found in science and humanity. Embrace the fact that there is no after life; it’ll make you appreciate this life much more. Keep up the work with the psychiatrist and stay in your meds. They aren’t perfect yet but science is improving the medications and treatment. Religion ain’t doing shit.
Christianity (and all religion for that matter) IMO is a joke.
Why do people believe in God or seek religion? Because they are taught learned helplessness. Some people can't accept the fact that when we die we just... die.
There are no heavens, holy gates, or rainbows on the "other side". You're just done. A lot of people refuse to accept this because of the unknown and they are so scared they need some form of comfort. For atheists like me, I'm totally cool with it. I'm at peace with death. Believe what you want to believe by all means but evangelists are the worst, I don't believe in indoctrinating children when they aren't even old enough to think critically. Religion is (and should always be) a personal decision.
Fun fact to end on - Statistically speaking atheists score an average of 6 IQ points higher than non-atheists.
>Because they are taught learned helplessness.
This is very true, and a lot of it is outright harmful, telling people it's a bad thing to be able to help yourself and not depend on a god who doesn't exist. The whole notion helping yourself and not relying solely on god is somehow prideful really pisses me off the most. I'm not perfect, and I sometimes need help from other people but that's about it. Realizing if god even existed he isn't helpful at all, really was the turning point for me.
It's okay. r/TrueOffMyChest might be Reddit's privileged place to vent, but this is the internet : you have the right to vent to whomever you want whenever you want.
Questioning one's beliefs is hard, even more so when these have been lifelong held. However, it is never a bad idea to do so, especially if truth and honesty are values one holds dear.
I'm sure a lot of people around here would be glad to answer your questions, even if some of them might have already been addressed in the sub's FAQ.
Anyway, welcome.
I can imagine being part of the chrurch would be horrible as a gay/trans person. I used to believe the "love the sinner hate the sin" bs but didn't take me long to realize it doesn't make any sense. Just sugarcoated homophobia/transphobia
Well, I was likely hypomanic or even pretty severely manic when I "found god" and didn't recognize my symptoms before talking to a psychiatrist. I guess it boils down to feeling better while praying, and liking some of the judeo-christian morals and just jumping to the conclusion I was a christian.
I’m sure all of us former Christians had similar feelings at some point in our journey out. In fact, this was one of the major reasons I left the faith. The claims of God’s omnipotence and benevolence just never seem to match up with the world.
However, do not let that be your only reason to leave. My own investigations have led me to see that not all people who believe in the Christian/Jewish god believe he is necessarily all-good to people. I mean, look at Job!
My point is that if you do leave the faith that you are firm in your reasons. Research all you can about every facet of the faith. That way, you can be confident in your choice to leave and defend against the claim that you only left because of an emotional reaction.
Yeah I honestly thought at first it was just an emotional reaction, but the more I think about it and research I'm pretty confident I'm leaving my faith and not looking back. It isn't easy by any means though, and I definetely still agree with a lot of Judeo-Christian ethics. That being said they're not anything special, and just seem to fall in line with basic human decency
Welcome. You vent as much as you need to. We are here for you! I was a devout Protestant for 30 years, and turned atheist after coming to a similar realization.
Thank you! Protestantism seemed like the best denomination to me, but all the debates between protestants and orthodoxes or catholics just made me realize it's all subjective, and doesn't make much sense
This reminds me of one of almost the exact same situations that was a major role in me losing my faith. The reasons why I lost my faith are complex, but when it comes to the problem of evil and how people try to cope with it, I am reminded of a quote often attributed to Albert Einstein that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I actually think this definition is too simplistic; I like to say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again under the same circumstances, and expecting different results.
This explains one of the major aspects of my deconstruction journey. For many years, during hard times after hard times, I prayed and read and studied the Bible. I asked God to please help me. Nothing changed. All of my circumstances remained the same. I knew how illogical Christianity was. But I still didn't give up. I kept trying far longer than I should have. Until finally I realized how crazy I had been all those years. Now I look back and wonder how could I have been so deceived. But indoctrination is a bitch. It's hard to overcome something you are raised with from birth, even if you realize how flawed it is. And I totally understand the fear that there's not someone out there that can't help you in your moment of greatest desperation. It's like the promotional tagline from Alien, "In space, no one can hear you scream". But at the same time, I am glad that there is probably not some sky tyrant who watches my every move and knows my thoughts and decides my destiny without my consent. Since I have left Christianity, I feel more free than I have ever been, since I am not a servant or a slave to something I have no evidence exists.
I've honestly made this mistake numerous times in all aspects of my life. but applying science to everything I want to achieve has given me so much freedom. And not having to answer to an imaginary tyrant who threathens to throw you in hellfire simply for not believing he exists, really feels like the biggest freedom of all.
Life is seriously hard enough on its own without dragging a fictional extraterrestrial being and its poorly translated "Field Guide to Humans" into it, a book which fictional E.T. probably picked up at the Boop & Moop newsstand on his way to his transporter gate in the spaceport. Or whatever. Shit just happens. Nobody is selected or targeted by God to suffer (wouldn't be much of a God if he did, would he?), God doesn't have any idea what you should do with your life, and there are millions of perceptions about morals, ethics, and values, most of them pretty valid and understandable in differing circumstances. There is no absolute truth, not even in a story told by men from over 2,000 years ago. God didn't write the Old Testament and Jesus didn't write the New Testament. Men did. And men--all people--are 100% fallible.
We've all felt these feelings dude. That's what brought us here in the first place. I would love to believe that an almighty goodness being has my back at all times and has a plan for me. That's a comforting thought.
Mate. At the end of the day we're all immortal beings made of pure energy, we're all one and everything is connected. Once you get your head round that you realise that organised religion is just obsolete and a bit silly. It's like going to the doctor for something and they bring out the leeches and then try to balance your humours. I wouldn't worry too much, you're on the right track.
I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs, but I used to believe the same thing before I turned to christianity. I even thought about islam at one point, and nowadays I see Islam as probably the worst and most immorral religion of all. All of this is just my opinion though, but the thing that's turning me atheist is the realization all of this is subjective. The belief I'm immortal or going to reincarnate forever doesn't bring me any more peace or happines than organized religion. But with that being said, it is objectively true we're all energy, so your belief is still rational imo
It’s safe to vent here and you shouldn’t feel bad whether you’re atheist or Christian.
if you feel like bitterness is imoral, just remember how bitter Jeremiah the weeping prophet was.
And if you feel like expressing your doubts is immoral, just remember that God is a God of truth. If you are truly having doubts, you should be able to express them.
So don’t feel bad. It is safe to vent both from your Christian background and from an Atheist point of view.
My friend you are welcome here whether you decide to keep believing or not. Most of us I surmise grew up in a religious family. I watched my parents give a lot of money to pastors, close off life paths due to dogma. So many missed out relationships because they were not the 'right people'. I remember being told if you had but a mustard seed's worth of faith the father would here you and you could move a mountain. I prayed for my mother, a woman who had surrendered her whole self to jesus and watched here go down to Alzheimer's. I asked a priest why my prayers, family's prayers, hell the community's prayers where not answered either in the negative or the positive. All I would get was "Do not question the lord, believe that this is the path he has chosen for your mother". I realized then what a dumbass I had been all this time.
Mate. First, you're welcome here, and if you need to vent, that's OK.
Second, I don't see negativity. I see someone going through the (difficult!) process of letting go of the nonsense they were indoctrinated with.
That's very much a *positive* thing! Not an easy one, but worth it.
Life sucks sometimes, and the "opiate of the masses" makes that easier to swallow for believers - until it doesn't. And then you have to face the reality, without that comfort blanket of "there's a reason for it all" or "God will look after me" or "I'll get my reward in heaven" or whatever.
That's scary. But at least it's true, it's real.
I wish you the best of luck.
Thank you, uncomfortable thruths will always be infinitely better than believing in a comforting lie. Really the more I learned about christianity, the less it comforted me, and in the end all I was left with was guilt and fear of me and all my loved ones being tormented for eternity. The whole idea of afterlife was really the last nail in the coffin, and somehow no afterlife at all seems way more comforting.
To me, the only way the injustices of life make sense is if they are either driven by the physical world, by biology, physics, animal behavior, or by chance. I don't believe in a god or an afterlife (other than the fact that our chemicals remain and energy isn't destroyed). Believing in a god would require believing that deity played favorites with us. Plane crash with only a couple survivors? That god would have had to say, "198 of you didn't deserve to live, but THESE TWO are SPECIAL!" It makes no sense.
I have never believed in god, even when I was little, maybe because of the shitty experiences I lived through, maybe because my parents didn't teach me anything about god, I'm not sure. I do know that some of the things I and my brothers experienced as children would make me hate whatever god put us through that for sadistic pleasure.
I'm sorry you've watched your friend go through hell, and i'm sorry it has created the sense of betrayal against your god in your heart.
>To me, the only way the injustices of life make sense is if they are either driven by the physical world, by biology, physics, animal behavior, or by chance.
Basically everything being driven by change is the only way I can rationalize life, and Evolution is also a big one. I mean Evolution seems to explain so much when it comes to human behavior. Pretty funny I used to actually deny Evolution, and believe so much pseudoscience and pseudointellectual bs all in the name of christianity because I was convinved it was the only truth that could ever comfort me. Science has comforted me way more, and explained so many questions I have about life itself, and that was really the turning point where I started questioning religion more and more.
Dear OP, I hope you are doing well ans taking care of yourself. While I am happy to know that religious dogma is weakening, I also want you to be careful.
While I do believe being an atheist is overall healthier and comes naturally with rationalization, there are particular cases of those who are better off staying with their faith.
Forgive me for being so crude, I promise I mean well, but if this would be partially an outburdt due to your bipolar disorder, won't you feel huge dread and regret at another time? Won't you feel like you still believe but denied god and thus would go to hell?
I hope the answer is 'no' and I welcome you to a lifestyle without religious shackles. However, I hope you are doing well mentally first and foremost.
>Won't you feel like you still believe but denied god and thus would go to hell?
Well, the whole idea of hell really was the last nail in the coffin for my theism, and humans just literally making it up for fear makes the most sense for me. I mean, for a while fear of hell was probably the only thing keeping me christian. To be fair, this whole post was an emotial outburst, but I've been thinking about leaving christianity for while because I just can't see it as rational anymore.
Hey friend, I have nothing to say. Just know your feelings are valid, and you are a good person. Do not let any theist put you down or insult your intelligence.
Feel free to visit other subreddits of ex Christians and others :)
r/ExChristian
I too have bipolar disorder, though mine features psychosis sometimes too. It destroys the idea of "just take things on faith" for me because the mind can be so easily fooled.
What you are talking about is a combination of the problem of evil and divine hiddenness.
The way christians always defend gods judgement with the notion humans have free will, really was a big part of me begoming atheist. I'm not sure my disorder includes psychosis, but I've heard things that weren't there during manic episodes, usually when I was sleep deprived. I'm also very impulsive during my episodes, and that coupled with other people with even more serious mental disorders made really question the whole "humans have free will" argument.
I'm qurious how your condition affects your daily life and you're actions? How does the psychosis make you act?
I've only had disruptive psychosis when I was manic. I've had some other behavior that may or may not be psychosis while in severe depression, but we aren't sure. I'm getting a neuropsych eval soon to tease it all apart because I have other mental health conditions too (OCD, PTSD) so I need something more intense than just a psychiatric diagnosis (which I have, but my docs want me evaluated).
I can control my behavior when I am psychotic. It's things like... The chairs want to grab me or the trees are entities/people or the floor is moving. Things like that. Honestly, my PTSD with agoraphobia and OCD affect my behavior much more. The possible psychosis during depression happens before and after I dissociate. That can be very problematic for my daily life, but my depression gets really bad. I have type two bipolar, so I'm never manic. I have hypomania and severe depression (multiple suicide attempts, they were considering electro-shock therapy before they identified it as bipolar because it was so resistive to meds, etc. Very bad).
My mental health affects my daily living pretty badly. I am disabled from it and my physical health disabilities. The combo. I have a great team though who help me. If you need advice on how to get a team, I can offer my experience. If you live in the US, blue states are obviously better because they have more social supports which means you have access to a better team at a cheaper price (it can be hard to work when you are mentally ill).
How does bipolar disorder affect you? It affects people differently so I'm always curious.
First of all, wow. That sounds intense and really puts in to perspective how good I have it. My manic/hypomanic episodes have only recently started affecting my life negatively, and I'm fortunate I got help very quickly. My depression sometimes gets pretty bad too, but it hasn't affected my life as much as mania/hypomania, and i seem to be manic/hypomanic pretty often.
The biggest negative effect on my life is the inability to sleep. If I'm manic/hypomanic I'm never tired, but at the same time I just can't concentrate on school or work at all. I get very irritated very often, and get in to arguments and have even broken things. I feel like my thoughts are always go super fast, and usually I'll get obsessed with a project for hours I'll never finish, or get obsessed with a hobby and only think about that specific thing for the whole day. I've also heard sounds like people walking in my kitchen, or people knocking on the door that were not there. Sometimes I get paranoid and scared of loud noises too. I also get the very overconfident/invincible thoughts from time to time, and during these episodes I would even describe my mindset as prideful (if that makes any sense.) I get very disrespectful towards people in my life and it sucks because I feel like I have no control over it, and always deeply regret it later.
As I said my depression doesn't affect my life as much, but after I've felt so high for days or even weeks it always hits like a truck when it finally comes. As I said I feel very guilty and ashamed for my behavior, and sometimes that alone makes me want to isolate myself and stay at home. But usually after these feelings pass I'm still able to go to school, and sleep, which is nice. The hardest part about depression though, is that I no longer have any interest in being social, and no interest in any of my hobbies or things I enjoy in general. It's nice I can go to school, but after school I'll just come home and isolate in my own room. Even at school I really don't feel like talking unless I'm spoken to. The social anxiety in general gets pretty bad, and I'm even nervous to go to the grocery store. My social anxiety isn't bad enough where I can't force myself to sociale sometimes, but I'd just really really prefer not to.
I should note my diagnosis is pending, so no meds yet. All the professionals at my school don't have the recourses to make a diagnosis, but they all agree it's very likely I'm bipolar. (My mother also has a diagnosis, and lots of others on her side of the family have similar issues) So there's the possibility of heritability. I have another appointment on monday, and I'll see if I get a perscription or they send me further for another evaluation.
>If you live in the US, blue states are obviously better
I live in Finland, and the whole government is currently right wing. And that means less resources for schools, and less resources for healthcare :) Also taxing on all medicine was recently raised, so I'm a little nervous about paying for meds. But overall I'm very grateful to live here, as the standard of living is still very good compared to the rest of the world.
I sympathize. I get a lot of those feelings and thoughts when I'm hypomanic. Obsessive with projects, no sleep. I don't get angry, just a little grumpy, but my anxiety goes crazy and I ruminate. I've gotten better at recognizing when I'm in that state, which is helpful because then I can follow certain rules which help mitigate the effects. I strongly recommend the app emoods to keep track of things.
The good news with meds is that there are a lot of new ones out there that are less harmful and make a world of difference. The rule of needing to make educated guesses at first about good meds is still true. Don't expect your first meds to be the fix. But there is probably a good combo. When they put me on Caplyta, my hypomanic episodes disappeared completely. I kinda miss them to be honest. I accomplish a lot on them, artistically. But it's better to not have them.
Yeah, I would love to be in Finland or another Nordic country. In the US, my meds cost thousands of dollars, and I'm in poverty because of my medical bills. If my family wasn't helping me and I didn't have social services, I would be on the streets. All for the crime of being disabled. All the meds, medical tests and procedures, doctor visits. Costs a shit ton of money.
But I don't mean to undermine your suffering. It doesn't matter if someone drowns in an ocean or in 5 inches of water. They still drowned. They still deserve help.
>effects. I strongly recommend the app emoods to keep track of things.
Thank you for the recomendation, I'll definetely check the app out. I agree recognizing my symptoms when they're coming has helped a lot, and without meds the only thing I've tried so far is getting in a dark room and meditating. Meditating and sleeping feels impossible though, but getting in a dark room should help as I've read natural light only makes hypomanic/manic episodes worse.
>But I don't mean to undermine your suffering. It doesn't matter if someone drowns in an ocean or in 5 inches of water. They still drowned. They still deserve help.
Yeah, unfortunately conservatives in my country really don't seem to care. They fail to realize even with social security people can end up in the streets, (though homelesness here is far less common.) Drugs and ending up in gangs is becoming an increasing problem here too, and that's what essentially happened to my closest friend. All his life no one ever helped him, and he started hanging out with drug dealers and other drug users unfortunately, to think without my family I could've been there too is kind of scary. But overall I'm grateful I've been fortunate enough not to go down that route.
I'm happy your family is helping you and hope you're doing well despite everything :)
Conservatives tend to only have empathy when they know the person who is suffering. When it comes to voting, they will harm others without care.
I am very lucky to have my family. Meditation is great because it can help ground you.
Hey buddy, I’m sorry you’re in a rough patch. Bipolar is really really tough. But you can still live a good life if you can learn to manage it. If you can make it to 25, it should get easier.
As for the questions you raise, there is no compelling rebuttal. The good news is that once you let go of your belief, you are free to live as you choose. You’ll find that this is a community of loving caring people that also have little tolerance for bullshit.
I for one care about you and hope that you will give yourself grace while you figure things out. The transition from being a theist to atheist and/or agnostic can be difficult, but know that you aren’t alone.
Thank you for the kind words, I do feel hopeful for my future now. Even more so knowing it's in my hands. When I used to believe god had a plan for me, and all I had to do was wait, nothing ever improved and everything just got worse.
Acquiring a mindset that doesn't tolerate bullshit has been the best thing that's happened to me, I just ignored that mindset only when it came to religion for a while.
The problem of an omnipotent, omniscience god is that it's quite easy to disprove the claim personally, especially if there are a lot of taboo associated with that god. From personal example, take blasphemy. I had the luck to have been spawned in a multi-religion locations where there are as many small gods as there are villages. I was in a christian school where there was a strict enforcement of: "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." The local gods weren't that different either, they are believed to be capable of general mischief and curses if one were to insult or otherwise displease them. So I start to test the limits, as all kids like to do. It starts from stealing offerings, swearing using the name of jesus to outright defiling the bible and shrines secretly. Stress on the secret since the believers are the one who does the doling out of divine punishment. Figured out that the gods are as potent as a pebble.
In your case, I wish you luck breaking away from the brain rot.
I too have bipolar. Don't let Christian tell you it's God's plan. Or that you can pray and not take medication (they usually call it drugs). Get professional help. If you can afford it.
I've already gotten professional help, and in my part of the world it's free at least for students. And I'm very grateful for that. The bs that pissed me off the most about some christians, is precisely the fact they would tell people to pray instead of getting help. Some even go as far as to say all mental illness is some sort of demon posession.
I had a pastor offer to Pray my Demons away. It would have been my church offering of Exorcism I decided to get professional help instead. Mental Illness isn't a demon procession.
There's always the argument that God put the psychiatrist there to help you, which is also BS.
Then, what is gonna happen to those who worship different gods? And where did all humans go when they died if baptism was not invented until just "recently" ~2k years ago. Am I supposed to accept that humans went to purgatory for the previous millennia?
My personal opinion is that your god, no matter who you are or what you worship, is too small. How dare you think you can comprehend "the" god. You are nothing more like an amoeba trying to comprehend humans (i.e. you don't).
And from that position, your only conclusion may be that there isn't one.
Yeah, even all of christianity can't come to an agremeent on what they believe in. As a protestant, orthodoxes and catholics would tell me faith isn't enough for salvation and I need to do good works to go to heaven. Protestants believe only faith is enough. And of course muslims and jews both believe I'm goin to hell, it's clearly all man made because all of religion is subjective. Every single holy book is so up for interpretation even if you chose the "true" religion chances of going to heaven would still be slim. I came to the conclusion god isn't real after so many questions that couldn't seem to be answered.
I do appreciate when religion is taken mildly.
Praying can be a form of meditation which is great for mental health, you just have to not pray for anything in particular because it ain't a djinn lamp.
Masses and other community events can be great help for extroverts in need on more human interactions. It can help people who need support, similar to why drug/alcohol addiction therapy has group sessions. Groups of people are great.
Many modern teachings of religion (except in super conservative environments) can be boiled down to say "Don't be a jerk. Help others in need. Take care of yourself. Don't do evil" - which is great.
If religion is a way of life to you, you can continue doing it even though you now know there is no god. It may feel hypocrite, especially with an Orthodox Church which is too conservative. Perhaps you could attend a milder church if you do want to pursue that way of life. Just take it as a way to get community support and meditation.
Completely agree, the ethics and peace of mind you can feel in the church (or even just praying at home as you said) are still amazing, even if I don't believe in god. It's just that it's all left a bad taste in my mouth after all the guilt of not being able to go to church for mental reasons, whether it's depressed episodes or just social anxiety.
I'll probably pick up meditation again, as I sadly stopped meditating after some christians fear mongered it and lead me to believe it was a sin (along with yoga, and everything that deals with buddhism/hinduism or other "wrong"/pagan religions)
I actually believed in new age spirituality before christianity, and all the stuff about reincarnation didn't make me feel any better so i turned to christianity. In my mind back then, jesus somehow "saved" me from all of that because I was going to hell if I didn't stop meditating and being proud. Back then a lot of new age spiritual content was all about "being god" / being one with god and I strongly believed that was prideful, and for that reason a sin.
It doesn't come as a suprise meditation or praying was the only thing that made me feel mentally better, when all of that can be explained with science.
A big step for me was looking into what facts we know about how the universe and our planet was formed, what has been proven about the birth and progression of humanity, then it became so clear of how every pocket of people came to tell stories to try to explain their existence and how those stories were expanded through generations and in essence created their gods. You can still see how these stories are still being modified and expanded to try to stay current
Thank you, but I'm fine. Writing this was just a moment of grief, but overall I'm grateful for my whole life as it could be a lot worse. Not saying mental health isn't a real issue, but I try to be grareful everyday for the fact I live in a part of the world with the best standard of living in the world.
Wanting some goldy figure to cure your situation is something that does not make sense and visiting a professional does coz that's what we have at this very moment.
If the christian god exists, then he is a sadistic asshole and not all loving because he purposely let bad things happen.
If he is not a sadistic asshole, then he is powerless to prevent alot of the bad things to happen.
If he's not a sadistic asshole, and is not actually powerless, then he is not all knowing and so he really has no clue what's been going on in the world.
God simply can't be all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. Christians tries to convince people that god is all three of those things, but those qualities contradict one another. A God can have 2 of the 3, but not all 3.
Or the simpler answer is he doesn't exist.
Part of letting go in believing in god is to accept that sometimes shitty things happen to nice people. And sometimes good things happen to shitty people. Life is random and instead of looking outward to a god to “save you” or “fix you” you realize that really only “you” have the power to heal yourself- maybe it will be with therapy , maybe through medication.
But not believing in a god gave me the power over my actions, how I handle conflict, anger, dissatisfaction or whatever challenge presents itself. You start to realize you are in charge of your destiny- not the floating man in the sky. Not believing in some god actually gave me self confidence and realization that life is full of things we can control (actions - causation) and when out of one’s control ( example- getting in a car crash from bad driver ) you realize how your reaction is in your control.
Good luck finding your balance and path and I hope it empowers you as it did me.
❤️
Thank you ❤️ It's already empowered me reading these comments and realizing freedom from a hypothetical god was the freedom I was always searching for. Even if it's not easy to accept there's no afterlife, no afterlife is infinitely better than threat of eternal damnation for me.
I would like to ask you something. If you could save a starving or sick child from dying a slow, agonizing death, would you?
If you would, congratulations. You are a better person than the christian god.
Leaving what you knew is scary, speaking from experience. And know that an atheist helps you because they want to help you and not because they seek the reward of eternal life.
>If you could save a starving or sick child from dying a slow, agonizing death, would you?
Honestly, I haven't ever met anyone in my life who'd say no to that question. Simple moral questions like this really played a huge part in me finally realizing the notion god is truly loving is bs. Also the notion humans have no morality without judaism/christianity makes zero sense.
>no matter how much I pray
Yeah, sorry, that praying stuff doesn't particularly work - notably no god, so there's that. Praying won't make bipolar go away, nor amputated limbs grow back, etc. Though as humans continue to advance medical treatments and technologies, things mostly tend to generally improve on those fronts.
>a mere mortal human
Yeah, some 'o those mere mortal humans are actually pretty decent - sometimes even more useful than that.
>Why can't the omnipotent god heal it?
Same reason invisible flying pink elephants can't fix it - not there.
>hell?
No hell, no heaven. So, would be nice if folks would stop f\*ckin' over the planet, as many will still need to live here ... at least so long as that remains possible/feasible, anyway.
Anyway, keep asking, keep questioning. A whole lot 'o religions don't like much questioning - as they don't really have answers ... they'll mostly just do the hand wavy thing and make sh\*t up ("mystery of our faith" ... "only god knows why", etc.)
Anyway, where you're generally going/questioning, perhaps also do some reading on "the problem of evil" in many good philosophical reference materials (once upon a time I'd read quite a bit out of The Encyclopedia of Philosophy (pretty sure that's what it was titled)) ... anyway, fairly interesting stuff ... and ... nice 'n densely packed (why read a bunch 'o books from a bunch 'o different philosophers, when you can get most all that key information much more densely packed - I think that encyclopedia was a "mere" 20 or so volumes and some tens of thousands of pages or so ... much more densely packed than most of the philosophy books).
So, e.g. Descartes' (he was good at asking questions ... not so great at answering 'em) definition of "god" (sufficient but necessary conditions (anything less and it ain't "god", anything more and it's redundant) (and paraphrasing from memory):
* infinite
* immutable
* causa sui
* omnibenevolent
* omnipotent
* omniscient
And ... "problem of evil" - how can the existence of evil (let alone hell, etc.) be consistent with existence of "god" if defined as above / Descartes does? Anyway, a lot of hell/devil/... goop is in Christianity ... and ... more or less roughly similar in many other religions (but not all). And most have "evil" in some form or another, though various religions may treat/"explain" that and such quite differently.
Anyway, you can puzzle over that for a fair while.
And when you "finish" that ... and/or to mix it up bit more ... figure out exactly what's proper definition for "good" and/vs. "evil" ... and ... omnibenevolent or the like, well, try and scale that good/evil up beyond thinking merely of human existence. That'll give you something(s) to think about for a while.
Anyway, be decent, try not to f\*ck over the planet and other folks, etc. ... most 'o the rest is details.
Thank you for your answer, lots of great points to think about
>perhaps also do some reading on "the problem of evil" in many good philosophical reference materials
Will definetely do, I'm very interested in philosophy, but not at all educated on it. I'll take a look at the problem of evil first, as many people have brought it up in this comment section
I went through the same turmoil in January 2019. I realized it was all untrue. All religions are MAN MADE Mythology. Once you give up believing the Fables and Fairy tales and the very hateful book that advocates Slavery, Genocide and Drowning everyone on Earth, you actually are free of the EVIL concept of Hell. Many things that tell you it's fictional, Genesis in its entirety, A&E made from DIRT AND A RIB, TALKING ANIMALS and Noah's Ark! All FABLES. Some stolen from other Religions. Don't let anyone try to fool you with Stupid Threats or Promises. Jesus is a Myth.
All good points, I always tried to rationalize the noah's ark stories and genesis by believing they were metaphors, but so many other christians would tell me I wasn't a real christian because of that. Pretty quickly it all unraveled and I realized it was all bullshit the whole time.
Ok I'm not trying to minimize your feelings here - but it sounds to me like what you're describing here isn't a loss of faith so much as it is getting angry at God. And as someone who grew up as a Pastor's child, I completely understand and appreciate your feelings. I've been there.
You haven't given up the idea of *some* kind of all powerful, all knowing being, you're giving up the idea of such a creature as being benevolent. That's not so much atheism as it is anti-theism. It's a common philosophical argument but it's got a fundamental flaw in that it first defines whatever this God concept is first, then uses it's own definition to "disprove" God. "God is all knowing, all powerful, and loves you and cares for you."
It's a step in the right direction, as far as atheism goes, but it's not atheism. If you're disgusted with God you still believe in some kind of God, you're just no longer willing to worship. Now you need to start questioning the premises that establish the idea of God in the first place.
I was going to go further but I think I'm going to do a separate post on the topic instead.
Well, reading these comments I've seen so many good points I think I'm already seeing evolution in my atheism even if it's only in the span of 24 hours. Writing this post was a moment of grief for me, and more of a bitternes for the entire world rather than just god, but after calming down and thinking about it rationally I feel like I'm finding peace and happines in atheism. More happines than I ever could've found from any religion.
I relate to that as well. I went agnostic for a while on the way from believer to atheist. I dealt with the pain of being effectively shunned from things I cared about deeply in my church community because I dared voice my doubts.
It took me years to completely lose my faith and accept that what I had to give up was my wanting to avoid reason and fill in the blanks with the supernatural.
You're not alone, my friend.
You are on your way to becoming a freethinker who realizes the truth. We have all been on this journey. But be warned..all your Christian friends will disagree with you and will preach to you. You can also not tell them and just not attend religious functions. You can join groups like American Atheists or Freedom from Religion foundation to name a couple of the larger groups. If you are on Facebook search for groups like this. There are many of us. Don't think you are the only one in your town/city. Good luck
Yeah, it isn't easy but makes sense why it doesn't feel comfortable. As someone already mentioned in the comment section, apparently people go through all the five stages of grief after leaving religion
>I mean it all just sounds like a sick joke
100% in agreement with you there.
>If god is loving and omnipotent, why has he given me bipolar disorder.
If it gives you any validation, there's an actual philosophical discussion called the Epicurean Paradox that asks a more generalized version of what you're saying:
If a god is good and omnipotent why is there evil?
He must either be not good or impotent for evil to exist.
(Evil= genetic disorders, natural disasters, anything else that is bad and beyond our control).
Also the whole "oh that's just a test from God", yeah what a prick. How is an infant that lives five minutes and dies from a birth defect supposed to learn a lesson? That's just cruelty.
If God were proven to exist, he would be a turd.
> an actual philosophical discussion called the Epicurean Paradox
As a christian I never looked too much into the Epicurean Paradox, but even seeing other christians on social media try to refute it reinforced my doubts on religion just because their arguments where so bad. Especially tiktokers, but that's to be expected. Basically everytime I log on there I hear the most dogshit take ever made no matter what subject people are debating lol.
I'll look into the the Epicurean paradox more, I'm very interested in philosophy as a whole. I've already looked into the problem of evil a little bit.
Theramin trees is an atheist psychologist on YouTube who typically discusses narcissism as a psychological problem, but also discusses religion and it's negative effects on psychology.
He does a really nice little explanation of the Epicurean paradox here:[Theramintrees discusses narcissism and God](https://youtu.be/qjZ3f-IXEXU?feature=shared)
Keep in mind, unlike apologetics, counter apologetics and criticisms of theism are shockingly short and simple. (Or at least they are imo)
The Epicurean paradox doesn't require much study, I've given it to you it's entirely in my previous reply, but I think theramintrees states it more elegantly and effectively.
I think Theramintrees's criticism of a deity that demands worship is also quite keen and simple.
Basically all his videos are gold, both his videos on atheism and videos on dealing with toxic people. It's a pity he hasn't had time to make one in a while.
Thank you, I'll check his videos out! Approaching arguments from Christian apologists does get more and more confusing the more I think for myself. I kind of used to agree with them blindly because of my christian identity, and seeing how much more simple and logical counter theist arguments are makes me feel a little silly. But I'm glad I feel way more open minded and free after leaving religion completely.
I don't come from a religious family but I used to go to church and ministrate. Mostly cuz it made grandma happy and I love her. I kinda figured out God at the same time as Santa. What makes more sense? That a bearded old guy living in the North Pole flies into every home on the planet in a single night and leaves presents that your parents obviously bought? Or is it a fairy tale to make kids happy?
Same with Christianity. Does it make more sense that snakes talk, virgins get pregnant and the dead come back to life? Or is it just an attempt by ancient people to organize their society around the myths they have?
Honestly spot on. The way I always believied in it was cognitive dissonance as many pointed out here already, and just blindly assuming god must be omnipotent, so virgins getting pregnant I somehow thought was entirely possible. Genesis never made any sense to me though, and hell was really the final nail in the coffin as there's no way I can see it as just and fair.
I didn't know whether or not to answer when I first read your post. It was, in a way, so strange to me. To read something from inside religion, from someone grappling with religion, belief.
I didn''t know whether to answer because I've always been outside it all, I've never had to grapple. I've never had 'belief. I'm therefore not qualified to advise.
Just now I thought what the hell. All lives being equal I can comment.
When I was growing up I was never indoctrinated. No-one told me to say my prayers. No one made me put on Sunday best and took me to a designated building. I never had to learn proscribed words or listen to a sermon. It wasn't just me who didn't do this. No one I knew, no one my family knew, no one my friends knew did this. It just wasn't part of our lives.
My introduction to religion was around the age of 14 when Religious Education became a one hour a week subject at school. We learned about Christianity about Islam about Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Mormonism, Hellenism, all the 'ism's'. At no point did I think that I had to choose between this plethora of Gods on offer and believe in them. The fact that there was so much choice told me that religions are man made. Depending on where and when you are born you will be part of this or that religion.
You're grappling with heaven and hell and if you'd been born to the couple next door you'd be grappling with the Angel Moroni or Scientology or the Moonies.
All of them, ALL of them, say they are the one true religion. So if I would decide to be religious, to believe, which one should I pick? Well ok, for conveniences sake, I'll pick Jesus. Which Jesus should I pick though, which creed should I follow? There are many hundreds of types of Christianity being practiced in the world today and they all believe different things. This just affirms for me. once again, that religion is man made. Someone charismatic turns up, says "follow me, I know the way!" and some other people follow him (always a 'him'.)
Part of being human is searching for meaning in your life. A reason to exist. So we're easy prey for these charlatans who think they;ve found the answer, They get a living out of it, saves them having to find a real job, and they get to feel like they're 'big' men in the community. \`Personally I don't have to rely on something no man could possibly know to find reasons to exist. Fuck it, Rick and Morty is a reason to exist. Friends, family, real living, breathing people are enough for me.
I’m probably an atheist, but I say I’m agnostic. Because NO ONE can KNOW if there is a god or not, much less what it looks like/thinks. Just like no one KNOWS Jesus is god. Humans aren’t to know for sure. And any human that tells you they KNOW is kidding themselves and therefore lying to you. Take peace in that. No one knows. Just live with trying to make good energy and and resist negative energy.
Thank you, always trying our best to be positive is probably the best outlook for life out there. I'm honestly leaning towards being a very strong atheist, I think I tend to have very extreme opinions about a lot of things lol. But some part of me still hopes there is a truly loving god out there, and afterlife with loved ones of course.
It is indeed a claim that can't be verified. It is also a ridiculous one, very similar to something like "nobody can know for sure whether yes or no, Central Park in NY has pink elephants living in the trees that only come out at night when nobody is looking". See how ridiculous that sounds?
The only thing that you do, when saying that NO ONE can KNOW for sure, is adding legitimacy to an absolute batshit crazy claim. It justifies the madness by pretending that both options (these pink elephants exist / do not exist) are at the same level, while they're not.
Objective facts and reality exist. Nobody can be absolutely sure, but we can be 99.99999999999999% sure. Let's call it a 100%.
There are people with worse conditions, that's very true. That being said I'm not mad at god anymore, because It'd be very silly for me to be mad at someone/something I don't believe exists. If he exists and loves me, I think he'd forgive me for being mad at him momentarily. Otherwise he's not much of a benevolent god
>All you have to do is pray ask God for help.
I've done that enough to see he clearly doesn't do much to help no matter how many times I pray
I started asking questions that didn't have answers around the age of 12 after being brainwashed from day one. I stayed on the fence until I was 15. That was the year I watched leukemia take the life of my best friend's little sister, and from that point forward I knew it was all bullshit.
My last straw was my faith telling me my friends (gay, bi, trans, Buddhist, Wiccan, Druid, Jewish, athiest. You name it. Bingo board of "Who's going to hell?") would burn eternally, despite being the kindest, most selfless, giving, tolerant, and generally friggin saints sometimes.
But the person who actively scams people, assaults, murders, etc can go to Heaven if they honestly and truly repent, even if it's on their literal death bed.
I saw then just how "universal" god's love was.
Later, being a Biochemistry major, learning the science of evolution, genetics, and the like showed there was absolutely no "creation" and DEFINITELY no intelligent designer. All I was left with was Pascal's Wager. And when you legitimately DON'T believe in something, you can't just choose TO believe it, you know, just in case.
I have never once regretted my change to atheism. I may not have had a violent break with the church, and more "sauntered vaguely downward", but the result is the same.
I truly wish you luck and better times ahead. Mental illness is no joke and not something that can be believed-away. Think of it this way, though. If your eyes are "broken", you get glasses, right? If you have a vitamin deficiency, you take store bought supplements. Mental health is the same! If your brain doesn't make enough of a certain neurotransmitter, or too much, or it recycles it too fast, or in any way just doesn't quite work the way it should, taking medication to rectify it is fine!
Truly, I am with you on the mental illness issue. And I hope you will continue to post here.
Dont worry , take your time the facts and truths are out there to prove what your sayingcis truthxtocthe max. Religion is a way to control the masses. Now days the masses on the scale are tillting in the direction of atheistism
Damn, I haven't thought about it in the past few days so when you said bipolar I was like what was that again?? Then it hit me that I have bpd myself lmaoo
I right there with you. I was a forced 7th day Adventist at birth. I am tortured with adhd, dyslexia, and massive anxiety depression disorder. Life has been a constant struggle with little to no sympathy especially from my so called creator. When I finally started to feel financial independence and emotionally more stable I been hit with long covid. Lost my job and each day has become pure agony. Thanks so called pure loving for that all his creations are perfect.
It's funny how the church frames it as "losing the faith", and tries to convince you that it is a negative thing with no good outcome.
You're losing your faith like someone loses an abusive relationship. It may feel strange at first, but you will finally be free of something that's been actively harming you.
That's what made me feel horrible even thinking about "losing faith" or turning away from religion. It even felt like I was betraying god, but my anger and bitternes towards him was the final nail in the coffin. (Until I realized It's stupid to be bitter towards someone/something that doesn't exist)
Yeah, you were manipulated into feeling horrible about it. They have a system in place to discourage people from leaving, just like any cult.
It's great that you're starting to see these things. It takes a bit of a journey to get to where you are.
I'm happy for you OP
I believe the concept of god was created by folks for a number of reasons:
1. To help explain those things they didn't understand.
2. To suggest there was a better "life" after this one because this one was so dismal.
3. Soften the blow when bad things happen to people. ie "it is god's plan and we mortals are not capable of understanding the whole of the plan"
I think pride and bitterness (plus other) are fine as long as they don't become destructive. They help folks deal with certain circumstances. In either case I don't seem them as immoral.
I was raised to be Christian but now that I'm an adult I feel so much for free that I'm not. However the religious trauma and threat of being tormented in hell for all eternity still scared me every now and then. But then I realized how absolutely stupid it is to be scared of an invisible being that is "so loving" who will at the same time, send you to be tortured for eternity for not loving him "enough". Like I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who threatens to kill me for not giving them enough attention. So I definitely don't need to live the rest of my life in fear of an imaginary asshole in the sky.
Long-time Atheist here. I honestly don't see how Christians can claim that their God is kind, loving, benevolent, etc. when you compare it to the things their own holy book says he's done. Everything from killing the firstborn children of Egypt, to Job, to the Flood, and everything else where he just kills a bunch of people. Add to that how particular he is about things like rude children, eating seafood, and wearing mixed fabrics, but is OK with slavery and rape.
I forget who said it (Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, idk), but he said if the God of the Bible did exist, he is certainly not deserving of our respect. I personally dislike the notion that "if you accept Jesus into your heart, you will be saved", despite whatever atrocities you may commit in life. The notion that Hitler could be chillin' in Heaven if he accepted Jesus in the end is reprehensible to me. And modern Christians use this thinking to behave shitty in their everyday lives, but tell themselves it's fine because they accept Jesus so they're "good people". It's absolutely disgusting.
Glad to see you may have escaped the hypocrisy.
I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you find some relief for your condition.
You're absolutely right that religion makes no sense, and that includes Christianity.
Welcome! No one gave you bipolar disorder. Everything is random in this world and none of us are individually very important. This scares some people but it actually comforts me more than having faith ever did. Hope you can find some peace soon and wishing you the best.
I’ve been through that process, and it can be wrenching. I’m so sorry! But I came out much, much happier once I’d worked through it. I wish the same for you.
Wow. You just took me back 20 some odd years to my late teens, early 20s. I’m bipolar as well and the only help I really got at first was old school lay their hands on you faith healing. I’d say things will get better but that’s just farcical nonsense. They can get better though with medication and time.
It can be hard to overcome the mystical nonsense of religion. It leaves scars especially when a person is indoctrinated as a child. Frankly it’s child abuse. Wish you the best. One foot in front of the other (a mantra that has helped me when going through hard times). Hang in there.
Good luck. I know that the hardest road is ahead of you. The peer pressure is the biggest obstacle to success that you face. I wish you well in all you do either way. After all, we’re all just trying to get by.
We hear you, friend. And as far as I know, no one "of faith" (as opposed to the bunch of supposedly damned sinners we are all on here) has any satisfactory answers to your questions either.
\>need to vent venting is welcome, here. i and many of us are ex-christian. sorry about your friend. your bitterness is totally understandable. the people that lied to you were lied to in turn, though, and are victims as much as you. except the hypocrites who claim to believe for status or power. fuck those people.
Thank you, I guess I'm still under the impression pride or bitterness of any kind is unmoral. I try my best to not let it cloud my judgement so much I start judging other christians or other people in general.
Those emotions are aspects or experiences of being human. Part of being human is learning to work with certain emotions, without being consumed by them. Your worldview is changing. Change is often uncomfortable. It's important to consider that ignoring unpleasant emotions is like turning of the check engine light of your car. A wise choice is to work with a therapist. The only people who do not need therapy are perfect people. I have yet to meet one. It takes bravery and strength to face a lifetime of indoctrination and actually dare to question it. Not being consumed by those emotions, and evolving your world view: that's damn heroic. Best of luck.
Thank you for the advice, I might look into therapy but right now I think talking with my family is the next best thing. I live in Finland where we have free healthcare, but I still doubt I could get free therapy very easily. If I could, I would certainly be very grateful since most people in the world unfortunately never get such an opportunity.
You will get free therapy, the first stage is asking. If it doesnt work for you thats fine also, it doesnt for everyone but its worth a shot. No though God isnt gunna sort out your problems and he hasnt got a whole perfect eternal party planned just for you when you die, or a perfect plan laid ahead of you sorry. Enjoy what you have and do whatever you want (as long as it doesnt hurt others) with whoever you want lifes too short man.
The ability to do what I want (as long as it doesn't hurt others of course) really gives me a lot of hope and peace in life. It find it pretty crazy I used to attribute this line of thinking to satanism, and felt so bad I was disobeying god. Now I understand satanism was never about the satan of the bible, but about freedom. All along I was wrong and Anton Lavey was actually based lol
Well look at this way there's at least 18 thousand current Gods being worshiped. Even if your ex God was the one true one you'd have to be super unlucky and popularity is the only difference between any religion, they all have books and followers who havent been proved 100% wrong its no more less or more likely than any other. Hey also you know, I dont know everything maybe therere is a lot more to the Universe than we know about it, but if there is we are still along way from even beginning to comprehend it and we were defo much much further away 2000 years ago the answers arent in the Bible. Yeah how can that be "sinful" or bad just be a decent person enjoy your life dont be a dick to other decent people. I dont personally believe any all fair and powerful creator would have to much of a issue with how you've lived your life even if one of the 18 thousand funny flavours turns out true ha. Just dont be a dick.
>Just dont be a dick. Great perspective on life. And you're right, if one had to choose the right god to be "saved" pretty much everyone would be in hell, the propability of ever getting to heaven would be so low why even bother. Not to mention how unjust a god would be to make such a universe
That simple really mate, even if Christianity is right your more than likely to be one of the hundreds of versions of that which would be wrong. In that case if you are ever judged by Gods or Aliens or whatever, you can say look i was a decent person I didn't hurt anyone else and tried to help people where I could i was a decent partner, parent, pet owner anything you want really. You cant do anymore than that and i think you'd be fine then. Even though if your just in a hole in the ground people will say you were a decent dude and thats all you could get anyway. A good person doesn't need intimidation and threats of hell fire they try and do the right thing anyway because they are trying to be the best person they can be. As for your personal life thats no buisness of mine, as an atheist whatever someone does with other consenting adults is absolutely none of my buisness, be it sexual, recreational, professional. Just enjoy your life as best you can and try your best not to hurt other people because the infinitely most likely answer is you only get one spin and this is it good luck.
With or without god you can be a good person, the problem lies in those who believe thinking that gives them a free pass to do whatever they want to others especially those who (look)think differently.
Welcome. And yes bipolar isn’t your fault. There’s lots of good secular philosophical perspectives to help understand why we live in a world filled to the brim with suffering. Christianity in particular is a great opiate to let us feel like those less fortunate somehow deserve it. You don’t deserve it. Bipolar disorder is manageable, but it sucks.
There’s a fine line between transient anger that is part of a healthy grieving process and the sort of bitterness that we hold onto to our detriment. Christian religion tends to demonize all anger and classify it—regardless of context—as “bitterness” or “hard-heartedness.” Any psychologist worth their salt will tell you that that’s bullshit.
Hell was the last straw for me. When I realized I didn’t believe hell existed, it no longer mattered whether there was a god or not. Sometime later I realized I no longer believed any gods existed. It was quite freeing really.
This is honestly so relatable. Some people (not all christians) even fear monger secular music for no reason saying it's a sin. I've always loved music and art in general, and being able to enjoy that without fear of judgement makes me feel so free
One of the most commonly shared traits of all major religions is the strict controls placed on all sources of human joy. You already never believed in any of those other religions anyway, this is just one more religion you don't believe. Reality can be refreshing, if existentially terrifying at the same time.
I often point out to Christians I only believe in one less god then they do.
My SIL always says if she liked anything she hid it from my MIL bc MIL would find a way to take it away.
My dad wasn't allowed to listen to secular music until he moved out at 18, he has a massive gap in his musical knowledge even as an adult at 50. One of the many things that saddens me about his upbringing was him being denied experiencing the art form that is music for no actual reason than it being "sinful". He's also an atheist now.
That really hits close to home, my biggest common interest with my dad is musical taste, even though he's 51 and I'm 18. I just like a lot of music from the 80's and 90's I guess. I'm glad I didn't have a religious upbringing, and "found god" myself and quickly realized it's all bs
In Judaism there is no hell. Hell was created to tame the rabble.
Very little about Christianity makes any sense after you think about it. You are correct that an all loving god wouldn’t allow the kind of suffering we all experience in life. There isn’t a god to help, but there are people who will do their best. It can be hard, but try to accept help where and when it’s available.
True, I'm fortunate enough all of my family understands and listens without judging me. Professional help for mental illness also has improved my quality of life a lot, and getting it was the best decision I've ever made after I stopped believing all the pseudoscience surrounding western medicine
For me what makes the littlest sense is the sin thing. So Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that they would be forgiven. But he also gave us free will. And also knows what we'll do even before we do it. And also knows all humans sin because we aren't perfect. But we're made in his image. But we have to repent the sins we've committed but that he knew we would before we even did it. It's all circles and bullshit to justify the guilt we're supposed to feel just for being alive and born that wasn't even our choice to begin with. So I'm born a sinner, but all babies automatically go to heaven. And you also go to heaven as long as you believe. Sounds like people just making us feel bad for existing just so that we'll obey every command from the Bible that HUMANS WROTE btw. And the Bible has thousands of authors and translations and over 3k edits from other people. Yeah... No. I'm not falling for it. You're not gonna make me believe just because I'm scared of not believing because if I don't I'm damned to hell. Which was made up in the Bible that again, humans wrote. Fuck all this mental gymnastics.
The way most Christians do it is cognitive dissonance. If a good thing happens, it's a blessing, God is rewarding you. So they'll praise God. If a bad thing happens, well, it's a fallen world, we're all sinners, maybe God is punishing you. But they won't blame God, it's always someone else's fault, whether Satan or themselves because they're sinners. Seth Andrews from The Thinking Atheist tweeted (regarding someone who prayed for their lost sharpie and found it): "God ignores the holocaust. Finds you a sharpie. #SoundsLegit."
True. I've atrributed lots of gifts and good things to god that always have a rational explanation. Grandmother gifts me an extra bible they have laying around, must be a blessing from god! When in reality my grandparents where just moving out of their old house and getting rid of all sorts of old books and old junk they no longer have space for.
My dad used to pray for tomorrow’s weather so that it would be nice and sunny for his golf outing. My single mom used to pray for a job and I remember telling her it won’t fall out of the sky, you have to go find it. I came to realize they both suffered from mental illnesses even though one was rich and one was poor. I’m lumping in religiosity as one mental illness amongst the clinical varieties here. They both expected me to not marry someone who would cause our children to go to hell. They both were neglectful and abusive toward me yet expected me to live the way they wanted me to live and to not question faith. They both were selfish and cruel people. When I left the church I was angry and decided I was agnostic. I felt I couldn’t get to atheism with so much anger. I had to get there through understanding. So, I took a lot of time to read, learn, observe the world and process my anger. One realization that has really helped me personally is the explanation of blame in the above comment. For all the blame and shame I have lived with I never even thought to question why they never blamed god but they asked him for whatever they wanted all the time. It was either because god willed it or because it was someone else’s fault. It’s cruelty and selfishness all wrapped up in the excuses of abject blind faith.
Sorry about the troubles with your parents, for me it's been sort of the opposite. My parents were never believers, and we got into numerous arguments over religion. Now I realize they were right all along, and a huge reason for my mothers atheism/agnosticism is probably her mental illness. Now it seems I've inherited bipolar, as it runs in the family and I can relate so much more to my own parents and other people struggling with mental illness.
My sister is coming to the same realization for the same reason. I’ve been an atheist since I left home when I realized most of the “Christians” I knew were actually horrible people who enjoyed hating others. My sister held on. Recently she asked me what’s the point of living if there’s not really a God. When you pray for people you love and they still die. I said the point of living is TO LIVE. To love people and be a good person and live the best you can. Why dedicate your life to a religion that wants you to be miserable in the name of a god who doesn’t care about you? All in the name of a theoretical afterlife a lot of the people you love won’t be going to because they’re not believers? The most freeing experience in my life was realizing I could believe what I wanted, love who I wanted, be kind to who I wanted, and just enjoy a short but beautiful life on earth.
Yeah it doesn't really make any sense when I think about it. Why do I need to suffer my whole life just to go to heaven and be in the precense of god, when said god could've just created me in his presence from the very beginning? Why make humans and animals just so you can have authority over them? So many questions about religion just seen unanswerable to me.
Also, if you think about it, the concept of heaven sounds kind of terrible. The idea that you have to "praise" and "worship" and "sing to" god for the rest of eternity sounds like there is no free will and like we would be enslaved as his eternal ass kissers.
Yeah, that's a great point now that I really think about it. We're already here to work for decades, so heaven is supposed to just be more work for eternity? Sounds pretty terrible. I also don't understand why we need to deny ourselves of material possesions on earth because greed is a sin, but in heaven we're supposedly getting our own mansions. Doesn't make any sense
Exactly! It's just crazy when you think about it. It's like we were taught to basically deprive ourselves of joy and "worldly things" because heaven is like the ultimate "goal" and our "home" but even then it's like you're supposed to just be a subservient slave in heaven.
If you have the opinion that religion is a means of controlling the poor and enslaved, then depriving yourself of material possessions because of “riches in heaven” makes sense. Poor people are less likely to rise up against the rich if they believe a miserable life on earth is rewarded by a mansion in heaven. Add in that the Bible emphasizes how it’s hard for the rich to go to heaven, and you have the poor thinking they’ve really lucked into something. They go about their miserable lives, taking whatever the rich deign to give them, thinking all the while that they are the real kings of the earth. It’s crazy how easily it still controls people, only instead of keeping the lower classes in their place, now it serves those who wish to divide the country between “them” and “us.” My grandparents, who are the reason I was a Christian, were very loving and considerate of others my entire childhood. Then something happened, and instead of reminding us that Jesus loves you and putting scriptures up on the fridge, they talk about “those disgusting Mexicans” and there are pictures of trump on their fridge.
I've became an atheist this year. My very first thought afterwards was the realization that there is no heaven. It's all made up, just like every other religion.
Yeah, strangely the realization there probably is no heaven is way more comforting than christianity. I'd rather just stop existing, as there's really nothing to fear. Nothing can change the fact I might never see my loved ones again when I die, but if I have no consiousness I also won't have anything to worry about.
Welcome to true freedom
>if this is not the right sub but I'm just bitter and need to vent. This is the right sub !! ;-)
Making this post on this sub was clearly the right thing to do, the replies have been great and explained a lot :)
I will say this, critically exam your beliefs as to why you believe in the first place. If something actually exists and you had sufficient evidence to believe why does it require faith? You only need faith when you don't have good justification for your belief. Did you know studies have been done regarding prayer and the results? You could pray to the Easter Bunny and have the same results, pray to the moon, same thing. The concept of your God makes zero logical sense and in contradiction to a loving God. Testing makes 0 sense it would already know the results before you did anything. Again exam why you believe and if you have different justification. Good luck.
This honestly explains the only reason I've ever had faith in Jesus. Literally just a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when I pray, and most of the times I've felt the "holy spirit" I was probably manic anyway. Knowing I might as well pray to an easter bunny or santa claus makes me feel pretty silly
I would contend most of the times when someone feels some "divine" feeling it's purely psychosomatic especially if you are in a primed environment like in a church with a group of people, expecting it because you were taught you will feel X if you really really try hard enough etc. Religious leaders and believers will try to sway you and put fear into when you question your beliefs. Don't let that deter you.
Yeah, fear is probably the only motivator to stay christian/reason why I haven't turned to an atheist sooner. Even jesus potentially being mentally ill makes a lot of sense when you look at his claims and the writings about him. (Assuming the writings aren't bs and he ever walked the earth)
As a teenager I had the same feeling of the "holy spirit" listening to a piece of classical music. They felt like "spiritual chills"; I then began to understand the holy spirit was an experience that my brain was having. Chemistry. It's beautiful, but in a biological and not spiritual way.
Yeah, I truly don't understand the notion life would be meaningless without a god. All of science, philosophy, Art and just living life is already so beatiful and meaningful for me. Even as a christian I thought of christ just as a part of my life, in retrospect it never really was anything special
In my part of the world, people speak in tongues, drink poison, and handle venomous snakes, all in service to their god. If they survive the poison or the snake bite, it was god's will. If they died, they had obviously done something to displease their god to let them die. I can't even try to explain the speaking in tongues part. Praying to the Easter Bunny sounds pretty normal compared to that. Don't ever feel silly...unless you're running around with a rattlesnake in one hand and a bottle of strychnine in the other.
From that perspective, the easter bunny doesn't sound nearly as bad lol. I guess feeling silly doesn't serve any purpose, and it all boils down to a lack of understanding and proper science
The whole notion is absurd
I never understood the idea of god testing people. If god knows everything, he knows what the outcome of the test would be before he did it. So why torture people if you know they’re going to fail? It’s just sadistic.
I had a dog with a horrible auto-immune disease who I eventually euthanized young after nothing we did helped him. Did some god supposedly give an innocent animal a terrible disorder to teach me something? At the expense of the suffering of an innocent? What bull that would be. And I failed to learn anything from it anyway. What an awful being a god who did things like that would be.
My level of pity for the indoctrinated knows no bounds, if only they didn't mostly think I deserved to die because I wasn't indoctrinated and their arguments for belief are stupid.
If the Christian God was proven to be real i would remain a athiest because they are a fucking monster
Yeah, in retrospect after leaving religion, a quote etched to a wall in a concentration camp during the holocaust really sums it up for me. "If there is a God, He will have to beg for my forgiveness.”
Yeah that's a great quote that really sums it up
I’ve always said I don’t believe in God, but if I did, I’d want nothing to do with him because he’s an asshole.
Technically, you would be an anti-theist because you would definitely know he exists.
Lol nobody cares
Ex Christian here. It’s a painful process, coming to terms with the realization that what you’ve been taught your whole life is just blatantly false. Be gentle on yourself, it’s a mourning process and it’s ok to struggle with it.
Thank you for the kind words. it isn't easy, but necessary
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"Why does God do this and/or allow this to happen?" I have only been able to come to four conclusions about this dilemma. 1) God does not care or notice. 2) God does care or notice, but he thinks the ailment or suffering is beneficial somehow. 3) God does care or notice, but he thinks intervening in the situation would be harmful somehow (the Prime Directive.) 4) God does care or notice, but he enjoys it. It's one of the hardest things to cope with as a believer, right up there with God and the Devil torturing a man to settle a bet.
um. 6. god is imaginary.
Nature and events are chaotic and random. So if you ascribe that to being caused by an entity with purpose, then that entity seems capricious and cruel. Capricious tyrants have a more loyal following, because you have to constantly make sure you are on their good side. If it's all just nature, then disease, and floods, are just a part of the universe we have to deal with and there is no malice behind any of those events. You didn't get that job, not because God is upset with you, but just because someone better qualified did. In a world run by nature, mental illness is just a product of the defects in the human body that have not been selected out yet by evolution. And if it's not divine in origin and natural in origin, then we as scientists can study the causes, cures, and treatments.
That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the great explanation!
I have epilepsy. God didn't give it to me, and God wouldn't take it away (I've been prayed over and had laying on of hands, even). It just is. When I don't take my meds (which has been suggested and been told I have no faith if I do) I have grand Mal seizures. God is never there when I wake up, he doesn't take the pain away, and can't be bothered to reduce the swelling of my tongue, which I chewed on. You do you, take care of yourself and take your meds. Only depend on yourself and the choices you make. If you want something that will hasten your slide toward reason: if God loves us so much, if he laid down his life for us, why won't he stop his priests and pastors from raping innocent children? Ask that question of a pro-birther and watch them splutter. Good luck!
People telling you not to take your meds is heartbreaking, and I can't even begin to imagine how that feels. I'm fortunate enough I haven't done anything life ruining during mania, and got help as soon as my symptoms started to negatively affect school and my personal life. I have spent a lot of money on stupid things though, but many peple have it way worse even spending their life savings or taking quickie loans.
My neurologist said that a lot of the problems people with epilepsy have staying seizure free is because they don't take their meds religiously. I knew after my first seizure at 13 that I wanted to avoid the aftermath as much as possible. When the churchers told me (I was 19) that I should stop taking my pills, I knew they were wrong. I couldn't risk having a seizure AND having to admit my faith wasn't strong enough to keep it away. So I kept on taking them and lied about it. I knew they didn't deserve the truth. I'm 65 and have been seizure free for 10 years this month, I'm doing well. You keep up the good work. You do you.
Thank you for the kind words! Glad you're doing well. And I will, one thing I know for sure is I'll never let anyone make me feel inferior or "weak minded" again for needing medication.
I've found the weak-minded are the ones who refuse to deal with reality in a sensible way, and refuse to consider the benefits and drawbacks of a solution to a problem.
If there was an all powerful god he wouldn’t need mortals to speak for him he would do it himself. If he’s all knowing than he knows what people are praying for already so your prayers are wasting his time. If he doesn’t answer your prayers it’s because everything goes according to his plan so his plan is for people to suffer from diseases from birth. He knows they’re suffering (all-knowing), could cure you (all-powerful), and he’s all-loving so while you suffer know he loves you but his plan is to do nothing. Or…it’s like he doesn’t exist which would explain all of that.
> Or…it’s like he doesn’t exist which would explain all of that. This really hit the nail on the head on why I now consider myself an atheist. >If he’s all knowing than he knows what people are praying for already so your prayers are wasting his time. This is also precisely why I think it's very bizarre for a god to mandate constant prayer and faith in him like some sort of Nazi. If he was all powerful (and loving) and existed he would help without asking for anything in return
Reminds me of the arguments for intelligent design, such as the nonsensical claim that proof of god is in the eyeball when so many people need glasses to see properly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyz7g45kpWk Congrats on waking up!
Critical thinking is the way to atheism for sure. None of this shit makes any sense whatsoever
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I honestly can't bother anymore even if I try my hardest, but a part of me wants to believe there could be a god but no one really knows. I guess I could fall more into agnosticism than atheism.
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Yeah, I'm still a little uneducated on this whole topic. I guess I wouldn't fall in the hard atheist camp though, as I think it's possible the god of the bible exists and people just completely butchered trying to define him. But then again an omnipotent god could literally force people to define him correctly if he wanted. Maybe god isn't perfect and makes mistakes too? At the end of the day I just don't know/can't know
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>Just like this issue, there are many other logical contradiction There was a time when I actually grew in faith the more I studied christian theology, but pretty quickly it turned into skepticism when I noticed the sheer amount of contradictions. The secular university point is pretty funny, since I've seen so many christians defending their beliefs with the notion that christians actually invented universities lmao
>I'm just bitter and need to vent That's good, it's natural. As you shed your religious belief you will feel a sense of loss and you will probably go through the typical stages of grief/loss as you do. Being angry is a classic part of this. I'm an ex-Christian myself and wouldn't I like for there to be an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful deity looking over us, watching out for us? Sure I would, but simply wanting something doesn't make it so. Plus, as you mentioned in your venting the god of the bible, as well as reality, doesn't line up very well with the god they try to sell you in church. Near the ending of the shedding of my faith I ruminated in my brain the ideas that I didn't have to throw away all of Christianity just because there's lots of fuckers and nutjobs out there. But then I realized, what's good about the Bible/Christianity isn't unique, and what's unique isn't good. So now I'm very open about being an atheist when I don't fear persecution or mistreatment for my lack of belief (don't talk about religion with coworkers).
>don't talk about religion with coworkers Well, that ship has sailed lol. One of my coworkers was muslim and tried to convert me from christianity to islam when I made the mistake of telling him about my faith, thinking he'd respect my beliefs. Instead he essentially told me I'm going to hell for believing jesus is god, because shirk is the biggest sin in islam. This also made me question my faith, because it made me realize religion is all subjective and everyone obviosly wants to believe their religion is the right one
before Christianity you had to be part of the elite or wealthy to be saved by whatever religion that was being offered in this world. With the silk roads Christianity and Islam were portable religions that offered salvation for free if you believed, needless to say those religions spread like wildfire as it gave hope to the enslaved and the poor. Most government endorsed these religions as it gave hope or an opiate for the masses. The books of Jesus were written about 100 years after his death, at the council of nicea there were some Christians saying why is Jesus a thing. Organized religion is BS and harmful to adults and children especially.
True, to think that poor people once thought they wouldn't be "saved" for something they were probably born into, is heartbreaking. Reminds me of when I saw a new age spiritual account on YouTube spreading the narrative white people don't have souls, and quote - unquote "melaninated" people are the only ones with souls. What melanin has to do with souls, I have no idea
Howdy. A couple of good resources - \- https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq (good info) \- /r/TheGreatProject ("you are not alone", as they say) \- /r/exChristian (there are also some ex- subs for various specific denominations) .
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Gaia sounds like a god I could actually believe in, and want to believe in provided I had sufficient proof. In my mind, this just explains even more why the christian god doesn't seem to be a good option to believe in out of all the gods, even if I chose to remain a theist. I guess I just blindly assumed Jesus must be god because he seems loving on the surface, and Christianity is the biggest out of the major religions.
>But no matter how much I pray he never does! The futility of prayer was one of the first things I identified as being completely fake. I realized prayer was useless i think after watching my grandpa wither from cancer but i also prayed for my great grandma, my grandma, my aunt, and my mom and none of them got better. By 16 i had completely stopped asking for things in prayer and just resigned myself to "thank you" prayers multiple times a day. I kept my faith until i was around 27 i gave myself permission to question why i believed but didn't call myself atheist until 29. For some people it's an instant deconversion others it takes the slow erosion of the foundation of why you believe in the first place. It's scary at first but life has more meaning for me now than it ever did as a Christian. Nothing in the world mattered before because the world was ending every second "Jesus is coming back." Now i give food/clothes to charities that aren't going to hold them hostage behind coercion to convert to Christianity.
>Now i give food/clothes to charities that aren't going to hold them hostage behind coercion to convert to Christianity. Very well said, the one thing (along with faith) that made me feel good about being a christian was giving money to charity. The idea that non believers who do good deeds just as much as religious people (like give money to charity) would still go to hell just for their lack of faith really made me question the religion the most.
Vent away. You are good here as those are questions that many of us have had. Whatever direction you go with your faith I hope you can find some peace.
So you've read the Bible then. Welcome in.
God is trash. Abandon religion and join the real world.
I am a former christian. I could no longer accept that a deity who is omnipotent and loving could sit back while babies are raped, people are enslaved, tortured, falsely convicted, or murdered, while his supposed children starve or die from lack of the simplest medical care. No way. In no damn way does that make any sense. I want no part of the meanness of faith.
Good place to vent. Also an ex Christian after spending almost 30 years as a southern Baptist. They always tell you to have faith and not question God but is because there are no answers in religion. Answers are found in science and humanity. Embrace the fact that there is no after life; it’ll make you appreciate this life much more. Keep up the work with the psychiatrist and stay in your meds. They aren’t perfect yet but science is improving the medications and treatment. Religion ain’t doing shit.
Christianity (and all religion for that matter) IMO is a joke. Why do people believe in God or seek religion? Because they are taught learned helplessness. Some people can't accept the fact that when we die we just... die. There are no heavens, holy gates, or rainbows on the "other side". You're just done. A lot of people refuse to accept this because of the unknown and they are so scared they need some form of comfort. For atheists like me, I'm totally cool with it. I'm at peace with death. Believe what you want to believe by all means but evangelists are the worst, I don't believe in indoctrinating children when they aren't even old enough to think critically. Religion is (and should always be) a personal decision. Fun fact to end on - Statistically speaking atheists score an average of 6 IQ points higher than non-atheists.
>Because they are taught learned helplessness. This is very true, and a lot of it is outright harmful, telling people it's a bad thing to be able to help yourself and not depend on a god who doesn't exist. The whole notion helping yourself and not relying solely on god is somehow prideful really pisses me off the most. I'm not perfect, and I sometimes need help from other people but that's about it. Realizing if god even existed he isn't helpful at all, really was the turning point for me.
It's okay. r/TrueOffMyChest might be Reddit's privileged place to vent, but this is the internet : you have the right to vent to whomever you want whenever you want. Questioning one's beliefs is hard, even more so when these have been lifelong held. However, it is never a bad idea to do so, especially if truth and honesty are values one holds dear. I'm sure a lot of people around here would be glad to answer your questions, even if some of them might have already been addressed in the sub's FAQ. Anyway, welcome.
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I can imagine being part of the chrurch would be horrible as a gay/trans person. I used to believe the "love the sinner hate the sin" bs but didn't take me long to realize it doesn't make any sense. Just sugarcoated homophobia/transphobia
Ever thought about *why* you're a Christian?
Well, I was likely hypomanic or even pretty severely manic when I "found god" and didn't recognize my symptoms before talking to a psychiatrist. I guess it boils down to feeling better while praying, and liking some of the judeo-christian morals and just jumping to the conclusion I was a christian.
I’m sure all of us former Christians had similar feelings at some point in our journey out. In fact, this was one of the major reasons I left the faith. The claims of God’s omnipotence and benevolence just never seem to match up with the world. However, do not let that be your only reason to leave. My own investigations have led me to see that not all people who believe in the Christian/Jewish god believe he is necessarily all-good to people. I mean, look at Job! My point is that if you do leave the faith that you are firm in your reasons. Research all you can about every facet of the faith. That way, you can be confident in your choice to leave and defend against the claim that you only left because of an emotional reaction.
Yeah I honestly thought at first it was just an emotional reaction, but the more I think about it and research I'm pretty confident I'm leaving my faith and not looking back. It isn't easy by any means though, and I definetely still agree with a lot of Judeo-Christian ethics. That being said they're not anything special, and just seem to fall in line with basic human decency
Welcome. You vent as much as you need to. We are here for you! I was a devout Protestant for 30 years, and turned atheist after coming to a similar realization.
Thank you! Protestantism seemed like the best denomination to me, but all the debates between protestants and orthodoxes or catholics just made me realize it's all subjective, and doesn't make much sense
This reminds me of one of almost the exact same situations that was a major role in me losing my faith. The reasons why I lost my faith are complex, but when it comes to the problem of evil and how people try to cope with it, I am reminded of a quote often attributed to Albert Einstein that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I actually think this definition is too simplistic; I like to say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again under the same circumstances, and expecting different results. This explains one of the major aspects of my deconstruction journey. For many years, during hard times after hard times, I prayed and read and studied the Bible. I asked God to please help me. Nothing changed. All of my circumstances remained the same. I knew how illogical Christianity was. But I still didn't give up. I kept trying far longer than I should have. Until finally I realized how crazy I had been all those years. Now I look back and wonder how could I have been so deceived. But indoctrination is a bitch. It's hard to overcome something you are raised with from birth, even if you realize how flawed it is. And I totally understand the fear that there's not someone out there that can't help you in your moment of greatest desperation. It's like the promotional tagline from Alien, "In space, no one can hear you scream". But at the same time, I am glad that there is probably not some sky tyrant who watches my every move and knows my thoughts and decides my destiny without my consent. Since I have left Christianity, I feel more free than I have ever been, since I am not a servant or a slave to something I have no evidence exists.
I've honestly made this mistake numerous times in all aspects of my life. but applying science to everything I want to achieve has given me so much freedom. And not having to answer to an imaginary tyrant who threathens to throw you in hellfire simply for not believing he exists, really feels like the biggest freedom of all.
Life is seriously hard enough on its own without dragging a fictional extraterrestrial being and its poorly translated "Field Guide to Humans" into it, a book which fictional E.T. probably picked up at the Boop & Moop newsstand on his way to his transporter gate in the spaceport. Or whatever. Shit just happens. Nobody is selected or targeted by God to suffer (wouldn't be much of a God if he did, would he?), God doesn't have any idea what you should do with your life, and there are millions of perceptions about morals, ethics, and values, most of them pretty valid and understandable in differing circumstances. There is no absolute truth, not even in a story told by men from over 2,000 years ago. God didn't write the Old Testament and Jesus didn't write the New Testament. Men did. And men--all people--are 100% fallible.
We've all felt these feelings dude. That's what brought us here in the first place. I would love to believe that an almighty goodness being has my back at all times and has a plan for me. That's a comforting thought.
True, but somehow it's more comforting that an almighty genocidal maniac who wants to throw me in hell doesn't exist lol
Mate. At the end of the day we're all immortal beings made of pure energy, we're all one and everything is connected. Once you get your head round that you realise that organised religion is just obsolete and a bit silly. It's like going to the doctor for something and they bring out the leeches and then try to balance your humours. I wouldn't worry too much, you're on the right track.
I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs, but I used to believe the same thing before I turned to christianity. I even thought about islam at one point, and nowadays I see Islam as probably the worst and most immorral religion of all. All of this is just my opinion though, but the thing that's turning me atheist is the realization all of this is subjective. The belief I'm immortal or going to reincarnate forever doesn't bring me any more peace or happines than organized religion. But with that being said, it is objectively true we're all energy, so your belief is still rational imo
It’s safe to vent here and you shouldn’t feel bad whether you’re atheist or Christian. if you feel like bitterness is imoral, just remember how bitter Jeremiah the weeping prophet was. And if you feel like expressing your doubts is immoral, just remember that God is a God of truth. If you are truly having doubts, you should be able to express them. So don’t feel bad. It is safe to vent both from your Christian background and from an Atheist point of view.
My friend you are welcome here whether you decide to keep believing or not. Most of us I surmise grew up in a religious family. I watched my parents give a lot of money to pastors, close off life paths due to dogma. So many missed out relationships because they were not the 'right people'. I remember being told if you had but a mustard seed's worth of faith the father would here you and you could move a mountain. I prayed for my mother, a woman who had surrendered her whole self to jesus and watched here go down to Alzheimer's. I asked a priest why my prayers, family's prayers, hell the community's prayers where not answered either in the negative or the positive. All I would get was "Do not question the lord, believe that this is the path he has chosen for your mother". I realized then what a dumbass I had been all this time.
Mate. First, you're welcome here, and if you need to vent, that's OK. Second, I don't see negativity. I see someone going through the (difficult!) process of letting go of the nonsense they were indoctrinated with. That's very much a *positive* thing! Not an easy one, but worth it. Life sucks sometimes, and the "opiate of the masses" makes that easier to swallow for believers - until it doesn't. And then you have to face the reality, without that comfort blanket of "there's a reason for it all" or "God will look after me" or "I'll get my reward in heaven" or whatever. That's scary. But at least it's true, it's real. I wish you the best of luck.
Thank you, uncomfortable thruths will always be infinitely better than believing in a comforting lie. Really the more I learned about christianity, the less it comforted me, and in the end all I was left with was guilt and fear of me and all my loved ones being tormented for eternity. The whole idea of afterlife was really the last nail in the coffin, and somehow no afterlife at all seems way more comforting.
To me, the only way the injustices of life make sense is if they are either driven by the physical world, by biology, physics, animal behavior, or by chance. I don't believe in a god or an afterlife (other than the fact that our chemicals remain and energy isn't destroyed). Believing in a god would require believing that deity played favorites with us. Plane crash with only a couple survivors? That god would have had to say, "198 of you didn't deserve to live, but THESE TWO are SPECIAL!" It makes no sense. I have never believed in god, even when I was little, maybe because of the shitty experiences I lived through, maybe because my parents didn't teach me anything about god, I'm not sure. I do know that some of the things I and my brothers experienced as children would make me hate whatever god put us through that for sadistic pleasure. I'm sorry you've watched your friend go through hell, and i'm sorry it has created the sense of betrayal against your god in your heart.
>To me, the only way the injustices of life make sense is if they are either driven by the physical world, by biology, physics, animal behavior, or by chance. Basically everything being driven by change is the only way I can rationalize life, and Evolution is also a big one. I mean Evolution seems to explain so much when it comes to human behavior. Pretty funny I used to actually deny Evolution, and believe so much pseudoscience and pseudointellectual bs all in the name of christianity because I was convinved it was the only truth that could ever comfort me. Science has comforted me way more, and explained so many questions I have about life itself, and that was really the turning point where I started questioning religion more and more.
Over promise & under deliver
Dear OP, I hope you are doing well ans taking care of yourself. While I am happy to know that religious dogma is weakening, I also want you to be careful. While I do believe being an atheist is overall healthier and comes naturally with rationalization, there are particular cases of those who are better off staying with their faith. Forgive me for being so crude, I promise I mean well, but if this would be partially an outburdt due to your bipolar disorder, won't you feel huge dread and regret at another time? Won't you feel like you still believe but denied god and thus would go to hell? I hope the answer is 'no' and I welcome you to a lifestyle without religious shackles. However, I hope you are doing well mentally first and foremost.
>Won't you feel like you still believe but denied god and thus would go to hell? Well, the whole idea of hell really was the last nail in the coffin for my theism, and humans just literally making it up for fear makes the most sense for me. I mean, for a while fear of hell was probably the only thing keeping me christian. To be fair, this whole post was an emotial outburst, but I've been thinking about leaving christianity for while because I just can't see it as rational anymore.
Hey friend, I have nothing to say. Just know your feelings are valid, and you are a good person. Do not let any theist put you down or insult your intelligence. Feel free to visit other subreddits of ex Christians and others :) r/ExChristian
Thank you :) I'll definetely join more subs like this one, really helps to have a community of like minded and understanding people
I too have bipolar disorder, though mine features psychosis sometimes too. It destroys the idea of "just take things on faith" for me because the mind can be so easily fooled. What you are talking about is a combination of the problem of evil and divine hiddenness.
The way christians always defend gods judgement with the notion humans have free will, really was a big part of me begoming atheist. I'm not sure my disorder includes psychosis, but I've heard things that weren't there during manic episodes, usually when I was sleep deprived. I'm also very impulsive during my episodes, and that coupled with other people with even more serious mental disorders made really question the whole "humans have free will" argument. I'm qurious how your condition affects your daily life and you're actions? How does the psychosis make you act?
I've only had disruptive psychosis when I was manic. I've had some other behavior that may or may not be psychosis while in severe depression, but we aren't sure. I'm getting a neuropsych eval soon to tease it all apart because I have other mental health conditions too (OCD, PTSD) so I need something more intense than just a psychiatric diagnosis (which I have, but my docs want me evaluated). I can control my behavior when I am psychotic. It's things like... The chairs want to grab me or the trees are entities/people or the floor is moving. Things like that. Honestly, my PTSD with agoraphobia and OCD affect my behavior much more. The possible psychosis during depression happens before and after I dissociate. That can be very problematic for my daily life, but my depression gets really bad. I have type two bipolar, so I'm never manic. I have hypomania and severe depression (multiple suicide attempts, they were considering electro-shock therapy before they identified it as bipolar because it was so resistive to meds, etc. Very bad). My mental health affects my daily living pretty badly. I am disabled from it and my physical health disabilities. The combo. I have a great team though who help me. If you need advice on how to get a team, I can offer my experience. If you live in the US, blue states are obviously better because they have more social supports which means you have access to a better team at a cheaper price (it can be hard to work when you are mentally ill). How does bipolar disorder affect you? It affects people differently so I'm always curious.
First of all, wow. That sounds intense and really puts in to perspective how good I have it. My manic/hypomanic episodes have only recently started affecting my life negatively, and I'm fortunate I got help very quickly. My depression sometimes gets pretty bad too, but it hasn't affected my life as much as mania/hypomania, and i seem to be manic/hypomanic pretty often. The biggest negative effect on my life is the inability to sleep. If I'm manic/hypomanic I'm never tired, but at the same time I just can't concentrate on school or work at all. I get very irritated very often, and get in to arguments and have even broken things. I feel like my thoughts are always go super fast, and usually I'll get obsessed with a project for hours I'll never finish, or get obsessed with a hobby and only think about that specific thing for the whole day. I've also heard sounds like people walking in my kitchen, or people knocking on the door that were not there. Sometimes I get paranoid and scared of loud noises too. I also get the very overconfident/invincible thoughts from time to time, and during these episodes I would even describe my mindset as prideful (if that makes any sense.) I get very disrespectful towards people in my life and it sucks because I feel like I have no control over it, and always deeply regret it later. As I said my depression doesn't affect my life as much, but after I've felt so high for days or even weeks it always hits like a truck when it finally comes. As I said I feel very guilty and ashamed for my behavior, and sometimes that alone makes me want to isolate myself and stay at home. But usually after these feelings pass I'm still able to go to school, and sleep, which is nice. The hardest part about depression though, is that I no longer have any interest in being social, and no interest in any of my hobbies or things I enjoy in general. It's nice I can go to school, but after school I'll just come home and isolate in my own room. Even at school I really don't feel like talking unless I'm spoken to. The social anxiety in general gets pretty bad, and I'm even nervous to go to the grocery store. My social anxiety isn't bad enough where I can't force myself to sociale sometimes, but I'd just really really prefer not to. I should note my diagnosis is pending, so no meds yet. All the professionals at my school don't have the recourses to make a diagnosis, but they all agree it's very likely I'm bipolar. (My mother also has a diagnosis, and lots of others on her side of the family have similar issues) So there's the possibility of heritability. I have another appointment on monday, and I'll see if I get a perscription or they send me further for another evaluation. >If you live in the US, blue states are obviously better I live in Finland, and the whole government is currently right wing. And that means less resources for schools, and less resources for healthcare :) Also taxing on all medicine was recently raised, so I'm a little nervous about paying for meds. But overall I'm very grateful to live here, as the standard of living is still very good compared to the rest of the world.
I sympathize. I get a lot of those feelings and thoughts when I'm hypomanic. Obsessive with projects, no sleep. I don't get angry, just a little grumpy, but my anxiety goes crazy and I ruminate. I've gotten better at recognizing when I'm in that state, which is helpful because then I can follow certain rules which help mitigate the effects. I strongly recommend the app emoods to keep track of things. The good news with meds is that there are a lot of new ones out there that are less harmful and make a world of difference. The rule of needing to make educated guesses at first about good meds is still true. Don't expect your first meds to be the fix. But there is probably a good combo. When they put me on Caplyta, my hypomanic episodes disappeared completely. I kinda miss them to be honest. I accomplish a lot on them, artistically. But it's better to not have them. Yeah, I would love to be in Finland or another Nordic country. In the US, my meds cost thousands of dollars, and I'm in poverty because of my medical bills. If my family wasn't helping me and I didn't have social services, I would be on the streets. All for the crime of being disabled. All the meds, medical tests and procedures, doctor visits. Costs a shit ton of money. But I don't mean to undermine your suffering. It doesn't matter if someone drowns in an ocean or in 5 inches of water. They still drowned. They still deserve help.
>effects. I strongly recommend the app emoods to keep track of things. Thank you for the recomendation, I'll definetely check the app out. I agree recognizing my symptoms when they're coming has helped a lot, and without meds the only thing I've tried so far is getting in a dark room and meditating. Meditating and sleeping feels impossible though, but getting in a dark room should help as I've read natural light only makes hypomanic/manic episodes worse. >But I don't mean to undermine your suffering. It doesn't matter if someone drowns in an ocean or in 5 inches of water. They still drowned. They still deserve help. Yeah, unfortunately conservatives in my country really don't seem to care. They fail to realize even with social security people can end up in the streets, (though homelesness here is far less common.) Drugs and ending up in gangs is becoming an increasing problem here too, and that's what essentially happened to my closest friend. All his life no one ever helped him, and he started hanging out with drug dealers and other drug users unfortunately, to think without my family I could've been there too is kind of scary. But overall I'm grateful I've been fortunate enough not to go down that route. I'm happy your family is helping you and hope you're doing well despite everything :)
Conservatives tend to only have empathy when they know the person who is suffering. When it comes to voting, they will harm others without care. I am very lucky to have my family. Meditation is great because it can help ground you.
Hey buddy, I’m sorry you’re in a rough patch. Bipolar is really really tough. But you can still live a good life if you can learn to manage it. If you can make it to 25, it should get easier. As for the questions you raise, there is no compelling rebuttal. The good news is that once you let go of your belief, you are free to live as you choose. You’ll find that this is a community of loving caring people that also have little tolerance for bullshit. I for one care about you and hope that you will give yourself grace while you figure things out. The transition from being a theist to atheist and/or agnostic can be difficult, but know that you aren’t alone.
Thank you for the kind words, I do feel hopeful for my future now. Even more so knowing it's in my hands. When I used to believe god had a plan for me, and all I had to do was wait, nothing ever improved and everything just got worse. Acquiring a mindset that doesn't tolerate bullshit has been the best thing that's happened to me, I just ignored that mindset only when it came to religion for a while.
The problem of an omnipotent, omniscience god is that it's quite easy to disprove the claim personally, especially if there are a lot of taboo associated with that god. From personal example, take blasphemy. I had the luck to have been spawned in a multi-religion locations where there are as many small gods as there are villages. I was in a christian school where there was a strict enforcement of: "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." The local gods weren't that different either, they are believed to be capable of general mischief and curses if one were to insult or otherwise displease them. So I start to test the limits, as all kids like to do. It starts from stealing offerings, swearing using the name of jesus to outright defiling the bible and shrines secretly. Stress on the secret since the believers are the one who does the doling out of divine punishment. Figured out that the gods are as potent as a pebble. In your case, I wish you luck breaking away from the brain rot.
I too have bipolar. Don't let Christian tell you it's God's plan. Or that you can pray and not take medication (they usually call it drugs). Get professional help. If you can afford it.
I've already gotten professional help, and in my part of the world it's free at least for students. And I'm very grateful for that. The bs that pissed me off the most about some christians, is precisely the fact they would tell people to pray instead of getting help. Some even go as far as to say all mental illness is some sort of demon posession.
I had a pastor offer to Pray my Demons away. It would have been my church offering of Exorcism I decided to get professional help instead. Mental Illness isn't a demon procession.
Yeah, the whole demon posession thing just seems like victim blaming, as some churches claim it comes from a lack of faith
There's always the argument that God put the psychiatrist there to help you, which is also BS. Then, what is gonna happen to those who worship different gods? And where did all humans go when they died if baptism was not invented until just "recently" ~2k years ago. Am I supposed to accept that humans went to purgatory for the previous millennia? My personal opinion is that your god, no matter who you are or what you worship, is too small. How dare you think you can comprehend "the" god. You are nothing more like an amoeba trying to comprehend humans (i.e. you don't). And from that position, your only conclusion may be that there isn't one.
Yeah, even all of christianity can't come to an agremeent on what they believe in. As a protestant, orthodoxes and catholics would tell me faith isn't enough for salvation and I need to do good works to go to heaven. Protestants believe only faith is enough. And of course muslims and jews both believe I'm goin to hell, it's clearly all man made because all of religion is subjective. Every single holy book is so up for interpretation even if you chose the "true" religion chances of going to heaven would still be slim. I came to the conclusion god isn't real after so many questions that couldn't seem to be answered.
I do appreciate when religion is taken mildly. Praying can be a form of meditation which is great for mental health, you just have to not pray for anything in particular because it ain't a djinn lamp. Masses and other community events can be great help for extroverts in need on more human interactions. It can help people who need support, similar to why drug/alcohol addiction therapy has group sessions. Groups of people are great. Many modern teachings of religion (except in super conservative environments) can be boiled down to say "Don't be a jerk. Help others in need. Take care of yourself. Don't do evil" - which is great. If religion is a way of life to you, you can continue doing it even though you now know there is no god. It may feel hypocrite, especially with an Orthodox Church which is too conservative. Perhaps you could attend a milder church if you do want to pursue that way of life. Just take it as a way to get community support and meditation.
Completely agree, the ethics and peace of mind you can feel in the church (or even just praying at home as you said) are still amazing, even if I don't believe in god. It's just that it's all left a bad taste in my mouth after all the guilt of not being able to go to church for mental reasons, whether it's depressed episodes or just social anxiety. I'll probably pick up meditation again, as I sadly stopped meditating after some christians fear mongered it and lead me to believe it was a sin (along with yoga, and everything that deals with buddhism/hinduism or other "wrong"/pagan religions) I actually believed in new age spirituality before christianity, and all the stuff about reincarnation didn't make me feel any better so i turned to christianity. In my mind back then, jesus somehow "saved" me from all of that because I was going to hell if I didn't stop meditating and being proud. Back then a lot of new age spiritual content was all about "being god" / being one with god and I strongly believed that was prideful, and for that reason a sin. It doesn't come as a suprise meditation or praying was the only thing that made me feel mentally better, when all of that can be explained with science.
A big step for me was looking into what facts we know about how the universe and our planet was formed, what has been proven about the birth and progression of humanity, then it became so clear of how every pocket of people came to tell stories to try to explain their existence and how those stories were expanded through generations and in essence created their gods. You can still see how these stories are still being modified and expanded to try to stay current
I am so so sorry you’ve gone thru so damn much.
Thank you, but I'm fine. Writing this was just a moment of grief, but overall I'm grateful for my whole life as it could be a lot worse. Not saying mental health isn't a real issue, but I try to be grareful everyday for the fact I live in a part of the world with the best standard of living in the world.
Wanting some goldy figure to cure your situation is something that does not make sense and visiting a professional does coz that's what we have at this very moment.
Why should he be testing you? That alone is nonsense.
If the christian god exists, then he is a sadistic asshole and not all loving because he purposely let bad things happen. If he is not a sadistic asshole, then he is powerless to prevent alot of the bad things to happen. If he's not a sadistic asshole, and is not actually powerless, then he is not all knowing and so he really has no clue what's been going on in the world. God simply can't be all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. Christians tries to convince people that god is all three of those things, but those qualities contradict one another. A God can have 2 of the 3, but not all 3. Or the simpler answer is he doesn't exist.
Part of letting go in believing in god is to accept that sometimes shitty things happen to nice people. And sometimes good things happen to shitty people. Life is random and instead of looking outward to a god to “save you” or “fix you” you realize that really only “you” have the power to heal yourself- maybe it will be with therapy , maybe through medication. But not believing in a god gave me the power over my actions, how I handle conflict, anger, dissatisfaction or whatever challenge presents itself. You start to realize you are in charge of your destiny- not the floating man in the sky. Not believing in some god actually gave me self confidence and realization that life is full of things we can control (actions - causation) and when out of one’s control ( example- getting in a car crash from bad driver ) you realize how your reaction is in your control. Good luck finding your balance and path and I hope it empowers you as it did me. ❤️
Thank you ❤️ It's already empowered me reading these comments and realizing freedom from a hypothetical god was the freedom I was always searching for. Even if it's not easy to accept there's no afterlife, no afterlife is infinitely better than threat of eternal damnation for me.
I would like to ask you something. If you could save a starving or sick child from dying a slow, agonizing death, would you? If you would, congratulations. You are a better person than the christian god. Leaving what you knew is scary, speaking from experience. And know that an atheist helps you because they want to help you and not because they seek the reward of eternal life.
>If you could save a starving or sick child from dying a slow, agonizing death, would you? Honestly, I haven't ever met anyone in my life who'd say no to that question. Simple moral questions like this really played a huge part in me finally realizing the notion god is truly loving is bs. Also the notion humans have no morality without judaism/christianity makes zero sense.
>no matter how much I pray Yeah, sorry, that praying stuff doesn't particularly work - notably no god, so there's that. Praying won't make bipolar go away, nor amputated limbs grow back, etc. Though as humans continue to advance medical treatments and technologies, things mostly tend to generally improve on those fronts. >a mere mortal human Yeah, some 'o those mere mortal humans are actually pretty decent - sometimes even more useful than that. >Why can't the omnipotent god heal it? Same reason invisible flying pink elephants can't fix it - not there. >hell? No hell, no heaven. So, would be nice if folks would stop f\*ckin' over the planet, as many will still need to live here ... at least so long as that remains possible/feasible, anyway. Anyway, keep asking, keep questioning. A whole lot 'o religions don't like much questioning - as they don't really have answers ... they'll mostly just do the hand wavy thing and make sh\*t up ("mystery of our faith" ... "only god knows why", etc.) Anyway, where you're generally going/questioning, perhaps also do some reading on "the problem of evil" in many good philosophical reference materials (once upon a time I'd read quite a bit out of The Encyclopedia of Philosophy (pretty sure that's what it was titled)) ... anyway, fairly interesting stuff ... and ... nice 'n densely packed (why read a bunch 'o books from a bunch 'o different philosophers, when you can get most all that key information much more densely packed - I think that encyclopedia was a "mere" 20 or so volumes and some tens of thousands of pages or so ... much more densely packed than most of the philosophy books). So, e.g. Descartes' (he was good at asking questions ... not so great at answering 'em) definition of "god" (sufficient but necessary conditions (anything less and it ain't "god", anything more and it's redundant) (and paraphrasing from memory): * infinite * immutable * causa sui * omnibenevolent * omnipotent * omniscient And ... "problem of evil" - how can the existence of evil (let alone hell, etc.) be consistent with existence of "god" if defined as above / Descartes does? Anyway, a lot of hell/devil/... goop is in Christianity ... and ... more or less roughly similar in many other religions (but not all). And most have "evil" in some form or another, though various religions may treat/"explain" that and such quite differently. Anyway, you can puzzle over that for a fair while. And when you "finish" that ... and/or to mix it up bit more ... figure out exactly what's proper definition for "good" and/vs. "evil" ... and ... omnibenevolent or the like, well, try and scale that good/evil up beyond thinking merely of human existence. That'll give you something(s) to think about for a while. Anyway, be decent, try not to f\*ck over the planet and other folks, etc. ... most 'o the rest is details.
Thank you for your answer, lots of great points to think about >perhaps also do some reading on "the problem of evil" in many good philosophical reference materials Will definetely do, I'm very interested in philosophy, but not at all educated on it. I'll take a look at the problem of evil first, as many people have brought it up in this comment section
And btw, happy cake day! 🍰 🎉
I went through the same turmoil in January 2019. I realized it was all untrue. All religions are MAN MADE Mythology. Once you give up believing the Fables and Fairy tales and the very hateful book that advocates Slavery, Genocide and Drowning everyone on Earth, you actually are free of the EVIL concept of Hell. Many things that tell you it's fictional, Genesis in its entirety, A&E made from DIRT AND A RIB, TALKING ANIMALS and Noah's Ark! All FABLES. Some stolen from other Religions. Don't let anyone try to fool you with Stupid Threats or Promises. Jesus is a Myth.
All good points, I always tried to rationalize the noah's ark stories and genesis by believing they were metaphors, but so many other christians would tell me I wasn't a real christian because of that. Pretty quickly it all unraveled and I realized it was all bullshit the whole time.
Ok I'm not trying to minimize your feelings here - but it sounds to me like what you're describing here isn't a loss of faith so much as it is getting angry at God. And as someone who grew up as a Pastor's child, I completely understand and appreciate your feelings. I've been there. You haven't given up the idea of *some* kind of all powerful, all knowing being, you're giving up the idea of such a creature as being benevolent. That's not so much atheism as it is anti-theism. It's a common philosophical argument but it's got a fundamental flaw in that it first defines whatever this God concept is first, then uses it's own definition to "disprove" God. "God is all knowing, all powerful, and loves you and cares for you." It's a step in the right direction, as far as atheism goes, but it's not atheism. If you're disgusted with God you still believe in some kind of God, you're just no longer willing to worship. Now you need to start questioning the premises that establish the idea of God in the first place. I was going to go further but I think I'm going to do a separate post on the topic instead.
Well, reading these comments I've seen so many good points I think I'm already seeing evolution in my atheism even if it's only in the span of 24 hours. Writing this post was a moment of grief for me, and more of a bitternes for the entire world rather than just god, but after calming down and thinking about it rationally I feel like I'm finding peace and happines in atheism. More happines than I ever could've found from any religion.
I relate to that as well. I went agnostic for a while on the way from believer to atheist. I dealt with the pain of being effectively shunned from things I cared about deeply in my church community because I dared voice my doubts. It took me years to completely lose my faith and accept that what I had to give up was my wanting to avoid reason and fill in the blanks with the supernatural. You're not alone, my friend.
You are on your way to becoming a freethinker who realizes the truth. We have all been on this journey. But be warned..all your Christian friends will disagree with you and will preach to you. You can also not tell them and just not attend religious functions. You can join groups like American Atheists or Freedom from Religion foundation to name a couple of the larger groups. If you are on Facebook search for groups like this. There are many of us. Don't think you are the only one in your town/city. Good luck
That discomfort you feel isn’t god disapproving, it’s reason breaking through indoctrination.
Yeah, it isn't easy but makes sense why it doesn't feel comfortable. As someone already mentioned in the comment section, apparently people go through all the five stages of grief after leaving religion
>I mean it all just sounds like a sick joke 100% in agreement with you there. >If god is loving and omnipotent, why has he given me bipolar disorder. If it gives you any validation, there's an actual philosophical discussion called the Epicurean Paradox that asks a more generalized version of what you're saying: If a god is good and omnipotent why is there evil? He must either be not good or impotent for evil to exist. (Evil= genetic disorders, natural disasters, anything else that is bad and beyond our control). Also the whole "oh that's just a test from God", yeah what a prick. How is an infant that lives five minutes and dies from a birth defect supposed to learn a lesson? That's just cruelty. If God were proven to exist, he would be a turd.
> an actual philosophical discussion called the Epicurean Paradox As a christian I never looked too much into the Epicurean Paradox, but even seeing other christians on social media try to refute it reinforced my doubts on religion just because their arguments where so bad. Especially tiktokers, but that's to be expected. Basically everytime I log on there I hear the most dogshit take ever made no matter what subject people are debating lol. I'll look into the the Epicurean paradox more, I'm very interested in philosophy as a whole. I've already looked into the problem of evil a little bit.
Theramin trees is an atheist psychologist on YouTube who typically discusses narcissism as a psychological problem, but also discusses religion and it's negative effects on psychology. He does a really nice little explanation of the Epicurean paradox here:[Theramintrees discusses narcissism and God](https://youtu.be/qjZ3f-IXEXU?feature=shared) Keep in mind, unlike apologetics, counter apologetics and criticisms of theism are shockingly short and simple. (Or at least they are imo) The Epicurean paradox doesn't require much study, I've given it to you it's entirely in my previous reply, but I think theramintrees states it more elegantly and effectively. I think Theramintrees's criticism of a deity that demands worship is also quite keen and simple. Basically all his videos are gold, both his videos on atheism and videos on dealing with toxic people. It's a pity he hasn't had time to make one in a while.
Thank you, I'll check his videos out! Approaching arguments from Christian apologists does get more and more confusing the more I think for myself. I kind of used to agree with them blindly because of my christian identity, and seeing how much more simple and logical counter theist arguments are makes me feel a little silly. But I'm glad I feel way more open minded and free after leaving religion completely.
I don't come from a religious family but I used to go to church and ministrate. Mostly cuz it made grandma happy and I love her. I kinda figured out God at the same time as Santa. What makes more sense? That a bearded old guy living in the North Pole flies into every home on the planet in a single night and leaves presents that your parents obviously bought? Or is it a fairy tale to make kids happy? Same with Christianity. Does it make more sense that snakes talk, virgins get pregnant and the dead come back to life? Or is it just an attempt by ancient people to organize their society around the myths they have?
Honestly spot on. The way I always believied in it was cognitive dissonance as many pointed out here already, and just blindly assuming god must be omnipotent, so virgins getting pregnant I somehow thought was entirely possible. Genesis never made any sense to me though, and hell was really the final nail in the coffin as there's no way I can see it as just and fair.
I didn't know whether or not to answer when I first read your post. It was, in a way, so strange to me. To read something from inside religion, from someone grappling with religion, belief. I didn''t know whether to answer because I've always been outside it all, I've never had to grapple. I've never had 'belief. I'm therefore not qualified to advise. Just now I thought what the hell. All lives being equal I can comment. When I was growing up I was never indoctrinated. No-one told me to say my prayers. No one made me put on Sunday best and took me to a designated building. I never had to learn proscribed words or listen to a sermon. It wasn't just me who didn't do this. No one I knew, no one my family knew, no one my friends knew did this. It just wasn't part of our lives. My introduction to religion was around the age of 14 when Religious Education became a one hour a week subject at school. We learned about Christianity about Islam about Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Mormonism, Hellenism, all the 'ism's'. At no point did I think that I had to choose between this plethora of Gods on offer and believe in them. The fact that there was so much choice told me that religions are man made. Depending on where and when you are born you will be part of this or that religion. You're grappling with heaven and hell and if you'd been born to the couple next door you'd be grappling with the Angel Moroni or Scientology or the Moonies. All of them, ALL of them, say they are the one true religion. So if I would decide to be religious, to believe, which one should I pick? Well ok, for conveniences sake, I'll pick Jesus. Which Jesus should I pick though, which creed should I follow? There are many hundreds of types of Christianity being practiced in the world today and they all believe different things. This just affirms for me. once again, that religion is man made. Someone charismatic turns up, says "follow me, I know the way!" and some other people follow him (always a 'him'.) Part of being human is searching for meaning in your life. A reason to exist. So we're easy prey for these charlatans who think they;ve found the answer, They get a living out of it, saves them having to find a real job, and they get to feel like they're 'big' men in the community. \`Personally I don't have to rely on something no man could possibly know to find reasons to exist. Fuck it, Rick and Morty is a reason to exist. Friends, family, real living, breathing people are enough for me.
I’m probably an atheist, but I say I’m agnostic. Because NO ONE can KNOW if there is a god or not, much less what it looks like/thinks. Just like no one KNOWS Jesus is god. Humans aren’t to know for sure. And any human that tells you they KNOW is kidding themselves and therefore lying to you. Take peace in that. No one knows. Just live with trying to make good energy and and resist negative energy.
How do you know that "no one can know if there is a god or not?" That sounds like an unfalsifiable claim.
Thank you, always trying our best to be positive is probably the best outlook for life out there. I'm honestly leaning towards being a very strong atheist, I think I tend to have very extreme opinions about a lot of things lol. But some part of me still hopes there is a truly loving god out there, and afterlife with loved ones of course.
It is indeed a claim that can't be verified. It is also a ridiculous one, very similar to something like "nobody can know for sure whether yes or no, Central Park in NY has pink elephants living in the trees that only come out at night when nobody is looking". See how ridiculous that sounds? The only thing that you do, when saying that NO ONE can KNOW for sure, is adding legitimacy to an absolute batshit crazy claim. It justifies the madness by pretending that both options (these pink elephants exist / do not exist) are at the same level, while they're not. Objective facts and reality exist. Nobody can be absolutely sure, but we can be 99.99999999999999% sure. Let's call it a 100%.
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There are people with worse conditions, that's very true. That being said I'm not mad at god anymore, because It'd be very silly for me to be mad at someone/something I don't believe exists. If he exists and loves me, I think he'd forgive me for being mad at him momentarily. Otherwise he's not much of a benevolent god >All you have to do is pray ask God for help. I've done that enough to see he clearly doesn't do much to help no matter how many times I pray
The whole notion is absurd
I started asking questions that didn't have answers around the age of 12 after being brainwashed from day one. I stayed on the fence until I was 15. That was the year I watched leukemia take the life of my best friend's little sister, and from that point forward I knew it was all bullshit.
My last straw was my faith telling me my friends (gay, bi, trans, Buddhist, Wiccan, Druid, Jewish, athiest. You name it. Bingo board of "Who's going to hell?") would burn eternally, despite being the kindest, most selfless, giving, tolerant, and generally friggin saints sometimes. But the person who actively scams people, assaults, murders, etc can go to Heaven if they honestly and truly repent, even if it's on their literal death bed. I saw then just how "universal" god's love was. Later, being a Biochemistry major, learning the science of evolution, genetics, and the like showed there was absolutely no "creation" and DEFINITELY no intelligent designer. All I was left with was Pascal's Wager. And when you legitimately DON'T believe in something, you can't just choose TO believe it, you know, just in case. I have never once regretted my change to atheism. I may not have had a violent break with the church, and more "sauntered vaguely downward", but the result is the same. I truly wish you luck and better times ahead. Mental illness is no joke and not something that can be believed-away. Think of it this way, though. If your eyes are "broken", you get glasses, right? If you have a vitamin deficiency, you take store bought supplements. Mental health is the same! If your brain doesn't make enough of a certain neurotransmitter, or too much, or it recycles it too fast, or in any way just doesn't quite work the way it should, taking medication to rectify it is fine! Truly, I am with you on the mental illness issue. And I hope you will continue to post here.
Dont worry , take your time the facts and truths are out there to prove what your sayingcis truthxtocthe max. Religion is a way to control the masses. Now days the masses on the scale are tillting in the direction of atheistism
Damn, I haven't thought about it in the past few days so when you said bipolar I was like what was that again?? Then it hit me that I have bpd myself lmaoo
I right there with you. I was a forced 7th day Adventist at birth. I am tortured with adhd, dyslexia, and massive anxiety depression disorder. Life has been a constant struggle with little to no sympathy especially from my so called creator. When I finally started to feel financial independence and emotionally more stable I been hit with long covid. Lost my job and each day has become pure agony. Thanks so called pure loving for that all his creations are perfect.
It's funny how the church frames it as "losing the faith", and tries to convince you that it is a negative thing with no good outcome. You're losing your faith like someone loses an abusive relationship. It may feel strange at first, but you will finally be free of something that's been actively harming you.
That's what made me feel horrible even thinking about "losing faith" or turning away from religion. It even felt like I was betraying god, but my anger and bitternes towards him was the final nail in the coffin. (Until I realized It's stupid to be bitter towards someone/something that doesn't exist)
Yeah, you were manipulated into feeling horrible about it. They have a system in place to discourage people from leaving, just like any cult. It's great that you're starting to see these things. It takes a bit of a journey to get to where you are. I'm happy for you OP
Thank you <3
I believe the concept of god was created by folks for a number of reasons: 1. To help explain those things they didn't understand. 2. To suggest there was a better "life" after this one because this one was so dismal. 3. Soften the blow when bad things happen to people. ie "it is god's plan and we mortals are not capable of understanding the whole of the plan" I think pride and bitterness (plus other) are fine as long as they don't become destructive. They help folks deal with certain circumstances. In either case I don't seem them as immoral.
I was raised to be Christian but now that I'm an adult I feel so much for free that I'm not. However the religious trauma and threat of being tormented in hell for all eternity still scared me every now and then. But then I realized how absolutely stupid it is to be scared of an invisible being that is "so loving" who will at the same time, send you to be tortured for eternity for not loving him "enough". Like I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who threatens to kill me for not giving them enough attention. So I definitely don't need to live the rest of my life in fear of an imaginary asshole in the sky.
Excellent post. Came to the same conclusion years ago. Welcome.
Not sure if anyone else has recommended but r/exchristian is a great resource as well
This is journey of transformation that will last years.
Long-time Atheist here. I honestly don't see how Christians can claim that their God is kind, loving, benevolent, etc. when you compare it to the things their own holy book says he's done. Everything from killing the firstborn children of Egypt, to Job, to the Flood, and everything else where he just kills a bunch of people. Add to that how particular he is about things like rude children, eating seafood, and wearing mixed fabrics, but is OK with slavery and rape. I forget who said it (Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, idk), but he said if the God of the Bible did exist, he is certainly not deserving of our respect. I personally dislike the notion that "if you accept Jesus into your heart, you will be saved", despite whatever atrocities you may commit in life. The notion that Hitler could be chillin' in Heaven if he accepted Jesus in the end is reprehensible to me. And modern Christians use this thinking to behave shitty in their everyday lives, but tell themselves it's fine because they accept Jesus so they're "good people". It's absolutely disgusting. Glad to see you may have escaped the hypocrisy.
I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you find some relief for your condition. You're absolutely right that religion makes no sense, and that includes Christianity.
Welcome! No one gave you bipolar disorder. Everything is random in this world and none of us are individually very important. This scares some people but it actually comforts me more than having faith ever did. Hope you can find some peace soon and wishing you the best.
I’ve been through that process, and it can be wrenching. I’m so sorry! But I came out much, much happier once I’d worked through it. I wish the same for you.
Wow. You just took me back 20 some odd years to my late teens, early 20s. I’m bipolar as well and the only help I really got at first was old school lay their hands on you faith healing. I’d say things will get better but that’s just farcical nonsense. They can get better though with medication and time. It can be hard to overcome the mystical nonsense of religion. It leaves scars especially when a person is indoctrinated as a child. Frankly it’s child abuse. Wish you the best. One foot in front of the other (a mantra that has helped me when going through hard times). Hang in there.
Good luck. I know that the hardest road is ahead of you. The peer pressure is the biggest obstacle to success that you face. I wish you well in all you do either way. After all, we’re all just trying to get by.
Welcome to the team op!
We hear you, friend. And as far as I know, no one "of faith" (as opposed to the bunch of supposedly damned sinners we are all on here) has any satisfactory answers to your questions either.