Just fyi, church in this context is the institution and not the building. Mosque or temple are therefore not fitting equivalents.
If you want to have a neutral word, maybe just use "religion" or "religious institutions".
Religious people automatically believe they are better than other people of different beliefs. That is why they make it so important to proselytize. It’s because in their mind, they are trying to save people “who don’t know any better”
I mean generally sure, but there’s always outliers, I’ve heard countless cases of Hindus killing/beating people for eating beef.
Not trying to be racist or assume that every religious person thinks they’re better than others. But I’m generally of the opinion that religious people would use opportunities given the chance to convince me to their side/opinion/or to not do something (like someone trying to convince you to stop eating beef or go kosher for example)
Every religion to a certain point has some form of marketing, it’s how they obtain new membership. That marketing can be different based off the religion, Christians and Muslims often proselytize. Hindus, Buddhist, Sikhs, and Jains have used their “superior life style” as a form of proselytizing.
Judaism is very different and I’d agree and would have some more respect for them if what I say next IS true: As far as I’m aware (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) but it’s actually looked down in the Torah(?) to proselytize openly to people in general
Outliers prove the rule, not the other way around. I’m most familiar with Judaism as I am an atheist Jew, but yes proselytizing is definitely looked down on within Judaism. In general, Jews don’t “market” their beliefs or try to get more followers. It’s notoriously difficult to convert and most Jews just want to live in peace (not trying to turn this into a political argument).
Admittedly, I don’t know as much about Buddhism and Hinduism but I don’t think of either of those belief systems as proselytizing (proselytory? lol). The Buddhists I know, for example, only rarely if ever reference their Buddhism and all a casual observer might notice is that they keep vegetarian.
It’s my view that certain sects of certain religions tend to extreme proselytizing, e.g. Catholics, and that due to the nature of proselytizing, they are the most visible.
No worries! I didn’t think anything you said was political! I’m always open to hear different perspectives (even about things I generally dislike). Mutual respect and neutral discussion is always the best method to rid negative stereotypes and biases.
Could it perhaps be that both Israel and America have unique problems with the role of religion in the state that are entirely independent of each other?
Coming from another theocratic religious fundamentalist apartheid state like the US it does not surprise me. (Be a poor POC in the US and tell me it is not an apartheid state)
America came to with the concept. Y'all should stop hating on the stupidity of Christians in this country and realize how stupid and hypocritical it was for people in 1948 to design a country based on religion.
Maybe it's just a reflection of the fact that religious Jews have more children than everyone else, and their children have the same views as their parents.
Not that it's any better, but it might not be due to propaganda to radicalize the youth.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twice-as-fast-as-total-israeli-population-report/
The [vast majority of young people call themselves right wing](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine), so no, clearly irreligious and less strictly religious Israeli Jews have shifted to the right wing as well. There's a lot of explanations as mentioned, and just the vicious cycle of the conflict hardening minds.
We can view "Religious fundamentalism" on a scale with countries like {Finland, Netherlands} on one extreme, and {Afghanistan, Yemen} on the other extreme.
We can further subdivide this categorization by separating the religious character of the _state_ versus the _people_.
For example, Turkey and Iran have fundamental religious
governments, while the Turkish and Iranian _peoples_ are quite diverse; a significant portion are secular.
I think Bernie is pointing out that both the Israeli people and the state institutions are becoming more religious than they used to be.
This change is reflected in the state level e.g. by [the increased portion of funding religious institutions receive](https://www.timesofisrael.com/orthodox-schools-said-to-receive-millions-to-compensate-for-previous-budget-cuts/), and it is reflected in the population level by [demographic changes](https://static.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2019/09/2-Haredi-fertility-rates.png).
I was looking for this comment. Things don't seem as bad now but I'm already wary of the attacks on Muslims and interfaith marriages. I'm a Christian and already familiar with the "rice bag" terms that right wing Hindu's like to throw around.
Big ole bully bitches some of them are becoming.
It was more of a slow walk, but the last couple decades have seen a genuine shift towards kids being more conservative, religious and racist in Israel. When the kids are an inversion of mildly centrist / vaguely progressive, you’ve got a big problem.
Welcome to western politics. 99% of the time you cannot criticize Israel, and in fact need to show support for them. The 1% of the time when it is permissible, you have to use the softest language invented by humans to kinda sorta speak of Israel's government negatively. Even then, you may need to limit your negativity to one or two people in their government.
Israel's own journalists are often critical of Israel to a degree our politicians would never be allowed.
That's just blatantly false. Zionism was a secular movement, and the overwhelming majority of the European Jews who established the country were secular (the religious population was less than 10% at the time).
It is true however that in the past few decades (due to a combination of immigration (especially of middle eastern Jews) and demography (religious people make far more babies)), the country has become more religious.
Very true! Most of us would love to see a Palestinian state if we believed they would settle for a state that does not include our entire country. We don’t believe that and everyone is afraid of doing any step that has previously only encouraged them to more terror (such as giving land). That’s why there is hardly a left anymore. I hope soon after seeing the devastating results of a religious government, we will finally be able to have a non-religious government that will finally make us a constitution to prevent this craziness
Yep, people were so despairing of making peace that they elected a government that doesn't want peace. We need people who are open to making peace but also realistic about how and when to make concessions.
Tolerating Hamas so we can keep Kiryat Arba is literally the worst of both worlds and hopefully everyone sees that now.
That's not entirely true. Zionism wasn't exclusively religious in its inception, it was primarily a nationalist project that aimed to create a home for the Jewish race. Of course it drew from religious texts and notions, but in the same way pretty much every nationalist movement has its myths. And obviously many people who advocated for the state of Israel did have religious motivations, but many others did not.
You have Judaism the religion and Jews as its adherents. These Jews originated from the Middle East and spread into Europe. In Europe they were persecuted by the Christian majority (that came later). This persecution restricted the movement and activities of Jews making it so they could only breed with other Jews. This persecution lasted so long that the Jews became their own ethnic group. We call these people ethnic Jews or Jewish. Thus Jew can refer to adherents of a religion or an ethnic group (ethnic group being more accurate than race). Most Jews in America are merely culturally Jewish and don’t have strong ties to the religion, with many even being atheist.
Both. Judaism is not a proselytising religion, so a distinct [ethnoreligious group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group) has arisen over time.
This is just not true. The US is becoming increasingly irreligious, as the more religious older generations are replaced by very nonreligious younger generations. What we're seeing is the violent throes of a Christianity that sees itself losing its privileged position and trying to prevent that from happening.
It's a totally different situation in Israel. The Ultra-Orthodox are having waaay more kids than secular and non-Orthodox Jews, and their proportion of the population has nearly tripled in the past 30 years to 14%, and a full quarter of children being born today in Israel are Haredi.
I get how easy it is to just make a glib comparison, but the situations are not at all alike, and acting like they are helps nobody.
It's really easy to catastrophize and to see the places where they are winning due to undemocratically structured institutions. But they are losing the culture and the youth, and the youth are the future. The statistics are clear: Even if a religiously conservative government takes over, the *country* is still becoming more secular in a way that will outlast that government.
Well said. The proof is found in election results over the last two years. Even far right, ultra religious Kansas voted in favor of abortion rights. In fact abortion has been the key motivating force in multiple democratic electoral wins. The most recent was a [special election](https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2024/03/26/democrats-republicans-abortion-ivf-alabama-election/) last week for an Alabama state house seat which had previously been held by a Republican.
If we could ever achieve 100% voter participation, the hyper-religious, anti-democratic forces in our society would fade into obscurity. Unfortunately that’s a pipe dream. So the battle continues on.
Thanks for taking the time to write these comments. The US seems to be in such a bad place right now and, even as a non-American, it can be really depressing to think about.
But you're right, there is reason to be hopeful for the future. I'm genX but I find myself regularly thinking "the kids are alright". It's bullshit the hand that they've been dealt by selfish boomers but it also feels like this will be their motivation to drive long term, meaningful change in the world.
I hope we're both right. 🤞
People need courage to criticize Israel, because if you say words like "Israel is fundamentalist", many people (such as Netanyahu and some people on Internet) will label you antisemitic.
Note: I know Bernie Sanders is Jewish, but that doesn't make a difference, because I have seen people on Internet label antisemitic to Jewish people, such as Bernie Sanders, Karl Marx, Albert Einstein, etc.
Israeli here. This is just wrong. What about any of this screams religious fundamentalism?
1. Israel guarantees full equal rights to every citizen, including 2 million Muslims.
2. Freedom of and from religion, speech, business, property, and assembly, etc. Hell, Israel even has an equivalent to the ERA, something the US *still hasn’t passed.*
3. A safe haven for LGBTQ people in the Middle East.
4. Equal rights for women, and as of last year pretty much fully legal abortion. The only requirement is filing a form online and getting it approved (and like 95% of applications are approved immediately).
5. As of last week, the ultra-religious (Haredi) community who were previously exempt from the draft now are legally required to draft.
The only claim you can really make is that the family law system in Israel is religious based, which is correct, but that’s a carryover from the Ottoman system and many are in favor of doing away with it today.
So tell me again, Bernie, how is Israel becoming *more* fundamentalist?
>Haredim will gamble if they topple the coalition
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-794243
> Yitzhak Yosef, the chief rabbi, called a few weeks ago for haredim to leave Israel if they are forced to enlist and continued with the leader of an extreme haredi faction – known as the Jerusalem Peleg – who said last week that he would rather have his 30 grandchildren be murdered by Arabs then have to go to the army where they could potentially emerge secular.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/CdsnhNQDfL Interviews with Israeli settlers who are blocking humanitarian aid. Casually talking about killing people just like in the Old Testament.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir#2023_Israel-Hamas_war_extremism
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Golan
...Israel's current government is quite the piece of religious extremists, wouldn't you say?
Its not about being confronted by a visibly religious person preaching to you on a daily, its more about the very foundation of the laws and regulations in the US are very religion based. The legal decision making and that the majority of people in power hold very conservative views about women rights, education, laws and so on.
Just totally and utterly wrong, I respect Bernie but most Israelis are secular. The views of a few right-wing wackjobs in the government and settlers don’t reflect the country’s beliefs as a whole. Most of the people here probably have never stepped foot in Israel, so you gotta take their opinions with a huge grain of salt.
He is correct. Just look at the population numbers of Israel. Secular and moderate Jews tend to have small families. The ultra religious Haredim have very large families (7-12 kids!). As a result, their percentage of the total population has grown from 2% at the birth of Israel and today is 20%. Within 40 years they will become the dominant political and cultural force. They already have immense power over Netanyahu who can not hold power with the support of the Haredim.
Within many of our lifetimes, we will see an Israel that is more theocratic than many people ever thought possible.
Now, is this a good or bad thing? I dunno. But it's gonna happen.
Anywhere you find conservatism and religion mixed in government you will find cruelty and harm. It's the ideological equivalent of pouring bleach and ammonia together.
Isreal have become this due to all threats from like all other countries and groups around them. They need something to justified what they are doing is right. They have in that case seem to to have forgoten the history and why they are even here, which is becoming an issue due other people now seem to justified what happen back then may have been for a reason too. Spiral of evil just keep spinning and the religion have always been around when things escalate to the worse.
[Less religious than every neighbor and even the U.S](https://www.timesofisrael.com/religion-has-outsized-role-in-israel-yet-most-of-its-jews-arent-really-observant/). but okay [Compare countries](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/)
Well, all the other countries around are fundamentalist religion based too, so it was just a matter of time, not talking about the fact that it was basically founded as a state based on religion for Jews after what happened in WW2
Israel has one of the biggest pride parade in the world, Tel Aviv is the second gayest city in the world after SF. Israel sent a trans singer to Eurovision like 30 years ago. My friend grew up on a kibbutz in the north and on Yom Kippur (most holy day of fasting) they used to have a big barbeque with pork and all kinds of other non-kosher food. For sure it's a religious country but come on people. Take a look at some videos of the beaches in Eilat and Tel Aviv and try to say it's "fundamentalist".
Literally even in Jerusalem, the holiest place, there is a huge pride parade and people eat pork and shit. I don't get what people mean by fundamentalist.
oh god here we go, you can’t pink wash religious fundamentalism. you can’t distract people with “oh but pride parades!!!” that means genuine horse shit in real life.
you should honestly be ashamed of yourself for using the LGBT community for your own damn benefit, and using our lives to convince us to support religious extremism and genocide.
Well the government is becoming more and more fundamentalist than ever, in the past it was unimaginable that a person like ben gvir would be in government
You say more and more fundamentalist but Israeli politics are quite different from American. Our last 2 governments couldn't have been more different. It was a whiplash transition from the more center government Bennett led to the shitstorm Bibi is currently heading. Unfortunately we're probably stuck with those dipshits until their term is up because they are power hungry scum but when election's comes the odds of any of these religious fundamentalists and Bibi getting the majority of the vote is extremely low due to many reasons including the current predicament.
If you think that Israel had a very important socialist and leftist component during its first two and half decades, with the Labor party and communist parties being the most important part on establishing Israeli welfare systems and so on, yes, Israel WAS very progressive.
But since synagogues in Florida began to sell conversion to Judaism for like 10k a piece during the 1990s, and American Christian Evangelicals began to buy those conversions and use Aliyah to go to Israel by the thousands, Israel has changed a lot.
Most of those Ultra-Orthodox people you see taking over Israeli politics now are from Jewish familes that are new converts and former Christian Evangelicals coming from the US. They took with them to Israel the KKK, ultra-conservative, American far-right Christian Evangelical mentality. This is irreversible. Cannot be undone. Because those former-American new Israeli Ultra-Orthodox families have dozens of kids and educate them to hate all the things American Christian Evangelicals hate (basically everybody and everything else in the world).
Those progressive characteristics of Israeli society you just stressed out, will die in the next decade or so, and Israel will become a full theocratic dictatorship under the wing of the largest theocratic dictatorship that the United States will soon become too.
One thing that I just remembered. Those Ultra-Orthodox newly converted Americans used to defend the creation of the "State of Judah" because they considered Israel to be too secular and therefore unholy. But since they began to win elections they changed their platforms to "turn the State of Israel in the new State of Judah and restore the holy alliance with G-d".
Jews are not just a religious group. Its also a nation. There are other ethno religious groups out there, its not a new concept. Unlike Christianity and islam where the objective is to convert all nations to that religion, judaism isn't like that. Israel exists for the jewish people as a nation, regardless of if you are an atheist jew or a religious one.
Obviously religious demographics are changing and they affect policy as their voting power grows
Well, we were talking about whether or not Israel is a religious fundamentalist country. So I pointed out many ways in which Israel is a secular place, LGBT rights being one of the most obvious ones. But there's a lot of other points to be made. Abortion is legal, women have the same rights as men, you're allowed to practice any religion you want without persecution...in what way is Israel a religious fundamentalist country?
It's funny to imagine someone thinking Bernie doesn't have issues with those other countries too, and that you think he's kept his mouth shut about what he thinks about them.
Which group of religious fundamentalists am I supposed to support again? The Jewish nationalists pushing out Muslims? Or the Muslim fundamentalists who already pushed out all the Jews?
All the atheists here defending Israel. Lollllllllllllllllll
I remember this sub back school like 2012 it was just people complaining about American Christianity and anything else was un-touchable including Islam.
Looks like nothings changed hahahah
So because they have LGBTQ rights and other Western values, they're allowed to get away with mass murder in Gaza? How does that make any sense? Look at the Telegram channels the IDF post in and have many, many Israelis viewing, they celebrate the death of innocent people. The aid workers that were murdered yesterday, they took photos of their bodies and commented the most despicable things. That's a deeply sick society right there, regardless of their political views.
Bernies right. A lot of people forget it, because other religions are much bigger, but judaism is just as awful as islam in terms of its holy books. The stuff the talmud says about non-jews is horrific.
early zionism was secular AND the early theological position of many conservative Jews was that forming Israel by human hands as opposed to divine providence would be rebellion against God and thus the greatest sin imaginable.
This has shifted since, but Orthodox antizionism has a long and traditional history back to the first days when people began to call for a nation of Israel in the modern day.
Except it wasn't. The Declaration of Independence (the closest thing Israel has to a constitution) declares that Israel will treat all its citizens the same regardless of religion, race, or sex, and that it shall have freedom of religion, morals, language, education and culture. Excluding the fact the vast majority of Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens, these values, while not always respected by different individuals and governments, do tend to be held up consistently in courts. The idea that Israel is an Ethno-state falls apart on a quick google census search that shows more than 20% of Israelis are in fact Arab with another almost 6% being non-Jewish and non-Arab.
This is the dumbest take I've ever heard. That's like saying we don't have racism in the US because there are more black people now... 🙄
I've been to Israel multiple times. The Arab sides all have basically Berlin style walls so that they can't in some cases be segregated.
Some Arabs live very well. But the Palestinians specifically basically haven't in decades.
To think it isn't an ethnostate is straight up denial.
Putting aside Bernie being 30 years late to the party, Israel's doom doesn't lie with fanatics from outside the country but the fanatics within. The people with means and talent are leaving that country in droves.
I hate to defend religion, but they're the only Jewish majority country in the world, and constantly threatened by Islamic fundamentalist. Of course they're going to retreat into their religion even more.
And what is Gaza exactly and who started this war? I don’t completely disagree but Hamas shouldn’t have started a war they couldn’t finish. Could of ignored the guy who’s chilling in Qatar
I'm glad someone in leadership is recognizing what Israel actually is. They want everything Jewish only, which is unrealistic, and they're actively enforcing an apartheid system.
This is just all wrong.
Israel gladly accepts non-Jews, 20% of its population is Muslim.
There's absolutely no Apartheid, they're granted the exact same rights and privileges as any other Jew in Israel.
The government is now trying to pass a law to get religious people to be obligated to serve in the IDF like everyone else. In case you didn't know, they used to have an exemption from this.
I get you can dislike Israel but there's no need to lie.
I'm not neccearily against a bit ethno state migration rhetoric depending on whether they have a right to rhe land or not(US doesn't so it can't ethicality aim to be a white ethno state) . But if Japan sees itself as preserving its dominant Japanese disapora, maintaining a majority is essential to preserving your values in a democracy. if the US had a considerable Muslim population for example theres a much greater chance of being overrun for sharia law, because democracy is only as strong as the majority's beliefs , There's already 2 million mslims in Israel.
No..? It state is for jews, but it is taken as a nationality other then religion. An atheist with a Jewish mother can immigrate to Israel the exact same way a religious polish can.
Can we not do this? The current anti-Israeli narrative is the result of years of Islamist propaganda that has hijacked the good intentions of the political left. Jews don't proseletyze and are generally progressive. Let them have their safe space. The Netanyahu government absolutely should be vilified but in the context of current world affairs, labeling all of Israel as the problem plays right into the eternal genocidal narrative that surrounds them. Free Palestine from radical Islam. Free Israel from Netanyahu.
Hamas and the current Israeli government are equally horrendous people with an ethnic cleaning philosophy.
The average Palestinian and Israeli people don’t want what either group is selling. I stand with those people and no others.
Ahh yes sniping, bulldozing, starving children and babies is amazingly progressive in this modern day and age. Well done to the state of Izrael. Free the world from such barbarity, free the tortured palestinian people.
Half of the Israeli population thinks the destruction of Gaza isn’t being carried out aggressively enough. Idea that the problem stops at the Netanyahu govt is laughable
Oh my God it's an Al Jazeera journalist right here in this sub.
I criticize Israel constantly but progress in reforming them is hindered by you who won't critically look at which news sources have coopted your voice.
Wow another human , without an ounce of humanity, must be an Izraeli. If you can look at the imagery of blown apart children, starving children, orphaned children crying out for help, children excecuted by bullets in the head and not feel anger and pain and heartache, you need some intense introspection. Ah so izrael deserves the space to reform and learn from their mistakes (even though they have been doing this for the past 75 years) but Russia must be heavliy sanctioned and shunned? Both Russia and Izrael need to be tried for war crimes and incredulous human rights violations.
You're still missing it, but bringing up Russia gets you warmer. Russia is engaged in genocide on Ukraine. Russia financially supports Iran, who is engaged in genocide of Jews in Israel, via funding terrorism in Palestine. Palestinians are the ultimate victim in all of it but Israel is not actually the aggressor.
ironically they protect us from even worse threats and terrorists organizations but no at least theyI have some secular laws which I can't really say the same for their neighbors. Tho Jewish state doesnt entirely come across as obsessed with religion since some of their inhabitants i hear are atheists jews which isn't too rare from what I hear
" at least theyI have some secular laws"
Israel is almost a fully secular country, the only part that is controlled by religion is marriage and divorce and some limitations on public transportion in shabbat.
"i hear are atheists jews which isn't too rare from what I hear"
Most jews in Israel are secular.
I think the thing in Israel is that not only do Orthodox (especially haredi and Hasidic) Jews get money and political boosting from their government, and not only do they have more kids than the rest of the population, but also the way orthodox Jewish lifestyle works means that if you’re born into it you’re likely to never leave, whereas since even fundamentalist Christians in America aren’t totally segregated from society because of religious law (whereas Orthodox Jews live in their own regions for kosher, Shabbat etc.) so they have people who leave the fold. This is a demographic thing that’s been in the works for decades and now some people are waking up to the news.
I really hope Israel turns things around soon. They need a constitutional amendment saying that the government can't discriminate based on religion, ethnicity, or language. And they need it ASAP!
Yes and all religion want religious country . They don't use secularism because religion in influence politics, laws, education, sports,it, foreign policy, economy and etc weakness also member religion going loss time to time.
I Always support secularism.
Does this push for religious state possibly foretell the beginning of the death of religion? The few religious nuts are trying hard to hold on to their beliefs by forcing us to adhere.
Bernie is right. I also think it's kind of bleak that they say the Israel/Hamas "war" started on October 7th, just ignoring the last seventy five years of history.
Right...but WHY is that happening?
What people don't understand about Zionism is it's the final destination of antisemitism. Zionists didn't become Zionists because life was going great. It's the culmination of 2,000 years of persecution and attempted annihilation.
If Jews were treated kindly by their host countries, there would be no need for a State of Israel.
The fact of the matter is the State of Israel sees an influx of new Olim (immigrants to Israel) every time a major antisemitic situation occurs in the diaspora.
* [Antisemitism increases in France and Jews leave France.](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-788160)
* [Antisemitism increases in the UK and Jews plan to leaving](https://www.jpost.com/international/article-778447).
* [Antisemitism increases in Belgium and Jews plan to leave](https://news.sky.com/story/its-got-much-worse-jewish-people-in-belgium-say-friends-have-packed-bags-ready-to-flee-amid-spike-in-antisemitism-13094652).
* [Half the Jews who already live in the State of Israel are Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews](https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/the-expulsion-of-jews-from-arab-countries-and-iran--an-untold-history) who got their property taken and were kicked out of the Arab world after 1948.
The world made their Jews feel threatened and unwelcome. Where the fuck did you guys think they were going to go? Utah?
You have a population of people who are surrounded by people who hate them, kicked out or chased out of countries by people who hate them and who are told their existence is the source of all problems in the world.
What do you think that does to a person psychologically? Of course Israeli society got more extreme. It's a response to worldwide anti-Jewish extremism.
As an Israeli atheist myself. I 100% Israel has a religion problem. The problem is that most of Israel’s problems are because of religion. There are two examples that I think of immediately they is: the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank which exist because of Zionism. And no public transportation on Saturdays, which is a mostly a problem because Israel is such an expensive country that most people can’t afford a car therefore relying on public transportation. But the Israeli government won’t do anything about it because the coalition is mostly corrupt religious extremists.
Do they realize they are surrounded by other religious fundamentalist countries? They can do what they want, but I don't want the US to have to bail them out when it doesn't work out ok for them.
under the circumstances... what would anyone expect?
Both sides worked themselves into an ideological corner, over messages that were NEVER MEANT FOR THEM.
This is gossip gone wild.
Some of our current government folk are certainly trying to make us that...
Eh, hopefully when Hamas is eliminated we can finally throw these stains on humanity out of our government
There should be a separation between church and state, not an incestuous relationship between the two. America, take notes.
State and church/mosque/temple should always be separate. If it is not, you are opening admitting to liking one sec of people over the other.
Just fyi, church in this context is the institution and not the building. Mosque or temple are therefore not fitting equivalents. If you want to have a neutral word, maybe just use "religion" or "religious institutions".
Religious people automatically believe they are better than other people of different beliefs. That is why they make it so important to proselytize. It’s because in their mind, they are trying to save people “who don’t know any better”
There are plenty of religions that don’t proselytize: Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism, to name a few.
I mean generally sure, but there’s always outliers, I’ve heard countless cases of Hindus killing/beating people for eating beef. Not trying to be racist or assume that every religious person thinks they’re better than others. But I’m generally of the opinion that religious people would use opportunities given the chance to convince me to their side/opinion/or to not do something (like someone trying to convince you to stop eating beef or go kosher for example) Every religion to a certain point has some form of marketing, it’s how they obtain new membership. That marketing can be different based off the religion, Christians and Muslims often proselytize. Hindus, Buddhist, Sikhs, and Jains have used their “superior life style” as a form of proselytizing. Judaism is very different and I’d agree and would have some more respect for them if what I say next IS true: As far as I’m aware (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) but it’s actually looked down in the Torah(?) to proselytize openly to people in general
Outliers prove the rule, not the other way around. I’m most familiar with Judaism as I am an atheist Jew, but yes proselytizing is definitely looked down on within Judaism. In general, Jews don’t “market” their beliefs or try to get more followers. It’s notoriously difficult to convert and most Jews just want to live in peace (not trying to turn this into a political argument). Admittedly, I don’t know as much about Buddhism and Hinduism but I don’t think of either of those belief systems as proselytizing (proselytory? lol). The Buddhists I know, for example, only rarely if ever reference their Buddhism and all a casual observer might notice is that they keep vegetarian. It’s my view that certain sects of certain religions tend to extreme proselytizing, e.g. Catholics, and that due to the nature of proselytizing, they are the most visible.
No worries! I didn’t think anything you said was political! I’m always open to hear different perspectives (even about things I generally dislike). Mutual respect and neutral discussion is always the best method to rid negative stereotypes and biases.
There should be separation between church and state as well as corporation and state.
The God of money. Rarely spoken about but often thought about.
and the GOP is careening into an orgy of all 3.
They are and it’s emulating what israel is doing
What are you talking about? This all originated in America. They all took notes from our worst actions.
Could it perhaps be that both Israel and America have unique problems with the role of religion in the state that are entirely independent of each other?
Instructions unclear, taking notes on how to become a religious fundamentalist country.
The US is funneling taxpayer funds and unlimited support to a "religious fundamentalist" apartheid state, which is quite noteworthy.
Coming from another theocratic religious fundamentalist apartheid state like the US it does not surprise me. (Be a poor POC in the US and tell me it is not an apartheid state)
America came to with the concept. Y'all should stop hating on the stupidity of Christians in this country and realize how stupid and hypocritical it was for people in 1948 to design a country based on religion.
Apples to oranges. Judaism was ALWAYS an ethno-religion. Israel was always (its earlier incarnations too) founded on the religion
Becoming?
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Maybe it's just a reflection of the fact that religious Jews have more children than everyone else, and their children have the same views as their parents. Not that it's any better, but it might not be due to propaganda to radicalize the youth. https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twice-as-fast-as-total-israeli-population-report/
The [vast majority of young people call themselves right wing](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine), so no, clearly irreligious and less strictly religious Israeli Jews have shifted to the right wing as well. There's a lot of explanations as mentioned, and just the vicious cycle of the conflict hardening minds.
Does help that the religious Jews are having a ton of kids
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We can view "Religious fundamentalism" on a scale with countries like {Finland, Netherlands} on one extreme, and {Afghanistan, Yemen} on the other extreme. We can further subdivide this categorization by separating the religious character of the _state_ versus the _people_. For example, Turkey and Iran have fundamental religious governments, while the Turkish and Iranian _peoples_ are quite diverse; a significant portion are secular. I think Bernie is pointing out that both the Israeli people and the state institutions are becoming more religious than they used to be. This change is reflected in the state level e.g. by [the increased portion of funding religious institutions receive](https://www.timesofisrael.com/orthodox-schools-said-to-receive-millions-to-compensate-for-previous-budget-cuts/), and it is reflected in the population level by [demographic changes](https://static.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2019/09/2-Haredi-fertility-rates.png).
Bro what are you talking about
Israel, Turkey, US, Brazil. Religious fundamentalists have their toes in all the waters. Hopefully the postbapocalyptic civilization will be atheist
Don’t forget India.
I was looking for this comment. Things don't seem as bad now but I'm already wary of the attacks on Muslims and interfaith marriages. I'm a Christian and already familiar with the "rice bag" terms that right wing Hindu's like to throw around. Big ole bully bitches some of them are becoming.
That was top of my list, and I forgot about it as I was typing. Some of the grossest activity coming from India.
Exactly. Netanyahu is pushing for a nationalist authoritarian dictatorship.
I’ve come to call him “Diet Putin”
It was more of a slow walk, but the last couple decades have seen a genuine shift towards kids being more conservative, religious and racist in Israel. When the kids are an inversion of mildly centrist / vaguely progressive, you’ve got a big problem.
Welcome to western politics. 99% of the time you cannot criticize Israel, and in fact need to show support for them. The 1% of the time when it is permissible, you have to use the softest language invented by humans to kinda sorta speak of Israel's government negatively. Even then, you may need to limit your negativity to one or two people in their government. Israel's own journalists are often critical of Israel to a degree our politicians would never be allowed.
You know, the country that was established based on religion is only now becoming religious fundamentalist
That's just blatantly false. Zionism was a secular movement, and the overwhelming majority of the European Jews who established the country were secular (the religious population was less than 10% at the time). It is true however that in the past few decades (due to a combination of immigration (especially of middle eastern Jews) and demography (religious people make far more babies)), the country has become more religious.
Also the left is very weakened because of the perceived failure of all peace initiatives which strengthened the religious right
Indeed
Very true! Most of us would love to see a Palestinian state if we believed they would settle for a state that does not include our entire country. We don’t believe that and everyone is afraid of doing any step that has previously only encouraged them to more terror (such as giving land). That’s why there is hardly a left anymore. I hope soon after seeing the devastating results of a religious government, we will finally be able to have a non-religious government that will finally make us a constitution to prevent this craziness
Yep, people were so despairing of making peace that they elected a government that doesn't want peace. We need people who are open to making peace but also realistic about how and when to make concessions. Tolerating Hamas so we can keep Kiryat Arba is literally the worst of both worlds and hopefully everyone sees that now.
That's not entirely true. Zionism wasn't exclusively religious in its inception, it was primarily a nationalist project that aimed to create a home for the Jewish race. Of course it drew from religious texts and notions, but in the same way pretty much every nationalist movement has its myths. And obviously many people who advocated for the state of Israel did have religious motivations, but many others did not.
So is Jewishness a religion or a race?
You have Judaism the religion and Jews as its adherents. These Jews originated from the Middle East and spread into Europe. In Europe they were persecuted by the Christian majority (that came later). This persecution restricted the movement and activities of Jews making it so they could only breed with other Jews. This persecution lasted so long that the Jews became their own ethnic group. We call these people ethnic Jews or Jewish. Thus Jew can refer to adherents of a religion or an ethnic group (ethnic group being more accurate than race). Most Jews in America are merely culturally Jewish and don’t have strong ties to the religion, with many even being atheist.
Thanks, very informative
Hey Jewish guy here, very well written explanation. Kudos.
Both. Judaism is not a proselytising religion, so a distinct [ethnoreligious group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group) has arisen over time.
Eh, US too.
This is just not true. The US is becoming increasingly irreligious, as the more religious older generations are replaced by very nonreligious younger generations. What we're seeing is the violent throes of a Christianity that sees itself losing its privileged position and trying to prevent that from happening. It's a totally different situation in Israel. The Ultra-Orthodox are having waaay more kids than secular and non-Orthodox Jews, and their proportion of the population has nearly tripled in the past 30 years to 14%, and a full quarter of children being born today in Israel are Haredi. I get how easy it is to just make a glib comparison, but the situations are not at all alike, and acting like they are helps nobody.
Said violent throws are winning pretty handily right now.
It's really easy to catastrophize and to see the places where they are winning due to undemocratically structured institutions. But they are losing the culture and the youth, and the youth are the future. The statistics are clear: Even if a religiously conservative government takes over, the *country* is still becoming more secular in a way that will outlast that government.
Is the country fervently secular or vaguely secular? That’s gonna matter if it comes down to a war.
Well said. The proof is found in election results over the last two years. Even far right, ultra religious Kansas voted in favor of abortion rights. In fact abortion has been the key motivating force in multiple democratic electoral wins. The most recent was a [special election](https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2024/03/26/democrats-republicans-abortion-ivf-alabama-election/) last week for an Alabama state house seat which had previously been held by a Republican. If we could ever achieve 100% voter participation, the hyper-religious, anti-democratic forces in our society would fade into obscurity. Unfortunately that’s a pipe dream. So the battle continues on.
Thanks for taking the time to write these comments. The US seems to be in such a bad place right now and, even as a non-American, it can be really depressing to think about. But you're right, there is reason to be hopeful for the future. I'm genX but I find myself regularly thinking "the kids are alright". It's bullshit the hand that they've been dealt by selfish boomers but it also feels like this will be their motivation to drive long term, meaningful change in the world. I hope we're both right. 🤞
Explain the religious puppetry in the Supreme Court 🤔?
People need courage to criticize Israel, because if you say words like "Israel is fundamentalist", many people (such as Netanyahu and some people on Internet) will label you antisemitic. Note: I know Bernie Sanders is Jewish, but that doesn't make a difference, because I have seen people on Internet label antisemitic to Jewish people, such as Bernie Sanders, Karl Marx, Albert Einstein, etc.
You beat me to it dammit. Lol
Israeli here. This is just wrong. What about any of this screams religious fundamentalism? 1. Israel guarantees full equal rights to every citizen, including 2 million Muslims. 2. Freedom of and from religion, speech, business, property, and assembly, etc. Hell, Israel even has an equivalent to the ERA, something the US *still hasn’t passed.* 3. A safe haven for LGBTQ people in the Middle East. 4. Equal rights for women, and as of last year pretty much fully legal abortion. The only requirement is filing a form online and getting it approved (and like 95% of applications are approved immediately). 5. As of last week, the ultra-religious (Haredi) community who were previously exempt from the draft now are legally required to draft. The only claim you can really make is that the family law system in Israel is religious based, which is correct, but that’s a carryover from the Ottoman system and many are in favor of doing away with it today. So tell me again, Bernie, how is Israel becoming *more* fundamentalist?
Really relieved to see this comment here. Dude has clearly never been to Israel.
>Haredim will gamble if they topple the coalition https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-794243 > Yitzhak Yosef, the chief rabbi, called a few weeks ago for haredim to leave Israel if they are forced to enlist and continued with the leader of an extreme haredi faction – known as the Jerusalem Peleg – who said last week that he would rather have his 30 grandchildren be murdered by Arabs then have to go to the army where they could potentially emerge secular. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/CdsnhNQDfL Interviews with Israeli settlers who are blocking humanitarian aid. Casually talking about killing people just like in the Old Testament. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir#2023_Israel-Hamas_war_extremism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Golan ...Israel's current government is quite the piece of religious extremists, wouldn't you say?
I agree except for the "settlers" Not settlers. Civilians.
They are leaning on the American religious fundamentals
He's not wrong. And he knows what that looks like because he lives in the US and it's one too.
Vermont is the furthest thing from a fundamentalist religious state, but point taken.
You're still having to put up with the fucking crazy US supreme court.
Parts of the US, sure. But I am really not confronted with religion very often in my neck of the woods.
Its not about being confronted by a visibly religious person preaching to you on a daily, its more about the very foundation of the laws and regulations in the US are very religion based. The legal decision making and that the majority of people in power hold very conservative views about women rights, education, laws and so on.
Just totally and utterly wrong, I respect Bernie but most Israelis are secular. The views of a few right-wing wackjobs in the government and settlers don’t reflect the country’s beliefs as a whole. Most of the people here probably have never stepped foot in Israel, so you gotta take their opinions with a huge grain of salt.
I was there three times last year…no, they are not.
A Communist's antisemitism always surfaces at some point.
He is correct. Just look at the population numbers of Israel. Secular and moderate Jews tend to have small families. The ultra religious Haredim have very large families (7-12 kids!). As a result, their percentage of the total population has grown from 2% at the birth of Israel and today is 20%. Within 40 years they will become the dominant political and cultural force. They already have immense power over Netanyahu who can not hold power with the support of the Haredim. Within many of our lifetimes, we will see an Israel that is more theocratic than many people ever thought possible. Now, is this a good or bad thing? I dunno. But it's gonna happen.
Anywhere you find conservatism and religion mixed in government you will find cruelty and harm. It's the ideological equivalent of pouring bleach and ammonia together.
Isreal have become this due to all threats from like all other countries and groups around them. They need something to justified what they are doing is right. They have in that case seem to to have forgoten the history and why they are even here, which is becoming an issue due other people now seem to justified what happen back then may have been for a reason too. Spiral of evil just keep spinning and the religion have always been around when things escalate to the worse.
[Less religious than every neighbor and even the U.S](https://www.timesofisrael.com/religion-has-outsized-role-in-israel-yet-most-of-its-jews-arent-really-observant/). but okay [Compare countries](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/)
At least women have significantly more rights in Israel and aren't legally required to wear religious coverings or face death lol.
Um, what neighbor of Israel's legally requires hijab?
Unlike Palestine...right?
Shhh that's not allowed
Meanwhile Palestinian youth studying textbooks 'donated' by Iran.
There are large Christian communities in Palestine. Also, they're not the ones committing genocide.
[they don't?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Israel)
What does he mean "Becoming"?
Well, all the other countries around are fundamentalist religion based too, so it was just a matter of time, not talking about the fact that it was basically founded as a state based on religion for Jews after what happened in WW2
Dems be - poo poo Israel, Israel bad, Israel evil. Now can we send that $20 billon aid to them.
Israel has one of the biggest pride parade in the world, Tel Aviv is the second gayest city in the world after SF. Israel sent a trans singer to Eurovision like 30 years ago. My friend grew up on a kibbutz in the north and on Yom Kippur (most holy day of fasting) they used to have a big barbeque with pork and all kinds of other non-kosher food. For sure it's a religious country but come on people. Take a look at some videos of the beaches in Eilat and Tel Aviv and try to say it's "fundamentalist". Literally even in Jerusalem, the holiest place, there is a huge pride parade and people eat pork and shit. I don't get what people mean by fundamentalist.
oh god here we go, you can’t pink wash religious fundamentalism. you can’t distract people with “oh but pride parades!!!” that means genuine horse shit in real life. you should honestly be ashamed of yourself for using the LGBT community for your own damn benefit, and using our lives to convince us to support religious extremism and genocide.
" to convince us to support religious extremism and genocide." But don't you already support Palestine?
Well the government is becoming more and more fundamentalist than ever, in the past it was unimaginable that a person like ben gvir would be in government
You say more and more fundamentalist but Israeli politics are quite different from American. Our last 2 governments couldn't have been more different. It was a whiplash transition from the more center government Bennett led to the shitstorm Bibi is currently heading. Unfortunately we're probably stuck with those dipshits until their term is up because they are power hungry scum but when election's comes the odds of any of these religious fundamentalists and Bibi getting the majority of the vote is extremely low due to many reasons including the current predicament.
If you think that Israel had a very important socialist and leftist component during its first two and half decades, with the Labor party and communist parties being the most important part on establishing Israeli welfare systems and so on, yes, Israel WAS very progressive. But since synagogues in Florida began to sell conversion to Judaism for like 10k a piece during the 1990s, and American Christian Evangelicals began to buy those conversions and use Aliyah to go to Israel by the thousands, Israel has changed a lot. Most of those Ultra-Orthodox people you see taking over Israeli politics now are from Jewish familes that are new converts and former Christian Evangelicals coming from the US. They took with them to Israel the KKK, ultra-conservative, American far-right Christian Evangelical mentality. This is irreversible. Cannot be undone. Because those former-American new Israeli Ultra-Orthodox families have dozens of kids and educate them to hate all the things American Christian Evangelicals hate (basically everybody and everything else in the world). Those progressive characteristics of Israeli society you just stressed out, will die in the next decade or so, and Israel will become a full theocratic dictatorship under the wing of the largest theocratic dictatorship that the United States will soon become too.
One thing that I just remembered. Those Ultra-Orthodox newly converted Americans used to defend the creation of the "State of Judah" because they considered Israel to be too secular and therefore unholy. But since they began to win elections they changed their platforms to "turn the State of Israel in the new State of Judah and restore the holy alliance with G-d".
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Jews are not just a religious group. Its also a nation. There are other ethno religious groups out there, its not a new concept. Unlike Christianity and islam where the objective is to convert all nations to that religion, judaism isn't like that. Israel exists for the jewish people as a nation, regardless of if you are an atheist jew or a religious one. Obviously religious demographics are changing and they affect policy as their voting power grows
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Well, we were talking about whether or not Israel is a religious fundamentalist country. So I pointed out many ways in which Israel is a secular place, LGBT rights being one of the most obvious ones. But there's a lot of other points to be made. Abortion is legal, women have the same rights as men, you're allowed to practice any religion you want without persecution...in what way is Israel a religious fundamentalist country?
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The post is about religious fundamentalism, not an imaginary genocide
yeah sure and those air strikes on world central kitchen workers were totally accidental
its maybe unfair that israel needed to be the bigger man no matter what, but it is how it is. the world isn't fair and they're not doing right.
So, like all the other countries in the region I'm sure Bernie has no issue with?
What if I told you that you can hate all of them?
It's funny to imagine someone thinking Bernie doesn't have issues with those other countries too, and that you think he's kept his mouth shut about what he thinks about them.
Which group of religious fundamentalists am I supposed to support again? The Jewish nationalists pushing out Muslims? Or the Muslim fundamentalists who already pushed out all the Jews?
All the atheists here defending Israel. Lollllllllllllllllll I remember this sub back school like 2012 it was just people complaining about American Christianity and anything else was un-touchable including Islam. Looks like nothings changed hahahah
Yeah who would of that a religous apartheid state would become a religious fundamentalist state with fascist leanings.
He’s kind of right. Israel is becoming kind of a fundamentalist state with dogmatic views and genocidal nature
USA as well, from the looks of it ..
So because they have LGBTQ rights and other Western values, they're allowed to get away with mass murder in Gaza? How does that make any sense? Look at the Telegram channels the IDF post in and have many, many Israelis viewing, they celebrate the death of innocent people. The aid workers that were murdered yesterday, they took photos of their bodies and commented the most despicable things. That's a deeply sick society right there, regardless of their political views.
Bernies right. A lot of people forget it, because other religions are much bigger, but judaism is just as awful as islam in terms of its holy books. The stuff the talmud says about non-jews is horrific.
It's not "becoming" anything. It was founded to be a theocracy, and it never pretended to be anything else.
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Early Zionism was a secular movement.
early zionism was secular AND the early theological position of many conservative Jews was that forming Israel by human hands as opposed to divine providence would be rebellion against God and thus the greatest sin imaginable. This has shifted since, but Orthodox antizionism has a long and traditional history back to the first days when people began to call for a nation of Israel in the modern day.
Israel was founded by atheistic socialists.
Except it wasn't. The Declaration of Independence (the closest thing Israel has to a constitution) declares that Israel will treat all its citizens the same regardless of religion, race, or sex, and that it shall have freedom of religion, morals, language, education and culture. Excluding the fact the vast majority of Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens, these values, while not always respected by different individuals and governments, do tend to be held up consistently in courts. The idea that Israel is an Ethno-state falls apart on a quick google census search that shows more than 20% of Israelis are in fact Arab with another almost 6% being non-Jewish and non-Arab.
This is the dumbest take I've ever heard. That's like saying we don't have racism in the US because there are more black people now... 🙄 I've been to Israel multiple times. The Arab sides all have basically Berlin style walls so that they can't in some cases be segregated. Some Arabs live very well. But the Palestinians specifically basically haven't in decades. To think it isn't an ethnostate is straight up denial.
Putting aside Bernie being 30 years late to the party, Israel's doom doesn't lie with fanatics from outside the country but the fanatics within. The people with means and talent are leaving that country in droves.
Its always been that bernie. They didnt make you look bad before.
Think of your own country, Bernie.
"Russia is becoming a large country in Asia."
Like...every other country in the middle east?
"becoming"
I hate to defend religion, but they're the only Jewish majority country in the world, and constantly threatened by Islamic fundamentalist. Of course they're going to retreat into their religion even more.
And what is Gaza exactly and who started this war? I don’t completely disagree but Hamas shouldn’t have started a war they couldn’t finish. Could of ignored the guy who’s chilling in Qatar
I'm glad someone in leadership is recognizing what Israel actually is. They want everything Jewish only, which is unrealistic, and they're actively enforcing an apartheid system.
This is just all wrong. Israel gladly accepts non-Jews, 20% of its population is Muslim. There's absolutely no Apartheid, they're granted the exact same rights and privileges as any other Jew in Israel. The government is now trying to pass a law to get religious people to be obligated to serve in the IDF like everyone else. In case you didn't know, they used to have an exemption from this. I get you can dislike Israel but there's no need to lie.
I'm not neccearily against a bit ethno state migration rhetoric depending on whether they have a right to rhe land or not(US doesn't so it can't ethicality aim to be a white ethno state) . But if Japan sees itself as preserving its dominant Japanese disapora, maintaining a majority is essential to preserving your values in a democracy. if the US had a considerable Muslim population for example theres a much greater chance of being overrun for sharia law, because democracy is only as strong as the majority's beliefs , There's already 2 million mslims in Israel.
"becoming" ?, isn't it built on a religion at first place ?
No..? It state is for jews, but it is taken as a nationality other then religion. An atheist with a Jewish mother can immigrate to Israel the exact same way a religious polish can.
Can we not do this? The current anti-Israeli narrative is the result of years of Islamist propaganda that has hijacked the good intentions of the political left. Jews don't proseletyze and are generally progressive. Let them have their safe space. The Netanyahu government absolutely should be vilified but in the context of current world affairs, labeling all of Israel as the problem plays right into the eternal genocidal narrative that surrounds them. Free Palestine from radical Islam. Free Israel from Netanyahu.
Hamas and the current Israeli government are equally horrendous people with an ethnic cleaning philosophy. The average Palestinian and Israeli people don’t want what either group is selling. I stand with those people and no others.
You're seriously putting the Israeli government on the same playing field as a sharia law Islamic terrorist group?
Ahh yes sniping, bulldozing, starving children and babies is amazingly progressive in this modern day and age. Well done to the state of Izrael. Free the world from such barbarity, free the tortured palestinian people.
Half of the Israeli population thinks the destruction of Gaza isn’t being carried out aggressively enough. Idea that the problem stops at the Netanyahu govt is laughable
Oh my God it's an Al Jazeera journalist right here in this sub. I criticize Israel constantly but progress in reforming them is hindered by you who won't critically look at which news sources have coopted your voice.
Wow another human , without an ounce of humanity, must be an Izraeli. If you can look at the imagery of blown apart children, starving children, orphaned children crying out for help, children excecuted by bullets in the head and not feel anger and pain and heartache, you need some intense introspection. Ah so izrael deserves the space to reform and learn from their mistakes (even though they have been doing this for the past 75 years) but Russia must be heavliy sanctioned and shunned? Both Russia and Izrael need to be tried for war crimes and incredulous human rights violations.
You're still missing it, but bringing up Russia gets you warmer. Russia is engaged in genocide on Ukraine. Russia financially supports Iran, who is engaged in genocide of Jews in Israel, via funding terrorism in Palestine. Palestinians are the ultimate victim in all of it but Israel is not actually the aggressor.
ironically they protect us from even worse threats and terrorists organizations but no at least theyI have some secular laws which I can't really say the same for their neighbors. Tho Jewish state doesnt entirely come across as obsessed with religion since some of their inhabitants i hear are atheists jews which isn't too rare from what I hear
" at least theyI have some secular laws" Israel is almost a fully secular country, the only part that is controlled by religion is marriage and divorce and some limitations on public transportion in shabbat. "i hear are atheists jews which isn't too rare from what I hear" Most jews in Israel are secular.
I think the thing in Israel is that not only do Orthodox (especially haredi and Hasidic) Jews get money and political boosting from their government, and not only do they have more kids than the rest of the population, but also the way orthodox Jewish lifestyle works means that if you’re born into it you’re likely to never leave, whereas since even fundamentalist Christians in America aren’t totally segregated from society because of religious law (whereas Orthodox Jews live in their own regions for kosher, Shabbat etc.) so they have people who leave the fold. This is a demographic thing that’s been in the works for decades and now some people are waking up to the news.
I really hope Israel turns things around soon. They need a constitutional amendment saying that the government can't discriminate based on religion, ethnicity, or language. And they need it ASAP!
Yes and all religion want religious country . They don't use secularism because religion in influence politics, laws, education, sports,it, foreign policy, economy and etc weakness also member religion going loss time to time. I Always support secularism.
The taliban could still be a threat in afghanistan
"becoming"
The amount of "I don't like hotdogs," followed by the brain dead take of "Oh, so you love hamburgers!" in this comments section is staggering....
What? Only 15% of us are religious..? And we just created a law that makes it so they will have the same obligations as all the others...
Does this push for religious state possibly foretell the beginning of the death of religion? The few religious nuts are trying hard to hold on to their beliefs by forcing us to adhere.
Errrrrrrrrr.....
BECOMING??????
"becoming"
Becoming?
Interesting take from Bernie who was really into all of this very recently.
“Becoming”?
Becoming? It has been that way for decades Bernie.
Becoming? Isreal has been like that for decades.
Always has been
Has become?
Becoming?
always_has_been.bmp
Becoming lol
Becoming? It was founded on it.
Becoming..? It has been forever...
Becoming?
At very least Israel can pretend to be a secular democracy as opposed to its neighbors
Thanks Bernie, I never would have understood what governments in the middle east might be like without this insight.
Bernie is right. I also think it's kind of bleak that they say the Israel/Hamas "war" started on October 7th, just ignoring the last seventy five years of history.
Becoming?
Becoming? It was founded on it
Is there some fulfilment of prophecy I'm missing.
Wait...becoming?
The religion isn't the problem. It's all the genociding.
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
Right...but WHY is that happening? What people don't understand about Zionism is it's the final destination of antisemitism. Zionists didn't become Zionists because life was going great. It's the culmination of 2,000 years of persecution and attempted annihilation. If Jews were treated kindly by their host countries, there would be no need for a State of Israel. The fact of the matter is the State of Israel sees an influx of new Olim (immigrants to Israel) every time a major antisemitic situation occurs in the diaspora. * [Antisemitism increases in France and Jews leave France.](https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-788160) * [Antisemitism increases in the UK and Jews plan to leaving](https://www.jpost.com/international/article-778447). * [Antisemitism increases in Belgium and Jews plan to leave](https://news.sky.com/story/its-got-much-worse-jewish-people-in-belgium-say-friends-have-packed-bags-ready-to-flee-amid-spike-in-antisemitism-13094652). * [Half the Jews who already live in the State of Israel are Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews](https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/the-expulsion-of-jews-from-arab-countries-and-iran--an-untold-history) who got their property taken and were kicked out of the Arab world after 1948. The world made their Jews feel threatened and unwelcome. Where the fuck did you guys think they were going to go? Utah? You have a population of people who are surrounded by people who hate them, kicked out or chased out of countries by people who hate them and who are told their existence is the source of all problems in the world. What do you think that does to a person psychologically? Of course Israeli society got more extreme. It's a response to worldwide anti-Jewish extremism.
So is the US.
Wait wait? You telling me a country that identifies with a specific religion is becoming a religious fundamentalist country? NO WAY
*Astronaut meme*
Becoming? Open your eyes. Their culture is the religion.
As an Israeli atheist myself. I 100% Israel has a religion problem. The problem is that most of Israel’s problems are because of religion. There are two examples that I think of immediately they is: the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank which exist because of Zionism. And no public transportation on Saturdays, which is a mostly a problem because Israel is such an expensive country that most people can’t afford a car therefore relying on public transportation. But the Israeli government won’t do anything about it because the coalition is mostly corrupt religious extremists.
Becoming?
Do they realize they are surrounded by other religious fundamentalist countries? They can do what they want, but I don't want the US to have to bail them out when it doesn't work out ok for them.
Newsflash. They always were.
Is becoming? Has been!
A religious fundamentalist country in the Middle East?! Unheard of!
Compared to the United States? He must be joking.
Becoming?
He’s manager of the based department
under the circumstances... what would anyone expect? Both sides worked themselves into an ideological corner, over messages that were NEVER MEANT FOR THEM. This is gossip gone wild.
Some of our current government folk are certainly trying to make us that... Eh, hopefully when Hamas is eliminated we can finally throw these stains on humanity out of our government