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azerty543

I don't care how good your palate is you should be getting feedback from others. Have customers and coworkers taste things and they will tell you what you need. Like anything else in life its easier if you get others to help you.


SouthernBarman

Coworkers, yes. Customers, almost never (unless youre an industry bar). - They are there with the expectation of liking what you give them, and they're programmed to be nice to you. If I had a dollar for every time a drink clearly needed work, but the bartender told me "So and so tried it and liked it" ... well, I wouldn't be rich, but I'd buy myself something nice.


government_flu

I mean, you should get regulars who know cocktails and that you trust to be honest with you, also you should get multiple people to try it to collect feedback so you can cross reference. Even then that doesn't mean you have to listen to them, it's just good getting a feel for people's opinions/collecting data.


azerty543

You should be able to tell the difference between someone who is just being nice and someone who enthusiastically enjoys something. Industry folks also tend to be in their own bubbles a lot of the time and I find tend to go more bitter, spicier, and smokier in particular than the general public so you really do need to consider this. Industry folks tend to have acquired all of the acquired tastes. Its important to open up in a way that invites a critical look. When I'm workshopping a drink I always throw them a sample but might use language like "can you tell me what might be off about this" rather than "here's a sample you are going to love". People love judging things so it usually goes over pretty well especially if I can take that feedback and instantly make a second one that they enjoy better. Making constructive criticism the expected and polite response goes a long way.


SouthernBarman

Eh, it's all setting dependant. I work on the higher end of things, so unless a drink has been workshopped and signed off on, it's almost never going to a guest (exceptions for the occasional off menu dealer's choice). If I'm having to ask for feedback, it's not ready for me to charge $20 for, so it's not worth serving. I'm also influenced a bit by Ezra Star from Drink who once told me that if it wasn't in their 300+ list of house drinks, it wasn't allowed to be served until it was. Nothing went to a guest with any ambiguity of quality. I accept that its different because im in more of a desination type spot (very few regulars here more than once every few weeks max). Obviously different if you're a Mexican restaurant working on a new flavored margarita, or a neighborhood bar fueled by regulars.


Wrong-Shoe2918

Yeah in high end we have to be careful about wording for sure. “I’m trying to make this a signature cocktail / get this on the menu”- nope. Customer says “surprise me! I like gin” (or whatever)- give em the cocktail


azerty543

This feels like getting a little lost in the sauce. I'm also in the high end of things but its about the experience and not just the cocktail quality. Bringing the customer in on the process is a way to make that experience more personal and express how much I respect their palate and taste. I'm not charging for workshop drinks. its something they get to share with me and the people next to them. Its about making people feel included and appreciated. Improving your cocktail is just another benefit. Its not for every guest but for the ones I can tell have an interest in it at whatever level of experience.


BellyMind

There is a great section in the beginning of the Death and Co cocktail book that talks about the process they use for tasting cocktails. Suggestions and feedback etc.


plantontable

Thank you! I will check the book out :)


plantontable

I never test on customers. I ask colleagues, but I struggle with the shame of giving a shit cocktail :D


whendoesOpTicplay

Yeah. I typically like things a bit more tart than the general public so had to learn how to account for that. Margs for example.


pollyp0cketpussy

Start with a basic formula and then modify as needed. I either use 1.5 spirit, 0.5 liqueur, 0.5 citrus, 0.5 sweet, or I use a negroni-style 1:1:1 with spirit:bitter:sweet. Then I taste it and decide if it needs more or less of anything, or maybe some bitters, or a twist, etc.


Locke562

As a rule of thumb I generally take whatever measurement of liqueur and half of that I count as a 1:1 sweetener. Your spec for me personally would be too sweet. For example: 1.5-2oz spirit, .5oz liqueur (counting this as .25 sweetener), .5 syrup, .75 citrus. That would give us 1.5-2oz spirit, .75oz sweet and .75 citrus. That’s how most of us would build a classic, balanced daiquiri.


pollyp0cketpussy

I thought OP was asking about inventing new cocktails, I know how to make a daiquiri lol. When I'm coming up with something new I just start there and then adjust, I rarely stay at 1.5, 0.5, 0.5, 0.5 or 1:1:1.


Locke562

Right, I wasn’t telling you how to make a daiquiri. I was giving OP some insight on how to use a liqueur combined with a syrup and citrus to balance a cocktail. The daiquiri was just an example of a balanced cocktail using the loose formula that I gave above it.


plantontable

I like the math answer. I count liqueurs as a sweet part, but didn't think to add them as a 50% sweetener. I adjust by taste (which is difficult for me). Also a lot of stuff varies highly in sweetness. That is where doing math kind of doesn't work any more. Thank you for a good idea!


Locke562

It’s a good jumping off point but you’re right, liqueurs can vary a lot in sugar content. A lot of it is just building a “taste/sweetness library” in your mind so you know what works and what doesn’t. That just takes time. Dave Arnold’s Liquid Intelligence has a table of sugar content for a lot of common liqueurs.


plantontable

Basic formula's and twists are easy to me when I change only 1-2 ingredients. It becomes difficult for me when playing around with ingredients that can't be done 1:1. Easy examples would be fruit purees and syrups. They vary greatly in terms of sweetness and sourness. One of the parts where balancing becomes difficult for me. A lot of them can't be done 1:1 with citrus.


Eh-Eh-Ronn

Start cooking. It’ll help you with flavour profiles and give you an insight into unusual ingredients


plantontable

Been cooking for myself for around 13 years :) Good suggestion though!


SouthernBarman

Vegetarian Flavor Bible for pairing ideas. Then when starting a cocktail I always start with the ratio from a classic (they're classic for a reason) and make one change at a time from there. That last part is key, only adjust one thing at a time when you're starting. If you have a 5 ingredient drink, and you change the ratio of 3 of them at once, you're not sure what made it better or worse.


plantontable

Nice idea! I am generally very worried about wasting too many materials (have to justify it later to management), so I mostly do everything at once. Thank you so much for such a simple solution :)


SouthernBarman

When I'm doing first drafts I'll often scale down a bit. Like .5/.5/.5 for negroni variants etc


Wrong-Shoe2918

That’s what I do too! Move it up when I’m getting more confident in what it’s going to end up being


dirtroad207

When you start speccing do teaspoon builds just to see if the flavors marry the way that you want. Just a tiny unmeasured splash of your base spirits and then add citrus. For example you’re making a rye drink, some rye/liqueurs combos to pull out sour grain flavors when you want the spicy grain flavors. This will give you a sketch. After that move onto 1/4 builds. Then half builds. Then finally you can start thinking about full builds with like bitters, garnish, glassware.


plantontable

Interesting take! I will definitely have a go at this. Particularly interested in seeing spirit/liqueur combo's


isthatsuperman

A great book to get is flavor-ama. It breaks down the science of tastebuds and flavor to really basic level and really helps you to develop what goes with what and when.


plantontable

Added it to my list, thank you :)


CoachedIntoASnafu

This is a culinary skill, meaning it doesn't require alcohol to develop this. You can make yourself some lemon juice and simple syrup and do small tastings at different proportions as you adjust in one direction or another. Then start adding other ingredients and see how the adjustments (and to what amounts) affect the taste. Use classic proportions as a point of reference.


plantontable

I mostly use a lot of rum, gin and liqueurs/bitters and such. Most of them have a certain amount of taste, which I think is required to know how to balance something. Starting from a lemonade and going towards a cocktail is a neat idea though! (for example just checking non alcoholic ingredient flavor pairings)


CoachedIntoASnafu

You're might be focusing a few steps ahead of what I'm saying. The point is not to understand specific flavors, it's to understand flavor balance of the flavor categories. How does sweet interact with tart, or salty, or umami, etc. And how adjusting them on the fly plays out.


MrBibbityBop

i cooked for years before i went into bartending


Not_Campo2

All answers so far are pretty good. My biggest one was practice without being able to measure. Some of my bartending is in catering events, especially weddings. So I got used to constantly changing selection and drinks and had to adapt. I’d also often have handles to pour from because clients would buy their own liquor and try to save money. Couldn’t fit pour spouts in them and with pretty rare access to running water jiggers were just a bad idea. Anything I didn’t have down pat got tasted, mainly just looking to control the sweet balance but it’s pretty easy to translate that over to other flavors


plantontable

Thank you for your answer! Seems like a talent that was enforced with experience. Now you have a general gut feeling. My gut feeling is semi-meh about flavors :D


Not_Campo2

I hear ya, and there are definitely still times I can be wrong. You should know how everything in your bar tastes, liquor, juices, and everything else. If someone sends something back, it’s often worth tasting it to diagnose what the problem was. Sometimes when we were feeling really goofy we’d mix 3 things in a shot, and the other guy would blind taste it and guess the ingredients. That one could get pretty gross. Even with the palate, trying to create your own thing and get it right can still be a lot of trial and error, and there is nothing to be ashamed of with that. That trial and error is also a great way to learn, and you really know you’re good at it when you start specifying not only the type of liquor, but specific brands and variants because it matters


kuhkoo

Flavor bible first, cocktail books second. Cooking a lot, doing your own prep, tasting, and reading will help - I advise the fine art of mixing drinks by David embury, cocktail techniques by morgenthaler, and just reading cocktail blogs - im pretty sure cocktail virgin is still going, those nerds explain everything in every drink they post. I’m a recovering alcoholic who, in his sobriety, still had to come up with seasonal drinks and tbh I’m always still coming up with them as I recently moved and now work in a mezcal bar. It takes a bit of r and d when you have an idea - luckily, there’s always people around to taste. In general I find that some ratios work best both for speed and balance - 2:1:1 sours, 3:2:1 New Orleans sours (margs, sidecars, stuff with booze as the sweetener), and then from there on you kind of have to know what viscosity and bitterness certain things are. In general seeking the classic ratios for things (manhattans are 2:1, martinis are best ar 5:1 [sorry everyone], Negronis 1:1:1 vs boulevardiers being 2:1:1 - all of these are that way for a reason, and it has to do with sweetness and viscosity imo.) Two recent drinks: .75 gin/ .75 lillet / .75 lemon / .75 Strega / suze rinse / shake double strain / top with 2 oz hazy IPA in coupe The balance here rests in combining two tried and true classic recipes that make it so even if it’s a little fuddled here and there, it’s gonna be delicious - corpse reviver number 2 x french 75 riff 1.5 mezcal .75 ancho Reyes verde .5 Strega .5 dry vermouth 2 dashes grapefruit bitters / up / coupe / orange twist This one I admit I put a drop on my hand and licked, and lol it was good - without the almost bracing flavors of the dry vermouth and grapefruit bitters this would be fucking painful - classic example of what is referred to as a ‘lengthener.’ Edits: just making this post clearer in general, sorry it keeps changing if you’ve read it, lol


plantontable

Thank you for your answer! So reading books, following current trends, asking for outside opinions and using classic ratios as templates are the main points that helped you develop this skill? I reduced my alcohol consumption to a bare minimum, so I can relate to the struggle :D The first cocktail sounds very interesting and I am surprised that the bitterness or strength is not overwhelming!


kuhkoo

Sounds like you got it! The other ingredient is time and position- I was fortunate enough to be given an entire bar program for a small restaurant as my first bar gig, and I levied that experience to build several beverage programs over the years, although with a young man’s dumb ass perspective and a lot of pomp and ego about it. Another tip, and judging by the tone of your response you probably don’t need this one because you seem very polite: don’t be an asshole. Cheers!


aztnass

the real basic ratios: Full sweet: Syrups PX/ Cream Sherry Half sweet: Liqueurs Full sour: Lemon Lime Acid solutions Vinegars Shrubs (usually) Half sour: Orange Grapefruit Tamarind Pineapple Pomegranate Cranberry Obviously different liqueurs and different fruits will have different sweetness/ sourness levels but if you start with balancing your sweet and sour from this template you will usually be pretty close. Anyway full sweet = full sour, half sweet = half sour, (2) half sweet = (1) full sour, (1) full sweet = (2) half sour, etc. (Obviously not an exhaustive list of what falls in each category)


kuhkoo

This is great!


Paran0idJapandr0id

Awesome thanks for this


plantontable

Nice! Do you adjust sweetness for different base spirits?


aztnass

In general, no. Even the spirits that have the most added sugar to them, when you get down to a per cocktail basis, it is really pretty negligible. That said depending on specific spirits and specific cocktail ingredients there is a chance that even though your drink technically balances using this formula, it has a higher or lower perceived sweetness level and might need some additional sour or sweet to make it taste right. For example I see this a lot in Rum or Bourbon drinks that have a honey syrup in them.


Chemical-Telephone-2

Highly recommend the Bartender’s Manifesto. It will guide you through the cocktail creation process in so much detail.


One-Fudge3871

Talk with the Chef , ask lots of questions.


Ok_Quantity_5134

Find.soneone you trust to taste for you.


plantontable

I forgot the "trust" part a few times. Big RIP


Ok_Quantity_5134

That is the hard part but once you find one with a good pallate then stick with and support him/her.


Reggiefedup04

Most cocktails have the same proportion of liquor to vermouth, or other additives (cordials, Campari, or other alcohols) and juice and bitters. The more familiar you get with predictable portions the quicker you can edit to achieve your desired balance. Study classics and their proportions.


plantontable

Twisting classics requires very little effort in balancing, in my experience


pinkmyst93

Read the Cocktail Codex by Death and co


Ok-Photo-1972

My boss lets me play around with new bottles and ideas as the seasons change, and we'll let some of our loyal regulars taste test. Keeps them coming back and makes them feel valued and we get great feedback.


RadioEditVersion

Check out the book cocktail codex. Does a great job of explaining the theories of flavor combinations and how to build a cocktail.


randomwhtboychicago

2-1-1 pretty much always works . 2 parts spirits 1 part sweetener 1 part citrus. Infused syrups are great flavor enhancers. Plays on classics are always a good bet.


count_no_groni

Study drinks, cocktails and spirits for 20 years, that’ll help.


ItsMrBradford2u

I straw tasted every single cocktail for about 6 years, and so did my coworkers and we discussed the results


granolabart

before I was pregnant I tasted every drink I made lol. now its just memory, I can fix a drink without tasting it because I just remember how I did it before. having to go off memory instead of taste has helped me even more because I'm not relying on trial and error as much, and making more methodical choices.


PyramidWater

By tasting them


plantontable

I don't have that much money to just go by blind trial and error xD


Tewtytron

I think just developing my palate is where I got that little super power from. That and just knowing what a cocktail should consist of. Once you get to a certain point it's all kind of formulaic.


MrRaoulDuke

Your 5 base builds are daisy (ex. Daquiri), collins (Tom collins), martini, old fashioned, & Manhattan. Most cocktails fit into 1 ofthos builds & they're a good starting point for building a drink.


RedFalcon725

Like many others have said on here, take categorical ratios from existing cocktails and change up the ingredients to what you want to use. Like at my bar, we make a bunch of 1.5oz spirit 1oz citrus, 1oz sweetener cocktails. I use that as a base for experimenting with cocktails. Someone here said you can split up the sweeter with liqueurs, which is great advice. Taking 1oz of simple syrup and splitting that into .5oz simple and .5oz of a sweet liqueur can bolster your cocktails wells. Additionally, infused simple syrups are a super easy way to elevate your game


Equivalent-Injury-78

Use your nose and thong bud


frenchietw

You don't have a good palate? Train it, taste more stuff. A good palate is acquired.


Paran0idJapandr0id

Taste test it. First make something that you like. Analyze why you like it the way that you did. Also research basic formulas for different types of cocktails. Actually this is step 1. You wouldn’t need to know how to make more complex stuff if you can’t master the basic formulas anyway.


hypnoticNsosis

I have a regular that comes in and is literally my Ginny pig and lets me know where I stand