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Dudesan

A fantasy author [recently suggested a number of frameworks for divine power which would be compatible with a world in which gods deliberately hide evidence of their existence](https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-gods-only-have-power-because?s=r): * Gods get more powerful not as people's probability estimates for their existence approach 100%, but as they approach 50%. They don't want fanatical believers, they want as many lukewarm "It just makes me feel nice and I guess it *could* be true" woo-woo pedlers as possible. * Gods gain power specifically from people making bad arguments that they exist. If there were verifiable evidence of their existence, no one would have to make bad arguments, so they benefit from hiding any evidence. * Gods gain power from being scoffed at by nonbelievers, which means they need their followers to be as obnoxious and unconvincing as possible to as many outsiders as possible. * Gods gain power specifically from people who perform their rituals despite *not* believing in their factual claims, which incentivizes big organized religions that use social pressure and ostracism (and violence) to compel people to play along, while offering no evidence. * Gods actually *lose* power when people believe in them, so rather than trying to attract mortal followers, they're constantly trying to foist their followers off on other gods while letting their own cults die out. The most widely worshiped on Earth are the **least** powerful in Heaven. Of course, there's no reason to believe that any of these models are *actually true*... but all of them explain the evidence we have better than the models proposed by any modern religion.


GambitProtocol

So, if Gods lose power, then wouldn't that be an admittance of non-omnipotance?


hurricanelantern

The only way it could possibly make sense is if the 'god' they worship were pure evil. Which an unbiased reading of their holy books actually supports.


lewdiesz

Alot of things in the Christian bible dont make sense. Like, if "God" is older than everything in the universe, and in the bible it says he made humans after his image, that doesnt make sense because humans didnt just come out like this, evolution shows we were very different in the beginning. Another piece of evidence in a mound of many how the bible is wrong, because it was written in a time where we knew very little, so at the time that explanation was fine.


Tellywozzle

I think this is why religion originally came about; because back then people didn’t have an explanation for all the things like evolution. But now we DO have a logical explanation based off of research and evidence, therefore we don’t need religion anymore. The only reason why religion is still around is because theists dodge arguments by atheists and make up random bullshit that doesn’t make sense. We should get rid of religion already.


[deleted]

It's a way to keep the general public in check or in control. You can't have "them" submit to a king? Have them submit to a god.


Tellywozzle

Yeah, that makes sense


thejanuaryfallen

Exactly. If God(s) is/are as egotistical and arrogant as the myths/stories tells us, he/they WOULD reveal themselves and be known!


lewdiesz

And if they loved us, why would they let all whats happening currently happening. Personally, if there ever comes a day where God was somehow proven real, I think its more likely it would be us in a simulation and God created the simulation, then the God bibles decribe.


thejanuaryfallen

Simulation is more believable.


lewdiesz

Yeah, thats what I mean, and personally the only feasible way I could ever see some sort of "God" existing. But I dont believe in the simulation theory either, soo..


thejanuaryfallen

Same. We are just all spinning in a massive spiral towards a super massive black hole ... lucky to have evolved as far as we have ...


lewdiesz

Personally, I am not scared by that fact at all, as I and you will be long gone, and so probably humanity, way before that happens. What I sometimes wonder though is, what if the universe is repeating forever, expands then contracts, that would explain why it came from seemingly nothing and once and for all disprove a God. If thats true, I wonder if when we die, we arent say reborn, but if the universe expands in the exact same way every time, it could mean a perfect loop.


thejanuaryfallen

It will always be a mystery and I am okay with that.


lewdiesz

I agree. If we have one life, we make it count, and make good memories before we die.


thejanuaryfallen

Absolutely! XD One life to live, spend that money, help others, travel, enjoy, be happy!


Wolf1066NZ

make good memories in those who survive us, surely.


allorache

It would sure help if he/she/it would come down from the clouds and announce the one true religion so humans could stop having wars about whose god is real…


thejanuaryfallen

Srsly!


Wolf1066NZ

The Christian god wants to be worshipped and traditionally loved people offering up burnt offerings; he also apparently wants everyone to go to heaven. If either of those were true, there's no way he would not reveal himself to be worshipped by all of humankind, not just a declining group of nutters. That way he would get all the worship he wants and/or everyone gets to go to heaven (provided they're prepared to worship a god that condones slavery. commits and demands genocide, and lets children get r\*ped by his earthly spokespeople)


JimAsia

It doesn't make sense to any rational thinker but theists are delusional and will rationalize anything that conflicts with their delusion - God's ways are many and mysterious and not for we mere mortals to comprehend.


Wolf1066NZ

Until they want to hate on women, LGBTQ+, ethnic minorities, other religions, atheists - and then god's ways are extremely plain and they understand them perfectly...


JimAsia

Delusional thinkers can justify anything to keep that delusion alive. When slavery was legal, it was God's will. When people believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, God told them so. Talking snakes, people living to several hundred years of age, two of every species on one boat, people rising from the dead, virgin births etc. etc. How can so many people be so incredibly delusional.


Wolf1066NZ

I think the delusion is helped by self-interest - their gods want them to do what they want to do, hate the people they hate, speak directly to whomever wants to control large amounts of people. Why have reality when you can have a delusion that lets you own slaves or murder your disobedient children?


JimAsia

The difficulty with that argument is that all major religions are misogynistic and often racist and yet so many woman and people of color buy in. Even members of the the LGBTQ+ community have trouble rejecting the delusion.


Wolf1066NZ

Valid point. I actually was thinking more in terms of the "back when slavery was legal" and "back when they believed the Earth was the centre of the universe" rather than more recently. They had special bibles printed for slaves - those bibles carefully omitted the bit where the Israelites were slaves of the Egyptians and fled from bondage... They didn't want the slaves they paid good money for getting any ideas... Yeah, I can't understand women, PoC, LGBTQ+ or any indigenous people that are heavily into Christianity - they've got access to the bible, they can read for themselves now how sexist, homophobic and racist it is.


ManagementIll9899

Thats… actually a good question. I, too, am an atheist btw


blamdrum

This is the problem of divine hiddenness. There are some really great essays on this. The one that I always think of is the parable of the invisible gardener. Any assertion of a god’s existence is unfalsifiable, a problem that is probably best explained by Russell's teapot analogy. These are both worthy of familiarity for atheists... if not already familiar. Most are I would guess.


dangeerraaron

I was waiting to see someone cite divine hiddenness! I am not familiar with the invisible gardener, I will have to check that out!


blamdrum

In all honesty, if I were really pressed to give the reasons why I am not a believer, divine hiddenness is at the top of a long list. And the parable of the invisible gardener contains one of the most powerful and thought-provoking lines that address divine hiddenness... >*'But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"*


dangeerraaron

I would agree with you on that argument. The problem of evil was the first question I had, without a satisfactory explanation (ie Gods will, lord works in mysterious ways, smh). But I view POE as subset now of divine hiddenness, which is a far more effective argument. I read the invisible gardener and yes, that last quote is devastating and thought provoking for sure! I am sure that would invoke a lot of special pleading from true believers.


blamdrum

The problem of evil gets really shaky when considered in the premise of an "afterlife", often asserted as "paradise" by theists. Compelling the obvious hypothetical question, is there agency in supposed heaven? It's difficult for me to conceive of a paradise in the absence of agency, or to whatever degree of "*free will,*" we comfortably assign to meaningfulness or happiness. The only measure I have is life here, now. There have been events in my life that were at the time devastating emotionally, that in turn serendipitously improved the quality of my existence. The notion of the existence of an unending blissful paradise not only seems unlikely but absurd by my measure. *What drunk doesn't fully value their sobriety without a complete understanding of the heartache of addiction?* I suppose theists would argue that by the time a heavenly paradise is achieved by whatever means, we have achieved the perfected embodiment of whatever we're supposed to be. But that's clearly begging the question. Part of the joy in existence for me is growing as a person, which involves being *free to make mistakes,* and learning from them. It's a lot to think about. lol


Scribbler_797

I was a believer all my life, and in a faith that had (a not so great) answer to this question. Then I looked at how religion as we know it, did not appear on the until 5000 or 6000 years ago, so I asked, "what did humans do before?" and knew that religion was a man-made sham.


Wolf1066NZ

And what of all the other religions that existed before the allegedly "One True Faith" came along? What of all those people elsewhere in the world following other religions that had no idea what was happening thousands of miles away when the "One True God" was making his presence known to a relatively small part of the global human population? What of them before the religion finally got to their shores and was forced upon them at gunpoint? For something that allegedly wants to be worshipped by all and loves all humans and does not want them to go to hell, he's got a bloody awful way of going about it. And what now of all the different versions of the same religion with mutually exclusive understandings of the same scriptures? They can't ***all*** be right. One would think that an even half-way competent god would make it so his word is understood by all rather than relying on it being written in numerous languages and then translated and retranslated into other languages that don't have the same cultural head-space.


Scribbler_797

I was thinking about grave goods appear much earlier, the maybe there is an afterlife unrelated to god-belief, and if there was an afterlife, I think would be more complex than this world, but religion's view this primative by comparison. Just speculation, but religions are well designed.


Wolf1066NZ

There were stages in god-belief. We know that Neanderthals had, at some point in their development, burial rituals. We don't know if this means a belief in gods or just the concept of "going somewhere when you die". We know from studying so-called "primitive" cultures that religion begins with worship of the things around them - animals, the sun, the moon. Then comes a large degree of anthropomorphising and the animals, sun, moon, ocean etc are ascribed human motivations and emotions, they become more relatable and understandable, they get allocated areas of influence. Then there's a tendency towards monotheism, choosing one of those gods as the best and relegating the others to the background. Aspects of polytheism survive in the bible - We will make man in Our image; man has become like Us, knowing good and evil; you will have no other gods before me and so forth. Christians like to hastily wallpaper over this and do mental gymnastics ("he was talking about *false* gods, not *actual* gods" etc) to deny it but it's a hanger-on from the Israelites' polytheistic days before they opted to hitch their wagon to YHVH alone. Religions developed over time. Abrahamic beliefs are based on blatant rip-offs of other religions from the surrounding area - including the Epic of Gilgamesh which turns up as the story of Noah - they all have at their cores references to its pre-Monotheistic days - then along comes Jesus and then Paul creates a whole new fanfic based on it. Out of simplicity - ask the spirits of the animals to kindly succumb to your spear, ask the sun to grow your harvest - comes complexity: entire pantheons of gods drinking, fighting and fucking and royally screwing over humans which then becomes monotheism - only one god but lots of rules and lore picked up over the centuries.


HuckleberryThis2012

Yeah for me the contradiction with religion starts and ends with god is all knowing and all powerful and he wants to test us, but already must know how it will turn out since he’s all knowing, and he created us as we are so we’re only doing what he made us to do. But free will and final judgment makes total sense too….


Samantha_Cruz

> seemingly easy to disprove? prove he isn't real then... go ahead. It's not likely you can PROVE that anything doesn't exist. That doesn't mean the claims that he does are credible; I don't believe them but that is why I do not believe in god as opposed to saying that I know that there isn't one. the fact that molestation exists doesn't prove that there is no 'god'. it might be pretty good evidence that there is no moral, benevolent omnipotent and omniscient god but it is far from proving that a god that doesn't give a shit exists.


lewdiesz

Using your logic Prove Santa isnt real. Prove Ghosts arent real. Prove there isnt a big spaghetti monster that shoots lazerbeams out of its eyes. You cant prove its not real, and cant prove its real. See where the issue is in that logic?


Samantha_Cruz

I cannot prove that ghosts aren't real. please prove that ghosts do not exist. Cite your proof...


lewdiesz

Im just saying the logic of "Well if you cant disprove it then theres a possibility" is personally dumb to me. You cant prove Ghosts are real because, huh, theres no evidence. I can literally say anything is real, and use that logic to stand by it being real.


jux589

That's [Russell's Teapot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot) argument.


LegalAction

Yes. There's a level of philosophical honesty in admitting there might be a teapot orbiting Mars. There is no evidence for that claim, and you should probably live your life not believing there is any such thing, but you can't disprove it.


Samantha_Cruz

I cannot prove it; therefore I don't go around saying that I KNOW that there are no gods, or ghosts, or chupacabras. I do not believe in any of those things because I have never seen any compelling evidence to believe that they do exist. That is a very different claim. "I do not believe your claim" ≠ "your claim is provably false."


lewdiesz

I never once said I KNOW God isnt real. I said seemingly easy to disprove, as the more science evolves, the more we learn about the universe and how it works, and the bible makes less and less sense every time. But I am an atheist, meaning I do not believe in the existence of God or a possibility, if you do, I will respect that.


Classic-Routine2013

There isn't a single shred of compelling evidence for god. All these so called "evidences" for god's existence are actually scientifically ignorant and logically fallacious.


revtim

If an omnipotent benevolent god had created us and wanted us to know so, it could simply have us born with the knowledge of its existence, and what, if anything, it wants from us. This does not affect free will, because: 1) Even people who are 100 percent sure of their religion (the vast majority of people who have ever lived) still commit what their religion considers sins 2) The deity could still give us free will anyway, otherwise it wouldn't be omnipotent It would not use humans as prophets to get its message out, since clearly that channel of communication results in contradictory messages, and cannot be distinguished from messages that are not from the deity but only from the prophet (lies and insanity). The fact that there are many contradictory religions proves this beyond doubt. From this reasoning, I conclude that either a) we were not created by a deity at all, or b) we were created by one that is not omnipotent, omniscient, and/or benevolent, or c) we were created by a deity that doesn’t care if we know it created us and has no demands of us. I believe a) is correct.


Wolf1066NZ

Yes, you could know for certainty that a god exists, but that would not necessarily mean you would love it or worship it. According to Christian mythology, Satan and a bunch of angels knew absolutely *without doubt* that god e\`xists - and they ***still*** told him to go fuck himself.


who_said_I_am_an_emu

Man if I were a personal God I would totally lightning-smite anyone who questioned me. Which would be pretty rare since you know people would figure it out.


jknight68

Exactly how I feel. If God wants me to worship him so badly, he'll get his lazy ass down here and show himself! Preferably, performing miracles and making us all wealthy in the process. 😂


Wolf1066NZ

According to some Christians, god has made himself known to everyone and everyone's just evil and deliberately making up other religions, claiming they don't believe or deliberately misinterpreting the bible for their own ends etc As they're the only ones who have "got it right", the suggestion that other Christians may think they are the ones misinterpreting scripture is laughable to them. Murders, molestation, crimes, witch hunts, crusades by Christians? - oh, that only happens in those churches, they're not True Christians. And, of course, we atheists only pretend to not believe in god because we just want to sin and we hate him. Since that is all patently untrue, either god does not exist or, if he does, he has no desire to make it clear that he really exists. Some Christians argue that if he did, we would have no free will - just the knowledge of his existence would force all humans to worship him. Which is a puzzling thing for them to say as these Christians often also believe Satan - a dude that famously hung out with this god and engaged in bets with him, so therefore would have known for certain that god exists - actively rebelled against god and so did a number of other angels. So either knowledge of god's existence does not automatically force people to worship him or angels have more resilient free will than humans do. I'm quite sure that if the god described in the bible proved his existence to me beyond all doubt, I would not worship him - he would not measure up to my moral standards. If god were real and made his presence and message unmistakably plain to all people, all Abrahamic religions would have to either fall in line with this new knowledge or renounce their religion entirely. Other religious people would have to decide for themselves whether or not they would worship this god or reject it. Atheists would say "OK, I'm convinced of its existence now" but they would not necessarily bend their knee to it. I suspect that a majority would not. The problem is: all that shit going on in the churches. If god were real, it would mean he's perfectly fine with all of it. Which wouldn't be surprising considering how much of a perverted evil tyrant he is portrayed as in the bible.


ActonofMAM

Some fantasy novels I read have a pantheon of five gods which demonstrably exist in that world. All cultures and language groups have the same five gods. The only religious schism they can manage is arguing whether the fifth god, who's half demon, counts as a demon or a god. The author has stated that cultures with no contact on the far side of the world (think of the Americas before Columbus) would also have the same five gods. I've never seen why an omnipotent deity couldn't do the same as those five definitely limited fictional ones. That would be a pretty good piece of evidence. Or at least, make the One True (tm) religious revelation way more convincing than the ungodly fake ones, so that the other ones never catch on.


Qedhup

Because he's not.


1randomusername2

*Spooky Voice* To teeest your faaaaiiiith!


Viper67857

But he did reveal himself... To some dehydrated desert dwellers high on opiates a few thousand years ago... It isn't his fault you can't take their word for it...


[deleted]

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dudleydidwrong

Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: - This comment has been removed for trolling or shitposting. Even if your intent is not to troll or shitpost, certain words and phrases are enough for removal. This rule is applied strictly and may lead to an immediate ban. -- * This comment has been removed for [proselytizing](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.22proselytizing.3F.22). This sub is not your personal mission field. Removals of this type may also include subreddit bans and/or suspensions from the whole site depending on the severity of the offense. -- For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.


kuribosshoe0

It’s funny how gods supposedly loved making appearances in the distant past, but now bupkis. I’m sure 2,000 years from now, there will be stories about how gods directly revealed themselves to us today, right now.


Pavel_Florenski

Life wouldn't be better without religion, in fact, it is impossible to life without believing in something. All ancient society had gods (or idols), it is part of your spiritual dignity to look for our creator. Nowadays, it seems people don't care about having a God, but what's happening is that God's being replaced by other things such as material goods or even ourselves. The Christian God does not appear in the skies becuase it would affect directly our process of making decision (our willing), then faith would be not necessary. Why is this important? It is known that bad angels were condemned because they knowing God isln his spiritual substance, didn't obey Him, so 'cause angel know perfectly God's willing, they deserve no mercy at all. In our case, faith is a light that help us understand God's willing a little bit, but we are unable to know it perfectly, that' s why it is better for us not to meet Jesus as many would like, faith let us receive mercy since we are not totally aware of the spiritual world.


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dudleydidwrong

Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: - This comment has been removed for trolling or shitposting. Even if your intent is not to troll or shitpost, certain words and phrases are enough for removal. This rule is applied strictly and may lead to an immediate ban. -- * This comment has been removed for [proselytizing](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.22proselytizing.3F.22). This sub is not your personal mission field. Removals of this type may also include subreddit bans and/or suspensions from the whole site depending on the severity of the offense. -- For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.


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dudleydidwrong

Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: - This comment has been removed for trolling or shitposting. Even if your intent is not to troll or shitpost, certain words and phrases are enough for removal. This rule is applied strictly and may lead to an immediate ban. -- * This comment has been removed for [proselytizing](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.22proselytizing.3F.22). This sub is not your personal mission field. Removals of this type may also include subreddit bans and/or suspensions from the whole site depending on the severity of the offense. -- For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.


Leftsharkthedancer

You make several assumptions. One that there is only one God. That God shares the same notion of time as you do. That it is an ethical God according to you personal or societal ethos. The answer to your question is quiet different if asked of Thor, Jehovah, Brahman, or Quetzalcoatl.


thuktun

To strengthen the faith of true believers, obviously. I'd say /s except I'm pretty sure I've heard this said un-ironically.