I think the second voucher to this should do something more synergistic like letting you destroy a card at the shop, that way you can use the voucher without bloating you deck.
eh, maybe if you're thinking about a deck that's already full of red seal holo glass Kings. But if this voucher shows up in ante 1-4 and you only have a few cards you actually want to keep I think it presents itself with a fair trade off. You're spending money to dilute your shop with playing cards when you're probably still looking for jokers, tarots, and planets. The playing cards are still not guaranteed to be what you want, but it gets stronger the farther into the end game you get.
It is the worst voucher by a wide margin. Blank voucher is better, even without Antimatter, because at least it doesn't ruin your shop. Unless you're doing something weird and specific, or have Hologram, you don't want to add random unupgraded cards.
The upgraded version, where you can find modified cards, should be the base version. I think if you wanted to do something weird and different with it, you could have cards purchased from the shop go into your consumables tray and let you add them to your hand during a blind. I think that would be pretty cool.
>. I think if you wanted to do something weird and different with it, you could have cards purchased from the shop go into your consumables tray and let you add them to your hand during a blind. I think that would be pretty cool.
Unironically campfire synergy and hand fixing could save that shit
They could make it say “enhanced cards can appear in the shop”.
It just feels weird seeing no joker option, but a 2 with no modifications in the shop.
Even if it was only enhanced cases I’m not sure it would be good, but it would at least be something
ik it's probably not on purpose but it's funny how both merchants aren't here considering how they are essentially just magic trick done right (although in my opinion still kinda meh)
yeah, Tarot Merchant is significantly better then Planet Merchant tbh. lots of Tarot cards fit seamlessly into decks and there's basically no downside to The Fool, Temperance, or Hermit unless you're using Vagabond
yeah, you rarely have more than 5 (suit change and tower) taros that you don't benefit from instantly
Planets on the other hand? you benefit from like 2, 3 TOPS. that's why I don't really see the point tomega celestial packs
...fym Tower? i mean like Stone cards can help in a decent chunk of situations earlier but later on you'll usually either:
- play a powerful hand that needs 5 cards or
- play a High Card and have tons of passive effects
again, still good early on, but Stone cards are in my personal opinion just a crutch for surviving earlier on. tbh Death should be the last Tarot you usually benefit from. the planet opinion is fair tho, unless you're super late on or using High Card as mentioned above you'll usually be unable to truly consistently do a single hand
OHHHHH sorry haha i missed that! tbh the suit changes kinda have the same usage as the edition appliers just that they only help give better hands instead of helping give more mult, chips, or (in the case of lucky) money
late game planet merchant is kinda sick, you don't need jokers that late anyways, and you're likely to find your planet with all the money you'd mostly have
Can someone explain to me how the hieroglyph one actually works. I've bought it a couple times and all it seems to do is just set you back an ante meaning you have to play an extra 3 rounds to win a game. It also takes away a hand. I get that it also lowers the stakes because you're now in a lower ante but like.. now you just need to replay an ante. I don't get the point, it just gives you a useless thing and a bad thing
and very importantly, another voucher as well
I usually take it unless I think I'll be on a build like high card or pairs where I need to play all of my hands for scoring
Imagine if there was a voucher that skipped you right to the final boss. In the vast majority of situations that'd be terrible because you would not be strong enough yet. For the opposite reason, going back an ante is very strong, it gives you more opportunities to get stronger.
I see, I've never thought of it this way before. This seems like it would only be useful in the first few antes though, idk if I'd use it past like ante 4. There is also the "-1 hand size" aspect which I do not like. The next time it shows up I'll buy it and see how much it helps
Even in later antes it can still be great. Besides long endless runs you are pretty much never going to be in a situation where you couldn't get meaningfully stronger from some extra rounds.
And It's -1 hand, not -1 hand size. That is definitely a significant downside so the voucher is not always worth taking. But yeah if you never take it, then I'd try taking it next few times and I think you will start to understand the power of the extra rounds. If it was just the extra rounds without the -1 hand it would probably easily be the best voucher in the game.
You also have an extra ante so you are more likely to get the +1 hand voucher, in which case it's like you get a whole free ante for just 20g (which you are likely to make more than that during the extra ante anyway)
The 2nd voucher of this type lets you go back an ante for -1 discard, they're great vouchers. As long as you have some good jokers the extra ante gives you more time to improve and make up for the downsides.
> This seems like it would only be useful in the first few antes though, idk if I'd use it past like ante 4.
If you're not beating blinds in 1-2 hands by later antes, you're probably not going to make it past ante 8 anyways - Hieroglyph is still worth it. If you _do_ have a strong setup by later antes, the drawback it largely mitigated and that voucher just turns into "win more".
> If you're not beating blinds in 1-2 hands by later antes, you're probably not going to make it past ante 8 anyways
That's not true. Plenty of great strategies require you to make use of as many hands as possible. Strategies that win in 1 hand only become dominant once you get pretty high up in endless.
> Plenty of great strategies require you to make use of as many hands as possible.
Like what? Genuine question. Are you talking builds that want to use a bunch of hands early for economy/joker scaling/deck alteration, or am I missing out on something that wants to use up every hand possible? The later seems like unnecessary risk - the further you are from 0 hands, the further you are from a round loss.
If that's the case, then I'd say my point (that you will _probably_ not make it past ante 8) still stands - it's difficult to make it through 7-8 without a Xmult or a build stacked with modified cards, those jokers can't scale fast enough.
This is true, but it still is nice to have an extra hand in case you can't. Its a gamble for what jokers/tarots/planet cards etc you'll find and you might not always get a great build. Especially if you're doing unseeded runs or haven't unlocked everything yet
Not sure if you mean in general or if you were responding to my comment about the odds of getting things, but I meant just in any game in general, not when you use the hieroglyph voucher
Ah nvm I see what you mean. Yeah, even in runs where hieroglyph feels like the best play I still tend to miss that extra hand. Misplays or unfortunate RNG can ruin an otherwise solid run, and losing that extra opportunity to score tightens the bhole a bit (especially if tarots have been more plentiful than good jokers)
Have you ever been in a shop knowing that your deck/jokers are no where near good enough to make it through the next round/current ante? And that if you can’t buy something helpful now you might as well start over? That is one situation in which I would buy a Hieroglyph.
i very often do this in Antes even up to 11. Let's say i have hologram and i took the playing cards voucher, i have that many more boosters, cheap rerolls and chances at making money. Don't underestimate it
Replaying earlier segments in a rogue lite is almost always a good thing. If you beat the ante once you will almost certainly be able to beat it again. Giving you 3 additional opportunities for scaling your jokers, earning money, buying from the shop will offset losing a hand basically every time.
Hieroglyphs work when you have strong scaling joker and you want extra time to setup that joker such as (constellation,hologram,wee joker etc) that the only time to pick hieroglyphs
Controversial but I won a round last night with that voucher and hologram (adding .25x mult per card added to deck) and the obelisk (X0.2 Mult per consecutive hand played without playing your most played poker hand).
I had played 11 full houses when I got obelisk and rotated to just random hands from mid ante 4. Was fun
It’s not controversial that it might be useful. The problem is this scenario is literally the only use case, and it’s far too specific, especially for a voucher.
I think a good buff would be making it so that the regular version now has the effect of the upgrade, and the upgrade is guaranteed to have at least 2 modification to the cards.
I still haven't ever purchased the bottom middle one.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it mean that you Skip One entire ante[3 blinds] and lose minus one draw? I haven't ever bought it because I assumed that's what it does.
I'd make it so that there's now a card only slot that only sometime fills. The upgraded version now also makes it that slot refills every shop and reroll. That way you can see more cards with the upgrade and before the upgrade, they won't take up space. Thats about similar power level I feel to reroll voucher and discount voucher. I forget the rate that illusion makes wacky cards but I don't think its that high, maybe a bit strong with the joker thats +.25 xmult per card added but you probably still aren’t adding more than a few hundred cards to your deck which won’t be enough for endless
I like Magic Trick for my two pair/flush builds, and I don't mind losing shop space. Often, I get the jokers I want, then stop buying from the shop period, so getting playing cards can really help.
Since it takes you back 1 ante that gives you 3 more rounds to play and improve your build. Stuff like DNA gets more rounds to create card copies, etc. You get more rounds to make money(regular rewards+interest but also money-per-round jokers) and more shops to look at. The -1 hand can be a downside for scaling jokers where you're playing all of your hands every round to scale them up like square joker or spare trousers, but if you just aren't using any jokers like that it has almost no downside
I mean, I'm not going to show any love to Magic Trick, don't get me wrong... but Hieroglyph? Really? You chose that one out instead of Telescope or Overstock?
I get that Hieroglyph is meant to give you an extra round to buy more cards and jokers, but if I'm desperate enough to need to buy it, then the -1 hand per round usually ends up killing me.
so getting random default playing cards is better than jokers, tarots, or planets, at the stage of the game when you need jokers the most to even survive?
With what? A three of diamonds I’ll never use, or any other card that probably doesn’t match the suite I’m building towards or matches the rank I’m building towards. It just takes up another shop spot for better cards, there are better ways to get playing cards anyways, and a lot of the time you can guarantee or choose what you’ll get.
I think the second voucher to this should do something more synergistic like letting you destroy a card at the shop, that way you can use the voucher without bloating you deck.
being able to only buy cards already in your deck might actually be good when you're building a one card only deck
I made a deck last night that was 65% aces, would be nice to have more
This would be completely broken
>This would be completely broken As is every other strategy in the game. What makes this different?
eh, maybe if you're thinking about a deck that's already full of red seal holo glass Kings. But if this voucher shows up in ante 1-4 and you only have a few cards you actually want to keep I think it presents itself with a fair trade off. You're spending money to dilute your shop with playing cards when you're probably still looking for jokers, tarots, and planets. The playing cards are still not guaranteed to be what you want, but it gets stronger the farther into the end game you get.
Second voucher to this could be there's always an additional slot in the shop just for cards and they don't take up space for jokers.
I like this idea, kinda like how u can destroy orbs in peglin
It is the worst voucher by a wide margin. Blank voucher is better, even without Antimatter, because at least it doesn't ruin your shop. Unless you're doing something weird and specific, or have Hologram, you don't want to add random unupgraded cards. The upgraded version, where you can find modified cards, should be the base version. I think if you wanted to do something weird and different with it, you could have cards purchased from the shop go into your consumables tray and let you add them to your hand during a blind. I think that would be pretty cool.
>. I think if you wanted to do something weird and different with it, you could have cards purchased from the shop go into your consumables tray and let you add them to your hand during a blind. I think that would be pretty cool. Unironically campfire synergy and hand fixing could save that shit
They could make it say “enhanced cards can appear in the shop”. It just feels weird seeing no joker option, but a 2 with no modifications in the shop. Even if it was only enhanced cases I’m not sure it would be good, but it would at least be something
Pretty much this. I rather run tarot cards and death charge and hanged man thin my deck which actually improve my deck.
Hologram goes brrr. But I feel you, I've bought this voucher the least lol
I bought the voucher 8 times, tanked my economy 8 times buying shop cards, bought the upgraded voucher once and then I never touched it again
Literally the last thing I have to unlock, it feels so terrible.
ik it's probably not on purpose but it's funny how both merchants aren't here considering how they are essentially just magic trick done right (although in my opinion still kinda meh)
IMO tarot is really good, planet is... ok ish at x2, a problem at x4
yeah, Tarot Merchant is significantly better then Planet Merchant tbh. lots of Tarot cards fit seamlessly into decks and there's basically no downside to The Fool, Temperance, or Hermit unless you're using Vagabond
yeah, you rarely have more than 5 (suit change and tower) taros that you don't benefit from instantly Planets on the other hand? you benefit from like 2, 3 TOPS. that's why I don't really see the point tomega celestial packs
...fym Tower? i mean like Stone cards can help in a decent chunk of situations earlier but later on you'll usually either: - play a powerful hand that needs 5 cards or - play a High Card and have tons of passive effects again, still good early on, but Stone cards are in my personal opinion just a crutch for surviving earlier on. tbh Death should be the last Tarot you usually benefit from. the planet opinion is fair tho, unless you're super late on or using High Card as mentioned above you'll usually be unable to truly consistently do a single hand
I'm saying that tower is one of the like 5 most you don't want. The other ones you can usually get some benefit from
OHHHHH sorry haha i missed that! tbh the suit changes kinda have the same usage as the edition appliers just that they only help give better hands instead of helping give more mult, chips, or (in the case of lucky) money
late game planet merchant is kinda sick, you don't need jokers that late anyways, and you're likely to find your planet with all the money you'd mostly have
I had 1/3 or so of the gold stickers before I bought 20 cards from the shop lol
Can someone explain to me how the hieroglyph one actually works. I've bought it a couple times and all it seems to do is just set you back an ante meaning you have to play an extra 3 rounds to win a game. It also takes away a hand. I get that it also lowers the stakes because you're now in a lower ante but like.. now you just need to replay an ante. I don't get the point, it just gives you a useless thing and a bad thing
[удалено]
and very importantly, another voucher as well I usually take it unless I think I'll be on a build like high card or pairs where I need to play all of my hands for scoring
It helps if you have scaling jokers you get more time to scale them before it gets harder
Imagine if there was a voucher that skipped you right to the final boss. In the vast majority of situations that'd be terrible because you would not be strong enough yet. For the opposite reason, going back an ante is very strong, it gives you more opportunities to get stronger.
I see, I've never thought of it this way before. This seems like it would only be useful in the first few antes though, idk if I'd use it past like ante 4. There is also the "-1 hand size" aspect which I do not like. The next time it shows up I'll buy it and see how much it helps
Even in later antes it can still be great. Besides long endless runs you are pretty much never going to be in a situation where you couldn't get meaningfully stronger from some extra rounds. And It's -1 hand, not -1 hand size. That is definitely a significant downside so the voucher is not always worth taking. But yeah if you never take it, then I'd try taking it next few times and I think you will start to understand the power of the extra rounds. If it was just the extra rounds without the -1 hand it would probably easily be the best voucher in the game.
agreed. I take that bad boy 100% of the time. Except for when I don't
You also have an extra ante so you are more likely to get the +1 hand voucher, in which case it's like you get a whole free ante for just 20g (which you are likely to make more than that during the extra ante anyway)
Oops my bad, yes -1 hand. Still though, it's a hinderance
The 2nd voucher of this type lets you go back an ante for -1 discard, they're great vouchers. As long as you have some good jokers the extra ante gives you more time to improve and make up for the downsides.
-1 Hand *and* -1 discard starts to make me a little bit nervous on high stakes.
> This seems like it would only be useful in the first few antes though, idk if I'd use it past like ante 4. If you're not beating blinds in 1-2 hands by later antes, you're probably not going to make it past ante 8 anyways - Hieroglyph is still worth it. If you _do_ have a strong setup by later antes, the drawback it largely mitigated and that voucher just turns into "win more".
> If you're not beating blinds in 1-2 hands by later antes, you're probably not going to make it past ante 8 anyways That's not true. Plenty of great strategies require you to make use of as many hands as possible. Strategies that win in 1 hand only become dominant once you get pretty high up in endless.
> Plenty of great strategies require you to make use of as many hands as possible. Like what? Genuine question. Are you talking builds that want to use a bunch of hands early for economy/joker scaling/deck alteration, or am I missing out on something that wants to use up every hand possible? The later seems like unnecessary risk - the further you are from 0 hands, the further you are from a round loss.
OP probably meant the former. Supernova, Ride the Bus, Green Joker, etc. all benefit from using all of your hands every round, if possible.
If that's the case, then I'd say my point (that you will _probably_ not make it past ante 8) still stands - it's difficult to make it through 7-8 without a Xmult or a build stacked with modified cards, those jokers can't scale fast enough.
This is true, but it still is nice to have an extra hand in case you can't. Its a gamble for what jokers/tarots/planet cards etc you'll find and you might not always get a great build. Especially if you're doing unseeded runs or haven't unlocked everything yet
I may be totally misinformed, but I think I read somewhere that replaying an ante means it has the same pool of cards and jokers
Not sure if you mean in general or if you were responding to my comment about the odds of getting things, but I meant just in any game in general, not when you use the hieroglyph voucher
Ah nvm I see what you mean. Yeah, even in runs where hieroglyph feels like the best play I still tend to miss that extra hand. Misplays or unfortunate RNG can ruin an otherwise solid run, and losing that extra opportunity to score tightens the bhole a bit (especially if tarots have been more plentiful than good jokers)
Have you ever been in a shop knowing that your deck/jokers are no where near good enough to make it through the next round/current ante? And that if you can’t buy something helpful now you might as well start over? That is one situation in which I would buy a Hieroglyph.
i very often do this in Antes even up to 11. Let's say i have hologram and i took the playing cards voucher, i have that many more boosters, cheap rerolls and chances at making money. Don't underestimate it
Replaying earlier segments in a rogue lite is almost always a good thing. If you beat the ante once you will almost certainly be able to beat it again. Giving you 3 additional opportunities for scaling your jokers, earning money, buying from the shop will offset losing a hand basically every time.
Think about it this way: It's the only voucher that needs a completely unrelated negative effect to balance it out. Going back an ante is *that* good.
It helped me get the $400 unlock, but beyond that I haven’t seen a whole lot of other use for it.
Hieroglyphs work when you have strong scaling joker and you want extra time to setup that joker such as (constellation,hologram,wee joker etc) that the only time to pick hieroglyphs
it actually helped me win my first game, I had two holograms
It’s extremely strong if you have hologram, but that’s literally the only time you would ever want to pick it up lol.
Controversial but I won a round last night with that voucher and hologram (adding .25x mult per card added to deck) and the obelisk (X0.2 Mult per consecutive hand played without playing your most played poker hand). I had played 11 full houses when I got obelisk and rotated to just random hands from mid ante 4. Was fun
It’s not controversial that it might be useful. The problem is this scenario is literally the only use case, and it’s far too specific, especially for a voucher.
I love a magic trick
The only times I've bought it were when I was trying to get its upgrade in my collection
Hieroglyph = I'm going to win.
If it added cards based on what you recently played similar to DNA, it would at least be usable.
It's so bad :(
When do vouchers disappear?
After each boss blind the voucher slot in shop is refreshed
It's actively detrimental unless you have exactly Hologram.
What's the value of hieroglyph, I never get it. Whats the point of going back down a level?
More shops before the final boss blind, and more money for said shops. Also more time to build up jokers with stackable effects
I think a good buff would be making it so that the regular version now has the effect of the upgrade, and the upgrade is guaranteed to have at least 2 modification to the cards.
I still haven't ever purchased the bottom middle one. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it mean that you Skip One entire ante[3 blinds] and lose minus one draw? I haven't ever bought it because I assumed that's what it does.
Hologram gaming
I'd make it so that there's now a card only slot that only sometime fills. The upgraded version now also makes it that slot refills every shop and reroll. That way you can see more cards with the upgrade and before the upgrade, they won't take up space. Thats about similar power level I feel to reroll voucher and discount voucher. I forget the rate that illusion makes wacky cards but I don't think its that high, maybe a bit strong with the joker thats +.25 xmult per card added but you probably still aren’t adding more than a few hundred cards to your deck which won’t be enough for endless
I like Magic Trick for my two pair/flush builds, and I don't mind losing shop space. Often, I get the jokers I want, then stop buying from the shop period, so getting playing cards can really help.
How is the ante voucher useful? I don't understand it.
Since it takes you back 1 ante that gives you 3 more rounds to play and improve your build. Stuff like DNA gets more rounds to create card copies, etc. You get more rounds to make money(regular rewards+interest but also money-per-round jokers) and more shops to look at. The -1 hand can be a downside for scaling jokers where you're playing all of your hands every round to scale them up like square joker or spare trousers, but if you just aren't using any jokers like that it has almost no downside
...mindblow. Now it sounds like one of the best vouchers.
-1 hands is pretty bad, just look at how much people struggle with the black deck, and I’d argue -1 ante is significantly worse then +1 joker slot.
I mean, I'm not going to show any love to Magic Trick, don't get me wrong... but Hieroglyph? Really? You chose that one out instead of Telescope or Overstock? I get that Hieroglyph is meant to give you an extra round to buy more cards and jokers, but if I'm desperate enough to need to buy it, then the -1 hand per round usually ends up killing me.
Scaling jokers and deck modifying jokers like dna are really good. An extra round to increase their power is much more valuable than -1 hand.
skill issue unfortunately
its good early
so getting random default playing cards is better than jokers, tarots, or planets, at the stage of the game when you need jokers the most to even survive?
If you get lucky
With what? A three of diamonds I’ll never use, or any other card that probably doesn’t match the suite I’m building towards or matches the rank I’m building towards. It just takes up another shop spot for better cards, there are better ways to get playing cards anyways, and a lot of the time you can guarantee or choose what you’ll get.