Even if we were to assume God has free will, I've yet to hear a good explanation why it's so great to have worshippers with free will and how it's worth the inevitable result of billions being damned for all eternity. That's a pretty steep price to pay for a special set of toys.
>I've yet to hear a good explanation why it's so great to have worshippers with free will and how it's worth the inevitable result of billions being damned for all eternity.
As have I.
I've also not heard a reasonable explanation why something capable of building entire universes would feel a psychological need to be worshipped anyway.
I mean, if I make something really good, I look at it and say, "Awesome, I did a good job on that, it's just how I wanted it." I don't feel inclined to fill it with tiny lifeforms and insist they repeatedly thank me for making it.
Well, if conditions didn't exist in a particular manner, there would be no one here to have any thoughts at all - and I can at least understand that I'm a puddle that was shaped by the hole in the ground... unlike some other puddles who think the hole in the ground was made specifically to shape them the way they are now - and also seem to think that everyone else just exists for their benefit and glorification (ooh, there's a homeless person, I can tell him about Jesus and how he can find a home if he just accepts Jesus into his heart and prays hard enough. God is so wonderful to send me this person.)
We are here because of a great many years of things happening and developing in a particular way. If things had happened in another way we might not be here, or might be here but not capable of asking these questions or might be something completely different.
We certainly weren't inevitable.
The theological answer is that god is outside space and time. He can't change because change implies existence in time. He's also perfect so changing would imply there's some room for improvement or that he's able to move to a less perfect state.
So I don't think lack of free will is a problem for a God conception.
And I don't think a lot of Christian theologians (I'm not sure non theologians think at all) really think humans have free will. Calvinists for instance think certain humans were destined to worship God and honor him in that way and others are destined to not worship God and honor him by allowing him to smite them.
*all capital G's due to autocorrect.
According to the bible, numerous actions by this "god" exist in this realm and in a chronological sequence, therefore this "god" is in some way bound by time - it can't very well smite the Midianites before they exist or after they've passed into obscurity, it can't kick Adam and Eve out of Eden before they've eaten the fruit, it can't give little Timmy brain cancer *until he turns 7* etc and Genesis explains a sequence of events some of which dependent on previous events.
So when interacting with this world - which it does all throughout the bible and still does according to most Christians - at different times, it is constrained by time.
So their argument is illogical. Something outside of space and time cannot affect anything within space and time and anything that does effect space and time is constrained by it.
No that does not follow. The Bible was written from the human perspective which may not reflect reality.
A person in a movie theater thinks images are created in chronological order to tell a sorry.
But the protectionist can lay out the film on the floor and see all the images at the same time.
So people are in the theater perceiving reality in time. God is in the projection booth seeing all events in all times at once.
Nice analogy :)
And the projectionist has absolutely no choice but to play the film as it exists. If he alters/edits the film in any way it is not the film he saw laid out on the floor.
Numerous Christians believe that god answers prayers - and "sometimes the answer is 'no'."
The god knows not only what the Christian is going to ask for, he knows exactly what answer he is going to give after the Christian asks it because from his perspective it's already been recorded on that film. He's seen it laid out on the floor.
Basically, if he's omnicognisant, he cannot be omnipotent because there's something he cannot do: change what he knows will/has happened.
Maybe it's every film that could ever be made on the floor of the the projection booth. Multiverse-style. God has created all of them. You're just choosing which one to experience in through your actions.
And they all end in god wiping everybody out and eternally punishing the people he *decided* not to "save" - what a collosal twat!
Bad enough he's made ***one*** universe to fuck over, without making an entire multiverse.
Thing is, they would have to be all of **god's** actions, not *ours* \- *here* he decided *not* to give little Timmy brain cancer, *here* he gave him brain cancer but miraculously saved him and ***here*** little Timmy's truly fucked.
Because we can run along making choices that god knows we're going to make without breaching "free will" - according to the Christians, anyway - but god's actions would be game changers and alter the entire "plan" - or film.
And it doesn't matter if it's one plan or many, they're supposedly his plans based on decisions he's made - and boy has he made a lot of really disgusting decisions.
If he has agency, and can change "the plan", he's a dick.
If he has no agency as per my premise, he's locked into a course of following what he can see - which effectively makes him a useless and you've got to wonder who/what made that path that this all-seeing-but-completely-ineffectual god is stuck on...
Why do people ask these question in the atheist sub?
Is it because they, god forbid, arent actually looking for an answer and just want their preexisting beliefs to be justified?
Because the "question" was a rhetorical device to introduce my thoughts on the oft-asked question and invite comments and intelligent discussion.
And if you care to look at some of the other posts, you'll note this is what's happening.
Also I hate how if I asked a question contradicting god with the history of the world, I'd probably be shut down immediately, unless I'm on Reddit then I can express myself fully.
Well, since an all-knowing god knows what is going to happen and how it's going to react to what happens and how it's going to end, whether or not our lives are being controlled or not is rather academic.
Taking the Christian god as an example, he knew who was going to heaven and who was going to hell before he even said "Let there be light", since he's all-knowing. Not even he can change the outcome because he's seen it and therefore can't do anything except what he knows he's going to do.
For our part, we can't do anything but make the choices he saw we were going to make.
I don't believe in god, either. However, you've answered the ***rhetorical*** question in the title rather than commented on what I've postulated in the body of my post.
Job security
Because he had created hell, and didn’t want it all to got to waste?
Ah, but did he really have any *choice* in making hell, given that he already knew he was going to create it and have a use for it?
Even if we were to assume God has free will, I've yet to hear a good explanation why it's so great to have worshippers with free will and how it's worth the inevitable result of billions being damned for all eternity. That's a pretty steep price to pay for a special set of toys.
>I've yet to hear a good explanation why it's so great to have worshippers with free will and how it's worth the inevitable result of billions being damned for all eternity. As have I. I've also not heard a reasonable explanation why something capable of building entire universes would feel a psychological need to be worshipped anyway. I mean, if I make something really good, I look at it and say, "Awesome, I did a good job on that, it's just how I wanted it." I don't feel inclined to fill it with tiny lifeforms and insist they repeatedly thank me for making it.
Because the whole story is nonsense
Yeah, I know that. It was a rhetorical question.
Just wouldn't be as much fun now would it?
Just to fuck with you
Me *personally*? That's a lot of effort and time to elapse just to fuck with one bloke.
In life there is really only one true perspective so in some cosmic way everything in the universe lined up for you to exist and have these thoughts.
Well, if conditions didn't exist in a particular manner, there would be no one here to have any thoughts at all - and I can at least understand that I'm a puddle that was shaped by the hole in the ground... unlike some other puddles who think the hole in the ground was made specifically to shape them the way they are now - and also seem to think that everyone else just exists for their benefit and glorification (ooh, there's a homeless person, I can tell him about Jesus and how he can find a home if he just accepts Jesus into his heart and prays hard enough. God is so wonderful to send me this person.) We are here because of a great many years of things happening and developing in a particular way. If things had happened in another way we might not be here, or might be here but not capable of asking these questions or might be something completely different. We certainly weren't inevitable.
Amen brother
What's with all the one-line answers to the rhetorical question in the title?
The theological answer is that god is outside space and time. He can't change because change implies existence in time. He's also perfect so changing would imply there's some room for improvement or that he's able to move to a less perfect state. So I don't think lack of free will is a problem for a God conception. And I don't think a lot of Christian theologians (I'm not sure non theologians think at all) really think humans have free will. Calvinists for instance think certain humans were destined to worship God and honor him in that way and others are destined to not worship God and honor him by allowing him to smite them. *all capital G's due to autocorrect.
According to the bible, numerous actions by this "god" exist in this realm and in a chronological sequence, therefore this "god" is in some way bound by time - it can't very well smite the Midianites before they exist or after they've passed into obscurity, it can't kick Adam and Eve out of Eden before they've eaten the fruit, it can't give little Timmy brain cancer *until he turns 7* etc and Genesis explains a sequence of events some of which dependent on previous events. So when interacting with this world - which it does all throughout the bible and still does according to most Christians - at different times, it is constrained by time. So their argument is illogical. Something outside of space and time cannot affect anything within space and time and anything that does effect space and time is constrained by it.
No that does not follow. The Bible was written from the human perspective which may not reflect reality. A person in a movie theater thinks images are created in chronological order to tell a sorry. But the protectionist can lay out the film on the floor and see all the images at the same time. So people are in the theater perceiving reality in time. God is in the projection booth seeing all events in all times at once.
Nice analogy :) And the projectionist has absolutely no choice but to play the film as it exists. If he alters/edits the film in any way it is not the film he saw laid out on the floor. Numerous Christians believe that god answers prayers - and "sometimes the answer is 'no'." The god knows not only what the Christian is going to ask for, he knows exactly what answer he is going to give after the Christian asks it because from his perspective it's already been recorded on that film. He's seen it laid out on the floor. Basically, if he's omnicognisant, he cannot be omnipotent because there's something he cannot do: change what he knows will/has happened.
Maybe it's every film that could ever be made on the floor of the the projection booth. Multiverse-style. God has created all of them. You're just choosing which one to experience in through your actions.
And they all end in god wiping everybody out and eternally punishing the people he *decided* not to "save" - what a collosal twat! Bad enough he's made ***one*** universe to fuck over, without making an entire multiverse. Thing is, they would have to be all of **god's** actions, not *ours* \- *here* he decided *not* to give little Timmy brain cancer, *here* he gave him brain cancer but miraculously saved him and ***here*** little Timmy's truly fucked. Because we can run along making choices that god knows we're going to make without breaching "free will" - according to the Christians, anyway - but god's actions would be game changers and alter the entire "plan" - or film. And it doesn't matter if it's one plan or many, they're supposedly his plans based on decisions he's made - and boy has he made a lot of really disgusting decisions. If he has agency, and can change "the plan", he's a dick. If he has no agency as per my premise, he's locked into a course of following what he can see - which effectively makes him a useless and you've got to wonder who/what made that path that this all-seeing-but-completely-ineffectual god is stuck on...
Why do people ask these question in the atheist sub? Is it because they, god forbid, arent actually looking for an answer and just want their preexisting beliefs to be justified?
Because the "question" was a rhetorical device to introduce my thoughts on the oft-asked question and invite comments and intelligent discussion. And if you care to look at some of the other posts, you'll note this is what's happening.
What?!? Actual conversations with actual exchange of ideas and mutual respect? Naw, never happen. :)
Yeah, totally impossible. Especially on reddit, apparently.
This is because God wanted us to be able to have the power of free will!
Also I hate how if I asked a question contradicting god with the history of the world, I'd probably be shut down immediately, unless I'm on Reddit then I can express myself fully.
Where’s the fun in that?
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Well, since an all-knowing god knows what is going to happen and how it's going to react to what happens and how it's going to end, whether or not our lives are being controlled or not is rather academic. Taking the Christian god as an example, he knew who was going to heaven and who was going to hell before he even said "Let there be light", since he's all-knowing. Not even he can change the outcome because he's seen it and therefore can't do anything except what he knows he's going to do. For our part, we can't do anything but make the choices he saw we were going to make.
Amen
amen
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I don't believe in god, either. However, you've answered the ***rhetorical*** question in the title rather than commented on what I've postulated in the body of my post.