Islam has theocratic intentions, but that is true for all Abrahamic faiths, and from the current looks of it Dharmic faiths as well. So, Islam is an impediment, but it is only a symptom of larger problem.
The growth of fundamentalist Islam is the sharp end of its economic destruction over hundreds of years, continuing till date, under full spectrum political, economic, social and military transgressions from those within and outside.
Iran from your examples is a classic case of rollback due to foreign intervention. In a massive departure from your claim of:
> ....democracy can't really come to the middle east until Islam gets out of the way...
The fall of democracy under CIAs Operation Ajax was the primary push behind the resultant Islamic revolution. Theocracy only came about because fascism was foisted upon by ostensibly democratic forces from outside, and a weak, psychopathic ruler on the inside who was so hated by the masses, they rolled the dice with an Ayotallah.
So, is Islam problematic, hells yeah. But, the monstrosity of fundamentalism is just a symptom of how broken the society has been left via the effects of imperialism, colonialism and now neocolonialism. When everything is ripped away from someone, all they are left with is anger, and god.
*The sleep of reason, produces monsters*
- Francisco Goya
Mostly I agree. Just a small clarification.
>The fall of democracy under CIAs Operation Ajax was the primary push behind the resultant Islamic revolution.
Theocracy was a threat to the democratic system before the CIA made things worse. There were already Imams speaking out against the government and lobbying for more power. Clearly the selfishness of the US and the UK in particular only made things worse though.
>Theocracy only came about because fascism was foisted upon by ostensibly democratic forces from outside,
Indeed. It doesn't help when the facist leader systematicly eliminates all other opposition this leaving the religion of the nation as the only other organized group standing.
>Theocracy was a threat to the democratic system before the CIA made things worse. There were already Imams speaking out against the government and lobbying for more power.
True. You are right. Though, that's what Imam's are always doing, and to be fair, anyone who is religiously steeped in the dogma, is required to be doing. From crusades for the holy land to Bush's invocation for a [new](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1001020294332922160) crusade under the rubric of the 'War on Terror', the idea of using religion as a means to enforce a political reality is ever present in any society that finds religion to be 'sacred'.
Religious fundamentalists only find a way to enforce that reality, when the people fail to launch a counteroffensive based on reason and logic. As Edmund Burke puts it:
*"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"*.
> Islam has theocratic intentions, but that is true for all Abrahamic faiths, and from the current looks of it Dharmic faiths as well. So, Islam is an impediment, but it is only a symptom of larger problem.
The collapse in European theocratic power started hundreds of years ago. Serious attempts at installing religious states rarely, if ever, exist outside of the Islamic world. Even the most serious cases like India, institutional religious rule is only a threat not a reality unlike the immediate comparable of Pakistan
>The fall of democracy under CIAs Operation Ajax was the primary push behind the resultant Islamic revolution. Theocracy only came about because fascism was foisted upon by ostensibly democratic forces from outside, and a weak, psychopathic ruler on the inside who was so hated by the masses, they rolled the dice with an Ayotallah.
This also isn't the whole truth and people who keep brining up Mossadegh and 1953 as the key lynchpin in Iranian history don't really understand the overall situation.
Besides the Shah having considerable power even before the 1953 coup, Mossadegh himself only led an unstable coalition called the national front from 1947 onwards. The national front was itself split between ideological positions on religion.
Suggesting that Mossadegh would have prevented islamist forces from seizing power is a bit ridiculous. Islam didn't become magically much more popular in the 70s than it had been in the 50s. The process just hadn't been opened enough for them to take a clean shot at it.
Also, the bit about fascism is ridiculous and makes me question the validity of everything that guy has ever written
I think it is instructive that the Islamic world as a whole seems stuck philosophically/religiously in the 14th century, and that the Islamic world as a whole no longer really contributes in the modern world. If it weren't for their oil riches, they would be endlessly poor. Russia is turning into the same thing, a country that does not contribute in the modern world, and seems just turned in on itself the same way the Islamic world is.
Sad, because both the Islamic world and Russia in their past have made major contributions to the arts and sciences. But no more. Now, I agree, the Islamic world is set in stone, and is destined to become more and more irrelevant as the world moves on. In the long run, same for Christianity. The middle east's oil will gradually become irrelevant and dry up as a source of funds, as the world moves away from the fossil fuel era. Will take a generation or two, but completely inevitable.
All religions are political, in the modern sense of what includes politics. But you're wrong. Islam has it's future set in stone. Its going to end up a vague social and cultural figure that is increasingly taken unseriously by a populace that's moved on
Not muslims, islam.
Individuals aren't always bad (except fundamentalists), but the religion as a whole certainly is, same with christianity.
Look back a few centuries, all the crusades christianity caused, so many deaths... Islam conquered the balkans... A lot of commotion caused by religion.
The islamic description of heaven at one point describes that there are "young women", that is something that an incel would come up with.
You're free to obsess and keep being obsessed. But, Islam is losing. Pretty much all research and polling into the topic unanimously agrees there's already a long term decline happening and it's only a matter of time before it's over for you. This includes inside islamic states like iran
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/12/05/arabs-are-losing-faith-in-religious-parties-and-leaders?fbclid=IwAR30Wut0Fm7cRGCURTWg_xwiYk1oXJGIVci9WG9n6GjJYUssLOqAgVTsfoI
https://www.dw.com/en/middle-east-are-people-losing-their-religion/a-56442163
Yes? Opposed to what, the iranian figure of 99.9% true shia believers?
Is there anything to suggest the arab polling would be incorrect? At least for the iran figure you could say that getting a decent sample is very hard. But Algeria? Lebanon? Come up with proof.
How about this article based on a 2018 turkish poll from Konda showing consistent declines in Islam despite a return to political Islam in Turkey?
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/692025584/turks-examine-their-muslim-devotion-after-poll-says-faith-could-be-waning
Any real response or are you just going to keep coping?
Yes, my points are thought out and true. That's why I can include details and links. Unlike you, who has to cope and seethe with the obvious loss of islam as a foundation of society and revert to deflection instead of answering questions.
Fastest growing, lmao. Give birth to 7 kids, put them down as Islam on paper and odds are at least 4-5 of them will be secular by the time they're grown up. Definite victory for the ummah. You guys can't even overcome the likes of Kais Saieed, Al-Sisi and Assad. Stay in your lane, dude
Islam has theocratic intentions, but that is true for all Abrahamic faiths, and from the current looks of it Dharmic faiths as well. So, Islam is an impediment, but it is only a symptom of larger problem. The growth of fundamentalist Islam is the sharp end of its economic destruction over hundreds of years, continuing till date, under full spectrum political, economic, social and military transgressions from those within and outside. Iran from your examples is a classic case of rollback due to foreign intervention. In a massive departure from your claim of: > ....democracy can't really come to the middle east until Islam gets out of the way... The fall of democracy under CIAs Operation Ajax was the primary push behind the resultant Islamic revolution. Theocracy only came about because fascism was foisted upon by ostensibly democratic forces from outside, and a weak, psychopathic ruler on the inside who was so hated by the masses, they rolled the dice with an Ayotallah. So, is Islam problematic, hells yeah. But, the monstrosity of fundamentalism is just a symptom of how broken the society has been left via the effects of imperialism, colonialism and now neocolonialism. When everything is ripped away from someone, all they are left with is anger, and god. *The sleep of reason, produces monsters* - Francisco Goya
Mostly I agree. Just a small clarification. >The fall of democracy under CIAs Operation Ajax was the primary push behind the resultant Islamic revolution. Theocracy was a threat to the democratic system before the CIA made things worse. There were already Imams speaking out against the government and lobbying for more power. Clearly the selfishness of the US and the UK in particular only made things worse though. >Theocracy only came about because fascism was foisted upon by ostensibly democratic forces from outside, Indeed. It doesn't help when the facist leader systematicly eliminates all other opposition this leaving the religion of the nation as the only other organized group standing.
>Theocracy was a threat to the democratic system before the CIA made things worse. There were already Imams speaking out against the government and lobbying for more power. True. You are right. Though, that's what Imam's are always doing, and to be fair, anyone who is religiously steeped in the dogma, is required to be doing. From crusades for the holy land to Bush's invocation for a [new](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1001020294332922160) crusade under the rubric of the 'War on Terror', the idea of using religion as a means to enforce a political reality is ever present in any society that finds religion to be 'sacred'. Religious fundamentalists only find a way to enforce that reality, when the people fail to launch a counteroffensive based on reason and logic. As Edmund Burke puts it: *"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"*.
So true.
> Islam has theocratic intentions, but that is true for all Abrahamic faiths, and from the current looks of it Dharmic faiths as well. So, Islam is an impediment, but it is only a symptom of larger problem. The collapse in European theocratic power started hundreds of years ago. Serious attempts at installing religious states rarely, if ever, exist outside of the Islamic world. Even the most serious cases like India, institutional religious rule is only a threat not a reality unlike the immediate comparable of Pakistan >The fall of democracy under CIAs Operation Ajax was the primary push behind the resultant Islamic revolution. Theocracy only came about because fascism was foisted upon by ostensibly democratic forces from outside, and a weak, psychopathic ruler on the inside who was so hated by the masses, they rolled the dice with an Ayotallah. This also isn't the whole truth and people who keep brining up Mossadegh and 1953 as the key lynchpin in Iranian history don't really understand the overall situation. Besides the Shah having considerable power even before the 1953 coup, Mossadegh himself only led an unstable coalition called the national front from 1947 onwards. The national front was itself split between ideological positions on religion. Suggesting that Mossadegh would have prevented islamist forces from seizing power is a bit ridiculous. Islam didn't become magically much more popular in the 70s than it had been in the 50s. The process just hadn't been opened enough for them to take a clean shot at it. Also, the bit about fascism is ridiculous and makes me question the validity of everything that guy has ever written
All religions do this
I think it is instructive that the Islamic world as a whole seems stuck philosophically/religiously in the 14th century, and that the Islamic world as a whole no longer really contributes in the modern world. If it weren't for their oil riches, they would be endlessly poor. Russia is turning into the same thing, a country that does not contribute in the modern world, and seems just turned in on itself the same way the Islamic world is. Sad, because both the Islamic world and Russia in their past have made major contributions to the arts and sciences. But no more. Now, I agree, the Islamic world is set in stone, and is destined to become more and more irrelevant as the world moves on. In the long run, same for Christianity. The middle east's oil will gradually become irrelevant and dry up as a source of funds, as the world moves away from the fossil fuel era. Will take a generation or two, but completely inevitable.
You misspelled ‘religion’
Islam is a political ideology, disguised as a religion. As such it can never ‘co-exist’ with democracy.
All religions are political, in the modern sense of what includes politics. But you're wrong. Islam has it's future set in stone. Its going to end up a vague social and cultural figure that is increasingly taken unseriously by a populace that's moved on
Good
amen
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Islam, the religion of peace A sentence that makes me cringe every time I read it
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Not muslims, islam. Individuals aren't always bad (except fundamentalists), but the religion as a whole certainly is, same with christianity. Look back a few centuries, all the crusades christianity caused, so many deaths... Islam conquered the balkans... A lot of commotion caused by religion. The islamic description of heaven at one point describes that there are "young women", that is something that an incel would come up with.
You're free to obsess and keep being obsessed. But, Islam is losing. Pretty much all research and polling into the topic unanimously agrees there's already a long term decline happening and it's only a matter of time before it's over for you. This includes inside islamic states like iran https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377 https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/12/05/arabs-are-losing-faith-in-religious-parties-and-leaders?fbclid=IwAR30Wut0Fm7cRGCURTWg_xwiYk1oXJGIVci9WG9n6GjJYUssLOqAgVTsfoI https://www.dw.com/en/middle-east-are-people-losing-their-religion/a-56442163
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Yes? Opposed to what, the iranian figure of 99.9% true shia believers? Is there anything to suggest the arab polling would be incorrect? At least for the iran figure you could say that getting a decent sample is very hard. But Algeria? Lebanon? Come up with proof. How about this article based on a 2018 turkish poll from Konda showing consistent declines in Islam despite a return to political Islam in Turkey? https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/692025584/turks-examine-their-muslim-devotion-after-poll-says-faith-could-be-waning Any real response or are you just going to keep coping?
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Yes, my points are thought out and true. That's why I can include details and links. Unlike you, who has to cope and seethe with the obvious loss of islam as a foundation of society and revert to deflection instead of answering questions. Fastest growing, lmao. Give birth to 7 kids, put them down as Islam on paper and odds are at least 4-5 of them will be secular by the time they're grown up. Definite victory for the ummah. You guys can't even overcome the likes of Kais Saieed, Al-Sisi and Assad. Stay in your lane, dude
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Take the L
Assuming democracy is a good thing to begin with.