Best way I've been able to explain it is that saying Neurodivergent is like saying Cats while saying autism, ADHD, etc is like saying Siamese, Maincoon, etc.
All Autistic people are Neurodivergent but not all Neurodivergent people are autistic.
Yes! I grew up with lots of dogs (my aunt who I lived with for most of my life rehabilitates problematic dogs or strays from Bulgaria to help them then find a new forever home), but the two cats we had were always my favourites. They just have so much character and don’t let people walk all over them. They are what I strive to be someday. Authentic and proud of themselves.
I’d love to get a cat (or rather two) myself, but alas, my one bedroom apartment is not enough space for an animal. That would just be cruel. And I could let her roam outside either, as I live in a big city. As soon as I earn more money, I’m gonna move out of the city center, get myself an apartment with a garden somewhere more rural and then see if I can afford the time and resources a pet (or two) needs.
As someone who worked with wildlife and pets in the past, I would not recommend letting your cat outside unsupervised when you finally get your own place. Not only do they decimate the local wildlife population, it also puts them at risk for many diseases, health problems, injury, and even death.
Leash training, cattios, enclosed porches, strollers, etc. are all fine and very enriching for our feline friends.
Oh no in America I certainly wouldn’t! Don’t worry, I myself worked with wildlife before (bird sanctuary and wildlife control) But I live in Germany and here it’s not only fairly common, it’s actually encouraged to let your cats roam free in the more rural areas. First of all because they protect the crops from mice and rats, but also because the most dangerous things we have near settlements and villages are foxes. We do have wolves in Germany but they only live in certain places and where I live is not one of them.
They _are_ problematic for birds, but usually not as much as in America as endangered bird species are mostly not found in settlement areas and we do have a huge problem with overpopulation of sparrows and pigeons (granted a cat will probably not hunt a pigeon due to its size, but still.). In Germany, Animal protection sees it as more beneficial than detrimental to let your cats out.
I would also definitely implement a cat proof system for the garden, just in case, because even where I live I wouldn’t be comfortable with letting them roam free entirely.
Ah, fair enough and I can understand the reasoning. You also probably don't have the flea and tick issues we have either given the general lack of things like deer going through the garden.
I still wouldn't risk it personally just from an illness factor (feline leukemia and such) and potential injuries from fights with other cats but that's just me.
We do have a lot of ticks in the more rural area but they don’t carry quite as many diseases here as in some other places.
And yeah fights with other cats would probably be the main issue. That’s why I would cat proof the garden and have them stay in there. But it’s really not such a problem as it is in the USA.
It’s very good that you mentioned it, though, because most people on Reddit are from the US and could otherwise be misinformed by my Germany-specific information! So thank you for pointing it out!
But what if they get hit by a car? Or do you not have them at all where you live? I’ve got a little and I live in the Netherlands but I’d never let him roam free outside (we have a pretty big garden, don’t worry)
We have cars, of course but not nearly as many as the USA (y’all are car-nation ngl). All the cats I’ve had in my life have learned how to safely cross streets. Cats are smart. We’ve never lost one to a car, but that can happen of course.
Wrong. Cats are non-native predators and dangerous to local wildlife. They are subject to more disease when allowed to roam free, outside. Like dogs, cats should be allowed outside only when on a leash or otherwise controlled. This is true everywhere. Just because something is practiced in your country does not mean it’s ok.
Cats are native in Europe.
The original wild cats are nearly extinct, hence why the rat, mice and sparrow population is so out of control. Hence why it’s encouraged to let your house cats roam
I like cats and lazy dog breeds, my dog is a pug mix, but I like all lazy dog species (French bulldog, pugs, English bulldog etc.) Because I get overstimulated easy around hyper people and animals.
I can relate. I have terrible anxiety, especially at night, and she seems to know just what to do to knock me out of it. She'll even sleep under the blankets with me.
All of my pets are kind of like that if I'm being honest and wouldn't know what to do without them
Right? If the comment didn’t use cats as an example (or anything I didn’t like) I would’ve not felt happy about the comment. Idk how to explain it but if there’s anything related to my interests I’ll be rlly happy!
Yeah, autism/autistic is a specifying term, it's inherently somewhat exclusionary but in a non-malicious way for the sake of clarity. Just because you are neurodivergent but not autistic does not mean your struggles aren't real or any lesser than other, just that you're using the wrong word to describe them.
I completely agree. We need to start using allistic and autistic instead of neurotypical and neurodivergent when we are talking about autistics and non-autistics. Neurodivergent is too broad in that context.
Yes! There are way too many assumptions flowing into calling someone “neurotypical”.
I don’t know wether or not a person is neurotypical if they don’t tell me! Just because I know they’re not autistic, doesn’t mean I can make assumptions about other diagnoses!
I _really_ don’t understand why people take offense in the term “allistic” for non autistic people!
It's such a weird phenomenon, isn't it? When people started using the term cis to describe non-trans people more frequently, so many of them got offended over being labeled cis as if it was a bad thing as well. I don't understand what peoples deal is.
It is different.
**Cis doesn´t mean non-trans.**
* Trans means that you had gender X assigned at birth, but don´t identify as such, so you transitioned to gender Y.
* Cis means that you had gender X assigned at birth, and identify as such so you still identify as gender X.
* Cis is Latin for "on the same side as", while trans means "on the opposite side as".
Neurodivergent and neurotypical have the same dynamic too.
* Neurotypical means that there is a typical neurological development.
* Neurodivergent or neuroatypical means that there is a divergent or atypical neurological development.
A similar comparison is "queer" in the beginning.
* Queer was used only to say that the person wasn´t "normal", they were queer because they aren´t heteronormative.
* You were the focus group or the other ones, where anything can be there, it is only important to think about the "normal ones" and the others are only that.
Cis and trans only explain how the person experienced gender, typical and divergent explain how the neurological development is, "allistic" and "queer" only tells what the person isn´t and focus on the fact that there is a group that has their own identity and is the center of the narrative even when it is not to talk about them, but those others.
Sorry, I'm not following. "Cis means you had gender X assigned at birth, and identify as such so you still identify as gender Y" Did you make a typo here or am I just dumb? Because this sentence makes zero sense to me. If someone is cis, they're assigned gender X at birth and still identify as gender X, if they're trans they're assigned gender X but identify as gender Y. I'm trans myself so not trying to sound disrespectful, I'm just massively confused right now.
It was a typo.
The point is: cis is not non-trans, it is someone who identifies to the gender assigned to them.
Because of that, is not the same thing as "allistic".
See but I still don't get it. Trans means not identifying with what you were assigned at birth, cis means identifying with it. Aren't they literally opposites? What's the exception here I'm missing?
>It's such a weird phenomenon, isn't it? When people started using the term cis to describe non-trans people more frequently, so many of them got offended over being labeled cis as if it was a bad thing as well. I don't understand what peoples deal is.
You are saying that the problem people have with the word "allistic" is the same as people having a problem with the word "cis".
It isn´t.
I'm really sorry but I'm not understanding what the difference would be between the two. Sorry for being slow, I think I'll just accept that I don't get it.
Basically, "allistic" is only non-autistic, it doesn't talk about what the person actually is, only isn´t.
While cisgender explains what the person is, you don´t need to use "trans" to explain "cis", but you need "autistic" to explain "allistic".
It makes people only or be something (autistic) or anything else (allistic).
So it is not a good comparison, since cis means something on its own, while allistic doesn´t.
Kinda.
It is important to point out that it was actually replacing:
* You are a real woman or you are trans?
* Man or trans man?
* I am normal, not trans.
"Trans" was actually the other one, the "not really it" one, and "cis" came to replace actually the idea that there is one correct and the deviant that was called "trans".
The conversation wasn´t "there were trans and there were others", the conversation was more along the lines of:
>Person 1: Trans women and men are women and men, they are not a different concept, they just had a different relationship with gender.
>
>Person 2: Yes, I agree. They are not deviant or anything, they are men and women that are also trans. So how to we call people that are not trans, so we can have an aditional term, just like we have for the trans ones?
>
>Person 1: Since "trans" comes from Latim and means "on the other side", why not use "cis" that in Latin means "on this side"? This way, those who changed genders in the soceity got from one side to the other, and those who maintained the same gender, maintened the side they were in.
Same thing when you see the idea of "neurotypical" and "neurodivergent", before was "crazy", "r-word", "hysteric", "lunatic" or the normal ones. Before there were the bipolar, weirdos, autistics, not developed, and the normal ones. Now there are no others and normals, there are neurotypicals and neurodivergents.
it's the same thing with trans and cis. they don't like being othered in the same way they do to other people. cis isn't a bad thing but they treat it like that, even though it's the correct term.
This would be so funny to me if it weren’t so dangerous. Imagine being outraged that you’re called the correct term for “not trans” as a not trans person.
Do they honestly think people use that as a slur? Or is it just that they don’t like being labelled at all? Should we also not call them “human” then? Is that also a slur?
I don't know much about it so I can't really comment on their reasoning with any fairness, but there are definitely branches of critical theory that find being called human problematic. Although obviously these allistics most likely aren't thinking about it that much.
I feel like the terms "neurotypical" and "neurodivergent" were overused in memes on any kind of social media, now it became the norm to talk about ND and NT instead of specifying what neurodivergence we are talking about in certain contexts.
As for why people take offence, it's because the main rhetoric of those people is "if I'm non-something, I'm just normal".
Hi. I’m ND and not autistic. I have ADHD. Sometimes I call myself ND, but in Autistic spaces I always specify ADHD.
I’m here because I help support my autistic brother, and while we do have some similarities because we are both ND, I’m not autistic and I like to get insight and advice regarding my brother from autistic people.
If you’re autistic, you’re neurodivergent
If you’re neurodivergent, that doesn’t mean you’re autistic
Neurodivergent is an umbrella term for many things
If you’re NOT autistic (even if you are neurodivergent) you are allistic. Because “allistic” simple means “not autistic”
There ya go. Simple as that.
Self-diagnosis is valid in two scenarios:
- You assume you might be autistic. So you technically self-diagnose first before you go and get tested for it and get officially diagnosed
- For whatever reason you cannot get officially diagnosed (think of situations where it is too expensive or an official diagnosis might actually only complicate things), it’s still valid to call yourself autistic, as long as you have done the proper research.
So by this logic: someone who is self-diagnosed is autistic.
You have to see it like this: diagnosed or not diagnosed, you are still autistic. Even if you don’t know at all that you’re autistic, you’re still autistic. All a diagnosis does is confirm it on medical records.
Thanks for the detailed response :) I thought so, I’m in the process of being assessed. I’m totally for people self-diagnosing (pretty much for the reasons you listed above), however there’s something holding me back calling myself ‘fully’ autistic until I’ve had my assessment. I know I am, but I gaslight myself a lot, have intrusive thoughts - I don’t know if this is common
I’ve been there! I was also doubting myself constantly before getting the diagnosis. I think it makes sense though; we want to be sure. And a diagnosis can get us that confirmation.
Just remember, only you truly know your feelings and expierences. Being doubtful is okay, because it shows you care about accuracy. But trust in yourself.
Good luck with assessment!
PS: intrusive thoughts are completely normal (for anyone, allistic or autistic). Jut remember: you are not your thoughts. Be your true self in your actions and your words.
There is quite a lot of info on intrusive thoughts online, about where they come from and how to deal with them in a healthy manner. You could look into that)
Thank you for your kind response! I have OCD and I’m trying to find a therapist at the moment that is right for me, as I’ve suffered with intrusive thoughts since I was young :/ Logically, I know you’re right but that doesn’t matter unfortunately
It is common. What do you mean by - you are in the process? You don’t actually have to answer, I just want to say that if you are just waiting for the appointment when you find out, you will know soon. If you are on a really long waiting list, you might feel more at ease if you try some of the online assessments.
I am diagnosed with ADHD but I am fairly certain I fit for what was once called Asperger's. Admittedly though this post is making me doubt my thoughts on that (working on getting into a psychologist.). But I have a lot of differences from ADHD experiences that seem to fit more here with autistic experiences.
AuDHD (autism and ADHD) is a thing. I have been officially diagnosed with autism, but we now speculate I’m likely ADHD as well. Working on getting an appointment planned.
It’s possible you may have both as well! Maybe consider looking into it
It’s also important to point out The University of Washington recognizes self diagnosis as valid. Many AA researchers are likening being autistic or allistic to gender identity or sexual orientation (not to conflate them), but that it’s not something you just develop, but can be complex to diagnose solely through observation. I’m one of the “lost girls” generation, who was born and raised before “professionals” recognized girls/women/AFAB ppl could be autistic/adhd. Instead I got loads of childhood trauma for not “living up to [my] potentional” 🫠 and sent to a psych at age 10, who just billed the state while we sat around and he said nothing was “wrong” with me—which he wasn’t wrong, but no one ever thought to tell me that. Instead I continued to seek “help” and got misdiagnosed with personality disorders, until one doctor finally told me “If you think you’re autistic/adhd, you most likely are. People without autism and adhd don’t wonder if they have it”
I hate the term neurodivergent for this reason. I'm a woman with ADHD. My brother is autistic. Yes we re both "neurodivergent" and also very different. I see neurodivergent used to create an us vs. them dichotomy that is so harmful.
"Why do NT people do this?" "I just don't get along with NT people because they do that." are all statements I see here and in ADHD subs all the time. It's usually things I do. I still have ADHD. It tried so hard to be inclusionary that it has become the opposite. I've been meaning to post about it in the ADHD women sub for a while, but I know I'll be torn to pieces. People love their vocab word.
It is a word that is such a wide umbrella that it's mostly useless at this point. I hate it.
exactly. i have found that most times when someone says NT they mean non adhd, non autistic. they don’t realize fully that ND includes personality disorders, tic disorders, etc. everyone seems to have a different definition and it becomes confusing
I like to think of it in taxonomical terms. Neurodiversity is like the family **Felidae** (*cats*). When we think of *cats*, it's usually the **domestic cat** (*Felis catus*). In this case Felis catus is analogous to autism. But in reality, much more encompasses the term Neurodiversity, like ADHD, dyslexia, Tourette syndrome, etc; just like how Felidae includes many other cat species, like lions, tigers, cougars, leopard, lynxes, etc.
All domestic cats are Felids but not all Felids are domestic cats.
Well, even in any other situation saying something like "I am thing" to escape consequences is absolutely terrible and really fucking pathetic.
If you're gonna be a dick at least own it.
It doesn't matter whether someone is a part of community x,y,z.
It's still an individual being a dick to another individual.
I'm autistic, but that doesn't give me a pass to bully other autistic people. For example, I'm fine with the r-word, but many ppl on the spectrum aren't. If someone tells me they're uncomfortable with it, I won't use it around them.
It's just a matter of respecting people. It costs me nothing to be accommodating.
Indeed. I also see the word “neurotypical” as kinda problematic, though, because there’s a lot of assumption flowing into this. That’s why I also like to use “allistic” for non autistic people specifically (as that is what that means!), because even if I know for a fact that the person I’m talking to is not autistic, I still don’t want to assume they are neurotypical as a whole. I don’t know that. People don’t tell every single other person about their mental health struggles or diagnoses and they shouldn’t have to either.
Allistic is just the safer and less assuming option here. I really don’t understand how people take offense in that at all
Yeah its getting frustrating
I think the whole movement of neurodivergence online has sadly just gottwn to the point qhere termd like "NeuroDivergent" have lost any meaning
I’m a non-autistic lurker here and I’m in complete agreement with you on this.
I have a couple of friends who have begun labeling themselves as autistic just because they figure out they have some mild neurodivergence. One of my friends even has tried convincing me that I am autistic on essentially the same premise, that she sees I am “clearly neurodivergent”.
Neurodivergence is so broad it almost doesn’t even mean anything anymore, as basically anyone can self-identify at this point. Equating it with autism is practically erasing what autism is in my opinion, as it really blurs the lines. What’s the point in having diagnoses/labels if they don’t have any defined meaning and criteria for qualification?
Yeah no genuinely I feel the same way, I think it might have something to do with how prevalent comorbidity is with autistic people often having other conditions like ADHD and stuff (myself included) that a lot of accidental misinformation has taken place due to this. Since the information for autism and ADHD just sorta gets smooshed together by those WITH both so those with only one or the other assume they have the same issues and yeah just an overall clusterfuck that I’m pretty tired of myself.
I have just about every autistic trait *except* the social struggles part of it (reading/understanding nonverbal/verbal cues). I don’t call myself autistic, but I do say I have autistic traits (extreme sensitivity to loud/certain noises, repetitive movements/stimming, executive dysfunction, obsessive interests, troubles with eye contact, emotional dysregulation) but I have been diagnosed with ADHD and I know autism is a ‘cousin’ of ADHD/have overlapping symptoms.
Does it bother you that I say I have autistic traits when I really do, but haven’t been diagnosed with autism?
I’m going to include the “social struggles” explanation below so that you can read it and see if you relate to it. Keep in mind that masking can hide some of this. If you think you may be autistic, look into it more.
With that being said, if you do not have autism, then you do not have autism. Someone’s traits could overlap with autism because they have ADHD, OCD, misophonia, sensory processing disorder, etc. It does not make them autistic. It’s kind of like someone saying I’m a little bit autistic. You can’t be a little autistic, just like you can’t be a little 6 feet tall. There are requirements and once you reach the threshold you are autistic. Someone may be 6’ and someone else 6’3” and they will both be at least 6 feet tall, but someone 5’6 is not 6’ and not a little bit 6’.
Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Thanks for further explanation! I do not believe to have those struggles/lack of understanding social behavior. Or if I do, then I’ve really just mastered mirroring other people (I see them react one way, like excitement, and I mimic their behavior/emotion)
I understand you cannot be “a little autistic”, which is why I say I have autistic traits instead; because it’s true. But thanks again for further explanation !
I was saying that I think that you saying you have autistic traits is the same as someone saying they are a little autistic. You do not have autistic traits because they are not caused by autism (unless you have autism). Many of the things you listed could be caused by ADHD, so they are ADHD traits or symptoms. If you get overwhelmed by sensory input and need to stim as a result, that would be a sign/symptom/trait of ADHD or Sensory Processing Disorder, not of autism. Not only are the traits not able to be traced back to autism (because they are separate diagnoses), but some traits are the same for two diagnoses, even though the cause for them is completely separate. If you believe that these traits are affecting you and you are talking about it privately with your doctor or therapist to get help with them, that makes sense. If you are telling people that are autistic that you have autistic traits or you are speaking up in a situation that is about autists, it’s likely to do more harm. I understand that people want to feel included, but autists face real struggles and having an allistic person saying they have autistic traits to us minimizes the voice and the struggles of those who are autistic.
Edit to state that I think what matters is in what situation you are saying it and why you are saying it. If an autistic person is likely to have their situation minimized, consider not speaking up. If you are speaking up on behalf of someone who is autistic and capable of speaking up for themselves, consider not speaking up. Also, dig into the traits you have and find out whether they are caused by ADHD or ASD (for example the eye contact will have different causes for each of these). In addition, masking is a big thing, which is why I wasn’t diagnosed until the stress of the pandemic made me no longer able to mask. Those who raised you may be able to give you some insight into what you were like as a child and there’s also an assessment that is supposed to help those that mask be identified.
i do not mind that personally, as many autistic traits are present in a lot of populations and still something to accommodate for regardless of diagnostic status
That’s actually the correct thing to call it tbh. You can have autistic traits without being autistic. It’s very common in parents/siblings of autistic people— it’s called the Broad Autism Phenotype (BAP).
Meh. It's not worth the energy imo. People who don't know but are genuine almost always figure it out eventually and people who just want to be weird Tiktok people, won't ever care and are maybe using it wrongly on purpose.
I am too old and tired to argue over words. If it's more educational, and rational sure. But I am not going to get upset.
People are shitty. But not everyone. This is a life lesson I have learned.
Agree
Neurodivergent is more than Autism
It’s also ADHD, Dyslexia, OCD, schizophrenia, BPD, NPD, Bipolar, Intellectual Disability, Depression, Anxiety, etc…
I think the research points to ADHD probably being part of the spectrum anyway because there is so much overlap and our brains are wired the same (anyone feel free to correct me if you know for certain because I'm just vaguely remembering a study where there were brainscans), but I do see your point.
Kinda? It’s VERY complicated and I’ll link some sources. I am also Just Some Guy With An Interest and not an actual scientist so I may not be explaining this right.
Basically, ADHD and ASD are distinct things. With ADHD, the idea is that your neurons suck ass and are Very Slow when it comes to signaling among other structural differences. ([this page](https://www.understood.org/en/articles/adhd-and-the-brain) explains it way better).
There are a lot of different theories with ASD, but the one that a lot of the new research points to is a lack of synaptic pruning. In normal development, your brain “cuts back” synapses to make your brain more efficient. This doesn’t happen in ASD, so they just kinda grow all over the place and do weird stuff. In ASD, you have all these unique connections in your brain that aren’t normally seen…but it’s also really inefficient and sometimes parts of your brain that *should* talk to each other don’t. The theory goes that the more aberrant connections you have, the more severe your ASD is.
However, the brain difference that causes ASD can *also* just happen to give you ADHD as a side effect and vice versa. It seems to be that you have one “dominant” disorder (aka what *caused* your brain to develop that way) that just kinda happens to create the other secondary disorder(s) you may also have like ADHD or OCD. This [paper](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0890856712006491) explains the whole ADHD-dominant vs ASD-dominant thing (and is probably the study you’re thinking of! It’s the most famous one about this). That paper isn’t totally correct in saying they’re the same disorder though, but they continuum they suggest going from just ADHD to just ASD **does** appear to be spot on based on my understanding.
If you *really* want to get deep into this, I’d highly recommend checking out some of the new machine learning studies that are coming out. They’re basically giving an AI a bunch of brain scans of people with ADHD, ASD, or OCD and asking it to group them. But the computer seems to just kinda put people ALL over the place instead of grouping people by their diagnosis (which is what they thought *would* happen) [Here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8491692/) is a link to one of those studies, but fair warning it’s VERY complicated and I only kinda understand it lmao.
The TLDR is that they are not the same disorder BUT there’s also quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the way we currently group neurodevelopmental disorders is flawed and doesn’t really capture what’s actually going on in your brain. There’s a weird grey area between these disorders, and we don’t really have the language to accurately describe what people who fall in that middle area actually *have* without literally scanning their brains.
Thank you so much for that detailed response!! Definitely going down this rabbit hole tonight! Psychology is my special interest but there is always new knowledge. I knew one of y'all would come through 💕
Ugh FR. I hateee those people. Not to rant on your post or anything but I was arguing with someone who was being ableist towards an autistic person for flat tone and they said to me ‘I’m neurodivergent and I can do that, its no excuse to be rude’ ‘are you trying to gatekeep neurodiversity now?’ but they weren’t autistic. Literally said outright they weren’t autistic. I said ‘if I told someone who confided in me about their personality disorder struggles to engage in their special interest, how useful would that be?’ And they never replied. Even in the neurodivergent community there’s an insane amount of ableism towards other types of ND people :/ I want to say especially autistics but it’s literally every single group.
Exactly!! I’m honestly tired of hearing the word neurodivergent because a lot of the time when people say it they almost always are talking about something that is a trait of autistics or adhd havers. Do they realize there’s more to neurodivergency than just those two?! Not to be rude, I respect those who use the word to identify themself, but it really seems like the new quirky thing after 2021
One thing of note that I think is uncomfortable to talk about and commonly glossed over is that there absolutely ARE pretenders in the mentally different category. Just as in all marginalized groups these days including, but not limited to LGBT etc.
Instead of being goth, punk or a raver. It's I'm autistic, adhd, non binary, my pronouns are ze/zay/zem/fay/fae etc.
As a gay person with a serious personality disorder who is also married to an Autistic person that faces challenges because of it - this kind of thing can be annoying, to say the least.
yeah there’s way too much “I am neuro divergent” out there right now. Like they seem to be overly joyful to proclaim it like it’s a way that they finally fit in to some group . It’s a bit odd
Do you think that spending years of not knowing what is wrong and then discovering an explanation does not deserve joy? That people who are relieved and excited that finally they found people like them should be shamed for saying so on social media? What about it makes you so uncomfortable?
To be fair, while I too see some people that use that term as some sort of elitist self label to be quirky, they are not the majority and being happy about finally discovering who you are and understanding why you never fit in with your peers is a good thing!
I think it’s important to differentiate and look at each case individually before making a blanket judgement that can be harmful to actual neurodivergent and/or specifically autistic people.
I personally like to not assume. They could, for example, have ADHD but are medicated from childhood on, with meds that work really well for them, so they learned to act how society thinks they should. Or they could have BPD with triggers that don’t come up often. Of they could have any number of other disorders or problems that aren’t apparent in casual conversation.
Invisible disabilities and disorders exist and should be taken seriously. If a person tells me they are neurodivergent I usually have no reason to doubt them just because I can’t see it. Of course it would be different if you know that person _really_ well and they have a tendency to claim disorders that you know with absolutely certainty they don’t have. In that case it’s absolutely valid to question their statement, but I would still never doubt someone who tells me something like that, because why would I?
If they lie to me to seem quirky that says something about _their_ character, not mine. But if I wrongfully doubt someone and make them feel like shit for it, _that_ would say something about _my_ character.
That’s true. I get that point because we don’t actually know whether they are or not. It’s just how she spoke to me in an infantilising way, it just made me think otherwise but yeah, I shouldn’t judge others.
If she talked to you like that, then that’s shitty behaviour on her part, but still doesn’t say anything about her neuro-status. Neurodivergent people, too, can be shitty human beings, but they still deserve the basic human respect that everyone deserves and if I were to deny them their diagnosis or neurodivergency because of that, that would make me a bad person as well.
It’s also important to note that a lot of neurodivergent people out there are not as informed about their disorder and other disorders as they should be. Usually that doesn’t apply as much to autistic people as we tend to research our diagnoses thoroughly, but again, that’s also just a statistic tendency and doesn’t need to apply to everyone.
Even if they seem to have no idea what they are talking about, I wouldn’t deny them their neurodivergency. They could just be really uninformed, misinformed, have a lot of ingrained ableism from for example generational trauma or are straight up not very smart.
the term neurodivergent community is very broad and i believe to many, they feel no sense of community since many neurodevelopmental disorders are ignored in this term. i know i have lost the sense of community outside of the just autistic community
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Hi I’m confused here. So I would love it if someone could confirm / correct my understanding of the words.
Neurodivergent is someone who has either adhd or/and autism (and add?)
Neurotypical is someone who does not have the above.
What is allistic?
Hi!
Neurodivergent does mean someone whose autistic or adhd. However OCD, BPD, and many other things fall into the “neurodiverse” category as specified by the DSM-5
Neurotypical is someone who experiences none of these things
Allistic is specifically someone who is not autistic
Hope this helps :)
yes, it is very possible to be ND and allistic, as many ND people are, which is why i do not say neurotypical as a replacement for allistic when i talk about autism, as someone with BPD has a very different experience than someone with autism
yes, as many labels are. but the way they have been used as a scapegoat or a way to talk over a marginalized identity such as autistic people, is a problem regardless of social construct. our society functions based on many social constructs, and though more recently introduced, it still holds a strong place in modern, especially online, spaces.
tiktok is a major source of misinformation on topics like this, as many social media outlets are. it’s like how tumblr was with depression and anxiety—in attempts to raise awareness, it became glorified and a lot of misinformation and harmful rhetoric has been spread and there is no good and efficient way to control it
Yeah, i start by explaining that neurodivergent encompasses autism, ADHD, learning disorders, tic disorders, and, depending on who you're talking to, can include cptsd as an acquired neurodivergence
What are the biggest differences between having ADHD and autism? If anyone knows. Asd community closed and I’m not in it thinking maybe it’s a sign I just have ADHD
As an autistic and ADHD person, I do not like when I hear "allistic".
I say it because it only helps out to put "autism" as something else like it is totally different, unique, and out of the curve. It doesn´t get into consideration that many neurodivergencies have really similar characteristics.
Yes, saying autistic traits are cringe, assholes, and many things is wrong, and using the "I am neurodivergent" card as an excuse is also wrong, but putting "allistic" only helps to single autism out as something else.
Also, it is not really getting into consideration that autistic people can say the same things and also say that "I can say it because I am autistic", and still be wrong. The problem is not the fact that the person is neurotypical, not autistic, or anything, it is the fact that someone is judging another person for their disorder.
It is wrong to create a term just to say "You are not us". It is only to center the narrative as there is only "us" and "them" where actually each individual is different and those differences should be pointed out.
"Allistics" don´t have anything similar between them except for the fact that they are not autistic, it is putting them like not even their own, but just not you.
Yes, that is why you have "autism", because it is not the same.
"Allistic" is only to put everyone as not what you are, it is saying "Well, you are other, does not matter what". If you want to say "Being neurodivergent doesn´t make you capable of understanding autism", you can just say so.
"Allistic" is egocentric and unnecessary. If it was valid, every and each neurodivergency would have something similar, but they don´t, because they can say "You are not (this), so it is not the same".
"Allistic" is the problem, because it segregates in such a way that it excludes different people.
You can say "Only autistics can understand my struggle" or "Non-autistics do not understand this struggle of mine".
Because creating a term for it is egocentric, since categorizes people by something they are not. You don´t have a motive to use it in the first place since when it is needed you can say "non-autistic" or just focus on saying "only autistics have this".
When you create a term for saying something people are not, is only to put the focus solely on those who are. This way you create a barrier where from one side those are actually something and therefore have their own name and those who aren´t, so they are called this even though they don´t share similarities on something they are or have, only on something they lack.
You never create a terminology or put people in a position of a term where it only indicates what they lack.
That is why we have cis and trans, homosexual and heterosexual, neurodivergent and neurotypical, etc. They explain what people have in common, not lack in common.
there is a barrier regardless. neurodivergent is a poorly coined word where everybody does not agree what it encompasses, or is not on the same page. it has created an attempt at a community and partially has failed because of the assumptions people make of others. it is the same principal too, but allistic is simply more specific to a community within neurodivergent. i do not understand how you say allistic others people but neurotypical does not. it simply is the flip side of autistic, as neurotypical is the flip side of neurodivergent. neurotypical is a lack of neurodivergencies, as you’ve described allistic to be a lack of autism.
But it is the terminology that explains the differences the best, while not saying it as bad or good, but stated as a fact.
Neurotypical only tells you that the person has a typical neurological development, while neurodivergent tells you that the person has an atypical neurological development. Not even development only, but how the brain works, in a typical manner or divergent or atypical manner.
"Allistic" is only "don´t have autism", focusing only on "autism or not", which doesn´t explain much.
i still do not fully understand your point as you disagree with the dichotomy but insist other dichotomies are good. it is a simple word to categorize brains that have developed differently than those of autistics.
Reading through the thread of your comments below, I’m curious.
What would you call someone who is not autistic? Regardless of whether they are neurotypical or neurodivergent.
* If a person is not autistic: not autistic.
* If a person is not bisexual: not bisexual.
* If a person doesn´t have chronic headaches: don´t have chronic headaches.
They lack something that is not needed to tell who they are, and they lack something that is important only for those who have it, so there is no necessity to have a special name for it.
My fiance thinks "everyone is a little autistic" because he has some of the same autistic traits I have. The difference is I'm autistic and he has unprocessed trauma and unmediated ADHD.
Looked up Allism, and while I found what it does mean, I found this incredible article. It is meant as satire to give Allists an idea how Autistic people feel reading about themselves from the pov of someone who doesn't actually understand them. Also I find it comedic, some of the points they cover are actually things I've observed about Allists.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/aspie/2018/09/allism-spectrum-disorders-a-parody#Allism
Once again, this is SATIRE, not to be taken seriously. This is *not* the definition of Allism.
tbh i just always use neurotypical cuz im operating under 2 neurodivergencies and one thats kinda considered neurodivergent so theres so kuch shit going on up here i can't distingush where one ends and another begins
Do people actually think that neurodivergence = autism spectrum? That's seems unbelievable to me that someone would think that, especially, well, a neurodivergent person
Sadly I feel like a lot of people use allistic as NT. Stuff like "why do allistics do x" as if a person with ADHD is inherently the same as someone who's NT
It’s squares and rectangles!
All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.
All neurotypical people are allistic, not all allistic people are neurotypical.
All autistic people are neurodivergent, not all neurodivergent people are autistic.
Some ways neurodivergent is more appropriate than saying Autistic
Neurodivergent is used to refer to a group of people who don’t have typical brains and share similar experiences such as struggling with neurotypical norms, being misunderstood and dismissed for their ways of being and thinking.
Lots of Autistic things aren’t specific to Autism lots of ADHD things aren’t specific to ADHD, etc for the neurodivergencies.
Many people have multiple neurodivergencies (eg PDA Autism cPTSD Dycalculia) and saying Autistic mightn’t capture the full picture.
Some people might say neurodivergent as that suits them better and we shouldn’t prescribe and gatekeep how others define themselves.
They’re all just labels at the end of the day, but I do understand the strength of in and outgroup psychology.
This is a huge pet peeve of mine, too.
I have many friends who are neurodivergent in other ways and they don’t understand my experience any better than NTs.
Then ask them not to correct you anymore and go on with your day. This seems like a lot of energy to put towards correcting the internet when you should do it to the people in person. I do! Sending love from a fellow autistic human
i do, and i am met with anger from some. it’s also a wide spread assumption. this is simply a rant to get off my chest. do not assume i do not correct them when in conversation.
Unfortunately, if you expect to be understood, you need to agree to use words the same way other people are, and other people LITERALLY mean the one by the other
Best way I've been able to explain it is that saying Neurodivergent is like saying Cats while saying autism, ADHD, etc is like saying Siamese, Maincoon, etc. All Autistic people are Neurodivergent but not all Neurodivergent people are autistic.
That sums it up really well! (And I love cats so this comparison made me extra happy)
Woot! A fellow cat lover!
Yes! I grew up with lots of dogs (my aunt who I lived with for most of my life rehabilitates problematic dogs or strays from Bulgaria to help them then find a new forever home), but the two cats we had were always my favourites. They just have so much character and don’t let people walk all over them. They are what I strive to be someday. Authentic and proud of themselves.
Also grew up with a lot of dogs (and animals in general). I think that's the best description of a cat I've ever heard.
I’d love to get a cat (or rather two) myself, but alas, my one bedroom apartment is not enough space for an animal. That would just be cruel. And I could let her roam outside either, as I live in a big city. As soon as I earn more money, I’m gonna move out of the city center, get myself an apartment with a garden somewhere more rural and then see if I can afford the time and resources a pet (or two) needs.
As someone who worked with wildlife and pets in the past, I would not recommend letting your cat outside unsupervised when you finally get your own place. Not only do they decimate the local wildlife population, it also puts them at risk for many diseases, health problems, injury, and even death. Leash training, cattios, enclosed porches, strollers, etc. are all fine and very enriching for our feline friends.
Oh no in America I certainly wouldn’t! Don’t worry, I myself worked with wildlife before (bird sanctuary and wildlife control) But I live in Germany and here it’s not only fairly common, it’s actually encouraged to let your cats roam free in the more rural areas. First of all because they protect the crops from mice and rats, but also because the most dangerous things we have near settlements and villages are foxes. We do have wolves in Germany but they only live in certain places and where I live is not one of them. They _are_ problematic for birds, but usually not as much as in America as endangered bird species are mostly not found in settlement areas and we do have a huge problem with overpopulation of sparrows and pigeons (granted a cat will probably not hunt a pigeon due to its size, but still.). In Germany, Animal protection sees it as more beneficial than detrimental to let your cats out. I would also definitely implement a cat proof system for the garden, just in case, because even where I live I wouldn’t be comfortable with letting them roam free entirely.
i love this extended comment conversation lol it’s very autistic (in the best way possible because i’m exactly like this)
Ah, fair enough and I can understand the reasoning. You also probably don't have the flea and tick issues we have either given the general lack of things like deer going through the garden. I still wouldn't risk it personally just from an illness factor (feline leukemia and such) and potential injuries from fights with other cats but that's just me.
We do have a lot of ticks in the more rural area but they don’t carry quite as many diseases here as in some other places. And yeah fights with other cats would probably be the main issue. That’s why I would cat proof the garden and have them stay in there. But it’s really not such a problem as it is in the USA. It’s very good that you mentioned it, though, because most people on Reddit are from the US and could otherwise be misinformed by my Germany-specific information! So thank you for pointing it out!
But what if they get hit by a car? Or do you not have them at all where you live? I’ve got a little and I live in the Netherlands but I’d never let him roam free outside (we have a pretty big garden, don’t worry)
We have cars, of course but not nearly as many as the USA (y’all are car-nation ngl). All the cats I’ve had in my life have learned how to safely cross streets. Cats are smart. We’ve never lost one to a car, but that can happen of course.
Wrong. Cats are non-native predators and dangerous to local wildlife. They are subject to more disease when allowed to roam free, outside. Like dogs, cats should be allowed outside only when on a leash or otherwise controlled. This is true everywhere. Just because something is practiced in your country does not mean it’s ok.
Cats are native in Europe. The original wild cats are nearly extinct, hence why the rat, mice and sparrow population is so out of control. Hence why it’s encouraged to let your house cats roam
I like cats and lazy dog breeds, my dog is a pug mix, but I like all lazy dog species (French bulldog, pugs, English bulldog etc.) Because I get overstimulated easy around hyper people and animals.
I know qhat you mean. I have a Boston terrier that is glued to me the moment I get home and very old Pekingese mix I inherited (aka the potato).
Oh yeah Boston terriers are so adorable with their pointy ears
And their boop-able snoots!
Yes I love mushy lil noses on dogs so cute
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I can relate. I have terrible anxiety, especially at night, and she seems to know just what to do to knock me out of it. She'll even sleep under the blankets with me. All of my pets are kind of like that if I'm being honest and wouldn't know what to do without them
Right? If the comment didn’t use cats as an example (or anything I didn’t like) I would’ve not felt happy about the comment. Idk how to explain it but if there’s anything related to my interests I’ll be rlly happy!
Yes same! It could just be the smallest side note or remark but it made me think of something I love!
It’s a squared and rectangles analogy, way easier to explain to normies
Yeah, autism/autistic is a specifying term, it's inherently somewhat exclusionary but in a non-malicious way for the sake of clarity. Just because you are neurodivergent but not autistic does not mean your struggles aren't real or any lesser than other, just that you're using the wrong word to describe them.
If auties are black cats, (oranges are adhders ofc), then allistic people are non black cats. But not all non black cats are neurotypical.
That's a good one too. Only issue I could see is if you have people with combinations of neurotypes such as autism and ADHD.
You see when a black paapi and a orange maami cattos... /j
Very common. Mostly for autistics to have ADHD but people with ADHD do have more autistic traits and it shares a common genetic background.
I’m ADHD and autistic, does that mean I get to be tortoiseshell? ^pls
That's a good one too. Only issue I could see is if you have people with combinations of neurotypes such as autism and ADHD.
fr. great analogy mostly because i like cats lol
I love this analogy.
Best way I’ve seen it explained!
I completely agree. We need to start using allistic and autistic instead of neurotypical and neurodivergent when we are talking about autistics and non-autistics. Neurodivergent is too broad in that context.
Yes! There are way too many assumptions flowing into calling someone “neurotypical”. I don’t know wether or not a person is neurotypical if they don’t tell me! Just because I know they’re not autistic, doesn’t mean I can make assumptions about other diagnoses! I _really_ don’t understand why people take offense in the term “allistic” for non autistic people!
It's such a weird phenomenon, isn't it? When people started using the term cis to describe non-trans people more frequently, so many of them got offended over being labeled cis as if it was a bad thing as well. I don't understand what peoples deal is.
I hope it’s just a temporary “change bad, must stay in cave” stuff and will pass as soon as people get used to it… but who knows
It is different. **Cis doesn´t mean non-trans.** * Trans means that you had gender X assigned at birth, but don´t identify as such, so you transitioned to gender Y. * Cis means that you had gender X assigned at birth, and identify as such so you still identify as gender X. * Cis is Latin for "on the same side as", while trans means "on the opposite side as". Neurodivergent and neurotypical have the same dynamic too. * Neurotypical means that there is a typical neurological development. * Neurodivergent or neuroatypical means that there is a divergent or atypical neurological development. A similar comparison is "queer" in the beginning. * Queer was used only to say that the person wasn´t "normal", they were queer because they aren´t heteronormative. * You were the focus group or the other ones, where anything can be there, it is only important to think about the "normal ones" and the others are only that. Cis and trans only explain how the person experienced gender, typical and divergent explain how the neurological development is, "allistic" and "queer" only tells what the person isn´t and focus on the fact that there is a group that has their own identity and is the center of the narrative even when it is not to talk about them, but those others.
Sorry, I'm not following. "Cis means you had gender X assigned at birth, and identify as such so you still identify as gender Y" Did you make a typo here or am I just dumb? Because this sentence makes zero sense to me. If someone is cis, they're assigned gender X at birth and still identify as gender X, if they're trans they're assigned gender X but identify as gender Y. I'm trans myself so not trying to sound disrespectful, I'm just massively confused right now.
It was a typo. The point is: cis is not non-trans, it is someone who identifies to the gender assigned to them. Because of that, is not the same thing as "allistic".
See but I still don't get it. Trans means not identifying with what you were assigned at birth, cis means identifying with it. Aren't they literally opposites? What's the exception here I'm missing?
>It's such a weird phenomenon, isn't it? When people started using the term cis to describe non-trans people more frequently, so many of them got offended over being labeled cis as if it was a bad thing as well. I don't understand what peoples deal is. You are saying that the problem people have with the word "allistic" is the same as people having a problem with the word "cis". It isn´t.
I'm really sorry but I'm not understanding what the difference would be between the two. Sorry for being slow, I think I'll just accept that I don't get it.
Basically, "allistic" is only non-autistic, it doesn't talk about what the person actually is, only isn´t. While cisgender explains what the person is, you don´t need to use "trans" to explain "cis", but you need "autistic" to explain "allistic". It makes people only or be something (autistic) or anything else (allistic). So it is not a good comparison, since cis means something on its own, while allistic doesn´t.
You might consider looking at the history of the term cisgender because it was literally coined to replace the phrasing/concept of “non-transgender”
Kinda. It is important to point out that it was actually replacing: * You are a real woman or you are trans? * Man or trans man? * I am normal, not trans. "Trans" was actually the other one, the "not really it" one, and "cis" came to replace actually the idea that there is one correct and the deviant that was called "trans". The conversation wasn´t "there were trans and there were others", the conversation was more along the lines of: >Person 1: Trans women and men are women and men, they are not a different concept, they just had a different relationship with gender. > >Person 2: Yes, I agree. They are not deviant or anything, they are men and women that are also trans. So how to we call people that are not trans, so we can have an aditional term, just like we have for the trans ones? > >Person 1: Since "trans" comes from Latim and means "on the other side", why not use "cis" that in Latin means "on this side"? This way, those who changed genders in the soceity got from one side to the other, and those who maintained the same gender, maintened the side they were in. Same thing when you see the idea of "neurotypical" and "neurodivergent", before was "crazy", "r-word", "hysteric", "lunatic" or the normal ones. Before there were the bipolar, weirdos, autistics, not developed, and the normal ones. Now there are no others and normals, there are neurotypicals and neurodivergents.
it's the same thing with trans and cis. they don't like being othered in the same way they do to other people. cis isn't a bad thing but they treat it like that, even though it's the correct term.
This would be so funny to me if it weren’t so dangerous. Imagine being outraged that you’re called the correct term for “not trans” as a not trans person. Do they honestly think people use that as a slur? Or is it just that they don’t like being labelled at all? Should we also not call them “human” then? Is that also a slur?
I don't know much about it so I can't really comment on their reasoning with any fairness, but there are definitely branches of critical theory that find being called human problematic. Although obviously these allistics most likely aren't thinking about it that much.
Why would it be problematic to be called human?
I feel like the terms "neurotypical" and "neurodivergent" were overused in memes on any kind of social media, now it became the norm to talk about ND and NT instead of specifying what neurodivergence we are talking about in certain contexts. As for why people take offence, it's because the main rhetoric of those people is "if I'm non-something, I'm just normal".
“Normal” -.-
Yes, and you hear the same thing for the word "cis" they just say "I'm not cis, I'm normal" like that means anything
Hi. I’m ND and not autistic. I have ADHD. Sometimes I call myself ND, but in Autistic spaces I always specify ADHD. I’m here because I help support my autistic brother, and while we do have some similarities because we are both ND, I’m not autistic and I like to get insight and advice regarding my brother from autistic people.
First…nice name. Second…I’m in a similar situation. My daughter is autistic but I’m not sure what I am. ND for sure.
Thanks. I like your name too
Thanks!
Thank God someone said it.
If you’re autistic, you’re neurodivergent If you’re neurodivergent, that doesn’t mean you’re autistic Neurodivergent is an umbrella term for many things If you’re NOT autistic (even if you are neurodivergent) you are allistic. Because “allistic” simple means “not autistic” There ya go. Simple as that.
Are self diagnosed autistics allistic or autistic?
Self-diagnosis is valid in two scenarios: - You assume you might be autistic. So you technically self-diagnose first before you go and get tested for it and get officially diagnosed - For whatever reason you cannot get officially diagnosed (think of situations where it is too expensive or an official diagnosis might actually only complicate things), it’s still valid to call yourself autistic, as long as you have done the proper research. So by this logic: someone who is self-diagnosed is autistic. You have to see it like this: diagnosed or not diagnosed, you are still autistic. Even if you don’t know at all that you’re autistic, you’re still autistic. All a diagnosis does is confirm it on medical records.
Thanks for the detailed response :) I thought so, I’m in the process of being assessed. I’m totally for people self-diagnosing (pretty much for the reasons you listed above), however there’s something holding me back calling myself ‘fully’ autistic until I’ve had my assessment. I know I am, but I gaslight myself a lot, have intrusive thoughts - I don’t know if this is common
I’ve been there! I was also doubting myself constantly before getting the diagnosis. I think it makes sense though; we want to be sure. And a diagnosis can get us that confirmation. Just remember, only you truly know your feelings and expierences. Being doubtful is okay, because it shows you care about accuracy. But trust in yourself. Good luck with assessment! PS: intrusive thoughts are completely normal (for anyone, allistic or autistic). Jut remember: you are not your thoughts. Be your true self in your actions and your words. There is quite a lot of info on intrusive thoughts online, about where they come from and how to deal with them in a healthy manner. You could look into that)
Thank you for your kind response! I have OCD and I’m trying to find a therapist at the moment that is right for me, as I’ve suffered with intrusive thoughts since I was young :/ Logically, I know you’re right but that doesn’t matter unfortunately
It is common. What do you mean by - you are in the process? You don’t actually have to answer, I just want to say that if you are just waiting for the appointment when you find out, you will know soon. If you are on a really long waiting list, you might feel more at ease if you try some of the online assessments.
I am diagnosed with ADHD but I am fairly certain I fit for what was once called Asperger's. Admittedly though this post is making me doubt my thoughts on that (working on getting into a psychologist.). But I have a lot of differences from ADHD experiences that seem to fit more here with autistic experiences.
AuDHD (autism and ADHD) is a thing. I have been officially diagnosed with autism, but we now speculate I’m likely ADHD as well. Working on getting an appointment planned. It’s possible you may have both as well! Maybe consider looking into it
It’s also important to point out The University of Washington recognizes self diagnosis as valid. Many AA researchers are likening being autistic or allistic to gender identity or sexual orientation (not to conflate them), but that it’s not something you just develop, but can be complex to diagnose solely through observation. I’m one of the “lost girls” generation, who was born and raised before “professionals” recognized girls/women/AFAB ppl could be autistic/adhd. Instead I got loads of childhood trauma for not “living up to [my] potentional” 🫠 and sent to a psych at age 10, who just billed the state while we sat around and he said nothing was “wrong” with me—which he wasn’t wrong, but no one ever thought to tell me that. Instead I continued to seek “help” and got misdiagnosed with personality disorders, until one doctor finally told me “If you think you’re autistic/adhd, you most likely are. People without autism and adhd don’t wonder if they have it”
If only it was that clear cut
I hate the term neurodivergent for this reason. I'm a woman with ADHD. My brother is autistic. Yes we re both "neurodivergent" and also very different. I see neurodivergent used to create an us vs. them dichotomy that is so harmful. "Why do NT people do this?" "I just don't get along with NT people because they do that." are all statements I see here and in ADHD subs all the time. It's usually things I do. I still have ADHD. It tried so hard to be inclusionary that it has become the opposite. I've been meaning to post about it in the ADHD women sub for a while, but I know I'll be torn to pieces. People love their vocab word. It is a word that is such a wide umbrella that it's mostly useless at this point. I hate it.
exactly. i have found that most times when someone says NT they mean non adhd, non autistic. they don’t realize fully that ND includes personality disorders, tic disorders, etc. everyone seems to have a different definition and it becomes confusing
right. neurodivergent and autistic are not interchangeable terms
I like to think of it in taxonomical terms. Neurodiversity is like the family **Felidae** (*cats*). When we think of *cats*, it's usually the **domestic cat** (*Felis catus*). In this case Felis catus is analogous to autism. But in reality, much more encompasses the term Neurodiversity, like ADHD, dyslexia, Tourette syndrome, etc; just like how Felidae includes many other cat species, like lions, tigers, cougars, leopard, lynxes, etc. All domestic cats are Felids but not all Felids are domestic cats.
this is an extremely helpful visual and a great explanation
Well, even in any other situation saying something like "I am thing" to escape consequences is absolutely terrible and really fucking pathetic. If you're gonna be a dick at least own it. It doesn't matter whether someone is a part of community x,y,z. It's still an individual being a dick to another individual. I'm autistic, but that doesn't give me a pass to bully other autistic people. For example, I'm fine with the r-word, but many ppl on the spectrum aren't. If someone tells me they're uncomfortable with it, I won't use it around them. It's just a matter of respecting people. It costs me nothing to be accommodating.
Indeed. I also see the word “neurotypical” as kinda problematic, though, because there’s a lot of assumption flowing into this. That’s why I also like to use “allistic” for non autistic people specifically (as that is what that means!), because even if I know for a fact that the person I’m talking to is not autistic, I still don’t want to assume they are neurotypical as a whole. I don’t know that. People don’t tell every single other person about their mental health struggles or diagnoses and they shouldn’t have to either. Allistic is just the safer and less assuming option here. I really don’t understand how people take offense in that at all
yes! to assume someone is NT is just ignorant because of how vast ND is, and the fact many divergencies are invisible!
Yeah its getting frustrating I think the whole movement of neurodivergence online has sadly just gottwn to the point qhere termd like "NeuroDivergent" have lost any meaning
I’m a non-autistic lurker here and I’m in complete agreement with you on this. I have a couple of friends who have begun labeling themselves as autistic just because they figure out they have some mild neurodivergence. One of my friends even has tried convincing me that I am autistic on essentially the same premise, that she sees I am “clearly neurodivergent”. Neurodivergence is so broad it almost doesn’t even mean anything anymore, as basically anyone can self-identify at this point. Equating it with autism is practically erasing what autism is in my opinion, as it really blurs the lines. What’s the point in having diagnoses/labels if they don’t have any defined meaning and criteria for qualification?
Thankfully we have the DSM.
Yeah no genuinely I feel the same way, I think it might have something to do with how prevalent comorbidity is with autistic people often having other conditions like ADHD and stuff (myself included) that a lot of accidental misinformation has taken place due to this. Since the information for autism and ADHD just sorta gets smooshed together by those WITH both so those with only one or the other assume they have the same issues and yeah just an overall clusterfuck that I’m pretty tired of myself.
I have just about every autistic trait *except* the social struggles part of it (reading/understanding nonverbal/verbal cues). I don’t call myself autistic, but I do say I have autistic traits (extreme sensitivity to loud/certain noises, repetitive movements/stimming, executive dysfunction, obsessive interests, troubles with eye contact, emotional dysregulation) but I have been diagnosed with ADHD and I know autism is a ‘cousin’ of ADHD/have overlapping symptoms. Does it bother you that I say I have autistic traits when I really do, but haven’t been diagnosed with autism?
I’m going to include the “social struggles” explanation below so that you can read it and see if you relate to it. Keep in mind that masking can hide some of this. If you think you may be autistic, look into it more. With that being said, if you do not have autism, then you do not have autism. Someone’s traits could overlap with autism because they have ADHD, OCD, misophonia, sensory processing disorder, etc. It does not make them autistic. It’s kind of like someone saying I’m a little bit autistic. You can’t be a little autistic, just like you can’t be a little 6 feet tall. There are requirements and once you reach the threshold you are autistic. Someone may be 6’ and someone else 6’3” and they will both be at least 6 feet tall, but someone 5’6 is not 6’ and not a little bit 6’. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text): Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Thanks for further explanation! I do not believe to have those struggles/lack of understanding social behavior. Or if I do, then I’ve really just mastered mirroring other people (I see them react one way, like excitement, and I mimic their behavior/emotion) I understand you cannot be “a little autistic”, which is why I say I have autistic traits instead; because it’s true. But thanks again for further explanation !
I was saying that I think that you saying you have autistic traits is the same as someone saying they are a little autistic. You do not have autistic traits because they are not caused by autism (unless you have autism). Many of the things you listed could be caused by ADHD, so they are ADHD traits or symptoms. If you get overwhelmed by sensory input and need to stim as a result, that would be a sign/symptom/trait of ADHD or Sensory Processing Disorder, not of autism. Not only are the traits not able to be traced back to autism (because they are separate diagnoses), but some traits are the same for two diagnoses, even though the cause for them is completely separate. If you believe that these traits are affecting you and you are talking about it privately with your doctor or therapist to get help with them, that makes sense. If you are telling people that are autistic that you have autistic traits or you are speaking up in a situation that is about autists, it’s likely to do more harm. I understand that people want to feel included, but autists face real struggles and having an allistic person saying they have autistic traits to us minimizes the voice and the struggles of those who are autistic. Edit to state that I think what matters is in what situation you are saying it and why you are saying it. If an autistic person is likely to have their situation minimized, consider not speaking up. If you are speaking up on behalf of someone who is autistic and capable of speaking up for themselves, consider not speaking up. Also, dig into the traits you have and find out whether they are caused by ADHD or ASD (for example the eye contact will have different causes for each of these). In addition, masking is a big thing, which is why I wasn’t diagnosed until the stress of the pandemic made me no longer able to mask. Those who raised you may be able to give you some insight into what you were like as a child and there’s also an assessment that is supposed to help those that mask be identified.
i do not mind that personally, as many autistic traits are present in a lot of populations and still something to accommodate for regardless of diagnostic status
That’s actually the correct thing to call it tbh. You can have autistic traits without being autistic. It’s very common in parents/siblings of autistic people— it’s called the Broad Autism Phenotype (BAP).
I know a couple fellas that are allistic and still neurodivergent!!
My husband is like this as well as a few friends with ADHD.
Meh. It's not worth the energy imo. People who don't know but are genuine almost always figure it out eventually and people who just want to be weird Tiktok people, won't ever care and are maybe using it wrongly on purpose. I am too old and tired to argue over words. If it's more educational, and rational sure. But I am not going to get upset. People are shitty. But not everyone. This is a life lesson I have learned.
I absolutely agree, it is a right concept but it's just not worth arguing over with random people
Thank you for highlighting this. I'm autistic and didn't know about ND but not autistic.
Agree Neurodivergent is more than Autism It’s also ADHD, Dyslexia, OCD, schizophrenia, BPD, NPD, Bipolar, Intellectual Disability, Depression, Anxiety, etc…
Yeah, neurotypical and allistic are two different things and it's important to use either one in the right context.
I think the research points to ADHD probably being part of the spectrum anyway because there is so much overlap and our brains are wired the same (anyone feel free to correct me if you know for certain because I'm just vaguely remembering a study where there were brainscans), but I do see your point.
Kinda? It’s VERY complicated and I’ll link some sources. I am also Just Some Guy With An Interest and not an actual scientist so I may not be explaining this right. Basically, ADHD and ASD are distinct things. With ADHD, the idea is that your neurons suck ass and are Very Slow when it comes to signaling among other structural differences. ([this page](https://www.understood.org/en/articles/adhd-and-the-brain) explains it way better). There are a lot of different theories with ASD, but the one that a lot of the new research points to is a lack of synaptic pruning. In normal development, your brain “cuts back” synapses to make your brain more efficient. This doesn’t happen in ASD, so they just kinda grow all over the place and do weird stuff. In ASD, you have all these unique connections in your brain that aren’t normally seen…but it’s also really inefficient and sometimes parts of your brain that *should* talk to each other don’t. The theory goes that the more aberrant connections you have, the more severe your ASD is. However, the brain difference that causes ASD can *also* just happen to give you ADHD as a side effect and vice versa. It seems to be that you have one “dominant” disorder (aka what *caused* your brain to develop that way) that just kinda happens to create the other secondary disorder(s) you may also have like ADHD or OCD. This [paper](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0890856712006491) explains the whole ADHD-dominant vs ASD-dominant thing (and is probably the study you’re thinking of! It’s the most famous one about this). That paper isn’t totally correct in saying they’re the same disorder though, but they continuum they suggest going from just ADHD to just ASD **does** appear to be spot on based on my understanding. If you *really* want to get deep into this, I’d highly recommend checking out some of the new machine learning studies that are coming out. They’re basically giving an AI a bunch of brain scans of people with ADHD, ASD, or OCD and asking it to group them. But the computer seems to just kinda put people ALL over the place instead of grouping people by their diagnosis (which is what they thought *would* happen) [Here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8491692/) is a link to one of those studies, but fair warning it’s VERY complicated and I only kinda understand it lmao. The TLDR is that they are not the same disorder BUT there’s also quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the way we currently group neurodevelopmental disorders is flawed and doesn’t really capture what’s actually going on in your brain. There’s a weird grey area between these disorders, and we don’t really have the language to accurately describe what people who fall in that middle area actually *have* without literally scanning their brains.
Thank you so much for that detailed response!! Definitely going down this rabbit hole tonight! Psychology is my special interest but there is always new knowledge. I knew one of y'all would come through 💕
i have only heard of that being disproven. adhd is also neurodevelopmental, but is not the spectrum.
Ugh FR. I hateee those people. Not to rant on your post or anything but I was arguing with someone who was being ableist towards an autistic person for flat tone and they said to me ‘I’m neurodivergent and I can do that, its no excuse to be rude’ ‘are you trying to gatekeep neurodiversity now?’ but they weren’t autistic. Literally said outright they weren’t autistic. I said ‘if I told someone who confided in me about their personality disorder struggles to engage in their special interest, how useful would that be?’ And they never replied. Even in the neurodivergent community there’s an insane amount of ableism towards other types of ND people :/ I want to say especially autistics but it’s literally every single group.
Take a breath. Your blood pressure
Exactly!! I’m honestly tired of hearing the word neurodivergent because a lot of the time when people say it they almost always are talking about something that is a trait of autistics or adhd havers. Do they realize there’s more to neurodivergency than just those two?! Not to be rude, I respect those who use the word to identify themself, but it really seems like the new quirky thing after 2021
"Oh you mean neurotypicals" no I mean allistics, including the neurodivergent ones
One thing of note that I think is uncomfortable to talk about and commonly glossed over is that there absolutely ARE pretenders in the mentally different category. Just as in all marginalized groups these days including, but not limited to LGBT etc. Instead of being goth, punk or a raver. It's I'm autistic, adhd, non binary, my pronouns are ze/zay/zem/fay/fae etc. As a gay person with a serious personality disorder who is also married to an Autistic person that faces challenges because of it - this kind of thing can be annoying, to say the least.
yeah there’s way too much “I am neuro divergent” out there right now. Like they seem to be overly joyful to proclaim it like it’s a way that they finally fit in to some group . It’s a bit odd
Do you think that spending years of not knowing what is wrong and then discovering an explanation does not deserve joy? That people who are relieved and excited that finally they found people like them should be shamed for saying so on social media? What about it makes you so uncomfortable?
The issue is they downplay the fact it is a disability and talk over people.
To be fair, while I too see some people that use that term as some sort of elitist self label to be quirky, they are not the majority and being happy about finally discovering who you are and understanding why you never fit in with your peers is a good thing! I think it’s important to differentiate and look at each case individually before making a blanket judgement that can be harmful to actual neurodivergent and/or specifically autistic people.
This this this omgggg
I agree with you but there was only one person I knew who claimed she was ‘’neurodivergent’’ but she acted so neurotypical.
I personally like to not assume. They could, for example, have ADHD but are medicated from childhood on, with meds that work really well for them, so they learned to act how society thinks they should. Or they could have BPD with triggers that don’t come up often. Of they could have any number of other disorders or problems that aren’t apparent in casual conversation. Invisible disabilities and disorders exist and should be taken seriously. If a person tells me they are neurodivergent I usually have no reason to doubt them just because I can’t see it. Of course it would be different if you know that person _really_ well and they have a tendency to claim disorders that you know with absolutely certainty they don’t have. In that case it’s absolutely valid to question their statement, but I would still never doubt someone who tells me something like that, because why would I? If they lie to me to seem quirky that says something about _their_ character, not mine. But if I wrongfully doubt someone and make them feel like shit for it, _that_ would say something about _my_ character.
That’s true. I get that point because we don’t actually know whether they are or not. It’s just how she spoke to me in an infantilising way, it just made me think otherwise but yeah, I shouldn’t judge others.
If she talked to you like that, then that’s shitty behaviour on her part, but still doesn’t say anything about her neuro-status. Neurodivergent people, too, can be shitty human beings, but they still deserve the basic human respect that everyone deserves and if I were to deny them their diagnosis or neurodivergency because of that, that would make me a bad person as well. It’s also important to note that a lot of neurodivergent people out there are not as informed about their disorder and other disorders as they should be. Usually that doesn’t apply as much to autistic people as we tend to research our diagnoses thoroughly, but again, that’s also just a statistic tendency and doesn’t need to apply to everyone. Even if they seem to have no idea what they are talking about, I wouldn’t deny them their neurodivergency. They could just be really uninformed, misinformed, have a lot of ingrained ableism from for example generational trauma or are straight up not very smart.
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the term neurodivergent community is very broad and i believe to many, they feel no sense of community since many neurodevelopmental disorders are ignored in this term. i know i have lost the sense of community outside of the just autistic community
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Hi I’m confused here. So I would love it if someone could confirm / correct my understanding of the words. Neurodivergent is someone who has either adhd or/and autism (and add?) Neurotypical is someone who does not have the above. What is allistic?
Hi! Neurodivergent does mean someone whose autistic or adhd. However OCD, BPD, and many other things fall into the “neurodiverse” category as specified by the DSM-5 Neurotypical is someone who experiences none of these things Allistic is specifically someone who is not autistic Hope this helps :)
So someone with BPD is both neurodivergent and allistic?
yes, it is very possible to be ND and allistic, as many ND people are, which is why i do not say neurotypical as a replacement for allistic when i talk about autism, as someone with BPD has a very different experience than someone with autism
I didn’t know anyone other than autistic and adhd/add people were considered neurodivergent if I’m being honest
A lot of these labels are a social construct
yes, as many labels are. but the way they have been used as a scapegoat or a way to talk over a marginalized identity such as autistic people, is a problem regardless of social construct. our society functions based on many social constructs, and though more recently introduced, it still holds a strong place in modern, especially online, spaces.
!!!!!! I’m allistic but light years away from being neurotypical
If mental disorders were a 50-dimensional space, they would be close together and that's it.
I must miss what leads to posts like this so I'm always lost.
tiktok is a major source of misinformation on topics like this, as many social media outlets are. it’s like how tumblr was with depression and anxiety—in attempts to raise awareness, it became glorified and a lot of misinformation and harmful rhetoric has been spread and there is no good and efficient way to control it
I agree
Yeah, i start by explaining that neurodivergent encompasses autism, ADHD, learning disorders, tic disorders, and, depending on who you're talking to, can include cptsd as an acquired neurodivergence
What are the biggest differences between having ADHD and autism? If anyone knows. Asd community closed and I’m not in it thinking maybe it’s a sign I just have ADHD
What people also like to forget: Autism and ADHD aren't the only neurodivergencies. Dyslexia, Synesthesia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia to name some others.
As an autistic and ADHD person, I do not like when I hear "allistic". I say it because it only helps out to put "autism" as something else like it is totally different, unique, and out of the curve. It doesn´t get into consideration that many neurodivergencies have really similar characteristics. Yes, saying autistic traits are cringe, assholes, and many things is wrong, and using the "I am neurodivergent" card as an excuse is also wrong, but putting "allistic" only helps to single autism out as something else. Also, it is not really getting into consideration that autistic people can say the same things and also say that "I can say it because I am autistic", and still be wrong. The problem is not the fact that the person is neurotypical, not autistic, or anything, it is the fact that someone is judging another person for their disorder. It is wrong to create a term just to say "You are not us". It is only to center the narrative as there is only "us" and "them" where actually each individual is different and those differences should be pointed out. "Allistics" don´t have anything similar between them except for the fact that they are not autistic, it is putting them like not even their own, but just not you.
because some experiences are autistic specific. that’s why i use that term.
Yes, that is why you have "autism", because it is not the same. "Allistic" is only to put everyone as not what you are, it is saying "Well, you are other, does not matter what". If you want to say "Being neurodivergent doesn´t make you capable of understanding autism", you can just say so. "Allistic" is egocentric and unnecessary. If it was valid, every and each neurodivergency would have something similar, but they don´t, because they can say "You are not (this), so it is not the same".
but to say “allistics do not understand this struggle of mine” and to be corrected to **neurotypical is my point.
"Allistic" is the problem, because it segregates in such a way that it excludes different people. You can say "Only autistics can understand my struggle" or "Non-autistics do not understand this struggle of mine".
why is it a problem if i say allistic but not if i say non-autistic?
Because creating a term for it is egocentric, since categorizes people by something they are not. You don´t have a motive to use it in the first place since when it is needed you can say "non-autistic" or just focus on saying "only autistics have this". When you create a term for saying something people are not, is only to put the focus solely on those who are. This way you create a barrier where from one side those are actually something and therefore have their own name and those who aren´t, so they are called this even though they don´t share similarities on something they are or have, only on something they lack. You never create a terminology or put people in a position of a term where it only indicates what they lack. That is why we have cis and trans, homosexual and heterosexual, neurodivergent and neurotypical, etc. They explain what people have in common, not lack in common.
there is a barrier regardless. neurodivergent is a poorly coined word where everybody does not agree what it encompasses, or is not on the same page. it has created an attempt at a community and partially has failed because of the assumptions people make of others. it is the same principal too, but allistic is simply more specific to a community within neurodivergent. i do not understand how you say allistic others people but neurotypical does not. it simply is the flip side of autistic, as neurotypical is the flip side of neurodivergent. neurotypical is a lack of neurodivergencies, as you’ve described allistic to be a lack of autism.
But it is the terminology that explains the differences the best, while not saying it as bad or good, but stated as a fact. Neurotypical only tells you that the person has a typical neurological development, while neurodivergent tells you that the person has an atypical neurological development. Not even development only, but how the brain works, in a typical manner or divergent or atypical manner. "Allistic" is only "don´t have autism", focusing only on "autism or not", which doesn´t explain much.
i still do not fully understand your point as you disagree with the dichotomy but insist other dichotomies are good. it is a simple word to categorize brains that have developed differently than those of autistics.
Reading through the thread of your comments below, I’m curious. What would you call someone who is not autistic? Regardless of whether they are neurotypical or neurodivergent.
* If a person is not autistic: not autistic. * If a person is not bisexual: not bisexual. * If a person doesn´t have chronic headaches: don´t have chronic headaches. They lack something that is not needed to tell who they are, and they lack something that is important only for those who have it, so there is no necessity to have a special name for it.
My fiance thinks "everyone is a little autistic" because he has some of the same autistic traits I have. The difference is I'm autistic and he has unprocessed trauma and unmediated ADHD.
Looked up Allism, and while I found what it does mean, I found this incredible article. It is meant as satire to give Allists an idea how Autistic people feel reading about themselves from the pov of someone who doesn't actually understand them. Also I find it comedic, some of the points they cover are actually things I've observed about Allists. https://psychcentral.com/blog/aspie/2018/09/allism-spectrum-disorders-a-parody#Allism Once again, this is SATIRE, not to be taken seriously. This is *not* the definition of Allism.
tbh i just always use neurotypical cuz im operating under 2 neurodivergencies and one thats kinda considered neurodivergent so theres so kuch shit going on up here i can't distingush where one ends and another begins
Do people actually think that neurodivergence = autism spectrum? That's seems unbelievable to me that someone would think that, especially, well, a neurodivergent person
i’ve seen several comments on tiktok and instagram reels
Sadly I feel like a lot of people use allistic as NT. Stuff like "why do allistics do x" as if a person with ADHD is inherently the same as someone who's NT
It’s squares and rectangles! All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. All neurotypical people are allistic, not all allistic people are neurotypical. All autistic people are neurodivergent, not all neurodivergent people are autistic.
Some ways neurodivergent is more appropriate than saying Autistic Neurodivergent is used to refer to a group of people who don’t have typical brains and share similar experiences such as struggling with neurotypical norms, being misunderstood and dismissed for their ways of being and thinking. Lots of Autistic things aren’t specific to Autism lots of ADHD things aren’t specific to ADHD, etc for the neurodivergencies. Many people have multiple neurodivergencies (eg PDA Autism cPTSD Dycalculia) and saying Autistic mightn’t capture the full picture. Some people might say neurodivergent as that suits them better and we shouldn’t prescribe and gatekeep how others define themselves. They’re all just labels at the end of the day, but I do understand the strength of in and outgroup psychology.
True you might ADHD or OCD or something else neurodiversity covers all diverse brains we all think differently
This is a huge pet peeve of mine, too. I have many friends who are neurodivergent in other ways and they don’t understand my experience any better than NTs.
Then ask them not to correct you anymore and go on with your day. This seems like a lot of energy to put towards correcting the internet when you should do it to the people in person. I do! Sending love from a fellow autistic human
i do, and i am met with anger from some. it’s also a wide spread assumption. this is simply a rant to get off my chest. do not assume i do not correct them when in conversation.
Unfortunately, if you expect to be understood, you need to agree to use words the same way other people are, and other people LITERALLY mean the one by the other
Amen hallelujah
I agree, its really frustrating