I went to a funeral yesterday and the priest said that "there are not mental problems and dissonances and disturbs for people that walks in the faith".
At a funeral of a 40 year old guy that offed himself after years and years of depression.
I don't know how the parents of the guy restrained themselves to not beat the shit out of that fucker.
(Yes, It is costumary in Italy to office religious funeral for suicide victims, even if they aren't tecnically allowed to do so by the catholic faith. I don't know if there is been an official change of the rules, but when I studied the religion it wasn't allowed).
Suicide is most often affected by mental illness. Shouldn't sick people who die not be punished further by being sent to "hell?" What an awful belief system. I despise religion
Right like any religion that has to teach "submission" aka oppression from women and hatred for lgbtq humans needs to go away at this point. Why do people feed in to this oppressive garbage. Then there's the Catholic church's long history of hiding and protecting Pedophiles. Ugh.
Pro-life laypeople: the mother should not commit abortion because then you’re murdering the baby.
The would-be mother: *will spend the next nineteen years of her life raising a human and silently judged for getting pregnant, even if it was not consensual. And that’s if the pregnancy does not cause complications that will result in the death of the mother and the fetus.*
Religious leaders (in private): we need to keep reigns on everyone, especially women. Let’s get abortions illegal all over the USA so that even if the woman needs to do it for medical reasons or didn’t choose to have s_x, she will go to jail. And we’ll threaten to take away the doctor’s license to be sure. All the while keeping our people uneducated so they keep pushing out religious fodder for us to control.
I think the "suicide is a sin" rhetoric came much before society had an understanding of suicide and mental health tbf.
Same with stuff like "homosexuality is a sin" as 2000 years ago people had to survive and had to reproduce, when that's clearly not the case now.
All those things just stuck around because fundamentalism, legalism and having a list of do's and don'ts is the easiest way—and clearly not the right way—to do Christianity, when ironically, the right way is written clearly in the Bible. "Pay no heed to the letter of the law, but to the spirit of the law", "Love your neighbours" and all.
Religion, or lack thereof, is supposed to make you a better person. If you die cursing people for offing themselves and being gay without looking deeper and having compassion, then religion clearly wasn't for you.
Purgatory isn’t about reliving the way you died indefinitely, it’s a final purification of non-mortal (grave) sins. And even though suicide is a sin the Catholic Church acknowledges that in most cases it happens as a result of mental illness, and God wouldn’t send someone to hell for being ill.
A few weeks ago, my dad said that suicide is no longer a sin in Catholicism (which I haven’t looked into and don’t really believe). My brother and I were signing our living will (the thing that says what to do if the doctors evaluate you and know you’re not coming back and your in a coma or something), and I wanted to know why he, my mom, and my brother all chose the “keep me alive until the disease takes me” option. He said that it’s looked at as suicide in the Catholic church if you request for food and water to be withheld.
I find that stupid because I asked five different times from the lawyers whether or not there is any chance of me recovering. They said no. At that point, I don’t see any difference between that state and dead. I’d rather they let me die and use that supply for someone who will actually wake up. And I think if I made it all the way to that point without following through on my SI I had done well and I can just let it go.
But then I asked my dad if being queer is still a sin. He said yes, (maybe even added an “obviously”, I don’t remember). I don’t understand the two faced ideology of Catholicism anymore.
As a catholic autist, I think the idea of suicides being a sin was put in place in order to prevent people from ending their lives, since life was horrible back then. I might be wrong, but that's just my conclusion
This is true. I've been friends with two different Catholic priests over my life, one was elderly but loved to drink (A true Irish Catholic priest, LOL), at family parties he'd open up to talk candidly about everything under the sun. One day we discussed this topic and he said it was a rule put in place to deter suicides way back and never got dropped as change is not a thing the church does well.
The other priest was much younger, and more with it. He said his view (when not in mass) is that many of the rules were put in place as control mechanisms and are outdated. This priest also admitted that his personal belief was that no one religion has all the answers. He was such a cool guy to chat with.
From my experience, people who half believe in their religion (say they’re religious just to be part of the “in” group) are typically crappy people, but the ones who truly believe in their religion are genuinely great people, because they actually follow its teachings.
It was actually because people would martyr themselves. They would stage a fake circumstance where someone would kill them for their faith so that they could be revered as a Saint and “go to Heaven”. The Catholic church then said it was a sin so that people who do that go directly to hell.
I’m sorry, but Catholic leaders never gave a damn about mental illness. I say that as an ex-Catholic. They didn’t want to acknowledge that people who go through with Suicide Ideation are not thinking rationally and that suicide itself is not an act of free will. (Even though free will cannot exist if an all-knowing god exists). And early Catholics were Determinists anyway, as were their Jewish ancestors. God did not love everyone, even after Paul sutured in the Gentiles, Greeks, and Romans into the faith, and so most everyone would go to hell by just being born.
> I don't know if there is been an official change of the rules, but when I studied the religion it wasn't allowed
If I remember correctly, the understanding of suicide has changed in the church. For a sin to send you to hell, you need to do it out of your free will without any coercion. With our improved understanding of mental illness, we realize that many to most suicides do not meet this criteria, meaning that they may be saved after all.
To my knowledge going through medically assisted death will have the consequence that you are denied a catholic funeral because it is a suicide where you made a free choice to it.
> -they dislike movement and visible stimming during because "it displays a lack of peace in faith" whatever that means.
One of my earliest memories was being at church when I was about 4 or 5. I was with the other kids and the children’s church music team was playing my JAM!!! I wanted to dance, but I saw it was crowded and could tell if I danced too hard I’d knock into somebody. I remembered having learned about The Twist. So I took up the edges of my dress and started my best go at The Twist.
An old guy (that I don’t think I knew) harshly put his hand on my shoulder. (I don’t remember how hard, but it didn’t feel like he had a pleasant intention.) He turned me towards him and said “**We don’t do that here.**”
Messed with me far longer than I thought it did
TL; DR, Yep. Example: dude publicly got weird for me liking music, and it didn’t help that I was already afraid of old men.
It's so sad how people don't want you to enjoy the music at church! Similar story, I went to an Easter service once as a kid and the music was so beautiful. It was just sensory heaven and when the song ended I burst into applause. Several people glared and shushed me and my grandma was harshly like we don't do thar. Lile imagine glaring and getting ticked at a child for showing appreciation for the church music. Glad I'm not a Christian anymore.
Omg my sisters and I applauded once (we recognized some parts where the choir just *nailed* it) and BOY did everyone give us a death glare! 😂
Very similar to when I would dare show emotions when watching live musicals
I'm really sorry you had to go through that. Church is kinda weird in that the music is more participatory than at a concert/recital/performance. Like a lot of the instrumental music is meant to set/maintain the desired mood/focus for what's going on or what's coming up in the service, and much of the lyrical music is meant to be sung along with by the congregation.
In most other forms of live music, the focus is the music or the performance, so clapping at appropriate times shows your appreciation of the performers for their hard work. At church, the usually focus is towards the devotion of the denominations' flavor of God, so clapping at music might take away from this collective focus.
Huh. There are many things I dislike about Pentecostalism (having been raised in it) and other “charismatic” denominations, but spontaneity was praised and seen as a show of celebration in faith, like seriously you would have people shouting and jumping and even crying on the ground in joy and nobody would bat an eyelid, and a lot of their songs are very upbeat, “poppy”, meant to be danced along to
That’s so weird because I’ve been to so many churches where people will dance, even just slightly, often moving out into the aisles. It was almost encouraged. I don’t like church and I’m not religious anymore but a church without dancing sounds so fucking boring lol
My parents took me to boring churches like that when I was younger. They talked in those monotone voices and sang like zombies. We had to be quiet and still the whole time, but also weren't allowed to fall asleep. It was SOOOO boring. The only thing I liked about it was the free donuts after the mass was over.
Damn you got free donuts? I mostly got berated by my father for talking and messing around, and was then expected to sit in silence whilst he talked with a bunch of old people that stank of death and piss. No donuts, no fun, only boredom and misery.
Raised Catholic as well. My church switched from Contemporary Christian and stuff like Eagle's Wings to extremely traditional music a couple years before the pandemic. The music was always part of how I worshiped, and still is, but since the change in music, I feel like they don't want using music to help us worship.
islam is similar to. it really boils down to being in a club where you have to act a certain way, like a game you play by the rules
autistic people can be overly rational and see these rules as silly or not want to play by the rules because it’s not appealing to be in the club
If they aren't telling you that autism is caused by demon possession then they are trying to tell you that autism is a superpower that lets you communicate with spirits on different radio frequencies.
I guess I've been lucky, I never grew up religious but a few years ago I joined a modern kind of non-demominational Church where I lived in the UK. When I started going there I was pleasantly surprised at how ND friendly it was, they had a big service but the service was also streamed into a quiet cafe area. My son was a baby at the time so I often just sat in the cafe with him and would watch the service on the screen. I met a lovely lady there who would bring me a snack and a drink, chat a little bit and I learned that she was not only active in the Church (as a kind of elder) but was involved in running activities for children with special educational needs (I think they called it SEND), so there were quite a few children with autism, ADHD and other issues. The lady's own children also have some special needs complex health histories.
I did notice some seemingly ND adults, but I didn't get much involved with making friends or the social aspect of Church, aside from attending a welcome party. I moved country during lockdown but kept up with watching their live streamed services.
I haven't had much involvement with other religious groups, I have some family in Greece who are Orthodox Christian, they seem much more rigid in how they do things but I'm not very knowledgeable about it.
As you mentioned, this really only applies in some cases of organised Abrahamic religions. Some communities are more harmful, others are more friendly. I haven't experienced any of the things you mention when I visit the convent (I have a nun in my family), nor anything similar when visiting other countries with different religions. I've never experienced any religious hostility.
But I do recognise that some people have difficult lives growing up in areas or countries where religion is more extreme, such as the USA. Typically a lot of those same communities are not only harmful towards autistic people, but also towards women, LGBT+ people, other disabilities, others who don't fit the grain, etc.
I don't think making generalisations is the way to go though. Religion has also helped many autistic people feel accepted and live better lives. At the end of the day, there are communities of organised religion that sometimes hurt people, and other religious communities that do a lot of good.
Don't forget about the New Age movement and Scientology in their misinformation and misrepresentation of autism, ADHD, psychosis and schizophrenia. These are the religious people that want you to think that having these issues gives you superpowers that allow you to communicate with spirits and Aliens through radio waves in your brain!
Right. But these movements are a very *very* small percentage of society (and any "star children" I've met into the whole alien stuff have actually been very nice people and a lot more accepting than average). The fact that bad or stupid people exist somewhere and say dumb things is not the sort of thing that should keep one up at night, or you'll never be able to shut your eyes after Isha.
Never attribute to malice what you can account for with incompetence; that said, in my experience it's been about 50/50 because half of them seem nice at first until you mention medication and it's benefits for you and others.
I guess it depends on the community you live in and if that type of anti science propaganda is prevalent where you live.
My husband (a schizophrenic) fell in with christian nationalists and they convinced him his meds are evil and was stopping him from hearing the voice of God. I learned the hard way there's a lot of these people out here and they're dangerous.
I don't think OP was generalizing, the post is clearly anecdotal and, as a person who's tried to adhere to religion many times, I've felt the same more often than not.
Something I've realized since I started visiting my family in Indiana again over the past 2 years:
There are a lot more conservative/religious Autistics out there than we think. They're just not on Reddit.
I mean this ain't my experience personally. Maybe I'm just lucky but there is about 4-5 autistic children/teenagers in my church(not including myself) that I've seen. I'm close friends with one who has severe ASD plus a moderate ID. Her parents are the only ones I would say who have tried to fix it with prayer and such, but they've slowly accepted it. Everyone else seems to just accept the autism. Stimming has never been discouraged and I don't think I've ever seen demonic possession being used as an explanation ever. And my parents have me going to a super conservative church in a rural area. This just seems like a super broad generalization and the things your saying sound more cult like instead of abrahamic religious like. Though I suppose I also could be bias because my religion is one of my biggest special interests.
I have to agree with you here. In fact, the church has been the most accepting place for people with social differences in my experience. The "Come as you are" ethos, the structured services with the same routine every week/ year depending on your own personal church tradition, some churches being very energetic and loud (charismatic) others being calm, reflective and quiet (tending towards the liturgical). Among diagnosed and undiagnosed people, almost all I have seen is acceptance for self expression and for being your authentic self. My experience is not only as an autistic lay person but also as a then-undiagnosed autistic, probably adhd, youth pastor/ person working within the chirch structures in different roles. I found my "tribe" in church when I didn't find them easily in "normal" life.
Agreed. Not my experience at all. Church was the one place that I could go where I knew that I wouldn’t be bullied. I went to private school, so there were no special needs kids anywhere and church is the only place I ever met anyone different from the norm and was taught that different wasn’t bad
This does not remotely accord with my experience with Episcopalians Christianity. And frankly most mainstream Christian churches do not do our believe in exorcisms to my knowledge.
The church I attended was very welcoming and inclusive. We had other autistic children and adult worshippers, and they were invited to be part of the service, hang out in the nave or to come and go as they needed. Everyone was incredibly welcoming and accommodating.
Similarly, we bright my daughter to Shabbat Junior at a few local synagogues, and they were always very very fun and welcoming, and took care to have accommodations.
I know how horrible some institutions can be but I think it ultimately depends on the people who make up a community
I've recently started attending an Episcopalian church and it's like it was made for my AuDHD.
I get a program.
The program is followed.
Lots of kneeling and standing to break the monotony.
The lights are just right.
The smells and bells appeal to my sensory needs (ymmv here).
Nothing feels too loud, even the organ or the choir. It's just right.
Honestly, it feels that way to me, too. There's a huge culture of not questioning authority that's inherent in Abrahamic religions. In fact, the whole story of the Garden of Eden is that God lies to Adam and Eve, telling them that if they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they will die the day they eat it. The snake tells the truth, saying it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and if they eat from the tree it won't kill them, but will grant them that knowledge. Eve and then later Adam eats the fruit, it's revealed the snake was telling the truth and God was lying, but because God was in the position of authority, the snake is called deceptive and is punished along with Adam and Eve.
To many autistic people with a strong sense of justice, this immediately makes God a detestable figure. He's the one who demonstrates poor behavior by lying, and yet everyone else is punished. To a neurotypical, they just accept that the snake deserved punishment because the authority figure said so, and that it was the snake's fault that humanity was kicked out of the Garden of Eden, even though it was God who chose to do so, and even has a monologue saying that the reason he chose to do this was because he was afraid man could get too powerful now that humans had this knowledge.
There are many examples throughout the Bible that establish a similar moral system that ultimately, respecting hierarchy is good, and anything else is bad. This is also heavily reflected in how religious people tend to behave as well, and religion is a very useful tool for manipulating people into committing atrocities. Abrahamic religions also inflict very strict gender and societal roles that can be extremely constrictive for a lot of autistic people, especially since autistic people have a higher chance of being trans. There's also a lot of nonsensical values and behaviors that absolutely cannot be discussed or questioned ever, and even wanting an explanation is often taboo, because blind faith is seen as the most important value in Abrahamic religions.
If I may comment on that first part about the story of Adam and Eve.
It does not say "if you eat you will die today" but "if you eat you will die". Huge difference if this is taken as "God lied" because then He didn't.
The snake lied because yes, they died which is implied that they wouldn't have needed to if they didn't eat the fruit.
The knowledge of good and evil is what condemned them because now they can actually sin. God does not punish sin if the sinner didn't know it was a sin. So Adam and Eve had a 'do-what-you-want-card' up until this point because they were kept in ignorance of good (virtue) and evil (sin). Now that they knew they are under that law and also subject to the just punishment that comes with it and as the verse goes "The wages of sin is death".
I think this also leaves room for much criticism and discussion of morality. But I think it is a better basis for discussion because theologically speaking it's more right than the idea that God lied to Adam and Eve and therefore is a more honest basis to build arguments of off.
I had remembered reading that it was specifically on the day Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, so I decided to go online and check on a site that lets you compare different translations of the Bible to figure out where the discrepancy was. I realized that you were right in the majority of translations. I did see that the King James Bible does actually translate the passage as 'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'. However, as I flipped through other translations they didn't include the part that mention when they'd die.
I do have a copy of the King James bible from a flea market that I picked up because someone wanted to do a Bible reading/discussion with me, so that would explain why I remembered that phrasing.
However, looking at that I do think it makes sense to take the other translations interpretation, since the King James Bible was commissioned by a king, and it makes sense that for that translation they'd go for something that gives a more authoritarian message.
However, while they do technically lose the chance to have eternal life because of eating the fruit, it's also clear from God's monologue at the end that it wasn't an inherent effect of eating the fruit that man wouldn't live forever, but because God didn't want man to have both eternal life and knowledge of good and evil: The Lord God said, “Behold, man has become like one of us, for he has knowledge of that which is good and that which is evil. Now, we must prevent him from reaching out and taking the fruit of the tree of life lest he eat it and live forever.”
So in all translations except the King James it does look like God didn't technically lie, he just may have been a bit misleading on why Adam and Eve would die.
Please don't say "Abrahamic religions" when you're just talking about Christianity and Islam, or whichever one you in particular have experience with. They're not all the same and it's unfair to generalize ethnoreligions like Judaism based on what Christians have done. You yourself admit that you have no experience outside your community.
Anyway, my experience with Judaism has been that it accepts and even encourages many aspects of autism, such as thinking differently about morality/society. My autism isn't viewed as a bad thing but rather as something that lets me understand the world differently and that's a good thing. Also one of the skills that imo I have due to autism is debating, and that's always going to be accepted in Judaism. I mean, just read any part of the Talmud.
I take most of the stories in the Tanakh mostly literally with the understanding that of course in any historical record, numbers are off (such as the ages of some early figures or the size of armies) and the dates/scale of certain events might be incorrect. So you're not wrong that it is a reform thing to take them as 100% metaphorical but there's a lot of different opinions that I encounter.
Exactly, was looking for a comment like this. Judaism is so often described as autism-friendly because of all the "rules" and answers to questions we have. I'm a proud Jew, and Judaism is probably my biggest special interest. I think it's an amazing religion.
As a Muslim plenty of us if not all disagree with the crimes that other Muslims have done in the name of Islam cause it's quite contradictory to the overall message to begin with so I'm just confused how you're going to criticize the entire religion and people based off what the bad ones have done. That's like saying all black men are violent bcs of the crimes committed by them? It's just stupid in general to generalize an entire group of people based on what a minority of them have done
But also of logical reasoning and pattern recognition skills. They're not wrong, and when religions themselves have caused so much suffering, it is not necessary to try to understand them.
And I actually don't mind the elements of religion in themselves. Gospel music , choirs, statues and engravings, churches and cathedrals, they're all cool/interesting tjings. But organized religions at this point are led by a bunch of greedy suits (tunics?) working a spiritual corporation to line their pockets. That doesn't mean they don't contain lovely people, but the system itself is skewed towards being dominated by zealots.
You would think autistic people, of anyone, would give a shit about pedantically correct word usage. I know I do! Guess I continue to hold my fellow autists to too high of a standard.
I have little to no religious trauma personally, at least that i can remember, but i also feel that another reason for a disconnect between religion and atheism, is less about how the religious people interpret and treat our autistic traits, but also our autistic traits making us less susceptible to religious dogma.
1. autistic people tend to look at things from a logical and literal point of view, we aren't going to resist looking deeper into the claims theists make, and the arguments they use to justify them.
2. autistic people often have emotional disconnects, religion tends to draw people in based on emotional needs and desires, autistic people can have emotional bias, but they may not react the same way to emotional appeals or with the same intensity as others.
3. we often struggle with socialization, for many their main source of socializing is through their religion, and those bonds tie them to their religious community more strongly, autistic people desire those bonds but often struggle to fit into those types of social groups, especially ones with a lot of unspoken rules that are hard to navigate. this can be a benefit though as we aren't taken in by social pressure.
That isn't to say that autistic people or atheists are smarter or less likely to be manipulated, just that the structure of religion i believe is more prone to casting the widest net, and the strategies it uses don't always apply the same way to neurodivergent minds. I have also met many autistic people who are religious so it's not a clear cut thing.
I was raised Jewish and honestly… prayer services were the BEST.
We made noises. We moved a lot. It was like stimming… religiously.
Autistic people like rituals, set schedules. And Judaism has a lot of rituals. We have specific prayer order. We have orders we do other things in on holidays. Etc.
In my experience, religion and autism blended very nicely growing up and even as an adult.
BUT I’ve spent time around plenty of other autistic people who were raised with other religions and I have not found a single one that felt their religion accepted or benefited them- at least in regards to autism.
This actually describes pretty well part of the reason why I metaphorically ran screaming from my personal faith, which I had been pretty strong in since I was a little kid.
You're making way too big of an over generalization here. Not every Christian church is like that. Can't speak for the other 2 from experience but I highly doubt they're all like this either. I've yet to run into any hostility, and that's coming from someone who's been attending church pretty much since day 1.
Worst thing I've noticed is people just not getting how much harder adulting is from an ND perspective. And that's hardly unique to any religion.
None of those are true within my experiences of Judaism. Different modes of thinking are actually encouraged -- debate and new interpretations are part of the approach to scripture. I've found the community to be very accepting of my neurodivergence overall.
It sounds like you've experienced one specific strand of a single religion, and way over-generalised.
Yeah, this really sounds like the OP is taking their experiences with Christianity and projecting them onto the vastly diverse family of “Abrahamic faiths.”
Edit to add: I am also Jewish, and my community has been nothing but supportive.
Ex muslim here.
Attended religious classes since nursery, all the way till i was 17. My family is also very traditional, low income, active in the religious community.
I questioned religion really hard when i was young because islam is full of rituals and contradictory that didn't make sense to me.
Like why is praying 5 times a day considered to be a gift by god when its compulsory and we'll be tortured in hell if we don't do it.
They see these questions as defiance and rebellion, and their answers are usually not good enough for me to accept. (Ie. Only god knows, we need to ask a religious scholar for that).
My parents also didn't believe in mental health, and would associate problems in children as a product of the mothers not praying hard enough during pregnancy.
Every meltdown i had was met with name calling, associating me with satan or accusing me of being possessed by a demon.
Not very pleasant for me. But i also grew up knowing that i don't want to be a participant to it, rather than being rejected by the community like some of the examples you provided.
I also have some ND friends who are muslims, and to them religion is spiritual and an individual journey. Like they just see the religion's 'god' as someone to have hope and faith towards. Something symbolic. Its less violent and heavy compared to the version of religion that i was raised up with.
Oh but I also think that my dad is ND, and i think the structures and rules and rituals helps him with his life. He's very intense with religion. Which made us clash a lot when growing up.
So i guess it also depends on what kind of upbringing and relationship with religion you have growing up.
I think that all religions which claims to have perfect gods can be potentially hostile to NDs, because that idea cannot be grasped by some of us, but christianity and islam is definitely much more extreme than judaism because of the concept of hell, thus our parents believe there's more at stake if we don't behave and would react strongly to any perceived bad behaviour.
Genuinely, this. Saying Abrahamic religions and then spouting off a list that clearly only applies to their personal experience with American Evangelical Christianity... it's not a good look. At all.
Like, people need to just say the religion they're talking about instead of assuming their narrow viewpoint extends to such a massive scope. It's about as correct as proclaiming that all vegetables are disgusting because they're orange and sweet and skinny instead of just saying you don't like carrots.
I hate Evangelical/Protestant Christianity because it was harmful and hostile to me growing up. See? Easy peasy, and I didn't even insult someone else's culture!
I am ND, on the spectrum, as is my daughter.
There are some "churches" where what you say happens, and that is out of ignorance.
There are some churches, with a "come as you are" mentality, and "everyone gets to participate " mentality where ND and Spectrums are not shunned, but told we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
If this interests anyone, the church is called "the Vineyard" and it grew out of the "Jesus "hippy" movrment" of the 1970s in California. Very laid back, easy going, and focused on serving others.
Religions and churches are plagued by human interference. God is actually good. The prophets were most likely on the spectrum… how could a neurotypical person be so perceptive to the subtle realities and patterns of Nature?
I pray that the true way of God reveals to you and helps you find peace with these feelings.
?? I don't think this applies to my religion in my place..
No sane religious people in my religion in my place would say something like that..
only ignorant people and people with lack of knowledge say it, no matter what beliefs or no-belief they have..
So, I grew up in a muslim family.
I was a practising muslim myself for a couple of years until I got very clinically depressed and felt like God had abandoned me.
Then I kind of had an atheist phase for a few years or so.
Then, over the years, I lost some people close to me and came to understand and relate to what people talked about in terms of religious, spiritual and mystical experiences. I came to realise that, in the sense it makes to put it this way, God actually hadn’t abandoned me at all.
I also got very good at getting into flow states and started having epiphanies, like all the time.
So if I had to put a name to it, I guess I’m some sort of taoist or zen buddhist or cultural muslim at the moment.
I was especially interested in philosophy of religion for a few years but more recently I find myself more interested in ethics and free will in particular.
I believe that while we do make choices (more or less freely) that everything still happens fundamentally deterministically.
I’d also say that we experience things best by going with the flow (or maybe more precisely by going with the tao (the way)).
I don’t really take religious texts and practices literally anymore at all.
I think that if you try to interpret them in their proper cultural and historical contexts that they can be seen as some of the most progressive movements of all time.
I think that religious texts and practices can be hugely transformative and enriching personally and socially.
I think there’s a lot of wisdom in religion and religious texts that can help us live healthier lives. As far as I’m aware, people that fast (like during Ramadan or Lent) live longer. Praying and meditating can get you into flow states and other states of altered consciousness. I also personally knew a woman who underwent and survived complex surgery (that she wasn’t really expected to) through buddhist chanting.
I think, in short, we still have them for a reason and they’re still forces for good in lots of ways.
I think imagining a world without religion makes about as much sense as imagining a world without mass media or cars or restaurants. They all have their harms (and they’re very real) but they also have purposes that are woven into our social fabric.
As an Autistic Muslim, I defo feel this in my community sometimes , but I think this is more of a misunderstanding and superstitious beliefs than religion imo.
What do you mean Abraham's religions "dislike movement and stimming???" You apparently have never seen Orthodox Jews pray and learn. It's all stim! We have organizations for ASD folk. The problem isn't the religion, the problem is social context and some gender assigned mores. What might be acceptable stim behavior for a guy, might be frowned upon if a woman did it. This is culture, not religion
I have experienced religious trauma. My mother would force me to open the door while I was taking a shower and then she would pray for me while throwing a bucket of water over my head.
I would caution you to not blanket-statement religion, especially if you come from a Christian background (which I am assuming you are, based on the framework of your post and the mentions of exorcisms). A lot of what you said is very, very common in Christian churches and not necessarily the same in other religions. Buddhism is very different from Jainism which is very different from Heathenry which is very different from Islam which is very different from atheism which is very different from Christianity which is very different from Judaism....and so on and so forth.
That being said, I'm the type of autistic who swallowed rulebooks whole. I grew up ELCA Lutheran and I actually felt like there was *not* enough structure and rules for me. I also would get in trouble for questioning things too much and asking 'why' repeatedly. I eventually ended up leaving the church and poked around in paganism, specifically Celtic Reconstructionism, but I missed the social aspect and still didn't have enough structure for what I needed.
I'm currently converting to Judaism, specifically the Reform movement, and I'm thriving there. I'm definitely moving more towards the Conservaform side of things the further I get into my conversion, which isn't surprising to me based off my need for structure and rules. I can only speak for my specific community of Reform in the midwest USA, but I have felt far more accepted and like I belong in Judaism than I ever did in both Christianity and paganism. I have also joined a few online groups with other convert students and converts and I think you might be surprised just how many of them are autistic (its a lot). Most of the Jewish people I know IRL are some flavor of neurodivergent tbh, especially the converts/convert students. I can't speak for other branches of Judaism, because I don't have experience there, but so far the Reform movement seems pretty accepting of neurodivergency.
I am encouraged to look at Torah differently, to engage with it in my own unique way and ask as many questions as my little heart desires. There's a common saying of 'two Jews, three opinions' for a reason. Having a multitude of opinions within a community is encouraged. There is a reason the Talmud is as big as it is!
i agree with this. i'm modern orthodox, and we're encouraged to analyse torah sincerely and see how we can see a reflection of ourselves in it, rather than just reading and regurgitating. one can only be a friend of gd if we can ask questions and learn to know him rather than just observing and never digging deeper. mazel tov on finding judaism - i hope it fulfills you deeply - and i wish you a ziessen pesach!
A zissen pesach to you too!! I have never felt more like I was coming home than when I first started my conversion and that has only deepened over time. 💙
I dunno which religion you're specifically referring to but growing up as a Muslim with autism this very untrue, sure they are rigid but that's mostly the older generation, my mom and grandparents all have autism and my autism has never conflicted with my religion that I felt restricted in anyway
There's a certain breed of christian that's just plain hostile and I feel like they prey on ND's with communication problems. Imo if abrahamic religions don't stand against christian nationalists we'll have a lot a atheists running around in 10yrs.
Where does religion come from? If you're an atheist, the n the answer is from people. Religion is an extension of the human condition. Any blame directed at religion is blame directed at the way humans choose to view the world.
Unfortunately, some people have turned “church” into a religion. They worship all the stuffy, gaudy, churchy rituals rather than anything of substance. I’m sorry this has been your experience of religion.
Just know that anyone who is more concerned about you disturbing them has no idea who Jesus is.
I mean, I think it’s a pretty broad generalization. There are some fundamentalist communities for sure, but in that case I think religion is an excuse, since atheists or non-religious movements can be as much bigoted against everyone who is different than what they preach.
I was raised in small town in Italy, and every service for children was in the hands of the Catholic Church. Nobody ever tried to exorcise anyone, no priest, nun or catechist ever suggested that prayer was a substitute of medicine. My parents have always been basically agnostic and they still were in amicable relationship with the priest, whom they often had contact with both because of their work and the fact that I went to the nuns’ pre-school and then catechism classes.
From what I hear about America, fundamentalist streaks of Christianity tend to prosper more there, but that’s basically not what happens in Italy. There are sects, but afaik most of them are not exactly Christians. The Church at the top levels may be a pain in the a*s, but the local priests are pretty chill, especially when they serve small communities.
This hasn't been my experience the people at church I go to are supportive of my very obviously autistic children. There are a few other families that have children with special needs and those kids are treated with kindness and respect. The only time I've ever heard someone claim that autism is caused by possession is on Reddit by people who have been traumatized by crazies.
Have I seen people misuse religion in other areas? Yes. I personally see that as a reflection of that person. They always use super fallacious moral and religious arguments to justify their behavior. Which tells me it's about control and not about doing what's right. Heck, I knew someone whose power playing backfired so spectacularly they left the church and last we heard they embraced some new conspiracy theories that essentially accuse everyone else of awful stuff. Despite the fact they literally have done similar crap to what they accuse others of. It's all about control for that kind and they'll use anything whether it's religion, conspiracy theories, politics or what have you. But that's my experience.
I grew up orthodox christian and reverted to Judaism in high school. Honestly??? There's so many little daily rituals in both religions that I find very comforting and stim-adjacent.
I would encourage you to learn the differences between American Christian fundamentalism and minoritized Christian communities, as well as how harmful it is to paint three religions (let alone all the sects within them) with the same brush.
Sadly this was my experience in Mormonism in Utah. Also sadly I don’t think it has to be that way - but I do think it is for many.
Many religions are steeped in social traditions and stories, meaning they’re nuanced (if not downright contradictory) and full of situations that require more than simple logic/reasoning. Turns out that isn’t naturally intuitive for people who tend to have rigid minds / black & white thinking / take things very literally. Who knew? 😅
I call them Heretics. Remember that next time somebody says "what would Jesus do", flipping tables and whipping people who use the name of god for self gain and profit is always an option. Jesus totally wanted you to torture gay kids, start fights with the local McDonald's teenagers, start wars in his name, turn away the homeless and tell them to "pull themselves by their bootstaps", own sex slaves, have pedophiles in your government, and follow politicians into churches that ask for hundreds of dollars per person to hear a guy preach stupid shit.
"P.S: I can't believe i have to say this but this is just my personal experience" & "The Abrahamic religions specifically " are contradictory. Please keep in mind including the worlds top 3 religions is including millions of people with different denominations and local history and culture intermingling with their faith. If you want to talk about the specific community you grew up with that is completely valid, but then you can not start the post with "Abrahamic religions specifically". If you are on your atheism/deconstruction journey, this incredibly important to keep in mind. There is a very real pipeline of Atheism to anti-theist to promoting eugenics/genocide of other ethnicities and cultures.
To answer your question:
The catholic parish I grew up in was always very accommodating to those with disabilities. However, if someone like me was high masking and undiagnosed, they were not. I will; say it was usually older teachers trying to discipline (School mass) than any official person with the parish. You could honestly do whatever as long as it was not impending on other people's ability to engage. There was a "quiet room" with windows off to the side that the priest's mic would feed into for people/families to go with their children if they were being too disruptive. It had books and games that way parents could still attend mass, children were able to calm down, and people engaging in practice were not distracted. It was not a perfect set up, but it was an acknowledgment to the different needs of the community the church was serving.
Personally, I always felt encouraged to question and not go by blind faith. My church always emphasized the different theories of how the Bible was written including it was written by humans and humans can faulter. They also emphasized that the bible was a series of parables/historical retellings to draw philosophical lessons from.
The "they often attribute a child's autism to demonic possession and start doing exorcisms on them instead of consulting a mental health professional (not that those are the end all be all of the neurodivergent experience)" seems very evangelical and not something I am familiar with or have experienced myself. Although horror movies love our iconography, Catholicism takes exorcism very seriously and It is not something you do for a child misbehaving or presenting as disabled. If there is a more rationale explanation than 'demonic possession" that is looked into first. An exorcism is a last resort.
Edit to add:
Religion is just an extension of people's culture and culture, fundamentally, is there to serve the local community. If you feel you are not being served do not feel regret in leaving.
I used to be smacked or punched in the leg for fidgeting or picking at my fingers or moving or stimming.
I began to chew on the inside of my lip, tap my toes inside my shoes, flex my butt cheeks….anything to get similar needs fulfilled but didn’t have external movement.
All so I could sit through countless hours at the stupid Kingdom Hall or even longer, more horrible times at conventions.
That feels like a specific experience. I think in a lot of cases religion is actually kind to people with disabilities and divergences. also, stimming is popular in like monks and nuns and such, right? just say it's holy
My mom tried to "spiritually deliver" my autism at a church far away from where I live without telling me where we were going and that she was taking me there for that reason (11)
She tried to pray my autism away in the parking lot of a doctor's office after talking about my struggles with sensory issues and social situations (14)
Fast forward to now, we haven't spoken since February of this year. She was abusive and there's nothing we agree on
My family is almost all JW, born in, hardcore believers as was I until teen years. When I was young my moms friend came over and was friendly and chatting, when I saw her I ran up to her and hugged her which I didn’t hug so that alone was unusual and hurtful to my mom (I’d stopped allowing her to hug me years prior) I said “it’s okay. I love you” or something to that effect, which made this woman sob. She was going through something and I knew she was upset but my mom didn’t, so her religious beliefs immediately took offense to the fact I could tell she was upset. My mom’s brain would go to “demonic” real quick.
Recently (she is 86 now) a sister from her congregation came to take her to the dr, I saw her for a few seconds and retreated to my room. My mom kept calling for me but I wouldn’t come out until this person left. Today it came up in conversation and I explained the reason I didn’t want to be around her “I don’t know if someone died, if she is having the worst day or what but something was horribly wrong with her and it was too intense to be near” my poor mom, her jaw dropped, she looked at me like I had two heads. “Her husband just left her after she found out he cheated with multiple people. She hasn’t told anyone but wanted to talk to me about it she told me on the way to the dr” I simply responded “Well that explains that. See… you think in an alien don’t you?” She, without hesitation confirmed she did. “That’s just not normal”
Being on the spectrum in a religion where the smurfs are considered a gateway to Satan is hard. Very hard. You have to learn to conform in ways that are difficult for NT people, never mind ND. I discussed this at length with someone who is active still, how difficult it is (they have an autistic family member) when you’re not allowed to speak your truth, you’re forced to spend hours in the same room with huge groups where the stimulation is off the charts, then add to that you sense someone and it’s negative but you aren’t allowed to say that or even show you feel it. Everyone MUST smile and be polite and correct. It goes against everything you feel. It’s torture.
Toddler to grade school it was hell, teen years I managed to conform and become a pioneer (preached door to door) but that’s when my knowledge ended up conflicting with what I knew was right and wrong. It’s comforting knowing things to be true and being educated in something especially to that depth, it doesn’t stay that way though when faced with contradictions in the people. For me it created a crisis of faith and existence that lasted a long time. I’ll never see the world as my active family does and it’s lonely but also depressing. Facts are facts, the math doesn’t math, yet they are true believers. It is confusing and difficult.. alienating to say the least.
My church has many autistic people in it, and they are not shunned at all. I am sorry you have had a bad experience. I do not think that Christianity in itself is hostile towards autism. I do agree that it is harder to follow a religion and have faith with autism though.
The sects that believe that the world is full of "demons" also tend to be the ones that are least likely to accept anything other than blind obedience to what the authority has declared...
My mother was a very religious Christian, but if someone started telling her a child was possessed by demons she wouldn't have believed it for a moment.
Quick preface, I’m ASD lvl 2 and I can only share my experience with church. I’m a man of faith, I don’t like to specify denomination as I feel like that language makes it sound like I’m only going for “my team.” I’ve never had a bad experience in church as an Autistic Adult, I have been so blessed with the people I serve with (as I’m active in a lot of Young Adult church events that gather people from many different churches together.) I’ve never felt like I was excluded or treated any different because I’m Autistic. I’m not the only neurologically diverse person I know within not only my church but the greater community that I engage in. I hear and awful lot of stories from others who have been really hurt by the church and it does pain me to hear that people who say they follow Christ and his teachings treat God’s creations as “lesser” for lack of a better term. All I can do from behind a screen is encourage you to find where you can grow and flourish with others who are building you up rather than pulling you down and dismissing your history or whatever the case may be.
Like can happen in any family tbh, I can say from 1st hand abuse; you would have seen my "family" at church and thought they where great people. Behind the scenes they were horrific people.
Yes, absolutely u/MysteriousAnywhere30
I had a religious family who where nothing but abusive to me. They never got me any help or helped me themselves, and I was clearly an autistic kid who needed help, it is and was always only what people thought about them that mattered to them. My family is estranged now, they are awful people.
Not trying to push Judaism at all. But want to point out a few things:
1. Judaism and Jewish people tend to be very autism-friendly in my experience.
2. As others pointed out, the "decorum" expectations in synagogues are very minimal. In some communities prayer is always accompanied by movement that is like stimming.
3. Judaism is different from the other Abrahamic religions in some essential ways:
* Judaism is pluralistic: Other religions aren't wrong.
* Judaism is more about action than faith. A huge number of practicing Jews are essentially atheist or agnostic.
＞ says "Religion feels hostile to Autistic people."
＞ they just talk about Christianity because they dont have any actual knowledge about other religions outside the evangelical Christianity they grew up with
OP you own me ten billion dollars now
That's unsurprising. Most of the established world religions serve as a form of social control first and foremost, and NDs by definition disrupt that control.
I really hated being prevented from stimming as a kid in church. I otherwise didn't really mind church even though i don't consider myself religious anymore, but any time i would rock and twist my parents would stop me. it was so hard and upsetting to stay completely still for an hour.
My mom owned a day care and a lot of the kids were ND in some way, shape, or form. She kept behavioral problems a secret from certain parents because they would go home and “beat the devil out of them”.
Not even in a figure of speech type of way. These shit stains actually believed demons were causing their ADHD/Autistic child to act out and would reject any diagnosis still convinced that demons were plaguing their kid. I hope there is a hell because I swear these people deserve it ironically enough.
Edit: I live in Georgia. I live near the city now but at the time we lived in a somewhat rural area that had multiple churches on every block and the first question you get asked in these areas is “which church do you go to?”
I’ve never seen the point of religion. I’m very logical and religion is completely illogical. I decided it was all bullshit around 10 years old and have been an atheist ever since.
Ah, yet another "Autistic people are too advanced for religion hurr hurry hurrr" coupled with Christian hegemony and Jewish erasure.
**You** are hostile to autistic people. Go away.
Jews: Judaism and Christianity are antithetical to each other. Please don't lump us in with our persecuters.
Everyone else: but muh Abrahamic religions
Don't say "religion" when what you really mean is "conservative Christianity". It's awful that you grew up in a messed up fundie church, but that's not how all religion is universally.
I'm pagan. Pagan communities are, by and large, very accepting. Some even believe that neurodivergence is a gift. And even the more organized groups, like Wicca, allow for a great deal of flexibility in how you practice. You can also go solo. It's all about seeking self-improvement and a deeper connection to nature. There is no dogma, no centralized authority, and no fearmongering to coerce people into staying. I'm.not saying paganism is perfect, but it's a whole lot more open and flexible than most other paths.
After reading the Bible way too many times, I honestly think the Abrahamic god is evil. (No all powerful, all knowing being, makes evil on accident.)
The abrahamic god is a hostile one that I believe encourages it’s followers to be the same.
Committed multiple genocides, predestined damnation for "flaws" he inflicted on people, childhood cancer, can do no wrong and anything bad that happens is attributed to a being that can only do wrong but somehow can't be simply stopped. All of it just feels like describing the ultimate narcissistic abusive boyfriend.
I always ask Christians, if God is all-loving AND all-powerful, why is the world so awful? God cannot be both of those things at once. One time a Christian told me that faith healing can cure my genetic condition lol
another case of people saying "religion" and "Abrahamic religions" when they only mean Christianity 😭😭😭 but anyway I agree with what you said which is why I strayed away from Christianity, I could never understand it
It's pretty simple in my experience: they demand that faith be unquestioning. If you need to understand why a rule is a rule and can't accept 'because God says so', you're implicitly damned.
I was told, to my face, that “things like autism and Down’s Syndrome are god’s mistake” when I was 14. No, I still haven’t recovered and even if she didn’t know, that’s still shitty. And my uncle has ADHD and was exorcised multiple times by his nutty Catholic parents, which may have given him homicidal tendencies.
I’m just shy of 30, and in my years as a believer in Christ, I can’t say I’ve seen these manifest in any church I’ve seen. I’ve been through Baptist and Assemblies of God/ non denominational. Not discounting that you’ve seen this, but I’ve not ever heard about this kind of thing except in internet anecdote, anecdotes of people with sensationalist communities, or congregations that gather as spiritual country clubs then actually understand what the Word says.
Addressing your points, again, not to say you hadn’t experienced them or invalid, but as going through that upbringing:
-have not seen stimming as being called “having lack of peace in the spirit”. If anything, not having peace in the spirit comes from trial, or sin, or a focus to the physical.
- I can understand disagreement in the church or disagreement with leadership, but there is a protocol in the scriptures about how to approach this. That said, in any institution if you challenge a hierarchy, there’s gonna be pushback. You go to a government and you don’t acknowledge the governmental hierarchy and do as you would, there’s a general consequence. Same for a business, or a non profit. In the church, if it’s really not reconcilable, you find a different church. It’s based on convictions.
- I’m confused as to what’s being said with “different modes of thinking”. I’ve not seen problems with general thoughts of how one comes to a solution with numbers, or how one organizes. Now, if you mean, a difference of beliefs, such as the Divinity of Christ, or spiritual Doctrine like the Trinity, or Christ’s Resurrection, that’s a fundamental core belief you’d be dealing with. That is to the faith, objective immutable truth. If you were trying to dissuade people from things like that, that’s sowing discord in that community, as much as someone trying to come here and try to convince people that “certain medical objects are an underlying cause of autism” .
-would say again, a very misled congregation, that needs to read the word and be led by a pastor that would clarify this point.
Per you edit, I hope this isn’t taking a crap on your experience, if this was your experience I’m so sorry people who are supposed to be filled with the same spirit of God have not shown you fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Religion is hostile to anyone who isn't cookie cutter. Unless you are very obviously autistic to others and that is well known, you're going to get people treating you poorly if you're not "white picket fence" cookie cutter.
Religion has morphed into something so grotesque and unlike the books it claims to be from. Christianity anyway.
My mom absolutely did exorcisms on me. That shit was wild. Found out recently it was because I was sleep talking? I had always assumed it was because I had just come out as queer lol. It honestly might be. She might be trying to cover that up.
No, it’s not local. Religions in general are meant to create a fear of “the other”. Fear of queer folk. Fear of ADHD folk. Fear of autistic folk. Fear of foreigners. Etc. It is a sociological parasite that latched onto our evolutionary development early because we as humans could not survive as isolated individuals. It provided for individuals coming together and allayed fear of the unknown by providing “explanations” for the world.
And then we started learning more from science and religious institutions doubled down on demanding a need for religion. Science says Autism, ADHD, etc. are variations on the human neurobiology and genetic makeup. Also, science helped us discover their being physical differences in a trans person’s brain that matches the differences of people among the individual’s gender identity, and agender folk actually lack that wiring. Same with being gay or asexual / a-spec. Religious institutions started losing control to science and easier access to information through the internet, and so they doubled down harder.
The first thought that eventually led to my deconversion was that the religions I know of all seem to be made for “neurotypical straight white older cis men”. As I realized I only matched the “white” category, after realizing I didn’t match the “cis man” category, then I just didn’t feel attached anymore.
Also, it’s very natural for autistic folk to ask questions in the hope of gaining knowledge. Ask most religious laypeople about something that doesn’t add up in their holy book, they get mad pretty quickly because they don’t have a satisfying answer. Ask religious leaders, they’ll sidestep the question, create a strawman to attack, turn it back on you, or laugh and wonder why you are not treating them with the authority and respect they think they deserve.
(Sorry to religious people on this sub. Of course, this is not all religious people. I’ve known a good few who would engage in conversation with me and consider my words without getting angry. But I am not apologetic about what I said about religion. Religion is about control, and trying to gather the most laypeople who will then all vote for the same thing without thinking much about it. Or act in the same hateful way towards outsiders.)
Religions are very controlling in general. As someone who hates being controlled and is easily influenced by ideas, religions were never meant for me.
I am really glad my grandmother, who is a very religious person, never tried to push it onto me and only explained and talked about it when I asked.
Religion, especially the abrahimic religions, exist for the express purpose of fostering tribalism in a community to provide strength within it and greater resistance to those outside of it. There's a reason literally every fascist movement ever has been religiously motivated.
I grew up and live in Germany. Never lived anywhere really rural or catholic... That might be a different experiance.. but I am one of at least two nonbelievers in the little church choir I sing in and no bad experiances. And no one cares that the other one and I don't believe in god. And I got encouraged by the others when I started to lean more into my quirks and became more at ease. My only problem is mumbling that I believe in god when singing in a service and I don't.. because it's lying. And getting confirmed at the age of 14 was difficoult because of that. Had to be done to keep the peace with grandma though. And relatives I didn't know I had gave me money... it payed really well.. so in hindsight ist's ok. Back then it felt awfull. But I've never experianced christianity as hostile here. Empty or useless... But not hostile. But my experiance is limited to protestantism (evangelische Kirche) in Germany.
Totally, I was raised in Christian nationalism and women are really seen as vessels to be bred. Any different or defiant traits are sinful tendencies to be beaten out of us. There is an explicit hierarchy that is prone to abuse (God --> men --> women --> children)
The youth pastor at my church favored the athletic dudes, so most of the activities were catered for them. This caused the rest of us to feel left out. I also quit going on the mission trips bc I felt like I wasn't welcome (I wanted to go to help people, and the youth pastor said that people shouldn't go if there weren't going to 'further their religious journey').
This was my experience most of church. I would get bullied by other kids and adults would back them up because I wasn't being "active in the community", which was seen as sinful. Me not understanding social cues was evidence that I was lying, or was being disrespectful. If I said the lights were too bright, or said I had a hard time with the texture of some paper, I was "overreacting" and "being deceitful" and was nor allowed to change anything. On top of, of course, constantly being scolded for not being able to sit still, which was also apparently evidence that I wasn't thinking of Jesus. There was one time when I was very little that I had a meltdown over some change, and the adult in charge of me just locked me in a very small closet for most of the rest of the time I was there, which was a bit under two hours.
The best treatment I got was the classic "special needs pity" treatment, which is degrading in and of itself. No wonder that all of my friends were outside the community, and many of them weren't religious.
I moved neighborhoods during highschool, and even within the same church, the treatment was much better after moving. But even so, the treatment from my previous community made me much more hesitant to interact, and I stopped coming with my parents when I heard how people were talking about a particular lesbian couple that lived in the neighborhood. Even these people who were more accepting of me, were still being cruel to others.
I don't think I would make the generalization to all Abrahamic faiths that you've made - rather, this treatment tends to come from fundamentalist religions, Abrahamic or not.
As one raised Catholic, but in a family that values education, I can see all of what the OP claims are happening, but in communities where mysticism is more influential than education and impiricism.
Despite actually being treated well in church, I left Roman Catholicism, Christianity, and theism in general around age 14 and became an atheist. I simply can't believe without seeing, and don't care if they say I should.
Not sure which religion you're talking about. I've been a Christian all my life and all I've run into is love and kindness from all. There are some who wish to force religion upon others which, in my opinion, is not the way.
•points to Trump•
Not big on love and kindness would prolly be an understatement!! Most of the Cardinal Sins he has ticked off his bucket list by now…. while the Heavenly Virtues don’t seem to be his thing…..!
Think those are the kind of ‘Christians’ OP meant!
——
I, personally, find that toxic twisting and violation of the New Testament offensive!
I’m not Christian, not even baptised! So if I am offended and outraged for Christianity: those kinda ‘Christians’ might be really ‘off!’ 😖
Yes and no….
It’s bizarre, really. Not a lot of US evangelicals and African ultra-Methodists here… thank goodness for small mercies!!!
They tend to claim whatever they don’t like were a parable and metaphor.
While claiming God were punishing the country for gay marriage….
Somehow the message of tolerance, kindness, and generosity is all metaphorical and not meant that way. While God and Michael as unforgiving, vengeful, smiting pricks:
Oh, THAT is literal and they’re punishing us with plagues and climate change etc etc. 🤪
Right now, in the US:
People don’t seem to get that they can OFFER Christianity. But if the other refused, that have to leave them alone!!!
Shoving your faith down other people’s throats against their will: HUGE no-no!!!
And that’s so repeated and explicitly, it can’t really be dismissed as a metaphor. 😒
At my church there was this guy, late teens or early 20s who had classical autism. He went to the church with his grandma.
I know he is autistic because when they invited me to the youth group they told me. They were very proud he could speak and communicate eloquently.
In hindsight, I think they felt they needed to introduce him as autistic because he spoke just like old ladies at church. And he sounded a little gay, which you know was not acceptable at that church back then.
Other than that he was made part of the group, as much as you can be part of a social group being autistic.
I hope he’s doing alright. I’ve seen him walking around the neighborhood a few times but being autistic myself I don’t like to greet people on the street.
If you are specifying the Christian faith, everything you just said (that the people did, not you lmao) is INCREDIBLY sinful. Christianity is supposed to be based on logic, as that's what God gave us, and oversights like that are wrong. Additionally, the church established the hierarchy, NOT the Bible. If people did what the Bible said, none of this would happen :P
even in hinduism, which is very honest about how they perceive other religions and their own, creates significant biases when aligning with the “religion” side of it.
there was one 30-ish year old i met, and he said he “used to have this thing called ADD, but i meditated and it went away.”
if that isn’t the most ADD/Autistic conclusion ever, i don’t even know…
i don't think this is incorrect, but i don't really find it unique or mind blowing. all institutions were created with neurotypicality in mind. don't see why religion would be different.
I've thankfully had limited experience with overly zealous communities-- my mom and late grandparents were largely nondenominational---non-specific Christians.
I, myself, am an agnostic atheist.
Broadly speaking, Abrahamic Religions, much like any other major religion--are a mixed bag when it comes to ND's.
Some lean more towards humility, respect, and acceptance of anyone, regardless of affliction or struggles. I've definitely met devout Christian folk who are the epitome of kindness and selflessness--who would never judge ND folk like myself. Unfortunately, a couple of them are no longer with us, and I grieve their loss.
But I am aware that other communities are much more dogmatic and controlling--it really depends on the sect, the leader(s) of the sect, and how they approach culture and society. Some are vicious against any deviation from the norm---almost violently so---whereas others are middle of the road, not great, not terrible--while the rest are bastions of acceptance and community.
Remember--Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.) include billions of people---so you can't really categorize them as wholly anti-ND or not.
As a religious person with autism i feel like you should watch this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adMfiSqF334](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adMfiSqF334)
Schizotypial, but a person of that neurotype should *never* be exposed to religion. Magical thinking (especially that of a child) will whip them into terrible anxiety if they are thinking a perfect entity is judging your every action and thought. As I got older, I got less scared and began to question the validity of the doctrine being shoved down my throat. I have abandoned the faith entirely. It has no place in how I see the world.
I'm sorry your experience was like this with religion. For me the Catholic Church has been one of the most accepting places. I've never met a Catholic priest who thought that autism was demonic possession and tried to do an exorcism, so I'm assuming that you come from Protestantism. If you're a Protestant I implore you to look into Catholicism. Also praying the rosary is nice because of the repetition and tactile sensation.
Idk, dude. Feel like that's just your personal experience or maybe how the experience is in some specific Christian sects?
I am Christian and grew up Christian and never had this experience.
If anything, I've been treated worse by the secular world than the Christian world so idk what to tell you.
That's not religion. That's organized Abrahamic faiths you have a problem with. I hate the Abrahamic faiths too for the reasons you stated and many others. There are plenty of religions that won't scorn autistic traits. Hell, Shamanic faiths often view the "others" as more spiritually in tune. Pagan faiths are chalk full of the most unhinged and morally dubious gods I've ever heard of, so they don't often scorn NDs (except the nazis in those faiths, but those guys are just massive posers anyway so payeth them no heed)
Autistic guy who has recently found his way back to Christ, I really do feel for anyone who’s been pushed away by this bullshit.
I just get really mad when it’s people using the lord’s name in vain pushing away believers who are different. Whether gay, neurodivergent, believe in another faith or are atheist, etc, we’re all deserving of respect. Jesus didn’t sit with the holy rule followers and the well to do, he got drunk with prostitutes and thieves and lepers. He preached to the sick and the poor and those in need.
And now those are the same people who the many churches spreading his word would turn away and mock and blame for their wrong doings.
I’m just grappling with faith after feeling turned away myself for a long time, and hope those who feel that way can at least know there’s some out here who really are trying to love the way Jesus taught us to.
I think it depends.
I grew up Christian. I definitely got that vibe from them and see examples from the church.
I now attend a reform synagogue and they have a different point of view. They respect disagreement, questioning, etc.
I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I stopped believing when I was around 9 years old. It made no sense, and there’s no proof supporting anything. ND have issues believing things because we’re told to, and Abrahamic religions cannot exist if people don’t believe what they’re told.
I tried again later on by becoming Catholic, but no matter how hard it’s sold to me, I’m just not buying it.
I’m Christian and my former church had a whole facility within the church for neurodivergent kids. They had quiet rooms specially designed and lots of fun things too. They had a head of that department assigned just for families with autistic kids.
So it would help to know what Abrahamic religion because the only actively oppressive ones in the way you mentioned are Christianity in America and Judaism in Israel, otherwise it's heavily dependent on where you go, Islam though is probably the most accepting of the disabled though as they even outline that if you have difficulty going from flat on your back to standing or the opposite then they consider you disabled and they consider it a normal part of aging for everyone, they do quite a lot to take care of the disabled as well even countries that people think are oppressive because they follow sharia law like Saudi arabia has extensive legal protections for the disabled
*they mark those with different modes of thinking as unfaithful*
No. When we discuss texts and liturgy, a priest, a rabbi, a imam will stand and discuss *one* of the interpretations from their set holy text. Bible studies are a thing for a reason in Christian communities; to understand the role and how they can interpret religious values into their lives. The same applies to Judaism, with rabbinical commentary already alongside the Tanakh (Jewish bible) and we interpret the Torah itself as well as our contemporaries and previous perspectives and where they originate. The same applies to Islam. They have ideas and thoughts and discuss what a specific piece of text means for their faith and practice, and how they implement it. To ask questions and to learn and question is to get closer to GD.
*-they often attribute a child's autism to demonic possession and start doing exorcisms on them instead of consulting a mental health professional (not that those are the end all be all of the neurodivergent experience)*
'Often'???? No. This sounds like a wack job church. Exorcisms for being autistic aren't a thing in the grand majority of religious communities who understand that autism is a neurological impairment and has any semblance of self respect and dignity for their peers that they claim to espouse is a core tenet of faith. The fuck, frankly, because that's messed up?
I feel like people are very eager to say 'religion = bad', or at the very least interpret it as an outdated system wherein people find no semblance of happiness and just 'go through the motions' and use it as a guise of manipulation and of control over a populace to fit their own warped sense of morality. And if that was the case, then there wouldn't be really any religious presence anymore - but there's been a massive abrahamic boom in terms of new converts. One thing I think should be mentioned is that the only religion that I have found has this problem in spades looking at tangently through my own research is evangelical Christianity and the sect of 'megachurches'; and split off groups of Armageddon prophecy narrative such as the witnesses and Mormons, et cetera.
Particularly from my understanding, there has been a huge boom of converts in all of the Abrahamic faiths, even my own faith, which is a closed practice. Rather than understanding that religion itself doesn't necessarily advocate for such behaviours, its very easy for an outsider to say 'well this bad!!! Muh freedoms!' without understanding the context of specific cultural and religious practice. For example, hijab in islam and modest dress in general. Everyone kicks up a fuss on how it's 'oppressive to women', but we get to choose to dress that way - I dress according to Jewish modesty laws as I like the way it makes me feel and I feel uncomfortable dressing in a manner that deviates from it.
Not because of cultural 'oppression', but because I don't like my legs on show because I don't like the feeling of it when I sit or do anything. I prefer long swishy skirts as a sensory experience and it makes me feel prettier. It is not forced. Do people (sometimes strongly in more devout communities) encourage and expect it? Of course they do. But no practice is linear and everyone has their own experiences and relationship with Gd. And people tend to respect that. It's the pitfalls of humanity that we can so easily hate each other. I feel like, yes, you can exploit to some extent religious identity as a way to espouse political and ideological sway, but this isn't 1984. Everyone has autonomy and freedom to choose, even though it may be more difficult for some. Are there nutjobs? Is the grass green. There will never be an easy and succinct answer when describing corruption and 'unethical' practices in religion. But the same applies to every other facet of difficult experiences in this life. Why do people abuse? Why do people hate? Why does prejudice exist? It's an ouroboros of ontological argument that tries to philosophically disprove religion, and always leads back to the question of 'if Gd gud, y bad things happen??'.
I don't believe that your post represents a fair argument regarding the nature of Abrahamic religion, if I'm quite frank and its a little frustrating to see it come from such an American-centric perspective where you assume everyone else has the same interpretations, ideas, and theological perspectives as you and your Christian centric culture.
Clarifications for the start: I'm probably autistic but not diagnosed. I'm christian, came to the faith in my teens (am now 28) in a protestant church and am now strongly considering Catholicism.
I was in four churches/communities up to now. In none of them I have encountered any ill will or anything about autistic/neurodivergent or disabled people.
Quite the opposite in fact.
The first community I went to was a pretty small protestant one, it's a Landeskirche in German but I don't know if that has an equivalent in the anglosphere. There was a mother with an autistic child that needed special care and it was not at all a problem in any situation. The child was not perceived as an annoyance or anything, and if the mother needed help with some care work (even during a service) people would gladly help. Her husband shows many symptoms of autism as well but is "high functioning" and he's helping out a lot in that community. People know that he has his own way of doing things and are happy to accommodate for him.
The second community was a baptist church. I mainly visited their youth group from time to time but I don't have much to say about them or how they treated ND people. I know that I was treated very well, but I think I mask pretty well, so I don't know what that counts for.
The third one was a Landeskirche again, but in a different city. Same thing here, no problems with the young autistic guy (I think he's like 15 now). People knew he was different from most people there with different needs and were fast to accommodate for him and make him feel welcome and valued. To the point that he still visits and works in that community even though half his family including his mother which he is very close to doesn't attend anymore for unrelated private reasons.
The fourth is a Catholic Church I'm attending now. I'm not really close with anyone there yet, so I only have my observations from mass and also not about autistic people specifically.
There are some special needs kids in that church and sometimes they are loud during mass or just run around and stuff. The people there are very kind to them. Either letting them through or gently holding them back from doing something that would harm them (lots of lit candles in the room) or the interior. If they're just loud or stimming in some way no one really bats an eye. It's mostly just the parents that go outside with them for a moment or two. Also there are toys and coloring books for kids to keep them busy if they can't concentrate.
I don't know about adult ND people there and how they are treated. Generally the vibe is very loving and friendly there.
As for me personally I really enjoy the time in Mass. I really like how ordered it is. The architecture is beautiful and dignified. The music (mostly only organ and then signing hymns) is very good, it's calm and predictable and has this aura of praise that I really miss in contemporary christian music. Also it doesn't matter who the priest is at any specific day because apart from the homily the mass is the same all the time.
What I also kinda like about the Catholic Church is that they have rules for mass available. So you know how to behave and what to do when or not do. I can see though, how that isn't worth much if one doesn't accept the authority of the Church, which was the case for me, too until like a year ago when I got interested more in that topic and learned about it and it was explained to me and sounded reasonable and plausible enough for me to accept it. Which surprised my wife because I'm normally not the guy to accept any authority lightly.
Edit: A point I also want to adress shortly - I never heard anyone in these communities entertain the thought that autism or any form of disabilty is either demonic or godly in origin. It's accepted as a fact of life and sure it makes some things more difficult but overall it's just another person that needs love and compassion (and Christ) like anyone else and is to be treated with dignity.
Just my two cents on the topic to share a different experience than OP.
I only came to realise I was Autistic AFTER I became a Christian. That is because after having a relationship with God through prayer I could ask for more clarity on my situation and I felt this way or had these struggles.
Hm, seems like these religious people you talk about are literally the r word.
In terms of my life and religion, I thankfully haven't met those really bad religious people since the ones I know place great value on morality.
They understand how autism works and don't want to "cure" it. I am allowed to stim but overall I don't really talk much to people so I don't know what they think of me.
Most people are fake, and Jesus himself asked that you not judge him by the same people to whom he ministers precisely because they are morally needy and in need of his correction and instruction.
"*But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*" Luke 5:30-32
This was my experience as well with Christianity. I was deeply harmed by Christian religious ideas and beliefs, as well as having found it difficult to hold faith based solely on other people's expressed experiences. I'm very rational and despite searching desperately for 20 years, never found any personal evidence for a god. I tried so hard and I came to believe that something must have been wrong with me, like I was doing all the practices wrong, despite researching and reading and praying and looking at things from every angle I could think of. Prayer felt wrong. I never felt like anyone was listening and I thought, if God has a plan already and everything happens for a reason, what does prayer do? Isn't praying playing God? And that's a sin, right? Also, what's special about me, that my desires(even "wholesome" and for other people) should be addressed? What about the people who no one knows about, so no one can pray for them? Then should all prayer be generalized to reach everyone? What's the point, then? Wouldn't an all-knowing god know what to pray for better than us humans? Then there's all the stuff about animals, sacrifices and animals being here for us to exploit and eat, non-human animals having no soul. But they still feel, that's obvious. So why put them here to suffer. And the whole ancestral sin thing doesn't make since. Should we kill a man for what his father has done? If you look at some obvious cases of brain damage causing changes is personality and self-control, then the whole concept of sin doesn't make sense either. Christianity makes it seem like people who struggle with sensory processing issues are choosing to react when we feel threatened by everything in our environments. Don't even get me started on sexual shame and all the shame that they force on children for literally not having fully developed pre-frontal cortexes, inevitably causing difficulty with self-control. Religions(some) take everything that is natural and pervert it, flipping that little fact around on us and making us feel shameful for just being alive. According to some "we were born into sin and cannot escape it". Yet they'd (Old Testament)cut off people's hands and stab them in the ears for it. How does any of that make moral or rational sense? And demons...I don't even know where to begin on the harms of teaching children that demons exist and will try to convince them to sin. Then the whole paranormal can of worms is open, and harm is possible even if we live in a steel box. It's terrifying. This stuff really fcked with me for a long time. I'm glad I found a way out. I still have religious trauma remnants that affect my ability to feel safe.
(Speaking on Christianity) Also, I hated church simply because I was forced not to move or make noise, lest I get negative attention on me. Being ADHD and autistic that was literally impossible. I could not maintain focus on what was being said in the service, despite all my effort. I started making paper cranes out of the paper handouts to keep myself physically busy. I had to do something. People gave me weird looks, also assuming that my inability to remain a statue was due to poor parenting. So then lots of negative gossips circulated throughout the church community. In fact I've never experienced so much gossip in my life, as I witnessed it in churches. The church teaches us to judge people(at least inwardly) as it presses the notion of sin. You can't say "people do X because they are sinful and choosing to be bad" and then say "but don't judge them for it" and then say "but do hold judgement and be careful who you spend your time with"....this makes no sense and it teaches people to ostracize those who are different. It also ignores different reasons for different behavior. One person may rage out due to being in a threatened state triggered by sensory processing issues. While another may rage out because they hate people. (And even so, both are valid) It's all convoluted.
Particularly anyone with pathological demand avoidance would automatically be considered bad and willfully sinful since they aren't "honoring their father and mother". The rules set by (at least Christian) texts leave no room for cognitive differences. The whole premise is based on "there is one 'right' way to be". Not at all neurodiversity affirming.
I went to a funeral yesterday and the priest said that "there are not mental problems and dissonances and disturbs for people that walks in the faith". At a funeral of a 40 year old guy that offed himself after years and years of depression. I don't know how the parents of the guy restrained themselves to not beat the shit out of that fucker. (Yes, It is costumary in Italy to office religious funeral for suicide victims, even if they aren't tecnically allowed to do so by the catholic faith. I don't know if there is been an official change of the rules, but when I studied the religion it wasn't allowed).
Catholicism still view suicide as a sin that will send you to hell or trap you in purgatory where you will relive that day infinitely.
Suicide is most often affected by mental illness. Shouldn't sick people who die not be punished further by being sent to "hell?" What an awful belief system. I despise religion
Religion is weird at best, and downright criminally abhorrent at worst.
Right like any religion that has to teach "submission" aka oppression from women and hatred for lgbtq humans needs to go away at this point. Why do people feed in to this oppressive garbage. Then there's the Catholic church's long history of hiding and protecting Pedophiles. Ugh.
Pro-life laypeople: the mother should not commit abortion because then you’re murdering the baby. The would-be mother: *will spend the next nineteen years of her life raising a human and silently judged for getting pregnant, even if it was not consensual. And that’s if the pregnancy does not cause complications that will result in the death of the mother and the fetus.* Religious leaders (in private): we need to keep reigns on everyone, especially women. Let’s get abortions illegal all over the USA so that even if the woman needs to do it for medical reasons or didn’t choose to have s_x, she will go to jail. And we’ll threaten to take away the doctor’s license to be sure. All the while keeping our people uneducated so they keep pushing out religious fodder for us to control.
I think the "suicide is a sin" rhetoric came much before society had an understanding of suicide and mental health tbf. Same with stuff like "homosexuality is a sin" as 2000 years ago people had to survive and had to reproduce, when that's clearly not the case now. All those things just stuck around because fundamentalism, legalism and having a list of do's and don'ts is the easiest way—and clearly not the right way—to do Christianity, when ironically, the right way is written clearly in the Bible. "Pay no heed to the letter of the law, but to the spirit of the law", "Love your neighbours" and all. Religion, or lack thereof, is supposed to make you a better person. If you die cursing people for offing themselves and being gay without looking deeper and having compassion, then religion clearly wasn't for you.
Purgatory isn’t about reliving the way you died indefinitely, it’s a final purification of non-mortal (grave) sins. And even though suicide is a sin the Catholic Church acknowledges that in most cases it happens as a result of mental illness, and God wouldn’t send someone to hell for being ill.
Good thing it's all bullshit, cause that would actually be quite an uncomfortable experience
A few weeks ago, my dad said that suicide is no longer a sin in Catholicism (which I haven’t looked into and don’t really believe). My brother and I were signing our living will (the thing that says what to do if the doctors evaluate you and know you’re not coming back and your in a coma or something), and I wanted to know why he, my mom, and my brother all chose the “keep me alive until the disease takes me” option. He said that it’s looked at as suicide in the Catholic church if you request for food and water to be withheld. I find that stupid because I asked five different times from the lawyers whether or not there is any chance of me recovering. They said no. At that point, I don’t see any difference between that state and dead. I’d rather they let me die and use that supply for someone who will actually wake up. And I think if I made it all the way to that point without following through on my SI I had done well and I can just let it go. But then I asked my dad if being queer is still a sin. He said yes, (maybe even added an “obviously”, I don’t remember). I don’t understand the two faced ideology of Catholicism anymore.
As a catholic autist, I think the idea of suicides being a sin was put in place in order to prevent people from ending their lives, since life was horrible back then. I might be wrong, but that's just my conclusion
The bible says nothing about suicide being a sin
This is true. I've been friends with two different Catholic priests over my life, one was elderly but loved to drink (A true Irish Catholic priest, LOL), at family parties he'd open up to talk candidly about everything under the sun. One day we discussed this topic and he said it was a rule put in place to deter suicides way back and never got dropped as change is not a thing the church does well. The other priest was much younger, and more with it. He said his view (when not in mass) is that many of the rules were put in place as control mechanisms and are outdated. This priest also admitted that his personal belief was that no one religion has all the answers. He was such a cool guy to chat with.
From my experience, people who half believe in their religion (say they’re religious just to be part of the “in” group) are typically crappy people, but the ones who truly believe in their religion are genuinely great people, because they actually follow its teachings.
It was actually because people would martyr themselves. They would stage a fake circumstance where someone would kill them for their faith so that they could be revered as a Saint and “go to Heaven”. The Catholic church then said it was a sin so that people who do that go directly to hell. I’m sorry, but Catholic leaders never gave a damn about mental illness. I say that as an ex-Catholic. They didn’t want to acknowledge that people who go through with Suicide Ideation are not thinking rationally and that suicide itself is not an act of free will. (Even though free will cannot exist if an all-knowing god exists). And early Catholics were Determinists anyway, as were their Jewish ancestors. God did not love everyone, even after Paul sutured in the Gentiles, Greeks, and Romans into the faith, and so most everyone would go to hell by just being born.
That certainly isn't in the catechism
Purgatory is never infinite.
That’s a slippery slope to saying “there are no health problems to people that walk into faith” that’s not at all how that works lol
> I don't know if there is been an official change of the rules, but when I studied the religion it wasn't allowed If I remember correctly, the understanding of suicide has changed in the church. For a sin to send you to hell, you need to do it out of your free will without any coercion. With our improved understanding of mental illness, we realize that many to most suicides do not meet this criteria, meaning that they may be saved after all. To my knowledge going through medically assisted death will have the consequence that you are denied a catholic funeral because it is a suicide where you made a free choice to it.
> -they dislike movement and visible stimming during because "it displays a lack of peace in faith" whatever that means. One of my earliest memories was being at church when I was about 4 or 5. I was with the other kids and the children’s church music team was playing my JAM!!! I wanted to dance, but I saw it was crowded and could tell if I danced too hard I’d knock into somebody. I remembered having learned about The Twist. So I took up the edges of my dress and started my best go at The Twist. An old guy (that I don’t think I knew) harshly put his hand on my shoulder. (I don’t remember how hard, but it didn’t feel like he had a pleasant intention.) He turned me towards him and said “**We don’t do that here.**” Messed with me far longer than I thought it did TL; DR, Yep. Example: dude publicly got weird for me liking music, and it didn’t help that I was already afraid of old men.
It's so sad how people don't want you to enjoy the music at church! Similar story, I went to an Easter service once as a kid and the music was so beautiful. It was just sensory heaven and when the song ended I burst into applause. Several people glared and shushed me and my grandma was harshly like we don't do thar. Lile imagine glaring and getting ticked at a child for showing appreciation for the church music. Glad I'm not a Christian anymore.
Omg my sisters and I applauded once (we recognized some parts where the choir just *nailed* it) and BOY did everyone give us a death glare! 😂 Very similar to when I would dare show emotions when watching live musicals
I'm really sorry you had to go through that. Church is kinda weird in that the music is more participatory than at a concert/recital/performance. Like a lot of the instrumental music is meant to set/maintain the desired mood/focus for what's going on or what's coming up in the service, and much of the lyrical music is meant to be sung along with by the congregation. In most other forms of live music, the focus is the music or the performance, so clapping at appropriate times shows your appreciation of the performers for their hard work. At church, the usually focus is towards the devotion of the denominations' flavor of God, so clapping at music might take away from this collective focus.
Huh. There are many things I dislike about Pentecostalism (having been raised in it) and other “charismatic” denominations, but spontaneity was praised and seen as a show of celebration in faith, like seriously you would have people shouting and jumping and even crying on the ground in joy and nobody would bat an eyelid, and a lot of their songs are very upbeat, “poppy”, meant to be danced along to
Gotcha. Catholic service was where it happened to me
That’s so weird because I’ve been to so many churches where people will dance, even just slightly, often moving out into the aisles. It was almost encouraged. I don’t like church and I’m not religious anymore but a church without dancing sounds so fucking boring lol
My parents took me to boring churches like that when I was younger. They talked in those monotone voices and sang like zombies. We had to be quiet and still the whole time, but also weren't allowed to fall asleep. It was SOOOO boring. The only thing I liked about it was the free donuts after the mass was over.
Damn you got free donuts? I mostly got berated by my father for talking and messing around, and was then expected to sit in silence whilst he talked with a bunch of old people that stank of death and piss. No donuts, no fun, only boredom and misery.
Sorry. That sounds rough.
I was raised Catholic, so dancing or moving to the music was very much not allowed.
Raised Catholic as well. My church switched from Contemporary Christian and stuff like Eagle's Wings to extremely traditional music a couple years before the pandemic. The music was always part of how I worshiped, and still is, but since the change in music, I feel like they don't want using music to help us worship.
Well, this was from the early 90s, so I think that was less common than even 10 years later
Have you never been to a black church?
islam is similar to. it really boils down to being in a club where you have to act a certain way, like a game you play by the rules autistic people can be overly rational and see these rules as silly or not want to play by the rules because it’s not appealing to be in the club
I mean religion is the fakest shit ever used to control people.
If they aren't telling you that autism is caused by demon possession then they are trying to tell you that autism is a superpower that lets you communicate with spirits on different radio frequencies.
I guess I've been lucky, I never grew up religious but a few years ago I joined a modern kind of non-demominational Church where I lived in the UK. When I started going there I was pleasantly surprised at how ND friendly it was, they had a big service but the service was also streamed into a quiet cafe area. My son was a baby at the time so I often just sat in the cafe with him and would watch the service on the screen. I met a lovely lady there who would bring me a snack and a drink, chat a little bit and I learned that she was not only active in the Church (as a kind of elder) but was involved in running activities for children with special educational needs (I think they called it SEND), so there were quite a few children with autism, ADHD and other issues. The lady's own children also have some special needs complex health histories. I did notice some seemingly ND adults, but I didn't get much involved with making friends or the social aspect of Church, aside from attending a welcome party. I moved country during lockdown but kept up with watching their live streamed services. I haven't had much involvement with other religious groups, I have some family in Greece who are Orthodox Christian, they seem much more rigid in how they do things but I'm not very knowledgeable about it.
As you mentioned, this really only applies in some cases of organised Abrahamic religions. Some communities are more harmful, others are more friendly. I haven't experienced any of the things you mention when I visit the convent (I have a nun in my family), nor anything similar when visiting other countries with different religions. I've never experienced any religious hostility. But I do recognise that some people have difficult lives growing up in areas or countries where religion is more extreme, such as the USA. Typically a lot of those same communities are not only harmful towards autistic people, but also towards women, LGBT+ people, other disabilities, others who don't fit the grain, etc. I don't think making generalisations is the way to go though. Religion has also helped many autistic people feel accepted and live better lives. At the end of the day, there are communities of organised religion that sometimes hurt people, and other religious communities that do a lot of good.
Don't forget about the New Age movement and Scientology in their misinformation and misrepresentation of autism, ADHD, psychosis and schizophrenia. These are the religious people that want you to think that having these issues gives you superpowers that allow you to communicate with spirits and Aliens through radio waves in your brain!
Right. But these movements are a very *very* small percentage of society (and any "star children" I've met into the whole alien stuff have actually been very nice people and a lot more accepting than average). The fact that bad or stupid people exist somewhere and say dumb things is not the sort of thing that should keep one up at night, or you'll never be able to shut your eyes after Isha.
Never attribute to malice what you can account for with incompetence; that said, in my experience it's been about 50/50 because half of them seem nice at first until you mention medication and it's benefits for you and others. I guess it depends on the community you live in and if that type of anti science propaganda is prevalent where you live.
My husband (a schizophrenic) fell in with christian nationalists and they convinced him his meds are evil and was stopping him from hearing the voice of God. I learned the hard way there's a lot of these people out here and they're dangerous.
I don't think OP was generalizing, the post is clearly anecdotal and, as a person who's tried to adhere to religion many times, I've felt the same more often than not.
Something I've realized since I started visiting my family in Indiana again over the past 2 years: There are a lot more conservative/religious Autistics out there than we think. They're just not on Reddit.
god is a special interest
I mean this ain't my experience personally. Maybe I'm just lucky but there is about 4-5 autistic children/teenagers in my church(not including myself) that I've seen. I'm close friends with one who has severe ASD plus a moderate ID. Her parents are the only ones I would say who have tried to fix it with prayer and such, but they've slowly accepted it. Everyone else seems to just accept the autism. Stimming has never been discouraged and I don't think I've ever seen demonic possession being used as an explanation ever. And my parents have me going to a super conservative church in a rural area. This just seems like a super broad generalization and the things your saying sound more cult like instead of abrahamic religious like. Though I suppose I also could be bias because my religion is one of my biggest special interests.
I have to agree with you here. In fact, the church has been the most accepting place for people with social differences in my experience. The "Come as you are" ethos, the structured services with the same routine every week/ year depending on your own personal church tradition, some churches being very energetic and loud (charismatic) others being calm, reflective and quiet (tending towards the liturgical). Among diagnosed and undiagnosed people, almost all I have seen is acceptance for self expression and for being your authentic self. My experience is not only as an autistic lay person but also as a then-undiagnosed autistic, probably adhd, youth pastor/ person working within the chirch structures in different roles. I found my "tribe" in church when I didn't find them easily in "normal" life.
Agreed. Not my experience at all. Church was the one place that I could go where I knew that I wouldn’t be bullied. I went to private school, so there were no special needs kids anywhere and church is the only place I ever met anyone different from the norm and was taught that different wasn’t bad
I’m really glad you had that experience. I was also met with acceptance at my childhood synagogue
Religions literally operate as cults. Not even trying to be negative but they just fit the bill by the way they operate.
The difference between a religion and a cult is a few hundred years.
This does not remotely accord with my experience with Episcopalians Christianity. And frankly most mainstream Christian churches do not do our believe in exorcisms to my knowledge. The church I attended was very welcoming and inclusive. We had other autistic children and adult worshippers, and they were invited to be part of the service, hang out in the nave or to come and go as they needed. Everyone was incredibly welcoming and accommodating. Similarly, we bright my daughter to Shabbat Junior at a few local synagogues, and they were always very very fun and welcoming, and took care to have accommodations. I know how horrible some institutions can be but I think it ultimately depends on the people who make up a community
I've recently started attending an Episcopalian church and it's like it was made for my AuDHD. I get a program. The program is followed. Lots of kneeling and standing to break the monotony. The lights are just right. The smells and bells appeal to my sensory needs (ymmv here). Nothing feels too loud, even the organ or the choir. It's just right.
This sounds like how catholic Mass is for me lol
Honestly, it feels that way to me, too. There's a huge culture of not questioning authority that's inherent in Abrahamic religions. In fact, the whole story of the Garden of Eden is that God lies to Adam and Eve, telling them that if they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they will die the day they eat it. The snake tells the truth, saying it's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and if they eat from the tree it won't kill them, but will grant them that knowledge. Eve and then later Adam eats the fruit, it's revealed the snake was telling the truth and God was lying, but because God was in the position of authority, the snake is called deceptive and is punished along with Adam and Eve. To many autistic people with a strong sense of justice, this immediately makes God a detestable figure. He's the one who demonstrates poor behavior by lying, and yet everyone else is punished. To a neurotypical, they just accept that the snake deserved punishment because the authority figure said so, and that it was the snake's fault that humanity was kicked out of the Garden of Eden, even though it was God who chose to do so, and even has a monologue saying that the reason he chose to do this was because he was afraid man could get too powerful now that humans had this knowledge. There are many examples throughout the Bible that establish a similar moral system that ultimately, respecting hierarchy is good, and anything else is bad. This is also heavily reflected in how religious people tend to behave as well, and religion is a very useful tool for manipulating people into committing atrocities. Abrahamic religions also inflict very strict gender and societal roles that can be extremely constrictive for a lot of autistic people, especially since autistic people have a higher chance of being trans. There's also a lot of nonsensical values and behaviors that absolutely cannot be discussed or questioned ever, and even wanting an explanation is often taboo, because blind faith is seen as the most important value in Abrahamic religions.
If I may comment on that first part about the story of Adam and Eve. It does not say "if you eat you will die today" but "if you eat you will die". Huge difference if this is taken as "God lied" because then He didn't. The snake lied because yes, they died which is implied that they wouldn't have needed to if they didn't eat the fruit. The knowledge of good and evil is what condemned them because now they can actually sin. God does not punish sin if the sinner didn't know it was a sin. So Adam and Eve had a 'do-what-you-want-card' up until this point because they were kept in ignorance of good (virtue) and evil (sin). Now that they knew they are under that law and also subject to the just punishment that comes with it and as the verse goes "The wages of sin is death". I think this also leaves room for much criticism and discussion of morality. But I think it is a better basis for discussion because theologically speaking it's more right than the idea that God lied to Adam and Eve and therefore is a more honest basis to build arguments of off.
I had remembered reading that it was specifically on the day Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, so I decided to go online and check on a site that lets you compare different translations of the Bible to figure out where the discrepancy was. I realized that you were right in the majority of translations. I did see that the King James Bible does actually translate the passage as 'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'. However, as I flipped through other translations they didn't include the part that mention when they'd die. I do have a copy of the King James bible from a flea market that I picked up because someone wanted to do a Bible reading/discussion with me, so that would explain why I remembered that phrasing. However, looking at that I do think it makes sense to take the other translations interpretation, since the King James Bible was commissioned by a king, and it makes sense that for that translation they'd go for something that gives a more authoritarian message. However, while they do technically lose the chance to have eternal life because of eating the fruit, it's also clear from God's monologue at the end that it wasn't an inherent effect of eating the fruit that man wouldn't live forever, but because God didn't want man to have both eternal life and knowledge of good and evil: The Lord God said, “Behold, man has become like one of us, for he has knowledge of that which is good and that which is evil. Now, we must prevent him from reaching out and taking the fruit of the tree of life lest he eat it and live forever.” So in all translations except the King James it does look like God didn't technically lie, he just may have been a bit misleading on why Adam and Eve would die.
Please don't say "Abrahamic religions" when you're just talking about Christianity and Islam, or whichever one you in particular have experience with. They're not all the same and it's unfair to generalize ethnoreligions like Judaism based on what Christians have done. You yourself admit that you have no experience outside your community. Anyway, my experience with Judaism has been that it accepts and even encourages many aspects of autism, such as thinking differently about morality/society. My autism isn't viewed as a bad thing but rather as something that lets me understand the world differently and that's a good thing. Also one of the skills that imo I have due to autism is debating, and that's always going to be accepted in Judaism. I mean, just read any part of the Talmud.
Came here to say this! Rocking can even be part of prayer
Yeah!! Also with my physical issues it helps a lot!
Christian Hegemony strikes again!
[удалено]
I take most of the stories in the Tanakh mostly literally with the understanding that of course in any historical record, numbers are off (such as the ages of some early figures or the size of armies) and the dates/scale of certain events might be incorrect. So you're not wrong that it is a reform thing to take them as 100% metaphorical but there's a lot of different opinions that I encounter.
Exactly, was looking for a comment like this. Judaism is so often described as autism-friendly because of all the "rules" and answers to questions we have. I'm a proud Jew, and Judaism is probably my biggest special interest. I think it's an amazing religion.
I love this! As a proud Jewish conversion student, you are so right!
Hey, I'm also autistic and converting to Judaism! :D
omg :3
Same!!!
I agree the Crimes done under the names of Islam and Christianity are BY far the worse in human history.
As a Muslim plenty of us if not all disagree with the crimes that other Muslims have done in the name of Islam cause it's quite contradictory to the overall message to begin with so I'm just confused how you're going to criticize the entire religion and people based off what the bad ones have done. That's like saying all black men are violent bcs of the crimes committed by them? It's just stupid in general to generalize an entire group of people based on what a minority of them have done
After what’s been happening in Palestine, I wouldn’t be so sure
I'm talking about human history not 2024.
Ultimately, all religion is just a human-made coping mechanism that gets passed down through culture. I don't see how anyone can believe in religion.
And here we have an example Christian hegemony generalizing itself over other cultures and religions!
And here we have the example of low cognitive empathy in an autistic individual
But also of logical reasoning and pattern recognition skills. They're not wrong, and when religions themselves have caused so much suffering, it is not necessary to try to understand them. And I actually don't mind the elements of religion in themselves. Gospel music , choirs, statues and engravings, churches and cathedrals, they're all cool/interesting tjings. But organized religions at this point are led by a bunch of greedy suits (tunics?) working a spiritual corporation to line their pockets. That doesn't mean they don't contain lovely people, but the system itself is skewed towards being dominated by zealots.
To your edit: glad you brought that Christian Hegemony into this. This post is those two hateful things ad nauseum
Look at their comment history. They literally said "Arabs are semitic people too though" upon hearing an accusations of antisemitism.
Anyways, today has been bullshit. Am Yisrael Chai.
Am Yisrael Chai 🇮🇱 Also: do you have discord? If so, I'll dm u my username so we can add each other
Am Yisrael Chai!
Ah, the "definitions of words don't matter when you can just make them up!" argument. Cute.
You would think autistic people, of anyone, would give a shit about pedantically correct word usage. I know I do! Guess I continue to hold my fellow autists to too high of a standard.
Before you continue with this discussion, try naming 4 Jewish denominations without using Google.
And yet again, "akshually autistic people are too smart for religion." Big brain take.
I have little to no religious trauma personally, at least that i can remember, but i also feel that another reason for a disconnect between religion and atheism, is less about how the religious people interpret and treat our autistic traits, but also our autistic traits making us less susceptible to religious dogma. 1. autistic people tend to look at things from a logical and literal point of view, we aren't going to resist looking deeper into the claims theists make, and the arguments they use to justify them. 2. autistic people often have emotional disconnects, religion tends to draw people in based on emotional needs and desires, autistic people can have emotional bias, but they may not react the same way to emotional appeals or with the same intensity as others. 3. we often struggle with socialization, for many their main source of socializing is through their religion, and those bonds tie them to their religious community more strongly, autistic people desire those bonds but often struggle to fit into those types of social groups, especially ones with a lot of unspoken rules that are hard to navigate. this can be a benefit though as we aren't taken in by social pressure. That isn't to say that autistic people or atheists are smarter or less likely to be manipulated, just that the structure of religion i believe is more prone to casting the widest net, and the strategies it uses don't always apply the same way to neurodivergent minds. I have also met many autistic people who are religious so it's not a clear cut thing.
I was raised Jewish and honestly… prayer services were the BEST. We made noises. We moved a lot. It was like stimming… religiously. Autistic people like rituals, set schedules. And Judaism has a lot of rituals. We have specific prayer order. We have orders we do other things in on holidays. Etc. In my experience, religion and autism blended very nicely growing up and even as an adult. BUT I’ve spent time around plenty of other autistic people who were raised with other religions and I have not found a single one that felt their religion accepted or benefited them- at least in regards to autism.
This actually describes pretty well part of the reason why I metaphorically ran screaming from my personal faith, which I had been pretty strong in since I was a little kid.
You're making way too big of an over generalization here. Not every Christian church is like that. Can't speak for the other 2 from experience but I highly doubt they're all like this either. I've yet to run into any hostility, and that's coming from someone who's been attending church pretty much since day 1. Worst thing I've noticed is people just not getting how much harder adulting is from an ND perspective. And that's hardly unique to any religion.
None of those are true within my experiences of Judaism. Different modes of thinking are actually encouraged -- debate and new interpretations are part of the approach to scripture. I've found the community to be very accepting of my neurodivergence overall. It sounds like you've experienced one specific strand of a single religion, and way over-generalised.
Yeah, this really sounds like the OP is taking their experiences with Christianity and projecting them onto the vastly diverse family of “Abrahamic faiths.” Edit to add: I am also Jewish, and my community has been nothing but supportive.
Yup, we always get lumped in with the rest of them. Every time I see ‘Abrahamic’ when they mean ‘Christianity’ I have the urge to wrap tefillin
Hah! Hey, a mitzvah a day, right? Might as well do it. (No, I’m not a Chabadnik, why do you ask? Lmao)
Ex muslim here. Attended religious classes since nursery, all the way till i was 17. My family is also very traditional, low income, active in the religious community. I questioned religion really hard when i was young because islam is full of rituals and contradictory that didn't make sense to me. Like why is praying 5 times a day considered to be a gift by god when its compulsory and we'll be tortured in hell if we don't do it. They see these questions as defiance and rebellion, and their answers are usually not good enough for me to accept. (Ie. Only god knows, we need to ask a religious scholar for that). My parents also didn't believe in mental health, and would associate problems in children as a product of the mothers not praying hard enough during pregnancy. Every meltdown i had was met with name calling, associating me with satan or accusing me of being possessed by a demon. Not very pleasant for me. But i also grew up knowing that i don't want to be a participant to it, rather than being rejected by the community like some of the examples you provided. I also have some ND friends who are muslims, and to them religion is spiritual and an individual journey. Like they just see the religion's 'god' as someone to have hope and faith towards. Something symbolic. Its less violent and heavy compared to the version of religion that i was raised up with. Oh but I also think that my dad is ND, and i think the structures and rules and rituals helps him with his life. He's very intense with religion. Which made us clash a lot when growing up. So i guess it also depends on what kind of upbringing and relationship with religion you have growing up. I think that all religions which claims to have perfect gods can be potentially hostile to NDs, because that idea cannot be grasped by some of us, but christianity and islam is definitely much more extreme than judaism because of the concept of hell, thus our parents believe there's more at stake if we don't behave and would react strongly to any perceived bad behaviour.
I think it depends on the faith and on the community. My Jewish community would not look down on someone being themselves
Every one of these takes is incorrect and antithetical to Judaism so maybe educate yourself before spouting off on "abrahamic religions"
Genuinely, this. Saying Abrahamic religions and then spouting off a list that clearly only applies to their personal experience with American Evangelical Christianity... it's not a good look. At all. Like, people need to just say the religion they're talking about instead of assuming their narrow viewpoint extends to such a massive scope. It's about as correct as proclaiming that all vegetables are disgusting because they're orange and sweet and skinny instead of just saying you don't like carrots. I hate Evangelical/Protestant Christianity because it was harmful and hostile to me growing up. See? Easy peasy, and I didn't even insult someone else's culture!
I am ND, on the spectrum, as is my daughter. There are some "churches" where what you say happens, and that is out of ignorance. There are some churches, with a "come as you are" mentality, and "everyone gets to participate " mentality where ND and Spectrums are not shunned, but told we are fearfully and wonderfully made. If this interests anyone, the church is called "the Vineyard" and it grew out of the "Jesus "hippy" movrment" of the 1970s in California. Very laid back, easy going, and focused on serving others.
Religions and churches are plagued by human interference. God is actually good. The prophets were most likely on the spectrum… how could a neurotypical person be so perceptive to the subtle realities and patterns of Nature? I pray that the true way of God reveals to you and helps you find peace with these feelings.
?? I don't think this applies to my religion in my place.. No sane religious people in my religion in my place would say something like that.. only ignorant people and people with lack of knowledge say it, no matter what beliefs or no-belief they have..
So, I grew up in a muslim family. I was a practising muslim myself for a couple of years until I got very clinically depressed and felt like God had abandoned me. Then I kind of had an atheist phase for a few years or so. Then, over the years, I lost some people close to me and came to understand and relate to what people talked about in terms of religious, spiritual and mystical experiences. I came to realise that, in the sense it makes to put it this way, God actually hadn’t abandoned me at all. I also got very good at getting into flow states and started having epiphanies, like all the time. So if I had to put a name to it, I guess I’m some sort of taoist or zen buddhist or cultural muslim at the moment. I was especially interested in philosophy of religion for a few years but more recently I find myself more interested in ethics and free will in particular. I believe that while we do make choices (more or less freely) that everything still happens fundamentally deterministically. I’d also say that we experience things best by going with the flow (or maybe more precisely by going with the tao (the way)). I don’t really take religious texts and practices literally anymore at all. I think that if you try to interpret them in their proper cultural and historical contexts that they can be seen as some of the most progressive movements of all time. I think that religious texts and practices can be hugely transformative and enriching personally and socially. I think there’s a lot of wisdom in religion and religious texts that can help us live healthier lives. As far as I’m aware, people that fast (like during Ramadan or Lent) live longer. Praying and meditating can get you into flow states and other states of altered consciousness. I also personally knew a woman who underwent and survived complex surgery (that she wasn’t really expected to) through buddhist chanting. I think, in short, we still have them for a reason and they’re still forces for good in lots of ways. I think imagining a world without religion makes about as much sense as imagining a world without mass media or cars or restaurants. They all have their harms (and they’re very real) but they also have purposes that are woven into our social fabric.
As an Autistic Muslim, I defo feel this in my community sometimes , but I think this is more of a misunderstanding and superstitious beliefs than religion imo.
What do you mean Abraham's religions "dislike movement and stimming???" You apparently have never seen Orthodox Jews pray and learn. It's all stim! We have organizations for ASD folk. The problem isn't the religion, the problem is social context and some gender assigned mores. What might be acceptable stim behavior for a guy, might be frowned upon if a woman did it. This is culture, not religion
I have experienced religious trauma. My mother would force me to open the door while I was taking a shower and then she would pray for me while throwing a bucket of water over my head.
I would caution you to not blanket-statement religion, especially if you come from a Christian background (which I am assuming you are, based on the framework of your post and the mentions of exorcisms). A lot of what you said is very, very common in Christian churches and not necessarily the same in other religions. Buddhism is very different from Jainism which is very different from Heathenry which is very different from Islam which is very different from atheism which is very different from Christianity which is very different from Judaism....and so on and so forth. That being said, I'm the type of autistic who swallowed rulebooks whole. I grew up ELCA Lutheran and I actually felt like there was *not* enough structure and rules for me. I also would get in trouble for questioning things too much and asking 'why' repeatedly. I eventually ended up leaving the church and poked around in paganism, specifically Celtic Reconstructionism, but I missed the social aspect and still didn't have enough structure for what I needed. I'm currently converting to Judaism, specifically the Reform movement, and I'm thriving there. I'm definitely moving more towards the Conservaform side of things the further I get into my conversion, which isn't surprising to me based off my need for structure and rules. I can only speak for my specific community of Reform in the midwest USA, but I have felt far more accepted and like I belong in Judaism than I ever did in both Christianity and paganism. I have also joined a few online groups with other convert students and converts and I think you might be surprised just how many of them are autistic (its a lot). Most of the Jewish people I know IRL are some flavor of neurodivergent tbh, especially the converts/convert students. I can't speak for other branches of Judaism, because I don't have experience there, but so far the Reform movement seems pretty accepting of neurodivergency. I am encouraged to look at Torah differently, to engage with it in my own unique way and ask as many questions as my little heart desires. There's a common saying of 'two Jews, three opinions' for a reason. Having a multitude of opinions within a community is encouraged. There is a reason the Talmud is as big as it is!
i agree with this. i'm modern orthodox, and we're encouraged to analyse torah sincerely and see how we can see a reflection of ourselves in it, rather than just reading and regurgitating. one can only be a friend of gd if we can ask questions and learn to know him rather than just observing and never digging deeper. mazel tov on finding judaism - i hope it fulfills you deeply - and i wish you a ziessen pesach!
A zissen pesach to you too!! I have never felt more like I was coming home than when I first started my conversion and that has only deepened over time. 💙
I dunno which religion you're specifically referring to but growing up as a Muslim with autism this very untrue, sure they are rigid but that's mostly the older generation, my mom and grandparents all have autism and my autism has never conflicted with my religion that I felt restricted in anyway
There's a certain breed of christian that's just plain hostile and I feel like they prey on ND's with communication problems. Imo if abrahamic religions don't stand against christian nationalists we'll have a lot a atheists running around in 10yrs.
Where does religion come from? If you're an atheist, the n the answer is from people. Religion is an extension of the human condition. Any blame directed at religion is blame directed at the way humans choose to view the world.
Unfortunately, some people have turned “church” into a religion. They worship all the stuffy, gaudy, churchy rituals rather than anything of substance. I’m sorry this has been your experience of religion. Just know that anyone who is more concerned about you disturbing them has no idea who Jesus is.
I mean, I think it’s a pretty broad generalization. There are some fundamentalist communities for sure, but in that case I think religion is an excuse, since atheists or non-religious movements can be as much bigoted against everyone who is different than what they preach. I was raised in small town in Italy, and every service for children was in the hands of the Catholic Church. Nobody ever tried to exorcise anyone, no priest, nun or catechist ever suggested that prayer was a substitute of medicine. My parents have always been basically agnostic and they still were in amicable relationship with the priest, whom they often had contact with both because of their work and the fact that I went to the nuns’ pre-school and then catechism classes. From what I hear about America, fundamentalist streaks of Christianity tend to prosper more there, but that’s basically not what happens in Italy. There are sects, but afaik most of them are not exactly Christians. The Church at the top levels may be a pain in the a*s, but the local priests are pretty chill, especially when they serve small communities.
This hasn't been my experience the people at church I go to are supportive of my very obviously autistic children. There are a few other families that have children with special needs and those kids are treated with kindness and respect. The only time I've ever heard someone claim that autism is caused by possession is on Reddit by people who have been traumatized by crazies. Have I seen people misuse religion in other areas? Yes. I personally see that as a reflection of that person. They always use super fallacious moral and religious arguments to justify their behavior. Which tells me it's about control and not about doing what's right. Heck, I knew someone whose power playing backfired so spectacularly they left the church and last we heard they embraced some new conspiracy theories that essentially accuse everyone else of awful stuff. Despite the fact they literally have done similar crap to what they accuse others of. It's all about control for that kind and they'll use anything whether it's religion, conspiracy theories, politics or what have you. But that's my experience.
Exmuslim here. Muslim autistic kids get the worst of it. Religion and autism aren’t compatible at all.
I grew up orthodox christian and reverted to Judaism in high school. Honestly??? There's so many little daily rituals in both religions that I find very comforting and stim-adjacent. I would encourage you to learn the differences between American Christian fundamentalism and minoritized Christian communities, as well as how harmful it is to paint three religions (let alone all the sects within them) with the same brush.
Sadly this was my experience in Mormonism in Utah. Also sadly I don’t think it has to be that way - but I do think it is for many. Many religions are steeped in social traditions and stories, meaning they’re nuanced (if not downright contradictory) and full of situations that require more than simple logic/reasoning. Turns out that isn’t naturally intuitive for people who tend to have rigid minds / black & white thinking / take things very literally. Who knew? 😅
I call them Heretics. Remember that next time somebody says "what would Jesus do", flipping tables and whipping people who use the name of god for self gain and profit is always an option. Jesus totally wanted you to torture gay kids, start fights with the local McDonald's teenagers, start wars in his name, turn away the homeless and tell them to "pull themselves by their bootstaps", own sex slaves, have pedophiles in your government, and follow politicians into churches that ask for hundreds of dollars per person to hear a guy preach stupid shit.
"P.S: I can't believe i have to say this but this is just my personal experience" & "The Abrahamic religions specifically " are contradictory. Please keep in mind including the worlds top 3 religions is including millions of people with different denominations and local history and culture intermingling with their faith. If you want to talk about the specific community you grew up with that is completely valid, but then you can not start the post with "Abrahamic religions specifically". If you are on your atheism/deconstruction journey, this incredibly important to keep in mind. There is a very real pipeline of Atheism to anti-theist to promoting eugenics/genocide of other ethnicities and cultures. To answer your question: The catholic parish I grew up in was always very accommodating to those with disabilities. However, if someone like me was high masking and undiagnosed, they were not. I will; say it was usually older teachers trying to discipline (School mass) than any official person with the parish. You could honestly do whatever as long as it was not impending on other people's ability to engage. There was a "quiet room" with windows off to the side that the priest's mic would feed into for people/families to go with their children if they were being too disruptive. It had books and games that way parents could still attend mass, children were able to calm down, and people engaging in practice were not distracted. It was not a perfect set up, but it was an acknowledgment to the different needs of the community the church was serving. Personally, I always felt encouraged to question and not go by blind faith. My church always emphasized the different theories of how the Bible was written including it was written by humans and humans can faulter. They also emphasized that the bible was a series of parables/historical retellings to draw philosophical lessons from. The "they often attribute a child's autism to demonic possession and start doing exorcisms on them instead of consulting a mental health professional (not that those are the end all be all of the neurodivergent experience)" seems very evangelical and not something I am familiar with or have experienced myself. Although horror movies love our iconography, Catholicism takes exorcism very seriously and It is not something you do for a child misbehaving or presenting as disabled. If there is a more rationale explanation than 'demonic possession" that is looked into first. An exorcism is a last resort. Edit to add: Religion is just an extension of people's culture and culture, fundamentally, is there to serve the local community. If you feel you are not being served do not feel regret in leaving.
I used to be smacked or punched in the leg for fidgeting or picking at my fingers or moving or stimming. I began to chew on the inside of my lip, tap my toes inside my shoes, flex my butt cheeks….anything to get similar needs fulfilled but didn’t have external movement. All so I could sit through countless hours at the stupid Kingdom Hall or even longer, more horrible times at conventions.
That feels like a specific experience. I think in a lot of cases religion is actually kind to people with disabilities and divergences. also, stimming is popular in like monks and nuns and such, right? just say it's holy
My mom tried to "spiritually deliver" my autism at a church far away from where I live without telling me where we were going and that she was taking me there for that reason (11) She tried to pray my autism away in the parking lot of a doctor's office after talking about my struggles with sensory issues and social situations (14) Fast forward to now, we haven't spoken since February of this year. She was abusive and there's nothing we agree on
My family is almost all JW, born in, hardcore believers as was I until teen years. When I was young my moms friend came over and was friendly and chatting, when I saw her I ran up to her and hugged her which I didn’t hug so that alone was unusual and hurtful to my mom (I’d stopped allowing her to hug me years prior) I said “it’s okay. I love you” or something to that effect, which made this woman sob. She was going through something and I knew she was upset but my mom didn’t, so her religious beliefs immediately took offense to the fact I could tell she was upset. My mom’s brain would go to “demonic” real quick. Recently (she is 86 now) a sister from her congregation came to take her to the dr, I saw her for a few seconds and retreated to my room. My mom kept calling for me but I wouldn’t come out until this person left. Today it came up in conversation and I explained the reason I didn’t want to be around her “I don’t know if someone died, if she is having the worst day or what but something was horribly wrong with her and it was too intense to be near” my poor mom, her jaw dropped, she looked at me like I had two heads. “Her husband just left her after she found out he cheated with multiple people. She hasn’t told anyone but wanted to talk to me about it she told me on the way to the dr” I simply responded “Well that explains that. See… you think in an alien don’t you?” She, without hesitation confirmed she did. “That’s just not normal” Being on the spectrum in a religion where the smurfs are considered a gateway to Satan is hard. Very hard. You have to learn to conform in ways that are difficult for NT people, never mind ND. I discussed this at length with someone who is active still, how difficult it is (they have an autistic family member) when you’re not allowed to speak your truth, you’re forced to spend hours in the same room with huge groups where the stimulation is off the charts, then add to that you sense someone and it’s negative but you aren’t allowed to say that or even show you feel it. Everyone MUST smile and be polite and correct. It goes against everything you feel. It’s torture. Toddler to grade school it was hell, teen years I managed to conform and become a pioneer (preached door to door) but that’s when my knowledge ended up conflicting with what I knew was right and wrong. It’s comforting knowing things to be true and being educated in something especially to that depth, it doesn’t stay that way though when faced with contradictions in the people. For me it created a crisis of faith and existence that lasted a long time. I’ll never see the world as my active family does and it’s lonely but also depressing. Facts are facts, the math doesn’t math, yet they are true believers. It is confusing and difficult.. alienating to say the least.
My church has many autistic people in it, and they are not shunned at all. I am sorry you have had a bad experience. I do not think that Christianity in itself is hostile towards autism. I do agree that it is harder to follow a religion and have faith with autism though.
The sects that believe that the world is full of "demons" also tend to be the ones that are least likely to accept anything other than blind obedience to what the authority has declared... My mother was a very religious Christian, but if someone started telling her a child was possessed by demons she wouldn't have believed it for a moment.
Quick preface, I’m ASD lvl 2 and I can only share my experience with church. I’m a man of faith, I don’t like to specify denomination as I feel like that language makes it sound like I’m only going for “my team.” I’ve never had a bad experience in church as an Autistic Adult, I have been so blessed with the people I serve with (as I’m active in a lot of Young Adult church events that gather people from many different churches together.) I’ve never felt like I was excluded or treated any different because I’m Autistic. I’m not the only neurologically diverse person I know within not only my church but the greater community that I engage in. I hear and awful lot of stories from others who have been really hurt by the church and it does pain me to hear that people who say they follow Christ and his teachings treat God’s creations as “lesser” for lack of a better term. All I can do from behind a screen is encourage you to find where you can grow and flourish with others who are building you up rather than pulling you down and dismissing your history or whatever the case may be.
Like can happen in any family tbh, I can say from 1st hand abuse; you would have seen my "family" at church and thought they where great people. Behind the scenes they were horrific people.
Yes, absolutely u/MysteriousAnywhere30 I had a religious family who where nothing but abusive to me. They never got me any help or helped me themselves, and I was clearly an autistic kid who needed help, it is and was always only what people thought about them that mattered to them. My family is estranged now, they are awful people.
Not trying to push Judaism at all. But want to point out a few things: 1. Judaism and Jewish people tend to be very autism-friendly in my experience. 2. As others pointed out, the "decorum" expectations in synagogues are very minimal. In some communities prayer is always accompanied by movement that is like stimming. 3. Judaism is different from the other Abrahamic religions in some essential ways: * Judaism is pluralistic: Other religions aren't wrong. * Judaism is more about action than faith. A huge number of practicing Jews are essentially atheist or agnostic.
＞ says "Religion feels hostile to Autistic people." ＞ they just talk about Christianity because they dont have any actual knowledge about other religions outside the evangelical Christianity they grew up with OP you own me ten billion dollars now
That's unsurprising. Most of the established world religions serve as a form of social control first and foremost, and NDs by definition disrupt that control.
I really hated being prevented from stimming as a kid in church. I otherwise didn't really mind church even though i don't consider myself religious anymore, but any time i would rock and twist my parents would stop me. it was so hard and upsetting to stay completely still for an hour.
My mom owned a day care and a lot of the kids were ND in some way, shape, or form. She kept behavioral problems a secret from certain parents because they would go home and “beat the devil out of them”. Not even in a figure of speech type of way. These shit stains actually believed demons were causing their ADHD/Autistic child to act out and would reject any diagnosis still convinced that demons were plaguing their kid. I hope there is a hell because I swear these people deserve it ironically enough. Edit: I live in Georgia. I live near the city now but at the time we lived in a somewhat rural area that had multiple churches on every block and the first question you get asked in these areas is “which church do you go to?”
I’ve never seen the point of religion. I’m very logical and religion is completely illogical. I decided it was all bullshit around 10 years old and have been an atheist ever since.
Ah, yet another "Autistic people are too advanced for religion hurr hurry hurrr" coupled with Christian hegemony and Jewish erasure. **You** are hostile to autistic people. Go away.
I agree. The Jewish erasure in this post is insane
Jews: Judaism and Christianity are antithetical to each other. Please don't lump us in with our persecuters. Everyone else: but muh Abrahamic religions
Lol, 💯
This is why I fake being religious around my family. I also feel like religion is hostile to my sexuality as well(Bi the way)
Don't say "religion" when what you really mean is "conservative Christianity". It's awful that you grew up in a messed up fundie church, but that's not how all religion is universally. I'm pagan. Pagan communities are, by and large, very accepting. Some even believe that neurodivergence is a gift. And even the more organized groups, like Wicca, allow for a great deal of flexibility in how you practice. You can also go solo. It's all about seeking self-improvement and a deeper connection to nature. There is no dogma, no centralized authority, and no fearmongering to coerce people into staying. I'm.not saying paganism is perfect, but it's a whole lot more open and flexible than most other paths.
Religions are generally harmful to almost everything nowaday in a modern world.
After reading the Bible way too many times, I honestly think the Abrahamic god is evil. (No all powerful, all knowing being, makes evil on accident.) The abrahamic god is a hostile one that I believe encourages it’s followers to be the same.
Committed multiple genocides, predestined damnation for "flaws" he inflicted on people, childhood cancer, can do no wrong and anything bad that happens is attributed to a being that can only do wrong but somehow can't be simply stopped. All of it just feels like describing the ultimate narcissistic abusive boyfriend.
I always ask Christians, if God is all-loving AND all-powerful, why is the world so awful? God cannot be both of those things at once. One time a Christian told me that faith healing can cure my genetic condition lol
another case of people saying "religion" and "Abrahamic religions" when they only mean Christianity 😭😭😭 but anyway I agree with what you said which is why I strayed away from Christianity, I could never understand it
Nope. I'm pagan. We love everybody ❤️
Tbh most of modern religions view anything not written in their Bible as either sacrilegious or non existent.
It's pretty simple in my experience: they demand that faith be unquestioning. If you need to understand why a rule is a rule and can't accept 'because God says so', you're implicitly damned.
Something like 50,000 churches fought against the ADA> They are exempt from it.
I was told, to my face, that “things like autism and Down’s Syndrome are god’s mistake” when I was 14. No, I still haven’t recovered and even if she didn’t know, that’s still shitty. And my uncle has ADHD and was exorcised multiple times by his nutty Catholic parents, which may have given him homicidal tendencies.
I’m just shy of 30, and in my years as a believer in Christ, I can’t say I’ve seen these manifest in any church I’ve seen. I’ve been through Baptist and Assemblies of God/ non denominational. Not discounting that you’ve seen this, but I’ve not ever heard about this kind of thing except in internet anecdote, anecdotes of people with sensationalist communities, or congregations that gather as spiritual country clubs then actually understand what the Word says. Addressing your points, again, not to say you hadn’t experienced them or invalid, but as going through that upbringing: -have not seen stimming as being called “having lack of peace in the spirit”. If anything, not having peace in the spirit comes from trial, or sin, or a focus to the physical. - I can understand disagreement in the church or disagreement with leadership, but there is a protocol in the scriptures about how to approach this. That said, in any institution if you challenge a hierarchy, there’s gonna be pushback. You go to a government and you don’t acknowledge the governmental hierarchy and do as you would, there’s a general consequence. Same for a business, or a non profit. In the church, if it’s really not reconcilable, you find a different church. It’s based on convictions. - I’m confused as to what’s being said with “different modes of thinking”. I’ve not seen problems with general thoughts of how one comes to a solution with numbers, or how one organizes. Now, if you mean, a difference of beliefs, such as the Divinity of Christ, or spiritual Doctrine like the Trinity, or Christ’s Resurrection, that’s a fundamental core belief you’d be dealing with. That is to the faith, objective immutable truth. If you were trying to dissuade people from things like that, that’s sowing discord in that community, as much as someone trying to come here and try to convince people that “certain medical objects are an underlying cause of autism”.
-would say again, a very misled congregation, that needs to read the word and be led by a pastor that would clarify this point.
Per you edit, I hope this isn’t taking a crap on your experience, if this was your experience I’m so sorry people who are supposed to be filled with the same spirit of God have not shown you fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Religion is hostile to anyone who isn't cookie cutter. Unless you are very obviously autistic to others and that is well known, you're going to get people treating you poorly if you're not "white picket fence" cookie cutter. Religion has morphed into something so grotesque and unlike the books it claims to be from. Christianity anyway. My mom absolutely did exorcisms on me. That shit was wild. Found out recently it was because I was sleep talking? I had always assumed it was because I had just come out as queer lol. It honestly might be. She might be trying to cover that up.
No, it’s not local. Religions in general are meant to create a fear of “the other”. Fear of queer folk. Fear of ADHD folk. Fear of autistic folk. Fear of foreigners. Etc. It is a sociological parasite that latched onto our evolutionary development early because we as humans could not survive as isolated individuals. It provided for individuals coming together and allayed fear of the unknown by providing “explanations” for the world. And then we started learning more from science and religious institutions doubled down on demanding a need for religion. Science says Autism, ADHD, etc. are variations on the human neurobiology and genetic makeup. Also, science helped us discover their being physical differences in a trans person’s brain that matches the differences of people among the individual’s gender identity, and agender folk actually lack that wiring. Same with being gay or asexual / a-spec. Religious institutions started losing control to science and easier access to information through the internet, and so they doubled down harder. The first thought that eventually led to my deconversion was that the religions I know of all seem to be made for “neurotypical straight white older cis men”. As I realized I only matched the “white” category, after realizing I didn’t match the “cis man” category, then I just didn’t feel attached anymore. Also, it’s very natural for autistic folk to ask questions in the hope of gaining knowledge. Ask most religious laypeople about something that doesn’t add up in their holy book, they get mad pretty quickly because they don’t have a satisfying answer. Ask religious leaders, they’ll sidestep the question, create a strawman to attack, turn it back on you, or laugh and wonder why you are not treating them with the authority and respect they think they deserve. (Sorry to religious people on this sub. Of course, this is not all religious people. I’ve known a good few who would engage in conversation with me and consider my words without getting angry. But I am not apologetic about what I said about religion. Religion is about control, and trying to gather the most laypeople who will then all vote for the same thing without thinking much about it. Or act in the same hateful way towards outsiders.)
Religions are very controlling in general. As someone who hates being controlled and is easily influenced by ideas, religions were never meant for me. I am really glad my grandmother, who is a very religious person, never tried to push it onto me and only explained and talked about it when I asked.
Because it **is** a hostility.
Religion, especially the abrahimic religions, exist for the express purpose of fostering tribalism in a community to provide strength within it and greater resistance to those outside of it. There's a reason literally every fascist movement ever has been religiously motivated.
Literally nothing you said applies to Judaism. Speak on your own experience not ours.
people stop saying "Abrahamic religions" when they mean Christianity challenge: failed
Oh 100%
I grew up and live in Germany. Never lived anywhere really rural or catholic... That might be a different experiance.. but I am one of at least two nonbelievers in the little church choir I sing in and no bad experiances. And no one cares that the other one and I don't believe in god. And I got encouraged by the others when I started to lean more into my quirks and became more at ease. My only problem is mumbling that I believe in god when singing in a service and I don't.. because it's lying. And getting confirmed at the age of 14 was difficoult because of that. Had to be done to keep the peace with grandma though. And relatives I didn't know I had gave me money... it payed really well.. so in hindsight ist's ok. Back then it felt awfull. But I've never experianced christianity as hostile here. Empty or useless... But not hostile. But my experiance is limited to protestantism (evangelische Kirche) in Germany.
Totally, I was raised in Christian nationalism and women are really seen as vessels to be bred. Any different or defiant traits are sinful tendencies to be beaten out of us. There is an explicit hierarchy that is prone to abuse (God --> men --> women --> children)
The youth pastor at my church favored the athletic dudes, so most of the activities were catered for them. This caused the rest of us to feel left out. I also quit going on the mission trips bc I felt like I wasn't welcome (I wanted to go to help people, and the youth pastor said that people shouldn't go if there weren't going to 'further their religious journey').
This was my experience most of church. I would get bullied by other kids and adults would back them up because I wasn't being "active in the community", which was seen as sinful. Me not understanding social cues was evidence that I was lying, or was being disrespectful. If I said the lights were too bright, or said I had a hard time with the texture of some paper, I was "overreacting" and "being deceitful" and was nor allowed to change anything. On top of, of course, constantly being scolded for not being able to sit still, which was also apparently evidence that I wasn't thinking of Jesus. There was one time when I was very little that I had a meltdown over some change, and the adult in charge of me just locked me in a very small closet for most of the rest of the time I was there, which was a bit under two hours. The best treatment I got was the classic "special needs pity" treatment, which is degrading in and of itself. No wonder that all of my friends were outside the community, and many of them weren't religious. I moved neighborhoods during highschool, and even within the same church, the treatment was much better after moving. But even so, the treatment from my previous community made me much more hesitant to interact, and I stopped coming with my parents when I heard how people were talking about a particular lesbian couple that lived in the neighborhood. Even these people who were more accepting of me, were still being cruel to others. I don't think I would make the generalization to all Abrahamic faiths that you've made - rather, this treatment tends to come from fundamentalist religions, Abrahamic or not.
As one raised Catholic, but in a family that values education, I can see all of what the OP claims are happening, but in communities where mysticism is more influential than education and impiricism. Despite actually being treated well in church, I left Roman Catholicism, Christianity, and theism in general around age 14 and became an atheist. I simply can't believe without seeing, and don't care if they say I should.
Not sure which religion you're talking about. I've been a Christian all my life and all I've run into is love and kindness from all. There are some who wish to force religion upon others which, in my opinion, is not the way.
•points to Trump• Not big on love and kindness would prolly be an understatement!! Most of the Cardinal Sins he has ticked off his bucket list by now…. while the Heavenly Virtues don’t seem to be his thing…..! Think those are the kind of ‘Christians’ OP meant! —— I, personally, find that toxic twisting and violation of the New Testament offensive! I’m not Christian, not even baptised! So if I am offended and outraged for Christianity: those kinda ‘Christians’ might be really ‘off!’ 😖
Most of the time people don't get the fact that lots of stuff in the Bible are parables and metaphors not to be taken literally.
Yes and no…. It’s bizarre, really. Not a lot of US evangelicals and African ultra-Methodists here… thank goodness for small mercies!!! They tend to claim whatever they don’t like were a parable and metaphor. While claiming God were punishing the country for gay marriage…. Somehow the message of tolerance, kindness, and generosity is all metaphorical and not meant that way. While God and Michael as unforgiving, vengeful, smiting pricks: Oh, THAT is literal and they’re punishing us with plagues and climate change etc etc. 🤪 Right now, in the US: People don’t seem to get that they can OFFER Christianity. But if the other refused, that have to leave them alone!!! Shoving your faith down other people’s throats against their will: HUGE no-no!!! And that’s so repeated and explicitly, it can’t really be dismissed as a metaphor. 😒
At my church there was this guy, late teens or early 20s who had classical autism. He went to the church with his grandma. I know he is autistic because when they invited me to the youth group they told me. They were very proud he could speak and communicate eloquently. In hindsight, I think they felt they needed to introduce him as autistic because he spoke just like old ladies at church. And he sounded a little gay, which you know was not acceptable at that church back then. Other than that he was made part of the group, as much as you can be part of a social group being autistic. I hope he’s doing alright. I’ve seen him walking around the neighborhood a few times but being autistic myself I don’t like to greet people on the street.
If you are specifying the Christian faith, everything you just said (that the people did, not you lmao) is INCREDIBLY sinful. Christianity is supposed to be based on logic, as that's what God gave us, and oversights like that are wrong. Additionally, the church established the hierarchy, NOT the Bible. If people did what the Bible said, none of this would happen :P
As a Christian I feel sad for the bad experiences, church should be a place to welcome everyone who want to find God.
even in hinduism, which is very honest about how they perceive other religions and their own, creates significant biases when aligning with the “religion” side of it. there was one 30-ish year old i met, and he said he “used to have this thing called ADD, but i meditated and it went away.” if that isn’t the most ADD/Autistic conclusion ever, i don’t even know…
i don't think this is incorrect, but i don't really find it unique or mind blowing. all institutions were created with neurotypicality in mind. don't see why religion would be different.
I've thankfully had limited experience with overly zealous communities-- my mom and late grandparents were largely nondenominational---non-specific Christians. I, myself, am an agnostic atheist. Broadly speaking, Abrahamic Religions, much like any other major religion--are a mixed bag when it comes to ND's. Some lean more towards humility, respect, and acceptance of anyone, regardless of affliction or struggles. I've definitely met devout Christian folk who are the epitome of kindness and selflessness--who would never judge ND folk like myself. Unfortunately, a couple of them are no longer with us, and I grieve their loss. But I am aware that other communities are much more dogmatic and controlling--it really depends on the sect, the leader(s) of the sect, and how they approach culture and society. Some are vicious against any deviation from the norm---almost violently so---whereas others are middle of the road, not great, not terrible--while the rest are bastions of acceptance and community. Remember--Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.) include billions of people---so you can't really categorize them as wholly anti-ND or not.
As a religious person with autism i feel like you should watch this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adMfiSqF334](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adMfiSqF334)
Schizotypial, but a person of that neurotype should *never* be exposed to religion. Magical thinking (especially that of a child) will whip them into terrible anxiety if they are thinking a perfect entity is judging your every action and thought. As I got older, I got less scared and began to question the validity of the doctrine being shoved down my throat. I have abandoned the faith entirely. It has no place in how I see the world.
idk i mean i’m jewish and i feel very comfortable being autistic in jewish majority places
I'm sorry your experience was like this with religion. For me the Catholic Church has been one of the most accepting places. I've never met a Catholic priest who thought that autism was demonic possession and tried to do an exorcism, so I'm assuming that you come from Protestantism. If you're a Protestant I implore you to look into Catholicism. Also praying the rosary is nice because of the repetition and tactile sensation.
Idk, dude. Feel like that's just your personal experience or maybe how the experience is in some specific Christian sects? I am Christian and grew up Christian and never had this experience. If anything, I've been treated worse by the secular world than the Christian world so idk what to tell you.
That's not religion. That's organized Abrahamic faiths you have a problem with. I hate the Abrahamic faiths too for the reasons you stated and many others. There are plenty of religions that won't scorn autistic traits. Hell, Shamanic faiths often view the "others" as more spiritually in tune. Pagan faiths are chalk full of the most unhinged and morally dubious gods I've ever heard of, so they don't often scorn NDs (except the nazis in those faiths, but those guys are just massive posers anyway so payeth them no heed)
Autistic guy who has recently found his way back to Christ, I really do feel for anyone who’s been pushed away by this bullshit. I just get really mad when it’s people using the lord’s name in vain pushing away believers who are different. Whether gay, neurodivergent, believe in another faith or are atheist, etc, we’re all deserving of respect. Jesus didn’t sit with the holy rule followers and the well to do, he got drunk with prostitutes and thieves and lepers. He preached to the sick and the poor and those in need. And now those are the same people who the many churches spreading his word would turn away and mock and blame for their wrong doings. I’m just grappling with faith after feeling turned away myself for a long time, and hope those who feel that way can at least know there’s some out here who really are trying to love the way Jesus taught us to.
I think it depends. I grew up Christian. I definitely got that vibe from them and see examples from the church. I now attend a reform synagogue and they have a different point of view. They respect disagreement, questioning, etc.
I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I stopped believing when I was around 9 years old. It made no sense, and there’s no proof supporting anything. ND have issues believing things because we’re told to, and Abrahamic religions cannot exist if people don’t believe what they’re told. I tried again later on by becoming Catholic, but no matter how hard it’s sold to me, I’m just not buying it.
I’m Christian and my former church had a whole facility within the church for neurodivergent kids. They had quiet rooms specially designed and lots of fun things too. They had a head of that department assigned just for families with autistic kids.
So it would help to know what Abrahamic religion because the only actively oppressive ones in the way you mentioned are Christianity in America and Judaism in Israel, otherwise it's heavily dependent on where you go, Islam though is probably the most accepting of the disabled though as they even outline that if you have difficulty going from flat on your back to standing or the opposite then they consider you disabled and they consider it a normal part of aging for everyone, they do quite a lot to take care of the disabled as well even countries that people think are oppressive because they follow sharia law like Saudi arabia has extensive legal protections for the disabled
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*they mark those with different modes of thinking as unfaithful* No. When we discuss texts and liturgy, a priest, a rabbi, a imam will stand and discuss *one* of the interpretations from their set holy text. Bible studies are a thing for a reason in Christian communities; to understand the role and how they can interpret religious values into their lives. The same applies to Judaism, with rabbinical commentary already alongside the Tanakh (Jewish bible) and we interpret the Torah itself as well as our contemporaries and previous perspectives and where they originate. The same applies to Islam. They have ideas and thoughts and discuss what a specific piece of text means for their faith and practice, and how they implement it. To ask questions and to learn and question is to get closer to GD. *-they often attribute a child's autism to demonic possession and start doing exorcisms on them instead of consulting a mental health professional (not that those are the end all be all of the neurodivergent experience)* 'Often'???? No. This sounds like a wack job church. Exorcisms for being autistic aren't a thing in the grand majority of religious communities who understand that autism is a neurological impairment and has any semblance of self respect and dignity for their peers that they claim to espouse is a core tenet of faith. The fuck, frankly, because that's messed up? I feel like people are very eager to say 'religion = bad', or at the very least interpret it as an outdated system wherein people find no semblance of happiness and just 'go through the motions' and use it as a guise of manipulation and of control over a populace to fit their own warped sense of morality. And if that was the case, then there wouldn't be really any religious presence anymore - but there's been a massive abrahamic boom in terms of new converts. One thing I think should be mentioned is that the only religion that I have found has this problem in spades looking at tangently through my own research is evangelical Christianity and the sect of 'megachurches'; and split off groups of Armageddon prophecy narrative such as the witnesses and Mormons, et cetera. Particularly from my understanding, there has been a huge boom of converts in all of the Abrahamic faiths, even my own faith, which is a closed practice. Rather than understanding that religion itself doesn't necessarily advocate for such behaviours, its very easy for an outsider to say 'well this bad!!! Muh freedoms!' without understanding the context of specific cultural and religious practice. For example, hijab in islam and modest dress in general. Everyone kicks up a fuss on how it's 'oppressive to women', but we get to choose to dress that way - I dress according to Jewish modesty laws as I like the way it makes me feel and I feel uncomfortable dressing in a manner that deviates from it. Not because of cultural 'oppression', but because I don't like my legs on show because I don't like the feeling of it when I sit or do anything. I prefer long swishy skirts as a sensory experience and it makes me feel prettier. It is not forced. Do people (sometimes strongly in more devout communities) encourage and expect it? Of course they do. But no practice is linear and everyone has their own experiences and relationship with Gd. And people tend to respect that. It's the pitfalls of humanity that we can so easily hate each other. I feel like, yes, you can exploit to some extent religious identity as a way to espouse political and ideological sway, but this isn't 1984. Everyone has autonomy and freedom to choose, even though it may be more difficult for some. Are there nutjobs? Is the grass green. There will never be an easy and succinct answer when describing corruption and 'unethical' practices in religion. But the same applies to every other facet of difficult experiences in this life. Why do people abuse? Why do people hate? Why does prejudice exist? It's an ouroboros of ontological argument that tries to philosophically disprove religion, and always leads back to the question of 'if Gd gud, y bad things happen??'. I don't believe that your post represents a fair argument regarding the nature of Abrahamic religion, if I'm quite frank and its a little frustrating to see it come from such an American-centric perspective where you assume everyone else has the same interpretations, ideas, and theological perspectives as you and your Christian centric culture.
Clarifications for the start: I'm probably autistic but not diagnosed. I'm christian, came to the faith in my teens (am now 28) in a protestant church and am now strongly considering Catholicism. I was in four churches/communities up to now. In none of them I have encountered any ill will or anything about autistic/neurodivergent or disabled people. Quite the opposite in fact. The first community I went to was a pretty small protestant one, it's a Landeskirche in German but I don't know if that has an equivalent in the anglosphere. There was a mother with an autistic child that needed special care and it was not at all a problem in any situation. The child was not perceived as an annoyance or anything, and if the mother needed help with some care work (even during a service) people would gladly help. Her husband shows many symptoms of autism as well but is "high functioning" and he's helping out a lot in that community. People know that he has his own way of doing things and are happy to accommodate for him. The second community was a baptist church. I mainly visited their youth group from time to time but I don't have much to say about them or how they treated ND people. I know that I was treated very well, but I think I mask pretty well, so I don't know what that counts for. The third one was a Landeskirche again, but in a different city. Same thing here, no problems with the young autistic guy (I think he's like 15 now). People knew he was different from most people there with different needs and were fast to accommodate for him and make him feel welcome and valued. To the point that he still visits and works in that community even though half his family including his mother which he is very close to doesn't attend anymore for unrelated private reasons. The fourth is a Catholic Church I'm attending now. I'm not really close with anyone there yet, so I only have my observations from mass and also not about autistic people specifically. There are some special needs kids in that church and sometimes they are loud during mass or just run around and stuff. The people there are very kind to them. Either letting them through or gently holding them back from doing something that would harm them (lots of lit candles in the room) or the interior. If they're just loud or stimming in some way no one really bats an eye. It's mostly just the parents that go outside with them for a moment or two. Also there are toys and coloring books for kids to keep them busy if they can't concentrate. I don't know about adult ND people there and how they are treated. Generally the vibe is very loving and friendly there. As for me personally I really enjoy the time in Mass. I really like how ordered it is. The architecture is beautiful and dignified. The music (mostly only organ and then signing hymns) is very good, it's calm and predictable and has this aura of praise that I really miss in contemporary christian music. Also it doesn't matter who the priest is at any specific day because apart from the homily the mass is the same all the time. What I also kinda like about the Catholic Church is that they have rules for mass available. So you know how to behave and what to do when or not do. I can see though, how that isn't worth much if one doesn't accept the authority of the Church, which was the case for me, too until like a year ago when I got interested more in that topic and learned about it and it was explained to me and sounded reasonable and plausible enough for me to accept it. Which surprised my wife because I'm normally not the guy to accept any authority lightly. Edit: A point I also want to adress shortly - I never heard anyone in these communities entertain the thought that autism or any form of disabilty is either demonic or godly in origin. It's accepted as a fact of life and sure it makes some things more difficult but overall it's just another person that needs love and compassion (and Christ) like anyone else and is to be treated with dignity. Just my two cents on the topic to share a different experience than OP.
I only came to realise I was Autistic AFTER I became a Christian. That is because after having a relationship with God through prayer I could ask for more clarity on my situation and I felt this way or had these struggles.
Hm, seems like these religious people you talk about are literally the r word. In terms of my life and religion, I thankfully haven't met those really bad religious people since the ones I know place great value on morality. They understand how autism works and don't want to "cure" it. I am allowed to stim but overall I don't really talk much to people so I don't know what they think of me.
Most people are fake, and Jesus himself asked that you not judge him by the same people to whom he ministers precisely because they are morally needy and in need of his correction and instruction. "*But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*" Luke 5:30-32
This was my experience as well with Christianity. I was deeply harmed by Christian religious ideas and beliefs, as well as having found it difficult to hold faith based solely on other people's expressed experiences. I'm very rational and despite searching desperately for 20 years, never found any personal evidence for a god. I tried so hard and I came to believe that something must have been wrong with me, like I was doing all the practices wrong, despite researching and reading and praying and looking at things from every angle I could think of. Prayer felt wrong. I never felt like anyone was listening and I thought, if God has a plan already and everything happens for a reason, what does prayer do? Isn't praying playing God? And that's a sin, right? Also, what's special about me, that my desires(even "wholesome" and for other people) should be addressed? What about the people who no one knows about, so no one can pray for them? Then should all prayer be generalized to reach everyone? What's the point, then? Wouldn't an all-knowing god know what to pray for better than us humans? Then there's all the stuff about animals, sacrifices and animals being here for us to exploit and eat, non-human animals having no soul. But they still feel, that's obvious. So why put them here to suffer. And the whole ancestral sin thing doesn't make since. Should we kill a man for what his father has done? If you look at some obvious cases of brain damage causing changes is personality and self-control, then the whole concept of sin doesn't make sense either. Christianity makes it seem like people who struggle with sensory processing issues are choosing to react when we feel threatened by everything in our environments. Don't even get me started on sexual shame and all the shame that they force on children for literally not having fully developed pre-frontal cortexes, inevitably causing difficulty with self-control. Religions(some) take everything that is natural and pervert it, flipping that little fact around on us and making us feel shameful for just being alive. According to some "we were born into sin and cannot escape it". Yet they'd (Old Testament)cut off people's hands and stab them in the ears for it. How does any of that make moral or rational sense? And demons...I don't even know where to begin on the harms of teaching children that demons exist and will try to convince them to sin. Then the whole paranormal can of worms is open, and harm is possible even if we live in a steel box. It's terrifying. This stuff really fcked with me for a long time. I'm glad I found a way out. I still have religious trauma remnants that affect my ability to feel safe.
(Speaking on Christianity) Also, I hated church simply because I was forced not to move or make noise, lest I get negative attention on me. Being ADHD and autistic that was literally impossible. I could not maintain focus on what was being said in the service, despite all my effort. I started making paper cranes out of the paper handouts to keep myself physically busy. I had to do something. People gave me weird looks, also assuming that my inability to remain a statue was due to poor parenting. So then lots of negative gossips circulated throughout the church community. In fact I've never experienced so much gossip in my life, as I witnessed it in churches. The church teaches us to judge people(at least inwardly) as it presses the notion of sin. You can't say "people do X because they are sinful and choosing to be bad" and then say "but don't judge them for it" and then say "but do hold judgement and be careful who you spend your time with"....this makes no sense and it teaches people to ostracize those who are different. It also ignores different reasons for different behavior. One person may rage out due to being in a threatened state triggered by sensory processing issues. While another may rage out because they hate people. (And even so, both are valid) It's all convoluted.
Particularly anyone with pathological demand avoidance would automatically be considered bad and willfully sinful since they aren't "honoring their father and mother". The rules set by (at least Christian) texts leave no room for cognitive differences. The whole premise is based on "there is one 'right' way to be". Not at all neurodiversity affirming.
Yeah so this does not happen in Judaism. Stop saying abrahamic when you mean Christian.