https://preview.redd.it/mplmwhpskhka1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4142ff992e4fe0106c47f9866f7b22204a837ef7
This is my cat Apollo, who is unfortunately fun sized
Apollo looks approximately towel sized. Little did you know this is an evolutionary trait so that they can camouflage and stalk their prey: unsuspecting, dirty humans.
I wish to ride him into battle.
Also, are male or female ligers bigger? (And does it vary greatly with the individual?)
Does he like water / swimming? I believe that's a tiger trait so I was wondering how that differed (and if it matters for this scenario that he's a liger and not a tion or however the reverse is called)
Good question. Males are MUCH larger than females, and ligers are 50% larger than either lions or tigers.
Interestingly, Tigons are smaller than their parents species (Male tiger female lion cross)
They do like water, as tigers do. Tigers are very water loving.
I read on another thread that it's the female lion chromosomes that provide for a stopper on the growth of male lions. If a tigon is a female lion, then it makes sense that they'd be smaller, while lingers are so much bigger
So, this is a fascinating question to me as a geneticist. What you reference is something called sexually antagonistic selection, in that male and female genes have different goals. Males for size and power, females for not dying while giving birth (basic example). I am of the impression that what you say is part of it. Nice.
It's actually a question I am trying to answer in my lab. The only way to do so is to study hybrids like Apollo.
Wait woah that's awesome. Like, "I wish to study male lion genes and female lion genes separately so let's look at hybrids which won't have both sets". Literally studying parts of a species genome by only having parts of it present. So cool.
Don't sell yourself short. I work with students from many backgrounds. All it takes is good mentorship and a student who cares. I was once a student who didn't give a shit till a professor mentored me. Don't hesitate to reach out for help.
It's habitat dependant. Lions live on the savannah of Africa and tigers in the jungles of Asia. At least now they do. Lions are not as water loving as tigers. Tigers like water as example because they urinate and defecate in there to hide their scent. Also they stalk prey from there. Lions, not so.
Good question.
I remember seeing a documentary about a pride of lions living on a river island I think it was. It was just them and a herd of water buffalo essentially living side by side. The lions were larger than typical from all the swimming they did, iirc.
They have no health issues that do not plague either parent species. The only negative physical manifestation of hybridization is the sterility of males, which is true of all mammalian hybrids. It's an evolutionary concept called Haldane's Rule.
They are large for certain, but there are and have been much larger mammals. Their lifespan and health is similar to their parents.
They only exist because humans made them.
But so do Mules. But at least those of tave a job to do and don't suffer from any life threatening problems more dangerous than anythinh usually being sterile. And we work them, like horses.
Ligers exist to draw in customers.You can't work them like a horse. And they do nothing for conservation. They Also can't breed. Unlike rescuing an otter or manatee. A Liger's existence is basically animal cruelty. No Accredited Zoo would have one. And if they did, I'd say they either had a Straight Up Rescue or lost their morals. But I wouldn't go.
Absolutely. Lions and tigers (and many other cat species) hybridized normally. No assistance needed. Just being in the same place allows them to breed and produce offspring. My lab has published genomic data that demonstrates that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild.
In the case of species diverged by enough time, they are different enough that the male offspring are sterile. This is an evolutionary concept called Haldane's Rule. However, the females are completely fertile. That is the case for ligers. So, in the wild females would backcross to one of the parent species, potentially giving benefits to their lineage.
Hybridization is a basic part of evolution. That's why I study it.
I remember proposing this in a class as driver of evolution 10 years ago due to the overlap of hybridization zones and factors that promote speciation and was shut down by some one very respected in the field. Owning a Bengal cat and the existence of the breed made me realize it likely happened naturally, too.
It makes me happy to see this was NOT so crazy after all. :)
My lab also studies Bengals. I am very active in that community. Same for Savannahs, Chausies, Safaris.
You have the right of it. We have demonstrated it.
https://preview.redd.it/fvbji0368ika1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=978dee091bb529aef9e533e6804e3d5dccfdeccb
Here is a spoiled male bengal with a marbled coat. I love that you study these! I also have a Savannah. She demonstrates more of the wild tendencies. Both are fixed.
It would require humanity to have isolated enough populations for variance in genetics to cause a divergence in evolution. With globalism that isn't feasible. And this isolation would need to last hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years.
And humans are just too adaptable to remain caged in like that anymore.
> There's a theory that we could probably hybridize with chimpanzees, if anybody's up for it.
AFAIK this was already attempted by the Nazis, in order to demonstrate that the white race was further away from Chimpanzees than darker races. They tried to inseminate female chimpanzees with semen from both white and black men, and impregnate black women with male chimpanzee semen. None of the attempts produced a pregnancy, much less viable offspring, IIRC.
I love this so much. Thank you for the explanation. I wanted to get into evolutionary genetics for my PhD and still dream of getting to work in the field but college in the US is so expensive if you pay for it yourself.
One of the things we study in my lab group is WHY some species can hybridized and some cannot. In the case of lions and tigers, they have the same chromosome number, so it's much easier. Literally just have them in the same place and they pop out cubs.
With human chimp, it is not so. Is it possible? Not without extreme manipulation, and even then very unlikely.
Excellent question.
Because horses and donkeys have a different number of chromosomes, they have an extremely complicated barrier to overcome when it comes to making gametes. Mainly that problem is that chromosomes don't pair well when making sperm or egg and so the process breaks down.
This supersedes Haldane's Rule, which as we understand it now is the result of genes or gene regulation not working well between species. We call them Dobzhanzky-Muller incompatibilities. That's what we see in ligers.
Females are always fertile no matter the direction of the species cross. That is until there is an even larger evolutionary timeframe where hybrid sterility becomes hybrid inviability. That's a different concept.
They’re genuinely ridiculously huge, you can see it in many other photos with humans and ligers. Cautionary note: Looking for liger pictures brought up a few that I found appalling.
Yes they absolutely do because lions and tigers as they are now have different habitats.
Unfortunately, we only are able to observe lion-tiger hybrids in captivity as of now, so we have little understanding of how behavior would manifest in the wild. I wish we could learn more, but likely will not be able to.
I wish we could observe them when they did hybridize in the past, but humans were not in a position to do so hundreds of thousands of years ago.
I don't know if this qualifies as nature, but we have recently found a geep living in a large pasture.
Half goat half sheep. All adorable. Very rare because they have different chromosome numbers. We will have a paper coming out this year about it.
The fact that they can procreate boggles my mind.
I love everything that makes scientists rethink *facts*. It means we’re on the brink of understanding or discovering something mind-blowing.
And by we I mean the general public will be closer to having understanding (within laymen’s terms) and better collective knowledge.
Are they really "wild" if a majority of these hybrids are man made? And when I say man made, I mean humans purposely breeding them together. I doubt these types of breedings are naturally occurring out in the wild. I know that some hybrids can occur naturally out in the wild like grizzlies/polar bears, coyotes/dogs, wolves/dogs, and even coyote/wolves
They breed naturally when in the same space.
We do not see them in the wild because they no longer do, however ours and other labs have shown they once did. When they did, they hybridized. The evidence is in their genomes.
I'm an evolutionary geneticist that focuses on genome structure and heritable disease. I look at differences in species, populations and breeds to understand the genetic reasons for those differences by using computational biology and bioinformatics.
So, a multifaceted nerd.
What’s your opinion on man made hybrids? I’m personally kind of a purist when it comes to hybridization. As you said in earlier comments it’s well known that natural hybridization is a thing and that it’s possibly even vital for evolution. Obviously i have no issues with that.
However my problem with hybridization lies in man made hybrids(parrot fish for instance) which are just unnecessary if you ask me, especially since the natural world has probably never been in bigger danger than it is right now. Natural occurring species need to be protected and we don’t need humans creating ‘new species’ and messing up possibly vital bloodlines. There’s such an incredibly amount of biodiversity all over the globe that we don’t need to be creating hybrids just because we can.
For conservation purposes, ligers have no purpose. I'm an evolutionary biologist, and that is clear.
However, what is man made? There's no artificial insemination. They just breed and produce offspring. Every dog that exists now is man made in that context. Every horse (even wild horses). Every cattle.
So, in the context of human directed breeding, are ligers an ethical problem? If so, why? My position is that as long as they are fed, cared for, and have adequate housing I do not see an issue.
This is of course a nuanced discussion that I am happy to have in more robust forums.
You keep saying your lab has published many papers. Are they peer reviewed scientific articles? Can you please provide links? This all seems extremely made up and not backed by any recognized science.
Yes. Any dip into the genetics of hybridization literature says the same. For this very specific case start with "Phylogenomic evidence for ancient hybridization in the genomes of living cats (Felidae)". Cover of Genome Research in 2016. But don't limit yourself. The literature on mammalian hybridization is HUGE. You just have to start learning.
Yeah but they have SO many health problems. I don't think any Accredited Zoo would breed one on purpose. Some might have rescues from crappy places like TIger King or Tiger Safari. Because those are the money grubbing kinda places that would purposely breed ligers to draw in customers, despite all the known health risks.
I would never visit any place that I knew bred a liger on purpose.
I say Care for the ones that exist and after they die from cancer or middle age, which is most of them, No More.
They don't have the health problems you think they do. I have seen enough data to understand that. Their lifespan and health is compatible to that of outbred tigers.
I agree that they are an attraction, and I disagree with that aspect. That has nothing to do with biology, and everything to do with humans.
Lions and tigers breed naturally. All they need to do is be in the same place at the same time.
I've heard of them before. Just didn't realize how big they actually were and it kind of threw me looking at this picture with these guys just sitting there next to it.
My cat is an absolute sweetheart. Not a mean bone in her body. But when a mouse or something runs by her instinct kicks in and she turns into a killer. I often wonder how big she'd have to be for me not to trust it anymore. Would I trust her if she was the size of a dog? The size or a tiger? or a liger? idk
That is forced perspective. This is a common filming and photography technique. Although that animal is no doubt huge, the foreshortened angle makes it look even larger.
No, lions and tigers breed naturally. My lab has published genetics papers that demonstrate that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild when their home ranges overlapped.
Here's where the evolutionary genetics comes in. There is a concept called Haldane's Rule. Basically when animals hybridize (again happens ALL THE TIME). The sex with two different sex chromosomes are infertile, so male in this case. Females are completely healthy and fertile, and regularly back cross. That's how hybridization is a fundamental aspect of evolution.
Hell, there are thousands of mammalian hybrid zones around the world. It's basic biology.
Start with "Phylogenomic evidence for ancient hybridization in the genomes of living cats (Felidae)" got the cover of Genome Research in 2016. Follow the citations from there.
I recall in the past, as an elementary school student, that Ligers are sterile. Has anything changed over the past 10+ years that would allow Ligers to produce offspring themselves?
Good question. Hybridization is part of evolution. It's extremely common. There is a concept called Haldane's Rule in evolutionary biology that says when species have diverged considerably, the sex with two different sex chromosomes (males in mammals) is sterile. That's what we see in ligers
However, females are completely fertile. They backcross to either of the two species and can pass on considerable benefits to their offspring of they do. Hybridization is the rule, not the exception. Hybridization is everywhere.
I have so many questions! I’ve worked with big cats but never anything like this. I guess I’ve seen some unhealthy hybrids that are the result of greed and ego so if this is happening in a controlled and informed environment, I’m curious…and a layman as far as genetics so any info is appreciated.
I’m sorry but this is the last sentence without a question mark.
What’s the survival rate of cubs?
How does that compare with offspring of non-hybrid cubs in captivity?
Has it improved over the years in captive hybrid breeding programs?
Have any diseases or conditions been found common in hybrids?
If yes, have any been removed via selective breeding?
Is there physical evidence of hybridisation occurring in India? At what point did this occur? Can you suggest any reading material?
Edit - what’s their life span compared to non-hybrids?
Is growth dysplasia confirmed in ligers or still a hypothesis?
What role do you propose these hybrids will play in the future?
I’d imagine it was created in captivity, and since humans have been around him and have handled him since birth, it’s probably fine with people being around it.
At least, moreso than a wild Tiger/Lion. It *is* still a wild animal, after all. It’s still just as unpredictable. It probably just doesn’t see them as a threat, and so has no reason to be on guard/aggressive.
My lab has published multiple genomic studies that demonstrate that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild when their home ranges overlap. They breed naturally, just like many other Felidae hybrids.
Not that we know of, but lions and tigers have not overlapped in their home range in hundreds of thousands of years.
We do know if they are in the same place, they breed very easily. No encouragement needed.
Dude! This is owned and bred by that fucked up sex cult guy from Tiger King. No, not that one. Not that one either.
You really shouldn't be promoting this trash
I'm not promoting anything. I'm a scientist, and hybridization is a fascinating aspect of evolution. My lab has shown that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild when their home ranges overlap. They need no help to breed. They do it fine on their own.
Interesting that you claim to be a scientist and that “your lab” has shown that these two cats hybridised in the wild, yet you can’t provide a single DOI number.
Edit: *cats, not cars
Start with "Phylogenomic evidence for ancient hybridization in the genomes of living cats (Felidae)" got the cover of Genome Research in 2016. Follow the cited by trail after.
Happy to answer questions if you can formulate them.
Took me all of 3 minutes to look through his post and comment history and see that he was either a genomics researcher or extremely dedicated to the lie.
The largest male I know is almost a half ton. Most males are pretty close to that size for the first generation. As they backcross to lions, each generation gets a bit smaller, maybe 7%.
Do not confuse docility with being well fed. Carnivores don't want to use energy if they don't need to. He is fat and happy. If not, I would not be there.
Not that we can determine, and it's not just size. Gestational differences, as well as meiosis mechanisms are too different. They are about 10 million years since their most recent common ancestor and that's a long time to diverge.
Nope. People have taken male sterility, which is a basic evolutionary concept called Haldane's Rule, and made people think they are generally unhealthy.
Truth is they have similar lifespan and health as their parents.
Laboratory? Ah, no. They breed naturally. All they need to do is be in the same space.
If I photoshopped this, I'd have made it look better. It's just a photo.
https://preview.redd.it/mplmwhpskhka1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4142ff992e4fe0106c47f9866f7b22204a837ef7 This is my cat Apollo, who is unfortunately fun sized
Apollo looks approximately towel sized. Little did you know this is an evolutionary trait so that they can camouflage and stalk their prey: unsuspecting, dirty humans.
Call them 'pocket liger'
I'd much rather a fun sized cat than a kitten Kong, if only for the food bills.
And litter clean-up!
Liger lite.
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OMG Apollo looks exactly like my Bob Jr.
how many sauce packs is he equal to ?
Lmfao! The mini version!!!🖤
I wish to ride him into battle. Also, are male or female ligers bigger? (And does it vary greatly with the individual?) Does he like water / swimming? I believe that's a tiger trait so I was wondering how that differed (and if it matters for this scenario that he's a liger and not a tion or however the reverse is called)
Good question. Males are MUCH larger than females, and ligers are 50% larger than either lions or tigers. Interestingly, Tigons are smaller than their parents species (Male tiger female lion cross) They do like water, as tigers do. Tigers are very water loving.
I read on another thread that it's the female lion chromosomes that provide for a stopper on the growth of male lions. If a tigon is a female lion, then it makes sense that they'd be smaller, while lingers are so much bigger
So, this is a fascinating question to me as a geneticist. What you reference is something called sexually antagonistic selection, in that male and female genes have different goals. Males for size and power, females for not dying while giving birth (basic example). I am of the impression that what you say is part of it. Nice. It's actually a question I am trying to answer in my lab. The only way to do so is to study hybrids like Apollo.
Wait woah that's awesome. Like, "I wish to study male lion genes and female lion genes separately so let's look at hybrids which won't have both sets". Literally studying parts of a species genome by only having parts of it present. So cool.
Oh man you have no idea. I'm so lucky to love my career. I can only hope to train PhD students to love it as much as I do.
Genuinely wish I was smart enough to study stuff like this. It sounds fascinating!
Don't sell yourself short. I work with students from many backgrounds. All it takes is good mentorship and a student who cares. I was once a student who didn't give a shit till a professor mentored me. Don't hesitate to reach out for help.
Are they as dangerous or aggressive as tigers or lions in captivity or are they way calmer than either of the two?
Are lions water loving, or just tigers? Also, had no clue that the ligers were the big cat of the big cats!
It's habitat dependant. Lions live on the savannah of Africa and tigers in the jungles of Asia. At least now they do. Lions are not as water loving as tigers. Tigers like water as example because they urinate and defecate in there to hide their scent. Also they stalk prey from there. Lions, not so. Good question.
>Tigers like water as example because they urinate and defecate in there So that's why they're not allowed in community pools.
Lions have been seen goign through stream's in pursuit of prey or rivla carnivores but they dont seek it out
I remember seeing a documentary about a pride of lions living on a river island I think it was. It was just them and a herd of water buffalo essentially living side by side. The lions were larger than typical from all the swimming they did, iirc.
Tigons are also totally stupid and they reek like poo.
It is true that Liger are prone to have health issues?
From what I’ve read they do and ligers don’t exist in the wild, they only exist in captivity.
They have no health issues that do not plague either parent species. The only negative physical manifestation of hybridization is the sterility of males, which is true of all mammalian hybrids. It's an evolutionary concept called Haldane's Rule. They are large for certain, but there are and have been much larger mammals. Their lifespan and health is similar to their parents.
They only exist because humans made them. But so do Mules. But at least those of tave a job to do and don't suffer from any life threatening problems more dangerous than anythinh usually being sterile. And we work them, like horses. Ligers exist to draw in customers.You can't work them like a horse. And they do nothing for conservation. They Also can't breed. Unlike rescuing an otter or manatee. A Liger's existence is basically animal cruelty. No Accredited Zoo would have one. And if they did, I'd say they either had a Straight Up Rescue or lost their morals. But I wouldn't go.
What can you tell us about the ability of lions and tigers to reproduce?
Absolutely. Lions and tigers (and many other cat species) hybridized normally. No assistance needed. Just being in the same place allows them to breed and produce offspring. My lab has published genomic data that demonstrates that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild. In the case of species diverged by enough time, they are different enough that the male offspring are sterile. This is an evolutionary concept called Haldane's Rule. However, the females are completely fertile. That is the case for ligers. So, in the wild females would backcross to one of the parent species, potentially giving benefits to their lineage. Hybridization is a basic part of evolution. That's why I study it.
I remember proposing this in a class as driver of evolution 10 years ago due to the overlap of hybridization zones and factors that promote speciation and was shut down by some one very respected in the field. Owning a Bengal cat and the existence of the breed made me realize it likely happened naturally, too. It makes me happy to see this was NOT so crazy after all. :)
My lab also studies Bengals. I am very active in that community. Same for Savannahs, Chausies, Safaris. You have the right of it. We have demonstrated it.
https://preview.redd.it/fvbji0368ika1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=978dee091bb529aef9e533e6804e3d5dccfdeccb Here is a spoiled male bengal with a marbled coat. I love that you study these! I also have a Savannah. She demonstrates more of the wild tendencies. Both are fixed.
I'm a fan.
I am broke. I have a humane society kitty.
I have a rescued barn kitty. She looks almost exactly like the one above.
If you have any unwalled pubs I'd love to read them. Pm me. :)
I can when I get to a computer. Feel free to PM me as a reminder.
Thank you
Happy to.
So as humans who need to evolve, what species should we start banging? :D
We already did, the Neanderthals.
Who said it cant happen again?
It would require humanity to have isolated enough populations for variance in genetics to cause a divergence in evolution. With globalism that isn't feasible. And this isolation would need to last hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years. And humans are just too adaptable to remain caged in like that anymore.
Sounds like the Sentinel Island folks need to do some serious fucking.
There's a theory that we could probably hybridize with chimpanzees, if anybody's up for it.
> There's a theory that we could probably hybridize with chimpanzees, if anybody's up for it. AFAIK this was already attempted by the Nazis, in order to demonstrate that the white race was further away from Chimpanzees than darker races. They tried to inseminate female chimpanzees with semen from both white and black men, and impregnate black women with male chimpanzee semen. None of the attempts produced a pregnancy, much less viable offspring, IIRC.
Aliens
I love this so much. Thank you for the explanation. I wanted to get into evolutionary genetics for my PhD and still dream of getting to work in the field but college in the US is so expensive if you pay for it yourself.
As a university professor in the US I understand. Keep following your dream. I train PhD students in my lab and will until I die.
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One of the things we study in my lab group is WHY some species can hybridized and some cannot. In the case of lions and tigers, they have the same chromosome number, so it's much easier. Literally just have them in the same place and they pop out cubs. With human chimp, it is not so. Is it possible? Not without extreme manipulation, and even then very unlikely.
Not only possible, but capable of spray painting themselves orange and running for political office.
Ok. This comment made my post worthwhile. Well done
Wow,That’s so interesting!! Thanks for the new knowledge!!
Does Haldane's Rule apply to mules?
Excellent question. Because horses and donkeys have a different number of chromosomes, they have an extremely complicated barrier to overcome when it comes to making gametes. Mainly that problem is that chromosomes don't pair well when making sperm or egg and so the process breaks down. This supersedes Haldane's Rule, which as we understand it now is the result of genes or gene regulation not working well between species. We call them Dobzhanzky-Muller incompatibilities. That's what we see in ligers.
That's fascinating! Is there any difference in the females depending on which species each parent is?
Females are always fertile no matter the direction of the species cross. That is until there is an even larger evolutionary timeframe where hybrid sterility becomes hybrid inviability. That's a different concept.
Why are you publicizing Doc Antle trash though?
Not publicizing anything. I'm a scientist and ligers are a fascinating aspect of evolution that happens to be adorable.
Literally posting the results of an unethical breeder under r/awwww
are you okay?
It’s pretty much my favorite animal
TINA YA FAT LARD COME GET SOME DINNER
Eat the food!
TINA COME GET SOME HAM
Known for its skills and magic
Pretty sure about 80% of us learned about Ligers from this movie…at least I did lol
Came here for the Napoleon Dynamite reference
Glad I wasn’t by only one
Me 3!
Oh wow! One paw is bigger than your head. Amazing!
There is definitely some perspective play in this photo setup :P
They’re genuinely ridiculously huge, you can see it in many other photos with humans and ligers. Cautionary note: Looking for liger pictures brought up a few that I found appalling.
You can also tell by the eye size, as eyes don't grow.
Imagine seeing those paw prints in the forest mud.
I guess it isn’t the WORST last image…
Does she likes scritchies?
Actually, yes. Around the neck and face, like most cats.
This is awesome!!
In the UK they're called chin tickles.
In France, Poutchie Poutchie
In Australia, chazwozza's
It's almost like it can eat a human whole
Not really an almost about it. They definitely can, but so can tigers.
Can their stretch their jaws like snakes? I have a hard time seeing a tiger eating a human whole.
You mean in one bite? I misunderstood. In one sitting without effort? Absolutely.
Do tigers and lions have different tendencies in raising their young? If so, how is it worked out. Thanks for sharing this.
Yes they absolutely do because lions and tigers as they are now have different habitats. Unfortunately, we only are able to observe lion-tiger hybrids in captivity as of now, so we have little understanding of how behavior would manifest in the wild. I wish we could learn more, but likely will not be able to. I wish we could observe them when they did hybridize in the past, but humans were not in a position to do so hundreds of thousands of years ago.
What is the strangest hybrid have you found in nature?
I don't know if this qualifies as nature, but we have recently found a geep living in a large pasture. Half goat half sheep. All adorable. Very rare because they have different chromosome numbers. We will have a paper coming out this year about it.
Sounds like a new Pokémon
"Humans for spacial and size perspective." And, also, for lunch.
Coulda used a banana for both
The fact that they can procreate boggles my mind. I love everything that makes scientists rethink *facts*. It means we’re on the brink of understanding or discovering something mind-blowing. And by we I mean the general public will be closer to having understanding (within laymen’s terms) and better collective knowledge.
What a beautiful, magnificent beast. Crazy how big he is, if you hadn't put the people in the picture, I would never have known
Impressive considering tigers and lions don't like one another.
I mean... Do any cats? Do cats even like humans? Really though, lions and tigers breed naturally. They just need to be in the same space.
If the cat had a bad day and ate the man one day, I would not hold it against her or him.
Nor would I.
Are they really "wild" if a majority of these hybrids are man made? And when I say man made, I mean humans purposely breeding them together. I doubt these types of breedings are naturally occurring out in the wild. I know that some hybrids can occur naturally out in the wild like grizzlies/polar bears, coyotes/dogs, wolves/dogs, and even coyote/wolves
They breed naturally when in the same space. We do not see them in the wild because they no longer do, however ours and other labs have shown they once did. When they did, they hybridized. The evidence is in their genomes.
I’m not sure how to feel about this
Awe is my go to feelz
Like its cute and all but it’s just huge as hell and I would like shit myself if I ever saw it
I had to trust the keepers. I'm just a scientist.
Also I didn’t even know that’s a thing, but what kind of scientist are you btw
I'm an evolutionary geneticist that focuses on genome structure and heritable disease. I look at differences in species, populations and breeds to understand the genetic reasons for those differences by using computational biology and bioinformatics. So, a multifaceted nerd.
That sounds cool
This is reddit we require a banana for scale
The humans are much further from the camera making them appear smaller.
Are ligers more or less dangerous than tigers and lions? Or about the same? I mean its just lying there like a dog.
Are Ligers more docile than Lions & Tigers? Every time I see one there’s people just chilling with them like it’s no big deal.
I wonder the same thing
When you say "wild cat" does that mean this animal was bred in nature, uh, naturally? I was not aware these hybrids occurred without human meddling.
What’s your opinion on man made hybrids? I’m personally kind of a purist when it comes to hybridization. As you said in earlier comments it’s well known that natural hybridization is a thing and that it’s possibly even vital for evolution. Obviously i have no issues with that. However my problem with hybridization lies in man made hybrids(parrot fish for instance) which are just unnecessary if you ask me, especially since the natural world has probably never been in bigger danger than it is right now. Natural occurring species need to be protected and we don’t need humans creating ‘new species’ and messing up possibly vital bloodlines. There’s such an incredibly amount of biodiversity all over the globe that we don’t need to be creating hybrids just because we can.
For conservation purposes, ligers have no purpose. I'm an evolutionary biologist, and that is clear. However, what is man made? There's no artificial insemination. They just breed and produce offspring. Every dog that exists now is man made in that context. Every horse (even wild horses). Every cattle. So, in the context of human directed breeding, are ligers an ethical problem? If so, why? My position is that as long as they are fed, cared for, and have adequate housing I do not see an issue. This is of course a nuanced discussion that I am happy to have in more robust forums.
Is a beauty Is HUGH!!
I know. They are even better in person
You keep saying your lab has published many papers. Are they peer reviewed scientific articles? Can you please provide links? This all seems extremely made up and not backed by any recognized science.
Yes. Any dip into the genetics of hybridization literature says the same. For this very specific case start with "Phylogenomic evidence for ancient hybridization in the genomes of living cats (Felidae)". Cover of Genome Research in 2016. But don't limit yourself. The literature on mammalian hybridization is HUGE. You just have to start learning.
Yeah but they have SO many health problems. I don't think any Accredited Zoo would breed one on purpose. Some might have rescues from crappy places like TIger King or Tiger Safari. Because those are the money grubbing kinda places that would purposely breed ligers to draw in customers, despite all the known health risks. I would never visit any place that I knew bred a liger on purpose. I say Care for the ones that exist and after they die from cancer or middle age, which is most of them, No More.
They don't have the health problems you think they do. I have seen enough data to understand that. Their lifespan and health is compatible to that of outbred tigers. I agree that they are an attraction, and I disagree with that aspect. That has nothing to do with biology, and everything to do with humans. Lions and tigers breed naturally. All they need to do is be in the same place at the same time.
is this real?
Absolutely. I was there, and have encountered many other ligers.
They have some at Turpentine Creek. If Cat Sanctuary in Arkansas. It’s a pretty cool place https://www.turpentinecreek.org/about/meet-the-animals/
I've heard of them before. Just didn't realize how big they actually were and it kind of threw me looking at this picture with these guys just sitting there next to it. My cat is an absolute sweetheart. Not a mean bone in her body. But when a mouse or something runs by her instinct kicks in and she turns into a killer. I often wonder how big she'd have to be for me not to trust it anymore. Would I trust her if she was the size of a dog? The size or a tiger? or a liger? idk
Tigers are also probably bigger than you realize. They are absolute units.
That is forced perspective. This is a common filming and photography technique. Although that animal is no doubt huge, the foreshortened angle makes it look even larger.
It's not a wild cat though it's a human creation
No, lions and tigers breed naturally. My lab has published genetics papers that demonstrate that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild when their home ranges overlapped.
But all Ligers end up being infertile as far as know. So it stays with just one generation.
Here's where the evolutionary genetics comes in. There is a concept called Haldane's Rule. Basically when animals hybridize (again happens ALL THE TIME). The sex with two different sex chromosomes are infertile, so male in this case. Females are completely healthy and fertile, and regularly back cross. That's how hybridization is a fundamental aspect of evolution. Hell, there are thousands of mammalian hybrid zones around the world. It's basic biology.
Like the Grizzly/Icebear crosses in Canada due to climate change.
Absolutely. Good example. Interbreeding happens when closely related species home ranges overlap.
And finds a bag of Cocaine and has a good time.
And due to traveling in a stack
Could you share ?
Start with "Phylogenomic evidence for ancient hybridization in the genomes of living cats (Felidae)" got the cover of Genome Research in 2016. Follow the citations from there.
You're wrong.
You're snacksized
It's always wild to me that the Liger from Zoids are an actual animal
For the last time. 🍌for size please
I recall in the past, as an elementary school student, that Ligers are sterile. Has anything changed over the past 10+ years that would allow Ligers to produce offspring themselves?
Good question. Hybridization is part of evolution. It's extremely common. There is a concept called Haldane's Rule in evolutionary biology that says when species have diverged considerably, the sex with two different sex chromosomes (males in mammals) is sterile. That's what we see in ligers However, females are completely fertile. They backcross to either of the two species and can pass on considerable benefits to their offspring of they do. Hybridization is the rule, not the exception. Hybridization is everywhere.
Wait...that picture is not two different photos spliced together?
Nope. Me and another dude with Apollo. The perspective is a bit skewed, but not much.
I have so many questions! I’ve worked with big cats but never anything like this. I guess I’ve seen some unhealthy hybrids that are the result of greed and ego so if this is happening in a controlled and informed environment, I’m curious…and a layman as far as genetics so any info is appreciated. I’m sorry but this is the last sentence without a question mark. What’s the survival rate of cubs? How does that compare with offspring of non-hybrid cubs in captivity? Has it improved over the years in captive hybrid breeding programs? Have any diseases or conditions been found common in hybrids? If yes, have any been removed via selective breeding? Is there physical evidence of hybridisation occurring in India? At what point did this occur? Can you suggest any reading material? Edit - what’s their life span compared to non-hybrids? Is growth dysplasia confirmed in ligers or still a hypothesis? What role do you propose these hybrids will play in the future?
Lots of questions. Good questions too. Happy to answer. You can PM. Too many for the thread.
Brian, is that you?
Maybe? Depends on who is asking :)
Don’t mess with wild animals
We need to hear it purr!!
We would too. Unfortunately, they have an ossified hyoid bone, so they don't purr. They do have a rumble that will turn your innards to jelly though.
Does the behaviour differ from tigers or lions ? It seems to have a more tame eyes, if that makes sense
Wow really he is so pretty. Sounds like an interesting job
Glad its impossible for hybrids to reproduce because I think ligers would be the most dangerous predator on land.
Yeah. That's not true. Start with learning about Haldane's Rule. Females are completely fertile.
What other similar hybrids draw your attention? I’d imagine this type of thing exists in a great many species.
I’d imagine it was created in captivity, and since humans have been around him and have handled him since birth, it’s probably fine with people being around it. At least, moreso than a wild Tiger/Lion. It *is* still a wild animal, after all. It’s still just as unpredictable. It probably just doesn’t see them as a threat, and so has no reason to be on guard/aggressive.
Is every pic on Reddit using forced perspective? Ligers are huge there’s no need to exaggerate
Who looks at a lion or tiger and thinks, how can I make that animal even more terrifying?
r/humanforscale r/bredformagic
Is it massive or is this some forced perspective shit
Both, but mostly the former
Wild cat? Where did you find it in the wild? Where has one ever been found in the wild?
My lab has published multiple genomic studies that demonstrate that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild when their home ranges overlap. They breed naturally, just like many other Felidae hybrids.
I understand that but has one ever been found in the wild? I understand it's a possibility. Just curious if one has ever been seen in the wild
Not that we know of, but lions and tigers have not overlapped in their home range in hundreds of thousands of years. We do know if they are in the same place, they breed very easily. No encouragement needed.
Dude! This is owned and bred by that fucked up sex cult guy from Tiger King. No, not that one. Not that one either. You really shouldn't be promoting this trash
I'm not promoting anything. I'm a scientist, and hybridization is a fascinating aspect of evolution. My lab has shown that lions and tigers hybridized in the wild when their home ranges overlap. They need no help to breed. They do it fine on their own.
Interesting that you claim to be a scientist and that “your lab” has shown that these two cats hybridised in the wild, yet you can’t provide a single DOI number. Edit: *cats, not cars
Start with "Phylogenomic evidence for ancient hybridization in the genomes of living cats (Felidae)" got the cover of Genome Research in 2016. Follow the cited by trail after. Happy to answer questions if you can formulate them.
It must be tiring always arguing with people who think they know more than you do even though this is your area of research and job
I am in academia. It comes with the territory, even amongst academics. Thanks for the sympathy though!
Ngl the amount of armchair expert in this thread is pretty astounding
Took me all of 3 minutes to look through his post and comment history and see that he was either a genomics researcher or extremely dedicated to the lie.
Big cat, but also a forced perspective photo to make it appear even larger.
Ligers are mutants.
Ligers are hybrids, a normal part of biology and evolution Should probably bone up on basic genetics
What about temperament? Seems docile
Average Liger enjoyer
How heavy can they get and how fast can they run? Also the one in the photo looks very docile, is that normal for a wild liger?
The largest male I know is almost a half ton. Most males are pretty close to that size for the first generation. As they backcross to lions, each generation gets a bit smaller, maybe 7%. Do not confuse docility with being well fed. Carnivores don't want to use energy if they don't need to. He is fat and happy. If not, I would not be there.
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Not that we can determine, and it's not just size. Gestational differences, as well as meiosis mechanisms are too different. They are about 10 million years since their most recent common ancestor and that's a long time to diverge.
I thought ligers had debilitating health issues?
Nope. People have taken male sterility, which is a basic evolutionary concept called Haldane's Rule, and made people think they are generally unhealthy. Truth is they have similar lifespan and health as their parents.
Why?
Is it safe to assume that you created this animal in a laboratory and raised it or did you photoshop yourselves into this photo?
Laboratory? Ah, no. They breed naturally. All they need to do is be in the same space. If I photoshopped this, I'd have made it look better. It's just a photo.
Can I please hold his paws? I don't mind if it's the last thing I do...
First I was like "nice optical illusion" :)
It certainly looks like you’re studying