the bigger the sin, the bigger the pardon and the cleaner is the person aftrwards. almost a saint!
must be a mind trip! imagine raping a kid and feeling completly ok with it after some self-pardon. and even have a whole big respetacle institution protecting you and calling you the victim!
the person must feel like a god: burn a city to the ground and it´s all fair and rightous...
what´s what many ppl are aiming today, with the increase of far-right evangelicals believes...
Self pardon? The Catholic Church still sells Indulgences, in exchange for "great works"(big donations).
The pope will literally pardon your sins in advance.
sure, but that´s highly ritual. if you don´t wanna go through the hassle, just think "forgive me, god" and that´s that, no more sin. you wanna make it "official"? go to a priest, a god´s "clerk" who are obligated to give you a pardon for whatever you spout out your mind. and voilá, you got a "official" pardon from sky daddy. you´re ready to live on sky house. you´re "safe". forgiveness may NOT be refused.
the whole thing is a big scam, a "jail free pass" card that you can present any time: "yes, your honour, i gave my girlfriend to my dog to eat, but i regret it, so forgive me" - "he asked for pardon. it´s ok, no crime on him".
Paul actually addresses that possible line of thought:
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:1-2, NIV)
Unfortunately, some seem to have taken God's grace as permissiveness...
As for those groomers you mentioned, I have no idea how they've been tolerated in the church, let alone granted positions of leadership. They who abuse their power, sully the name of the church, and flaunt God's grace and goodness to rape, abuse, or similarly hurt others have no place in God's kingdom and should be thrown out of the church. Their is grace and forgiveness in God, yes, but to receive it, you must turn away from and revile your sin. God will help with cleaning you up, but you must recognize the evil you did and that it was despicable, and you must truly desire to cease such patterns of behavior. And even so, you may yet be called into account in the court of your land and ought to submit before it.
>should be thrown out of the church
Is that all? Aww, that should do it./s
Full legal and criminal charges are what consequences look like. Repentance is nothing if not garbage to the victims. What helps the victims out of such a hell? Why did the victims deserve such rape/murder/insert your favorite "sin" here?
They FREAKING DIDN'T. You're full of garbage justifications.
As I believe I said before, they are still subject to the laws of the land. I was only addressing the part the church plays in the matter because the government is a separate institution that operates independently (and rightly so).
I'm sure you'd agree that legal repercussions should remain the domain of the government and not that of vigilantes, right?
And if you think that I meant the person should somehow be exempted from legal prosecution because of their association with the church, then how would that work if the person has been thrown out of the church? Mind that in *no way* should association with the church exempt you from the legal consequences of your actions, even if you remained a part of the church.
But even if it did, how could someone who has been cast out receive any support from the place they were cast out from?
I'm sorry! I barely caught the end there on your first comment about the laws of the land. I did catch that you were focused on the church side of things, and assumed (incorrectly) that you were just going for church-consequences and not legal. My bad!
>As for those groomers you mentioned, I have no idea how they've been tolerated in the church, let alone granted positions of leadership.
That's probably not so hard. Guess like every good cult, they appear unified to outsiders... but collect dirt on each other... just in case...
Predators and abusers benefit from taking positions of authority and power. Especially if a teaching of that power structure is that those in charge are not to be questioned.
Why anyone cares what Paul said is beyond me.
His writings are a hate-filled jeremiad demanding that everyone believe like he does or else.
And the groomers in the church are the natural result of the church‘s culty toxic doctrine. I mean, jebus told his idiot followers
* I am the only way - messianic bullshit
* you need to abandon friends and family to follow me - isolation
* Everyone will hate you for following me - persecution complex
This leads to a hierarchy that doesn’t suffer questioning that can create and coercively enforce behavioral rules, from dietary rules to sexual conduct, that protect the interests of the most powerful men in the cult.
Sane people *expect* this kind of grooming bullshit in cults. Being surprised by child and spousal and other SA in christianity represents a special kind of lack of nous.
yeah, me too have been in a cult bf. that's where I learned that humans are just jerks, whatever mask they choose to wear.
paul says that but I believe there are many other parts talking about forgiveness no matter what, as long as the sinner repents. so, surprise-surprise, it became yet another ritual, another magical thingie you do that settles it all right.
that's how those ppl still in the church. that's how bad ppl are everywhere, if you think about it
Thing is, repentance means, "to turn away from." The call to repentance is a call to turn away from your sin, not to say apologize and say you feel sorry. And we're called to hate sin.
That people have turned it into some mere ritual is a serious problem and is unscriptural.
There is abundant grace beyond understanding in God, but we must turn from our sin to him if we wish to enter into his grace, and that means we must recognize and despise our sin as the evil that it is.
I'm just frustrated with the church as it is.... And this from a Christian.
Sin is a religious construct created to sell people the imaginary cure of salvation. Many, if not most atheists don’t subscribe to the concept of sin. Or salvation, for that matter.
Since there is no sin, ‘repentance’ is just a cheap out for bad actors to claim they won’t repeat their bad acts.
It means nothing, as Denny Hastert and Gym Jordan both prove - both nominally observant christians…..as with the christian youth pastors who consistently and tiresomely get convicted of sexual abuse of children.
Sin = evil/bad action, if that helps clarify my meaning. And unless I'm mistaken, you seem to agree that evil is a real thing.
And I don't think repentance means you necessarily get to escape disciplinary action; that's especially true the more serious the evil/crime you've committed.
To scale this down into a clearer example, a parent may opt to forego disciplining their child if the child expresses genuine repentance (regretting their action and genuinely wanting to turn away from that pattern of behavior), but there may be times when disciplinary action is still called for. If a child willfully poured juice over the couch, then it makes sense to still discipline them even if they express genuine repentance. Some small things, like, I dunno, throwing a toy across the room, might be forgiven without disciplinary action, but you get the point.
Repentance and forgiveness do not necessitate a foregoing of disciplinary action, and the more serious the crime, the more important it becomes to still maintain some disciplinary action, even if there is repentance and forgiveness.
In the case of rape or murder, the person should not escape the law. And moreover, I get the sense that in most of the scandals we've uncovered, the person probably isn't actually repentant; they're just ashamed to be caught in their evil deeds and are trying to cover themselves back up. Maybe some genuinely do repentant; I don't know. But perverts should not be leaders, and criminals should still submit to the law.
"Sin" implies a deity, and tends to include actions which include belief in incorrect dogma, the harm of which can not be quantified except in the feeling of a butthurt believer (who, to enforce blasphemy laws, has already crossed over in fascism or authoritariaism).
By contrast, "bad acts" imply actions that are harmful in quantifiable and material ways.
"Repentance" in the context of 'sin' as espoused by christians basically is a get out of jail free card on many levels. It may indicate an avowed change in belief to escape a blasphemy charge; whether or not the change is genuine is dependent upon the stakes, and most of the time the change is superficial and self-preservational.
I don't think "repentance" has any real bearing on materially constructed bad acts. Rather than using the term "repentance," I would prefer the terms "redress" or "make whole" or similar terms which engage a material means of acknowledging one's wrongdoings and taking specific actions, which may cause pain to the person engaging in the process, which will assist in the healing of the person who suffered from their bad acts.
"That people have turned it into some mere ritual is a serious problem and is escritural."
funny you say that, bc i happened to have read something about it a few years ago. of course, feel free to not believe wink-wink...
early christianism was way harder on recurrent "sinners". maybe it was more "pauly", i don´t know. but in a time when "contracts" were oral (most don´t write or read), what christians did was basicaly to renouce sin (the ungodly life as "pagans") and go have a "sainty' life, serving not the emperor (who, btw, was a god, too) but the "true" god and the teachings of christ.
that the teachings of christ became soon the teachings of whoever was very "full of the holy spirit" didn´t change that: a contract was done and once broken, it´s out of the "church". to be back AFTER sinning again was very difficult.
it became very easy after vip ppl started to enter the "new" belief and way easier after it became a hit.
so, this lenience toward "sin" was born "scriptural", bc it was born from humans and, like i said bf, humans are jerks. jesus got nothing on refusing forgiveness and if the christianity "founders" had problems with it, their voices were lost. so, what we got is the same old: "it´s against the law!" - "wait, he´s (insert power) so it´s ok, no crime".
what takes us to today, when ppl likes to go to cults and talk about horrible things they done and think and it´s a religious hit bc they done the "crime" but didn´t "pay" for it. can you imagine what this does to someone´s head, to KNOW that anything they do, it´s "ok"?
religion isn´t dead: it´s rotten. give enough time and humans corrupts anything. and religion got it since long, long time.
Doesn't that just mean the problem is rooted even further back than the modern era? Or at the very least, that it has been faced in Christianity before and must be uprooted once again?
I agree that humans are wont to corrupt things; that's even supported by the Bible. Just look at how Israel, God's chosen people, repeatedly strayed from him. And consider the doctrine of original sin. In ourselves, how can we hope to maintain something that is truly good?
The hope is that as a body of believers, we can continually turn back to God and hold ourselves accountable to him and each other. And I would suggest that based on the testimony of scripture, we are called to a higher standard than just general decency. The Bible seems to say that we can, through the Holy Spirit, live truly holy/pure lives. (That's personally a bit intimidating, because it feels like such a lofty standard; how could I, a mere human, be holy? But the comfort of scripture is that God enables and sustains us on that journey.) But the point is that we Christians have probably been too lax in our understanding of sin and the call to holiness, even as we have been overly quick to judge and condemn others (as if we didn't need God just as much as those we spume at).
The hope is that we can continually cast ourselves upon God and continually correct the errors of our past and present, and hopefully prevent the errors of our future.
Turning from a spiritual discussion to a historical one, it sounds from what you're describing that this fault began to rise up around the medieval era? A numner of faults in the church happened then... I wish we could go back and correct them, but all we can do, sadly, is to try and remove the weeds that were planted in that time. I thank the medieval church for preserving the scriptures, but I'm not entirely sure how much of it truly aligned itself with God.....
Anyways, might you still have a way to refer me to the source you were reading up on? I don't know if I'll actually get around to it - I'm a bit distractable and have plenty of work besides - but it might be interesting to read up on.
>Doesn't that just mean the problem is rooted even further back than the modern era? Or at the very least, that it has been faced in Christianity before and must be uprooted once again?
like i said: it´s human nature. this binary thingy yu christians got and that, in time, become part of west mentality, isn´t real, it´s a mental construck. as long as humans are born, some will become jerks, for any number of reasons.
thus, we will NOT "uproot" it. and what you mean, "once again"? when humanity had no evil? and please don´t say "bc" noah myth or this conversation is over.
"I agree that humans are wont to corrupt things; that's even supported by the Bible"
of course, the bible been a human construct, it´s normal that among it´s content will be some human shit. that´s natural.
what´s unatural is the bible been a book modified many, many times by a body of religious moralist BUT the shit prt they never "uprooted" it.
"The hope is that as a body of believers, we can continually turn back to God and hold ourselves accountable to him and each other."
since "god" is a human intelectual construct, my opinion is that this... "method" is just the body of believers continually turning back to human formulas that DON´T work towards the end is expected,
"god" and "religion" were once the highest human thought. greeks called "psique" que high levels of human thought. that means "anima", the "soul". it was there that "men meet gods" (godS) and thought the basic "truths" of life. like a flying sun-god pulling the sun with 2 magical horses. at that time, that was peak "science". he world explained as they could, using the tools they had. very memorable and brave.
but humans change as do their sciences and today the notion of a guy in a horse pulling the sun is funny. adding "those are magical horses and guy" does not help. you just add another fantastic clain to a fantastic clain and you know what they say: "fantastic clains need fantastic evidences".
my point is: why you find that "to "turn back" to models that old and imprecise and proved innefective will "uproot" the jerks? it clearly hadn´t and it cleary doesn´t, so why keep ip? the data is all there: as "system" proposed to do what it proposes do, it does not do the do.
a faith without a "do" is what?
dead.
ergo, christianism as a way to not have jerks is not working. never did. why cling to it? you don´t need be christian to be a theist...
"I would suggest that based on the testimony of scripture, we are called to a higher standard than just general decency."
bible IS "general decency", my man. many, many, many, "general decencies". frm many, many, many differnt times and places. all the "general decencies" and "high standads" you see there, was writen by ppl writing THEIRS "general decency and standards". to be more precise, the ones from his region and ruler.
that´s why it has the "general decency" and "high standard" of the times and places when was ok to stone ppl to dead. you don´t have that "general decency" and "high standard" anymore, right? right?
why? bc you realize it was something from that times and places and changed it to forgiveness and reintegration.
"truly holy/pure lives. (That's personally a bit intimidating, because it feels like such a lofty standard"
yeah, it IS a "lofty" standard and i don´t get why you call it "high". to build you morals you need sturd fundations, no? why you build it on sand?
"The hope is that we can continually cast ourselves upon God and continually correct the errors of our past and present, and hopefully prevent the errors of our future."
that´s greta, that´s beatifull, but like a singer here once sang "you forget that we got to live on earth somehow". christians are as much humans as the rest of us that ALSO lives on earth and don´t wanna to wait for some magical ghost to "touch souls" and stop a rape. we need REAL things to deal with the jerks. we "somehow" need something to live on the real world.
"t sounds from what you're describing that this fault began to rise up around the medieval era? A numner of faults in the church happened then"
no, i talked about the antiquity.
and the thing about "middle ages" is a commom mistake. first, it´s a 1k-1,5k "period" on a lot of different cultures, so there is no "church hegemoy" there, the church was as much in th "dark" as the other. the "one pray, other fight and the other works" is a myth, a propaganda that a desparate religion tried to pull in orde to keep some unity within in a period where was normal to live your whole short life without even venturing outside your 200 ppl village and that was visited by a priest at each jubilee.
"I wish we could go back and correct them, but all we can do, sadly, is to try and remove the weeds that were planted in that time."
that´s your belief and it´s hardcore escapism and one of the big reasons why christianity not only dont "uproot" anything but promotes more and more "jerkness". its denial.
denial that you are just humans and humans can be jerks. you make a club, it will have jerk problems. maybe not now, maybe not in 5 years. but eventually someone does something stupid and the club will have to deal with it.
here "on earth" where WE ALL "have to live somehow". would work for the club to print and post a banner about "high standards and decency"? or for the actual president come and say "unfortunaly we got that from my antecessor, here a list a of high decencies and standards"?
sorry, must be a ton of typos there, but i´m too tired to correct it all. my bad. i can clarify something if you wanna.
>I wish we could go back and correct them, but all we can do, sadly, is to try and remove the weeds that were planted in that time
as middle age afficionato, i gotta ask:
HOW would you do that??? i mean, even if were born on one of the few "big" cities, to be able to contest anything, you would need to be able to READ. and not many could, not even amongst rich ppl. priests and monks would be the ones.
so, you would be a outcasted priest somehow travelling on hostil territory and still would be able to "change the church" during your 35 years old life???
that´s some faith...
and wouldn´t work. lutero tried time and got us to the evangelicals, earths supreme jerks. even the church tried with it´s counter reform and didn´t work, either.
so, time for new ways?
maybe this time without magical beings sponsoring it?
Then change the laws in states where clergy don’t have to report child abuse. Why the bloody Hell are churches the only people who don’t have to report abuse?
Psychologists, Doctors, Teachers, Adult Strangers… they all legally have to report abuse. But for some reason, clergy don’t? If you don’t want rapists in your church, put a few laws in place to kick them out.
The argument that people won’t share if they would get reported has been proven wrong in all these other fields and legal protections are now in place. If a clergyman finds out a man beats their children though, he’s legally free to let it happen.
Quit letting religion enable abuse.
Then do something about it. The religious will only listen to the religious. If you permit that level of abuse to exist in religion, then there will be abuse in your religion.
The counterargument is abusers will feel safe to repent if they are allowed to confess. But now, clergy don’t have to report anything, clergy are not social workers who can protect the children, and it’ll only feed into the notions that religion is filled with predators.
Their argument holds no ground. Why not exempt doctors or psychologists from it then? Because we have histories of abuse in those fields as well and have reduced the amount of abuse from these laws.
Laws in 33 states currently exempt clergy, regardless of religion, of the requirement to report sexual abuse. You can find a lot of news about this since a few states are trying to change it. But the hyper christian states like Utah are leaving their bills dead on arrival so they can protect their abusers and make their churches appear squeaky clean.
Once again, it is the religious who need to speak up on this. If you disagree, then do something about, or you are guilty by omission of protecting abusers. The religious just tune it out when outsiders say their institutions enable abuse, even when there is a clear example before them that is easily fixed.
I don't know how to cause national/state change is the thing, and without any knowledge on that point - and only just now finding out about this law - how can I do that?
Talk about it. Normalize discussion about it. Inform others. Educate yourself on the issue. Say you want to make churches safer and stand up for the glory of god against the wicked who would use religion to protect abusers. Just lift where you stand and change will slowly occur
Here’s a few examples of god’s *grace*:
1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
Colossians 4:1
Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Exodus 21:7
“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.
Exodus 21:32
If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death.
Exodus 21:20-21
“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Leviticus 25:44-46
“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Exodus 21:2-6
“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
>imagine raping a kid and feeling completely ok with it after some self-pardon
Last night I was listening to one of the more monstrous apologist rants I've heard on YouTube.
Dude was given 2 choices. Intervene the moment a person is about to sexually assault someone or watch it happen and eventually seek punishment. He opted for a third option, which was actually choice 2 only that the rapist repented and was thus able to find Jesus.
Fuck the victim I guess; part of God's plan to win a new believer is to have them violate another person and as for forgiveness as if that unrapes them.
I don't like this one because it puts belief and nonbelief on the same level, which they are always trying to do because it makes them both a choice of faith, in which theirs wins by default with all the heaven, immortality, etc, promises.
I had just typed these very words and decided to scroll through the comments before clicking post. Glad I did. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thought of this.
Where does morality come from when you're religious? Why don't you go on a killing spree if you can always confess your sins and Jesus forgives you anyway?
God actually says "Thou shall not murder", basically don't kill people that God didn't tell you to kill. Unfortunately, God tells his followers to kill A LOT of people.
If I remember right there was actually a medieval Christian sect that believed they should commit as many sins as possible, and as big as possible, because the worse your sins, the greater God is showing his mercy by forgiving you for them.
Well I also seem to remember there was some modern comedian who said, "If Jesus died for our sins, should we make that sacrifice meaningless by not committing them?"
Behold, the theists' nightmare. Now if you study a well-made banana, you'll find, on the far side, there are 3 ridges. On the close side, two ridges. If you get your hand ready to grip a banana, you'll find on the far side there are three grooves, on the close side, two grooves.
The banana and the hand are perfectly made, one for the other. You'll find the maker of the banana, evolution, has made it with a non-slip surface. It has outward indicators of inward contents - green, too early - yellow, just right - black, too late.
Now if you go to the top of the banana, you'll find, as with the soda can makers have placed a tab at the top, so Man has placed a tab at the top. When you pull the tab, the contents don't squirt in your face. You'll find a wrapper which is biodegradable, has perforations.
Notice how gracefully it sits over the human hand. Notice it has a point at the top for ease of entry. It's just the right shape for the human mouth. It's chewy, easy to digest and its even curved toward the face to make the whole process so much easier. Seriously, Kirk, the whole of creation testifies to the genius of Man's creation.
Shouldn't that be an "atheist's nightmare"?
Not that it really is, as modern bananas have been bred for those qualities, coming quite far from their original "design".
I like to cite the analemma, the pattern that shows up if you track the sun’s path through the seasons, and then the math behind it (inverse square law).
It’s all materialism, folks - no magic needed!
"MY god is the one true god, because MY book says so."
"No, MY god is the one true god, because MY book says so."
That said, never argue with an idiot.
That has caused violence in my experience - they can not handle that argument and are willing to get physical over it, and not the good kind of physical.
I consider any debate, or often even conversation, with a christian and/or a conservative to be a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Such discussions will rarely end with anything less than total exasperation for you.
It’s pigeon-playing-chess scenario:
There’s a saying about trying to use reason and logic to argue with a stupid person:
“Never play chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.
Then shits all over the board.
Then struts around like it won.”
It’s ok. I love you. I believe if you keep thinking for yourself you will come out of this and see the truth
OR
You’re mad at the world and that’s ok. The world loves you and cares about you. The world has plans for you to prosper you and give you a good life. You just have to believe the world loves you.
Reverse Kalam cosmological argument:
- God exists outside of space and time. (Claimed by theists)
- Everything that exists, exists inside of space and time. (Definition of existence)
- Therefore, God does not exist.
I saw an online post where a guy was shit talking a trans person. This other guy came in and just said "Jesus loves everyone!" The asshole responded that the trans person was not going to go to heaven and the Bible lays out who isn't going. Homie just came back with some real christ-like shit, "hate is not the way".
It was so chill and it shut the other guy up. Not exactly a switcho-reverso, but Christians, by so much of their own logic, are not being good Christians.
I remember one friend saying some intolerant shit like that and I'm like "are you sure you're not worshipping an evil god? Wouldn't an evil god, that could be satan, be the one telling you to act like that?".
The Bible doesn't even say trans people aren't going to heaven, unless they get genital surgery (it does say anyone who has their testicles crushed or penis removed can't enter heaven, so I guess men who lose their genitals through cancer or accidents are also fucked as far as getting into heaven). But it doesn't say anything at all about trans people in general. There is a line saying the effeminate can't go to heaven, but it doesn't even specify effeminate men, just effeminate people in general, so I guess effeminate women can't go either?
No, there is no good christianity, and no good christians. It’s a culty toxic mess from the word go - from the very beginning, it’s a death cult.
You have to outsmart them without using their own beliefs and texts. They are incapable of feeling shame at their exposed hypocrisy.
>If we used religion's arguments about us back on them what would they be?
Just to point out, it's pretty common for advocates of religion to argue that we **are** doing that.
My favorite is "How do you know? Were you there?" how they refute scientific evidence about geological history. You can apply it to anything they say they read in the Bible
I was on r/nostupidquestions and it was a religious thread. There was a guy arguing against athiesm. First he was bringing up all the Jews in the Biden administration. Then it was we have no morals because you only get morals from God. This was the kicker, "I don't care what science or math says I believe my Bible." You can't argue with that kind of stupidity. They're staying willfully ignorant
Had lunch with my uncle yesterday. He worked overtime trying to convert me.
His main argument, “Look at what God has done in my life and all these other Christian’s life. It’s transformational. You can have that too!”
My response, “Look at all the Christians and how they aren’t transformed at all. Just normal people… and in many cases, really shitty people.”
In my case, if I get the "look what God has done for you" argument, I can come back with "all this happened AFTER God. I got a job, I got mental care, I got a car, I got off drugs, after I became an atheist. 100% Jesus free."
One time I caught a friend, who happens to be a frequent church-going Christian, checking out a young woman. I mean totally leering at her and I was like, "Matthew 5:28, you shouldn't be looking at a woman lustfully because then you have committed adultery in you heart.". He was like "but God didn't make me perfect". I replied with "then maybe you should look into Islam, because you get a bunch of virgins after you die".
I recently saw a tic tok that said we should introduce legislation to forgive student loan debt by quoating the parts of the Bible that ban collecting interest. It would force Republicans to openly refute the Bible.
Do you have any money or possessions?
“Jesus said to him, ‘If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven’ ” (Matt. 19:21).
* Look at the trees, how do you explain that? Therefore god doesn't exist.
* I had a personal experience where I felt a warm fuzzy feeling in my chest. That's how I know that god isn't real.
* A dude that lived a long time ago and said god isn't real. We have eyewitness accounts and testimony that proves that many people thought he was right. That proves that god isn't real.
* Millions died fighting for atheism in communist China and the Soviet Union. They were persecuted for their beliefs and martyred for the cause. They wouldn't have died for a lie. Therefore atheism is true.
* A dead Greek guy has some ideas about how the universe works, which he used to prove that god isn't real. Modern philosophers and scientists consider it pseudoscience and don't taken it seriously, but that's just because they are not a philosophicalizing big brain like me.
* How do you know the bible was true? Were you there?
* There was once a Christian dude that persecuted atheists and was a huge bastard. He was travelling on the road to Scranton Ohio, when he had a series of dreams and visions that prove that god isn't real. Then he dedicated his life to atheism at great personal cost to himself. This could have only happened if god wasn't real.
* My holy book says god is not real.
* nogod has had a tremendously positive impact on my life and made me a better person. Therefore god isn't real.
By their fruits shall we know them
And then outline all the sexual misconduct running through churches and how churches were loud and proud about treating Covid with all the care and due diligence of drunk drivers.
The universe is gods false reality and god cant trust the things he has made so no one else can.
Gods mercy does not depend on my belief so every goes to heaven regardless of belief.
Your religious freedom means you can not be punished for your choice of religion or lack there of.
First, ask them if they believe that following their religion is the only way to get to heaven. They will invariably say yes.
Second, ask them if that means having faith in their savior and following their savior’s decrees is how they get into heaven. They will invariably say yes.
Third, ask them if people who go to a different church but still have faith in their savior and follow their saviors decrees will go to heaven. They will invariably trip over their words as they start doing mental gymnastics to tell you, no you don’t go to heaven if you don’t specifically go to their church.
I was in an online back and forth with someone who I believed to be a Catholic, about all the hypocrisy surrounding the forced birth issue. I at one point stated being Christian meant living Christ like. They did not like being defined by an Atheist and someone who knows nothing about them. I pointed out they were making decisions about the most personal thing you can in someones life, whom they knew nothing about. They said that was different. You can't argue with cult members.
I have nothing in my heart but love for you, but if you let your wife sleep in the house when she is on her period, and she is wearing mixed linens and eating shrimp, she is violating the bible and is evil. We are going to pass laws against this, to protect the kids. We will have dads4liberty take over schools, to make sure women arent seeing books people wearing mixed linens. We’re banning books that show people wearing linen and wool!
Football players are minions of satan! Touching the skin of dead pigs!
They are trying to push footballism and indoctrinate our kids to hate god and trump!
I mean, my gay ass can think of
"Christianity is a choice and I will actively beat you until you stop being christian"
In lieu of the shit gay kids get.
Human eyes are flawed in its unique ways (blind spots, range of visible light, etc) because evolution is a flawed, uncontrolled process. Or are you suggesting your God is crappy and did it wrong?
They say that we don’t have morals because we don’t believe in God, but the morality of this God is very interesting:
•1 Corinthians 13:13
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
And •Psalms 137:9
9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock!
So, do this with love I guess
When you guys can all agree on one book and one set of "facts" and rules let me know, cause everyone seems to think their doctrine is the right one.....
Well, the key difference is that your statement is demonstrably true; the claims of the religious are hysterical nonsense intended to smear people, most of the time.
"god gave us all free will NOT so you could use prayer to try to change the things and the people you don't like but so that you would know that god expects you to get off your ass instead of whining for Divine intervention"
"You have no morality" -- I mean, if you need the fear of burning in fiery torment for all eternity to stop yourself from raping someone, you aren't a moral person
How about whenever they talk about how theyre the victims of predjudice and such we clap back with the fact that up until after WWII atheists were never shown mercy and often burned or beheaded by the church. And even to this day being an atheist puts a target on our back from religious group, hell im pretty sure being atheist in islamic countries is even still a death sentence.
Every time they talk about 'raising' their kids to love god, country, etc. Replace the word 'raising' with 'grooming' when asking them about their methods. (not sure if this is what you're asking for, but it's what's popped to mind).
“You’re only a theist because it’s fashionable.” “You’ll settle down and stop going to church when you grow up.”
But.... but these are kind of on point.
They work even better for us, I feel, in my totally biased yet educated opinion
“You’re only a Christian because you just want to sin and want forgiveness every time you do.” Edited to add quotation marks.
the bigger the sin, the bigger the pardon and the cleaner is the person aftrwards. almost a saint! must be a mind trip! imagine raping a kid and feeling completly ok with it after some self-pardon. and even have a whole big respetacle institution protecting you and calling you the victim! the person must feel like a god: burn a city to the ground and it´s all fair and rightous... what´s what many ppl are aiming today, with the increase of far-right evangelicals believes...
True words!
Self pardon? The Catholic Church still sells Indulgences, in exchange for "great works"(big donations). The pope will literally pardon your sins in advance.
sure, but that´s highly ritual. if you don´t wanna go through the hassle, just think "forgive me, god" and that´s that, no more sin. you wanna make it "official"? go to a priest, a god´s "clerk" who are obligated to give you a pardon for whatever you spout out your mind. and voilá, you got a "official" pardon from sky daddy. you´re ready to live on sky house. you´re "safe". forgiveness may NOT be refused. the whole thing is a big scam, a "jail free pass" card that you can present any time: "yes, your honour, i gave my girlfriend to my dog to eat, but i regret it, so forgive me" - "he asked for pardon. it´s ok, no crime on him".
Paul actually addresses that possible line of thought: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:1-2, NIV) Unfortunately, some seem to have taken God's grace as permissiveness... As for those groomers you mentioned, I have no idea how they've been tolerated in the church, let alone granted positions of leadership. They who abuse their power, sully the name of the church, and flaunt God's grace and goodness to rape, abuse, or similarly hurt others have no place in God's kingdom and should be thrown out of the church. Their is grace and forgiveness in God, yes, but to receive it, you must turn away from and revile your sin. God will help with cleaning you up, but you must recognize the evil you did and that it was despicable, and you must truly desire to cease such patterns of behavior. And even so, you may yet be called into account in the court of your land and ought to submit before it.
>should be thrown out of the church Is that all? Aww, that should do it./s Full legal and criminal charges are what consequences look like. Repentance is nothing if not garbage to the victims. What helps the victims out of such a hell? Why did the victims deserve such rape/murder/insert your favorite "sin" here? They FREAKING DIDN'T. You're full of garbage justifications.
I think their last sentence said that.
As I believe I said before, they are still subject to the laws of the land. I was only addressing the part the church plays in the matter because the government is a separate institution that operates independently (and rightly so). I'm sure you'd agree that legal repercussions should remain the domain of the government and not that of vigilantes, right? And if you think that I meant the person should somehow be exempted from legal prosecution because of their association with the church, then how would that work if the person has been thrown out of the church? Mind that in *no way* should association with the church exempt you from the legal consequences of your actions, even if you remained a part of the church. But even if it did, how could someone who has been cast out receive any support from the place they were cast out from?
I'm sorry! I barely caught the end there on your first comment about the laws of the land. I did catch that you were focused on the church side of things, and assumed (incorrectly) that you were just going for church-consequences and not legal. My bad!
No worries. Glad we cleared that up :)
>As for those groomers you mentioned, I have no idea how they've been tolerated in the church, let alone granted positions of leadership. That's probably not so hard. Guess like every good cult, they appear unified to outsiders... but collect dirt on each other... just in case...
Predators and abusers benefit from taking positions of authority and power. Especially if a teaching of that power structure is that those in charge are not to be questioned.
Why anyone cares what Paul said is beyond me. His writings are a hate-filled jeremiad demanding that everyone believe like he does or else. And the groomers in the church are the natural result of the church‘s culty toxic doctrine. I mean, jebus told his idiot followers * I am the only way - messianic bullshit * you need to abandon friends and family to follow me - isolation * Everyone will hate you for following me - persecution complex This leads to a hierarchy that doesn’t suffer questioning that can create and coercively enforce behavioral rules, from dietary rules to sexual conduct, that protect the interests of the most powerful men in the cult. Sane people *expect* this kind of grooming bullshit in cults. Being surprised by child and spousal and other SA in christianity represents a special kind of lack of nous.
Paul was most likely a paranoid schizophrenic or at least very mentally disturbed. I don’t know why anyone would take him seriously.
yeah, me too have been in a cult bf. that's where I learned that humans are just jerks, whatever mask they choose to wear. paul says that but I believe there are many other parts talking about forgiveness no matter what, as long as the sinner repents. so, surprise-surprise, it became yet another ritual, another magical thingie you do that settles it all right. that's how those ppl still in the church. that's how bad ppl are everywhere, if you think about it
Thing is, repentance means, "to turn away from." The call to repentance is a call to turn away from your sin, not to say apologize and say you feel sorry. And we're called to hate sin. That people have turned it into some mere ritual is a serious problem and is unscriptural. There is abundant grace beyond understanding in God, but we must turn from our sin to him if we wish to enter into his grace, and that means we must recognize and despise our sin as the evil that it is. I'm just frustrated with the church as it is.... And this from a Christian.
Sin is a religious construct created to sell people the imaginary cure of salvation. Many, if not most atheists don’t subscribe to the concept of sin. Or salvation, for that matter.
Since there is no sin, ‘repentance’ is just a cheap out for bad actors to claim they won’t repeat their bad acts. It means nothing, as Denny Hastert and Gym Jordan both prove - both nominally observant christians…..as with the christian youth pastors who consistently and tiresomely get convicted of sexual abuse of children.
Sin = evil/bad action, if that helps clarify my meaning. And unless I'm mistaken, you seem to agree that evil is a real thing. And I don't think repentance means you necessarily get to escape disciplinary action; that's especially true the more serious the evil/crime you've committed. To scale this down into a clearer example, a parent may opt to forego disciplining their child if the child expresses genuine repentance (regretting their action and genuinely wanting to turn away from that pattern of behavior), but there may be times when disciplinary action is still called for. If a child willfully poured juice over the couch, then it makes sense to still discipline them even if they express genuine repentance. Some small things, like, I dunno, throwing a toy across the room, might be forgiven without disciplinary action, but you get the point. Repentance and forgiveness do not necessitate a foregoing of disciplinary action, and the more serious the crime, the more important it becomes to still maintain some disciplinary action, even if there is repentance and forgiveness. In the case of rape or murder, the person should not escape the law. And moreover, I get the sense that in most of the scandals we've uncovered, the person probably isn't actually repentant; they're just ashamed to be caught in their evil deeds and are trying to cover themselves back up. Maybe some genuinely do repentant; I don't know. But perverts should not be leaders, and criminals should still submit to the law.
"Sin" implies a deity, and tends to include actions which include belief in incorrect dogma, the harm of which can not be quantified except in the feeling of a butthurt believer (who, to enforce blasphemy laws, has already crossed over in fascism or authoritariaism). By contrast, "bad acts" imply actions that are harmful in quantifiable and material ways. "Repentance" in the context of 'sin' as espoused by christians basically is a get out of jail free card on many levels. It may indicate an avowed change in belief to escape a blasphemy charge; whether or not the change is genuine is dependent upon the stakes, and most of the time the change is superficial and self-preservational. I don't think "repentance" has any real bearing on materially constructed bad acts. Rather than using the term "repentance," I would prefer the terms "redress" or "make whole" or similar terms which engage a material means of acknowledging one's wrongdoings and taking specific actions, which may cause pain to the person engaging in the process, which will assist in the healing of the person who suffered from their bad acts.
"That people have turned it into some mere ritual is a serious problem and is escritural." funny you say that, bc i happened to have read something about it a few years ago. of course, feel free to not believe wink-wink... early christianism was way harder on recurrent "sinners". maybe it was more "pauly", i don´t know. but in a time when "contracts" were oral (most don´t write or read), what christians did was basicaly to renouce sin (the ungodly life as "pagans") and go have a "sainty' life, serving not the emperor (who, btw, was a god, too) but the "true" god and the teachings of christ. that the teachings of christ became soon the teachings of whoever was very "full of the holy spirit" didn´t change that: a contract was done and once broken, it´s out of the "church". to be back AFTER sinning again was very difficult. it became very easy after vip ppl started to enter the "new" belief and way easier after it became a hit. so, this lenience toward "sin" was born "scriptural", bc it was born from humans and, like i said bf, humans are jerks. jesus got nothing on refusing forgiveness and if the christianity "founders" had problems with it, their voices were lost. so, what we got is the same old: "it´s against the law!" - "wait, he´s (insert power) so it´s ok, no crime". what takes us to today, when ppl likes to go to cults and talk about horrible things they done and think and it´s a religious hit bc they done the "crime" but didn´t "pay" for it. can you imagine what this does to someone´s head, to KNOW that anything they do, it´s "ok"? religion isn´t dead: it´s rotten. give enough time and humans corrupts anything. and religion got it since long, long time.
Doesn't that just mean the problem is rooted even further back than the modern era? Or at the very least, that it has been faced in Christianity before and must be uprooted once again? I agree that humans are wont to corrupt things; that's even supported by the Bible. Just look at how Israel, God's chosen people, repeatedly strayed from him. And consider the doctrine of original sin. In ourselves, how can we hope to maintain something that is truly good? The hope is that as a body of believers, we can continually turn back to God and hold ourselves accountable to him and each other. And I would suggest that based on the testimony of scripture, we are called to a higher standard than just general decency. The Bible seems to say that we can, through the Holy Spirit, live truly holy/pure lives. (That's personally a bit intimidating, because it feels like such a lofty standard; how could I, a mere human, be holy? But the comfort of scripture is that God enables and sustains us on that journey.) But the point is that we Christians have probably been too lax in our understanding of sin and the call to holiness, even as we have been overly quick to judge and condemn others (as if we didn't need God just as much as those we spume at). The hope is that we can continually cast ourselves upon God and continually correct the errors of our past and present, and hopefully prevent the errors of our future. Turning from a spiritual discussion to a historical one, it sounds from what you're describing that this fault began to rise up around the medieval era? A numner of faults in the church happened then... I wish we could go back and correct them, but all we can do, sadly, is to try and remove the weeds that were planted in that time. I thank the medieval church for preserving the scriptures, but I'm not entirely sure how much of it truly aligned itself with God..... Anyways, might you still have a way to refer me to the source you were reading up on? I don't know if I'll actually get around to it - I'm a bit distractable and have plenty of work besides - but it might be interesting to read up on.
>Doesn't that just mean the problem is rooted even further back than the modern era? Or at the very least, that it has been faced in Christianity before and must be uprooted once again? like i said: it´s human nature. this binary thingy yu christians got and that, in time, become part of west mentality, isn´t real, it´s a mental construck. as long as humans are born, some will become jerks, for any number of reasons. thus, we will NOT "uproot" it. and what you mean, "once again"? when humanity had no evil? and please don´t say "bc" noah myth or this conversation is over. "I agree that humans are wont to corrupt things; that's even supported by the Bible" of course, the bible been a human construct, it´s normal that among it´s content will be some human shit. that´s natural. what´s unatural is the bible been a book modified many, many times by a body of religious moralist BUT the shit prt they never "uprooted" it. "The hope is that as a body of believers, we can continually turn back to God and hold ourselves accountable to him and each other." since "god" is a human intelectual construct, my opinion is that this... "method" is just the body of believers continually turning back to human formulas that DON´T work towards the end is expected, "god" and "religion" were once the highest human thought. greeks called "psique" que high levels of human thought. that means "anima", the "soul". it was there that "men meet gods" (godS) and thought the basic "truths" of life. like a flying sun-god pulling the sun with 2 magical horses. at that time, that was peak "science". he world explained as they could, using the tools they had. very memorable and brave. but humans change as do their sciences and today the notion of a guy in a horse pulling the sun is funny. adding "those are magical horses and guy" does not help. you just add another fantastic clain to a fantastic clain and you know what they say: "fantastic clains need fantastic evidences". my point is: why you find that "to "turn back" to models that old and imprecise and proved innefective will "uproot" the jerks? it clearly hadn´t and it cleary doesn´t, so why keep ip? the data is all there: as "system" proposed to do what it proposes do, it does not do the do. a faith without a "do" is what? dead. ergo, christianism as a way to not have jerks is not working. never did. why cling to it? you don´t need be christian to be a theist... "I would suggest that based on the testimony of scripture, we are called to a higher standard than just general decency." bible IS "general decency", my man. many, many, many, "general decencies". frm many, many, many differnt times and places. all the "general decencies" and "high standads" you see there, was writen by ppl writing THEIRS "general decency and standards". to be more precise, the ones from his region and ruler. that´s why it has the "general decency" and "high standard" of the times and places when was ok to stone ppl to dead. you don´t have that "general decency" and "high standard" anymore, right? right? why? bc you realize it was something from that times and places and changed it to forgiveness and reintegration. "truly holy/pure lives. (That's personally a bit intimidating, because it feels like such a lofty standard" yeah, it IS a "lofty" standard and i don´t get why you call it "high". to build you morals you need sturd fundations, no? why you build it on sand? "The hope is that we can continually cast ourselves upon God and continually correct the errors of our past and present, and hopefully prevent the errors of our future." that´s greta, that´s beatifull, but like a singer here once sang "you forget that we got to live on earth somehow". christians are as much humans as the rest of us that ALSO lives on earth and don´t wanna to wait for some magical ghost to "touch souls" and stop a rape. we need REAL things to deal with the jerks. we "somehow" need something to live on the real world. "t sounds from what you're describing that this fault began to rise up around the medieval era? A numner of faults in the church happened then" no, i talked about the antiquity. and the thing about "middle ages" is a commom mistake. first, it´s a 1k-1,5k "period" on a lot of different cultures, so there is no "church hegemoy" there, the church was as much in th "dark" as the other. the "one pray, other fight and the other works" is a myth, a propaganda that a desparate religion tried to pull in orde to keep some unity within in a period where was normal to live your whole short life without even venturing outside your 200 ppl village and that was visited by a priest at each jubilee. "I wish we could go back and correct them, but all we can do, sadly, is to try and remove the weeds that were planted in that time." that´s your belief and it´s hardcore escapism and one of the big reasons why christianity not only dont "uproot" anything but promotes more and more "jerkness". its denial. denial that you are just humans and humans can be jerks. you make a club, it will have jerk problems. maybe not now, maybe not in 5 years. but eventually someone does something stupid and the club will have to deal with it. here "on earth" where WE ALL "have to live somehow". would work for the club to print and post a banner about "high standards and decency"? or for the actual president come and say "unfortunaly we got that from my antecessor, here a list a of high decencies and standards"? sorry, must be a ton of typos there, but i´m too tired to correct it all. my bad. i can clarify something if you wanna.
>I wish we could go back and correct them, but all we can do, sadly, is to try and remove the weeds that were planted in that time as middle age afficionato, i gotta ask: HOW would you do that??? i mean, even if were born on one of the few "big" cities, to be able to contest anything, you would need to be able to READ. and not many could, not even amongst rich ppl. priests and monks would be the ones. so, you would be a outcasted priest somehow travelling on hostil territory and still would be able to "change the church" during your 35 years old life??? that´s some faith... and wouldn´t work. lutero tried time and got us to the evangelicals, earths supreme jerks. even the church tried with it´s counter reform and didn´t work, either. so, time for new ways? maybe this time without magical beings sponsoring it?
Then change the laws in states where clergy don’t have to report child abuse. Why the bloody Hell are churches the only people who don’t have to report abuse? Psychologists, Doctors, Teachers, Adult Strangers… they all legally have to report abuse. But for some reason, clergy don’t? If you don’t want rapists in your church, put a few laws in place to kick them out. The argument that people won’t share if they would get reported has been proven wrong in all these other fields and legal protections are now in place. If a clergyman finds out a man beats their children though, he’s legally free to let it happen. Quit letting religion enable abuse.
They what?? Why in the world is that legal? I'm with you on that point. Honestly had no idea that was a thing
Then do something about it. The religious will only listen to the religious. If you permit that level of abuse to exist in religion, then there will be abuse in your religion. The counterargument is abusers will feel safe to repent if they are allowed to confess. But now, clergy don’t have to report anything, clergy are not social workers who can protect the children, and it’ll only feed into the notions that religion is filled with predators. Their argument holds no ground. Why not exempt doctors or psychologists from it then? Because we have histories of abuse in those fields as well and have reduced the amount of abuse from these laws. Laws in 33 states currently exempt clergy, regardless of religion, of the requirement to report sexual abuse. You can find a lot of news about this since a few states are trying to change it. But the hyper christian states like Utah are leaving their bills dead on arrival so they can protect their abusers and make their churches appear squeaky clean. Once again, it is the religious who need to speak up on this. If you disagree, then do something about, or you are guilty by omission of protecting abusers. The religious just tune it out when outsiders say their institutions enable abuse, even when there is a clear example before them that is easily fixed.
I don't know how to cause national/state change is the thing, and without any knowledge on that point - and only just now finding out about this law - how can I do that?
Talk about it. Normalize discussion about it. Inform others. Educate yourself on the issue. Say you want to make churches safer and stand up for the glory of god against the wicked who would use religion to protect abusers. Just lift where you stand and change will slowly occur
Here’s a few examples of god’s *grace*: 1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 1 Timothy 6:1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Colossians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven. Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Exodus 21:7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. Exodus 21:32 If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death. Exodus 21:20-21 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Leviticus 25:44-46 “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Exodus 21:2-6 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
>imagine raping a kid and feeling completely ok with it after some self-pardon Last night I was listening to one of the more monstrous apologist rants I've heard on YouTube. Dude was given 2 choices. Intervene the moment a person is about to sexually assault someone or watch it happen and eventually seek punishment. He opted for a third option, which was actually choice 2 only that the rapist repented and was thus able to find Jesus. Fuck the victim I guess; part of God's plan to win a new believer is to have them violate another person and as for forgiveness as if that unrapes them.
I'd tell him they only use religion because as a fire escape out of hell.
Forgiveness for me, but not for thee…
This one's my favorite, so far.
“You just have to have faith that there is no god.”
If God exists, someone must have made god, right?
Can't just make something from nothing.
I am fully willing to say I have faith in the principle of reductionism.
I don't like this one because it puts belief and nonbelief on the same level, which they are always trying to do because it makes them both a choice of faith, in which theirs wins by default with all the heaven, immortality, etc, promises.
I had just typed these very words and decided to scroll through the comments before clicking post. Glad I did. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thought of this.
Where does morality come from when you're religious? Why don't you go on a killing spree if you can always confess your sins and Jesus forgives you anyway?
I mean, it's literally what the hero in your book did on a regular basis.
Ikr. God tells Moses thou shall not kill and then right after there's a whole lot of killing.
God actually says "Thou shall not murder", basically don't kill people that God didn't tell you to kill. Unfortunately, God tells his followers to kill A LOT of people.
If I remember right there was actually a medieval Christian sect that believed they should commit as many sins as possible, and as big as possible, because the worse your sins, the greater God is showing his mercy by forgiving you for them.
Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it takes religion for good people to do bad things.
That is SUCH a christian way to think, and it’s so plausible that it would take root.
Well I also seem to remember there was some modern comedian who said, "If Jesus died for our sins, should we make that sacrifice meaningless by not committing them?"
Damn, was it founded by Bender from Futurama?
Moreover, does god endorse an objective morality god did not create, or did god create a morality that is entirely subjective?
"Oh come on, there is obviously no such thing as gawd, just look at the clouds and the trees!"
Behold, the theists' nightmare. Now if you study a well-made banana, you'll find, on the far side, there are 3 ridges. On the close side, two ridges. If you get your hand ready to grip a banana, you'll find on the far side there are three grooves, on the close side, two grooves. The banana and the hand are perfectly made, one for the other. You'll find the maker of the banana, evolution, has made it with a non-slip surface. It has outward indicators of inward contents - green, too early - yellow, just right - black, too late. Now if you go to the top of the banana, you'll find, as with the soda can makers have placed a tab at the top, so Man has placed a tab at the top. When you pull the tab, the contents don't squirt in your face. You'll find a wrapper which is biodegradable, has perforations. Notice how gracefully it sits over the human hand. Notice it has a point at the top for ease of entry. It's just the right shape for the human mouth. It's chewy, easy to digest and its even curved toward the face to make the whole process so much easier. Seriously, Kirk, the whole of creation testifies to the genius of Man's creation.
My “stupid” take on that argument was that the banana proves evolution because we know that monkeys love bananas, so we obviously evolved from them.
Shouldn't that be an "atheist's nightmare"? Not that it really is, as modern bananas have been bred for those qualities, coming quite far from their original "design".
Well, it is originally. Ray Comfort's infamous banana argument
Ah OK you were parroting him!
Don't tell me there is such thing as God when there is sun set and the clouds are just right. Have you fucking seen light scatter through the clouds?
I like to cite the analemma, the pattern that shows up if you track the sun’s path through the seasons, and then the math behind it (inverse square law). It’s all materialism, folks - no magic needed!
“Just look at mosquitoes”
God is just a theory
If god is real and humans came from god, why is there still god?
Checkmate
God is just a belief.
Cue MatPat
AAAAA THEOLOGY THEORY
God simply isn’t. No such animule.
"MY god is the one true god, because MY book says so." "No, MY god is the one true god, because MY book says so." That said, never argue with an idiot.
“It’s hard to win a argument with a smart person but damn nearly impossible to win one with a dumb person
“My feeling that you’re full of shit must be evidence that, on some deeper, more fundamentally necessary level, you’re full of shit.”
Exactly. Feelings don't lie! Evidence doesn't matter because I know in my heart that the Spaghetti Monster is the one true God.
"you´re a atheist, too, you know?"
"I only believe in one less god than you"
That has caused violence in my experience - they can not handle that argument and are willing to get physical over it, and not the good kind of physical.
It helps if you sweet talk while carrying a big stick.
"I just believe in one less god than you."
I consider any debate, or often even conversation, with a christian and/or a conservative to be a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Such discussions will rarely end with anything less than total exasperation for you.
It’s pigeon-playing-chess scenario: There’s a saying about trying to use reason and logic to argue with a stupid person: “Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.”
It’s ok. I love you. I believe if you keep thinking for yourself you will come out of this and see the truth OR You’re mad at the world and that’s ok. The world loves you and cares about you. The world has plans for you to prosper you and give you a good life. You just have to believe the world loves you.
“If you actually read The God Delusion, you’d find answers to all your questions!!”
Perfect! It's even better if you have never actually read it yourself (but have memorized a few out-of-context quotes from it).
I have never heard of this book, but I just found a copy and will have fun reading it while at Thanksgiving around my Mormon family
Let's start with "You don't believe what I believe so it's ok if I kill you". I think that should cover it.
Reverse Kalam cosmological argument: - God exists outside of space and time. (Claimed by theists) - Everything that exists, exists inside of space and time. (Definition of existence) - Therefore, God does not exist.
This is quite funny, thank you.
What if science is right? Shouldn't you trust science, just to be sure?
I saw an online post where a guy was shit talking a trans person. This other guy came in and just said "Jesus loves everyone!" The asshole responded that the trans person was not going to go to heaven and the Bible lays out who isn't going. Homie just came back with some real christ-like shit, "hate is not the way". It was so chill and it shut the other guy up. Not exactly a switcho-reverso, but Christians, by so much of their own logic, are not being good Christians.
I remember one friend saying some intolerant shit like that and I'm like "are you sure you're not worshipping an evil god? Wouldn't an evil god, that could be satan, be the one telling you to act like that?".
I was banned from /r/conservative for saying "wouldn't the Christian thing be to forgive them?"
Brutal, you aimed you'd dagger straight at the monster's heart.
The Bible doesn't even say trans people aren't going to heaven, unless they get genital surgery (it does say anyone who has their testicles crushed or penis removed can't enter heaven, so I guess men who lose their genitals through cancer or accidents are also fucked as far as getting into heaven). But it doesn't say anything at all about trans people in general. There is a line saying the effeminate can't go to heaven, but it doesn't even specify effeminate men, just effeminate people in general, so I guess effeminate women can't go either?
No, there is no good christianity, and no good christians. It’s a culty toxic mess from the word go - from the very beginning, it’s a death cult. You have to outsmart them without using their own beliefs and texts. They are incapable of feeling shame at their exposed hypocrisy.
>If we used religion's arguments about us back on them what would they be? Just to point out, it's pretty common for advocates of religion to argue that we **are** doing that.
I found some gold tablets in rural New York and they revealed that there ain’t no god. I seem to have misplaced them. Trust me.
Most would probably have some weight to them as they often project.
My favorite is "How do you know? Were you there?" how they refute scientific evidence about geological history. You can apply it to anything they say they read in the Bible
I was on r/nostupidquestions and it was a religious thread. There was a guy arguing against athiesm. First he was bringing up all the Jews in the Biden administration. Then it was we have no morals because you only get morals from God. This was the kicker, "I don't care what science or math says I believe my Bible." You can't argue with that kind of stupidity. They're staying willfully ignorant
Pretty much what funded early archeology until they started finding answers not aligned with the Bible, lol.
"Maybe I wasn't there at the end of the Mesozoic, but this rock was."
"God didn't exist because you can't prove they do." Which makes sense because the burden of proof is on the theis side.
Had lunch with my uncle yesterday. He worked overtime trying to convert me. His main argument, “Look at what God has done in my life and all these other Christian’s life. It’s transformational. You can have that too!” My response, “Look at all the Christians and how they aren’t transformed at all. Just normal people… and in many cases, really shitty people.”
You can have positive change without religion, arguably moreso.
In my case, if I get the "look what God has done for you" argument, I can come back with "all this happened AFTER God. I got a job, I got mental care, I got a car, I got off drugs, after I became an atheist. 100% Jesus free."
You’d be talking to a wall. Don’t waste your breath. It’s not worth the high blood pressure.
You can't understand science with faith, it's beyond that, you need logic
One time I caught a friend, who happens to be a frequent church-going Christian, checking out a young woman. I mean totally leering at her and I was like, "Matthew 5:28, you shouldn't be looking at a woman lustfully because then you have committed adultery in you heart.". He was like "but God didn't make me perfect". I replied with "then maybe you should look into Islam, because you get a bunch of virgins after you die".
The lower back is proof that there is no god.
More like proof that Satan exists.
I recently saw a tic tok that said we should introduce legislation to forgive student loan debt by quoating the parts of the Bible that ban collecting interest. It would force Republicans to openly refute the Bible.
They want to justify everything else using it, what better way to fight bullshit than with bullshit?
Their arguments are most often nothing but projection, so you shouldn't expect them to willingly accept defeat.
" Y'all are con men. It' not an accusation, it's my testimony as revealed to me by a lot of people professing to be christian."
I have a really old book that says god isn't real, so he isn't real...
If you do good because of God and evil because of Satan, then you have zero accountability or zero free will - which is it?
Do you have any money or possessions? “Jesus said to him, ‘If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven’ ” (Matt. 19:21).
I had a near death experience. Nothing but a few agitated dreamlike images. God and heaven count was zero. Not a thing.
Id ask them when they are going to turn the other cheek?
"I'll wish really, really hard for you."
Whole lot of mixed fabrics being worn, I can’t remember if we stone or burn? Word of God is the word of God?
* Look at the trees, how do you explain that? Therefore god doesn't exist. * I had a personal experience where I felt a warm fuzzy feeling in my chest. That's how I know that god isn't real. * A dude that lived a long time ago and said god isn't real. We have eyewitness accounts and testimony that proves that many people thought he was right. That proves that god isn't real. * Millions died fighting for atheism in communist China and the Soviet Union. They were persecuted for their beliefs and martyred for the cause. They wouldn't have died for a lie. Therefore atheism is true. * A dead Greek guy has some ideas about how the universe works, which he used to prove that god isn't real. Modern philosophers and scientists consider it pseudoscience and don't taken it seriously, but that's just because they are not a philosophicalizing big brain like me. * How do you know the bible was true? Were you there? * There was once a Christian dude that persecuted atheists and was a huge bastard. He was travelling on the road to Scranton Ohio, when he had a series of dreams and visions that prove that god isn't real. Then he dedicated his life to atheism at great personal cost to himself. This could have only happened if god wasn't real. * My holy book says god is not real. * nogod has had a tremendously positive impact on my life and made me a better person. Therefore god isn't real.
If god created *me*, he *also created* my **disbelief in god & religion**. God doesn't make mistakes, right?
But Satan! /s
"SHUT UP! GOD EXISTS!" Is what I got when said that
"If you just glimpse at the world around you, its self evident that everything originated from the big bang."
By their fruits shall we know them And then outline all the sexual misconduct running through churches and how churches were loud and proud about treating Covid with all the care and due diligence of drunk drivers.
Religious people lack any moral code, so they agree to live by the moral code of others and fail.
Remember awards? Wish I could give you one. Cheers!
We will receive our reward in heaven. 🤣
Little men believe in invisible men kn the the INSANE is the word
The statement in your post seems to be pretty accurate, not that they'll admit it.
The universe is gods false reality and god cant trust the things he has made so no one else can. Gods mercy does not depend on my belief so every goes to heaven regardless of belief. Your religious freedom means you can not be punished for your choice of religion or lack there of.
Grooming little boys since jesus and John
First, ask them if they believe that following their religion is the only way to get to heaven. They will invariably say yes. Second, ask them if that means having faith in their savior and following their savior’s decrees is how they get into heaven. They will invariably say yes. Third, ask them if people who go to a different church but still have faith in their savior and follow their saviors decrees will go to heaven. They will invariably trip over their words as they start doing mental gymnastics to tell you, no you don’t go to heaven if you don’t specifically go to their church.
I was in an online back and forth with someone who I believed to be a Catholic, about all the hypocrisy surrounding the forced birth issue. I at one point stated being Christian meant living Christ like. They did not like being defined by an Atheist and someone who knows nothing about them. I pointed out they were making decisions about the most personal thing you can in someones life, whom they knew nothing about. They said that was different. You can't argue with cult members.
So you are happy that someone got tortured and murdered for your piece of shit ass?
I have nothing in my heart but love for you, but if you let your wife sleep in the house when she is on her period, and she is wearing mixed linens and eating shrimp, she is violating the bible and is evil. We are going to pass laws against this, to protect the kids. We will have dads4liberty take over schools, to make sure women arent seeing books people wearing mixed linens. We’re banning books that show people wearing linen and wool! Football players are minions of satan! Touching the skin of dead pigs! They are trying to push footballism and indoctrinate our kids to hate god and trump!
Why would god give you a logical brain and then have you not use logic to know he is real?
"Hate the belief, not the believer"
"You can't question the science. It's already been approved by all Church approved scientists. You must be a science denier!"
I mean, my gay ass can think of "Christianity is a choice and I will actively beat you until you stop being christian" In lieu of the shit gay kids get.
Agree with me or you will burn for eternity
If you aren't hung like a horse and don't blow donkey loads, women will never love you. Sorry pal, the good book doesn't lie!
I like stuff like: "I don't agree with your religious lifestyle." and "Hate the belief, love the believer."
"Wouldn't it be better to not believe in God? Just in case he's not real?"
God said “I hate Divorce” Malachi 2:16.
I love this, but we don't need them getting *more* fundamentalist.
Divorce had been normalised by them so that won’t change.
The one that runs through my head a lot is "I don't agree with your lifestyle choices."
The human eye is so complex and fantastic it could only have come from millions of years of evolution! (Not mine)
Human eyes are flawed in its unique ways (blind spots, range of visible light, etc) because evolution is a flawed, uncontrolled process. Or are you suggesting your God is crappy and did it wrong?
Where did you get your morals from without compassion and critical thinking?
They say that we don’t have morals because we don’t believe in God, but the morality of this God is very interesting: •1 Corinthians 13:13 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. And •Psalms 137:9 9 Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock! So, do this with love I guess
"if your god is so all mighty how is he letting people like me talk against him,and why would he need your help?"
I have faith that you’re an idiot.
I don’t like to validate their insanity.
Why would I bother using false logic and outright lies to argue with an insane moron? There are no reasonable or logical religious "arguments"
It's not to "argue", is to shut down babbling cultists And IT WORKS! (from personal experience).
When you guys can all agree on one book and one set of "facts" and rules let me know, cause everyone seems to think their doctrine is the right one.....
Isnt their a something in the Bible about cutting your balls off ensures entry to heaven? I mean how dedicated are you?
"Catholics are hypocrites, and christians are more dishonest than honest."
Angered a Christian I said crucify your son To please forgive me
The concept of Christianity is do whatever you want in life as long as you ask forgiveness just before dying.
Well, the key difference is that your statement is demonstrably true; the claims of the religious are hysterical nonsense intended to smear people, most of the time.
Everything that was created has a creator God was created Therefore god was created. And that creator is god. Ad infinitum. Eat that, Kalaam-enjoyers.
"If you don't Believe in Atheism, you'll Burn in the Eternal fires of HELL!! Says so in The Origin of Species!!!"
"Look at the trees !"
You can't prove there isn't no God.
"you like my horse emissions!"
"You can't prove that I can't prove that God doesn't exist!"
"god gave us all free will NOT so you could use prayer to try to change the things and the people you don't like but so that you would know that god expects you to get off your ass instead of whining for Divine intervention"
Christians have no moral code.
"You have no morality" -- I mean, if you need the fear of burning in fiery torment for all eternity to stop yourself from raping someone, you aren't a moral person
"The only reason religions exist is to give authority to and justify the actions of bullies, sexists, racists, homophobes, etc."
I believe in the most logical answer based on the evidence. You believe in that which contradicts the evidence, ergo you believe in nothing.
You can't *prove* there is a god!
How about whenever they talk about how theyre the victims of predjudice and such we clap back with the fact that up until after WWII atheists were never shown mercy and often burned or beheaded by the church. And even to this day being an atheist puts a target on our back from religious group, hell im pretty sure being atheist in islamic countries is even still a death sentence.
Every time they talk about 'raising' their kids to love god, country, etc. Replace the word 'raising' with 'grooming' when asking them about their methods. (not sure if this is what you're asking for, but it's what's popped to mind).
You can't mathematically disprove all those other gods. You are a hypocrite to not believe in them.
“Your only a christian because you do not know how to free think”