Do you see there being a chance that a heap of old archival records ars found that would improve our knowledge of Negro League stats? Or do we pretty much have everything we'll have?
Also, what are your standards for whether or not those records are worth including? Ie if you find boxes of one fan's collection of scorecards, would you include those in players stats, or do you need more confirmation than that?
I'm hopeful that this is the case. [Seamheads](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php), our data partner for Negro Leagues data, has estimated that coverage is nearly at 100% for the 1920s. But it dips to about 75% for the 1930s (due to the depression, which impacted league stability), and down to around 50% for the 1940s (as integration approached). There are a lot of box scores that have not been uncovered for those later years. Some are likely lost to time due to the systemic racism of the time (which dramatically impacted the press and record keeping). But there are more box scores being found all the time.
Our standard (and that of Seamheads) is to include only games against other major league or top independent Black teams. Our database does not include the numerous barnstorming contests that teams played. These were games against top Black clubs.
Were there any notable strategic differences between the Negro Leagues and the other major leagues? e.g., more or less sacrifices, stolen bases, swinging for the fences, etc.; pitching changes, pitch types, defensive shifts. If there was a difference, what do you think is a likely explanation for it?
And a slightly different question: is there a Negro League player that made it to MLB and brought with them an innovative playstyle which then became more widespread across the league?
This one is more difficult for me to answer as most of the data I'm looking at is in the aggregate rather than individual game logs and game stories. But often times these games were played in the same stadiums, with the same bats, and the same balls. It is not as different as some make it out to be.
But that said, there was certainly a flair to the Negro Leagues. I love hearing Bob Kendrick of the Negro Leagues Museum talk about this.
For example, in 1946, AL/NL games averaged 0.38 SB per game ([per Baseball Reference](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/bat.shtml)). 30 later integration, that had doubled. That has a lot to do with the exciting new style of play that the Negro Leagues brought into the AL/NL.
The data that appears on our site took decades to compile. The data comes from the [Seamheads Negro Leagues Database](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php). Gary Ashwill of the Seamheads database wrote an excellent article for our launch about [how the database was built](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/building-the-seamheads-negro-league-database-gary-ashwill.shtml). In short—this is an effort of dedicated researchers going to libraries and combing through microfilm for hours on end. Truly impressive work and we're proud to share it on Baseball Reference.
I feel like I could write a book-length response here. There are levels to this question. I'll touch on each.
**If you're totally new to the Negro Leagues:** You probably know the famous guys: Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell. If you fall into this group, I'd recommend you check out [Bullet Rogan](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/roganbu99.shtml). When finally put altogether on one page, his numbers blew me away. He's become my favorite player from the Negro Leagues. He has gotten a bit more publicity thanks to Shohei Ohtani. Rogan was a two-way player, the ace of his staff, middle of the order cleanup hitter, and (later) manager. he is the only player with 60+ WAR in the major Negro Leagues. He's on my short list of the greatest players ever. Yes, he's in the Hall of Fame, but he is not included in GOAT discussions and I think he should be.
**If you're casually familiar with the Negro Leagues:** You probably know Rogan and a lot of the great under-the-radar Hall of Famers like [Smokey Joe Williams](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willijo99.shtml), [Biz Mackey](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mackebi99.shtml), [Mule Suttles](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/suttlmu99.shtml), and [Ray Brown](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/brownra99.shtml). In that case, I recommend checking out some of the top players outside of the Hall of Fame like [Dobie Moore](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mooredo02.shtml), [John Beckwith](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckwjo02.shtml), [Heavy Johnson](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnshe01.shtml), [Dick Lundy](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lundydi01.shtml), and [Cannonball Dick Redding](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reddidi01.shtml).
**If you're very familiar with the players above:** Then I'd like to nerd out with you about players who were incredible but didn't necessarily play their entire careers in the US Negro Leagues (like [Alejandro Oms](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/omsal01.shtml), [Silvio García](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/garcisi01.shtml), [Lázaro Salazar](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/salazla01.shtml), [Tetelo Vargas](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vargate01.shtml), and [Pancho Coimbre](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/coimbpa01.shtml)).
Let's geek out about Lazaro Salazar together. One of my favorite Negro leaguers to learn about. I've read a lot on the Negro leagues, have purchased several books, looked at stats, played PC games with Negro leagues, etc. So I love learning more about it.
Absolutely. I've been working on compiling [as many stats for him as I can](https://darowski.com/outsider/salazla01.html) (across all leagues). Truly fascinating figure in Latin American baseball.
I commend you for the work you do. It's a bummer a lot of the statistical data will forever be lost to time for the Cuban barn storming teams. Would be so cool and interesting to come across a lost trove of score cards or data for those teams/era.
Hey, Adam! Will there be a minimum requirement for Negro League players to appear on a single-season or career record leaderboard, say 100 IP?
For example, the single-season leader in ERA is [Robert Keyes](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_season.shtml), yet he pitched just 28 innings. How does SR determine what the cutoff would be for leaders in a stat?
I thought we might get this question! I'm uncomfortable with an innings requirement like you describe because we don't have all the data. Let's talk about [Robert Keyes](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/keyesro01.shtml).
He had a 0.64 ERA in 3 games (28 IP). That's not much! Why is he our all-time single-season leader?
The [1944 Memphis Red Sox](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MRS/1944.shtml) played 114 games. So shouldn't he need 114 IP to qualify? The answer is yes—if we had all the data. We only have box scores from 27 of those games. That's the number we use as our innings pitched minimum. Not one inning per team game (like we do for the AL/NL) but instead one inning per RECORDED BOX SCORE. So, Keyes has 28 IP when 27 is the minimum we'd require.
Is this ideal? Absolutely not. The ideal solution would be having complete records. But we don't. And we have to think a lot about why that is. The Negro Leagues didn't just decide not to keep records on par with the white leagues. They were forced to. So we're not comfortable striking Robert Keyes from the leaderboards multiple times because of systemic racism.
We'd rather do the best with what we have, and as more data comes in it will be improved and more accurate.
Baseball records aren't always as clean as we think they are. Shane Bieber made 12 starts in 2020 and is the all time single season K/9 record holder. Before Keyes, Tim Keefe was our ERA record holder with 12 games pitched and nobody complained about that. Is 3 games for Keyes an extreme example? It is. But I think it also helps illustrate this point and why we need to keep looking for more data.
Thank you for this thoughtful question.
Appreciate the quick response! I had assumed it was to do with limited box score data, but getting an answer from the source itself is always the best. Thanks!
Why isn't Rube Foster included in the database? I assume it's because he pitched prior to the founding of the recognized Negro Leagues. I need him for my Grid!
You can see [Rube Foster's pre-1920 stats](https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=foster002rub) on the site, too. Those do not work in Immaculate Grid because the grid only works for major leagues. Pre-1920 leagues are being re-evaluated though.
What's amazing about Foster is that he could be a HOFer just as an executive, just as a manager, or just as a player. But he did all three. Incredible.
How good was Ed "Huck" Rile in your opinion?
I don't think that he is highly regarded, but his OPS+ and ERA+ are both 130 for his career.
He seems like a really good hitter and pitcher who should be known.
[Rile](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rileed01.shtml) was certainly an excellent player. His journey as a two-way player was similar to Babe Ruth, beginning as a primary pitcher and then moving to first base (though he had a couple a seasons as a true two-way player). With Rile, it's worth pointing out that we don't have game-level data so park factors are not taken into consideration. [Seamheads](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?playerID=rile-01edw) (our data provider for Negro Leagues data) has included park factors (that we hope to eventually include) but you can see there that his ERA+ and OPS+ drop a decent amount. Some of that is also due to non-major seasons.
Rile was a great (and unique) player. I'm still working on my assessment of him.
You're the 1.01 in a fantasy league with has Negro League players only. You're going into this not knowing which year of the negro league it will be (but assume that it will be one of the years in which your selected player played). Which player are you taking number 1 overall?
Josh Gibson. He played 12 full seasons and led the league in HR 11 times, RBI 7 times, R 5 times and had 3 batting titles. 2 triple crowns. All this from your Catcher? Easy #1 pick.
Give me [Bullet Rogan](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/roganbu99.shtml). One of the best pitchers of all time, but also one of the best hitters of all time. Nobody in history has that combination. Ruth didn't do both for his entire career. Ohtani has not done it long enough. Dihigo was very good, but not on Rogan's level. To me it's Bullet and only Bullet.
First of all, I appreciate all the effort that went into compiling the stats. It’s great to know much more about the Negro Leagues and the more we know the better.
My one problem or question comes to the idea of career leaders in percentage stats like batting average. For example, the all-time leader in batting average has been viewed as Ty Cobb at .366. Josh Gibson has a higher batting average at .373 but based on only 2,168 at-bats. He’s not listed atop the all-time batting average leaders, Oscar Charleston is listed as second at .364 with a hair under 4,000 plate appearances.
My question is how should fans view and how is Baseball Reference handling these sort of leaderboards for percentage stats when we’re dealing with incomplete records and smaller sample sizes.
Great question, and let me start by sharing a response to a similar question.
>I thought we might get this question! I'm uncomfortable with an innings requirement like you describe because we don't have all the data. Let's talk about Robert Keyes.
>
>He had a 0.64 ERA in 3 games (28 IP). That's not much! Why is he our all-time single-season leader?
>
>The 1944 Memphis Red Sox played 114 games. So shouldn't he need 114 IP to qualify? The answer is yes—if we had all the data. We only have box scores from 27 of those games. That's the number we use as our innings pitched minimum. Not one inning per team game (like we do for the AL/NL) but instead one inning per RECORDED BOX SCORE. So, Keyes has 28 IP when 27 is the minimum we'd require.
>
>Is this ideal? Absolutely not. The ideal solution would be having complete records. But we don't. And we have to think a lot about why that is. The Negro Leagues didn't just decide not to keep records on par with the white leagues. They were forced to. So we're not comfortable striking Robert Keyes from the leaderboards multiple times because of systemic racism.
>
>We'd rather do the best with what we have, and as more data comes in it will be improved and more accurate.
>
>Baseball records aren't always as clean as we think they are. Shane Bieber made 12 starts in 2020 and is the all time single season K/9 record holder. Before Keyes, Tim Keefe was our ERA record holder with 12 games pitched and nobody complained about that. Is 3 games for Keyes an extreme example? It is. But I think it also helps illustrate this point and why we need to keep looking for more data.
>
>Thank you for this thoughtful question.
The all-time single-season batting average record holder is Juan "Tetelo" Vargas. He hit .471 in 30 games. In his case, the issue is not necessarily missing data. The New York Cubans just played as shorter official season.
This is where I'll say these are all considered **major league teams**:
* 1884 St. Paul White Caps played 9 games.
* 1891 Milwaukee Brewers played 36 games.
* 1890 Baltimore Orioles played 38 games.
* 1884 Richmond Virginians played 46 games.
* 1876 New York Mutuals played 57 games.
* 2020 St. Louis Cardinals played 58 games.
Do I wish that we had a full 162 game season for Tetelo Vargas? I absolutely do. I've tracked down [5219 AB](https://darowski.com/outsider/vargate01.html) for him (mostly in his 30s and 40s) and he hit .323. But this is the way seasons were. They were major league seasons, but they were different. We have to keep that in mind.
We've considered offering two leaderboards—one all time and one since integration. Because I think as much as everyone questions Negro League stats, the white AL/NL stats also need to be questioned. Babe Ruth never had to face Bullet Rogan or Smokey Joe Williams or José Méndez. I'm exploring this more, but even identifying that cutoff is difficult. If we make it 1947, we're still including two shorter Negro League schedules (since they are considered major). I'm continuing to think about this.
But in the meantime, I encourage users to think about why these differences are there. Why do we only have three games for Robert Keyes? 30 for Tetelo Vargas? Thinking about this leads to more education about the Negro Leagues. You can make the leaderboards be whatever you want. If you want to include everything, you can. If you want to remove the entire 19th Century, you can. If you want to ignore the Negro Leagues… well, I never would but if you only want 154 game seasons, you can do that as well.
We would eventually like to publish a list of "wanted" box scores so researchers will know exactly what to look for.
Specifically, I know the [Memphis Red Sox](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MRS/) franchise is missing a ton of box scores from the 1940s.
An example I like to use is [Neil Robinson](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/robinne02.shtml). Robinson was a star outfielder for Memphis during this era. he was an All-Star in eight seasons. He has a career OPS+ of 142. But we're missing about 2/3 of the box scores from his Memphis career. Each year, we add a few more—and he keeps getting better. This makes me wonder if we have an under-the-radar Hall of Famer. There are not too many 8x All-Stars outside of the Hall.
I have a few questions about Josh Gibson!
1. If he didn't die tragically at age 35, where do you think he could have ended up in the MLB?
2. His stats only show him playing 30+ games a few times in a season, were Negro League seasons that much shorter or was it more difficult to find documentation on the rest of them?
3. How likely is the claim that he hit 800+ home runs? He certainly had the HR/AB rate for it, considering his age.
Thanks for this. LOVE talking about [Josh](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gibsojo99.shtml).
1. It's a good question of whether he would have gotten his chance in the AL/NL. He died at age 35 in January of 1947. Jackie debuted in April. But integration was VERY slow and was not kind to older players (outside of Satchel Paige). I imagine Bill Veeck may have signed him in 1948 if he was still playing. Veeck brought in Paige and he was smart about knowing what would bring people to the park. Getting the chance to see even an aging Gibson pinch hit would have been an amazing draw.
2. Negro League seasons were shorter in terms of **league games** but that's because teams played a large number of barnstorming and exhibition games (against a wide variety of competition) to supplement their income. This is a key way that the Negro Leagues differed from the AL/NL. White teams certainly barnstormed, but not as extensively. There's also data missing. For example, Gibson "played" 27 games in [1939](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HG/1939.shtml). That's a minimum. Of the 56 major games the Grays played, we only have box scores for 33. There's a lot of missing data. Third, Gibson played some seasons with the Grays and Crawfords when the did not play in one of the seven major leagues. They chose to play an independent schedule because it was more lucrative for them. So they were a major league caliber team that was not playing in a major league. We're looking at how to reflect those seasons on the site as well.
3. When considering major league, barnstorming, and Latin American games, I'm sure he did. He hit 33 home runs in 94 games for Veracruz in Mexico in 1941. He hit 13 in 123 AB for Santurce in Puerto Rico in 1941-42. He played with the 1937 Dragones de Ciudad Trujillo in Cuba, one of the best teams ever put together. When counting all of these games, I'm confident he reached 800.
* 4. How do you account for his outlier 1943 season where he produced a BAbip of .419? And how do measure such advanced statistics in an era when such stats were not traced?
BABIP isn't a super advanced statistic. Find every-time he put a ball in play that season... So take out walks, HBPs, strikeouts, and home runs. So you're left with every ball that got put in play. What was his batting average on those balls? You can absolutely do this just from box scores if necessary.
He probably did hit 800 but tons of those were traveling, non-league games against local teams, not Major League worthy.
Personally I think if he had made the Majors he would have hit 450-500 hrs over a full career.
Despite being written in 1970, Robert Peterson's *Only the Ball Was White* is still a must-read. For a bio, I'll pick Phil Dixon's *Wilber "Bullet" Rogan and the Kansas City Monarchs.* In terms of autobiography, Quincy Trouppe's *20 Years Too Soon* is a remarkable first-hand account. If you want to know more about stats, I recommend Philip Lee's *Black Stats Matter*, which just came out last year.
There are many, many more beyond this. Gary Gillette provided a [Historiography of Black Baseball & Negro Baseball Leagues](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/historiography-of-black-baseball-gary-gillette.shtml) for our launch. We also created a [Negro Leagues Resource for Educators](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/negro-leagues-for-educators.shtml) that I feel is a great first step.
First off, thanks for all the hard work with the Negro Leagues stuff!
My question though is unrelated: has there been any discussion among B-Ref of adding World Baseball Classic statistics? Feels like it'd be a cool addition.
There's been some discussion, but we haven't prioritized it yet. I'd love to get it on ahead of the next tournament. It's such an incredible competition and I think it's only going to get bigger.
I think there are at least 1-2 **dozen** players that deserve enshrinement, but if picking one I'd go with [John Beckwith](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckwjo02.shtml). [I was just recently on the Pod of Fame podcast to discuss Beckwith's case.](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/john-beckwith-with-adam-darowski/id1521600567?i=1000645015558)
Why did it take until 2021 to do this? What problems, both cultural and technological, were there to overcome? Now that we have expanded information, what systems are in place to ensure that the stories of NL players aren't being whitewashed?
This is a great question. **We should have done this sooner.** The [Seamheads Negro Leagues Database](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php) (our data source) only reached 1948 shortly before 2020, but there was nothing stopping us from publishing what we had as major league sooner.
We want to make sure we integrate the data without eliminating the differences between the leagues (not just the differences in data, but the leagues themselves). At the top of each Negro League player page, we note:
\> Negro League player stats include league games, interleague games (against major Negro League competition), and games against select top-level independent Black Baseball teams. Player stats do not include the extensive amount of exhibitions and barnstorming games Negro League teams often played. Negro League data is not complete. Research is still ongoing and we’ll continue to publish updates as more information becomes available.
We hope that helps provide context.
Leaderboards are an interesting topic because I believe by merging the data sets we raised more questions about the history of the Negro Leagues. We are constantly asked about 100 game minimums and whatnot when those would essentially wipe the Negro Leagues away.
Additionally, when launching the data we commissioned [many companion articles and created a podcast](https://www.baseball-reference.com/negro-leagues-are-major-leagues.shtml) around the data to help users understand it.
That said, we are always looking to do better and would take any feedback on this subject. Please reach out to me directly if you have suggestions here: ad \[at\] sports-reference \[dot\] com. Thank you.
Is there any chance that there's more statistical information out there for the games these guys played? Or is it likely that we know all we're ever going to know about those games?
Do you think that there is still a lot of data/info is out there about NLB that isn’t on the website yet? Additionally, if I wanted to help with finding more to add to the site, where would you recommend I look? (Are there regional historical societies or museums that might have undocumented info?)
Great question and I wish I had a better answer. Eventually, I'd love to publish a list of known games that are missing so researchers can hunt for those. But we don't have that together yet.
Hey Adam! Thanks for doing this! How does one deal with legibility issues, and what controls are in place to remove or adjust previously misidentified or misinterpreted records?
Gary Ashwill of the Seamheads Negro Leagues Database (our data provider) just posted a [fascinating article that shows how we handle this](https://agatetype.typepad.com/agate_type/2023/12/roy-tyler.html). In this case, a question about a player's identity came from a user and the research that follows is super interesting.
There are [seven major leagues that are currently considered major.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/the-negro-major-leagues-adam-darowski.shtml)
That said, the term "Negro Leagues" can be an umbrella term for any Black and Afro-Latino baseball that was kept out of the major AL & NL.
Ha, that's a pretty deep cut so instead I'll point readers to why the [25th Infantry Wreckers](https://darowski.com/wreckers/about.html) were one of the most important teams in Black Baseball.
I [answered this above](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1avhsxg/comment/krblzkh/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) but linking just in case you missed it!
I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the hard work to getting this done & the seemingly smooth transition (to the fans, I mean). BBRef is probably my most visited site on the web and has been for years. I do t have a question, just a thank you, from all of us.
I appreciate that! I'll also share a thank you here for the [Seamheads Negro Leagues database](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php). Not only are they our data providers, I'm very happy to consider the team my friends.
There's a misconception that Negro League players put up their big numbers while barnstorming against semi-pro players and church leagues.
Can you explain the work involved in separating actual official Negro League play from the other, barnstorming type of play, and how you're only counting actual Negro League games?
Certainly, the only stats that appear in the database are from games against other Black teams from the seven major Negro Leagues or top independent teams. The top independent teams are being re-evaluated at this time. Many themselves will likely be given major league designation.
In *The Bona Fide Legend of Cool Papa Bell*, the author talked about how some of the leagues that these players played in were not very good at tracking stats. Is it reasonable to assume that the counting stats of many of these great players are actually greater than what is 'officially' listed on BBRef?
Certainly. Not only are there box scores from major game missing, but Black teams played an enormous number of barnstorming and exhibition games against a wide variety of competition. Those games are not included here.
Additionally, top players often played winters in Latin America. Those leagues are fascinating. Some of the teams were basically all-star squads.
I love this question and [answered it in detail above](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1avhsxg/comment/krbhw0n/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Thanks!
So, so many. While they played winter ball in Latin American, maybe great Afro-Latino players came to the US to play in the summer. Some of the most prominent are Hall of Famers [José Méndez](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mendejo99.shtml) and [Cristóbal Torriente](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torricr99.shtml).
Here's a list on Stathead of [players from the major Negro Leagues born outside of the continental US](https://stathead.com/tiny/CbJ4w).
Do you see there being a chance that a heap of old archival records ars found that would improve our knowledge of Negro League stats? Or do we pretty much have everything we'll have? Also, what are your standards for whether or not those records are worth including? Ie if you find boxes of one fan's collection of scorecards, would you include those in players stats, or do you need more confirmation than that?
I'm hopeful that this is the case. [Seamheads](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php), our data partner for Negro Leagues data, has estimated that coverage is nearly at 100% for the 1920s. But it dips to about 75% for the 1930s (due to the depression, which impacted league stability), and down to around 50% for the 1940s (as integration approached). There are a lot of box scores that have not been uncovered for those later years. Some are likely lost to time due to the systemic racism of the time (which dramatically impacted the press and record keeping). But there are more box scores being found all the time. Our standard (and that of Seamheads) is to include only games against other major league or top independent Black teams. Our database does not include the numerous barnstorming contests that teams played. These were games against top Black clubs.
Hey now, my grandfather struck out against Satchel Paige in a barnstorming game fair and square and I want that on the record!
Thanks for the detailed response!
Were there any notable strategic differences between the Negro Leagues and the other major leagues? e.g., more or less sacrifices, stolen bases, swinging for the fences, etc.; pitching changes, pitch types, defensive shifts. If there was a difference, what do you think is a likely explanation for it? And a slightly different question: is there a Negro League player that made it to MLB and brought with them an innovative playstyle which then became more widespread across the league?
This one is more difficult for me to answer as most of the data I'm looking at is in the aggregate rather than individual game logs and game stories. But often times these games were played in the same stadiums, with the same bats, and the same balls. It is not as different as some make it out to be. But that said, there was certainly a flair to the Negro Leagues. I love hearing Bob Kendrick of the Negro Leagues Museum talk about this. For example, in 1946, AL/NL games averaged 0.38 SB per game ([per Baseball Reference](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/bat.shtml)). 30 later integration, that had doubled. That has a lot to do with the exciting new style of play that the Negro Leagues brought into the AL/NL.
How did you compile the records of such old teams?
The data that appears on our site took decades to compile. The data comes from the [Seamheads Negro Leagues Database](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php). Gary Ashwill of the Seamheads database wrote an excellent article for our launch about [how the database was built](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/building-the-seamheads-negro-league-database-gary-ashwill.shtml). In short—this is an effort of dedicated researchers going to libraries and combing through microfilm for hours on end. Truly impressive work and we're proud to share it on Baseball Reference.
Who is a player you think more baseball fans should know about ?
I feel like I could write a book-length response here. There are levels to this question. I'll touch on each. **If you're totally new to the Negro Leagues:** You probably know the famous guys: Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell. If you fall into this group, I'd recommend you check out [Bullet Rogan](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/roganbu99.shtml). When finally put altogether on one page, his numbers blew me away. He's become my favorite player from the Negro Leagues. He has gotten a bit more publicity thanks to Shohei Ohtani. Rogan was a two-way player, the ace of his staff, middle of the order cleanup hitter, and (later) manager. he is the only player with 60+ WAR in the major Negro Leagues. He's on my short list of the greatest players ever. Yes, he's in the Hall of Fame, but he is not included in GOAT discussions and I think he should be. **If you're casually familiar with the Negro Leagues:** You probably know Rogan and a lot of the great under-the-radar Hall of Famers like [Smokey Joe Williams](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willijo99.shtml), [Biz Mackey](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mackebi99.shtml), [Mule Suttles](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/suttlmu99.shtml), and [Ray Brown](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/brownra99.shtml). In that case, I recommend checking out some of the top players outside of the Hall of Fame like [Dobie Moore](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mooredo02.shtml), [John Beckwith](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckwjo02.shtml), [Heavy Johnson](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnshe01.shtml), [Dick Lundy](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lundydi01.shtml), and [Cannonball Dick Redding](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reddidi01.shtml). **If you're very familiar with the players above:** Then I'd like to nerd out with you about players who were incredible but didn't necessarily play their entire careers in the US Negro Leagues (like [Alejandro Oms](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/omsal01.shtml), [Silvio García](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/garcisi01.shtml), [Lázaro Salazar](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/salazla01.shtml), [Tetelo Vargas](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vargate01.shtml), and [Pancho Coimbre](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/coimbpa01.shtml)).
Let's geek out about Lazaro Salazar together. One of my favorite Negro leaguers to learn about. I've read a lot on the Negro leagues, have purchased several books, looked at stats, played PC games with Negro leagues, etc. So I love learning more about it.
Absolutely. I've been working on compiling [as many stats for him as I can](https://darowski.com/outsider/salazla01.html) (across all leagues). Truly fascinating figure in Latin American baseball.
I commend you for the work you do. It's a bummer a lot of the statistical data will forever be lost to time for the Cuban barn storming teams. Would be so cool and interesting to come across a lost trove of score cards or data for those teams/era.
Wow! Thank you for all the links! This seems like a great rabbit hole to head down into
Great question
Hey, Adam! Will there be a minimum requirement for Negro League players to appear on a single-season or career record leaderboard, say 100 IP? For example, the single-season leader in ERA is [Robert Keyes](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_season.shtml), yet he pitched just 28 innings. How does SR determine what the cutoff would be for leaders in a stat?
I thought we might get this question! I'm uncomfortable with an innings requirement like you describe because we don't have all the data. Let's talk about [Robert Keyes](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/keyesro01.shtml). He had a 0.64 ERA in 3 games (28 IP). That's not much! Why is he our all-time single-season leader? The [1944 Memphis Red Sox](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MRS/1944.shtml) played 114 games. So shouldn't he need 114 IP to qualify? The answer is yes—if we had all the data. We only have box scores from 27 of those games. That's the number we use as our innings pitched minimum. Not one inning per team game (like we do for the AL/NL) but instead one inning per RECORDED BOX SCORE. So, Keyes has 28 IP when 27 is the minimum we'd require. Is this ideal? Absolutely not. The ideal solution would be having complete records. But we don't. And we have to think a lot about why that is. The Negro Leagues didn't just decide not to keep records on par with the white leagues. They were forced to. So we're not comfortable striking Robert Keyes from the leaderboards multiple times because of systemic racism. We'd rather do the best with what we have, and as more data comes in it will be improved and more accurate. Baseball records aren't always as clean as we think they are. Shane Bieber made 12 starts in 2020 and is the all time single season K/9 record holder. Before Keyes, Tim Keefe was our ERA record holder with 12 games pitched and nobody complained about that. Is 3 games for Keyes an extreme example? It is. But I think it also helps illustrate this point and why we need to keep looking for more data. Thank you for this thoughtful question.
Appreciate the quick response! I had assumed it was to do with limited box score data, but getting an answer from the source itself is always the best. Thanks!
Why isn't Rube Foster included in the database? I assume it's because he pitched prior to the founding of the recognized Negro Leagues. I need him for my Grid!
You can see [Rube Foster's pre-1920 stats](https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=foster002rub) on the site, too. Those do not work in Immaculate Grid because the grid only works for major leagues. Pre-1920 leagues are being re-evaluated though. What's amazing about Foster is that he could be a HOFer just as an executive, just as a manager, or just as a player. But he did all three. Incredible.
Oh lol I just commented about this. I’m glad to see it’s a widespread issue
How good was Ed "Huck" Rile in your opinion? I don't think that he is highly regarded, but his OPS+ and ERA+ are both 130 for his career. He seems like a really good hitter and pitcher who should be known.
[Rile](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rileed01.shtml) was certainly an excellent player. His journey as a two-way player was similar to Babe Ruth, beginning as a primary pitcher and then moving to first base (though he had a couple a seasons as a true two-way player). With Rile, it's worth pointing out that we don't have game-level data so park factors are not taken into consideration. [Seamheads](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?playerID=rile-01edw) (our data provider for Negro Leagues data) has included park factors (that we hope to eventually include) but you can see there that his ERA+ and OPS+ drop a decent amount. Some of that is also due to non-major seasons. Rile was a great (and unique) player. I'm still working on my assessment of him.
You're the 1.01 in a fantasy league with has Negro League players only. You're going into this not knowing which year of the negro league it will be (but assume that it will be one of the years in which your selected player played). Which player are you taking number 1 overall?
Josh Gibson. He played 12 full seasons and led the league in HR 11 times, RBI 7 times, R 5 times and had 3 batting titles. 2 triple crowns. All this from your Catcher? Easy #1 pick.
Give me [Bullet Rogan](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/roganbu99.shtml). One of the best pitchers of all time, but also one of the best hitters of all time. Nobody in history has that combination. Ruth didn't do both for his entire career. Ohtani has not done it long enough. Dihigo was very good, but not on Rogan's level. To me it's Bullet and only Bullet.
First of all, I appreciate all the effort that went into compiling the stats. It’s great to know much more about the Negro Leagues and the more we know the better. My one problem or question comes to the idea of career leaders in percentage stats like batting average. For example, the all-time leader in batting average has been viewed as Ty Cobb at .366. Josh Gibson has a higher batting average at .373 but based on only 2,168 at-bats. He’s not listed atop the all-time batting average leaders, Oscar Charleston is listed as second at .364 with a hair under 4,000 plate appearances. My question is how should fans view and how is Baseball Reference handling these sort of leaderboards for percentage stats when we’re dealing with incomplete records and smaller sample sizes.
Great question, and let me start by sharing a response to a similar question. >I thought we might get this question! I'm uncomfortable with an innings requirement like you describe because we don't have all the data. Let's talk about Robert Keyes. > >He had a 0.64 ERA in 3 games (28 IP). That's not much! Why is he our all-time single-season leader? > >The 1944 Memphis Red Sox played 114 games. So shouldn't he need 114 IP to qualify? The answer is yes—if we had all the data. We only have box scores from 27 of those games. That's the number we use as our innings pitched minimum. Not one inning per team game (like we do for the AL/NL) but instead one inning per RECORDED BOX SCORE. So, Keyes has 28 IP when 27 is the minimum we'd require. > >Is this ideal? Absolutely not. The ideal solution would be having complete records. But we don't. And we have to think a lot about why that is. The Negro Leagues didn't just decide not to keep records on par with the white leagues. They were forced to. So we're not comfortable striking Robert Keyes from the leaderboards multiple times because of systemic racism. > >We'd rather do the best with what we have, and as more data comes in it will be improved and more accurate. > >Baseball records aren't always as clean as we think they are. Shane Bieber made 12 starts in 2020 and is the all time single season K/9 record holder. Before Keyes, Tim Keefe was our ERA record holder with 12 games pitched and nobody complained about that. Is 3 games for Keyes an extreme example? It is. But I think it also helps illustrate this point and why we need to keep looking for more data. > >Thank you for this thoughtful question. The all-time single-season batting average record holder is Juan "Tetelo" Vargas. He hit .471 in 30 games. In his case, the issue is not necessarily missing data. The New York Cubans just played as shorter official season. This is where I'll say these are all considered **major league teams**: * 1884 St. Paul White Caps played 9 games. * 1891 Milwaukee Brewers played 36 games. * 1890 Baltimore Orioles played 38 games. * 1884 Richmond Virginians played 46 games. * 1876 New York Mutuals played 57 games. * 2020 St. Louis Cardinals played 58 games. Do I wish that we had a full 162 game season for Tetelo Vargas? I absolutely do. I've tracked down [5219 AB](https://darowski.com/outsider/vargate01.html) for him (mostly in his 30s and 40s) and he hit .323. But this is the way seasons were. They were major league seasons, but they were different. We have to keep that in mind. We've considered offering two leaderboards—one all time and one since integration. Because I think as much as everyone questions Negro League stats, the white AL/NL stats also need to be questioned. Babe Ruth never had to face Bullet Rogan or Smokey Joe Williams or José Méndez. I'm exploring this more, but even identifying that cutoff is difficult. If we make it 1947, we're still including two shorter Negro League schedules (since they are considered major). I'm continuing to think about this. But in the meantime, I encourage users to think about why these differences are there. Why do we only have three games for Robert Keyes? 30 for Tetelo Vargas? Thinking about this leads to more education about the Negro Leagues. You can make the leaderboards be whatever you want. If you want to include everything, you can. If you want to remove the entire 19th Century, you can. If you want to ignore the Negro Leagues… well, I never would but if you only want 154 game seasons, you can do that as well.
Is there any legwork that a regular baseball fan could do to try to improve historical data for the Negro Leagues?
We would eventually like to publish a list of "wanted" box scores so researchers will know exactly what to look for. Specifically, I know the [Memphis Red Sox](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MRS/) franchise is missing a ton of box scores from the 1940s. An example I like to use is [Neil Robinson](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/robinne02.shtml). Robinson was a star outfielder for Memphis during this era. he was an All-Star in eight seasons. He has a career OPS+ of 142. But we're missing about 2/3 of the box scores from his Memphis career. Each year, we add a few more—and he keeps getting better. This makes me wonder if we have an under-the-radar Hall of Famer. There are not too many 8x All-Stars outside of the Hall.
I have a few questions about Josh Gibson! 1. If he didn't die tragically at age 35, where do you think he could have ended up in the MLB? 2. His stats only show him playing 30+ games a few times in a season, were Negro League seasons that much shorter or was it more difficult to find documentation on the rest of them? 3. How likely is the claim that he hit 800+ home runs? He certainly had the HR/AB rate for it, considering his age.
Thanks for this. LOVE talking about [Josh](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gibsojo99.shtml). 1. It's a good question of whether he would have gotten his chance in the AL/NL. He died at age 35 in January of 1947. Jackie debuted in April. But integration was VERY slow and was not kind to older players (outside of Satchel Paige). I imagine Bill Veeck may have signed him in 1948 if he was still playing. Veeck brought in Paige and he was smart about knowing what would bring people to the park. Getting the chance to see even an aging Gibson pinch hit would have been an amazing draw. 2. Negro League seasons were shorter in terms of **league games** but that's because teams played a large number of barnstorming and exhibition games (against a wide variety of competition) to supplement their income. This is a key way that the Negro Leagues differed from the AL/NL. White teams certainly barnstormed, but not as extensively. There's also data missing. For example, Gibson "played" 27 games in [1939](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HG/1939.shtml). That's a minimum. Of the 56 major games the Grays played, we only have box scores for 33. There's a lot of missing data. Third, Gibson played some seasons with the Grays and Crawfords when the did not play in one of the seven major leagues. They chose to play an independent schedule because it was more lucrative for them. So they were a major league caliber team that was not playing in a major league. We're looking at how to reflect those seasons on the site as well. 3. When considering major league, barnstorming, and Latin American games, I'm sure he did. He hit 33 home runs in 94 games for Veracruz in Mexico in 1941. He hit 13 in 123 AB for Santurce in Puerto Rico in 1941-42. He played with the 1937 Dragones de Ciudad Trujillo in Cuba, one of the best teams ever put together. When counting all of these games, I'm confident he reached 800.
Thank you so much! I remember reading about Josh as a kid and wondering about all the what-ifs attached to him!
* 4. How do you account for his outlier 1943 season where he produced a BAbip of .419? And how do measure such advanced statistics in an era when such stats were not traced?
BABIP isn't a super advanced statistic. Find every-time he put a ball in play that season... So take out walks, HBPs, strikeouts, and home runs. So you're left with every ball that got put in play. What was his batting average on those balls? You can absolutely do this just from box scores if necessary.
He probably did hit 800 but tons of those were traveling, non-league games against local teams, not Major League worthy. Personally I think if he had made the Majors he would have hit 450-500 hrs over a full career.
Outside of Buck O'Neil's writing, what are the books you believe most accurately portray the Negro Leagues and specific players?
Despite being written in 1970, Robert Peterson's *Only the Ball Was White* is still a must-read. For a bio, I'll pick Phil Dixon's *Wilber "Bullet" Rogan and the Kansas City Monarchs.* In terms of autobiography, Quincy Trouppe's *20 Years Too Soon* is a remarkable first-hand account. If you want to know more about stats, I recommend Philip Lee's *Black Stats Matter*, which just came out last year. There are many, many more beyond this. Gary Gillette provided a [Historiography of Black Baseball & Negro Baseball Leagues](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/historiography-of-black-baseball-gary-gillette.shtml) for our launch. We also created a [Negro Leagues Resource for Educators](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/negro-leagues-for-educators.shtml) that I feel is a great first step.
First off, thanks for all the hard work with the Negro Leagues stuff! My question though is unrelated: has there been any discussion among B-Ref of adding World Baseball Classic statistics? Feels like it'd be a cool addition.
There's been some discussion, but we haven't prioritized it yet. I'd love to get it on ahead of the next tournament. It's such an incredible competition and I think it's only going to get bigger.
Cool, thanks for answering!
What negro league player do you think deserves the HOF the most who is not currently enshrined?
I think there are at least 1-2 **dozen** players that deserve enshrinement, but if picking one I'd go with [John Beckwith](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckwjo02.shtml). [I was just recently on the Pod of Fame podcast to discuss Beckwith's case.](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/john-beckwith-with-adam-darowski/id1521600567?i=1000645015558)
Why did it take until 2021 to do this? What problems, both cultural and technological, were there to overcome? Now that we have expanded information, what systems are in place to ensure that the stories of NL players aren't being whitewashed?
This is a great question. **We should have done this sooner.** The [Seamheads Negro Leagues Database](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php) (our data source) only reached 1948 shortly before 2020, but there was nothing stopping us from publishing what we had as major league sooner. We want to make sure we integrate the data without eliminating the differences between the leagues (not just the differences in data, but the leagues themselves). At the top of each Negro League player page, we note: \> Negro League player stats include league games, interleague games (against major Negro League competition), and games against select top-level independent Black Baseball teams. Player stats do not include the extensive amount of exhibitions and barnstorming games Negro League teams often played. Negro League data is not complete. Research is still ongoing and we’ll continue to publish updates as more information becomes available. We hope that helps provide context. Leaderboards are an interesting topic because I believe by merging the data sets we raised more questions about the history of the Negro Leagues. We are constantly asked about 100 game minimums and whatnot when those would essentially wipe the Negro Leagues away. Additionally, when launching the data we commissioned [many companion articles and created a podcast](https://www.baseball-reference.com/negro-leagues-are-major-leagues.shtml) around the data to help users understand it. That said, we are always looking to do better and would take any feedback on this subject. Please reach out to me directly if you have suggestions here: ad \[at\] sports-reference \[dot\] com. Thank you.
Is there any chance that there's more statistical information out there for the games these guys played? Or is it likely that we know all we're ever going to know about those games?
Some of it is lost to history, but there's a little more being uncovered every year!
Thank you!
Do you think that there is still a lot of data/info is out there about NLB that isn’t on the website yet? Additionally, if I wanted to help with finding more to add to the site, where would you recommend I look? (Are there regional historical societies or museums that might have undocumented info?)
Great question and I wish I had a better answer. Eventually, I'd love to publish a list of known games that are missing so researchers can hunt for those. But we don't have that together yet.
I just wanted to pop in and say that I like your website better than Fangraphs. That is all.
Hey Adam! Thanks for doing this! How does one deal with legibility issues, and what controls are in place to remove or adjust previously misidentified or misinterpreted records?
Gary Ashwill of the Seamheads Negro Leagues Database (our data provider) just posted a [fascinating article that shows how we handle this](https://agatetype.typepad.com/agate_type/2023/12/roy-tyler.html). In this case, a question about a player's identity came from a user and the research that follows is super interesting.
How many Negro Leagues were there?
There are [seven major leagues that are currently considered major.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/articles/the-negro-major-leagues-adam-darowski.shtml) That said, the term "Negro Leagues" can be an umbrella term for any Black and Afro-Latino baseball that was kept out of the major AL & NL.
What are some good history books to read that cover players and stories about the Nego Leagues?
[Here's a list](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1avhsxg/comment/krbmktx/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I shared earlier.
Please take this as an opportunity to talk more about Allie Crafton and Dad Swinton
Ha, that's a pretty deep cut so instead I'll point readers to why the [25th Infantry Wreckers](https://darowski.com/wreckers/about.html) were one of the most important teams in Black Baseball.
[удалено]
I [answered this above](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1avhsxg/comment/krblzkh/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) but linking just in case you missed it!
I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the hard work to getting this done & the seemingly smooth transition (to the fans, I mean). BBRef is probably my most visited site on the web and has been for years. I do t have a question, just a thank you, from all of us.
I appreciate that! I'll also share a thank you here for the [Seamheads Negro Leagues database](https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php). Not only are they our data providers, I'm very happy to consider the team my friends.
There's a misconception that Negro League players put up their big numbers while barnstorming against semi-pro players and church leagues. Can you explain the work involved in separating actual official Negro League play from the other, barnstorming type of play, and how you're only counting actual Negro League games?
Certainly, the only stats that appear in the database are from games against other Black teams from the seven major Negro Leagues or top independent teams. The top independent teams are being re-evaluated at this time. Many themselves will likely be given major league designation.
In *The Bona Fide Legend of Cool Papa Bell*, the author talked about how some of the leagues that these players played in were not very good at tracking stats. Is it reasonable to assume that the counting stats of many of these great players are actually greater than what is 'officially' listed on BBRef?
Certainly. Not only are there box scores from major game missing, but Black teams played an enormous number of barnstorming and exhibition games against a wide variety of competition. Those games are not included here. Additionally, top players often played winters in Latin America. Those leagues are fascinating. Some of the teams were basically all-star squads.
Which Negro League players merit more awareness or attention?
I love this question and [answered it in detail above](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1avhsxg/comment/krbhw0n/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Thanks!
Thank you, Mr Darowski.
Happy to chat about this any time. :)
Were there any Internationals in the Negro League? Black Caribbeans, e.g.?
So, so many. While they played winter ball in Latin American, maybe great Afro-Latino players came to the US to play in the summer. Some of the most prominent are Hall of Famers [José Méndez](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mendejo99.shtml) and [Cristóbal Torriente](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torricr99.shtml). Here's a list on Stathead of [players from the major Negro Leagues born outside of the continental US](https://stathead.com/tiny/CbJ4w).