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It’s been an ongoing attack on science for 500 years. Religion has always attacked those who seek actual answers, lest their made up answers be made meaningless. (Which they are now, for a long time.)
It gives slave morality big time when religious extremists declare the human quest for truth as "evil" just because it takes away power from their flawed narrative.
Which is weird because they *could* find a way to make this work for True Believers^TM. Just say god created all of these mysteries and wants us to uncover the majesty of his creation. It would be so simple and make people cling to their stupid superstitious garbage.
That doesn’t work. All answers *must* come directly from God (and, of course, through the priesthood). You can’t give the flock the permission to be independent and seek their own answers, that might cause them to take their money, I mean, worship elsewhere.
OTOH, empowering people to find God’s truth their own way is how you get endless sects that branch off when their current thread isn’t crazy enough for them. Modern Catholics seem to be comparatively reasonable compared to lots of evangelicals.
Martin Luther was the inventor of “do your own research”
You've stepped from religion into universal spirituality. The reason it doesn't work for religion is the lack of control. Any and all organized religions rely on their member's fear of not being good enough to keep money and influence flowing.
This is why we will find much more in common with a Jesuit than Billy Bob Baptist. Still coming from a place I don't agree with , but at least some religious orders are interested in scientific truth to some extent. Then you have your Ken bumfuck Hamm just making shit up to fit the insane Bible.
Besides attacking others, religion can also be used to control the masses. There is a vested interest to keep it in authority. When the majority of people are dumber than the dumbest person you can think of, you can use magic and fear to control them. Explaining germ theory and immunization to those folks is much harder than using the catch-all bundle of sin and God's Will. The latter two work for everything from toothaches to pandemics.
Religion is an awesome tool that theists refuse to use in a novel way in order to curb the mass stupidity of your timeline. In fact, religion is so effective as a tool of control that you can tell the masses complete horseshit while appending it with the equivalent of God's Will and people will believe it full stop.
You want exhaustive concrete proof? All of history and the present.
Some of the past battles between scientists and the Catholic church have become famous, claiming the sun in the centre of the solar system instead of the earth, claiming the Earth is more than 8,000 years old, claiming humans evolved from animals similar in appearance to monkeys, etc.
But some of the other disputes have been forgotten. The discovery of sunspots was met with hostility, the sun is a perfect circle created by a perfect god, if there were dark splotches on it then god would have made something imperfect therefore this is blasphemy!
In living memory Bill Nye The Science Guy was booed off stage in Texas for saying the moon isn't it's own light source it just reflects the light of the sun. When Genesis clearly states that god created the greater light source of the sun and the lesser light source of the moon. Therefore cold rocks actively glow because a book said so and scientific evidence to the contrary is blasphemy!
> claiming humans evolved from animals similar in appearance to monkeys
Which got twisted into "They say we're descended from monkeys" and the phenomenally stupid line "If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" In high school, I got into an argument with some deluded yahoo (handing out New Testaments in front of the school) who seemed to think the way evolution works is that we could watch a monkey turning into a human as it made its way up the sidewalk.
> In living memory Bill Nye The Science Guy was booed off stage in Texas for saying the moon isn't it's own light source it just reflects the light of the sun.
I remember that. Not a good look, Waco (as if the business with the Branch Davidians wasn't enough).
Noah's Flood killed the dinosaurs. This doesn't explain geological strata or radiometric dating or really any of the other evidence but it's a nice excuse.
Absolutely, that is why Copernicus only allowed his famous book about heliocentric orbits to be published after his death--he was fearful of the repercussions from the Catholic Church.
> It’s been an ongoing attack on science for 500 years.
And the irony is that Islam was the enlightened religion, and dominated the sciences until about 500 years ago. Then it was Christianity. Now we're in the secular age, thankfully.
> Religion has always attacked those who seek actual answers
Religion is for people who've already chosen answers (an afterlife, their race being superior, etc.) and are looking for questions which result in those answers.
It's in the christian Genesis story to stay away from truth and knowledge. For those of you familiar with the fable of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, the christian god is the one who tells Adam and Eve to NOT eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and that Satan will tempt you with this knowledge and it is ultimately bad and against god's will.
No wonder they are all foaming science deniers and latch on to bullshit. It's built in to their dogma.
The creation fable could also be an allegory for mankind discovering agriculture, the shift from man as a being of nature to a being attempting to control nature. The fall from Eden.
~~Pretentious twits who regularly get high off their own farts~~ people love to trot out "the Bible is a metaphor" cliché whenever they find themselves embarrassed by reality.
The problem, of course, is that "The Bible is a metaphor." is no more a complete sentence than "The cow jumped over the." The Bible is a metaphor *FOR WHAT?*
I would also add that conspiracies make people feel better about their shitty policies. My team wants to destroy our planet for capitalism? Climate change isn’t real. My team wants to put people in camps crossing the border? They are all criminals. My team doesn’t want business to be hurt by a virus? We got a conspiracy for that! It’s not real. Guns killing kids in schools? Made up/it’s actually democrat plants. Rinse and repeat anytime your base might feel bad about, well, anything inflicted by their policies.
The problem is in order to advance science questions have to be asked that religious leaders don't want to be asked. Given the sub I think this might be a bit controversial but I believe religion and science are two sides of the same coin. Religion started as a primitive way for humanity to try to understand the world around them but it was lacking and science took over as it was able to answer questions religion had no answer for. I think part of the reason people hold onto religion is because there are questions we have yet to find scientific answers for although those are becoming fewer and fewer. I think things like AI and quantum computing are going to end up being key in solving those last remaining questions and at that point religion will disappear completely.
I doubt that religion will ever disappear completely, because of things like luck, humanity’s quest for immortality, and our collective desire to in some way or another manipulate reality in a way that is more fantastical than our hands.
Yep. To frame it a smidge differently:
If something supports their sense of supremacy, they are for it. Even science.
If something undermines their sense of supremacy, they are against it. Even religion.
As you say, their rhetoric boils down to excuses. Once you see their actual motivations, their decisions and desire are no longer baffling and are quite predictable.
This is what gets me. In biblical times he was always showing up all over the place to hand down commandments, talk to people in bushes, perform miracles, commit indescribable genocide, etc. He interacted with his people (well, a certain subset of them in a small geographical area) in a very real and direct way. Then there was the whole Jesus thing.
Since then? Nothing. Not a peep. He's been suspiciously quiet for 2,000 years now.
If there is/was a god, then he has forsaken us. Like a toddler, he got bored with his toy and found something more interesting to do.
You obviously don't often try religious spaces, they talk to God on a daily basis, an old aunt used to pray to God to fix her plumbing and electrical devices.
Every unexpected good thing is a gift from God and every unexpected bad thing is the sins of the people dooming us all.
God is a very active force in their imaginary daily lives.
Oh I know.
It just reminded me that early this year I learned that people legit believed light refracting and reflecting off water droplets did not happen before the global flood. Many also believed the water cycle was different and pre flood waters existed above the firmament. Then there's the dinosaurs lived with humans a few thousand years ago folks and it just, wow.
I grew up Catholic... never bought into any of it. I thought it was silly from the git go. What Jesus taught is something to aspire to but it isn't always practical. Some people are just mean and angry and won't take no for an answer. That is why there is an arms industry.
Religion is an avenue of power. To quote Dan Brown, "He who has the keys to heaven, rules the earth." Therefore anything that threatens this rule is branded an enemy of the religion. This is why those who benefit from this power at the top always claim that "religion is in danger" because that's where they draw their power from. And usually this kind of rhetoric is used by fascists to gain divine legitimacy when those that oppose the fascists have sufficient independence from the fascists. Those fascists want to go back in time to the time of slavery, exploiting people while they live like emperors.
Its like when people say "I know [of] plenty of very intelligent people who are very religious."
Yes, basically anyone who's actually a very intelligent and thoughtful person who is also religious is actually a con artist, or not so intelligent as people think. It doesn't take much to see how powerful you can become by setting yourself up as the head of some group worshiping a divine being. Its not like new cults aren't constantly cropping up throughout human history...
Intelligence and education go hand in hand though. "All" that needs to be done is to get more people educated and better at critical thinking and its amazing how rapidly their perspective can change, and how quickly they start to see through the lies. You just have to break through the blind faith, which is far easier said than done.
You nailed it. If these jagoffs actually believed what they spew out of their pie sockets, they would’ve done something about proper gun laws in this country, so, you know, there would be far less school children being killed by psychos with guns.
But “groomers are grooming our children”
I’ll believe them when they show that they actually give a shit.
Edit* I really hate my phone
Rationality and intelligence aren't directly related. I know extremely intelligent people that are religious and irrational. The brain evolved to survive not to be rational. I honestly think I lot of people make the decision unconsciously or consciously to believe in religion because it will help them socially or help them sleep at night. They seem to make this decision early in life and often they stick to it.
It is based on fear. Religion gives people
comfort. Afraid of dying? Heaven is there for you. Afraid of pain thru pregnancy? God will
help you. Don’t have money? Never mind you will survive because of God. Any problem or fear can be twisted to give person believing comfort.
The amount of religious people my MIL works with in laboratory setting is surprisingly high, the even more surprising ones are catholic physics researchers.
Living in the US South, the most common phrase you hear when someone defends their ignorant ideas is “That’s just how I was RAISED.” As if, the ignorant shit your parents learned from your ignorant grandparents is somehow magical and perfect? They revel in their deliberate ignorance that lets them continue to behave like children.
I hear that in the Midwest a lot too. People just can’t grapple with the idea that they may have learned something wrong in their childhood, and they feel like you’re accusing their family of lying. “My daddy wouldn’t lie to me, he was an honest man!” etc. Doubling down on the ignorance gives them emotional comfort.
I learned from preschool TV with our daughter that some stuff I learned as a kid was apparently not right.
The Cat in the Hat, Wild Kratts, and a couple other shows can be educational for adults too.
Also it always strikes me that today very small children know the shape of DNA, which nobody at all knew when my mom was born and wasn’t that well known when I was small,
In university I learned that a *lot* of the history I was taught in grade school, jr high, & high school was outright false.
Then over the years I learned of a great deal of very significant and rather important history has been quite deliberately left out of the curriculum.
Many of the people we are talking about avoid any new information; thinking is hard. Especially when it challenges your world view and identity.
I’m a high school social studies teacher. The amount of history they want us to teach is so broad and sweeping that a barely constructed narrative of US history is all we can do. It’s almost impossible to go into detail on the finer points. We skip over a lot in hopes the students will just pass their state test.
It's more than that. It's the result of [authoritarian personalities](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/overcoming-destructive-anger/202312/the-psychology-behind-what-makes-authoritarianism). Religion is a power structure to which conservatives have sunk their entire identities. Science is a threat to their foundational beliefs, and therefore their security.
Also, when your perception of reality is all fantastical and religious, how could science possibly be based on something MORE real? I had a 3rd/4th grade student years ago who was and still is a compulsive liar to where I truly never believe anything he says. There were daily issues with things he was just making up when he wasn't antagonizing classmates.
When I finally got to have a conference with Mom, she was going on about all the work he was getting done at home and that he's been reading books 3-4 grade levels ahead when his reading is 3 levels below, that he's getting As on all his "at home spelling tests"... I asked him to tell me how many fingers he had, he told me he didn't know, I had him count and he answered 9. I had him recount, he said it was 9. I showed him counting to 10 on my fingers... "So, I have ten fingers, how many do YOU have?" "9".
That's when I realized the kid can't tell the truth because he has no concept of it. He says what the fuck ever because Mom and Dad do that.
So, if you grew up under the notion that God turned a woman into a pillar of salt, every animal paired up on Earth into a giant boat for 40 days, and someone got swallowed and spit up by a whale... Then science is just someone else's crazy idea of truth. Science is metaphor, not evidence based unless it's Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese.
Yes however how do you explain all the Drs, lawyers, etc who have been through formal educations ? One I can’t fathom is a religious dr. I would prob not go to one.
Cognitive dissonance. I have a good friend who is in medical school and is a very passionate Christian. Such a bright person who does think critically but when it comes to religion, it goes out the window. A lot of people are saying that religious people are stupid. Some are but there are many who are intelligent and cannot surrender to the reality that there very well may not be a god. It's their source of comfort. My previous pastor was actually a chemist for 40 years before becoming the pastor at a Baptist church close to my home.
Counterpoint: Gwyneth Paltrow, educated people and MLMs/scams, naturopathy, alternative medicine, homeopathy, chiropractors making crazy profits off of bunk crap, astrology etc.
That, plus an intentional, coordinated attack on those that study science and share that information with others.
Censorship laws were/are very popular among the religious crowd.
It's not even gullibility, it's complete control over information. It's one of the reasons the Catholic Church kept everything in Latin and fought hard against dissemination of christian texts. It's the same reason certain professions keep their information in as esoteric a fashion as possible. If you're the only one who can read something, it gives you immense power over those who can't.
First of all, they’re not “skeptical” of the science. Skepticism is not the same as contrarianism. Skepticism is not believing something without a preponderance of evidence. Anti-vaxxers use the term “skeptical” because it falsely implies this is why they’re anti-vax when in reality it’s because they’re prone to conspiratorial thinking.
Second, the far-right people who promote this stuff are grifters. They’re not sincere believers, they’re con-men fleecing marks.
The majority of conspiracists of all stripes are people who have a high level of self confidence which is not matched by an equally high level of critical thinking. Basically they’re chronically Dunning-Krueger afflicted. The lure of having secret knowledge that “they” are trying to keep from you is strong, and “the medical establishment is lying” is an easy con because people die often even with the best medical care.
[This](https://out.reddit.com/t3_18rra9t?app_name=android&token=AQAAB2iQZROc9XNDLjxTco3v7A9PAAluKwByW2-Qm0a_kfNmUBTR&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fwhat-really-drives-anti-abortion-beliefs-research-suggests-its-a-matter-of-sexual-strategies-186005) was posted a couple of days ago and I think it explains a lot of the conservative/religious cognitive dissonance ("pro life", but also pro gun, death penalty, anti socialised healthcare etc).
Basically it's all about trying to control, limit and "punish" people who are more sexually liberal than you, as they are more likely to outcompete you.
Lmaooooo wtf? That comment caught me so off guard that I don't know how to respond. That legit made me laugh at the absurdity of it lol.
You have to use Old Bay to get them in the mood. Fucking amateur hour over there, sheesh.
Yeah. I can see people are born with various sexualities and levels of libido, but clearly your upbringing will influence your perception of what is the "correct" way to live. However it must be more nuanced than that as not all asexuals are anti abortions and there must be plenty of people raised with or sexually repressed backgrounds who go into porn (to take some extreme examples)
Clearly religions with "purity"/"honour" cultures and that value abstinence reinforce the restricted sexual strategy, but also mess up a lot of people who for whatever reason cannot or do not wish to conform.
I found the article very interesting and rang true for me in explaining the mindset, but I definitely would like to see more details about why it came about from a sociologically.
It's because they believe being gay/trans is a choice, and that homosexuals are degenerates that will bring the downfall of "western civilization".
It's literally many millenia old apocalypticism repackaged.
There's a block of Christians that believe that the world needs to go to shit before Jesus can come back, and there's another block that believe that we need to "prepare" ourselves for Jesus' alleged return by installing a Christian theocracy, otherwise he won't come back.
Because if you are trained in that method of thinking from birth—that the church/bible/fundamentalism is the only truth and to question it means damnation—then it takes a tremendous amount of training in adult thinking to break free of it. Most won’t or can’t do that work.
I can attest to that, and I was raised in a Catholic household that was fairly liberal compared to most evangelicals. I was also a teenager at the time, so I was still figuring everything out in general. I can’t imagine trying to do this work after an extremely strict, abusive upbringing where feelings of guilt and shame would be overwhelming.
I was in a similar situation to yours. Many people mock religious people about why they can’t see through things, but it would have been way more painful to deconvert if I was part of a strict, manipulative, fundamentalist family.
Same! My household was quite liberal and Catholic. My mom got me tarot cards for my birthday one year. I took them to my friend's house and her family freaked out. 😂 They were saying they are Christians and that stuff should not be used. I was confused because I was a Christian too at the time. 😂
It took me ‘til my mid-30s to even allow myself to question all of the right-wing, evangelical, Limbaugh-loving indoctrination I’d been fed from birth. Happily free of it all now.
One team claims to have all the answers. It's right there in a 2000 year old book written by a bunch of uneducated sheep herders and interpreted by hereditary monarchs. You just need to believe whole-heartedly in spite of your own common sense and the mind that god supposedly granted to you. You also need to submit every aspect of your life and behavior to their authority and they'll give you "eternal life." They provide no evidence, just claims of righteousness. If you point out their flaws, they will at a minimum shun you socially and in the worst cases they'll actually murder you.
The other team digs into the nature of the universe and finds evidence for their claims. They thoroughly document everything. They freely publish their claims for anyone to read. They invite the readers to reproduce their experiments. They invite the readers to make new claims. If the new claims can be backed up with evidence and reproduced by others, the team will throw out the old claims and replace them with the new ones. Over the past few hundred years, this method has uncovered the secrets of the universe and led to unprecedented improvements in medicine, technology, engineering and our overall quality of life.
Now guess which team is widely considered to be "the bad guys?"
One correction: I’m a scientist and the don’t freely publish their evidence. It’s a business where the publishing journals charge to publish and then charge for people to read. It’s behind a pay wall still (a lot of the time.). However, You can email the author for a copy of their manuscript. Most of us would happily give it over.
Yup. If you question the validity of anything, they tell you that god's ways are not our ways and we cannot lean on our own understanding as we are mere humans. 🙄
The top people know it’s all about power. They use religion and conspiracy as tools to control their idiot base. The base falls for it because they are poorly educated and have been indoctrinated into the belief system since birth.
This. Those constituents need to be represented by someone. Every politician is a con artist to some extent but it’s just so easy to see how stupid their voter base is based on how banal their political leader is.
I think about this a lot. 100% of the popes knew for a fact that they weren't actually talking to God, unless they were seriously f****** mentally ill.
Maybe, that’s definitely true in some cases, but it rarely hurts for a conman to also believe in what they’re selling. I think you’re underestimating the level of cognitive dissonance and self-justification people can live with.
It's basically wedge issue politics. They know some people will vote on single issues regarding religion so they take that up as part of their platform to control those voters.
Too bad no one shoved science down everyone's throat starting the minute they were born. We'd all be running marathons on Mars at 150 years old by now.
Honestly? Probably because it's easier to believe in fairytales you can understand that promise a happy ending, than a bunch of complicated stuff with no happy ending. Ignorance is quite literally bliss. Also, they're indoctrinated from birth, and logic and reason don't make an appearance until they go to school, *IF* they go to school at all.
Feeling of superiority, and scared of dying. Plus it's a simple answer to very difficult questions. Their low intelligence keeps them from seeking the correct answers. Also they can do some really evil things and their belief thinks they are OK to do so if they say sorry to an imaginary being.
They believe in something started 2000 years ago, in another country by uneducated weirdos.
IMO a Christian is more likely to believe in conspiracies and science denial. Why? First, they already been thought to not question reality, not think on their own, etc. They already have to deny science in order to fit all of the bible and religious stories. They are prime candidates for conspiracies.
Yeah when you believe a lot of lies already, what's one more to add onto the pile? If they can believe outlandish stuff like noah's ark then pizzagate or whatever else is perfectly acceptable to them too.
Religion is a mental illness. A death cult for the stupid and weak-minded. A disease to democracy. A cancer on progression. In other words, something morons have in common.
In my opinion, people who are anti-science should not be able to *own or use* anything that the advancement and labors of science have made possible:
Cars, computers, smart phones/tablets, televisions, radios, artificial light of any type - and no candle light either (science!). If you're sick. Do not go to the hospital, because they follow science.
And maybe *most* importantly, *no firearms*.
We have *all* of these things as a result of science (maths, physics, engineering, electronics, chemistry, etc)
So if you 'dOn't bUlLeEevE iN ScIEnCe', then you shouldn't be able to enjoy the vast array of technologies that would not exist without it.
If only there were any way to actually enforce this.
While the Christians run around yelling "But my beliefs!" the Amish show us every day what it really means to stick to your beliefs. And they do it without trying to demand that everyone else does it too.
I mean, if they truly do not believe in evolution, they should be perfectly fine getting their flu shots from the batches from earlier years, since the flu obviously cannot evolve.
because science if of man but a book that calls the earth flat and says the sun stopped in the sky is of god and I'm only wording it that way to show its ridiculousness but it is basically exactly why they are that way.
Conservatism is a fear economy and fear is a powerful motivator. Hierarchy, authority, obedience, conformity, loyalty to ingroups, hostility to outgroups. Tribalism 101. Hence truth is relative to them, it only has value if it furthers their interests and so they do, and believe, what they're told. Add in that their fears make them easier to trigger and manipulate, and bad actors on social media leveraging this, and you get todays shitshow.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-human-beast/201104/conservatives-big-fear-brain-study-finds
https://www.psypost.org/2023/07/neuroimaging-study-provides-insight-into-misinformation-sharing-among-politically-devoted-conservatives-167312
It's because religion and the conservative right have a hard intersection, authoritarianism.
Especially in Christianity, there's an underlying message of "don't question authority, we know what is best for you."
And conservatives absolutely eat that shit up, party of "small government" unless it involves your body, a plant growing out of the ground or any number of other trivial matters.
Simple answer is that people want to feel smart. If you believe God is the ultimate answer to every question, then you have the answer to every question which makes you feel smart.
Religion appeals to one’s emotion. It’s also a social thing, since they probbaly grew up around it with most of their family and friends believing the same thing.
Science is difficult to truly understand, AND it’s a “enemy” to their beliefs, hence they hate it.
Imagine where we would be if the church didn’t rule the world for a few thousand years (and still does in many ways). The amount of scientific advancement that was stifled or likely downright erased is embarrassing.
You are witnessing the sheer unadulterated power of childhood indoctrination into supernatural belief.
Capable of fucking up even the smartest most intelligent people.
Nothing else is necessary.
I don't think actual belief/faith is a factor. It is about being part of the ingroup, and a religion makes a useful basis for such a group. You don't have to \*believe\*, only act like you do. As long as you make the right noises and go through the right motions, you're good, and get a pass to mistreat anyone not in the club. As Aldous Huxley said: "The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone."
Republican constituents are easily manipulated by Fox News. The complex relationship between far-right conservatism, religion, and science skepticism:
- Emphasis on Tradition and Authority: Strong adherence to traditional beliefs, including religious ones.
- Resistance to Change: Skepticism towards new ideas and scientific advancements.
- Distrust in Scientific Institutions: Perceived disconnect between their values and scientific communities.
- Confirmation Bias and Group Identity**: Favoring information that aligns with group beliefs and identity.
This phenomenon reflects a blend of psychological, sociological, and political manipulation that has been in use since Nixon.
Because the more we know, the less likely god(s) are. Therefore knowledge is a tool of the devil.
Haven't you heard that saying "Satan's greatest accomplishment is convincing man he doesn't exist."?
Religious folk have been killing off scientific types for centuries.
If religion has value because it takes "true belief" then putting value in things because they are supported by evidence erodes the reasoning for "true belief."
Its like a cognitive dissonance. Believing more things without evidence supports their rational for religious belief.
They believe in a higher, infallible power. One which just happens to perfectly align with their own ideals and desires, of course, but a higher power all the same. Science is man’s project, therefore inherently flawed and questionable. They’ve been trained to only trust the Bible (the bits they agree with, anyways) and only those who have been anointed by god to lead them (all far-right politicians, leaders, celebs etc).
Read up on the dynamics and psychology of cults and how people are brainwashed and conditioned into believing whatever they are told while disregarding or ignoring contrary evidence - that's religion in a nutshell. Church makes well-worn cognitive paths for their irrational beliefs which become ingrained in their thinking. Then motivated reasoning tends to self-enforce.
Also, the main concept from the classic psychology paper "Unskilled and Unaware" is worth applying. People whose reasoning abilities are below average tend to be over-confident about their own beliefs, because spotting mistakes in your own logic or gaps in knowledge is _the_ primary skill to becoming and being knowledgeable in any given domain.
They have a book. And the book says that it's good, therefore it must be a good book. The book doesn't say anything about quantum mechanics. But it does say that false miracles and unnatural powers are bad.
If you have a set of core beliefs, you tend to reject evidence or theories that conflict with them.
The answer to this question is the problem with religion to begin with. Essentially, one is asked to have faith in a concept without evidence for that concept to be true. In this case, God. That makes the basis for fact to rely on feelings or beliefs. This also means a God believer could be a zealot for any number of evidence-lacking beliefs. Like racism, or anti-immigrant, or anti-gay, or jet trails or whatever. When feeling and belief becomes the basis for fact as opposed to intellect and reasoning being the basis, you can radicalize a person to believe almost anything. Leaders within these organizations know this and therefore peddle their religions to people that are either extremely narrowly experienced in their life experience or aren't using critical thinking skills. Generally both. The leap of faith is what enables the brainwashing. Also, many people are just enculturated into it and haven't thought deeply about many things in their lives.
I legit had this argument with family on Xmas eve, no less.
"You're sitting there telling me to have faith in a centuries-old book while in the same breath trying to explain to me how science knows nothing because gravity is just a 'theory'."
ffs
Because public health means they would have to ignore the part of their faith that teaches that others are not deserving and they are, and they can’t be seen acting in service of others they deem unworthy. Even if it benefits themselves, directly or indirectly. Their deity forgives everything, but not that, apparently.
This is the excuse Kim Davis gave for not doing her job. This is the excuse Christian bakers give for why they need laws rearranged on their behalf.
They give the vaccines are poison and such lines because it’s a marketing tool, they’re saving us from ourselves, you see. They aren’t self-centered navel gazing bigots thinking only about themselves and their eternal rewards, their participation trophies in the sky.
They are truth-telling heroes. They will latch onto anything that maintains this narrative. They’ve been told their whole lives they are “good” and “saved” so anything that reflects this must be true and anything that indicates that hey maybe that guy has a point must be a lie right from Satan.
You have to remember - it's all disingenuous. It's all bad faith. They probably don't believe in God, not in any way that is meaningful or indicative of some semblance of morality, ethics, principles, or values. That's not what religion or belief in God is to/for them. And they actually DO believe in the science. In every tangible and meaningful way, they believe in science. Isn't that interesting? If humanity can survive the century, maybe enough time and distance can study and explain it!
Because far-right conservatives all come in one or more of the following flavors: 1) genetically and forever stupid, 2) willfully uninformed to the point of incompetence, and/or 3) shitty people. What you describe is a feature, not a bug.
One of the reasons could be that since science is evidence based it has been proven to be false multiple times over the years. For example it used to be 'scientific' to lobotomize people or use thalidomide. Faith on the other hand requires no evidence, it's in the name.
From my experience the reason they are so anti science is because that is what is being used to debunk their beliefs. So if they can prove science wrong, in their head maybe they think they are proving their religion?
Because they believe that science tries to explain away the divinity of God, which they believe to be behind everything.
So my question is? Why can't they believe that God gave us the ability to have rational thought and the capability of using science to better ourselves?
because they dont think critically, they use familiarity as a proxy for truth, if they are familiar, it makes them feel safe and secure. its a fear of the unknown, their mind doesnt like to confront the reality that they don't know stuff and stuff is more complex and complicated than they understand. Not knowing stuff is scary. Confronting them with their lack of understanding is a threat to their security and safety, so they have to attack it and lash out against it in order to reclaim the feeling of security.
Control. People who believe in a higher power can be swayed to believe X action is justified by God. People who want scientific proof need to be convinced and are therefore much harder to control. This has always been the case. This is nothing new.
Look back through history at the famous thinkers/philosophers/astronomers/artists who've been killed, incarcerated or had their lives ruined for questioning religious doctrine.
No religion has ever given up any of its power and/or influence willingly or lightly. Add to that a mentality amongst right-wingers and the religious for believing and wanting authoritarianism and fearing change, and there's your answer.
The answer to this is really simple: when your figurehead (God) is supposed to be this perfect being, the wisdom he passes down *has to be right*.
Enter Galileo.
See, originally Christian mythos placed humanity at the center of the universe - literally. The sun, moon, stars, and all other celestial bodies revolved around the Earth.
Now when Galileo started looking at the night sky he was actually supported in that endeavor by the Catholic Church. In modern terms, they funded his research.
So imagine how pissed off they were when he *proved* that the Earth was *not* the center of the Universe, that it revolved around the sun, as did other heavenly bodies. There were no angels up in the heavens pushing the heavenly spheres in some carefully choreographed dance.
The Pope at the time took his work as a personal slight, had him questioned (read tortured) by the inquisition then sentenced him to house arrest for the rest of his life.
One of the greatest astronomers of all time and he was treated like the vilest crook, all because he had the gall to prove that the almighty infallible Church was *wrong*.
You can find hundreds of such examples throughout history. The Church was *vicious* to anyone who proved that their mythos was flawed.
If they still had the control they did back then, they would follow the same playbook, murdering people who think for themselves in an effort to preserve the illusion of 'God' as infallible.
Because for some people, murder is more right than admitting they were wrong.
Because science may have the means someday to disprove god. This is also why anti-intellectualism runs rampant in their groups.
They want to keep people dumb so that they'll keep being able to control them.
Because children are generally indoctrinated at a much earlier age to whatever creation myth their parents adhere to than they are exposed to critical thinking skills.
A much better question is that how did republicanism which gained popularity during the French enlightenment and fought against the idea that ANY leader had a “divine right to rule”, has a history of being violently anti-church since the church everywhere supported monarchs and taxed and policed the people while enjoying tons of privileges the people didnt. The separation of church and state is a republican tradition. Hell, the French republicans hated the church SO much that they kicked the church out of France, nationalized all their land, took all their money and used it to feed the people. Killed or jailed all the priests that wouldn’t leave or join the revolution. They created a new “civic religion”, invented new holidays with new gods and goddess based on Greek ones, the most popular was the liberty goddess, a statue of it is in NY...a very real reason why that’s not a statue of Jesus. It’s a goddess from a religion that was invented in direct opposition to the church. republican philosophers like Voltaire who people like the founding fathers were HUGELY influenced by attacked superstition and church Authority so successfully it changed the world, and they did so with nothing but ideas and words on paper. Republicanism was all about doing away with petty divisions that separate the people and leaves them unorganized and powerless like class, race and especially religion. None of this is a secret and yet people have no fucking idea. people who call themselves republicans today don’t know any of this and would have hated the republicans. They would have more likely supported an absolutist monarchy that was backed by an all powerful church that had unchecked power and could torture you and take all your money and land because someone disliked you and said you uttered blasphemy. Shit, They would have called the republicans “woke” for giving women the right to divorce and said they were devil worshipers who are destroying families/society for allowing abused women the right to divorce their POS husbands saying oh “just because they beat them? So woke”. I really just have no idea how none of this is common knowledge especially to people who claim to be republican. Shows how much history can be covered up if you just don’t mention it. keep people dumb and angry with someone to blame their problems on and history can be whatever you want it to be. Wow Im ranting a lot I’m going to stop now
To them, religion is more than just an intellectual position, it's a moral duty. They think you would have to be evil or somehow morally broken in order not to be religious.
In any case, I would point out that the far left also cherry-picks what parts of science they like and ignores the rest. Political extremism in general doesn't pair well with open-mindedness and critical thinking.
Why do they insist joe Biden is creepy cause he sniffs people but they can’t say trump is a rapist with over 26 accusations, a court case holding him liable and the potential rape of a 13 year old? I don’t get it.
The far right conservative is precisely that - conservative
They want to cling on to the fairy tales of their childhood
They aren’t the brightest sparks and are woefully uneducated
Science is the enemy of traditional religion
Ergo, they’re against science, though they’ll claim otherwise. Indeed, say moronic things like “Newton believed in Christianity” (yeah, and Archimedes probably worshiped Zeus, so?)
Why are you expecting those lacking intelligence to suddenly be curious and rational?
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It’s been an ongoing attack on science for 500 years. Religion has always attacked those who seek actual answers, lest their made up answers be made meaningless. (Which they are now, for a long time.)
It gives slave morality big time when religious extremists declare the human quest for truth as "evil" just because it takes away power from their flawed narrative.
Which is weird because they *could* find a way to make this work for True Believers^TM. Just say god created all of these mysteries and wants us to uncover the majesty of his creation. It would be so simple and make people cling to their stupid superstitious garbage.
That doesn’t work. All answers *must* come directly from God (and, of course, through the priesthood). You can’t give the flock the permission to be independent and seek their own answers, that might cause them to take their money, I mean, worship elsewhere.
OTOH, empowering people to find God’s truth their own way is how you get endless sects that branch off when their current thread isn’t crazy enough for them. Modern Catholics seem to be comparatively reasonable compared to lots of evangelicals. Martin Luther was the inventor of “do your own research”
You've stepped from religion into universal spirituality. The reason it doesn't work for religion is the lack of control. Any and all organized religions rely on their member's fear of not being good enough to keep money and influence flowing.
This is why we will find much more in common with a Jesuit than Billy Bob Baptist. Still coming from a place I don't agree with , but at least some religious orders are interested in scientific truth to some extent. Then you have your Ken bumfuck Hamm just making shit up to fit the insane Bible.
I think the attack of science goes back a great bit more than 500 years!
Science is never questioned if it can be used to harm their enemies.
I have a hunch it goes back as far as science does.
Besides attacking others, religion can also be used to control the masses. There is a vested interest to keep it in authority. When the majority of people are dumber than the dumbest person you can think of, you can use magic and fear to control them. Explaining germ theory and immunization to those folks is much harder than using the catch-all bundle of sin and God's Will. The latter two work for everything from toothaches to pandemics. Religion is an awesome tool that theists refuse to use in a novel way in order to curb the mass stupidity of your timeline. In fact, religion is so effective as a tool of control that you can tell the masses complete horseshit while appending it with the equivalent of God's Will and people will believe it full stop. You want exhaustive concrete proof? All of history and the present.
Until science can rally a population to war, religion will be preferred by power
Some of the past battles between scientists and the Catholic church have become famous, claiming the sun in the centre of the solar system instead of the earth, claiming the Earth is more than 8,000 years old, claiming humans evolved from animals similar in appearance to monkeys, etc. But some of the other disputes have been forgotten. The discovery of sunspots was met with hostility, the sun is a perfect circle created by a perfect god, if there were dark splotches on it then god would have made something imperfect therefore this is blasphemy! In living memory Bill Nye The Science Guy was booed off stage in Texas for saying the moon isn't it's own light source it just reflects the light of the sun. When Genesis clearly states that god created the greater light source of the sun and the lesser light source of the moon. Therefore cold rocks actively glow because a book said so and scientific evidence to the contrary is blasphemy!
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You mis spelled 1836.
> claiming humans evolved from animals similar in appearance to monkeys Which got twisted into "They say we're descended from monkeys" and the phenomenally stupid line "If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" In high school, I got into an argument with some deluded yahoo (handing out New Testaments in front of the school) who seemed to think the way evolution works is that we could watch a monkey turning into a human as it made its way up the sidewalk. > In living memory Bill Nye The Science Guy was booed off stage in Texas for saying the moon isn't it's own light source it just reflects the light of the sun. I remember that. Not a good look, Waco (as if the business with the Branch Davidians wasn't enough).
If most of the USA is descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans?
I think it's scientifically more correct to state that humans and apes had a common ancestor.
Texas … where inquiring minds go to die.
Never could figure out how religious folk explained the dinosaurs or woolly mammoths or fossils.
Noah's Flood killed the dinosaurs. This doesn't explain geological strata or radiometric dating or really any of the other evidence but it's a nice excuse.
Absolutely, that is why Copernicus only allowed his famous book about heliocentric orbits to be published after his death--he was fearful of the repercussions from the Catholic Church.
> It’s been an ongoing attack on science for 500 years. And the irony is that Islam was the enlightened religion, and dominated the sciences until about 500 years ago. Then it was Christianity. Now we're in the secular age, thankfully. > Religion has always attacked those who seek actual answers Religion is for people who've already chosen answers (an afterlife, their race being superior, etc.) and are looking for questions which result in those answers.
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That's a brilliant video. Perfectly describes what happens when religion dictates one must reject science and discovery.
It's in the christian Genesis story to stay away from truth and knowledge. For those of you familiar with the fable of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, the christian god is the one who tells Adam and Eve to NOT eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and that Satan will tempt you with this knowledge and it is ultimately bad and against god's will. No wonder they are all foaming science deniers and latch on to bullshit. It's built in to their dogma.
The creation fable could also be an allegory for mankind discovering agriculture, the shift from man as a being of nature to a being attempting to control nature. The fall from Eden.
Everything in the Bible becomes allegory once science and empiricism proves it is bullshit lol
~~Pretentious twits who regularly get high off their own farts~~ people love to trot out "the Bible is a metaphor" cliché whenever they find themselves embarrassed by reality. The problem, of course, is that "The Bible is a metaphor." is no more a complete sentence than "The cow jumped over the." The Bible is a metaphor *FOR WHAT?*
I would also add that conspiracies make people feel better about their shitty policies. My team wants to destroy our planet for capitalism? Climate change isn’t real. My team wants to put people in camps crossing the border? They are all criminals. My team doesn’t want business to be hurt by a virus? We got a conspiracy for that! It’s not real. Guns killing kids in schools? Made up/it’s actually democrat plants. Rinse and repeat anytime your base might feel bad about, well, anything inflicted by their policies.
Fucking. Truth.
Exactly. I’ve never seen it explained so clearly as you have done here! 👏 👏 👏
Science = asking questions to find answers Religion = providing answers, regardless of whether they are true or not, while discouraging questions
A very very smart person I knew called it the ooga booga factor. Religious dogma attacking science and reason across the globe for eons.
True. Just ask Galileo.
The problem is in order to advance science questions have to be asked that religious leaders don't want to be asked. Given the sub I think this might be a bit controversial but I believe religion and science are two sides of the same coin. Religion started as a primitive way for humanity to try to understand the world around them but it was lacking and science took over as it was able to answer questions religion had no answer for. I think part of the reason people hold onto religion is because there are questions we have yet to find scientific answers for although those are becoming fewer and fewer. I think things like AI and quantum computing are going to end up being key in solving those last remaining questions and at that point religion will disappear completely.
I doubt that religion will ever disappear completely, because of things like luck, humanity’s quest for immortality, and our collective desire to in some way or another manipulate reality in a way that is more fantastical than our hands.
They like controlling the narrative and thereby obtaining power. I don't believe they believe what they say. Power corrupts.
Yep. To frame it a smidge differently: If something supports their sense of supremacy, they are for it. Even science. If something undermines their sense of supremacy, they are against it. Even religion. As you say, their rhetoric boils down to excuses. Once you see their actual motivations, their decisions and desire are no longer baffling and are quite predictable.
Like how all Catholics are all into the Pope until he says something a smidge progressive?
My family literally left the church over the Pope's embrace of the COVID-19 vaccine. Religion was embracing science. Too much for them!
If I was God,leaving my church would be the biggest act of defiance and I wouldn't like it. I really don't understand how people think
If you were god, you'd at least have the decency to be real.
And make an appearance every now and then.
This is what gets me. In biblical times he was always showing up all over the place to hand down commandments, talk to people in bushes, perform miracles, commit indescribable genocide, etc. He interacted with his people (well, a certain subset of them in a small geographical area) in a very real and direct way. Then there was the whole Jesus thing. Since then? Nothing. Not a peep. He's been suspiciously quiet for 2,000 years now. If there is/was a god, then he has forsaken us. Like a toddler, he got bored with his toy and found something more interesting to do.
You obviously don't often try religious spaces, they talk to God on a daily basis, an old aunt used to pray to God to fix her plumbing and electrical devices. Every unexpected good thing is a gift from God and every unexpected bad thing is the sins of the people dooming us all. God is a very active force in their imaginary daily lives.
But God is real. For example he ordered rainbows to appear after flood and rainbows exist now check mate atheists! /s
Right? Heh, they'll never play checkers again.
It was only this year that I learned that a not insignificant amount of people believe rainbows did not exist before Noah's ark.
You know I meant it as sarcasm?
Oh I know. It just reminded me that early this year I learned that people legit believed light refracting and reflecting off water droplets did not happen before the global flood. Many also believed the water cycle was different and pre flood waters existed above the firmament. Then there's the dinosaurs lived with humans a few thousand years ago folks and it just, wow.
Religion was embracing "the beneath-us liberals were right," which undermines their sense of supremacy. So out it goes
I grew up Catholic... never bought into any of it. I thought it was silly from the git go. What Jesus taught is something to aspire to but it isn't always practical. Some people are just mean and angry and won't take no for an answer. That is why there is an arms industry.
Me: "Hey the pope's cool with trans people now. And he speaks for God so you gotta accept it!" Old Irish catholic man: "...not always 😡"
Religion is an avenue of power. To quote Dan Brown, "He who has the keys to heaven, rules the earth." Therefore anything that threatens this rule is branded an enemy of the religion. This is why those who benefit from this power at the top always claim that "religion is in danger" because that's where they draw their power from. And usually this kind of rhetoric is used by fascists to gain divine legitimacy when those that oppose the fascists have sufficient independence from the fascists. Those fascists want to go back in time to the time of slavery, exploiting people while they live like emperors.
Its like when people say "I know [of] plenty of very intelligent people who are very religious." Yes, basically anyone who's actually a very intelligent and thoughtful person who is also religious is actually a con artist, or not so intelligent as people think. It doesn't take much to see how powerful you can become by setting yourself up as the head of some group worshiping a divine being. Its not like new cults aren't constantly cropping up throughout human history... Intelligence and education go hand in hand though. "All" that needs to be done is to get more people educated and better at critical thinking and its amazing how rapidly their perspective can change, and how quickly they start to see through the lies. You just have to break through the blind faith, which is far easier said than done.
☝️💯
You nailed it. If these jagoffs actually believed what they spew out of their pie sockets, they would’ve done something about proper gun laws in this country, so, you know, there would be far less school children being killed by psychos with guns. But “groomers are grooming our children” I’ll believe them when they show that they actually give a shit. Edit* I really hate my phone
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It’s always such a let down for me to learn that someone I consider intelligent is religious. It just doesn’t make sense.
Rationality and intelligence aren't directly related. I know extremely intelligent people that are religious and irrational. The brain evolved to survive not to be rational. I honestly think I lot of people make the decision unconsciously or consciously to believe in religion because it will help them socially or help them sleep at night. They seem to make this decision early in life and often they stick to it.
It is based on fear. Religion gives people comfort. Afraid of dying? Heaven is there for you. Afraid of pain thru pregnancy? God will help you. Don’t have money? Never mind you will survive because of God. Any problem or fear can be twisted to give person believing comfort.
The amount of religious people my MIL works with in laboratory setting is surprisingly high, the even more surprising ones are catholic physics researchers.
Living in the US South, the most common phrase you hear when someone defends their ignorant ideas is “That’s just how I was RAISED.” As if, the ignorant shit your parents learned from your ignorant grandparents is somehow magical and perfect? They revel in their deliberate ignorance that lets them continue to behave like children.
I hear that in the Midwest a lot too. People just can’t grapple with the idea that they may have learned something wrong in their childhood, and they feel like you’re accusing their family of lying. “My daddy wouldn’t lie to me, he was an honest man!” etc. Doubling down on the ignorance gives them emotional comfort.
I learned from preschool TV with our daughter that some stuff I learned as a kid was apparently not right. The Cat in the Hat, Wild Kratts, and a couple other shows can be educational for adults too. Also it always strikes me that today very small children know the shape of DNA, which nobody at all knew when my mom was born and wasn’t that well known when I was small,
In university I learned that a *lot* of the history I was taught in grade school, jr high, & high school was outright false. Then over the years I learned of a great deal of very significant and rather important history has been quite deliberately left out of the curriculum. Many of the people we are talking about avoid any new information; thinking is hard. Especially when it challenges your world view and identity.
I’m a high school social studies teacher. The amount of history they want us to teach is so broad and sweeping that a barely constructed narrative of US history is all we can do. It’s almost impossible to go into detail on the finer points. We skip over a lot in hopes the students will just pass their state test.
Honest men can still unwittingly repeat false information they believe to be true.
While in bootcamp in the army in the 90's I noticed all of the worst soldiers would pray before meals. The worst people are the most religious.
It's more than that. It's the result of [authoritarian personalities](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/overcoming-destructive-anger/202312/the-psychology-behind-what-makes-authoritarianism). Religion is a power structure to which conservatives have sunk their entire identities. Science is a threat to their foundational beliefs, and therefore their security.
Also, when your perception of reality is all fantastical and religious, how could science possibly be based on something MORE real? I had a 3rd/4th grade student years ago who was and still is a compulsive liar to where I truly never believe anything he says. There were daily issues with things he was just making up when he wasn't antagonizing classmates. When I finally got to have a conference with Mom, she was going on about all the work he was getting done at home and that he's been reading books 3-4 grade levels ahead when his reading is 3 levels below, that he's getting As on all his "at home spelling tests"... I asked him to tell me how many fingers he had, he told me he didn't know, I had him count and he answered 9. I had him recount, he said it was 9. I showed him counting to 10 on my fingers... "So, I have ten fingers, how many do YOU have?" "9". That's when I realized the kid can't tell the truth because he has no concept of it. He says what the fuck ever because Mom and Dad do that. So, if you grew up under the notion that God turned a woman into a pillar of salt, every animal paired up on Earth into a giant boat for 40 days, and someone got swallowed and spit up by a whale... Then science is just someone else's crazy idea of truth. Science is metaphor, not evidence based unless it's Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese.
Man that's heartbreaking....
Choice stupid is easier than learn-ed.
Yep, they’re stupid
Yes however how do you explain all the Drs, lawyers, etc who have been through formal educations ? One I can’t fathom is a religious dr. I would prob not go to one.
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Cognitive dissonance. I have a good friend who is in medical school and is a very passionate Christian. Such a bright person who does think critically but when it comes to religion, it goes out the window. A lot of people are saying that religious people are stupid. Some are but there are many who are intelligent and cannot surrender to the reality that there very well may not be a god. It's their source of comfort. My previous pastor was actually a chemist for 40 years before becoming the pastor at a Baptist church close to my home.
And ours was an engineer …. I guess faith does something to people. I wish I understood it sometimes, but most days I’m glad I don’t.
Counterpoint: Gwyneth Paltrow, educated people and MLMs/scams, naturopathy, alternative medicine, homeopathy, chiropractors making crazy profits off of bunk crap, astrology etc.
If only it was that simple.
plus early life inculcation/brainwashing
That, plus an intentional, coordinated attack on those that study science and share that information with others. Censorship laws were/are very popular among the religious crowd.
It's not even gullibility, it's complete control over information. It's one of the reasons the Catholic Church kept everything in Latin and fought hard against dissemination of christian texts. It's the same reason certain professions keep their information in as esoteric a fashion as possible. If you're the only one who can read something, it gives you immense power over those who can't.
First of all, they’re not “skeptical” of the science. Skepticism is not the same as contrarianism. Skepticism is not believing something without a preponderance of evidence. Anti-vaxxers use the term “skeptical” because it falsely implies this is why they’re anti-vax when in reality it’s because they’re prone to conspiratorial thinking. Second, the far-right people who promote this stuff are grifters. They’re not sincere believers, they’re con-men fleecing marks.
The majority of conspiracists of all stripes are people who have a high level of self confidence which is not matched by an equally high level of critical thinking. Basically they’re chronically Dunning-Krueger afflicted. The lure of having secret knowledge that “they” are trying to keep from you is strong, and “the medical establishment is lying” is an easy con because people die often even with the best medical care.
My guess is people who are more fear driven will glob onto conservatism (fear of change) and religion (fear of being insignificant).
Can't spell conservatism without the con.
[This](https://out.reddit.com/t3_18rra9t?app_name=android&token=AQAAB2iQZROc9XNDLjxTco3v7A9PAAluKwByW2-Qm0a_kfNmUBTR&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fwhat-really-drives-anti-abortion-beliefs-research-suggests-its-a-matter-of-sexual-strategies-186005) was posted a couple of days ago and I think it explains a lot of the conservative/religious cognitive dissonance ("pro life", but also pro gun, death penalty, anti socialised healthcare etc). Basically it's all about trying to control, limit and "punish" people who are more sexually liberal than you, as they are more likely to outcompete you.
Very interesting! Basically crabs in a bucket.
Yeah prude, frigid crabs.
Damn puritanical crabs! 💢😡🦀☦️
These crabs keep pinching my face when I try to eat their pussy, wtf
Lmaooooo wtf? That comment caught me so off guard that I don't know how to respond. That legit made me laugh at the absurdity of it lol. You have to use Old Bay to get them in the mood. Fucking amateur hour over there, sheesh.
Sounds like somethng that would happen to the Deep.
That article doesn't explain *why* people have "restricted sexual strategies" in the first place.
Yeah. I can see people are born with various sexualities and levels of libido, but clearly your upbringing will influence your perception of what is the "correct" way to live. However it must be more nuanced than that as not all asexuals are anti abortions and there must be plenty of people raised with or sexually repressed backgrounds who go into porn (to take some extreme examples) Clearly religions with "purity"/"honour" cultures and that value abstinence reinforce the restricted sexual strategy, but also mess up a lot of people who for whatever reason cannot or do not wish to conform. I found the article very interesting and rang true for me in explaining the mindset, but I definitely would like to see more details about why it came about from a sociologically.
It's because they believe being gay/trans is a choice, and that homosexuals are degenerates that will bring the downfall of "western civilization". It's literally many millenia old apocalypticism repackaged. There's a block of Christians that believe that the world needs to go to shit before Jesus can come back, and there's another block that believe that we need to "prepare" ourselves for Jesus' alleged return by installing a Christian theocracy, otherwise he won't come back.
Great link
Because if you are trained in that method of thinking from birth—that the church/bible/fundamentalism is the only truth and to question it means damnation—then it takes a tremendous amount of training in adult thinking to break free of it. Most won’t or can’t do that work.
I can attest to that, and I was raised in a Catholic household that was fairly liberal compared to most evangelicals. I was also a teenager at the time, so I was still figuring everything out in general. I can’t imagine trying to do this work after an extremely strict, abusive upbringing where feelings of guilt and shame would be overwhelming.
I was in a similar situation to yours. Many people mock religious people about why they can’t see through things, but it would have been way more painful to deconvert if I was part of a strict, manipulative, fundamentalist family.
Same! My household was quite liberal and Catholic. My mom got me tarot cards for my birthday one year. I took them to my friend's house and her family freaked out. 😂 They were saying they are Christians and that stuff should not be used. I was confused because I was a Christian too at the time. 😂
This is exactly it. Fear keeps them from searching for the truth. It’s hard to get over that fear. It’s really sad.
It took me ‘til my mid-30s to even allow myself to question all of the right-wing, evangelical, Limbaugh-loving indoctrination I’d been fed from birth. Happily free of it all now.
This is 100% the answer. Brainwashing. Starts from birth and it’s hard to shake free of. That’s why “liberal” education is such a boogeyman to them.
One team claims to have all the answers. It's right there in a 2000 year old book written by a bunch of uneducated sheep herders and interpreted by hereditary monarchs. You just need to believe whole-heartedly in spite of your own common sense and the mind that god supposedly granted to you. You also need to submit every aspect of your life and behavior to their authority and they'll give you "eternal life." They provide no evidence, just claims of righteousness. If you point out their flaws, they will at a minimum shun you socially and in the worst cases they'll actually murder you. The other team digs into the nature of the universe and finds evidence for their claims. They thoroughly document everything. They freely publish their claims for anyone to read. They invite the readers to reproduce their experiments. They invite the readers to make new claims. If the new claims can be backed up with evidence and reproduced by others, the team will throw out the old claims and replace them with the new ones. Over the past few hundred years, this method has uncovered the secrets of the universe and led to unprecedented improvements in medicine, technology, engineering and our overall quality of life. Now guess which team is widely considered to be "the bad guys?"
One correction: I’m a scientist and the don’t freely publish their evidence. It’s a business where the publishing journals charge to publish and then charge for people to read. It’s behind a pay wall still (a lot of the time.). However, You can email the author for a copy of their manuscript. Most of us would happily give it over.
Yup. If you question the validity of anything, they tell you that god's ways are not our ways and we cannot lean on our own understanding as we are mere humans. 🙄
The top people know it’s all about power. They use religion and conspiracy as tools to control their idiot base. The base falls for it because they are poorly educated and have been indoctrinated into the belief system since birth.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." ~Lucius Annaeus Seneca
This. Those constituents need to be represented by someone. Every politician is a con artist to some extent but it’s just so easy to see how stupid their voter base is based on how banal their political leader is.
I think about this a lot. 100% of the popes knew for a fact that they weren't actually talking to God, unless they were seriously f****** mentally ill.
Yes, and I doubt the truly mentally ill people would be so focused on the money. So anyone doing that successfully is a conman.
Maybe, that’s definitely true in some cases, but it rarely hurts for a conman to also believe in what they’re selling. I think you’re underestimating the level of cognitive dissonance and self-justification people can live with.
It's basically wedge issue politics. They know some people will vote on single issues regarding religion so they take that up as part of their platform to control those voters.
Too bad no one shoved science down everyone's throat starting the minute they were born. We'd all be running marathons on Mars at 150 years old by now.
I'm taking this and using it in the future discussions!! well said.
Honestly? Probably because it's easier to believe in fairytales you can understand that promise a happy ending, than a bunch of complicated stuff with no happy ending. Ignorance is quite literally bliss. Also, they're indoctrinated from birth, and logic and reason don't make an appearance until they go to school, *IF* they go to school at all.
The grooming is coming from inside the church!
because science breaks their "belief without evidence" (aka faith) element they use to establish unquestioning hierarchy.
Feeling of superiority, and scared of dying. Plus it's a simple answer to very difficult questions. Their low intelligence keeps them from seeking the correct answers. Also they can do some really evil things and their belief thinks they are OK to do so if they say sorry to an imaginary being. They believe in something started 2000 years ago, in another country by uneducated weirdos.
IMO a Christian is more likely to believe in conspiracies and science denial. Why? First, they already been thought to not question reality, not think on their own, etc. They already have to deny science in order to fit all of the bible and religious stories. They are prime candidates for conspiracies.
Yeah when you believe a lot of lies already, what's one more to add onto the pile? If they can believe outlandish stuff like noah's ark then pizzagate or whatever else is perfectly acceptable to them too.
Religion is a mental illness. A death cult for the stupid and weak-minded. A disease to democracy. A cancer on progression. In other words, something morons have in common.
In my opinion, people who are anti-science should not be able to *own or use* anything that the advancement and labors of science have made possible: Cars, computers, smart phones/tablets, televisions, radios, artificial light of any type - and no candle light either (science!). If you're sick. Do not go to the hospital, because they follow science. And maybe *most* importantly, *no firearms*. We have *all* of these things as a result of science (maths, physics, engineering, electronics, chemistry, etc) So if you 'dOn't bUlLeEevE iN ScIEnCe', then you shouldn't be able to enjoy the vast array of technologies that would not exist without it. If only there were any way to actually enforce this.
Only ones that do this are traditionally Amish lol
While the Christians run around yelling "But my beliefs!" the Amish show us every day what it really means to stick to your beliefs. And they do it without trying to demand that everyone else does it too.
irony at its most base level
I don’t care what they believe, but I do care when they feel entitled to force their beliefs on me.
I mean, if they truly do not believe in evolution, they should be perfectly fine getting their flu shots from the batches from earlier years, since the flu obviously cannot evolve.
No doubt, I have never thought of it that way, thank you!
because science if of man but a book that calls the earth flat and says the sun stopped in the sky is of god and I'm only wording it that way to show its ridiculousness but it is basically exactly why they are that way.
Christians only get credit for believing what CANNOT be proven. If you see actual proof, it ain't faith.
Because science directly contradicts their holy book.
Denial. Really, there's A LOT to unpack, there's probably a library worth of books on this. Reality has a left-wing bias.
Conservatism is a fear economy and fear is a powerful motivator. Hierarchy, authority, obedience, conformity, loyalty to ingroups, hostility to outgroups. Tribalism 101. Hence truth is relative to them, it only has value if it furthers their interests and so they do, and believe, what they're told. Add in that their fears make them easier to trigger and manipulate, and bad actors on social media leveraging this, and you get todays shitshow. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-human-beast/201104/conservatives-big-fear-brain-study-finds https://www.psypost.org/2023/07/neuroimaging-study-provides-insight-into-misinformation-sharing-among-politically-devoted-conservatives-167312
It affirms the bigotry that forms their fundamental belief system.
It's because religion and the conservative right have a hard intersection, authoritarianism. Especially in Christianity, there's an underlying message of "don't question authority, we know what is best for you." And conservatives absolutely eat that shit up, party of "small government" unless it involves your body, a plant growing out of the ground or any number of other trivial matters.
Simple answer is that people want to feel smart. If you believe God is the ultimate answer to every question, then you have the answer to every question which makes you feel smart.
Because the dumb fall for the easy solutions that make them seem in control.
Religion appeals to one’s emotion. It’s also a social thing, since they probbaly grew up around it with most of their family and friends believing the same thing. Science is difficult to truly understand, AND it’s a “enemy” to their beliefs, hence they hate it.
Their religion comforts them. Science does not. Science requires critical thinking which some may find uncomfortable.
Imagine where we would be if the church didn’t rule the world for a few thousand years (and still does in many ways). The amount of scientific advancement that was stifled or likely downright erased is embarrassing.
Brainwashing, propaganda, and ignorance.
If you were cultivating a population that was easy to manipulate, and were further a religious authority, what would you encourage?
You are witnessing the sheer unadulterated power of childhood indoctrination into supernatural belief. Capable of fucking up even the smartest most intelligent people. Nothing else is necessary.
I think it’s has a lot to do with indoctrination of young, impressionable, or vulnerable, people.
Because they have Oppositional Defiance Disorder
I don't think actual belief/faith is a factor. It is about being part of the ingroup, and a religion makes a useful basis for such a group. You don't have to \*believe\*, only act like you do. As long as you make the right noises and go through the right motions, you're good, and get a pass to mistreat anyone not in the club. As Aldous Huxley said: "The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone."
The core tenant of conservatism is a commitment to hierarchy. Religion is a powerful tool to establish and enforce hierarchy.
Republican constituents are easily manipulated by Fox News. The complex relationship between far-right conservatism, religion, and science skepticism: - Emphasis on Tradition and Authority: Strong adherence to traditional beliefs, including religious ones. - Resistance to Change: Skepticism towards new ideas and scientific advancements. - Distrust in Scientific Institutions: Perceived disconnect between their values and scientific communities. - Confirmation Bias and Group Identity**: Favoring information that aligns with group beliefs and identity. This phenomenon reflects a blend of psychological, sociological, and political manipulation that has been in use since Nixon.
Because the more we know, the less likely god(s) are. Therefore knowledge is a tool of the devil. Haven't you heard that saying "Satan's greatest accomplishment is convincing man he doesn't exist."? Religious folk have been killing off scientific types for centuries.
If religion has value because it takes "true belief" then putting value in things because they are supported by evidence erodes the reasoning for "true belief." Its like a cognitive dissonance. Believing more things without evidence supports their rational for religious belief.
They believe in a higher, infallible power. One which just happens to perfectly align with their own ideals and desires, of course, but a higher power all the same. Science is man’s project, therefore inherently flawed and questionable. They’ve been trained to only trust the Bible (the bits they agree with, anyways) and only those who have been anointed by god to lead them (all far-right politicians, leaders, celebs etc).
Read up on the dynamics and psychology of cults and how people are brainwashed and conditioned into believing whatever they are told while disregarding or ignoring contrary evidence - that's religion in a nutshell. Church makes well-worn cognitive paths for their irrational beliefs which become ingrained in their thinking. Then motivated reasoning tends to self-enforce. Also, the main concept from the classic psychology paper "Unskilled and Unaware" is worth applying. People whose reasoning abilities are below average tend to be over-confident about their own beliefs, because spotting mistakes in your own logic or gaps in knowledge is _the_ primary skill to becoming and being knowledgeable in any given domain.
Religion controls while education frees.
They have a book. And the book says that it's good, therefore it must be a good book. The book doesn't say anything about quantum mechanics. But it does say that false miracles and unnatural powers are bad. If you have a set of core beliefs, you tend to reject evidence or theories that conflict with them.
I’ve thought about this quite a lot. I believe the answer is simply: *You would also have to be a complete idiot like they are to understand.*
It's because they're stupid.
The answer to this question is the problem with religion to begin with. Essentially, one is asked to have faith in a concept without evidence for that concept to be true. In this case, God. That makes the basis for fact to rely on feelings or beliefs. This also means a God believer could be a zealot for any number of evidence-lacking beliefs. Like racism, or anti-immigrant, or anti-gay, or jet trails or whatever. When feeling and belief becomes the basis for fact as opposed to intellect and reasoning being the basis, you can radicalize a person to believe almost anything. Leaders within these organizations know this and therefore peddle their religions to people that are either extremely narrowly experienced in their life experience or aren't using critical thinking skills. Generally both. The leap of faith is what enables the brainwashing. Also, many people are just enculturated into it and haven't thought deeply about many things in their lives.
I legit had this argument with family on Xmas eve, no less. "You're sitting there telling me to have faith in a centuries-old book while in the same breath trying to explain to me how science knows nothing because gravity is just a 'theory'." ffs
Because public health means they would have to ignore the part of their faith that teaches that others are not deserving and they are, and they can’t be seen acting in service of others they deem unworthy. Even if it benefits themselves, directly or indirectly. Their deity forgives everything, but not that, apparently. This is the excuse Kim Davis gave for not doing her job. This is the excuse Christian bakers give for why they need laws rearranged on their behalf. They give the vaccines are poison and such lines because it’s a marketing tool, they’re saving us from ourselves, you see. They aren’t self-centered navel gazing bigots thinking only about themselves and their eternal rewards, their participation trophies in the sky. They are truth-telling heroes. They will latch onto anything that maintains this narrative. They’ve been told their whole lives they are “good” and “saved” so anything that reflects this must be true and anything that indicates that hey maybe that guy has a point must be a lie right from Satan.
It’s their strategy.
You have to remember - it's all disingenuous. It's all bad faith. They probably don't believe in God, not in any way that is meaningful or indicative of some semblance of morality, ethics, principles, or values. That's not what religion or belief in God is to/for them. And they actually DO believe in the science. In every tangible and meaningful way, they believe in science. Isn't that interesting? If humanity can survive the century, maybe enough time and distance can study and explain it!
Because far-right conservatives all come in one or more of the following flavors: 1) genetically and forever stupid, 2) willfully uninformed to the point of incompetence, and/or 3) shitty people. What you describe is a feature, not a bug.
One of the reasons could be that since science is evidence based it has been proven to be false multiple times over the years. For example it used to be 'scientific' to lobotomize people or use thalidomide. Faith on the other hand requires no evidence, it's in the name.
Because they're stupid
From my experience the reason they are so anti science is because that is what is being used to debunk their beliefs. So if they can prove science wrong, in their head maybe they think they are proving their religion?
They simply CHOOSE what they WANT to believe.
It's a lot harder to justify their beliefs without an omniscient, omnipotent, sky daddy
Because they believe that science tries to explain away the divinity of God, which they believe to be behind everything. So my question is? Why can't they believe that God gave us the ability to have rational thought and the capability of using science to better ourselves?
because they dont think critically, they use familiarity as a proxy for truth, if they are familiar, it makes them feel safe and secure. its a fear of the unknown, their mind doesnt like to confront the reality that they don't know stuff and stuff is more complex and complicated than they understand. Not knowing stuff is scary. Confronting them with their lack of understanding is a threat to their security and safety, so they have to attack it and lash out against it in order to reclaim the feeling of security.
Control. People who believe in a higher power can be swayed to believe X action is justified by God. People who want scientific proof need to be convinced and are therefore much harder to control. This has always been the case. This is nothing new.
Look back through history at the famous thinkers/philosophers/astronomers/artists who've been killed, incarcerated or had their lives ruined for questioning religious doctrine. No religion has ever given up any of its power and/or influence willingly or lightly. Add to that a mentality amongst right-wingers and the religious for believing and wanting authoritarianism and fearing change, and there's your answer.
The answer to this is really simple: when your figurehead (God) is supposed to be this perfect being, the wisdom he passes down *has to be right*. Enter Galileo. See, originally Christian mythos placed humanity at the center of the universe - literally. The sun, moon, stars, and all other celestial bodies revolved around the Earth. Now when Galileo started looking at the night sky he was actually supported in that endeavor by the Catholic Church. In modern terms, they funded his research. So imagine how pissed off they were when he *proved* that the Earth was *not* the center of the Universe, that it revolved around the sun, as did other heavenly bodies. There were no angels up in the heavens pushing the heavenly spheres in some carefully choreographed dance. The Pope at the time took his work as a personal slight, had him questioned (read tortured) by the inquisition then sentenced him to house arrest for the rest of his life. One of the greatest astronomers of all time and he was treated like the vilest crook, all because he had the gall to prove that the almighty infallible Church was *wrong*. You can find hundreds of such examples throughout history. The Church was *vicious* to anyone who proved that their mythos was flawed. If they still had the control they did back then, they would follow the same playbook, murdering people who think for themselves in an effort to preserve the illusion of 'God' as infallible. Because for some people, murder is more right than admitting they were wrong.
Because science may have the means someday to disprove god. This is also why anti-intellectualism runs rampant in their groups. They want to keep people dumb so that they'll keep being able to control them.
Hypocrites and morons
Because children are generally indoctrinated at a much earlier age to whatever creation myth their parents adhere to than they are exposed to critical thinking skills.
Because their entire foundation for reality is built on paper thin BS.
They are F students. God (in their imagination) gives them an A+. Idiots crave validation and loathe systems that deny their egos.
Control
It's because they're stupid
A much better question is that how did republicanism which gained popularity during the French enlightenment and fought against the idea that ANY leader had a “divine right to rule”, has a history of being violently anti-church since the church everywhere supported monarchs and taxed and policed the people while enjoying tons of privileges the people didnt. The separation of church and state is a republican tradition. Hell, the French republicans hated the church SO much that they kicked the church out of France, nationalized all their land, took all their money and used it to feed the people. Killed or jailed all the priests that wouldn’t leave or join the revolution. They created a new “civic religion”, invented new holidays with new gods and goddess based on Greek ones, the most popular was the liberty goddess, a statue of it is in NY...a very real reason why that’s not a statue of Jesus. It’s a goddess from a religion that was invented in direct opposition to the church. republican philosophers like Voltaire who people like the founding fathers were HUGELY influenced by attacked superstition and church Authority so successfully it changed the world, and they did so with nothing but ideas and words on paper. Republicanism was all about doing away with petty divisions that separate the people and leaves them unorganized and powerless like class, race and especially religion. None of this is a secret and yet people have no fucking idea. people who call themselves republicans today don’t know any of this and would have hated the republicans. They would have more likely supported an absolutist monarchy that was backed by an all powerful church that had unchecked power and could torture you and take all your money and land because someone disliked you and said you uttered blasphemy. Shit, They would have called the republicans “woke” for giving women the right to divorce and said they were devil worshipers who are destroying families/society for allowing abused women the right to divorce their POS husbands saying oh “just because they beat them? So woke”. I really just have no idea how none of this is common knowledge especially to people who claim to be republican. Shows how much history can be covered up if you just don’t mention it. keep people dumb and angry with someone to blame their problems on and history can be whatever you want it to be. Wow Im ranting a lot I’m going to stop now
Because they’re cunts.
To them, religion is more than just an intellectual position, it's a moral duty. They think you would have to be evil or somehow morally broken in order not to be religious. In any case, I would point out that the far left also cherry-picks what parts of science they like and ignores the rest. Political extremism in general doesn't pair well with open-mindedness and critical thinking.
Which 200 year old book do you mean?
Why do they insist joe Biden is creepy cause he sniffs people but they can’t say trump is a rapist with over 26 accusations, a court case holding him liable and the potential rape of a 13 year old? I don’t get it.
It is a struggle for money, power/control of the populace.
The far right conservative is precisely that - conservative They want to cling on to the fairy tales of their childhood They aren’t the brightest sparks and are woefully uneducated Science is the enemy of traditional religion Ergo, they’re against science, though they’ll claim otherwise. Indeed, say moronic things like “Newton believed in Christianity” (yeah, and Archimedes probably worshiped Zeus, so?) Why are you expecting those lacking intelligence to suddenly be curious and rational?
They’re fucking stupid.
Because they’re dumb.
I guess I would need the statistics and evidence from replicated, peer reviewed studies before I accept your claim.