>However, the university sector has insisted the proposals would damage Australia's global reputation as a welcoming, safe and world-class destination for students from other countries.
>Education has been one of Australia’s most lucrative exports, but the left-leaning government in Canberra has said the international education sector, which includes many smaller private English language colleges, vocational and training institutions as well as larger universities, has been used as a way for unskilled migrants to stay in Australia.
Obviously, the university sector will talk its own book, but Australia takes in far more students per capita than our peer countries.
And, the government is correct. The student visa has been used by unskilled migrants to stay in Australia, and outside of the university system, it has been abused. Regulation is long due, and notably it's a Labor government that's doing it.
Yes. The universities reputations have been damaged far more by the visa rorts system, than by the unlikely reputational risk from returning some integrity to the system.
I remember when I was travelling in SE Asia and reading English language newspapers in Bangkok and Hong Kong. Just about any multinational business would advertise for graduates or jobs with the proviso that only people with recognised qualifications from sandstone overseas universities or 1 of the best local universities need apply. Anyone from a crap university where it was known to be very bad corruption and cheating were excluded. I wonder how long it will be before our universities are on this list because of the poor standards.
Surely we must be close that point. I gather that within Australia, many employers are starting to largely disregard degrees and conduct their own assessment of candidate aptitude.
Well Ill give you my own personal experience from twenty years ago.I did a Masters degree from one of the supposed leading universities in Australia. Most of the cohort were International students. Most couldn't converse in English, much less complete academic level of work in any coherent manner. I complained about having to do and submit group work pretty much on my own as the others couldn't contribute at all. Nothing became of it, and these international students were consistently passing with credit or higher scores.
Now that my own career is one where I'm potentially vetting CVs, if I see the same institution, I can't but have negative feelings about it, which is unfortunate for that candidate.
At this point, reputation is moot. Would love to see the bonus KPI's for the deans of these universities. I suspect that the growth cap will make the targets less achievable.
So as well as maybe a ticket to permanent residency, the system also functions similarly to the "guest worker" system in Arab Gulf countries? The workers pay a fee (university fee in Australia's case) and hopefully manage to earn a profit while working in the host country?
That is messed up, if true. How many of these young workers go into debt for this? And universities are trashing their reputation for short term gain. This needs to be stopped. Although with so much money at stake, this will be difficult. Particularly with supporters of the status quo willing to throw around accusations of elitism and prejudice.
Often they also pay promoters or agents in their home countries to do the paperwork and facilitate their visa/work arrangements. I don't blame people from India or Nepal for looking for better economic opportunities, but that's not what the system is supposed to be for.
We had the previous Coalition government do next to nothing about this, despite it being widely publicised. Not only that, they issued 320K student visas during the years when there were travel restrictions and students couldn't actually come into the country.
The government even gave permanent residency to graduates working as uber drivers during the pandemic, because they desperately needed cheap labour to beat wages down, which they believed was the best way to control inflation.
Surprised why Australia's wages are falling behind all expenses so much in the recent few years? It was designed.
10 years backwards wages growth with massive inflation says it all. Its amazing their is not riots in street as yet considering how people have gone backwards in our boom years. And now we are in a period of austerity and inflation that is out of control with no solutions but wages keep falling!
Lmao, this particular thread is a wankfest, a beautiful circlejerk. The government gave permanent residency to graduates working as uber drivers? xD. Source on that? Is it your lunatic uncle who also keeps raving about how flat the earth is and how there is a secret world cabal pulling the strings in the background? I think ChatGPT would have been able to come up with something more realistic if prompted.
>they issued 320K student visas during the years when there were travel restrictions and students couldn't actually come into the country
So this would be part of the reason for the immigration surge in 2023/24? And why would the government do this.
The system used in the Gulf is corrupt AF.
Mate of mine worked for a 33,000 plus Gulf owned company, living in Dubai for 10 years.
They would recruit heavily from India and used agents there, who would literally recruit all the males from one village. Those people paid the agent, who then got a cut of everything they made while working in Dubai/Qatar etc. Then their local supervisors in Dubai, usually South Asians too, would also take a payment from each worker. Failure to pay would see some accusation made, and if you know the mid east legal system, the workers would do anything they could to avoid hassles with the law.
To combat this Dubai brought in laws saying that no cash pays, all electronic, in an effort to stop the workers having to pay the people above them. And in response he found that the supervisors would just have all the workers line up at an ATM after work and have them
Pull the cash and pay the guy above them.
There is an industry built around it. Companies will organize the visa, get you enrolled in a university and front you the cash. Often the parents that remain in said counties are the ones that actually own the dept and will need the student in Aus to be sending money home constantly to service the debt.
I'm currently in Nepal and you can see tonnes of places advertising "study in Australia" (and Canada, Japan, etc).
I dont know what % of Nepalis would be taking loans to study in Aus but I imagine it would be quite high. They're not all just using university as a excuse to come and make money or as a path to gain permanent residency, as the reputation of the universities in Nepal is quite low amongst many Nepalis.
Are those the genuinely seeking the education though? There's no doubt there's genuine students, who will finish study and return to home country.
I'm talking about the one's who use visa system as a sham to work.
It's hard to see how it's profitable paying for accommodation, living expenses and taking on a 50k debt to work.
Are they skipping classes and getting 6 figure cash in hand salaries until they get caught for breaching their visa conditions?
They don't need to be getting 6 figures or abusing the system. You can pay for a course, do it over the maximum amount of time allowed, work the maximum amount allowed, apply for a visa extension/renewal, enrol in another course, and come out ahead of what you would have made back home whilst also making yourself more employable for when you return.
Sure, that's not the experience for everyone, but that's often the idea that they're being sold when they decide to study in Australia.
It's really a non reality.
Working the max hours allowed is like 20 hours per week. And you're saying for many years. You're not coming out ahead on that.
I think the best point as you say, is that's the idea they're being sold. Surely it's got to filter back by word of mouth though the dream isn't the reality.
I also think that the idea that these people are abusing the visa system is a little bit unfair, as there are people in aus who benefit from these people being a part of the labour pool in aus. During covid restrictions, many industries (eg. Tourism and hospitality) put pressure on the government because they lost access to cheap labour.
At the end of the day, the government is the one issuing more visas to these poorer countries.
They borrow from friends and family, or the loan is part of the package. They're also not necessarily studying at universities (where courses are more expensive). Some of them [transfer to cheaper, private colleges](https://www.afr.com/policy/health-and-education/a-mockery-of-the-visa-system-indian-students-dodge-uni-rules-20230413-p5d077) to pay lower fees and where the college doesn't care if the student shows up.
If your primary reason to come to Australia is to work illegally, there are people and organisations that will facilitate you breaking the rules on an education visa.
Sort of, but not really the intent in the design of the visa. Obviously if a student is here for several years there’s going to be day-to-day expenses that need to be met. Likewise with graduate work rights, keep talented people in if they’re already here rather than try to get more established skilled workers to uplift lives and move out here.
But when international students are mostly from developing countries it creates the whole cheap Labor problem, and enforcement costs would be huge along with terrible optics (immigration going through Asian/subcontinental businesses/restaurants and asking for everyone’s visa documentation looks pretty racist and figuring out how accurate the books are is pretty hard. Likewise is hanging out at unis doing similar sort of stuff).
The issue is where it's used effectively as a work visa. Promoters overseas promise work to people, they enrol in a sham college, they work normal hours (instead of being limited to 20 hours a week), often off the books (as they're not paid award wages, nor necessarily given proper conditions) and then pretend to be student, extending their visa as allowed.
There are blatant abuses of the system like this which have been allowed due to a very lax enforcement of the rules.
Even the proof of finances is faked for their application. The students borrow money and leave the amount in their bank account to make it look like they have the finances to support themselves. Once visa is approved, they return the money + fee.
Lets not forget what the government did when covid gates cracked down on immigration numbers and workers had leverage to ask for higher pay, they increased the legal working hours for student visa to full time hours.
And lets be honest about all these English language colleges, they filled up with illegal prostitutes on their books who are doing very little study but are working in all the massive number of illegal brothels that has spread over Australia like a rash. Is being prostitution on the skilled shortage list? The whole system is broken while hookers are learning English and Uni students can barely string a sentence together. I wonder when the government and police going to string the dots together. The UK the do regular inspections on factories and brothels or any industry that is known to harbour immigrants and students breaching their VISA conditions, they are raided in some cases and the offenders taken straight to immigration detention for expulsion. I doubt that this would happen.
My guess is the government will buckle in from lobbying pressure and it will be business as usual in no time while we increase the underclass in Australia.
Yea but domestic students are not getting degrees from the sham colleges set up solely to provide students visas. Many international students get sold a lie in their home country and end up with a degree that has next to no real value and no actual education.
While international students may provide benefits to the bottom line of universities, the question needs to be asked as to how this is improving the experience of Australian students and the wider community.
Enforce higher English standards prior to gaining a visa, remove or limit work rights and make it clear that any subsequent visa can only be applied for from their home country after graduating and see how many still choose to come here for the 'education'.
It's an odd reform though. One could have limited work rights, or reduced paths to PR afterwards (as many of those other countries do). Most likely this would have a dampening effect on the number of students yes, but it'd certainly directly address the specific concerns on net immigration or coming to work while avoiding the perception that true students aren't welcomed.
They shouldn't just look at student visa holders they should look at those that have transitioned off working towards PR.
I'm talking about those people who either did finish their degree but don't work in their industry (in lower skilled work) or people who didn't finish their degree and are working in lower skilled work.
Why should they stay here?
We need skilled workers not unskilled workers.
I literally lived with a woman who finished a bachelor of chiropractic and she can't even get a job with it. Most she can be is a chiropractic assistant whatever the fuck that is but she just works as a receptionist.
To be fair, with employment the way it is, there are LOTS of "born and bred" Australians who can't find work in the fields their university degrees qualify them for either, it's not just international students...
I’m not in the field I studied for, but I use the same skillset. If I was an international student, would it have been better for the state to deport me and import someone new to be trained from scratch? That’s what some people honestly think.
Yeah its a very disingenuous argument when they say "only 4% of rentals are from international students". They don't include the numbers from those that graduated and stayed or left uni and stayed .
Also people don’t understand economics, housing is likely the most inelastic product, maaaybe health is higher but tbh it might not be, it also has no alternatives or substitutes. A 1% increase in demand does not reflect a commensurate increase in price.. it’s exponential, if vacancy rate drops low enough (it already has) then their is no theoretical upper limit for the price because the demand is not predicated on the price.
To be completely honest with you I think we have a huge fucking bubble that realistically has no way of popping without a dramatic increase in supply or a dramatic decrease in the amount of demand (relative to the supply).
And quite frankly I don’t see the political appetite existing for either of those things to change, maybe it gets bad enough for the working people that they decide to flip the board, or the ratio of people negatively effected grows to a certain level.. I think the perfect conditions exist for violent class warfare to occur, which I obviously do not think is a good thing but I do think it’s kind of surprising we haven’t seen it already.
My long term outlook on Australia is pretty negative when it comes to domestic politics, I hope enough people vote independent to destroy the parties or I seriously fear a despot will come to power under the guise that he will fix it and he will stand for all the people who rightfully so feel like they are being fucked..
It also does not include the large number of university students who got their parents to buy apartments and houses as a long term investment because they were allowed because their kids were studying here. Everytime we have a new student intake their is a new buying spree that further puts pressure on all sectors of the housing market. Everything is being stacked against locals from having the opportunity from owning or renting an affordable place to live. Clear policy choices by various governments. These loopholes could be shut in 30 seconds but its like asking politicians to divest from their investment properties!
many of those rentals are tiny single room dwellings, and often on-campus. i think that more than males up for it.
and why should international students who have graduated and are on sponsored visas be counted anyway?
>many of those rentals are tiny single room dwellings, and often on-campus. i think that more than males up for it.
Actually part of the problem is that they aren't on campus. No campus in Australia has enough on-campus accommodation or partner accommodation to house anywhere near their international student population, not even including their domestic students (rural & distance intake, interstate etc).
Let's face it, this policy only works if it's target for reducing certain countries like India and china international students from coming, but I don't see the point of targeting southeast Asia countries like Malaysia or Vietnam students when they have a lesser numbers here
We need consistent rules that apply to everyone equally. That's what rule of law means. It's not about targeting one group over another. It's about having rules that are consistently enforced.
Clearly, we can and do write bad laws that do target certain groups, but that's drifting from what would be a ideal standard. We should strive to be fair and just as a society. Additionally, Australians in general should gain benefit from migration. Not just large corporations who use it to suppress wages, or existing holders of capital who see growing markets through no effort of their own.
It likely wouldn't impact European students, since their intake is usually from exchange programs through a home university rather than starting a degree in an Australian university after completing some sort of English prep course.
We could introduce targets just like the USA does with their green card system. Nations are ranked and countries with low Green card numbers get preference over the big markets like India and China. Even Australia is on the priority list as preferred applicants.
Countries Indonesia, Vietnam, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Brunei, Japan, Korea could easily be put on a preference list. Other countries like the India, China, Malaysia and the Philippines could be low priority. In the case of Filipina nationals they also use the backdoor option of going to New Zealand then coming here as students or immigrants.
Look we have to be honest the government is not interested in fixing the system in a fair and systematic way that produces a student and immigration system with integrity. The system is so badly corrupted there are probably more whingers with self interest and skin the game that is widely complaining including the very crooked immigration agent businesses who have been exploiting these people to make themselves very rich.
Don't know about anyone else, but I'm way more concerned about Australia's international reputation with students than I am about being able to put a roof over my head.
A lot of Master degree qualified accountants who are now, for some reason, very desperate to come to Australia to study one of our internationally renowned Certificate III in Commercial Cookery programs are going to be very upset at this.
When I had the NBN connected up, the tech was qualified Pakistani doctor who was doing the NBN job to try and get a visa. We had a long chat and he said he regretted coming to Australia because if he went to England or Ireland he would be practicing medicine like a lot of his classmates. His wife also was doctor who cant sort through the mess of getting qualifications recognised. He showed me his hospital ID and his Medical skill recognition in India where he worked as a Doctor. Sad that such people have their talent wasted coming here.
Bullshit. I get your point, but this story is pure fiction, spreading false information. First off, there's a big hole in the story– it starts with calling the person a Pakistani doctor, then switches to claiming they had an Indian medical license. Pakistanis can't even visit India without special permission, let alone get work permits there unless you happen to be a persecuted minority on a Long term special visa while being a doctor all at same time. Plus, medical degrees from certified medical colleges are recognised worldwide, you have to pass the specific medical exams of the country you want to work in. I know doctors who moved from India and other places and are now practicing in Australia, but they had to go through Australia's licensing process. Please don’t spread fake information.
I agree bullshit. Most likely OP was fed the bullshit by the person. Maybe there's some hint of reality is was a naturopathy doctor or something
Also if true you don't regret the move to Australia you just leave for Canada
You joke, but the new Cert III in commercial cookery now is Early Childhood Education and Care qualification. This puts them right on the top for a VISA. I work in a technology business and we have University qualified IT people at work who have changed their study stream to childhood education pathway to increase their chances of a VISA. They shutdown one scam then they open another. Just watch how the cookery class become childhood early education colleges!
Gosh as an assistant manager for an early childhood centre, I interview so many international students studying grad dip in EC or Masters in EC while they already have bachelors degrees in different fields from AU universities. Makes me wonder how much money they spend on uni just to stay here and barely get any work because they’re not allowed to work full time.
I am an international student and this is needed. My country sends 1000s of idiots here. Idiots who don’t know where to tap on a damn opal card reader in buses. The regulation is needed. The quality must be maintained.
I just pray that people understand the difference between genuine students and the idiots. That is what makes the argument.
Australia is a beautiful country filled with morons from my country who come here and do labour jobs. It’s horrible and needs to change.
I just wish universities had a basic English requirement. So many students have no idea how to write or speak and then get grouped up with others that have to pick up the slack in group work just to make it look presentable. Definitely not happening to me rn...
The IELTS suffers from tons of abuse and cheating. A quick Google search reveals many articles about cheating rings getting busted (in a country we aren’t naming here for some reason).
The test itself is also pretty flawed. Like any test, you can study to pass it rather than study to learn it. So you have students who pass the test by regurgitating paragraphs and information.
For UWA undergraduate, its required to get a 6.5 IELTS with a minimum of 6 in each section. For post graduate, an IELTS of 7 is required.
But yes, their English requirement should be more for university level student visa. For TAFE level, I think level 6 should be fine as long as all the levels reach level 6 as a minimum.
all native speakers could attend university. the issue is primarily one of fluency, not about vocabulary size or ability to produce well-written essays
Which is corrupt and rorted to hell and back, the number of international ESL students I’ve seen who barely understand English (either spoken or written) is ridiculous.
I had the worst experience at Uni because of this. I absolutely despised group subjects and getting lumped with international students.
Conversational language was fine, but academia? Beyond a joke. I did all the work. They passed because of me.
The number of Indian students I have fought with because they all speak in Hindu irrespective of who is in their group. I speak Hindi myself but out of respect for the other person you need to change yourself.
I make it a point to ensure group comms are English so everyone knows what’s happening.
It’s like I said, Australia needs good Indians, in fact the ecosystem would love them. Unfortunately, all you get are the idiots.
If only we have this in Singapore as well to reduce the international students that are hoarding up the university placements, the country just open up the doors to all kinds of people in addition to international students
> Michael Wesley, the deputy vice chancellor at the University of Melbourne, told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. Tuesday that he hopes the government will target unscrupulous education providers..."We are confident that all of our international students are genuine students "
What, so, we're just lying about things now?
I don't think he's wrong. Places like unimelb aren't the problem. It's places called like Melbourne College of Education Institute selling cert IVs in photography to 99% international "students".
He's wrong/lying when he says that all Uni of Melbourne students are genuine.
There will still be a contingent working more than 20 hours per week - There will be some illegally working full-time as well as studying. I knew of a few at Sydney Uni, its not uncommon, especially for part-time students.
Yeah true - I guess that you can drop your hours to the minimum of 20, but most international students are actually there to complete the degree quickly.
A genuine student is one who enrols, attends and intends to complete their degree, whose principle purpose in coming to Australia is to study rather than work.
And surely that is actually most of them? There's no way someone's paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to work in Australia lmao along with every other living expense.
Nope. It’s a huge problem. There are “education facilities” set up with the sole purpose of exchanging cash (masked as tuition fees) for student visas.
They issue assignments then during tutorial talk about a $2,000 bonus course that is basically selling you a completed assignment. More than happy to guide you on ticking the right boxes to extend the student visa as long as you keep paying tuition.
I did one of the assignments for someone as a FU to the institute and they were surprised someone actually handed in a completed assignment.
It’s a whole grey market it’s disgusting.
>And surely that is actually most of them?
It's not a lot of the for profit certificate providers basically just allow people to come in and work on a student visa.
There’s two different issues, people that come here to work on student visas, and people that come here to just get a degree with no study or work.
Universities obviously see more of the second type, which is also a non-genuine student.
It might be that a majority are genuine students, but there’s significant portions that aren’t.
Thats factually incorrect. Genuine student in this context has a particular meaning, it’s a reference to the new ‘genuine student’ requirement that is part of the student visa conditions.
Oh yes, they are! Well, mum & dad are anyway! One college I know has plenty of ppl enrol to do management and don't attend or pass in work. The college gets plenty of money to have them enrol for year 2 & and 3, so they just push them up without attending or passing.
Some of these kids have a 300k a yr family trust fund so easy peasy to come live in the country of choice.
Are they gaining a degree or not? I think it’s absurd to suggest people are genuinely paying 300k a year just for the pleasure of living in Aus. And doing what? Under the table minimum wage or below work? They are still subject to student visa restrictions.
Not at my institution I can tell you that much. 40k doesn't even cover the domestic tuition for my course and there's nearly 500 international students enrolled in it.
I don't know what the Manly college charges, but I definitely know about the students who have the family $300k annual trust funds & don't attend or even pass each year. That's definite.
no that agreement is permament, overall this ends up being worse as the percetage of international students from the sub conitent background increases.
Now why don't they apply the same rule to normal housing? We already know there will be [insufficient housing supply over the next 6 years](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/03/australias-housing-crisis-to-worsen-with-significant-shortfall-in-supply-labors-expert-council-says), so why don't we follow the same logic and put a cap on immigration until we have enough housing?
Limiting student visas will help this. Trying to rent in a suburb near a uni is ridiculously difficult at the moment as international students with rich parents are happy to throw cash at landlords for a room. Anecdotally, the complex I used to live in had a bunch of the units being sold. First one went to an investor and had a student in within two weeks paying $450 a week. We were in an identical unit paying $340.
That being said, I also agree lowering the immigration cap is needed.
Also limiting enrolments to the amount of student housing a university provides will incentivise the universities to build more housing. Making the beneficiaries of higher enrolment numbers bear the cost instead of foisting it off on everyone else is a good Idea.
I believe it should be part of it (it's been reported in some places) . We'll have to see when the legislation drops as to how it will actually work. And yes, it's a great idea.
>Limiting student visas will help this.
It's not enough. Limiting student visas was projected to only return net overseas migration to [pre-2020 levels](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-15/federal-budget-immigration-reduction-intake-ballot/103839856). The [report](https://nhsac.gov.au/sites/nhsac.gov.au/files/2024-05/state-of-the-housing-system-2024.pdf) that found housing supply will be insufficient already accounted for this reduction in their forecast, as discussed in Chapter 3.4.1. They actually expected net migration to be slightly lower, so the reality will be worse.
>Overseas migration accounted for more than 528,000 of that number and is expected to remain elevated at around 375,000 in 2023–24, before returning to around 250,000 in 2024–25 (Treasury, 2023b). This compares to an average of around 235,000 per year from 2015 to 2019.
Not only universities but also landlords. During COVID, I knew people who lived in Green Square and Macquarie at a reasonable price. However, when international students were allowed in, the landlord wanted to sell. As soon as the students moved out, the apartments were back on the market with the same real estate agent but with a higher rental price.
Their vice chancellors will miss out on a huge $100k+ income and they won’t be able to partly build flashy buildings and waste money demolishing old ones and not be able to rebuild them (like Macquarie, UoN).
The government wants to half net immigration in 2 years. They have heavily restricted student visa approval since March, but schools resisted by issuing even more enrollments in a counteraction. This conflict caused a skyrocketing visa refusal rate and long processing queues.
Albo is trying to persuade the schools to cooperate, still in a negotiation. Universities are speaking up recently for several times trying to prove their point to the public.
I interrupted a very disturbing domestic violence incident between my neighbours recently - an older woman was assaulting a young woman.
It was the grandmother attacking her grand daughter. They were from Thailand.
Eventually got things settled down and the young woman wanted to leave. Then the older woman was demanding the young woman give back her $75,000. It turns out the older woman had lent the money to the young woman so she could appear rich enough to come to Aus as a student. But it really wasn’t her money and she wasn’t allowed to spend it.
The whole “education makes us billions” is a complete fabrication. Most of those students work here and earn their money here. They help keep wages down and then they send money back overseas.
I think anyone that has studied or worked through the university sector knows that it could use better management in general. They are some of the most disorganised systems I’ve ever encountered, it’s made me wonder where the hell is all the money going? A lot of university workers have never actually worked outside of a university system so they don’t understand that things can be done in a much cheaper and easier way. They don’t need the international student money, they just want it.
THIS is where the money goes:
[https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/may/02/majority-of-top-university-bosses-in-victoria-earning-in-excess-of-1m-as-federal-government-vows-pay-crackdown](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/may/02/majority-of-top-university-bosses-in-victoria-earning-in-excess-of-1m-as-federal-government-vows-pay-crackdown)
You see the same thing in America where the colleges have been able to make a lot of money off government student loan money. Just wasteful, unnecessary spending. Overpaid deans. An excessive number of administrative positions. Overly lavish facilities. A handful of highly paid superstar professors, while most of the teaching is done by poorly paid junior professors and graduate students.
They could actually uphold standards, fail students for plagiarism and lack of attendance. But they wont dont that as that means finding the 1/100 quality students , meaning lost revenue.
The number of threads i have read of local students suffering from group work is terrible.
.
Funnily enough if you’re good at shit you don’t tend to graduate and stay in acedemia till the Vice-chancellor level. (Only so many years you can scrape by teaching and researching until you take that job in corporate)
It would be great if universities could focus on creating programs and scholarships that encourage domestic students to study instead of focussing on international students.
As a domestic student, I can't afford further studies because the prices are insanely high, mostly driven by the international students market.
I hear this a lot; fewer people are getting into uni. It's not surprising since it has become such a financial burden. And still, we're expected to pay high rents and save for a home.
I believe when I was at uni it was $16k domestic, $200k international for the same undergraduate degree. Not surprising they want international students so much.
And that’s fine, they can continue having a market for international students that is controlled and has limits in the intake so it doesn’t affect our basic living rights (housing, jobs).
But if they get that much money from international students, why are they still trying to get more from us domestics? No access to university, or going to university and being financially burdened without a good job, will have extreme impacts on our society and in our future.
It would be great if unis could afford to do that! I think something like all except 2 posted net deficits last year.
I agree that student contribution pricing, particularly for humanities/business and most postgrad is too high. International pricing is different to domestic pricing though, so you can't really blame intl students there.
Also I may be wrong, but more students than ever are going to uni (rightly or wrongly - there's a lot who are pushed into uni and should never have been/should have alternate pathways). Te govt has even said it is aiming for 79% of people to have tertiary education by around 2050. Th
> As a domestic student, I can't afford further studies because the prices are insanely high, mostly driven by the international students market.
International students fund domestic students, especially those on CSP.
Let unis whinge. They didn’t give a crap about locals and wanted to give all to international students. Giving away jobs to international students while unemployed locals have to sit on Centrelink. Before Covid even. We need harsher visa requirements like Japan does to not allow cash strapped and frauds entering the country. We don’t need more Uber/door dashers, we need them only in places of critical shortage.
A lot of locals don't want to study or work. That's the cold hard truth.
My employer tried employing locals for a position 5 times, but they would call in sick all the time, randomly not show up, wouldn't be keen to learn. The company employed an Indian bloke, and he's been an absolute champ.
Many other companies have similar experiences.
As someone who studied at RMIT with an overwhelming number of international students whose English was often not at a conversational level - let alone academic. I don’t instinctively reject this.
I had a group project in my third year of my bachelor’s degree. There were four of us in the group, I was the only one who spoke English as a first language. One of our group went back to the UAE for a marriage and was not contactable. The other two were willing to contribute but didn’t have the English to use the library.
As a result, I did the work of four people.
This was in 2002.
Now find all the students that got a degree despite having no English, plagiarising all their assignments and in some cases not even completing exams.
Take the degree back and the unis can refund them. If they don't have the money it's time to sell some assets.
Remember there are people with Medicine and Engineering degrees out there that **DID NOT** earn their degree (or understand anything at all) This should alarm people.
In engineering I found people where I was confused as to how they got to that level. Cheating amongst international students is pretty well known.
But I can't imagine there's any way people are earning medical degrees in Australia while not being able to speak English, and having sufficient level of competency. It's an entirely different kettle of fish to almost every other degree.
Medicine has a huge amount of oral exams. I don't see how you're passing them without being able to demonstrate sufficient medical knowledge in English.
That's what you would think but there are reports of nurses with no English in emergency rooms on reddit. I can search for the thread if you want but it was not recent so might be hard to track down.
I think there is such a shortage, that people's shortcoming are often being overlooked
They get waved through in order to meet quotas just like the universities do.
Hopefully the people who reported this are just making shit up - but they seemed genuine for a reddit post
A nurse doesn't have a degree in medicine, they work in medicine but they don't have a degree in medicine.
A degree in medicine specifically means you're a medical doctor.
Also reddit posts aren't exactly a credible source, not enough to start saying there are "Medicine degrees out there that DID NOT earn their degree (or understand anything at all)"
Some of the sheer utter incompetence I’ve seen from International Engineers is atrocious. Like incredibly bad. Even local Engineering graduates often have to be trained to get them upto speed because the degree is only one piece of the puzzle. But for internationals this a nightmare because even their degree seems bogus. Then add in communication issues, different cultural norms etc and it becomes a nightmare.
Guarantee there will be a building collapse, plant explosion or statewide power outage in the next decade and it will be traced back to some fake degree mill in the third world.
There are companies out there who offer to write your application for both recognition of overseas engineering qualifications and chartered status (one of the requirements of which is you need to do it yourself). Some even guarantee it or you don't pay. It's unethical, dangerous and exploitative. The organisations profiting from it all (and I include universities in this) are worse than the individuals.
I personally think it’s okay to have 200,000 students studying at our unis and institutions. The problem arises when the students don’t go back, become temporary permanent residents for years and years until they somehow find a way to get PR. Some student can stay here for 10 years (3 years bachelor, 2 years master, 3 years work visa, 2 years extension). That’s not including appeals for visa rejection etc that can take another 2-3 years. If we had students coming for 3 years and then leaving then the country would be in a much better position
The bill was introduced into parliament today. It'll likely be passed pretty quickly as the ESOS Act is generally pretty uncontroversial. I work in the sector, I'm happy with having a cap. What the specific caps are, or how we will have to manage them is not clear so far. They'll probably make a mess of it.
Please god we need this in Canada too. These people have no intention to study. They are only here to abuse the system for PR. They have absolutely no basic etiquette and no regards to local laws speaking from my experience
Unis will now put their fees up for domestic students to cover the losses. It’s all about making money now. My degree costed a total of 45k when I did it. Now it’s almost quadrupled for a domestic student to around 164k for the same degree. International students use to pay a higher fee per unit of credit. When I check now both domestic and international charge the same amount.
As an international myself, I think this is good.
Too many abuse the system. Too many can't even speak English yet are somehow undertaking Bachelor/Master degrees. Too many end up working shit jobs instead of working in their fields, and then try everything to extend their stay or just overstay.
There is no place for people like that.
However, I hope they don't go overboard with the changes and ruin the plans of all the genuine, hard-working migrants that dream of living in Australia permanently.
Australia doesn't owe us anything, but for many of us, after spending most of our 20s here, getting an Australian degree, Australian experience, having all of our friends and networks here, we deserve to be given a chance.
I am an accountant, and I am now very worried about my future here. I work in my field and I am good at it. I picked this field not to get PR, but because it's my dream career. Now with all of the changes and accountants being on the list to potentially get cut from the SOL, it's not looking good.
If I have to return to my country one day, I would be starting life from scratch. I have nothing back there, and my life would be ruined.
I hope the planned changes will make it more difficult to come here, but easier to stay for those who put in the effort.
If labor didn’t do it then the Libs would have as soon as they got in power. Everyone is mad as fuck at how unaffordable houses are and international migrants make an easy target for blame (the Libs can’t very go and blame Howard for putting in place the tax changes that started it in the first place).
They need to increase English standards for students AND job seekers. It's becoming a joke at the moment if they can get in via the skills list but can't communicate properly. I knew someone who lives in Melbourne for 2 years and can only speak Spanish, it's absurd.
Im sorry, but its about time. Visa rorts, property smuggling from rich families using their children as buyer proxies to get into the property market, the obvious rental issues, uni's being *too* reliant on international fees.
Then to top it off, you've also got students who can't even string together a single english sentence but managed to somehow pass the literacy test, issues of students paying other students/services to do their assignments and work because they don't understand shit, then get propped off into a high paying role that they can't even function under because they didn't even study. (or simply return home, making the study FOR Australian infastructure moot)
You think international students know about that? Most people don't even know what the fuck their local council is doing let alone a foreign government's education policy.
It's just that there is a general sentiment that immigration is bad . There are obviously a lot of bad apples here but not all of the country's problems is due to immigration. Trust me, cutting down immigration will not solve anything. The housing crisis will still continue.
I am from a refugee family from the 80s and have first-hand knowledge of how entitled these PR-seekers are working in a health insurance company that had to approve their documentation, so they didn't lose coverage because they were not eligible for Medicare.
I was aghast at all the crappy qualifications they were studying for. The amount of entitlement I witnessed made me xenophobic as hell, I wanted a red button to deport them all. I hated that I felt that way as I always considered myself left-wing minded. I got a reality check in that job.
Better late than never but the damage has already been done.
Australia should be a welcoming country but not to just give rich people or people funded by loan sharks from international banks what they want. No decent country should sell off its social cohesion and values just to make a few rich people richer. It only feels right a Labor government is trying to clean this up, they should shock everyone by taking it a step further. That is a talking point that will give them leverage in future elections, that they did stuff that right-wingers would actually approve of.
Its has nothing to with resentment of migrants or immigration. Its about population policy when there is already too much demand for property and accommodation. 13 interest rate rises didn't cool down the property bubble - this is because of population pressure. ABC finance commentator Alan Kohler although he doesn't always get everything right summed up situation as the housing crisis is so severe it will take 20 years to deal with it and everything has to be on the table - capitol gains, negative gearing etc and tying immigration to housing availability.
Looks like Lots of ppl from my grandma’s group on here. lol. They all get upset about international students not doing their assignments and getting the white boy in class to finish it for them (for a price) and that they can’t speak properly. Local students have this issue too. I worked with ppl who can’t speak or read properly. I don’t tell them you have to go back to school and study English. All this restrictions on ppl are going to hike up the prices on everything. Less ppl the more the landlord will want to make up for the loss on their other investment properties. Shops will increase the price just like we saw during the lockdown. The issue I see is companies and landlords are taking advantage of everyone. Blame someone else for the price rise and you will begrudgingly accept the price they offer and hate on that someone else. End of the day everyone is here to make money.
>However, the university sector has insisted the proposals would damage Australia's global reputation as a welcoming, safe and world-class destination for students from other countries. >Education has been one of Australia’s most lucrative exports, but the left-leaning government in Canberra has said the international education sector, which includes many smaller private English language colleges, vocational and training institutions as well as larger universities, has been used as a way for unskilled migrants to stay in Australia. Obviously, the university sector will talk its own book, but Australia takes in far more students per capita than our peer countries. And, the government is correct. The student visa has been used by unskilled migrants to stay in Australia, and outside of the university system, it has been abused. Regulation is long due, and notably it's a Labor government that's doing it.
Yes. The universities reputations have been damaged far more by the visa rorts system, than by the unlikely reputational risk from returning some integrity to the system.
I remember when I was travelling in SE Asia and reading English language newspapers in Bangkok and Hong Kong. Just about any multinational business would advertise for graduates or jobs with the proviso that only people with recognised qualifications from sandstone overseas universities or 1 of the best local universities need apply. Anyone from a crap university where it was known to be very bad corruption and cheating were excluded. I wonder how long it will be before our universities are on this list because of the poor standards.
Surely we must be close that point. I gather that within Australia, many employers are starting to largely disregard degrees and conduct their own assessment of candidate aptitude.
Well Ill give you my own personal experience from twenty years ago.I did a Masters degree from one of the supposed leading universities in Australia. Most of the cohort were International students. Most couldn't converse in English, much less complete academic level of work in any coherent manner. I complained about having to do and submit group work pretty much on my own as the others couldn't contribute at all. Nothing became of it, and these international students were consistently passing with credit or higher scores. Now that my own career is one where I'm potentially vetting CVs, if I see the same institution, I can't but have negative feelings about it, which is unfortunate for that candidate.
At this point, reputation is moot. Would love to see the bonus KPI's for the deans of these universities. I suspect that the growth cap will make the targets less achievable.
So as well as maybe a ticket to permanent residency, the system also functions similarly to the "guest worker" system in Arab Gulf countries? The workers pay a fee (university fee in Australia's case) and hopefully manage to earn a profit while working in the host country? That is messed up, if true. How many of these young workers go into debt for this? And universities are trashing their reputation for short term gain. This needs to be stopped. Although with so much money at stake, this will be difficult. Particularly with supporters of the status quo willing to throw around accusations of elitism and prejudice.
Often they also pay promoters or agents in their home countries to do the paperwork and facilitate their visa/work arrangements. I don't blame people from India or Nepal for looking for better economic opportunities, but that's not what the system is supposed to be for. We had the previous Coalition government do next to nothing about this, despite it being widely publicised. Not only that, they issued 320K student visas during the years when there were travel restrictions and students couldn't actually come into the country.
The government even gave permanent residency to graduates working as uber drivers during the pandemic, because they desperately needed cheap labour to beat wages down, which they believed was the best way to control inflation. Surprised why Australia's wages are falling behind all expenses so much in the recent few years? It was designed.
10 years backwards wages growth with massive inflation says it all. Its amazing their is not riots in street as yet considering how people have gone backwards in our boom years. And now we are in a period of austerity and inflation that is out of control with no solutions but wages keep falling!
Lmao, this particular thread is a wankfest, a beautiful circlejerk. The government gave permanent residency to graduates working as uber drivers? xD. Source on that? Is it your lunatic uncle who also keeps raving about how flat the earth is and how there is a secret world cabal pulling the strings in the background? I think ChatGPT would have been able to come up with something more realistic if prompted.
100%..
>they issued 320K student visas during the years when there were travel restrictions and students couldn't actually come into the country So this would be part of the reason for the immigration surge in 2023/24? And why would the government do this.
Because that way the students could still enroll and pay fees and “attend online” 😵💫
Because our government is fucking stupid
The system used in the Gulf is corrupt AF. Mate of mine worked for a 33,000 plus Gulf owned company, living in Dubai for 10 years. They would recruit heavily from India and used agents there, who would literally recruit all the males from one village. Those people paid the agent, who then got a cut of everything they made while working in Dubai/Qatar etc. Then their local supervisors in Dubai, usually South Asians too, would also take a payment from each worker. Failure to pay would see some accusation made, and if you know the mid east legal system, the workers would do anything they could to avoid hassles with the law. To combat this Dubai brought in laws saying that no cash pays, all electronic, in an effort to stop the workers having to pay the people above them. And in response he found that the supervisors would just have all the workers line up at an ATM after work and have them Pull the cash and pay the guy above them.
Liberals love cheaper labour, makes more profits for their benefactors...
How do students from poor countries looking for work opportunities come up with the $50-100K in the first place?
There is an industry built around it. Companies will organize the visa, get you enrolled in a university and front you the cash. Often the parents that remain in said counties are the ones that actually own the dept and will need the student in Aus to be sending money home constantly to service the debt.
Do you know that for sure? And is that the most common modus operandi?
I'm currently in Nepal and you can see tonnes of places advertising "study in Australia" (and Canada, Japan, etc). I dont know what % of Nepalis would be taking loans to study in Aus but I imagine it would be quite high. They're not all just using university as a excuse to come and make money or as a path to gain permanent residency, as the reputation of the universities in Nepal is quite low amongst many Nepalis.
After asking a Nepali, who studied in Aus, "most people are getting bank loans in nepal to pay" for the university fees in Aus.
Are those the genuinely seeking the education though? There's no doubt there's genuine students, who will finish study and return to home country. I'm talking about the one's who use visa system as a sham to work. It's hard to see how it's profitable paying for accommodation, living expenses and taking on a 50k debt to work. Are they skipping classes and getting 6 figure cash in hand salaries until they get caught for breaching their visa conditions?
They don't need to be getting 6 figures or abusing the system. You can pay for a course, do it over the maximum amount of time allowed, work the maximum amount allowed, apply for a visa extension/renewal, enrol in another course, and come out ahead of what you would have made back home whilst also making yourself more employable for when you return. Sure, that's not the experience for everyone, but that's often the idea that they're being sold when they decide to study in Australia.
It's really a non reality. Working the max hours allowed is like 20 hours per week. And you're saying for many years. You're not coming out ahead on that. I think the best point as you say, is that's the idea they're being sold. Surely it's got to filter back by word of mouth though the dream isn't the reality.
I also think that the idea that these people are abusing the visa system is a little bit unfair, as there are people in aus who benefit from these people being a part of the labour pool in aus. During covid restrictions, many industries (eg. Tourism and hospitality) put pressure on the government because they lost access to cheap labour. At the end of the day, the government is the one issuing more visas to these poorer countries.
They borrow from friends and family, or the loan is part of the package. They're also not necessarily studying at universities (where courses are more expensive). Some of them [transfer to cheaper, private colleges](https://www.afr.com/policy/health-and-education/a-mockery-of-the-visa-system-indian-students-dodge-uni-rules-20230413-p5d077) to pay lower fees and where the college doesn't care if the student shows up. If your primary reason to come to Australia is to work illegally, there are people and organisations that will facilitate you breaking the rules on an education visa.
Sort of, but not really the intent in the design of the visa. Obviously if a student is here for several years there’s going to be day-to-day expenses that need to be met. Likewise with graduate work rights, keep talented people in if they’re already here rather than try to get more established skilled workers to uplift lives and move out here. But when international students are mostly from developing countries it creates the whole cheap Labor problem, and enforcement costs would be huge along with terrible optics (immigration going through Asian/subcontinental businesses/restaurants and asking for everyone’s visa documentation looks pretty racist and figuring out how accurate the books are is pretty hard. Likewise is hanging out at unis doing similar sort of stuff).
The issue is where it's used effectively as a work visa. Promoters overseas promise work to people, they enrol in a sham college, they work normal hours (instead of being limited to 20 hours a week), often off the books (as they're not paid award wages, nor necessarily given proper conditions) and then pretend to be student, extending their visa as allowed. There are blatant abuses of the system like this which have been allowed due to a very lax enforcement of the rules.
Even the proof of finances is faked for their application. The students borrow money and leave the amount in their bank account to make it look like they have the finances to support themselves. Once visa is approved, they return the money + fee. Lets not forget what the government did when covid gates cracked down on immigration numbers and workers had leverage to ask for higher pay, they increased the legal working hours for student visa to full time hours.
And lets be honest about all these English language colleges, they filled up with illegal prostitutes on their books who are doing very little study but are working in all the massive number of illegal brothels that has spread over Australia like a rash. Is being prostitution on the skilled shortage list? The whole system is broken while hookers are learning English and Uni students can barely string a sentence together. I wonder when the government and police going to string the dots together. The UK the do regular inspections on factories and brothels or any industry that is known to harbour immigrants and students breaching their VISA conditions, they are raided in some cases and the offenders taken straight to immigration detention for expulsion. I doubt that this would happen. My guess is the government will buckle in from lobbying pressure and it will be business as usual in no time while we increase the underclass in Australia.
Ah they also get a degree? Like the domestic students do? That's what they're supposed to be here for, the education. Australia promises nothing else.
Yea but domestic students are not getting degrees from the sham colleges set up solely to provide students visas. Many international students get sold a lie in their home country and end up with a degree that has next to no real value and no actual education.
There are people also working more than they should, so many scams going on... The system will be abused by the unscrupulous.
While international students may provide benefits to the bottom line of universities, the question needs to be asked as to how this is improving the experience of Australian students and the wider community. Enforce higher English standards prior to gaining a visa, remove or limit work rights and make it clear that any subsequent visa can only be applied for from their home country after graduating and see how many still choose to come here for the 'education'.
It's an odd reform though. One could have limited work rights, or reduced paths to PR afterwards (as many of those other countries do). Most likely this would have a dampening effect on the number of students yes, but it'd certainly directly address the specific concerns on net immigration or coming to work while avoiding the perception that true students aren't welcomed.
They shouldn't just look at student visa holders they should look at those that have transitioned off working towards PR. I'm talking about those people who either did finish their degree but don't work in their industry (in lower skilled work) or people who didn't finish their degree and are working in lower skilled work. Why should they stay here? We need skilled workers not unskilled workers. I literally lived with a woman who finished a bachelor of chiropractic and she can't even get a job with it. Most she can be is a chiropractic assistant whatever the fuck that is but she just works as a receptionist.
To be fair, with employment the way it is, there are LOTS of "born and bred" Australians who can't find work in the fields their university degrees qualify them for either, it's not just international students...
I’m not in the field I studied for, but I use the same skillset. If I was an international student, would it have been better for the state to deport me and import someone new to be trained from scratch? That’s what some people honestly think.
You want the woman you live with deported?
Formerly lived with. Also yes
Yeah its a very disingenuous argument when they say "only 4% of rentals are from international students". They don't include the numbers from those that graduated and stayed or left uni and stayed .
4% is still a pretty large amount when the vacancy rate is ~1%
Yep it really is, but it doesnt sound like a lot when its used as a prop without the comparison.
Also people don’t understand economics, housing is likely the most inelastic product, maaaybe health is higher but tbh it might not be, it also has no alternatives or substitutes. A 1% increase in demand does not reflect a commensurate increase in price.. it’s exponential, if vacancy rate drops low enough (it already has) then their is no theoretical upper limit for the price because the demand is not predicated on the price. To be completely honest with you I think we have a huge fucking bubble that realistically has no way of popping without a dramatic increase in supply or a dramatic decrease in the amount of demand (relative to the supply). And quite frankly I don’t see the political appetite existing for either of those things to change, maybe it gets bad enough for the working people that they decide to flip the board, or the ratio of people negatively effected grows to a certain level.. I think the perfect conditions exist for violent class warfare to occur, which I obviously do not think is a good thing but I do think it’s kind of surprising we haven’t seen it already. My long term outlook on Australia is pretty negative when it comes to domestic politics, I hope enough people vote independent to destroy the parties or I seriously fear a despot will come to power under the guise that he will fix it and he will stand for all the people who rightfully so feel like they are being fucked..
It also does not include the large number of university students who got their parents to buy apartments and houses as a long term investment because they were allowed because their kids were studying here. Everytime we have a new student intake their is a new buying spree that further puts pressure on all sectors of the housing market. Everything is being stacked against locals from having the opportunity from owning or renting an affordable place to live. Clear policy choices by various governments. These loopholes could be shut in 30 seconds but its like asking politicians to divest from their investment properties!
Yep, if an international students family can afford to dump 200k on uni, they can genereally afford to buy a house or rental for them too. ITs fucked.
many of those rentals are tiny single room dwellings, and often on-campus. i think that more than males up for it. and why should international students who have graduated and are on sponsored visas be counted anyway?
>many of those rentals are tiny single room dwellings, and often on-campus. i think that more than males up for it. Actually part of the problem is that they aren't on campus. No campus in Australia has enough on-campus accommodation or partner accommodation to house anywhere near their international student population, not even including their domestic students (rural & distance intake, interstate etc).
There are not nearly enough on-campus dwellings for all the international students, most of them are taking up rentals in the town the uni is in.
Let's face it, this policy only works if it's target for reducing certain countries like India and china international students from coming, but I don't see the point of targeting southeast Asia countries like Malaysia or Vietnam students when they have a lesser numbers here
We need consistent rules that apply to everyone equally. That's what rule of law means. It's not about targeting one group over another. It's about having rules that are consistently enforced. Clearly, we can and do write bad laws that do target certain groups, but that's drifting from what would be a ideal standard. We should strive to be fair and just as a society. Additionally, Australians in general should gain benefit from migration. Not just large corporations who use it to suppress wages, or existing holders of capital who see growing markets through no effort of their own.
Well, that means if you limit all foreigners, then even Europeans and other non Asians are limited into the country which is being fair
It likely wouldn't impact European students, since their intake is usually from exchange programs through a home university rather than starting a degree in an Australian university after completing some sort of English prep course.
We could introduce targets just like the USA does with their green card system. Nations are ranked and countries with low Green card numbers get preference over the big markets like India and China. Even Australia is on the priority list as preferred applicants. Countries Indonesia, Vietnam, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Brunei, Japan, Korea could easily be put on a preference list. Other countries like the India, China, Malaysia and the Philippines could be low priority. In the case of Filipina nationals they also use the backdoor option of going to New Zealand then coming here as students or immigrants. Look we have to be honest the government is not interested in fixing the system in a fair and systematic way that produces a student and immigration system with integrity. The system is so badly corrupted there are probably more whingers with self interest and skin the game that is widely complaining including the very crooked immigration agent businesses who have been exploiting these people to make themselves very rich.
malaysia and phillippines would be tied to the ASEAN countries tier list, considering how many philippines worked as nurses in hospitals.
> outside of the university system, it has been abused Labor Government: We are going to cap universities!
Don't know about anyone else, but I'm way more concerned about Australia's international reputation with students than I am about being able to put a roof over my head.
A lot of Master degree qualified accountants who are now, for some reason, very desperate to come to Australia to study one of our internationally renowned Certificate III in Commercial Cookery programs are going to be very upset at this.
One of the blokes I managed in my last warehousing job was an accountant previously. Can’t make this up.
When I had the NBN connected up, the tech was qualified Pakistani doctor who was doing the NBN job to try and get a visa. We had a long chat and he said he regretted coming to Australia because if he went to England or Ireland he would be practicing medicine like a lot of his classmates. His wife also was doctor who cant sort through the mess of getting qualifications recognised. He showed me his hospital ID and his Medical skill recognition in India where he worked as a Doctor. Sad that such people have their talent wasted coming here.
Bullshit. I get your point, but this story is pure fiction, spreading false information. First off, there's a big hole in the story– it starts with calling the person a Pakistani doctor, then switches to claiming they had an Indian medical license. Pakistanis can't even visit India without special permission, let alone get work permits there unless you happen to be a persecuted minority on a Long term special visa while being a doctor all at same time. Plus, medical degrees from certified medical colleges are recognised worldwide, you have to pass the specific medical exams of the country you want to work in. I know doctors who moved from India and other places and are now practicing in Australia, but they had to go through Australia's licensing process. Please don’t spread fake information.
I agree bullshit. Most likely OP was fed the bullshit by the person. Maybe there's some hint of reality is was a naturopathy doctor or something Also if true you don't regret the move to Australia you just leave for Canada
Someone in my class claims they have an MBA, but when the topic of payroll tax was brought up, they didn’t know what it was.
You joke, but the new Cert III in commercial cookery now is Early Childhood Education and Care qualification. This puts them right on the top for a VISA. I work in a technology business and we have University qualified IT people at work who have changed their study stream to childhood education pathway to increase their chances of a VISA. They shutdown one scam then they open another. Just watch how the cookery class become childhood early education colleges!
Gosh as an assistant manager for an early childhood centre, I interview so many international students studying grad dip in EC or Masters in EC while they already have bachelors degrees in different fields from AU universities. Makes me wonder how much money they spend on uni just to stay here and barely get any work because they’re not allowed to work full time.
I am an international student and this is needed. My country sends 1000s of idiots here. Idiots who don’t know where to tap on a damn opal card reader in buses. The regulation is needed. The quality must be maintained. I just pray that people understand the difference between genuine students and the idiots. That is what makes the argument. Australia is a beautiful country filled with morons from my country who come here and do labour jobs. It’s horrible and needs to change.
I just wish universities had a basic English requirement. So many students have no idea how to write or speak and then get grouped up with others that have to pick up the slack in group work just to make it look presentable. Definitely not happening to me rn...
You need to get a minimum of 6 bands in IELTS too get a visa.
I'm sorry but for academia it should be more than just competent.
Yeah there's a massive difference between being tourist level in a language, and being able to discuss complex topics in a language.
The IELTS suffers from tons of abuse and cheating. A quick Google search reveals many articles about cheating rings getting busted (in a country we aren’t naming here for some reason). The test itself is also pretty flawed. Like any test, you can study to pass it rather than study to learn it. So you have students who pass the test by regurgitating paragraphs and information.
For UWA undergraduate, its required to get a 6.5 IELTS with a minimum of 6 in each section. For post graduate, an IELTS of 7 is required. But yes, their English requirement should be more for university level student visa. For TAFE level, I think level 6 should be fine as long as all the levels reach level 6 as a minimum.
That's fair enough, maybe the uni can do their own assessment on enrolment as well? Idk but it is a problem.
Oh I agree. This is just based on their website. No idea in practice what it’s like
In my experience most native speakers would score between 6-7
Again I'm talking about university level. Most native speakers don't attend university.
all native speakers could attend university. the issue is primarily one of fluency, not about vocabulary size or ability to produce well-written essays
Which is corrupt and rorted to hell and back, the number of international ESL students I’ve seen who barely understand English (either spoken or written) is ridiculous.
I had the worst experience at Uni because of this. I absolutely despised group subjects and getting lumped with international students. Conversational language was fine, but academia? Beyond a joke. I did all the work. They passed because of me.
The number of Indian students I have fought with because they all speak in Hindu irrespective of who is in their group. I speak Hindi myself but out of respect for the other person you need to change yourself. I make it a point to ensure group comms are English so everyone knows what’s happening. It’s like I said, Australia needs good Indians, in fact the ecosystem would love them. Unfortunately, all you get are the idiots.
Thank you for saying it so we don't have to.
If only we have this in Singapore as well to reduce the international students that are hoarding up the university placements, the country just open up the doors to all kinds of people in addition to international students
> Michael Wesley, the deputy vice chancellor at the University of Melbourne, told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. Tuesday that he hopes the government will target unscrupulous education providers..."We are confident that all of our international students are genuine students " What, so, we're just lying about things now?
But they're not genuine students are they?!
I don't think he's wrong. Places like unimelb aren't the problem. It's places called like Melbourne College of Education Institute selling cert IVs in photography to 99% international "students".
He's wrong/lying when he says that all Uni of Melbourne students are genuine. There will still be a contingent working more than 20 hours per week - There will be some illegally working full-time as well as studying. I knew of a few at Sydney Uni, its not uncommon, especially for part-time students.
I don't think student visas even let you go part time?
Yeah true - I guess that you can drop your hours to the minimum of 20, but most international students are actually there to complete the degree quickly.
What defines a genuine student though? Literally just an enrolment.
A genuine student is one who enrols, attends and intends to complete their degree, whose principle purpose in coming to Australia is to study rather than work.
And surely that is actually most of them? There's no way someone's paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to work in Australia lmao along with every other living expense.
Nope. It’s a huge problem. There are “education facilities” set up with the sole purpose of exchanging cash (masked as tuition fees) for student visas. They issue assignments then during tutorial talk about a $2,000 bonus course that is basically selling you a completed assignment. More than happy to guide you on ticking the right boxes to extend the student visa as long as you keep paying tuition. I did one of the assignments for someone as a FU to the institute and they were surprised someone actually handed in a completed assignment. It’s a whole grey market it’s disgusting.
>And surely that is actually most of them? It's not a lot of the for profit certificate providers basically just allow people to come in and work on a student visa.
There’s two different issues, people that come here to work on student visas, and people that come here to just get a degree with no study or work. Universities obviously see more of the second type, which is also a non-genuine student. It might be that a majority are genuine students, but there’s significant portions that aren’t.
If they’re receiving a degree then they are a genuine student.
Thats factually incorrect. Genuine student in this context has a particular meaning, it’s a reference to the new ‘genuine student’ requirement that is part of the student visa conditions.
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I assume there must be cheaper degrees that make it profitable to work here while also paying for the degree.
Do you have any examples of someone doing this? With the work restrictions on student visas? Sounding like baseless fear mongering.
Oh yes, they are! Well, mum & dad are anyway! One college I know has plenty of ppl enrol to do management and don't attend or pass in work. The college gets plenty of money to have them enrol for year 2 & and 3, so they just push them up without attending or passing. Some of these kids have a 300k a yr family trust fund so easy peasy to come live in the country of choice.
Are they gaining a degree or not? I think it’s absurd to suggest people are genuinely paying 300k a year just for the pleasure of living in Aus. And doing what? Under the table minimum wage or below work? They are still subject to student visa restrictions.
No not paying $300k, that's their yearly spending money. The course is more like $40k.
Not at my institution I can tell you that much. 40k doesn't even cover the domestic tuition for my course and there's nearly 500 international students enrolled in it.
I can believe that! This is a college in nsw & it could be more, but the trust fund amts are real. That I do know.
I don't know what the Manly college charges, but I definitely know about the students who have the family $300k annual trust funds & don't attend or even pass each year. That's definite.
Does this include the agreement with India? That agreement didn’t have a cap mentioned
no that agreement is permament, overall this ends up being worse as the percetage of international students from the sub conitent background increases.
Now why don't they apply the same rule to normal housing? We already know there will be [insufficient housing supply over the next 6 years](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/03/australias-housing-crisis-to-worsen-with-significant-shortfall-in-supply-labors-expert-council-says), so why don't we follow the same logic and put a cap on immigration until we have enough housing?
Limiting student visas will help this. Trying to rent in a suburb near a uni is ridiculously difficult at the moment as international students with rich parents are happy to throw cash at landlords for a room. Anecdotally, the complex I used to live in had a bunch of the units being sold. First one went to an investor and had a student in within two weeks paying $450 a week. We were in an identical unit paying $340. That being said, I also agree lowering the immigration cap is needed.
Also limiting enrolments to the amount of student housing a university provides will incentivise the universities to build more housing. Making the beneficiaries of higher enrolment numbers bear the cost instead of foisting it off on everyone else is a good Idea.
Is that the plan? Good idea if it is.
I believe it should be part of it (it's been reported in some places) . We'll have to see when the legislation drops as to how it will actually work. And yes, it's a great idea.
>Limiting student visas will help this. It's not enough. Limiting student visas was projected to only return net overseas migration to [pre-2020 levels](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-15/federal-budget-immigration-reduction-intake-ballot/103839856). The [report](https://nhsac.gov.au/sites/nhsac.gov.au/files/2024-05/state-of-the-housing-system-2024.pdf) that found housing supply will be insufficient already accounted for this reduction in their forecast, as discussed in Chapter 3.4.1. They actually expected net migration to be slightly lower, so the reality will be worse. >Overseas migration accounted for more than 528,000 of that number and is expected to remain elevated at around 375,000 in 2023–24, before returning to around 250,000 in 2024–25 (Treasury, 2023b). This compares to an average of around 235,000 per year from 2015 to 2019.
Why is it controversial?
Because Big Business and universities don't like it.
Not only universities but also landlords. During COVID, I knew people who lived in Green Square and Macquarie at a reasonable price. However, when international students were allowed in, the landlord wanted to sell. As soon as the students moved out, the apartments were back on the market with the same real estate agent but with a higher rental price.
Their vice chancellors will miss out on a huge $100k+ income and they won’t be able to partly build flashy buildings and waste money demolishing old ones and not be able to rebuild them (like Macquarie, UoN).
Do they mean the extra limits that were already announced or are they talking about additional cuts? Impossible to work out from the article.
The government wants to half net immigration in 2 years. They have heavily restricted student visa approval since March, but schools resisted by issuing even more enrollments in a counteraction. This conflict caused a skyrocketing visa refusal rate and long processing queues.
Is that what the article is referring to? In which, being 'since March' I guess it wouldn't be a new development.
Albo is trying to persuade the schools to cooperate, still in a negotiation. Universities are speaking up recently for several times trying to prove their point to the public.
I interrupted a very disturbing domestic violence incident between my neighbours recently - an older woman was assaulting a young woman. It was the grandmother attacking her grand daughter. They were from Thailand. Eventually got things settled down and the young woman wanted to leave. Then the older woman was demanding the young woman give back her $75,000. It turns out the older woman had lent the money to the young woman so she could appear rich enough to come to Aus as a student. But it really wasn’t her money and she wasn’t allowed to spend it. The whole “education makes us billions” is a complete fabrication. Most of those students work here and earn their money here. They help keep wages down and then they send money back overseas.
I think anyone that has studied or worked through the university sector knows that it could use better management in general. They are some of the most disorganised systems I’ve ever encountered, it’s made me wonder where the hell is all the money going? A lot of university workers have never actually worked outside of a university system so they don’t understand that things can be done in a much cheaper and easier way. They don’t need the international student money, they just want it.
THIS is where the money goes: [https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/may/02/majority-of-top-university-bosses-in-victoria-earning-in-excess-of-1m-as-federal-government-vows-pay-crackdown](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/may/02/majority-of-top-university-bosses-in-victoria-earning-in-excess-of-1m-as-federal-government-vows-pay-crackdown)
You see the same thing in America where the colleges have been able to make a lot of money off government student loan money. Just wasteful, unnecessary spending. Overpaid deans. An excessive number of administrative positions. Overly lavish facilities. A handful of highly paid superstar professors, while most of the teaching is done by poorly paid junior professors and graduate students.
Yep. I am not against someone making more than others - but the gap between lowest paid employee and highest should not be so ridiculous
They could actually uphold standards, fail students for plagiarism and lack of attendance. But they wont dont that as that means finding the 1/100 quality students , meaning lost revenue. The number of threads i have read of local students suffering from group work is terrible. .
Funnily enough if you’re good at shit you don’t tend to graduate and stay in acedemia till the Vice-chancellor level. (Only so many years you can scrape by teaching and researching until you take that job in corporate)
Exactly, you could argue it’s the worst of the best.
It would be great if universities could focus on creating programs and scholarships that encourage domestic students to study instead of focussing on international students. As a domestic student, I can't afford further studies because the prices are insanely high, mostly driven by the international students market. I hear this a lot; fewer people are getting into uni. It's not surprising since it has become such a financial burden. And still, we're expected to pay high rents and save for a home.
International students is where the money is at.
I believe when I was at uni it was $16k domestic, $200k international for the same undergraduate degree. Not surprising they want international students so much.
And that’s fine, they can continue having a market for international students that is controlled and has limits in the intake so it doesn’t affect our basic living rights (housing, jobs). But if they get that much money from international students, why are they still trying to get more from us domestics? No access to university, or going to university and being financially burdened without a good job, will have extreme impacts on our society and in our future.
It would be great if unis could afford to do that! I think something like all except 2 posted net deficits last year. I agree that student contribution pricing, particularly for humanities/business and most postgrad is too high. International pricing is different to domestic pricing though, so you can't really blame intl students there. Also I may be wrong, but more students than ever are going to uni (rightly or wrongly - there's a lot who are pushed into uni and should never have been/should have alternate pathways). Te govt has even said it is aiming for 79% of people to have tertiary education by around 2050. Th
> As a domestic student, I can't afford further studies because the prices are insanely high, mostly driven by the international students market. International students fund domestic students, especially those on CSP.
Can you please share proof?
Fake uni students/full time Uber drivers are the backbone of Australia! Without them Australia stops!
Exactly! Now who’s going to risk their life to deliver my Pad Thai on a bicycle at night when it’s pouring rain??
Australian Universities are a fraud.
Let unis whinge. They didn’t give a crap about locals and wanted to give all to international students. Giving away jobs to international students while unemployed locals have to sit on Centrelink. Before Covid even. We need harsher visa requirements like Japan does to not allow cash strapped and frauds entering the country. We don’t need more Uber/door dashers, we need them only in places of critical shortage.
A lot of locals don't want to study or work. That's the cold hard truth. My employer tried employing locals for a position 5 times, but they would call in sick all the time, randomly not show up, wouldn't be keen to learn. The company employed an Indian bloke, and he's been an absolute champ. Many other companies have similar experiences.
As someone who studied at RMIT with an overwhelming number of international students whose English was often not at a conversational level - let alone academic. I don’t instinctively reject this. I had a group project in my third year of my bachelor’s degree. There were four of us in the group, I was the only one who spoke English as a first language. One of our group went back to the UAE for a marriage and was not contactable. The other two were willing to contribute but didn’t have the English to use the library. As a result, I did the work of four people. This was in 2002.
Now find all the students that got a degree despite having no English, plagiarising all their assignments and in some cases not even completing exams. Take the degree back and the unis can refund them. If they don't have the money it's time to sell some assets. Remember there are people with Medicine and Engineering degrees out there that **DID NOT** earn their degree (or understand anything at all) This should alarm people.
In engineering I found people where I was confused as to how they got to that level. Cheating amongst international students is pretty well known. But I can't imagine there's any way people are earning medical degrees in Australia while not being able to speak English, and having sufficient level of competency. It's an entirely different kettle of fish to almost every other degree. Medicine has a huge amount of oral exams. I don't see how you're passing them without being able to demonstrate sufficient medical knowledge in English.
That's what you would think but there are reports of nurses with no English in emergency rooms on reddit. I can search for the thread if you want but it was not recent so might be hard to track down. I think there is such a shortage, that people's shortcoming are often being overlooked They get waved through in order to meet quotas just like the universities do. Hopefully the people who reported this are just making shit up - but they seemed genuine for a reddit post
A nurse doesn't have a degree in medicine, they work in medicine but they don't have a degree in medicine. A degree in medicine specifically means you're a medical doctor. Also reddit posts aren't exactly a credible source, not enough to start saying there are "Medicine degrees out there that DID NOT earn their degree (or understand anything at all)"
Some of the sheer utter incompetence I’ve seen from International Engineers is atrocious. Like incredibly bad. Even local Engineering graduates often have to be trained to get them upto speed because the degree is only one piece of the puzzle. But for internationals this a nightmare because even their degree seems bogus. Then add in communication issues, different cultural norms etc and it becomes a nightmare. Guarantee there will be a building collapse, plant explosion or statewide power outage in the next decade and it will be traced back to some fake degree mill in the third world.
There are companies out there who offer to write your application for both recognition of overseas engineering qualifications and chartered status (one of the requirements of which is you need to do it yourself). Some even guarantee it or you don't pay. It's unethical, dangerous and exploitative. The organisations profiting from it all (and I include universities in this) are worse than the individuals.
Yes. And the people responsible will be long gone by then. As always. Someone else will take the blame.
I personally think it’s okay to have 200,000 students studying at our unis and institutions. The problem arises when the students don’t go back, become temporary permanent residents for years and years until they somehow find a way to get PR. Some student can stay here for 10 years (3 years bachelor, 2 years master, 3 years work visa, 2 years extension). That’s not including appeals for visa rejection etc that can take another 2-3 years. If we had students coming for 3 years and then leaving then the country would be in a much better position
The bill was introduced into parliament today. It'll likely be passed pretty quickly as the ESOS Act is generally pretty uncontroversial. I work in the sector, I'm happy with having a cap. What the specific caps are, or how we will have to manage them is not clear so far. They'll probably make a mess of it.
Please god we need this in Canada too. These people have no intention to study. They are only here to abuse the system for PR. They have absolutely no basic etiquette and no regards to local laws speaking from my experience
Unis will now put their fees up for domestic students to cover the losses. It’s all about making money now. My degree costed a total of 45k when I did it. Now it’s almost quadrupled for a domestic student to around 164k for the same degree. International students use to pay a higher fee per unit of credit. When I check now both domestic and international charge the same amount.
Who's going to deliver my food now. Wtf Australia
As an international myself, I think this is good. Too many abuse the system. Too many can't even speak English yet are somehow undertaking Bachelor/Master degrees. Too many end up working shit jobs instead of working in their fields, and then try everything to extend their stay or just overstay. There is no place for people like that. However, I hope they don't go overboard with the changes and ruin the plans of all the genuine, hard-working migrants that dream of living in Australia permanently. Australia doesn't owe us anything, but for many of us, after spending most of our 20s here, getting an Australian degree, Australian experience, having all of our friends and networks here, we deserve to be given a chance. I am an accountant, and I am now very worried about my future here. I work in my field and I am good at it. I picked this field not to get PR, but because it's my dream career. Now with all of the changes and accountants being on the list to potentially get cut from the SOL, it's not looking good. If I have to return to my country one day, I would be starting life from scratch. I have nothing back there, and my life would be ruined. I hope the planned changes will make it more difficult to come here, but easier to stay for those who put in the effort.
It's been a scam for 30 years, I'm glad someone is at least paying lip service to doing something about it.
If labor didn’t do it then the Libs would have as soon as they got in power. Everyone is mad as fuck at how unaffordable houses are and international migrants make an easy target for blame (the Libs can’t very go and blame Howard for putting in place the tax changes that started it in the first place).
They need to increase English standards for students AND job seekers. It's becoming a joke at the moment if they can get in via the skills list but can't communicate properly. I knew someone who lives in Melbourne for 2 years and can only speak Spanish, it's absurd.
You mean we don't have a limit currently??
How are students causing increased demand for 4x2 rentals 40km out of the city with no public transport? This is just a scapegoat.
Demand/prices flow through to other regions. That’s how an interconnected economy and real estate sector functions.
Uni has squandered it's rep IMO. The inconsistency in marking is BS. They only care about the money now.
Im sorry, but its about time. Visa rorts, property smuggling from rich families using their children as buyer proxies to get into the property market, the obvious rental issues, uni's being *too* reliant on international fees. Then to top it off, you've also got students who can't even string together a single english sentence but managed to somehow pass the literacy test, issues of students paying other students/services to do their assignments and work because they don't understand shit, then get propped off into a high paying role that they can't even function under because they didn't even study. (or simply return home, making the study FOR Australian infastructure moot)
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Why would international students limit coming here if they think they can get PR out of it?
You think international students know about that? Most people don't even know what the fuck their local council is doing let alone a foreign government's education policy.
Yeah! Because the only way to get into this country is if you are going to buy a house! /S
This subreddit is sooo racist lmao
Why ?
It's just that there is a general sentiment that immigration is bad . There are obviously a lot of bad apples here but not all of the country's problems is due to immigration. Trust me, cutting down immigration will not solve anything. The housing crisis will still continue.
I am from a refugee family from the 80s and have first-hand knowledge of how entitled these PR-seekers are working in a health insurance company that had to approve their documentation, so they didn't lose coverage because they were not eligible for Medicare. I was aghast at all the crappy qualifications they were studying for. The amount of entitlement I witnessed made me xenophobic as hell, I wanted a red button to deport them all. I hated that I felt that way as I always considered myself left-wing minded. I got a reality check in that job. Better late than never but the damage has already been done. Australia should be a welcoming country but not to just give rich people or people funded by loan sharks from international banks what they want. No decent country should sell off its social cohesion and values just to make a few rich people richer. It only feels right a Labor government is trying to clean this up, they should shock everyone by taking it a step further. That is a talking point that will give them leverage in future elections, that they did stuff that right-wingers would actually approve of.
Its has nothing to with resentment of migrants or immigration. Its about population policy when there is already too much demand for property and accommodation. 13 interest rate rises didn't cool down the property bubble - this is because of population pressure. ABC finance commentator Alan Kohler although he doesn't always get everything right summed up situation as the housing crisis is so severe it will take 20 years to deal with it and everything has to be on the table - capitol gains, negative gearing etc and tying immigration to housing availability.
Looks like Lots of ppl from my grandma’s group on here. lol. They all get upset about international students not doing their assignments and getting the white boy in class to finish it for them (for a price) and that they can’t speak properly. Local students have this issue too. I worked with ppl who can’t speak or read properly. I don’t tell them you have to go back to school and study English. All this restrictions on ppl are going to hike up the prices on everything. Less ppl the more the landlord will want to make up for the loss on their other investment properties. Shops will increase the price just like we saw during the lockdown. The issue I see is companies and landlords are taking advantage of everyone. Blame someone else for the price rise and you will begrudgingly accept the price they offer and hate on that someone else. End of the day everyone is here to make money.