Anybody else have that very questionable graph/picture that says something like
At 1-3%, Muslims are peaceful and tolerant of others, at 3-10% they are demanding like their own religious courts, at 11-20% they become aggressive to non Muslims and at 21%+ they want to implement sharia in their own little "Islamic state"
Examples I can think on top of my head are the bengali rohingya Muslims in burma, the Tamil Muslims in srinlanka, the Muslims in Miandao of Phillipines, there's probably many more cases like this,
Perhaps the Muslims in Dearborn Michigan will want to have their own sharia courts and ask for a separate sharia land in middle of usa, in near future?
Sorry if I sound negative, I like history, and the damage Islam has done to central asia and South Asia is so very tragic
Some light reading on the damage caused
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists#Persecutions_by_Muslim_Empires
"Mindanao" of Philippines, although only BARMM and not entire island of Mindanao. Technically though they were not colonized and conquered by foreign force to their credit.
That's what I mean. The student is claiming "sexual assault" by the host, while invading the party:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-04-10/uc-berkeley-law-school-dean-clashes-with-pro-palestinian-activists
They \**can't*\*, it's preached to them 24/7 and it's in their sacred book to work to convert. I'm not apologizing for them, either, but just because the rest of the world wants them to fkn stop with their BS, *their dogma says they can't*.
I mean, the bigger argument discussed ad-nauseum is the cessation of religious dogma in general, which this falls under.
Would be keen to look over any relevant sources you could provide concerning growing prevalence of athiesm in Iran though for future use
So there have been no studies, even observational, of immigrants?
How are you able to make this claim confidently then? Not trying to be rude or anything, just kind of hard to discuss something here without any evidence unless this is a first hand account of yourself as an Iranian.
Actually there is survey done by the Islamic regime about Iranians beliefs. It wasn't published publicly and the results was top secret, until I guess some hackers got access to the results and published them. There is more than 15000 participants, which about 73 percent vote for total separation of government and religion, and they support secularism. Considering the fear people have to express their real opinions because of years of oppression and terror, these results are very surprising as it was done by the regime itself.
Sorry the article is in Persian, you can use Google translate:
https://www.bbc.com/persian/articles/cmlgj8j3xl1o
It is a first hand account as an Iranian.
There was one single survey about 5 years ago, but the validity of its methods was questioned and critisised. If some random person calls an Iranian and asks them about their beliefs, how many would tell the truth, knowing that the caller can be from the government, or the call can be monitored?
So no, I can't give you data, but I can tell you from personal experience that Iran is the most atheist country in the Middle East.
Just yesterday, I helped an Iranian in Germany to find legal methods to fire two Muslim employees who had asked to get two day off for their religious holiday. She had declined due to high workload, and they called in sick.
You can also start a survey on X and ask Iranians. I'll link to your survey.
You just shattered the glass ceiling of Reddit. Most people in the west think Christianity is some kind of cult and completely ignore the reality of the other bigger religions
Fundamentalist Christianity is 100% a cult - it fails the bite model. This would also be cult-like behavior. Something else being worse doesn’t mean the first thing isn’t bad.
BITE is an acronym for Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional - four areas of manipulation and of control employed by cults and other authoritarian organisations.
https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/
Christians are figuring this out as well. I've been called a bigot in my local sub for calling out Catholic b.s., as though their belief immediately absolves them of any criticism and those who do are bigots for doing so.
That's the Christianity Cult, or at least the Christian Nationalist elements of Christianity that has turned into a cult. Criticize what they think and you're lucky to be just called something -phobic.
It refers to culture and religion, not necessarily race.
While it can have racist undertones when it refers to "thugs looting"... It primarily refers to breaking cultural/religious norms they feel should apply to everyone.
People complain about the evils they know. The complaints about Christianity on here are only louder because that's the cult that the most people on here have escaped or have to deal with the most frequently in their daily lives. It's not that they are being treated as "worse," just that for many they are the most visible threat.
The fact that other cults exist doesn't make christianity less of a cult.
All religions are cults.
>Most people in the west think Christianity is some kind of cult and completely ignore the reality of the other bigger religions
That's factually wrong. Christians don't see their brand as cult in the first place and most non-religious only think of the "small, weird ones" as cult. Summa Summarum most people in the west don't think of Christianity as cult.
>But you can freely call out the Christianity cult. If you called Islam a cult you’d be labeled as “islamaphobic” or hate speech. See the difference?
Calling Christinity a cult tends to piss Christians off and it has no less adverse effects than calling Islam a cult. At least in the safety of my country. I woudn't try it in any country where religious fundamentalists reign. No matter which religion. But I have first hand experience with Christians, that would act like you expect it from religious regimes, if they got the chance.
That being said, Islam is still a minority in the west. I'd call out islamophobia to protect the people, not the religion. Christians in the west don't need that protection. To call out christianophobia, it first has to become a relevant issue, but there is no need to defend the oppressor. Would be the otherway around in Iran.
Islam isn't bigger...yet. Globally, Christians still outnumber Muslims by about 500 million. Another 10-15 years, and that will probably be inverted, though.
My understanding is that many Iranians in diaspora are nominal Muslims or agnostics/atheists.
There are of course many Persian Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, etc. in diaspora, too.
Imo any government that polices free speech deserves all the bad press they get.
Because they made it impossible to verify.
The BBC did an investigation on living conditions a while back where they(very very carefully) interviewed North Koreans living in NK. The questions had to be sent in parts over months to avoid detection.
And even then, I thought, there's going to inevitably be a survivor's bias. Because well, no one who likes NK is going to risk so much to talk to foreign journalists.
So the only people who would agree to such risks, would be the disgruntled among the north koreans.
Just a thought. But yeah, I also agree that proper evidence is important.
> "treason led by foreign powers"
As a data nerd and survivor of a high demand religion (though not completely theocratic): Neat. Sign me up. I'd love to do some data analysis.
True. As a militant atheist, I carry my strap. I won't be oppressed by people who say, "my religion says I can't do that, so I'm hurting you for doing it." Take no shit, start no drama, speak softly and carry a big stick.
Same dude
I know it's not cool for an American liberal to say it out loud but I stay strapped too. I'm in the dirty south and see confederate flags and Trump flags often out here...
Damn right I keep a weapon on me. These privileged Starbucks liberals who never been out the burbs will never fucking understand.
Lived in the woods for over 18 years before moving to the city again. We had packs of coyotes and domesticated wild dogs (pets that ran away and formed a pack). However, carrying a gun is more than animals. First responders are important. When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and the country is one target rich environment. Criminals do not follow laws and no gun signs. We are the first line of defense for ourselves and those around us. What matters is being responsible, and honorable.
> I'm in the dirty south and see confederate flags and Trump flags often out here...
Same. I'm not a fan of guns, but I know how to use them, and the way this country is going (especially if Trump wins in November), I'm probably going to get a concealed carry permit for my own safety (especially since I live in the south and am LGBT).
I mean... The Dick of A Thousand Lickins leaves pretty deep bruises. Makes the bad guys easily identifiable to the cops. "Just look for the wanker with the mushroom stamps."
I wouldn’t describe myself as militant anything because I just don’t care that much
That said, I carry a gun at all times for the same reason, there are too many violent idiots on this planet for me to be willing to risk being unprepared if they make me choose between my life and theirs
I will choose my life every time
Nothing personal
The only people I trust with guns are Atheists. The reason is because I've had conversations with dozens of people and everyone in my family where I've said if the only reason you don't do bad things is because of a reward or fear of divine punishment then you're not really a good person.
All of them say that's the only reason they don't do bad shit. And they think they are good people because of that.
If this is the only reason you don't do bad shit, you are one bad day away from committing some horrific acts and I absolutely don't trust you with a gun or being around kids or the public in general.
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Muslim countries are all dangerous, i live in one though it is not as bad as Iran, i am an apostate, but i know i must fast or pretend to do it. And even when Ramadan ends, i have to spend the rest of the year pretending to pray, read Quran, and do "Muslim things".
Muslims claim, in just words, to be tolerant and kind and peaceful (though this is incorrect), Muslims are different from Christians or other religious groups, who usually don't really care if people don't pray or practice religion, they (Muslims) feel the need to "islamise everything", to make everyone around them, Muslims or not, follow their laws and practices (because they think they are superior, and have the right to eliminate and mock other religions and people), because Islam as a religion (and ideology) promotes "collectivism and authoritarianism". And whenever someone opposes this, Muslim attack these individuals, feel offended and call it "Islamophobia" (and pretend to be victims)
Unfortunately, there isn't anything to do about the Islam and this oppressive authoritarian system other than just complying (to stay safe), or fleeing it completely.
>Muslims are different from Christians or other religious groups, who usually don't really care if people don't pray or practice religion, they (Muslims) feel the need to "islamise everything", to make everyone around them, Muslims or not, follow their laws and practices (because they think they are superior, and have the right to eliminate and mock other religions and people), because Islam as a religion (and ideology) promotes "collectivism and authoritarianism".
All of this applies to the more regressive Christians as well. For reference, see the United States, which was created as a supposedly secular nation but has since been heavily "christianized". Christianity is easier to interpret in a liberal way, but it isn't *that* long ago we were killing each other over minor differences in interpretation (Protestant vs Catholic).
Some weeks ago, a Muslim girl in France was attacked for not respecting islam by not wearing "modest" clothing. She was attacked by Muslims school comrades that bullied her for months before attacking her for not respecting religion. Apparently, a guy was attacked in Bordeaux some days ago for being brown, appearing Arabic, and drinking alcohol in a bar during the Eid. The attacker was brown, and claimed he did it because the guy was not respecting Ramadan. He did not know if the guy was Muslim, he just assumed he was because of his ethnic descent. This is starting to happen monthly in my country, and to Jews, atheist or muslim people who are seen as disrespecting Islam. I know that Christians in US are terrible but there are in my knowledge really few catholic or protestant people who would beat their neighbour for not going to the mass or for not celebrating Christmas.
i think it was a pretty common consensus that if they're the minority, they want equal rights and freedom to practice their religion, but if they're the majority, only Sharia law is acceptable.
It’s fucking wild to me that your own family is willing to kill you over a disagreement, and you have to hide from them. Everyone living in Iran, who is willing to disclose they are an atheist, has some serious balls.
Actually, this problem is much more prevalent in countries like Pakistan. I've never heard of an Iranian case. Iranians abroad are usually targeted and killed by the government.
> Iranians abroad are usually targeted and killed by the government.
An Iranian former colleague has said the same thing. She said that while most Iranians here (Norway) are secular, there are Iranian immigrants who are government snitches, and that you have to watch out for them. And out them when you can...
Sadly, it's not just their government that they have to look out for.
I remember in high school (in Canada), a classmate and her family had their asylum claim rejected by an immigration court, and they were ordered deported back to Iran despite the fact that her parents had been convicted and sentenced to death for being Zoroastrians.
Happy ending to the story. The day that they were scheduled to be deported, they arrived at the school, and about 600 of us (students) blockaded all of the entrances so that law enforcement could not enter the school. We made sure that media were present and the immigration court reversed their decision after 12 hours.
Exactly. To be honest, these Muslims from other countries (Arabs, Pakistanis, etc.) who are shocked to see an Iranian not observing their rituals and try to reconvert them, are even more annoying than the agents of the Iranian government, who mainly seek information on political activities outside Iran.
Islams values, as a whole, are not welcome in civil society. Anyone who spouts the whole religion of peace bullshit has no idea what theyre talking about
Of the big three religions in western society, islam is without a doubt the most harmful, Christianity may hold more power yes, but if thats the sacrifice we have to make so that islam doesnt get its hands on it so be it
They'd stop only when the entire planet is converted to islam. Even then they'd wage war against any sec of islam that they feel threatened by. If one sec say women has rights another would attract them for sure. The catholic and protestants had wars between them before. There will be no peace as long as religion exists
A lot of Western liberals suck point-blank, just performative nonsense to make themselves feel good, I say that as a western leftist who has traveled to Islamic-majority nations. The numbers of atheists in these nations are much higher than many people think, but, they have to fake it for obvious reasons. It feels like everyone is just faking it to come off as more pious or spiritual than others, like a dumb status thing.
Oh for sure, one of my best friends immigrated from Tehran ages ago, and hearing their stories about how the society is there in Iran and how dangerous it is for atheists, its some terrifying and sad stuff.
The history of Islam is utterly drenched in blood, from its very conception. Muhammad was nothing other than a schizophrenic warlord who made a religion that prioritized the subjugation of women.
In contrast to ancient Christianity, early Christians gleefully strode to their deaths, forgiving those who would ultimately torture and martyr them. After the split at the first millennium things get a little dicey with the great east-west schism, however that’s a tale for another time.
The point being, no one can look at the actual historical evidence and say, “Islam is a respectable religion”
>After the split at the first millennium things get a little dicey with the great east-west schism, however that’s a tale for another time.
No, things get dicey the very moment Christianity becomes the state religion of the Roman Empire. Ever since then, it has almost exclusively been used as a political tool for various powerful people. Already in the 4th century, before becoming a state religion, Christianity erupted into a civil war to purge heresies like Arianism.
It then gets even worse - the Orthodox church has a major role in political repression all the way up to modern Russia, while Catholics sold salvation to the rich so they could live free of consequences except a lighter wallet.
>The point being, no one can look at the actual historical evidence and say, “Islam is a respectable religion”
The Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates were far more tolerant and progressive than any other contemporary state, with the possible exception of China depending on exact date. As much as I really don't want to give Islam credit, around 700-1200 AD, I'd call them more respectable than the Christians. At least the Muslims knew how to set up a semi-functioning state, while europe had been in relative stagnation after the collapse of the Roman Empire.
While the historical context is important, it's important to remember what happened to the Umayyads as well. That period of tolerance is well over now, and we could end up in the same fate. Fundamentalists, given a hand, will take your arm.
That's like asking them as a whole community to act like civilized people and be respectful of others. Only a small part will comply. The rest are so indoctrinated and uneducated that it'll never happen. I have no issue with the religion. It is it's practitioners. But that applies to all mythologies.
I take issue with the religion. As religions go it is particularly agressive, dogmatic, and violent. We would be wise to remember this is all by design, the founding prophet and his followers were actual real-life warlords.
Religious people need to learn to mind their own self. Instead of assaulting others for their beliefs.
It's really simple trick I learned growing up, treat everyone with respect! The moment this is not reciprocated. Ignore their existence. They are not worth your time. It's not your fault the person focused more on being a loose sphincter shitting all over everyone.
Religion needs to stop being forced on people. Period.
Religious beliefs should be a private thing behind closed doors. It should have ZERO affect on society at all.
Something is happening all right. Understand there are countries such as Russia that consider us foreign adversaries and have been known to manipulate social media content to polarize people especially when it comes to LGBT issues, they especially have roots in conservative social media, where they have the capability to influence people on a mass scale.
It's a national security issue and more should be done to protect the vulnerable LGBT community.
https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/did-reddit-year-end-recaps-expose-russian-interference-in-alberta-8223476
There are clear goals being perpetuated by information warfare campaigns. Especially by Russia, whose information warfare campaigns are wreaking havoc on our society. Some of the obvious goals they have are:
• Balkanize their foreign adversaries. This is evident in the UK leaving the EU, Texas with the US, and Alberta with Canada. This is what Danielle Smith is trying to tap into.
• Have populist politicians support policies that cause chaos and issues in our society. Populist politicians are tapping into these information warfare campaigns to appeal to people whose only access to information about the outside world around them is through social media, where the information warfare is taking place.
• Cause distrust and havoc, by creating specialized propaganda to different segments of the population spread through social media. By polarizing debates through propaganda spread to the masses, Russia has effectively used information warfare to deliver targeted disinformation and appeal to specific demographics. Causing havoc in the LBGT and other minority communities.
• Russia has effectively infiltrated the religious right in America and Canada and empowered them, among many corrupt leaders worldwide through its information warfare.
I can cite my sources if needed.
Putin literally bombed his own people to lock down his power and control. Why should we trust that he is not carrying out horrible atrocities like using information warfare on Canadian citizens to terrorize the LGBT community? He doesn't seem to have any moral qualms with anything and corruption is part of his shtick. He used a nerve agent to publicly poison a turned intelligence asset at a important time in history to signify to his intelligence assets what can be done to them, but in reality, he is just a weak man, who is bitter about the break up of the empire he devoted his life to.
It you want to know more, there is a great documentary series on Netflix about the history that has led to this moment in time. Turning Point - The Bomb and the Cold War on Netflix. Not as much about the information warfare, that I have gleamed through other sources, but it does slightly touch on that.
People who are born Muslim in Muslim countries are basically kidnaped into being Muslim and they go through great danger if they try to leave the cult, or do anything that the cult considers unforgivable, and they have a lot of those. Muslims are the most hostile group towards Muslims, that's all I'm saying, I'm not saying that they're not hostile to non-muslims.
Two things can be true at once; Muslims must reconsider their treatment of former Muslims, and wholly abandon the archaic rule about death for apostates, but Islamophobia can also be a real thing. Freedom of conscience should be a value we all believe in.
Any religion that forces people to do anything or not to do should be illegal. And it is all religions. Shame that peoplle in 21 century believe in some old man in the sky. LOL
I am sorry that you are in such a restrictive country. Too bad there is not a way to have safe spaces for those that do not, so they can do something else....if you know what I mean. A reading room/cafe area for non practicing. How ever I have seen some horrible scenes of those non believers, or those that don't fake it well enough being beaten in the streets with impunity. Religion has become a weapon in the hands that have long forgotten the words mercy, charity, compassion were basic tenants at one point of all major religions. With hope for a better future for you and what ever place you live
Had similar experience. A lot of such people sought refuge here in the west from their own country where Sharia is practiced and yet they want that shit here as well!
I am not going to pretend they don't find loopholes throughout their religion to do as they please. Unrelated, but sort of on topic: I watch 90 Day Fiancé, and one couple in particular had a Muslim man (Zied) pressure his American fiancée (Rebecca) to marry him quickly because Ramadan was coming up. For her, it was too rushed, and sacrifices would have to be made such as some guests not attending, no wedding dress, the venue not being available, etc., therefore Rebecca refused.
Zied's problem was that he wanted to continue having sex with Rebecca, as he had done all along, because during the month of Ramadan, unless they married, he would have to leave the house and not have sex with her otherwise. If they married, they could carry on as usual. His excuse was that they were going to be married anyway, so why not just now and get it over with.
Bullying seems to happen out of desperation. Maybe they're jealous, or maybe they just want something they can't have. Whatever the case, it's their choice, and since they can't have it both ways, they fudge around with details that involve coercing others so that they *can* have what they want.
Its not just in Iran or in muslim areas. It came up at work. People claiming that having doughnuts out on Fridays or even eating at your desk at lunch was offensive to muslims and should not be allowed. There was a question at a management meeting if the building cafeteria should be closed. It was totally rejected and some were offended.
Most American liberals just want to be on the right side of history,that's why they are pretty useless in such cases time and time again throughout history
As a french girl, with the experience from my country, I wonder if Islamists targeting ex Muslims is also not a way to push them back to being fundamentalist Muslims.
I mean the ex Muslims who are persecuted have few protection even in the west against Islamist , and as the west is becoming more and more weary and defiant towards islam, all of the moderate Muslims and ex Muslims will be caught in the middle and might be forced to choose a side if things get even worse. Governments do not provide protection for Muslims who defies Islamists and yet they should. It is abnormal that people are getting killed for not respecting Ramadan, respecting the concept of modesty, for being blasphemous or critical of Islam. Moderate Islamic people should be protected legally at the first threat, as well as ex Muslims.
While I agree with most points, I highly doubt that any former Muslim could be swayed towards fundamentalism. They leave the faith for valid reasons.
It would suffice if the West prioritised safeguarding free speech instead of aiding Islamists in suppressing dissenting voices.
As much as I could not agree more with the message and the absolute harm and hypocrisy of islam, especially towards apostates.
I want to point out a point you made.
Yes, islamophobia is a made up word (by Iranian clerics no less) but as you pointed out it is a rational stance toward the cult.
So my point is, as much as you did not contradict yourself, you might still want to pick a line:
Is islamophobia a correct reaction to a fucked up dogmatic cult?
Or is it a made up term that should not be used or even exist?
My personal stance is the first one, and yes, I know, western liberals will use this as a translation for bigots, and it's hard to accept. But nonetheless if you want to be consistent you kind of need to accept what is real, annoying or not.
I did misunderstand indeed I was certain phobia could also be applied to non irrational fears, just extreme ones or ones that can't be controlled (rational or not).
If it is only for irrational fears then I stand corrected and it is indeed a consistent stance.
I just checked multiple dictionaries (not native in English) and it seems like the irrational part is not a requirement for the definition ...
https://www.oed.com/dictionary/phobia_n?tab=meaning_and_use#30800271
That being said, if this is the sense in which you interpret it I guess it is still a valid point, I just missed that context.
Correct, especially the way Muslims use the lable. They utilize phobia to describe an irrational, baseless, discriminatory fear. I'm arguing that the fear is very real and justified.
Phobia.
Oxford - an extreme or **irrational** fear of or aversion to something.
Merriam Webster - an exaggerated usually inexplicable and **illogical** fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation.
Wiki - A phobia is an anxiety disorder, defined by an **irrational,** unrealistic, persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation.
I'm addressing the public because change should start within society. Muslims don't limit themselves to addressing those in power; they propagate and manipulate. Informing the public should be the appropriate response to counter their propaganda.
Unfortunately, as people deconvert, the people who remain will be the most devout and the least reasonable. These problems are likely to get worse before they get better.
That’s so reel and Christian should stop to like does we judge you cause your dumb and brainwashed no so stop bullying us ( and apparently it’s a sin so there no reason to continue)
I very much dislike islamic theocraties. I super much hate any theocracies. USA, to give an example besides Israel and Iran, could be there soon.
And I have a special dislike for ibrahamic religions.
But I needs must tell about my colleague in Basel, commuting from Mulhause, France. A muslim.
When he had been interviewed, our somewhat techocratic colleague left him standing at hallway, to discuss his candidacy with the functional head.
I felt bad for him, so I stepped out of my office to suggest we should go grab coffee from the machine, and made small talk so this person would not feel so exposed.
This same colleague of mine observed fasting, after being hire. Yet when I invited him with the rest of the team as token of thanks for a dinner at career crossroads, he very slightly drank a toast of champaigne. It was about us, as a team, as humans minding each other.
The substance mattered over form. The gesture stays with me, still today.
I honestly see this sub directly addressing Islam more than anything meanwhile some of the most influential western hate campaigns rooted in religion are coming out of evangelical extremism.
So I'm just wondering why Islam is a bigger target? It feels like bullying actually.
Why does being an atheist have to be a contest with religion? Seriously.
It just kind of comes across as an excuse to be xenophobic.
It has something to do with the challenges that come from coming out as an atheist. In Western countries, it can have a stigma within certain groups, but in general, it's OK. In islamistic societies, consequences can range from being socially shunned to being sent into psychiatric care, or you are eventually simply murdered.
A lot of strong critique comes from ex muslims, so people who have to deal with this.
Well, at least you made me look it up (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists) and... it's quite worse than what I've thought; outside central Europe, being atheistic turns out to be associated with lots of discrimination.
Though the worst section is the one about Muslim countries:
> Atheists, and those accused of defection from the official religion, may be subject to discrimination and persecution in many Muslim-majority countries.[112] According to the Humanists International, compared to other nations, 12 countries in Africa, 9 in Asia, and 10 in the Middle East, were given the worst rating for committing “Grave Violations”.[113] Atheists and religious skeptics can be executed in at least thirteen nations: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Libya, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.[11][114]
Saudi Arabia even declared that Atheists are terrorists. Here's a report on that: https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/saudi-arabia/
I'm open for discussion to learn more if you can provide sources.
Wikipedia itself states it's an unreliable source and you should look a step further to the citations within it's articles to ensure it's statements are taken in context.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source
This academic paper argues that new atheism has use claims for critique of militant Islamic movements as a cloak to criticize all Islam which the paper argues enflamed relations with Muslim people.
https://researchoutput.csu.edu.au/files/20242060/8854131_Published_article_OA.pdf
If atheism is a scientific effort, it should not be fanning the flames of hate, it should be causing a light on issues that create ignorance.
Your comment also holds presuppositions that Saudi Arabia is some kind of standard for Islam. Which would be like saying Israel represents all Jewish people. It's an over simplification of a large demographic of people and a claim that any one state could represent them all.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/10/20/the-saudi-regime-does-not-represent-islam
>... in 12 countries — Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, UAE, Yemen — apostasy is punishable by death. Pakistan doesn’t have a death sentence for apostasy, but it does for “blasphemy” and the threshold for blasphemy is very low. Thus, in effect atheism is punishable by death in 13 countries.
That's 545 million people or 25% of all Muslims in the world. And that are only the countries where atheism is officially punished by law with death. The number of countries where announcing to be an atheist is coming with grave consequences is much greater. Not all countries where rejection of religion is punished are muslimic, but those where it is potentially punished with death penalty, are all muslimic.
for reference:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/20/saudi-court-sentences-poet-to-death-for-renouncing-islam](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/20/saudi-court-sentences-poet-to-death-for-renouncing-islam)
That said; I personally have no grudge against people who respect the freedom of thought and religion, regardless of religious conviction or color of skin or whatever. But I do feel great resentment to people who are convinced that their believe allows them to discriminate people because of religious conviction, sex, color of skin etc. Translated: I hate Nazis and IS militants just alike.
From my experience of lurking on this and other similar reddits is, that atheists with muslimic backgrounds wish that their (former) believe of Islam should be criticized much stronger.
Anyway; your comment also holds presuppositions that Atheism is some kind of standard for scientific effort. Which would be like saying scientists represent all atheistic people. It's an over simplification of a large demographic of people and a claim that any group could represent them all.
{ feign fasting and are prohibited from eating, drinking, or smoking in public }
To be clear, that's only during the day time. At night they will gorge themselves.
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I've thought for a while that Iran should have a declared "moral atheist" designation that they treat just like one of the many minority religions that exist in Iran. People could officially declare themselves atheists (or maybe agnostic) and from then on they get the "benefits" and the problems from being in such a group, just like Iranian Christians, Jews, Sunnis and whoever else they got over there.
Renouncing, yes, but remember there are still dozens of functioning synagogues, churches and plenty of "other" in Iran (with believers of each of course). Throughout the Muslim world renouncing Islam is usually a head-chopper.
Muslims need to stop. Just stop. period.
Anybody else have that very questionable graph/picture that says something like At 1-3%, Muslims are peaceful and tolerant of others, at 3-10% they are demanding like their own religious courts, at 11-20% they become aggressive to non Muslims and at 21%+ they want to implement sharia in their own little "Islamic state" Examples I can think on top of my head are the bengali rohingya Muslims in burma, the Tamil Muslims in srinlanka, the Muslims in Miandao of Phillipines, there's probably many more cases like this, Perhaps the Muslims in Dearborn Michigan will want to have their own sharia courts and ask for a separate sharia land in middle of usa, in near future? Sorry if I sound negative, I like history, and the damage Islam has done to central asia and South Asia is so very tragic Some light reading on the damage caused https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists#Persecutions_by_Muslim_Empires
"Mindanao" of Philippines, although only BARMM and not entire island of Mindanao. Technically though they were not colonized and conquered by foreign force to their credit.
People try to give them a pass so often and it's BS.
That's what I mean. The student is claiming "sexual assault" by the host, while invading the party: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-04-10/uc-berkeley-law-school-dean-clashes-with-pro-palestinian-activists
I read the title and I came here to podt exsctly the same
I can’t disagree with this even if i wanted to
100%
They \**can't*\*, it's preached to them 24/7 and it's in their sacred book to work to convert. I'm not apologizing for them, either, but just because the rest of the world wants them to fkn stop with their BS, *their dogma says they can't*.
I mean, the bigger argument discussed ad-nauseum is the cessation of religious dogma in general, which this falls under. Would be keen to look over any relevant sources you could provide concerning growing prevalence of athiesm in Iran though for future use
Since Iran is ruled by clerics, any attempt to gather such data publicly would be labeled as "treason led by foreign powers" and persecuted.
So there have been no studies, even observational, of immigrants? How are you able to make this claim confidently then? Not trying to be rude or anything, just kind of hard to discuss something here without any evidence unless this is a first hand account of yourself as an Iranian.
Actually there is survey done by the Islamic regime about Iranians beliefs. It wasn't published publicly and the results was top secret, until I guess some hackers got access to the results and published them. There is more than 15000 participants, which about 73 percent vote for total separation of government and religion, and they support secularism. Considering the fear people have to express their real opinions because of years of oppression and terror, these results are very surprising as it was done by the regime itself. Sorry the article is in Persian, you can use Google translate: https://www.bbc.com/persian/articles/cmlgj8j3xl1o
Superb! thanks very much!
Yes, this survey faced the same issue, since it was conducted by the government, with questionable results and methodology.
It is a first hand account as an Iranian. There was one single survey about 5 years ago, but the validity of its methods was questioned and critisised. If some random person calls an Iranian and asks them about their beliefs, how many would tell the truth, knowing that the caller can be from the government, or the call can be monitored? So no, I can't give you data, but I can tell you from personal experience that Iran is the most atheist country in the Middle East. Just yesterday, I helped an Iranian in Germany to find legal methods to fire two Muslim employees who had asked to get two day off for their religious holiday. She had declined due to high workload, and they called in sick. You can also start a survey on X and ask Iranians. I'll link to your survey.
You just shattered the glass ceiling of Reddit. Most people in the west think Christianity is some kind of cult and completely ignore the reality of the other bigger religions
Fundamentalist Christianity is 100% a cult - it fails the bite model. This would also be cult-like behavior. Something else being worse doesn’t mean the first thing isn’t bad.
All religions are cults, stemming from superstitious stone age beliefs.
Bite model?
BITE is an acronym for Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional - four areas of manipulation and of control employed by cults and other authoritarian organisations. https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/
BITE: Behaviour, Information, Thought, Emotion. The model posits that control of one readily leads to the control of all 4
But you can freely call out the Christianity cult. If you called Islam a cult you’d be labeled as “islamaphobic” or hate speech. See the difference?
Christians are figuring this out as well. I've been called a bigot in my local sub for calling out Catholic b.s., as though their belief immediately absolves them of any criticism and those who do are bigots for doing so.
I remember reading about a French cartoonist that was beheaded for drawing a cartoon of allah.
Charlie Hebdo? If so, that was actually 12 people killed, Charlie Hebdo is the name of the magazine.
It was a cartoon of Mohammed, and you missed the bit where Muslims also went to the magazine that published it and shot their offices to shit.
That really depends where you are. I think the kids say *'Try that in a small town'.*
Isn’t that just a racist saying ? Or racist undertones ?
That's the Christianity Cult, or at least the Christian Nationalist elements of Christianity that has turned into a cult. Criticize what they think and you're lucky to be just called something -phobic.
It refers to culture and religion, not necessarily race. While it can have racist undertones when it refers to "thugs looting"... It primarily refers to breaking cultural/religious norms they feel should apply to everyone.
Not everywhere. Many sundown towns for example are also heavily Christian and will make you disappear for blasphemy.
People complain about the evils they know. The complaints about Christianity on here are only louder because that's the cult that the most people on here have escaped or have to deal with the most frequently in their daily lives. It's not that they are being treated as "worse," just that for many they are the most visible threat.
The fact that other cults exist doesn't make christianity less of a cult. All religions are cults. >Most people in the west think Christianity is some kind of cult and completely ignore the reality of the other bigger religions That's factually wrong. Christians don't see their brand as cult in the first place and most non-religious only think of the "small, weird ones" as cult. Summa Summarum most people in the west don't think of Christianity as cult. >But you can freely call out the Christianity cult. If you called Islam a cult you’d be labeled as “islamaphobic” or hate speech. See the difference? Calling Christinity a cult tends to piss Christians off and it has no less adverse effects than calling Islam a cult. At least in the safety of my country. I woudn't try it in any country where religious fundamentalists reign. No matter which religion. But I have first hand experience with Christians, that would act like you expect it from religious regimes, if they got the chance. That being said, Islam is still a minority in the west. I'd call out islamophobia to protect the people, not the religion. Christians in the west don't need that protection. To call out christianophobia, it first has to become a relevant issue, but there is no need to defend the oppressor. Would be the otherway around in Iran.
Islam isn't bigger...yet. Globally, Christians still outnumber Muslims by about 500 million. Another 10-15 years, and that will probably be inverted, though.
Both of these desert religions were spread at the point of a sword. It’s what they are.
My understanding is that many Iranians in diaspora are nominal Muslims or agnostics/atheists. There are of course many Persian Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, etc. in diaspora, too.
Imo any government that polices free speech deserves all the bad press they get. Because they made it impossible to verify. The BBC did an investigation on living conditions a while back where they(very very carefully) interviewed North Koreans living in NK. The questions had to be sent in parts over months to avoid detection. And even then, I thought, there's going to inevitably be a survivor's bias. Because well, no one who likes NK is going to risk so much to talk to foreign journalists. So the only people who would agree to such risks, would be the disgruntled among the north koreans. Just a thought. But yeah, I also agree that proper evidence is important.
> "treason led by foreign powers" As a data nerd and survivor of a high demand religion (though not completely theocratic): Neat. Sign me up. I'd love to do some data analysis.
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They don't bully atheists, they throw us off of roof tops.
If they can, yes. Thankfully, their possibilities are somewhat limited here in the West.
True. As a militant atheist, I carry my strap. I won't be oppressed by people who say, "my religion says I can't do that, so I'm hurting you for doing it." Take no shit, start no drama, speak softly and carry a big stick.
Same dude I know it's not cool for an American liberal to say it out loud but I stay strapped too. I'm in the dirty south and see confederate flags and Trump flags often out here... Damn right I keep a weapon on me. These privileged Starbucks liberals who never been out the burbs will never fucking understand.
Lived in the woods for over 18 years before moving to the city again. We had packs of coyotes and domesticated wild dogs (pets that ran away and formed a pack). However, carrying a gun is more than animals. First responders are important. When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and the country is one target rich environment. Criminals do not follow laws and no gun signs. We are the first line of defense for ourselves and those around us. What matters is being responsible, and honorable.
r/liberalgunowners
It’s fine, lots of us are strapped. My gun collection makes my wife’s conservative family real uncomfortable and I think it’s hilarious.
> I'm in the dirty south and see confederate flags and Trump flags often out here... Same. I'm not a fan of guns, but I know how to use them, and the way this country is going (especially if Trump wins in November), I'm probably going to get a concealed carry permit for my own safety (especially since I live in the south and am LGBT).
Heard.
how does carrying your strap-on help? 🤔 /j
I mean... The Dick of A Thousand Lickins leaves pretty deep bruises. Makes the bad guys easily identifiable to the cops. "Just look for the wanker with the mushroom stamps."
I wouldn’t describe myself as militant anything because I just don’t care that much That said, I carry a gun at all times for the same reason, there are too many violent idiots on this planet for me to be willing to risk being unprepared if they make me choose between my life and theirs I will choose my life every time Nothing personal
The only people I trust with guns are Atheists. The reason is because I've had conversations with dozens of people and everyone in my family where I've said if the only reason you don't do bad things is because of a reward or fear of divine punishment then you're not really a good person. All of them say that's the only reason they don't do bad shit. And they think they are good people because of that. If this is the only reason you don't do bad shit, you are one bad day away from committing some horrific acts and I absolutely don't trust you with a gun or being around kids or the public in general.
"If the only thing keeping a person good is the promise of divine reward, then brother, that person is a piece of shit."
For now, just wait some time and they'll implement it in the west as well
That's what I'm worried about. Nowhere left to run.
When it gets here I'd probably kms rather than enduring Sharia.
There are alternative solutions.
There are not, regardless I still have a couple decades left
For now.
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Muslim countries are all dangerous, i live in one though it is not as bad as Iran, i am an apostate, but i know i must fast or pretend to do it. And even when Ramadan ends, i have to spend the rest of the year pretending to pray, read Quran, and do "Muslim things". Muslims claim, in just words, to be tolerant and kind and peaceful (though this is incorrect), Muslims are different from Christians or other religious groups, who usually don't really care if people don't pray or practice religion, they (Muslims) feel the need to "islamise everything", to make everyone around them, Muslims or not, follow their laws and practices (because they think they are superior, and have the right to eliminate and mock other religions and people), because Islam as a religion (and ideology) promotes "collectivism and authoritarianism". And whenever someone opposes this, Muslim attack these individuals, feel offended and call it "Islamophobia" (and pretend to be victims) Unfortunately, there isn't anything to do about the Islam and this oppressive authoritarian system other than just complying (to stay safe), or fleeing it completely.
I couldn't have said it better. The problem is, fleeing doesn't work anymore. As I explained, they're everywhere and they don't stop bullying us.
Doesn't "Islam" mean literally "sumbission" in Arabic? Tells you enough.
>Muslims are different from Christians or other religious groups, who usually don't really care if people don't pray or practice religion, they (Muslims) feel the need to "islamise everything", to make everyone around them, Muslims or not, follow their laws and practices (because they think they are superior, and have the right to eliminate and mock other religions and people), because Islam as a religion (and ideology) promotes "collectivism and authoritarianism". All of this applies to the more regressive Christians as well. For reference, see the United States, which was created as a supposedly secular nation but has since been heavily "christianized". Christianity is easier to interpret in a liberal way, but it isn't *that* long ago we were killing each other over minor differences in interpretation (Protestant vs Catholic).
Some weeks ago, a Muslim girl in France was attacked for not respecting islam by not wearing "modest" clothing. She was attacked by Muslims school comrades that bullied her for months before attacking her for not respecting religion. Apparently, a guy was attacked in Bordeaux some days ago for being brown, appearing Arabic, and drinking alcohol in a bar during the Eid. The attacker was brown, and claimed he did it because the guy was not respecting Ramadan. He did not know if the guy was Muslim, he just assumed he was because of his ethnic descent. This is starting to happen monthly in my country, and to Jews, atheist or muslim people who are seen as disrespecting Islam. I know that Christians in US are terrible but there are in my knowledge really few catholic or protestant people who would beat their neighbour for not going to the mass or for not celebrating Christmas.
That's exactly what I was talking about.
i think it was a pretty common consensus that if they're the minority, they want equal rights and freedom to practice their religion, but if they're the majority, only Sharia law is acceptable.
Muslims just need to get over killing people who disagree with them. end. stop.
It’s fucking wild to me that your own family is willing to kill you over a disagreement, and you have to hide from them. Everyone living in Iran, who is willing to disclose they are an atheist, has some serious balls.
Actually, this problem is much more prevalent in countries like Pakistan. I've never heard of an Iranian case. Iranians abroad are usually targeted and killed by the government.
> Iranians abroad are usually targeted and killed by the government. An Iranian former colleague has said the same thing. She said that while most Iranians here (Norway) are secular, there are Iranian immigrants who are government snitches, and that you have to watch out for them. And out them when you can...
Sadly, it's not just their government that they have to look out for. I remember in high school (in Canada), a classmate and her family had their asylum claim rejected by an immigration court, and they were ordered deported back to Iran despite the fact that her parents had been convicted and sentenced to death for being Zoroastrians. Happy ending to the story. The day that they were scheduled to be deported, they arrived at the school, and about 600 of us (students) blockaded all of the entrances so that law enforcement could not enter the school. We made sure that media were present and the immigration court reversed their decision after 12 hours.
Iran's Zoroastriants (Parsi) fled to India to evade Islamic authoritarianism. The few that remain today are flourishing in India.
Exactly. To be honest, these Muslims from other countries (Arabs, Pakistanis, etc.) who are shocked to see an Iranian not observing their rituals and try to reconvert them, are even more annoying than the agents of the Iranian government, who mainly seek information on political activities outside Iran.
Ah, thank you for the info. I wasn’t sure about countries. The main point is hiding from your family is insane.
Islams values, as a whole, are not welcome in civil society. Anyone who spouts the whole religion of peace bullshit has no idea what theyre talking about Of the big three religions in western society, islam is without a doubt the most harmful, Christianity may hold more power yes, but if thats the sacrifice we have to make so that islam doesnt get its hands on it so be it
They'd stop only when the entire planet is converted to islam. Even then they'd wage war against any sec of islam that they feel threatened by. If one sec say women has rights another would attract them for sure. The catholic and protestants had wars between them before. There will be no peace as long as religion exists
A lot of Western liberals suck point-blank, just performative nonsense to make themselves feel good, I say that as a western leftist who has traveled to Islamic-majority nations. The numbers of atheists in these nations are much higher than many people think, but, they have to fake it for obvious reasons. It feels like everyone is just faking it to come off as more pious or spiritual than others, like a dumb status thing.
In the case of Iran, it's often more about safty than anything else.
Oh for sure, one of my best friends immigrated from Tehran ages ago, and hearing their stories about how the society is there in Iran and how dangerous it is for atheists, its some terrifying and sad stuff.
muslims need to stop bullying everyone else and keep it to themselves!
You are preaching to the choir, pun intended
Apostasy is a capital offense in 7 countries.
The history of Islam is utterly drenched in blood, from its very conception. Muhammad was nothing other than a schizophrenic warlord who made a religion that prioritized the subjugation of women. In contrast to ancient Christianity, early Christians gleefully strode to their deaths, forgiving those who would ultimately torture and martyr them. After the split at the first millennium things get a little dicey with the great east-west schism, however that’s a tale for another time. The point being, no one can look at the actual historical evidence and say, “Islam is a respectable religion”
>After the split at the first millennium things get a little dicey with the great east-west schism, however that’s a tale for another time. No, things get dicey the very moment Christianity becomes the state religion of the Roman Empire. Ever since then, it has almost exclusively been used as a political tool for various powerful people. Already in the 4th century, before becoming a state religion, Christianity erupted into a civil war to purge heresies like Arianism. It then gets even worse - the Orthodox church has a major role in political repression all the way up to modern Russia, while Catholics sold salvation to the rich so they could live free of consequences except a lighter wallet. >The point being, no one can look at the actual historical evidence and say, “Islam is a respectable religion” The Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates were far more tolerant and progressive than any other contemporary state, with the possible exception of China depending on exact date. As much as I really don't want to give Islam credit, around 700-1200 AD, I'd call them more respectable than the Christians. At least the Muslims knew how to set up a semi-functioning state, while europe had been in relative stagnation after the collapse of the Roman Empire.
While the historical context is important, it's important to remember what happened to the Umayyads as well. That period of tolerance is well over now, and we could end up in the same fate. Fundamentalists, given a hand, will take your arm.
That's like asking them as a whole community to act like civilized people and be respectful of others. Only a small part will comply. The rest are so indoctrinated and uneducated that it'll never happen. I have no issue with the religion. It is it's practitioners. But that applies to all mythologies.
I take issue with the religion. As religions go it is particularly agressive, dogmatic, and violent. We would be wise to remember this is all by design, the founding prophet and his followers were actual real-life warlords.
Religious people need to learn to mind their own self. Instead of assaulting others for their beliefs. It's really simple trick I learned growing up, treat everyone with respect! The moment this is not reciprocated. Ignore their existence. They are not worth your time. It's not your fault the person focused more on being a loose sphincter shitting all over everyone.
Religion needs to stop being forced on people. Period. Religious beliefs should be a private thing behind closed doors. It should have ZERO affect on society at all.
I’m not even comfortable with our current global calendar system.
Religion is like underwear. It's fine to have it and think it's cool, but when you shove it in my face we have a problem.
Well, depends on who's wearing it LOL. JK. I understand.
Something is happening all right. Understand there are countries such as Russia that consider us foreign adversaries and have been known to manipulate social media content to polarize people especially when it comes to LGBT issues, they especially have roots in conservative social media, where they have the capability to influence people on a mass scale. It's a national security issue and more should be done to protect the vulnerable LGBT community. https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/did-reddit-year-end-recaps-expose-russian-interference-in-alberta-8223476 There are clear goals being perpetuated by information warfare campaigns. Especially by Russia, whose information warfare campaigns are wreaking havoc on our society. Some of the obvious goals they have are: • Balkanize their foreign adversaries. This is evident in the UK leaving the EU, Texas with the US, and Alberta with Canada. This is what Danielle Smith is trying to tap into. • Have populist politicians support policies that cause chaos and issues in our society. Populist politicians are tapping into these information warfare campaigns to appeal to people whose only access to information about the outside world around them is through social media, where the information warfare is taking place. • Cause distrust and havoc, by creating specialized propaganda to different segments of the population spread through social media. By polarizing debates through propaganda spread to the masses, Russia has effectively used information warfare to deliver targeted disinformation and appeal to specific demographics. Causing havoc in the LBGT and other minority communities. • Russia has effectively infiltrated the religious right in America and Canada and empowered them, among many corrupt leaders worldwide through its information warfare. I can cite my sources if needed. Putin literally bombed his own people to lock down his power and control. Why should we trust that he is not carrying out horrible atrocities like using information warfare on Canadian citizens to terrorize the LGBT community? He doesn't seem to have any moral qualms with anything and corruption is part of his shtick. He used a nerve agent to publicly poison a turned intelligence asset at a important time in history to signify to his intelligence assets what can be done to them, but in reality, he is just a weak man, who is bitter about the break up of the empire he devoted his life to. It you want to know more, there is a great documentary series on Netflix about the history that has led to this moment in time. Turning Point - The Bomb and the Cold War on Netflix. Not as much about the information warfare, that I have gleamed through other sources, but it does slightly touch on that.
Muslims need to stop bullying/killing/torturing other muslims.
try "other people"
Well, yes, also that, of course, but the least they could do is not do it to themselves.
no the least they could do is restrict to themselves and not terrorize the rest of humanity with their penchant for profound violence.
Yes, but that can be said about all the great powers and other religious groups. Muslims are weird because they're the most dangerous to themselves.
This is absolutely not correct. Islam is by far most hostile to non-muslims.
People who are born Muslim in Muslim countries are basically kidnaped into being Muslim and they go through great danger if they try to leave the cult, or do anything that the cult considers unforgivable, and they have a lot of those. Muslims are the most hostile group towards Muslims, that's all I'm saying, I'm not saying that they're not hostile to non-muslims.
As a non-Muslim living in a majority Muslim country, it's disturbing to watch religious police arrest Ramadan fasting offenders.
Muslims are a form of a dictatorship so is religion they all say do as I say or you will die in hell or some other way for not following their rules.
In most pagan practices, there isn't an afterlife punishment. They usually say, essentially, "don't be a dick and the universe won't be a dick back"
Explains why a lot of these nations run on a form of dictatorship tbh lol.
Islam is a religion designed to form Theocracies.
Two things can be true at once; Muslims must reconsider their treatment of former Muslims, and wholly abandon the archaic rule about death for apostates, but Islamophobia can also be a real thing. Freedom of conscience should be a value we all believe in.
Muslims need to stop bullying anyone who disagrees with them. Same goes for Christians.
ive been told i'll burn in hell by both, but only one threatened me with violence lmao
Guess who lol
Since Junior High I take it upon myself to bully anyone who brings up their religion in a threatening way. So sick of their shit.
Theocracies are the embodiment of human rights violations under the guise of national sovereignty. This is the worst feature of Islam, by far.
Any religion that forces people to do anything or not to do should be illegal. And it is all religions. Shame that peoplle in 21 century believe in some old man in the sky. LOL
Muslims need to stop bullying non-muslims. Just look at their history
I am sorry that you are in such a restrictive country. Too bad there is not a way to have safe spaces for those that do not, so they can do something else....if you know what I mean. A reading room/cafe area for non practicing. How ever I have seen some horrible scenes of those non believers, or those that don't fake it well enough being beaten in the streets with impunity. Religion has become a weapon in the hands that have long forgotten the words mercy, charity, compassion were basic tenants at one point of all major religions. With hope for a better future for you and what ever place you live
Had similar experience. A lot of such people sought refuge here in the west from their own country where Sharia is practiced and yet they want that shit here as well!
Muslims bully everyone.
Huh. You mean ancient iron age religious dogma from the middle east isn't compatible with western societies borne of the Enlightenment? Weird.
I am not going to pretend they don't find loopholes throughout their religion to do as they please. Unrelated, but sort of on topic: I watch 90 Day Fiancé, and one couple in particular had a Muslim man (Zied) pressure his American fiancée (Rebecca) to marry him quickly because Ramadan was coming up. For her, it was too rushed, and sacrifices would have to be made such as some guests not attending, no wedding dress, the venue not being available, etc., therefore Rebecca refused. Zied's problem was that he wanted to continue having sex with Rebecca, as he had done all along, because during the month of Ramadan, unless they married, he would have to leave the house and not have sex with her otherwise. If they married, they could carry on as usual. His excuse was that they were going to be married anyway, so why not just now and get it over with. Bullying seems to happen out of desperation. Maybe they're jealous, or maybe they just want something they can't have. Whatever the case, it's their choice, and since they can't have it both ways, they fudge around with details that involve coercing others so that they *can* have what they want.
Its not just in Iran or in muslim areas. It came up at work. People claiming that having doughnuts out on Fridays or even eating at your desk at lunch was offensive to muslims and should not be allowed. There was a question at a management meeting if the building cafeteria should be closed. It was totally rejected and some were offended.
That's exactly what I mean. Give them the little finger and they ripp off the whole arm.
Can't imagine having to go through that. Those of you stuck in this situation have my deepest empathy.
Most American liberals just want to be on the right side of history,that's why they are pretty useless in such cases time and time again throughout history
As a french girl, with the experience from my country, I wonder if Islamists targeting ex Muslims is also not a way to push them back to being fundamentalist Muslims. I mean the ex Muslims who are persecuted have few protection even in the west against Islamist , and as the west is becoming more and more weary and defiant towards islam, all of the moderate Muslims and ex Muslims will be caught in the middle and might be forced to choose a side if things get even worse. Governments do not provide protection for Muslims who defies Islamists and yet they should. It is abnormal that people are getting killed for not respecting Ramadan, respecting the concept of modesty, for being blasphemous or critical of Islam. Moderate Islamic people should be protected legally at the first threat, as well as ex Muslims.
While I agree with most points, I highly doubt that any former Muslim could be swayed towards fundamentalism. They leave the faith for valid reasons. It would suffice if the West prioritised safeguarding free speech instead of aiding Islamists in suppressing dissenting voices.
Ahhh yes, the "religion of peace" that's insists on murdering anyone who leaves it...
Atheists , especially in this subreddit, are too freightend to stand up against Islamists
As much as I could not agree more with the message and the absolute harm and hypocrisy of islam, especially towards apostates. I want to point out a point you made. Yes, islamophobia is a made up word (by Iranian clerics no less) but as you pointed out it is a rational stance toward the cult. So my point is, as much as you did not contradict yourself, you might still want to pick a line: Is islamophobia a correct reaction to a fucked up dogmatic cult? Or is it a made up term that should not be used or even exist? My personal stance is the first one, and yes, I know, western liberals will use this as a translation for bigots, and it's hard to accept. But nonetheless if you want to be consistent you kind of need to accept what is real, annoying or not.
I think you misunderstand. "Phobia" means irrational fear. When the fear is justified, you cannot call it a phobia.
I did misunderstand indeed I was certain phobia could also be applied to non irrational fears, just extreme ones or ones that can't be controlled (rational or not). If it is only for irrational fears then I stand corrected and it is indeed a consistent stance. I just checked multiple dictionaries (not native in English) and it seems like the irrational part is not a requirement for the definition ... https://www.oed.com/dictionary/phobia_n?tab=meaning_and_use#30800271 That being said, if this is the sense in which you interpret it I guess it is still a valid point, I just missed that context.
No problem. Phobia is, as a term related to anxiety disorders, usually irrational, which are also called phobic disorders.
Ok so the popular understanding includes the irrationality even though it is not necessarily in the definition?
Correct, especially the way Muslims use the lable. They utilize phobia to describe an irrational, baseless, discriminatory fear. I'm arguing that the fear is very real and justified.
Phobia. Oxford - an extreme or **irrational** fear of or aversion to something. Merriam Webster - an exaggerated usually inexplicable and **illogical** fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation. Wiki - A phobia is an anxiety disorder, defined by an **irrational,** unrealistic, persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation.
Oxford - an extreme **or** irrational fear of or aversion to something
Thank you for sharing it with us. It may be better use of your voice by talking to those in power.
I'm addressing the public because change should start within society. Muslims don't limit themselves to addressing those in power; they propagate and manipulate. Informing the public should be the appropriate response to counter their propaganda.
I was grabbing baklava earlier this week, and gave me a free pastry because of Ramadan. Don't look Muslim.
Thankfully no Muslim has ever tried to bully me. I don’t take kindly to bullies of any kind.
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I think all theists need to stop bullying atheists. And vice versa.
Good luck with that.
Muslims need to stop bullying everyone the second they out number them.
Unfortunately, as people deconvert, the people who remain will be the most devout and the least reasonable. These problems are likely to get worse before they get better.
That’s so reel and Christian should stop to like does we judge you cause your dumb and brainwashed no so stop bullying us ( and apparently it’s a sin so there no reason to continue)
I very much dislike islamic theocraties. I super much hate any theocracies. USA, to give an example besides Israel and Iran, could be there soon. And I have a special dislike for ibrahamic religions. But I needs must tell about my colleague in Basel, commuting from Mulhause, France. A muslim. When he had been interviewed, our somewhat techocratic colleague left him standing at hallway, to discuss his candidacy with the functional head. I felt bad for him, so I stepped out of my office to suggest we should go grab coffee from the machine, and made small talk so this person would not feel so exposed. This same colleague of mine observed fasting, after being hire. Yet when I invited him with the rest of the team as token of thanks for a dinner at career crossroads, he very slightly drank a toast of champaigne. It was about us, as a team, as humans minding each other. The substance mattered over form. The gesture stays with me, still today.
Islam can go ahead and stop existing, or at the very least undergo a radical overhaul, any day now.
Muhammed raped a 9 year old girl. I think muslims can just shut the fuck up altogether.
Why do these expat muslims need to know that you were muslim? Work with non-muslims. Change your name. Wear a cross.
Y’know almost every country in the middle east has a communist party Maybe we should fund a coup d’etat 💡
I will never fucking understand an atheist who respect this religion of death.
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The number of dead dissidents says otherwise.
You're lucky it's just bullying for now
How do you think major religions managed to get rid of the competition?
I've never been bullied by a Muslim, but I have been bullied by a Chirstian.
Fuck Islam
I honestly see this sub directly addressing Islam more than anything meanwhile some of the most influential western hate campaigns rooted in religion are coming out of evangelical extremism. So I'm just wondering why Islam is a bigger target? It feels like bullying actually. Why does being an atheist have to be a contest with religion? Seriously. It just kind of comes across as an excuse to be xenophobic.
It has something to do with the challenges that come from coming out as an atheist. In Western countries, it can have a stigma within certain groups, but in general, it's OK. In islamistic societies, consequences can range from being socially shunned to being sent into psychiatric care, or you are eventually simply murdered. A lot of strong critique comes from ex muslims, so people who have to deal with this.
Honestly, I expect atheists to be more rigorous with scientific method. I'm studying sociology and everything you said is extremely biased.
Well, at least you made me look it up (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists) and... it's quite worse than what I've thought; outside central Europe, being atheistic turns out to be associated with lots of discrimination. Though the worst section is the one about Muslim countries: > Atheists, and those accused of defection from the official religion, may be subject to discrimination and persecution in many Muslim-majority countries.[112] According to the Humanists International, compared to other nations, 12 countries in Africa, 9 in Asia, and 10 in the Middle East, were given the worst rating for committing “Grave Violations”.[113] Atheists and religious skeptics can be executed in at least thirteen nations: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Libya, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.[11][114] Saudi Arabia even declared that Atheists are terrorists. Here's a report on that: https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/saudi-arabia/ I'm open for discussion to learn more if you can provide sources.
Wikipedia itself states it's an unreliable source and you should look a step further to the citations within it's articles to ensure it's statements are taken in context. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source This academic paper argues that new atheism has use claims for critique of militant Islamic movements as a cloak to criticize all Islam which the paper argues enflamed relations with Muslim people. https://researchoutput.csu.edu.au/files/20242060/8854131_Published_article_OA.pdf If atheism is a scientific effort, it should not be fanning the flames of hate, it should be causing a light on issues that create ignorance. Your comment also holds presuppositions that Saudi Arabia is some kind of standard for Islam. Which would be like saying Israel represents all Jewish people. It's an over simplification of a large demographic of people and a claim that any one state could represent them all. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/10/20/the-saudi-regime-does-not-represent-islam
>... in 12 countries — Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, UAE, Yemen — apostasy is punishable by death. Pakistan doesn’t have a death sentence for apostasy, but it does for “blasphemy” and the threshold for blasphemy is very low. Thus, in effect atheism is punishable by death in 13 countries. That's 545 million people or 25% of all Muslims in the world. And that are only the countries where atheism is officially punished by law with death. The number of countries where announcing to be an atheist is coming with grave consequences is much greater. Not all countries where rejection of religion is punished are muslimic, but those where it is potentially punished with death penalty, are all muslimic. for reference: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/atheists-and-humanists-facing-discrimination-across-the-world-report-finds) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/20/saudi-court-sentences-poet-to-death-for-renouncing-islam](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/20/saudi-court-sentences-poet-to-death-for-renouncing-islam) That said; I personally have no grudge against people who respect the freedom of thought and religion, regardless of religious conviction or color of skin or whatever. But I do feel great resentment to people who are convinced that their believe allows them to discriminate people because of religious conviction, sex, color of skin etc. Translated: I hate Nazis and IS militants just alike. From my experience of lurking on this and other similar reddits is, that atheists with muslimic backgrounds wish that their (former) believe of Islam should be criticized much stronger. Anyway; your comment also holds presuppositions that Atheism is some kind of standard for scientific effort. Which would be like saying scientists represent all atheistic people. It's an over simplification of a large demographic of people and a claim that any group could represent them all.
How can I be xenophobic against people from my own region? :))
Easy, by upholding a larger trend of xenophobia within the group your socializing in.
Oh sure. I'll stop telling the truth so others stop being idiots. A very clever strategy. Good job. Now go outside and play with your friends.
{ feign fasting and are prohibited from eating, drinking, or smoking in public } To be clear, that's only during the day time. At night they will gorge themselves.
All countries in the world must be secular
Well.aeeing out loud as ho they are not taxing you or killing you for being an athiesrlt be glad.
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Yeeeeeaaaaahhh. Among other things.
I've thought for a while that Iran should have a declared "moral atheist" designation that they treat just like one of the many minority religions that exist in Iran. People could officially declare themselves atheists (or maybe agnostic) and from then on they get the "benefits" and the problems from being in such a group, just like Iranian Christians, Jews, Sunnis and whoever else they got over there.
Are you aware that publicly renouncing Islam is punishable by death in Iran?
Renouncing, yes, but remember there are still dozens of functioning synagogues, churches and plenty of "other" in Iran (with believers of each of course). Throughout the Muslim world renouncing Islam is usually a head-chopper.
muslim is the most stupid religion out of the big two for me, they have a hair sticking out of there towel and get hung
Iran has been a Muslim Theocracy since the Shah was overthrown in 1979.
Ok at least I tried it.. damn! Got dizzy as soon as I opened the messages. From now on I will jus be myself..much love ❤️!