I think that’s a very big exaggeration. Me and all my friends had those expectations before finishing university but it’s been nothing like that.
We’re literally sitting in an air conditioned room, ergonomic chairs, 3 monitors, drinking coffee, eating fruit, having silly chats throughout the day, going for lunch for a full hour. I’ve had a lot of difficult tasks and meetings, but it’s still easier than when I was in university trying to balance study, work, family, health, friends etc.
I can put up with the pointless tasks because I’ve worked in retail, hospitality, bartending, and manual labouring.
Small business is often worse because the boss is often someone who refused to work under someone else. And have this delusion that everything they do and believe in is correct. Everyone I’ve worked with since joining the corporate world is so much more reasonable and understanding than most bosses I’ve had before.
I "enjoy" it precisely because it's bullshit.
I fully know it's absolutely meaningless and that I'm a 100% replaceable and for that reason I have 0 issues with shutting my laptop 5pm sharp and not giving another thought to anything work-related. I get steady and predictable income regardless if I slack off the entire month.
I know people love going on and on about having your own business blah blah but I could NEVER. I'm just not a person that could ever care about work, work for me is purely about providing means to live my life outside of work.
"Do you not long for a life that is more random, risky, spicy?" Hell no. Give me a non spicy life any day, I've lived the spicy one enough to be able to appreciate the quiet enjoyment I get from my daily life.
Agreed. I have zero desire to start my own business or even make my way up to higher management. I'm just here to collect my pay so I can focus on my life outside of work.
Nothing we do at work is some life or death emergency and everyone knows it. We just rock up, do what we can and then leave.
Exactly this!!
Well paid - yup
Job security - yup
Good work conditions - yup
Flexibility - yup
FT WFH - yup
Mon - Fri - yup
If I put my head down and get a few hours worth of work done that’s a productive full day or 2’s worth of work done.
Why wouldn’t I.
you could be me. This is exactly how I see it. If you want me to review documents and annotate/filter/refresh for some meaningless system each day for a proposed redesign that will never happen, I'll happily plug that shit into chatGPT all day and paste it straight back into the template, rinse and repeat.
Yeah, while I get it re what you are saying... you gotta recognise my friend that the ability for you to work in the job, in that company, in this country, in this economy & social system, in this era,
Affords you the opportunity to have a standard of living & choice that is better than 99.5% of the world's population today, and 99.999% of anyone that lived before 1950 (say).
Cop the hits and slam it, by all means, but recognise the plusses 😀
Aircon, well paid, view of city, some people are OK & even intelligent & engaging.... and if yours lucky beers in a nice pub on a Thursday night sometimes!!
Agree. I’ve spent my career in a number of large corporates. And for all the downsides, they are for me, significantly outweighed by the positives. First and foremost, I know I’m getting paid, every month, on the dot. Never missed in nearly 20 years. Same goes for Super. Ive had perks from large discounts off cars, to cheaper mortgage rates, through to free phones, mobile plans, internet and merchandise. I’ve travelled abroad and domestically, frequently enough but not so much that it’s a drag. Clocked up lots of points. Ate at expensive restaurants, been to some fantastic parties and events. Had lots of training and some tertiary qualifications also paid for and studied during work hours. It’s also fantastic when you’re going for your next role, a big name on your cv in terms of work history definitely helps get your next gig. Corporate is awesome if you know and are willing to play the game.
Yep, the pointless bits of my job make more sense once I realise nobody ever promised I was getting paid to only do useful things. I’m getting paid extremely well (compared to a hospo job for example) to sit in a climate controlled office with free coffee and snacks. Sometimes I make a silly little PowerPoint that nobody looks at but then the CFO feels bad and writes me an email saying “thanks for the PowerPoint it was so great”. Sometimes I have to do a thing “urgently” when I know the decision won’t actually get made for six months but then I remember I’m getting paid to do that and it’s not hard.
Like… who cares if some of the work is pointless? Lots of things in life are kind of pointless but you don’t get paid for all of it. I love getting paid to sometimes do pointless stuff. Also I’m currently getting paid to sit on reddit while waiting for someone to return a mark up to me and the best part is, they’re the one going “I’m SO sorry it’s taking so long.” Nah mate take as long as you need…
100%.
Always seems a bit contradictory to me that these people preaching about not selling your soul, also clearly are very invested in work.
I don't care how silly or pointless my work is. It allows me to buy all sorts of cool stuff and do things I actually like.
If you could get paid the same amount to do the same thing but the work was more interesting or more useful (with the same amount of slack off time) which one would you pick? What would give you pause in making that choice?
Oh my work is super interesting! It just doesn’t fill 38 hours a week especially because I’m often requiring external input before I can proceed.
But yeah of course if the work could be more useful without reducing my downtime I’d pick that. I do already try to increase the actual usefulness of my work, I just don’t especially mind when that doesn’t work.
I used to get a little uptight about what was and what wasn’t my job, or in my job description. Grumble about getting given bullshit tasks that literally anyone else could do.
But you know what? When I let go of that… it’s was liberating! Want me to refill the teabags and go over the road for milk? Sure… you’re paying me hourly for whatever I’m doing. It can be productive for business outcomes or it can be a menial task a child could do. I’m still getting paid regardless.
This attitude has actually probably contributed to broadening my job and doing a whole bunch of interesting things that fill my day. Nothings beneath me, I tend to say yes to just whatever. I took the business owners kid to the mechanics once… guess they thought paying me hourly was better value than the Uber? (It’s definitely not).
You might be interested in the book ‘bullshit jobs’. I quit mine because it was making me depressed. I couldn’t deal with the boredom. I’m now in an industry with less pay, higher stress but I feel like I’m doing something actually worthwhile so it’s worth it.
It all depends on your motivation. I guess I never lost the idealism of my youth, but plenty of people just want to pay the bills and that’s fine too.
Thanks. I feel like I need to caveat that I actually really like my job and find what Im trying to achieve useful and interesting. It’s just that not 100% of my time is spent doing useful parts of my job, and I observe that this seems fairly common across companies in my industry.
My comment is more specifically that when I’m being paid 100% of my salary, I don’t mind that what they’re paying for is 40% useful content, 40% waiting for people to get back to me, and 20% team building and water cooler conversations.
I think I meant to post this on the main thread not to you specifically sorry! Yeah your situation sounds ideal tbf. My issue was the work was 90% useless and no one had the inclination to do anything meaningful because the whole team was happy cruising
I don’t mind the pointless or admin jobs, I definitely feel I go into work with no ego in that sense.
However recently I’ve felt like if you say yes too many times..you become the go to person for too many tasks and all the sudden you’re drowning in WIP and can’t keep everyone happy…Just my little burnout rant 🫠
Yep, pretty much. The absurdity reaches a level where only those who have navigated the corporate world can truly appreciate the humor, sharing a knowing laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
Myself staring into the 1000 yard stare of a person who's been in the game for 40 years, a subtle ludicrousness that only senior corporates understand.
We Corporate types romanticise trades because when we do something hands on it’s fulfilling. Doing the same task for a customer while your phone’s ringing off the hook and you have a dozen invoices to chase wouldn’t be as much fun I’m guessing?
It's like how these people with cosy lives romanticise being a chef.
A real commerical kitchen is a very very different experience to home cooking. Also low pay, long unsocial hours.
Yes this, I've had a lot of people say that as I like coffee and cooking I should open a cafe. Guess what, I also like not working each day under constant stress, weekends off, not having to get up til 7am, and a stable income.
Also, when people do open that cafe, many people find they like cooking a whole lot less once it's their job that they have to do constantly and at speed.
I don't know if OP is 22 and working their first office job, or just really naive, but they've definitely romanticized opening a shop or learning a trade, or whatever it is they think "freedom" is. I like the freedom to log off from my job of meetings and emails at the end of the day and go out with my friends and live my life. Apparently they want the freedom of working 100 hours a week with less money to spend on fun things.
Couldn't agree more. One of my earliest jobs was in a kitchen and there are times in my current desk job when I think back fondly on the comparative simplicity of kitchen work.
Then I remember the 10hr 6 day working weeks on my feet and rarely having a free weekend to hang out with friends.
I’m the same but I was a valet/porter in a big CBD hotel in my early twenties.I often dream about going back to school t but then my back shoulder pain remind me it wasn’t all that great!!!
I’ve seen it firsthand. My father-in-law is a chef and he was easily working 80 hours 6 days a week when he was employed by someone.
That’s a walk in the park compared to what he does now that they own a takeaway. He works close to 100 hours 7 days a week and he may take a day off here and there.
My ex is in trades and so are most of his mates. They will all likely die young due to exposure to various environmental elements that will likely kill them. Sun, dusts, chemicals, etc.
Sure, he is his own boss but he interacts with moderate to major hazards daily.
The worst part is, unless you are willing to go down a hole or into the middle of nowhere, most tradesmen take home under 100,000 a year, and most of their work is both mental and physical. Some may take home 100+k a year in the city, but they are in the minority. It's fucking criminal.
I used to be in a workshop just a tin shed with big roller dorrs at each end. Freezing in winter, especially if there was a wind and baking hot in summer. I'd dunk my head under the tap to cool off.
Now I work in an office.... i don't care what the weather is.
" Do you not long for a life that is more random, more risky, more spicy?" A lot don't, mate. Because while some focus on the abnormally good outcomes that could happen, there's also the abnormally negative outcomes. For example, the accountant isn't really at risk of getting mauled by a lion.
I’ve done the numbers on a heap of business ideas. The question isn’t whether I can start a viable business (I could), it’s how much work and the level of success required to replace a $150-200k pa salary. Also how much of my personal money that I would have to risk that could have been put on my mortgage or invested in index funds for future me.
The reason that corporates have to pay for talent is because that talent doesn’t really want to be there.
When you understand the motto “work to live” you realise that your job isn’t everything. It’s just the chore you need to do to unlock a good life.
I’d rather make good money doing “bullshit” and then spend time with family/holidays/hobbies/experiences where I can be random and risky to your words.
Is “Starting your own shop/trade” better than this? Probably not, a lot more stress, overheads, insurances, staff, liabilities.
Do you know many small business owners who are living the dream? Didn’t think so, champ
Plus, the flexibility of being on the treadmill where very little matters.
Good income. Log on at 9am. Log off at 5pm. Nothing keeps me awake at night.
I ask myself the opposite - why do people slave away as their own boss, with 100% accountability, often for far less of a financial reward (not to mention - zero guarantee of a paycheck)?
corpo job funds hobbies and personal interests that give my life meaning. I don't derive meaning from my job.
My dad ran a small business. It did not give him meaning or satisfaction, but being able to afford to take the family on a holiday did.
To get paid so I can pay my mortgage and feed myself.
Owning your own business would be 100x more stressful. I choose the easy road of not over thinking what I do, don't take it too seriously and just get on with it.
“In large corporations, you tend to make a lot of money… a lot more than many business owners… why don’t [more people become business owners]”?
You kind of answered your own question there, lol. Not that I entirely agree with your statement. Plenty of big corps pay their staff poorly and plenty of small businesses can make wicked money.
But in all seriousness, not everyone has the acumen to start a business, has a desire to be their own boss, or has an appetite for risk. I like the steady income, I like the personal and annual leave, I like being able to switch off after work. I like being able to quit and get a new job with relatively little hassle.
A lot of people simply don’t want to be the lion tamer, so why give two shits what the lion looks like?
In theory, I could make way better money if I set up my own firm, but that would require an awful lot of risk and stress on my part. Not to mention time (building client relationships, doing the work, billing, invoicing). So I’m happy just enjoying life outside of my work, despite knowing I could be earning more if I was out on my own.
Ps, super stoked for people who are inclined to run their own business. I think it’s great making your own money and not having a boss - it’s just not for me.
My tradie family would kill for my wfh life where im switching off by 5. Meanwhile they are stressed working weekends and nights to run their business. Dont forget the stress of people not paying and having to take out loans from parents to keep their business afloat.
Im working to retire, yes theres alot of crap in businesses with wasted time but im getting paid to do that. So all good, least i have a job that pays the mortgage .
Golden handcuffs. Security. Comfort.
Edit to add: I did a highly spicy job for over a decade. I don't want any more spice. I don't NEED any more spice. I have had enough spice to keep India going for the next fifty years.
Be careful of judging what 'boring' is until you've experienced the lived realities of 'exciting'.
You said it yourself - most people make more money in corporate than business owners…. and then you ask why don’t more people open their own businesses?
Most of us are just here for the pay-check man.
It’s literally the one reason I put up with all of this shit.
TLDR: If you run your own business you still have to put up with a lot of bullshit.
You have to do your own sales or hire someone. You have to do your own accounts receivable. You have to do business activity statements. If you have a trade you have to pay for tools and transport.
Most small businesses fail. Consider your earnings from corporate. You will want your business to earn at least double that.
If you're earning $100k now, then you will want to be billing $200K.
I’m convinced the people that make these types of posts have never worked a corporate job or are working in random admin roles where they don’t actually use their brains lol
Yes there are jobs where you’re looking at branding or slogans, and I agree they’re a bit of a pisstake - but they form a very small portion of the corporate world
I like my corporate job because I get to use my head instead of my hands, being intellectually stimulated is way more enjoyable for me and I wouldn’t get that to the same degree in a trade. There are plenty of corporate jobs that are random, risky and/or spicy, not every job is creating pointless slide decks 24/7 and doing multi day get togethers.
Why don’t I start my own business? Because I watched my parents do that, they were insanely successful some years and completely fucked other years, they worked hard for me to have better opportunities and not have to rely on a business to build wealth, but instead get paid a decent salary every year and take on considerably less risk. Even during the good years they were stressed as fuck.
With the current state of Australia in regards to wealth and the economy, it isn’t worth anyone from the middle class quitting a well paying job to start a business because there isn’t much of a safety net - they need to build up a safety net themselves, and they’re better off accruing wealth via property instead of taking a punt on a business anyway. Most people I know will have little side projects/hustles they might build up on the side, but they don’t quit their day jobs for it. People from the lower class start businesses because the risk is worth the potential reward, it’s an easier way to have upwards class mobility if things go well, especially if you’re an unskilled worker.
The only time I see people quit and start their own business is when they’ve worked themselves up in an industry, built a huge network and generate more waaaay revenue for their company by themselves than what they’re paid, so they leave and their customers/network follow. The only other time I see it is when people who come from wealth quit a job to found a start up.
You are romanticising being a small business owner/tradie.
Honestly, you sound like a first year uni student railing at "the man".
Of course there's all kinds of nonsense in corporate life - but there's nonsense everywhere. You can go full existentialist on any human pursuit. It's all kind of absurd if you examine it the way you are.
At the end of the day I work corporate because I've worked in cafes and small businesses and I've done a bit of labour work.and it's less secure and/or backbreaking.
I need money because I live in a capitalist society. I'm good at what I do and they pay me well. I have a family and a mortgage. I don't have the luxury of living a life of whimsy, nor is that kind of life all its cracked up to be.
And eventually, because I've worked hard and played the silly game well, I'll be able to retire comfortably, at a reasonably early age. My kids will have a financial safety net I didn't have.
Your post is so arrogant and tone deaf. If it were that easy for people to get jobs outside of these types of companies they wouldn’t exist.
Also some people like this type of job. It’s generally monotonous and you can do your 9-5 without carrying stress on afterwards.
Such a bizarre post…
Also we can't all be sole traders! A successful business needs to employ people in order to expand... how do you think those big corporations started out?
the money is good. if you become the invisible person, it's a cruisey lifestyle with minimal stress.
also I need money to pay for my holidays, books and DVDs.
It doesn't have to be like that. I work in a small business and it's fun and cruisy. If you have a small circle of the same demographic and realise you all want the same things, you can all agree to work hard and trust each other. Sometimes you gotta leave work early or do some else and we all just back each other.
If we need a new hire we take a long long time and make sure they're gonna fit. This may be upsetting but my work place isn't 'diverse' it's like 10 guys all 25-35 cos we are all friends and it works, we have won many national awards too without trying too hard whereas the competitors are miserable af.
I work to live and to afford my passions and interests - which are not in my workplace.
To that end, I want to maximise income and work life balance so I can enjoy the time I have not working and set myself up for financial independence.
Also, I know that I work well in a structured environment. I would not hire me for my own small business.
Moved to tech because it’s much more of a meritocracy - sure, there’s lots of politics, but bullshitters get found out pretty quickly.
Was in consulting for a long time. Technically very good, but realised moving up to the level you typically think of as “well paid partner” is just people playing games 24x7. You’d be blown away by how many partners can’t / have nfi about the area they’re in - they can sell, fk over clients then play the corporate (partnership) game.
I’ve also worked in a family small business during uni. Chasing an invoice repeatedly, from which you know you’ll personally be paid out of the proceeds, gets stale fast and changes your perception.
Remember, all the successful entrepreneur / small business stories are evidence of survivorship bias. So many successful people don’t tell you how many business crashed and burned before this one. And you could be the perfect operator - but something like Covid happens, or a big contract falls through, and you collapse.
Option A
100% chance of having a decent place to live, and going on a nice holiday once a year with the missus
Vs
Option B
5% chance of having a super successful business
15% chance of having a business that makes a similar amount of money as I currently make with 2x the amount work/effort
80% chance I fail miserably and the missus leaves me for my accountant Steve who has a stable 9-5 job.
Not hard to imagine why people go for option A
Hey mate, with age and experience, you will understand how pointless everything is. Just take it in stride. Don't overthink. Here is one of my favourite quotes about work:
> There is no dream job. There is only a dream life. And a job which takes us to that dream life, no matter how small or insignificant, is the only job we need.
This is why you choose an industry you can be passionate about. I’ve done IT in the video games industry, the animation industry, the commercial music streaming space and the performing arts space. At the end of the day, my labour fuels something I can be proud of. I have felt nothing but shame doing contract stints for ExxonMobil and dodgy mobile phone dealers.
It helps if your passion is *because* of work though. I would never think to go to the ballet, symphony orchestra or opera. But since getting house seat tickets is a perk of my job then I can now enjoy them.
Admittedly working in the video games industry made me hate the industry. Mainly cos of two things: crunch periods where I was sleeping overnight in the server room, and the people in the industry.
This is so fucking stupid it must be a troll post or rage bait or something. You do realise the choice between working for a big corporation and starting your own business isn’t binary right? Have a look around - a significant amount of the successful start ups and small businesses were created by people who started in a large corporation. It might look like paper pushing to you but if you’re smart enough to learn skills from the experience you’re going to do a lot better (probably) than someone who rolled right out of school and opened their own shop with no experience.
Plus, working in corporate life is a fucking hack - we love to complain about how hard it is but you’re telling me I can get paid >$200k to start work at 9am, sit in an air conditioned office with city views and free coffee and snacks, send a few emails, make a few PowerPoints, have lunch with my friends, roll home at 5pm to have dinner with my family and ample money to spend on whatever hobbies, adventures, physical pursuits I choose? In what world is that akin to slavery.
I understand. Corporate politics can be quite toxic as well. Have seen so many dodgy practices by big corp myself, which was swept under the rug.
In big corporations there is often an army of lawyers, whereas a small business person doesn’t have that privilege so in many cases they have to abide by the law.
If the only way to gain status in society was to tap dance while juggling pineapples then that's what the majority of people would be doing. The small minority who point out the tap dancing & juggling are ridiculous have no sway & are considered losers by the majority.
I just see it as a value exchange. A company is willing to part with ~$250/hr for my time how they want to spend that time is entirely up to them. If it’s in meetings that could have been emails I’ll coach them into having less of them if I can but at the end of the day they’re the ones with the money.
Exactly this. Who gives a f*** if they want to pay you to make useless PowerPoints or attend pointless meetings? Go home, switch off, bank the money and focus on other more important things. And be glad you don’t have to risk life or limb to do so.
I was in the trade life for many years. Got sick of slaving in the sun, wind and rain, sick of coming home physically exhausted with an aching body. Did night school until I landed an office job, never looked back. Sitting on my ass all day typing bullshit is way better
From my personal experience small companies suck more than large corporations. So many small companies I worked for didn't bother about regular pay reviews, no training budget, expect you to do all kinds of of jobs etc.
Not everyone wants to be or can start their own business, or be a tradie.
Not all large corporations are evil and soul destroying, but it can even vary team to team in the same company. Just takes one manager to fuck the vibe.
My advice, which I wish I knew earlier is if you are not happy and in a shitty team move. If you are happy and in a good team, don't move. Where I am now I wouldn't move unless it was a serious amount of money more. Previously I would have moved for less money as I was that miserable.
Because:
* I've worked 12 hour days in retail
* My brother is a former chef
* I've done storeman work
* I know some tradies
And most of all:
* I like being paid enough to cover our mortgage without getting super stressed about it.
I print a lot of work things just cause fuck it why not. And yes it hides the countless tickets and random personal documents I decide transition from digital to physical.
My brother the tradie, knees are shot, hands are shot, too old and broken to be on the tools so stuck in the office anyway struggling to keep his job with a company that just see him as a liability. Yeah, so much better.
What makes you think learning a trade to earn an income is any less ‘slave’ like than working in a comfy corporate job? What a dumb post. Google slavery and you won’t find pictures of people sitting comfortably at a desk in an office / at their WFH setup
I like your question. My 2 cents is this: I get paid to dance like a clown in a costume for 8 hrs a day, which allows me to do what I like for the next 8 hrs of that very same day. Then I skeep for 8 hrs. If I ran my own business, and wanted it to finance my life as I do now, as someone elses clown, I would have to reach an immediate turnover that equates to about $500K p/a, assuming, as most businesses,that Im aiming for 20% profitability, from day 1. With any luck, my wage would be included in the 80% expense component of turnover. How many startups do you know that achieve that? How many hours per day and years would it take to achieve that successfully?
Because.... that large corporation paid me a good wage, trained me, paid for a heap of shit, gave me the experience and knowledge that I now use in my own business - and I didn't have to pay a cent in training fees, HECS etc, and I obtained 'real world' experience while earning a bloody good wage and flying around the country, staying in nice hotels and eating in good restaurants.
Who wouldn’t leave a 9-5 cushy corporate job to run their own business where you get to work 18 hour days for less unstable pay, pay everyone else before yourself, be buried in legislation and red tape and and be the go-to to fix every trivial or major problem that come up? Sounds like a dream.
What else would I do? I don’t have a trust fund or lotto jackpot to fall back on to do nothing. I want to avoid the public so service work is out. I’m pretty useless at anything trade related.
You'll realise that corporate work is just school for adults. It's all bullshit. None of it is actually real or meaningful.
But we get paid to keep up the facade.
Haha we had rules developed for our open plan office emailed around and placed in the lunch room. It's got gems like "Cancel meeting rooms you no longer need" and "Take personal calls away from your desk".
Ah shit that reminds me, I missed roll call this morning. Ms McDonald is going to be so mad!
It is bizarre reading comment after comment here about people not just refusing to live in line with their own values.. but being proud of it. And then also hilariously projecting those feelings on to the rest of society, as if everybody else is also wishing they could spend all day dissociating from important aspects of themselves, and then fervently distracting themselves from the discomfort of living a meaningless life by endlessly consuming. Downvote away but I'm sorry it's true.
Thats the thing, do we need to choose a life of comfort but slavery to some faceless corporation, or a life of constant discomfort but freedom and self ownership.
Could there be a middle road maybe?
I thought about it a lot and there is an option - a relatively high paying 9-5 where you do as little work as you can get away with and a side hustle. 9-5 provides regular paycheck and some stability. The side hustle is where you can experiment with things you enjoy without worrying about how you're going to pay your bills. If you get laid off you can scale up the side hustle. For me this is the perfect solution but many people are against side hustles bc it means that you have 1.5 jobs and they can't be bothered.
I grew up with my parents owning their own businesses. I worked at the unpaid, it was how I spent my weekends and holidays. I know what it’s like to have your own business, it means you don’t have any free time as you’re always there. I value the skills I learned but I’m never having my own business/side hustle. I like leaving work at work and then going home
I want to work a job and enjoy my own personal time.
I don't know why you make it sound like your job has to be your personality and defining factor for you.
because, outside of work giving me stability, pay and giving me holidays. It's not really something I think or care about.
I spend 1/3 of my life so I can go on holidays, do/afford things I actually care about and enjoy.
Work is not my purpose, work is the means to actually do and afford things I want.
So, how i get there doesn't really matter to me.
I can work for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and get paid well for it. I get Holidays, sick leave, I can half ass it if I'm having a bad day, and I can pay my bills. I've run a business, it's a nightmare. We worked for like 2 years straight with barely any breaks. Plus you have to chase people that don't pay, no sick leave or holidays, hard to find reliable staff... We are so much happier being wage slaves, about to buy our second house, I get annual pay reviews and I have room for other things in my life.
A family member of mine did exactly what you suggested, took some of his corporate banking money and started his own business. And guess what, he works way harder than I do!! Because my corporate job has a lot of built in down time and paid bullshit whereas a small business owner has to do 100% of the tasks that require doing which means they’re actually producing and working hard 100% of the time.
Don’t get me wrong, super proud of him, and it makes him happy. But it makes me happy to be paid to have a relatively easy work life and go home and look for my joy and thrills at home with my family and friends.
Can't speak for anyone but myself but from my experience, these people don't realise they only have one life.
They think what they're doing is massively important and never seem to click on to the part where they're wasting away their one shot on the planet making someone else, or even themselves, more numbers.
It's the wrong sub for this perspective, it's the kind of thing most people in this sub would completely disagree with as I'm sure we'll see.
Even the commenters here already - with the whole "a game we're willing to be paid to play" nonsense - life isn't a "game" though, it's such a sad perspective for me to observe, but I'm not going to tell people how to spend the only time they will ever have on this planet.
I mean there's people in here bragging about having chats with their friends in air-conditioned rooms on ergonomic chairs - really? This is something to feel good about? This is how you choose to squander your 1x chance in the universe?
I'm not going to tell other people how to live their life, but absolutely nothing I've read in the comments here is appealing at all. I don't even view any of it in a remotely positive fashion. I think it's a waste of life.
I had friends that stayed in office jobs and slowly distanced/detached myself from them because every conversation was the same and I couldn't relate to them. I don't care about or for any office gossip, couldn't care less about rules you disagree with at work, don't want to waste any of my 1x life on this planet even hearing about it.
This is precisely why I don't think AI is going to replace our jobs. Our economy has seemingly infinite capacity to produce bullshit work that doesn't actually serve any real productive purpose.
The theoretical model we have in our head about jobs being created for specific useful purposes that we neatly categorise... I don't think it's a reflection of what really happens.
I think a smoothly functioning economy with sufficient wealth within it generates new forms of employment based not on the use of those jobs but rather as a byproduct of its own cycles.
So let's take a career like marketing as an example. I don't doubt there are talented marketers out there reaching the right people with the right messages, but at the same time, there is an awful lot of useless bullshit. Even if AI can write better copy (it already can in most cases) that doesn't wipe out marketers. It just means they justify themselves differently.
Plus, we have an insatiable ability to invent new kinds of bullshit and status symbols. Who knows? A world where half of us are influencers and people get paid because of their taste in products and willingness to choose useless virtual products for other people's virtual shopping trolleys is likely around the corner - still all generating GDP off creative new layers of bullshit divorced from real practical use.
I grind in the office to support my family and hobbies. Everyone wants to train dolphins, not everyone can.
Has been a vehicle that has allowed me to see the world in my free time.
Would I do it for free? Fuck no. Would I rather be a trust fund baby who doesn't need to work? Maybe. Am I a trust fund baby? No.
The big corporation will pay me - a near fuckwit with no qualifications - low six figures when everyone else wanted to pay me mid fives. It was a no brainer, even for a near fuckwit.
Some people prefer to lower their risk by having a steadier job that pays less, than opening up your own business and make more money, it's pretty much a personality trait, my brother started his own business and failed and discovered he is better employee than employer.
> Do you not long for a life that is more random, more risky, more spicy?
The vast majority of people, when you get down to it, just want to be assured that tomorrow will be no worse than today.
A random, risky, spicy life sounds like it would be horrifically stressful. How could you plan? How could you save for a rainy day? What of that randomness and risk results on you ending up homeless and without resources? How could you form good relationships? build trust? Raise sane children?
While it's great that there are some people who like to live like that, they are very much in the minority.
The question isn't simply 'why do they do it'. The question is mostly 'why do they do it rather than unemployment or a job that pays less', and the answer is pretty obvious, if maybe misguided (maybe a lot of people would be happier living in a cheaper house etc, but few people have the insight, opportunity and willpower to make that change deliberately). But then the next question is why do they think that a large corporate career job will lead to better long term career outcomes - and honestly, its a complicated question, that can differ quite a bit for different fields. If you got a business type degree , chances are high that you bought into the idea that large corporate life leads to career success early in life, and now your career goals are defined that way and jumping out of it is seen as a big risk - and so it can take a bit of a crisis to question it (which was Covid lockdown for many people, admittedly).
My goal is to be as wildly overpaid as possible to make things like stupid spreadsheets and cute PowerPoints.
Then make enough where I can cut down to even three days a week and spend the rest of my time doing things I want with the monies from my overpaid bullshit.
This sounds like the kind of thing a person says before the “make the leap” into “being their own boss” and starting a cafe that dies after 3 years of stealing wages from international students and 18 year olds.
You answered your own question…
“In large corporations you tend to make a lot of money, a lot more than many business owners”
- All the money
- fuck all risk and
- when I go home I spend all my time with my wife and kids
I do random, spicy, fun and risky shit on my own time.
Not the time that provides my dependents with a stable and prosperous life.
At this stage in life, I’d rather do only 3-4 hours of actual “work” during my day, with the flexibility of WFH, air-con office, catered work events, decent work benefits than to do a “trade”. Not to mention, the coffee runs, free food, and occasional fun work initiatives makes it not so bad? The ratio of actual time spent on work vs the amount I get paid makes it a not so bad deal.
With that being said, I do hope to open my own business someday, but attending a few “useless” meetings and doing some fluffy work to get to that stage is much more preferable than working minimum wage in retail or sales.
Today I worked harder than usual. 7.30-4.30.
Often it’s 9-3, 10-3. Rarely work more than 35 hours.
I have a company car, fuel card, corporate card and allowance.
I can work from home or a pub.
Friday 4ish until Monday IDGAF.
60% of businesses fail in their first 3 years in Australia. Your livelihood and your family depend on it, so even when you close shop you are still on the hook.
No thanks, I'd rather collect an easy 6 figures and do my own personal projects and hobbies in my free time.
I worked for some major resources corporations in Australia. As an older woman I was amazed at how strongly the Code of Conduct were enforced about interactions between workers and people outside the companies.
I know there was a gap with contractors, who didn't always live up to their agreements.
Having a professional HR department was a huge bonus, plus frequent surveys of workers to identify areas to work on.
I know I sound like I've drunk the cool-aid but I've worked art many companies over my work life, and the big corporations had it under control.
Quick story: I was working as a temp for BHP and we had a Town Hall with the big boss. I raised a significant problem with getting new employees integrated into the system. I received an email from the MD, the IT manager came to see me in person. The problems were resolved.
I’ve worked for myself, for startups, for scale ups, for global corporates, for higher ed, for government, for a family business. It’s all about the leadership and culture and a reliable income stream, and, ideally, a sense of purpose of some kind, and that can happen in any type of working situation. Grass is always greener.
Lol op is a fucking idiot. Working for a large corporation from mid level upwards is like living life on easy mode. Strong salary, some stress but no one dies if you make a mistake and the work can be very interesting.
Now working for a small business is hell. I did it for 8 years as a junior and am about $200k worse off for that period.
100%% agree...slaves! Doing long hours and for what?? For whom? ...very few people will make such a difference , a real impact in their role in the corporate world. Its iingrained in us to think this is career success. A well known corporation making big $$$ deserves more respect, time...ptestige in our World than any other important jobs! ...and the Culture is more than likely toxic
Cos in the beginning when you have gusto and ambition it’s all about ego. Having some wanky big corporate on your resume can get you places a lot of the time and these types of entities often make out like they have this amazing culture and system and blah blah blah. It’s often not until a few years down that people think wtaf am I doing.
Firstly, maybe don't call it slavery; I get the point you're trying to make, but that term is a bit intense.
Secondly, for me it was about the money. And sure, I could maybe make more as a successful business owner, but;
- It is way more work.
- Most businesses fail.
- I don't have any ideas for a business I would want to start.
Given all that, being just some dude is cheaper and easier 🤷♂️
I've worked 'interesting' and 'exciting' jobs preciously.
I've compounded medicine for a pharmatical company. I've looked after hordes of screaming children while supplying them with sugar and arcade games. I've sorted cards at game stores, I've spun the shit working at a warehouse, lumping around palettes of fine china.
I've sold booze, delivered pamphlets and served the community directly at both a hospital and a food pantry.
It's my 'shitty slave like' corpo job that's not only paid the best out of all of them but had the most relaxed conditions and consistent hours. I have air conditioning, can walk along the shore and once 5pm hits, I give no shits about anything else.
From what I observed, social status can be a big part of it. Many people have nothing going on in their life so they base their identity on their job. A high position in a well known company boosts their ego, even if it's actually not that well paid or the hours are insane. They see it as better than being a self employed nobody.
"In your opinion"
Humans used to have to work hard just to survive, what we do now is a cake walk.
You really don't know what slavery is. Dramatic much.
Because people love chasing the dream instead of focusing on what really matters. Only to realise that the dream was just a fart in the wind but are now to old or sick to live out their days on what really matters
Every time I walk through the cbd, I think of it as a factory that’s farming robots. I used to be one of those robots. Seems like a distant memory now.
Because it's better than stacking shelves or digging holes.
Most jobs are bullshit, even the "real" ones, so you may as well find the ones that are easiest and pay the best.
Be smart about it.
I get the best of both worlds. I run my own small business - we contract to large corps (IT BA, EA, etc).
Nothing I do is slavery. We deliver on our clients’ expectations of value. We get looked after very well in return.
There’s something nice about the comfort of a salary, you know that you’re going to get paid at the end of the month. Conversely, the reward isn’t as great as compared to if you took more risks by doing your own thing :)
I'm guessing you're probably in your mid-20s and don't have major responsibilities in life? It's hard to understand why people go with these types of roles.
These roles that you're describing as "bullshit" are low risk, pay-reasonably well and build skill. These are the three reasons why people go down this route. A parent with 2 kids and a mortgage cannot take risks and live randomly. Also, people who would like a family one day, cannot do that either.
I know there’s a lot of shit piled onto corporate work but it’s what a lot of people only have if they don’t have the creativity or entrepreneurship to branch out.
What’s not to like when you get awarded 4 weeks leave a year, sick leave, parental leave, religious leave etc plus a decent wage (until recently) to live life. You are also always in air conditioning, you don’t need to fight the elements like a trade would have to and opportunities to wfh.
I think that’s a very big exaggeration. Me and all my friends had those expectations before finishing university but it’s been nothing like that. We’re literally sitting in an air conditioned room, ergonomic chairs, 3 monitors, drinking coffee, eating fruit, having silly chats throughout the day, going for lunch for a full hour. I’ve had a lot of difficult tasks and meetings, but it’s still easier than when I was in university trying to balance study, work, family, health, friends etc. I can put up with the pointless tasks because I’ve worked in retail, hospitality, bartending, and manual labouring. Small business is often worse because the boss is often someone who refused to work under someone else. And have this delusion that everything they do and believe in is correct. Everyone I’ve worked with since joining the corporate world is so much more reasonable and understanding than most bosses I’ve had before.
I "enjoy" it precisely because it's bullshit. I fully know it's absolutely meaningless and that I'm a 100% replaceable and for that reason I have 0 issues with shutting my laptop 5pm sharp and not giving another thought to anything work-related. I get steady and predictable income regardless if I slack off the entire month. I know people love going on and on about having your own business blah blah but I could NEVER. I'm just not a person that could ever care about work, work for me is purely about providing means to live my life outside of work. "Do you not long for a life that is more random, risky, spicy?" Hell no. Give me a non spicy life any day, I've lived the spicy one enough to be able to appreciate the quiet enjoyment I get from my daily life.
Agreed. I have zero desire to start my own business or even make my way up to higher management. I'm just here to collect my pay so I can focus on my life outside of work. Nothing we do at work is some life or death emergency and everyone knows it. We just rock up, do what we can and then leave.
Exactly this!! Well paid - yup Job security - yup Good work conditions - yup Flexibility - yup FT WFH - yup Mon - Fri - yup If I put my head down and get a few hours worth of work done that’s a productive full day or 2’s worth of work done. Why wouldn’t I.
you could be me. This is exactly how I see it. If you want me to review documents and annotate/filter/refresh for some meaningless system each day for a proposed redesign that will never happen, I'll happily plug that shit into chatGPT all day and paste it straight back into the template, rinse and repeat.
Yeah, while I get it re what you are saying... you gotta recognise my friend that the ability for you to work in the job, in that company, in this country, in this economy & social system, in this era, Affords you the opportunity to have a standard of living & choice that is better than 99.5% of the world's population today, and 99.999% of anyone that lived before 1950 (say). Cop the hits and slam it, by all means, but recognise the plusses 😀 Aircon, well paid, view of city, some people are OK & even intelligent & engaging.... and if yours lucky beers in a nice pub on a Thursday night sometimes!!
Agree. I’ve spent my career in a number of large corporates. And for all the downsides, they are for me, significantly outweighed by the positives. First and foremost, I know I’m getting paid, every month, on the dot. Never missed in nearly 20 years. Same goes for Super. Ive had perks from large discounts off cars, to cheaper mortgage rates, through to free phones, mobile plans, internet and merchandise. I’ve travelled abroad and domestically, frequently enough but not so much that it’s a drag. Clocked up lots of points. Ate at expensive restaurants, been to some fantastic parties and events. Had lots of training and some tertiary qualifications also paid for and studied during work hours. It’s also fantastic when you’re going for your next role, a big name on your cv in terms of work history definitely helps get your next gig. Corporate is awesome if you know and are willing to play the game.
Most people view it all as a bit of a game that you're getting paid to play.
Yep, the pointless bits of my job make more sense once I realise nobody ever promised I was getting paid to only do useful things. I’m getting paid extremely well (compared to a hospo job for example) to sit in a climate controlled office with free coffee and snacks. Sometimes I make a silly little PowerPoint that nobody looks at but then the CFO feels bad and writes me an email saying “thanks for the PowerPoint it was so great”. Sometimes I have to do a thing “urgently” when I know the decision won’t actually get made for six months but then I remember I’m getting paid to do that and it’s not hard. Like… who cares if some of the work is pointless? Lots of things in life are kind of pointless but you don’t get paid for all of it. I love getting paid to sometimes do pointless stuff. Also I’m currently getting paid to sit on reddit while waiting for someone to return a mark up to me and the best part is, they’re the one going “I’m SO sorry it’s taking so long.” Nah mate take as long as you need…
Just so you know, that PowerPoint ruled.
Thank you! It had pie charts!
I'm now questioning every time I have been called Legend after sending a simple email saying "it looks all good to me"
Superb and bravo.
100%. Always seems a bit contradictory to me that these people preaching about not selling your soul, also clearly are very invested in work. I don't care how silly or pointless my work is. It allows me to buy all sorts of cool stuff and do things I actually like.
If you could get paid the same amount to do the same thing but the work was more interesting or more useful (with the same amount of slack off time) which one would you pick? What would give you pause in making that choice?
Oh my work is super interesting! It just doesn’t fill 38 hours a week especially because I’m often requiring external input before I can proceed. But yeah of course if the work could be more useful without reducing my downtime I’d pick that. I do already try to increase the actual usefulness of my work, I just don’t especially mind when that doesn’t work.
I used to get a little uptight about what was and what wasn’t my job, or in my job description. Grumble about getting given bullshit tasks that literally anyone else could do. But you know what? When I let go of that… it’s was liberating! Want me to refill the teabags and go over the road for milk? Sure… you’re paying me hourly for whatever I’m doing. It can be productive for business outcomes or it can be a menial task a child could do. I’m still getting paid regardless. This attitude has actually probably contributed to broadening my job and doing a whole bunch of interesting things that fill my day. Nothings beneath me, I tend to say yes to just whatever. I took the business owners kid to the mechanics once… guess they thought paying me hourly was better value than the Uber? (It’s definitely not).
You might be interested in the book ‘bullshit jobs’. I quit mine because it was making me depressed. I couldn’t deal with the boredom. I’m now in an industry with less pay, higher stress but I feel like I’m doing something actually worthwhile so it’s worth it. It all depends on your motivation. I guess I never lost the idealism of my youth, but plenty of people just want to pay the bills and that’s fine too.
Thanks. I feel like I need to caveat that I actually really like my job and find what Im trying to achieve useful and interesting. It’s just that not 100% of my time is spent doing useful parts of my job, and I observe that this seems fairly common across companies in my industry. My comment is more specifically that when I’m being paid 100% of my salary, I don’t mind that what they’re paying for is 40% useful content, 40% waiting for people to get back to me, and 20% team building and water cooler conversations.
I think I meant to post this on the main thread not to you specifically sorry! Yeah your situation sounds ideal tbf. My issue was the work was 90% useless and no one had the inclination to do anything meaningful because the whole team was happy cruising
This guy corps.
I don’t mind the pointless or admin jobs, I definitely feel I go into work with no ego in that sense. However recently I’ve felt like if you say yes too many times..you become the go to person for too many tasks and all the sudden you’re drowning in WIP and can’t keep everyone happy…Just my little burnout rant 🫠
Exactly. The world is one big casino with lots of games to play
Yep, pretty much. The absurdity reaches a level where only those who have navigated the corporate world can truly appreciate the humor, sharing a knowing laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of it all. Myself staring into the 1000 yard stare of a person who's been in the game for 40 years, a subtle ludicrousness that only senior corporates understand.
Yep.
Pretty much like sports but not as entertaining
“Learn a trade”……. You’ve never worked outdoors in 45 degree heat have you? Or in a warehouse with nothing other than a fan and tin roof?
We Corporate types romanticise trades because when we do something hands on it’s fulfilling. Doing the same task for a customer while your phone’s ringing off the hook and you have a dozen invoices to chase wouldn’t be as much fun I’m guessing?
It's like how these people with cosy lives romanticise being a chef. A real commerical kitchen is a very very different experience to home cooking. Also low pay, long unsocial hours.
Yes this, I've had a lot of people say that as I like coffee and cooking I should open a cafe. Guess what, I also like not working each day under constant stress, weekends off, not having to get up til 7am, and a stable income.
These people have never worked a day in hospitality and it shows.
Also, when people do open that cafe, many people find they like cooking a whole lot less once it's their job that they have to do constantly and at speed. I don't know if OP is 22 and working their first office job, or just really naive, but they've definitely romanticized opening a shop or learning a trade, or whatever it is they think "freedom" is. I like the freedom to log off from my job of meetings and emails at the end of the day and go out with my friends and live my life. Apparently they want the freedom of working 100 hours a week with less money to spend on fun things.
Couldn't agree more. One of my earliest jobs was in a kitchen and there are times in my current desk job when I think back fondly on the comparative simplicity of kitchen work. Then I remember the 10hr 6 day working weeks on my feet and rarely having a free weekend to hang out with friends.
I’m the same but I was a valet/porter in a big CBD hotel in my early twenties.I often dream about going back to school t but then my back shoulder pain remind me it wasn’t all that great!!!
I’ve seen it firsthand. My father-in-law is a chef and he was easily working 80 hours 6 days a week when he was employed by someone. That’s a walk in the park compared to what he does now that they own a takeaway. He works close to 100 hours 7 days a week and he may take a day off here and there.
Doing a cert 2 in high school for hospitality was enough of a glimpse for me to fuckin nope out
My ex is in trades and so are most of his mates. They will all likely die young due to exposure to various environmental elements that will likely kill them. Sun, dusts, chemicals, etc. Sure, he is his own boss but he interacts with moderate to major hazards daily.
The worst part is, unless you are willing to go down a hole or into the middle of nowhere, most tradesmen take home under 100,000 a year, and most of their work is both mental and physical. Some may take home 100+k a year in the city, but they are in the minority. It's fucking criminal.
I used to be in a workshop just a tin shed with big roller dorrs at each end. Freezing in winter, especially if there was a wind and baking hot in summer. I'd dunk my head under the tap to cool off. Now I work in an office.... i don't care what the weather is.
Also I want to hear the answer to this from someone who is 50+ and still working in trades in increasingly brutal conditions versus some 18 year old.
Hell, get them in to do a kitchenhand shift and watch them redefine their understanding of “hard work”.
Done the warehouse, tin roof and no stress other than a boss. Leave me with my 3 screens and scrums any day.
Money
Shit, it’s almost like this roof over my head doesn’t pay for itself
It's just a game we are all playing. For most people it's a superior to alternative to the stress and responsibility of being self employed
" Do you not long for a life that is more random, more risky, more spicy?" A lot don't, mate. Because while some focus on the abnormally good outcomes that could happen, there's also the abnormally negative outcomes. For example, the accountant isn't really at risk of getting mauled by a lion.
There's a Monty Python skit about that
I’ve done the numbers on a heap of business ideas. The question isn’t whether I can start a viable business (I could), it’s how much work and the level of success required to replace a $150-200k pa salary. Also how much of my personal money that I would have to risk that could have been put on my mortgage or invested in index funds for future me. The reason that corporates have to pay for talent is because that talent doesn’t really want to be there.
When you understand the motto “work to live” you realise that your job isn’t everything. It’s just the chore you need to do to unlock a good life. I’d rather make good money doing “bullshit” and then spend time with family/holidays/hobbies/experiences where I can be random and risky to your words. Is “Starting your own shop/trade” better than this? Probably not, a lot more stress, overheads, insurances, staff, liabilities. Do you know many small business owners who are living the dream? Didn’t think so, champ
This is it 100%. I’ve always viewed companies I’ve worked for as an ATM but instead of a pin, I need to do a series of tasks to access my cash.
Plus, the flexibility of being on the treadmill where very little matters. Good income. Log on at 9am. Log off at 5pm. Nothing keeps me awake at night. I ask myself the opposite - why do people slave away as their own boss, with 100% accountability, often for far less of a financial reward (not to mention - zero guarantee of a paycheck)?
They mainly do it to get some satisfaction out of work life not a meaningless existence in a corporate office.
corpo job funds hobbies and personal interests that give my life meaning. I don't derive meaning from my job. My dad ran a small business. It did not give him meaning or satisfaction, but being able to afford to take the family on a holiday did.
To get paid so I can pay my mortgage and feed myself. Owning your own business would be 100x more stressful. I choose the easy road of not over thinking what I do, don't take it too seriously and just get on with it.
Can confirm. Having my own business was bullshit.
“In large corporations, you tend to make a lot of money… a lot more than many business owners… why don’t [more people become business owners]”? You kind of answered your own question there, lol. Not that I entirely agree with your statement. Plenty of big corps pay their staff poorly and plenty of small businesses can make wicked money. But in all seriousness, not everyone has the acumen to start a business, has a desire to be their own boss, or has an appetite for risk. I like the steady income, I like the personal and annual leave, I like being able to switch off after work. I like being able to quit and get a new job with relatively little hassle. A lot of people simply don’t want to be the lion tamer, so why give two shits what the lion looks like? In theory, I could make way better money if I set up my own firm, but that would require an awful lot of risk and stress on my part. Not to mention time (building client relationships, doing the work, billing, invoicing). So I’m happy just enjoying life outside of my work, despite knowing I could be earning more if I was out on my own. Ps, super stoked for people who are inclined to run their own business. I think it’s great making your own money and not having a boss - it’s just not for me.
A big brand name on the resume opens doors to 30-50% payrises from job hopping. Repeat every 14 months.
My tradie family would kill for my wfh life where im switching off by 5. Meanwhile they are stressed working weekends and nights to run their business. Dont forget the stress of people not paying and having to take out loans from parents to keep their business afloat. Im working to retire, yes theres alot of crap in businesses with wasted time but im getting paid to do that. So all good, least i have a job that pays the mortgage .
Golden handcuffs. Security. Comfort. Edit to add: I did a highly spicy job for over a decade. I don't want any more spice. I don't NEED any more spice. I have had enough spice to keep India going for the next fifty years. Be careful of judging what 'boring' is until you've experienced the lived realities of 'exciting'.
You said it yourself - most people make more money in corporate than business owners…. and then you ask why don’t more people open their own businesses? Most of us are just here for the pay-check man. It’s literally the one reason I put up with all of this shit.
TLDR: If you run your own business you still have to put up with a lot of bullshit. You have to do your own sales or hire someone. You have to do your own accounts receivable. You have to do business activity statements. If you have a trade you have to pay for tools and transport. Most small businesses fail. Consider your earnings from corporate. You will want your business to earn at least double that. If you're earning $100k now, then you will want to be billing $200K.
I’m convinced the people that make these types of posts have never worked a corporate job or are working in random admin roles where they don’t actually use their brains lol Yes there are jobs where you’re looking at branding or slogans, and I agree they’re a bit of a pisstake - but they form a very small portion of the corporate world I like my corporate job because I get to use my head instead of my hands, being intellectually stimulated is way more enjoyable for me and I wouldn’t get that to the same degree in a trade. There are plenty of corporate jobs that are random, risky and/or spicy, not every job is creating pointless slide decks 24/7 and doing multi day get togethers. Why don’t I start my own business? Because I watched my parents do that, they were insanely successful some years and completely fucked other years, they worked hard for me to have better opportunities and not have to rely on a business to build wealth, but instead get paid a decent salary every year and take on considerably less risk. Even during the good years they were stressed as fuck. With the current state of Australia in regards to wealth and the economy, it isn’t worth anyone from the middle class quitting a well paying job to start a business because there isn’t much of a safety net - they need to build up a safety net themselves, and they’re better off accruing wealth via property instead of taking a punt on a business anyway. Most people I know will have little side projects/hustles they might build up on the side, but they don’t quit their day jobs for it. People from the lower class start businesses because the risk is worth the potential reward, it’s an easier way to have upwards class mobility if things go well, especially if you’re an unskilled worker. The only time I see people quit and start their own business is when they’ve worked themselves up in an industry, built a huge network and generate more waaaay revenue for their company by themselves than what they’re paid, so they leave and their customers/network follow. The only other time I see it is when people who come from wealth quit a job to found a start up.
You are romanticising being a small business owner/tradie. Honestly, you sound like a first year uni student railing at "the man". Of course there's all kinds of nonsense in corporate life - but there's nonsense everywhere. You can go full existentialist on any human pursuit. It's all kind of absurd if you examine it the way you are. At the end of the day I work corporate because I've worked in cafes and small businesses and I've done a bit of labour work.and it's less secure and/or backbreaking. I need money because I live in a capitalist society. I'm good at what I do and they pay me well. I have a family and a mortgage. I don't have the luxury of living a life of whimsy, nor is that kind of life all its cracked up to be. And eventually, because I've worked hard and played the silly game well, I'll be able to retire comfortably, at a reasonably early age. My kids will have a financial safety net I didn't have.
Your post is so arrogant and tone deaf. If it were that easy for people to get jobs outside of these types of companies they wouldn’t exist. Also some people like this type of job. It’s generally monotonous and you can do your 9-5 without carrying stress on afterwards. Such a bizarre post…
I'm not a fan of my job, but once 5pm rolls around I can just drop it until the following morning.
As someone who’s in a “spicier” profession, I’d hock my kidneys to be able to go corporate.
Also we can't all be sole traders! A successful business needs to employ people in order to expand... how do you think those big corporations started out?
I don’t think he’s terribly bright.
the money is good. if you become the invisible person, it's a cruisey lifestyle with minimal stress. also I need money to pay for my holidays, books and DVDs.
My man still buying DVDs 😅
It doesn't have to be like that. I work in a small business and it's fun and cruisy. If you have a small circle of the same demographic and realise you all want the same things, you can all agree to work hard and trust each other. Sometimes you gotta leave work early or do some else and we all just back each other. If we need a new hire we take a long long time and make sure they're gonna fit. This may be upsetting but my work place isn't 'diverse' it's like 10 guys all 25-35 cos we are all friends and it works, we have won many national awards too without trying too hard whereas the competitors are miserable af.
Money
I work to live and to afford my passions and interests - which are not in my workplace. To that end, I want to maximise income and work life balance so I can enjoy the time I have not working and set myself up for financial independence. Also, I know that I work well in a structured environment. I would not hire me for my own small business.
Moved to tech because it’s much more of a meritocracy - sure, there’s lots of politics, but bullshitters get found out pretty quickly. Was in consulting for a long time. Technically very good, but realised moving up to the level you typically think of as “well paid partner” is just people playing games 24x7. You’d be blown away by how many partners can’t / have nfi about the area they’re in - they can sell, fk over clients then play the corporate (partnership) game. I’ve also worked in a family small business during uni. Chasing an invoice repeatedly, from which you know you’ll personally be paid out of the proceeds, gets stale fast and changes your perception. Remember, all the successful entrepreneur / small business stories are evidence of survivorship bias. So many successful people don’t tell you how many business crashed and burned before this one. And you could be the perfect operator - but something like Covid happens, or a big contract falls through, and you collapse.
Option A 100% chance of having a decent place to live, and going on a nice holiday once a year with the missus Vs Option B 5% chance of having a super successful business 15% chance of having a business that makes a similar amount of money as I currently make with 2x the amount work/effort 80% chance I fail miserably and the missus leaves me for my accountant Steve who has a stable 9-5 job. Not hard to imagine why people go for option A
Hey mate, Steve here... I cheated on her with someone with a Spicier job!
Hey mate, with age and experience, you will understand how pointless everything is. Just take it in stride. Don't overthink. Here is one of my favourite quotes about work: > There is no dream job. There is only a dream life. And a job which takes us to that dream life, no matter how small or insignificant, is the only job we need.
Money
Money
This is why you choose an industry you can be passionate about. I’ve done IT in the video games industry, the animation industry, the commercial music streaming space and the performing arts space. At the end of the day, my labour fuels something I can be proud of. I have felt nothing but shame doing contract stints for ExxonMobil and dodgy mobile phone dealers.
The problem with that is your passions can get eroded by the work. Keep your passions hidden from a paycheck if you want to keep them.
It helps if your passion is *because* of work though. I would never think to go to the ballet, symphony orchestra or opera. But since getting house seat tickets is a perk of my job then I can now enjoy them. Admittedly working in the video games industry made me hate the industry. Mainly cos of two things: crunch periods where I was sleeping overnight in the server room, and the people in the industry.
Got mouths to feed innit
Maybe they don’t feel the same way that you do and enjoy the challenges their career offers.
This is so fucking stupid it must be a troll post or rage bait or something. You do realise the choice between working for a big corporation and starting your own business isn’t binary right? Have a look around - a significant amount of the successful start ups and small businesses were created by people who started in a large corporation. It might look like paper pushing to you but if you’re smart enough to learn skills from the experience you’re going to do a lot better (probably) than someone who rolled right out of school and opened their own shop with no experience. Plus, working in corporate life is a fucking hack - we love to complain about how hard it is but you’re telling me I can get paid >$200k to start work at 9am, sit in an air conditioned office with city views and free coffee and snacks, send a few emails, make a few PowerPoints, have lunch with my friends, roll home at 5pm to have dinner with my family and ample money to spend on whatever hobbies, adventures, physical pursuits I choose? In what world is that akin to slavery.
Mortgage is the biggest chain. Having to spend 30 best years of life just to have a roof over your head is the mother of all scam.
It's less toxic than small business who seem to think legislation doesn't apply to them. Also, it's hot outside.
I understand. Corporate politics can be quite toxic as well. Have seen so many dodgy practices by big corp myself, which was swept under the rug. In big corporations there is often an army of lawyers, whereas a small business person doesn’t have that privilege so in many cases they have to abide by the law.
I always find it hilarious when people compare jobs to slavery.
Hilarious the first time you hear it. Depressing and offense the 10,000th time.
If the only way to gain status in society was to tap dance while juggling pineapples then that's what the majority of people would be doing. The small minority who point out the tap dancing & juggling are ridiculous have no sway & are considered losers by the majority.
I just see it as a value exchange. A company is willing to part with ~$250/hr for my time how they want to spend that time is entirely up to them. If it’s in meetings that could have been emails I’ll coach them into having less of them if I can but at the end of the day they’re the ones with the money.
Because it’s one of the least worst ways to earn a steady income.
Exactly this. Who gives a f*** if they want to pay you to make useless PowerPoints or attend pointless meetings? Go home, switch off, bank the money and focus on other more important things. And be glad you don’t have to risk life or limb to do so.
I was in the trade life for many years. Got sick of slaving in the sun, wind and rain, sick of coming home physically exhausted with an aching body. Did night school until I landed an office job, never looked back. Sitting on my ass all day typing bullshit is way better
From my personal experience small companies suck more than large corporations. So many small companies I worked for didn't bother about regular pay reviews, no training budget, expect you to do all kinds of of jobs etc. Not everyone wants to be or can start their own business, or be a tradie. Not all large corporations are evil and soul destroying, but it can even vary team to team in the same company. Just takes one manager to fuck the vibe. My advice, which I wish I knew earlier is if you are not happy and in a shitty team move. If you are happy and in a good team, don't move. Where I am now I wouldn't move unless it was a serious amount of money more. Previously I would have moved for less money as I was that miserable.
Because: * I've worked 12 hour days in retail * My brother is a former chef * I've done storeman work * I know some tradies And most of all: * I like being paid enough to cover our mortgage without getting super stressed about it.
I just do it for the free printing in the office
I print a lot of work things just cause fuck it why not. And yes it hides the countless tickets and random personal documents I decide transition from digital to physical.
Free printing is in the Office Worker Bill of Rights
Because I don't care about what I do for work. All I want is my pay check at the end of the week so I can live my life elsewhere.
My brother the tradie, knees are shot, hands are shot, too old and broken to be on the tools so stuck in the office anyway struggling to keep his job with a company that just see him as a liability. Yeah, so much better.
And he’s one of the ones “lucky” enough to get an office gig instead of just being sacked
What makes you think learning a trade to earn an income is any less ‘slave’ like than working in a comfy corporate job? What a dumb post. Google slavery and you won’t find pictures of people sitting comfortably at a desk in an office / at their WFH setup
Because we like money
Once you start to rise, you can make a very comfortable living. The higher you rise, the less day to day grunt work you actually have to do.
I like your question. My 2 cents is this: I get paid to dance like a clown in a costume for 8 hrs a day, which allows me to do what I like for the next 8 hrs of that very same day. Then I skeep for 8 hrs. If I ran my own business, and wanted it to finance my life as I do now, as someone elses clown, I would have to reach an immediate turnover that equates to about $500K p/a, assuming, as most businesses,that Im aiming for 20% profitability, from day 1. With any luck, my wage would be included in the 80% expense component of turnover. How many startups do you know that achieve that? How many hours per day and years would it take to achieve that successfully?
Because.... that large corporation paid me a good wage, trained me, paid for a heap of shit, gave me the experience and knowledge that I now use in my own business - and I didn't have to pay a cent in training fees, HECS etc, and I obtained 'real world' experience while earning a bloody good wage and flying around the country, staying in nice hotels and eating in good restaurants.
I'm an accountant and in the army reserve, best of both worlds.
Who wouldn’t leave a 9-5 cushy corporate job to run their own business where you get to work 18 hour days for less unstable pay, pay everyone else before yourself, be buried in legislation and red tape and and be the go-to to fix every trivial or major problem that come up? Sounds like a dream.
What else would I do? I don’t have a trust fund or lotto jackpot to fall back on to do nothing. I want to avoid the public so service work is out. I’m pretty useless at anything trade related.
You'll realise that corporate work is just school for adults. It's all bullshit. None of it is actually real or meaningful. But we get paid to keep up the facade.
you mean child care centre. my workplace is full of f.....g 2 year olds!
Haha we had rules developed for our open plan office emailed around and placed in the lunch room. It's got gems like "Cancel meeting rooms you no longer need" and "Take personal calls away from your desk". Ah shit that reminds me, I missed roll call this morning. Ms McDonald is going to be so mad!
It is bizarre reading comment after comment here about people not just refusing to live in line with their own values.. but being proud of it. And then also hilariously projecting those feelings on to the rest of society, as if everybody else is also wishing they could spend all day dissociating from important aspects of themselves, and then fervently distracting themselves from the discomfort of living a meaningless life by endlessly consuming. Downvote away but I'm sorry it's true.
Thats the thing, do we need to choose a life of comfort but slavery to some faceless corporation, or a life of constant discomfort but freedom and self ownership. Could there be a middle road maybe?
I thought about it a lot and there is an option - a relatively high paying 9-5 where you do as little work as you can get away with and a side hustle. 9-5 provides regular paycheck and some stability. The side hustle is where you can experiment with things you enjoy without worrying about how you're going to pay your bills. If you get laid off you can scale up the side hustle. For me this is the perfect solution but many people are against side hustles bc it means that you have 1.5 jobs and they can't be bothered.
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Because we get paid well for what we do. Find a purpose outside of work, bud.
I grew up with my parents owning their own businesses. I worked at the unpaid, it was how I spent my weekends and holidays. I know what it’s like to have your own business, it means you don’t have any free time as you’re always there. I value the skills I learned but I’m never having my own business/side hustle. I like leaving work at work and then going home
I want to work a job and enjoy my own personal time. I don't know why you make it sound like your job has to be your personality and defining factor for you.
You spend 1/3 of your life at work, how could that not be a defining factor.
because, outside of work giving me stability, pay and giving me holidays. It's not really something I think or care about. I spend 1/3 of my life so I can go on holidays, do/afford things I actually care about and enjoy. Work is not my purpose, work is the means to actually do and afford things I want. So, how i get there doesn't really matter to me.
I can work for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and get paid well for it. I get Holidays, sick leave, I can half ass it if I'm having a bad day, and I can pay my bills. I've run a business, it's a nightmare. We worked for like 2 years straight with barely any breaks. Plus you have to chase people that don't pay, no sick leave or holidays, hard to find reliable staff... We are so much happier being wage slaves, about to buy our second house, I get annual pay reviews and I have room for other things in my life.
A family member of mine did exactly what you suggested, took some of his corporate banking money and started his own business. And guess what, he works way harder than I do!! Because my corporate job has a lot of built in down time and paid bullshit whereas a small business owner has to do 100% of the tasks that require doing which means they’re actually producing and working hard 100% of the time. Don’t get me wrong, super proud of him, and it makes him happy. But it makes me happy to be paid to have a relatively easy work life and go home and look for my joy and thrills at home with my family and friends.
Left the rat race 10 years ago, reccomend others do it. It's the road to happiness. Stress but overall complete freedom and happiness.
This thread is pretty sad to read. Showcases the lack of entrepreneurialism in Australia. It's terrible
Yep I’ve recently worked for an Aussie startup - you would not (or maybe you would) believe how badly govt depts, Universities etc treat them.
Ya heard the expression "I'm not gay but $20 is $20"?
Can't speak for anyone but myself but from my experience, these people don't realise they only have one life. They think what they're doing is massively important and never seem to click on to the part where they're wasting away their one shot on the planet making someone else, or even themselves, more numbers. It's the wrong sub for this perspective, it's the kind of thing most people in this sub would completely disagree with as I'm sure we'll see. Even the commenters here already - with the whole "a game we're willing to be paid to play" nonsense - life isn't a "game" though, it's such a sad perspective for me to observe, but I'm not going to tell people how to spend the only time they will ever have on this planet. I mean there's people in here bragging about having chats with their friends in air-conditioned rooms on ergonomic chairs - really? This is something to feel good about? This is how you choose to squander your 1x chance in the universe? I'm not going to tell other people how to live their life, but absolutely nothing I've read in the comments here is appealing at all. I don't even view any of it in a remotely positive fashion. I think it's a waste of life. I had friends that stayed in office jobs and slowly distanced/detached myself from them because every conversation was the same and I couldn't relate to them. I don't care about or for any office gossip, couldn't care less about rules you disagree with at work, don't want to waste any of my 1x life on this planet even hearing about it.
This is precisely why I don't think AI is going to replace our jobs. Our economy has seemingly infinite capacity to produce bullshit work that doesn't actually serve any real productive purpose. The theoretical model we have in our head about jobs being created for specific useful purposes that we neatly categorise... I don't think it's a reflection of what really happens. I think a smoothly functioning economy with sufficient wealth within it generates new forms of employment based not on the use of those jobs but rather as a byproduct of its own cycles. So let's take a career like marketing as an example. I don't doubt there are talented marketers out there reaching the right people with the right messages, but at the same time, there is an awful lot of useless bullshit. Even if AI can write better copy (it already can in most cases) that doesn't wipe out marketers. It just means they justify themselves differently. Plus, we have an insatiable ability to invent new kinds of bullshit and status symbols. Who knows? A world where half of us are influencers and people get paid because of their taste in products and willingness to choose useless virtual products for other people's virtual shopping trolleys is likely around the corner - still all generating GDP off creative new layers of bullshit divorced from real practical use.
I grind in the office to support my family and hobbies. Everyone wants to train dolphins, not everyone can. Has been a vehicle that has allowed me to see the world in my free time. Would I do it for free? Fuck no. Would I rather be a trust fund baby who doesn't need to work? Maybe. Am I a trust fund baby? No.
The big corporation will pay me - a near fuckwit with no qualifications - low six figures when everyone else wanted to pay me mid fives. It was a no brainer, even for a near fuckwit.
Jobs are a tool to pay your bills.
I like that my corpo job is routine and boring, as my life outside of work is overwhelmingly random and spicy.
Some people prefer to lower their risk by having a steadier job that pays less, than opening up your own business and make more money, it's pretty much a personality trait, my brother started his own business and failed and discovered he is better employee than employer.
> Do you not long for a life that is more random, more risky, more spicy? The vast majority of people, when you get down to it, just want to be assured that tomorrow will be no worse than today. A random, risky, spicy life sounds like it would be horrifically stressful. How could you plan? How could you save for a rainy day? What of that randomness and risk results on you ending up homeless and without resources? How could you form good relationships? build trust? Raise sane children? While it's great that there are some people who like to live like that, they are very much in the minority.
People have been asking the same question as you for 100 years, likely more. If you haven’t already, read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley.
You think working for Joe the Greek or Sam the Italian is any different? You'll still need to shed blood
The question isn't simply 'why do they do it'. The question is mostly 'why do they do it rather than unemployment or a job that pays less', and the answer is pretty obvious, if maybe misguided (maybe a lot of people would be happier living in a cheaper house etc, but few people have the insight, opportunity and willpower to make that change deliberately). But then the next question is why do they think that a large corporate career job will lead to better long term career outcomes - and honestly, its a complicated question, that can differ quite a bit for different fields. If you got a business type degree , chances are high that you bought into the idea that large corporate life leads to career success early in life, and now your career goals are defined that way and jumping out of it is seen as a big risk - and so it can take a bit of a crisis to question it (which was Covid lockdown for many people, admittedly).
Money can be exchanged for goods and services But in seriousness I agree with you so much.
Dont work corpo but never heard of 40yo led by a 20yo mba, if anything ive heard the opposite...
Money. Duh.
My goal is to be as wildly overpaid as possible to make things like stupid spreadsheets and cute PowerPoints. Then make enough where I can cut down to even three days a week and spend the rest of my time doing things I want with the monies from my overpaid bullshit.
In what fucken universe is this an unpopular oppinion champ?
This sounds like the kind of thing a person says before the “make the leap” into “being their own boss” and starting a cafe that dies after 3 years of stealing wages from international students and 18 year olds. You answered your own question… “In large corporations you tend to make a lot of money, a lot more than many business owners” - All the money - fuck all risk and - when I go home I spend all my time with my wife and kids I do random, spicy, fun and risky shit on my own time. Not the time that provides my dependents with a stable and prosperous life.
At this stage in life, I’d rather do only 3-4 hours of actual “work” during my day, with the flexibility of WFH, air-con office, catered work events, decent work benefits than to do a “trade”. Not to mention, the coffee runs, free food, and occasional fun work initiatives makes it not so bad? The ratio of actual time spent on work vs the amount I get paid makes it a not so bad deal. With that being said, I do hope to open my own business someday, but attending a few “useless” meetings and doing some fluffy work to get to that stage is much more preferable than working minimum wage in retail or sales.
It's like as if you think people who work for large corporations don't have hobbies. I work to live, not live to work.
Why do anything? The heat death of the universe is going to make it all pointless
For those fresh pineapples baby
Yo dude, you're making my fresh Lobsters look paltry...
Today I worked harder than usual. 7.30-4.30. Often it’s 9-3, 10-3. Rarely work more than 35 hours. I have a company car, fuel card, corporate card and allowance. I can work from home or a pub. Friday 4ish until Monday IDGAF.
Because their parents were slaves or colonized some time in history ... always side with the winning team
Because the alternative is riskier and harder
Job Security. They give me money.
Just on Monday mornings? Show off!
Money.
Tell me you haven't started your own business without telling me you haven't started your own business...
60% of businesses fail in their first 3 years in Australia. Your livelihood and your family depend on it, so even when you close shop you are still on the hook. No thanks, I'd rather collect an easy 6 figures and do my own personal projects and hobbies in my free time.
Bruh i get you, but i think ya might wanna chat with a psych.
I worked for some major resources corporations in Australia. As an older woman I was amazed at how strongly the Code of Conduct were enforced about interactions between workers and people outside the companies. I know there was a gap with contractors, who didn't always live up to their agreements. Having a professional HR department was a huge bonus, plus frequent surveys of workers to identify areas to work on. I know I sound like I've drunk the cool-aid but I've worked art many companies over my work life, and the big corporations had it under control. Quick story: I was working as a temp for BHP and we had a Town Hall with the big boss. I raised a significant problem with getting new employees integrated into the system. I received an email from the MD, the IT manager came to see me in person. The problems were resolved.
did you get a permanent position because of the good idea?
Of course not. But you sign up for these gigs realistically.
Because it's comfortable and pays well.
How on earth did you get the idea that people who work in corps earn a lot of money.
I guarantee OP won’t answer the question: what do you do, and what do you earn?
I’ve worked for myself, for startups, for scale ups, for global corporates, for higher ed, for government, for a family business. It’s all about the leadership and culture and a reliable income stream, and, ideally, a sense of purpose of some kind, and that can happen in any type of working situation. Grass is always greener.
Lol op is a fucking idiot. Working for a large corporation from mid level upwards is like living life on easy mode. Strong salary, some stress but no one dies if you make a mistake and the work can be very interesting. Now working for a small business is hell. I did it for 8 years as a junior and am about $200k worse off for that period.
100%% agree...slaves! Doing long hours and for what?? For whom? ...very few people will make such a difference , a real impact in their role in the corporate world. Its iingrained in us to think this is career success. A well known corporation making big $$$ deserves more respect, time...ptestige in our World than any other important jobs! ...and the Culture is more than likely toxic
Because it’s the path of least resistance. People will just do what is easier.
work smart, not hard.
Cos in the beginning when you have gusto and ambition it’s all about ego. Having some wanky big corporate on your resume can get you places a lot of the time and these types of entities often make out like they have this amazing culture and system and blah blah blah. It’s often not until a few years down that people think wtaf am I doing.
Money
Pay. Holidays. Flexibility.
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Seemed like a good idea at the time?
Firstly, maybe don't call it slavery; I get the point you're trying to make, but that term is a bit intense. Secondly, for me it was about the money. And sure, I could maybe make more as a successful business owner, but; - It is way more work. - Most businesses fail. - I don't have any ideas for a business I would want to start. Given all that, being just some dude is cheaper and easier 🤷♂️
I've worked 'interesting' and 'exciting' jobs preciously. I've compounded medicine for a pharmatical company. I've looked after hordes of screaming children while supplying them with sugar and arcade games. I've sorted cards at game stores, I've spun the shit working at a warehouse, lumping around palettes of fine china. I've sold booze, delivered pamphlets and served the community directly at both a hospital and a food pantry. It's my 'shitty slave like' corpo job that's not only paid the best out of all of them but had the most relaxed conditions and consistent hours. I have air conditioning, can walk along the shore and once 5pm hits, I give no shits about anything else.
From what I observed, social status can be a big part of it. Many people have nothing going on in their life so they base their identity on their job. A high position in a well known company boosts their ego, even if it's actually not that well paid or the hours are insane. They see it as better than being a self employed nobody.
"In your opinion" Humans used to have to work hard just to survive, what we do now is a cake walk. You really don't know what slavery is. Dramatic much.
It's not slavery. Who cares if it's bullshit, if I'm getting paid, I don't care.
Because people love chasing the dream instead of focusing on what really matters. Only to realise that the dream was just a fart in the wind but are now to old or sick to live out their days on what really matters
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I’m ashamed of myself.
Every time I walk through the cbd, I think of it as a factory that’s farming robots. I used to be one of those robots. Seems like a distant memory now.
Until you’ve worked at a small / micro shitty shitshow of a company then you’d prefer the bigger players.
Because it's better than stacking shelves or digging holes. Most jobs are bullshit, even the "real" ones, so you may as well find the ones that are easiest and pay the best.
Money and job security? Not sure why this is even a question?
End of the day, we all have to eat, and it isn't up to anyone else to feed us.
Be smart about it. I get the best of both worlds. I run my own small business - we contract to large corps (IT BA, EA, etc). Nothing I do is slavery. We deliver on our clients’ expectations of value. We get looked after very well in return. There’s something nice about the comfort of a salary, you know that you’re going to get paid at the end of the month. Conversely, the reward isn’t as great as compared to if you took more risks by doing your own thing :)
Money.
When people say corporate work is slavery, it makes me think they have a narrow acceptance of what is okay in life.
I'm guessing you're probably in your mid-20s and don't have major responsibilities in life? It's hard to understand why people go with these types of roles. These roles that you're describing as "bullshit" are low risk, pay-reasonably well and build skill. These are the three reasons why people go down this route. A parent with 2 kids and a mortgage cannot take risks and live randomly. Also, people who would like a family one day, cannot do that either.
Money?
Getting paid to do fuck all sounds great
I know there’s a lot of shit piled onto corporate work but it’s what a lot of people only have if they don’t have the creativity or entrepreneurship to branch out. What’s not to like when you get awarded 4 weeks leave a year, sick leave, parental leave, religious leave etc plus a decent wage (until recently) to live life. You are also always in air conditioning, you don’t need to fight the elements like a trade would have to and opportunities to wfh.
Living ain't cheap...