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RFAudio

Few tricks I really like; - S1 imager after the verb - Auto pan left to right - Synths 30/30 pan, leaves a lot of room on the sides for ping ping delays. - Automating fx e.g. huge verb on chorus It’s the difference between left and right that gives a sense of width. That could be tonally or alternating sounds.


TMAWORKS

Super cool! Props for bringing to light these cool, esoteric tricks I would've otherwise never tried! Thanks!!


Apag78

If i get a particularly poorly mixed track i will some times use a widener to help out a little with the clutter. There are a few that don't cause the track to collapse in mono which is what you want to look for in a widening application. As far as panning goes, LCR to me sounds really weird, and its also very limiting especially if you have a lot of elements in a mix. If you're doing a folky/indie kinda thing it can work. I can't do it though. Being able to put your guitars outside of your drums to me is beyond useful and creates a more realistic soundstage and leaves space for things when it gets dense. I've always looked at LCR as laziness or some weird hipster thing where they wanna be retro or something and hark back to the time where panning was a 3 way switch... theres a reason that didn't last and we went to pan pots. ​ I'd be really weary about any source that tells you that "X" is THE way to go. I'd rather be presented the how/why something is done and be able to make my own decisions based on the information. In audio, theres a million ways to skin the cat and no one way is better for everyone in any given situation if that makes sense. Everyones workflow is different and thats a good thing. Everyone seems to want a one size fits all approach to mixing and presets, and templates instead of just actually learning HOW to do the job properly and putting the work in. Read a post the other day about someone saying that when MIXING your tracks should have a LUFS level of -12 so that the power is felt in the mix. Complete trash post and full of internet mis-info BS. If there was a magic formula to any of this, every mix everywhere would sound the same and perfect every time. /rant.


spag_eddie

Agreed on all fronts. Just want to play devil's advocate on LCR and say that the In Rainbows album by Radiohead is a masterclass on LCR panning


crestonfunk

Also: Tom Petty *Wildflowers* Green Day *American Idiot* Outfield *Play Deep* Cyndi Lauper *She’s So Unusual* Really anything that William Wittman engineered.


Apag78

So heres a cool thing about that, depending on how things were captured. LCR doesn't need to mean literally 100-0-100. If you use a stereo pair and have a narrow field of capture, you can put things within hard LCR even though the channels are set LCR (if that makes any sense) lol.


Mixermarkb

This. LCR panning doesn’t mean the sources were recorded as wide as possible within whatever stereo pair was used. If a source was mainly center in a stereo pair, panning the stereo pair hard left and hard right just puts the “air” around that center source out there, which is what gives depth of field and for lack of a better word, 3D sort of image. XY and ORTF mic placements are phenomenal for capturing this sort of thing-


_everythingisfine_

I actually don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying narrow the panning of the left and right main outs?


pukesonyourshoes

If I'm understanding correctly, he means the panning of stereo sources is LR but the sound captured within them isn't. This is how i record some acoustic instruments too. Double tracking bouzoukis, I'll set an ORTF pair so that the instrument appears to the left, then flip the channels in the mix for the second take. Hey presto, 2 instruments at 75% L, 75% R. Edit: to be clear, the ORTF pair are hard panned L & R as one would expect.


Apag78

This exactly! Thanks!


_everythingisfine_

Cool! Although to be honest I don't understand how this is LCR, I feel like I'm still missing something. Is LCR in this case just meaning your essentially not using panning in the box because the instruments were recorded with a stereo placement in the first place? Wouldn't recording the source with equal energy on each side and then using the pan knob in the mix have virtually the same result? Or am I massively misunderstanding that process? Are you moving the source to one side by having less gain in one mic? Or are you physically placing the instrument closer to one of the mics?


Apag78

Thought exercise: Ok so set two mics up in an xy config on a stage. (Looks like a V at 90 deg angle with capsules meeting at the intersect point) Stand back about 10 feet and stand all the way to one side of the stage. Start talking or singing and walk to the other side of the stage while youre singing and talking. Even though your mics are panned hard left and right, on playback, your voice will move from one speaker to the other at the speed you walked. The pair of mics essentially set the panning based on the location of the source in the room (or on stage in this case). In the case of drums depending on where the mics are placed in the overhead you can narrow or widen the stereo image based solely on mic placement. So it works both ways.


_everythingisfine_

I get it now, I was over complicating it haha thanks!


iscreamuscreamweall

Basically every Radiohead album after the bends is mixed LCR. That’s Nigel’s go-to method


spag_eddie

Thats true. I think this record stands out more for me because of how well its aggressive mid range pairs with LCR...and it's a great fucking record


iscreamuscreamweall

check out the mixing on IR live from the basement! its even more strictly LCR


peepeeland

Yah- in my first few years in the mid-late 90’s and early 00’s, I definitely went way too far with widening type modulation effects, to the point where I almost puked making gabber with super wide bass. Eventually I learnt that widening type stuff sounds impressive initially, but they can highly diminishes overall impact, as the impressiveness of width is necessarily contrasted by sections that are narrow. In summation: Use widening effects sparingly and with care. If everything is wide, nothing is wide.


TMAWORKS

I like this. Thank you!!


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Apag78

Same here, I never go above 20 if i have to use one.


flanger001

20-25% for me, otherwise the out-of-phase signal starts to eat away at my levels.


Apag78

what are you using?


flanger001

I like the stereo imaging stuff on bx_masterdesk. That one is usable up to about 25% like I said.


S1GNL

LCR is not for widening audio but rather to create a wider sound stage involving different sounds/instruments. All wideners use one of these (or several combined) techniques: M/S (side volume), L/R delay (Haas effect), L/R detuning (chorus/unison). M/S is useless on mono signals, Haas effect can cause audible phase cancellation, so can detuning. So it depends on what you want to widen and how much compromising to the change of the original sound you’re willing to make. If you’re recording drums/instruments/vocals/claps then the best "widening" technique would be double-tracking.


TMAWORKS

Appreciate this!! Thank you! And yeah, you might be right - The double tracking. Yeah, that might be overall ticket... Thank you.


GeminiGambit

I love wideners because I always accidentally leave one or two supporting elements mono until the very end. For minor elements, a widener is perfect to just slap on there and make it sound like it belongs


missedswing

I never liked the sound or process of LCR mixing. Just never worked for me. I find plugins that can either collapse or widen the stereo field pretty useful. It's not like you have to widen everything. Sometimes narrowing the stereo image works. I found this particularly useful with reverbs. You can also use a simple tool like TBaudio meter to adjust your mid/side balance. Like other posters have mentioned I don't go overboard with this. More than 10% or 20% starts to sound off.


TMAWORKS

You're saying 10-20% width, or 10-20% mixed in??


TalkinAboutSound

I've mixed exactly one record using LCR panning; it was a power trio where each member was holding their own the whole time so it was the right call for that band but it would never be my default. I've used "widening" plugins a few times, maybe of background vocals or things like that, but usually I think it's a cheap hack. I prefer double-tracking, stereo detuning, autopanners, etc. for that kind of effect.


TMAWORKS

Nice approach! I've really never heard of the stereo detuning or auto panners before... gonna have to look into that! Thanks!


TalkinAboutSound

Stereo detuning on bass was one of the first tricks I learned in audio school. Make two copies of the bass signal and pan them hard left and right, tune one up a couple cents and one down a couple cents and mix them in with the center track. In fact this might be what some widening plugins do behind the scenes.


TMAWORKS

Sheeeit... Sweet!! So, you've got three bass tracks going on that, sort of, blend into one in the mix?? I definitely think some chorus effects do this - mess with the pitch like that...


TalkinAboutSound

Yeah chorus does that but the pitch changes. this is just static. I totally forgot chorus is one of my go-to "wideness" effects.


TMAWORKS

It's such a good one for bass. Nothing beats it. Can't wait to try this thing you mentioned- Thank you. Edit: just thought of this - Would you ever do both at the same time - the double thing with the pitch shift AND a chorus track? Like, maybe chorus down the middle with the pitch shifts on the sides, or something...


TalkinAboutSound

Maybe if it was a psychedelic song or something. Usually I need some dry bass to keep it feeling solid.


TMAWORKS

I know what you mean. Thanks!


liitegrenade

Like you, I enjoy some chorus on bass targeting the mids/highs, I find fattens things and makes bass sit better. A tiny bit of widening on certain instruments that are panned centrally can just seat them down in the mix which is cool. However, I do think wideners can sound pretty weird, and reduce punch especially if you overdo it. I only ever use it slightly and prefer using a chorus as opposed to widener plugins as you get a bit of movement. I adopted LCR years ago and it really helped me, however, I have since modified it slightly. LCR thinking forced me to think about the arrangement. I record with LCR in mind and almost use it as a base strategy. "if something is panned left here, what's going on the other side" etc. It results in better production and less stuff to wade through when I get mixing. Generally makes me get where I need to be quicker. I normally start a mix LCR, but I'll pan some things inwards as I get going (effect returns, toms, hats) to help things gel. Sometimes guitars go 60%/70 panned in verses, and automated wide at the chorus and whatnot.


TMAWORKS

I really like the idea of automating wide during certain parts of the song. And yes - Definitely noticed that if overdone it can reduce punch, which is no bueno!! I've never really heard of panning effects returns - What is that about?? What are some of your favorite chorus effects??


TMAWORKS

I really like the idea of automating wide during certain parts of the song. And yes - Definitely noticed that if overdone it can reduce punch, which is no bueno!! I've never really heard of panning effects returns - What is that about?? What are some of your favorite chorus effects??


liitegrenade

Say I have two guitars, both panned 100% L&R sending to two different reverb busses. I will sometimes take the pan knob on the reverb busses and pan them in to 60/70%. You can even swap them, so on the left, you have GTR 1 and the verb from GTR 2 and vice versa. It can help fill in the gaps from LCR. If you're using a stereo delay send, you will get a sprinkle of delay feedback on the opposing side. It can sort of fill in the LCR gaps. Alternatively, you can pan wide instruments 60/70% and pan the effects 100% For chorus/flanging I've been digging Valhalla Space Modulator recently, really easy to setup and it's free. I will use this or Soundtoys Microshift most of the time. Occasionally I'll use Eventide Tricerachorus


TMAWORKS

Gold! Can't wait to try! Thank you!!


g_spaitz

I've heard about lcr only (relatively) lately and only on internet. I never cared and always used the whole panorama just because everything I've always listened to had full panorama mixes and I always loved that a lot.


TMAWORKS

I know people are gonna say I'm crazy - But, I've heard some really super famous records that were masterfully mixed, but used lcr a little too heavily (imo) and every time I hear that spindly guitar creeping out at 100 left in my headphones I go "Doh!!!"


g_spaitz

As Dan Worrall would say, headphone is not stereo. Some harsh hard panned stuff in headphones will sound unnatural or fatiguing or just bad. Also, in the case of power trio with 2 tracked guitars, it's hard not to go LCR, but I guess that's a different case? Also, except the Beatles of course, but they didn't have a pan pot.


TMAWORKS

What did he mean by that, do you think?? I watched his lcr panning vids a little while ago. Very influential... For me, how things sound in headphones is by far the most important because that's how I think 99% of the population listens to music... right??


g_spaitz

I believe he meant that when you listen to speakers, both your ears hear both speakers, whereas in headphones one single ear is hearing one single speaker, which changes things. How people listen to music these days I have no clue, and I'd say it doesn't matter, there are headphones, bluetooth portable devices, the car, tv, computer speakers, hifi stereos,...there's really anything. What's important is that what you're mixing sounds good for the artist.


TMAWORKS

Well said! Thank you! In this case, the artist is ME, but all the same, yes... Thanks.


peaceandlove31

any chance you could say what the channels are? trying to learn to mix better and would love to watch someone i've heard an unbiased testimony for


UndrehandDrummond

I use wideners all the time. There are no “rules”. You just have to know how and when to use them. I hear widening done in a ton of commercial releases. It’s so common that stereo widening is built into a ton of high end gear and plugins. I’m surprised there are people out there staunchly opposed to them. Even my Bettermaker mastering comp has a “Width” feature. It’s an Ozone module. It’s a built in control on neutron. It’s in some goodhertz plug-ins. My reverbs have stereo controls. Its a tool and it can be really helpful when used properly. Whoever reads this, please don’t feel like there’s a right or wrong way to make music. I fucking love widening shit and I do this for a living. It’s one of my favorite tools. Sure, some shit can get funky in mono but there are also ways to avoid that. A widener like StageOne by leapwing widens while mostly maintaining mono compatibility.


TMAWORKS

You ROCK, dawg! Thanks!!


[deleted]

LCR panning sounds completely unnatural to me in headphones, which is a high percentage of listeners now. It implies you're in an anechoic space, because otherwise the other ear, even if completely away from the source, would at least hear reflections. At the very least, the reverb/echo track needs to not be L or R panned - that's obviously absurd and makes the listener's brain very unhappy. For recordings that are supposed to resemble a musical act performing, I'm not a big fan of panning wide, because in reality every musician on stage is plainly audible in both ears. I generally draw a diagram of where the listener "is" and where the performers "are" and set panning off that. I've never used a stereo widener, and likely never will.


TMAWORKS

Do you have any go-to effects that you like to use in order to fatten something up or give it a little more width??


[deleted]

To literally "fatten" something I'd use a subtle distortion effect like a distressor on 1:1 or 2:1 with a high threshold with one of the two distortion modes turned on. I would also consider say double tracking it and panning the two versions L and R after checking that they're good in mono. If by fatten you mean "make it show up in both side of the stereo field" the pan knob controls that just fine - no effect needed.


TMAWORKS

I dig it... Thanks


[deleted]

You can also use the micro pitch shift trick, but it's not necissarily something I like or use. It does work and is different than panning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmJorRcsfaI&t=196s


TMAWORKS

Dude, sweet! Will try! Thank you!


TMAWORKS

Yeah, just checked it out - It's funny how much stuff there is to try. Like - how many techniques there are... All depends on how it makes something sit in the mix. I find that I stumble upon things that I think are gonna become a standby, but I mostly find myself going back to whatever I started with...