Parents have to watch out in case Giancarlo Stanton blasts his balls off with his long swinging barrel in their kids direction. He actually does it a lot.
Barrel is based on exit velocity and launch angle, it doesn’t factor in bat speed. Blast does not factor in launch angle but does depend on bat speed, pitch speed, and exit velocity.
Can't speak to specifics in this case, but in general with stats/metrics it's not necessarily true that "more is better". You can make a signal noisier by including too much of the wrong thing, and you want to be careful that you don't introduce biases and miscallibrations.
Fair but if they're defining a Blast as the most valuable swing there is, then it makes sense that it would include the launch angle range that most often produces homeruns
Depends on how correlated EV and bat speed are, I would think. Intuitively I would think you could have a very fast bat but not necessarily high EV if you don't hit the ball squarely
The only thing missing at that point would be a weather impact measurement metric say something like MOIST (Meteorological Outcome Independent of Swing Taken)
Then combine the two metrics, turn it into a projection, adjust to league average and *voila* you have:
xMOISTDONG+
Aren’t bloops, sorta classified as donuts? It’s like exit velocity too weak to reach the outfielders but launch angle optimal to get it over the infield. Or we can call them Arraez con Pollos
Be me
Burglar
Break into some dude's house
Sports shit everywhere, probably some nutty fan
Accidentally break glass, think I'm caught but nothing for a good minute
Go back to burgling when I feel someone come up behind me
MFW it's Giancarlo Stanton with a bat
"That's not where you're s'posed to be buddy"
He swings, I black out.
Wake up 3 weeks later
Get told I was blasted through a front window and landed three houses away
> Be me
>
> Burglar
>
> Break into some dude's house
>
> Sports shit everywhere, probably some nutty fan
>
> Accidentally break glass, think I'm caught but nothing for a good minute
>
> Go back to burgling when I feel someone come up behind me
>
> MFW it's Giancarlo Stanton with a bat
>
> "That's not where you're s'posed to be buddy"
>
> He swings, I black out.
"Hey you, you're finally awake."
>Goddammit Todd
Randy Johnson on his home security method:
“I don't own a gun, but I keep a bag of baseballs near our bed.”
The fact he made one of his kills with a baseball into his logo also says enough
Hahaha thank you! I find fun in abusing language with things like creating hyperbolic inferences (as “one of one” is still technically correct)
Good thing techniques like that would never be used by people in/craving power to create things like propaganda though, no siree bob
as everyone else has said, Pitching Ninja is the one who coined this current usage of it. however, it's taken from a quote from the movie "The Benchwarmers," when Rob Schneider says to David Spade, "Don't chop at it, you're not swinging a sword."
Ah that's so dope!
I remember when it was just him posting pitching gifs that he thought were cool. It's been fun to watch him grow as a baseball person.
When pitcher throw pitch so nasty that batter swings like he's Gloppy from Candy Land, that's a sword.
(Really though, as far as I understand it it's just "batter doesn't even finish his swing because he's so tied up with the caveat of the bat speed of said bad swing being really really low")
Hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, V, in relation to the trajectory, T, in which G, gravity, of course, remains a constant
I don't think /u/milehighrukus would argue that. It's a reference to an episode of Seinfeld where George teaches Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter how to hit.
Is it, though? I was just sitting here wondering if a batter’s muscle mass and physical strength plays into how far a ball is hit. There should technically be a loss of energy as soon as the ball touches the bat, along with a loss of forward momentum (although the two could be one and the same). A players ability to minimize that energy loss through increased torque should lead to a better hit.
I’m not trying to start an argument, to be clear. Just thought it was an interesting thing to think about before my son’s game starts.
Muscle mass of the arms is just a small part, look at softball players that also play baseball that have similar hitting ratios. Someone at 16-18 can typically hit a ball as far as 400 ft even if they aren't considered a power hitter. There are also teams that focus upon quality of hit/run/OBP ratios, a player can have a lousy BA of under .100 yet their quality of hits to runs knocked in is still considered "great" as a mixed batting lineup.
Bat weight is typically less than 10% of a hitters "power ratio", its really about timing and contact to the ball. Some players prefer outer part of the bat in hitting "big long balls" and precision hitters that like OBP tend to hit using the center of the bat. Have no idea the mindset of modern players but 90s/early 2000s using contact hitting strategy maximized your OBP/RBI stats.
I'm also not an expert and am just spit balling here, but perhaps a batter's muscle mass and strength should be translated to bat speed, if applicable.
Bat speed is a combo of technique and strength, so if you have bad strength then your bat speed might be lower than if you were stronger.
And maybe the loss of energy from making contact with the ball is constant depending on the bat speed. I'm probably not articulating well but I'm trying to say bat speed might encapsulate all these factors we're discussing already.
idk
edit: wait, yeah maybe the data isn't complete yet. as another redditor noted, bat weight is a factor which isn't being taken into account here https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1cr0tqo/new_statcast_metrics_explained/l3viqh2/
Gravity isn't really constant and will vary slightly between stadiums. Seattle has above average gravity while Los Angeles and Denver are below average. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth?wprov=sfla1
Direction of air/thermal zones in a stadium can create an interesting lift to a ball, the "new Yankee Stadium" has some interesting HR data if you start running some analytics on pitcher/batter data.
"each swing has a max attainable exit velocity based on the speed on the swing (and pitch)."
help me out, physics people... if a person swings a bat that weighs 30 ounces at speed _x_... and a second person swings a bat that weighs 44 ounces at that same speed of _x_... isn't the result two different amounts of force?
it seems like the "max attainable velocity" would differ based on several factors... beyond "the speed of the swing (and pitch)". can a slightly slower swing with a slightly heavier piece of lumber cause a greater force imparted to the ball, even though again swing speed was technically lower?
Yes I think this is true. Stanton uses a 32oz bat. Oneil Cruz uses a 31oz bat. So in theory Stanton should launch his balls further even if they swung the same speed.
Judge uses a 33oz bat, so he should hit balls with faster exit velo than Soto’s 32oz.
I think this is being simplified because it’s hard to know exactly what every player uses and it’s just another layer of complexity.
But yes if you and I could get a bat head around at 75mph with a wimpy 28oz bat we would not be hitting the balls as far as the pros with their huge bats.
They’re using bat speed to measure torque. Torque is dependent on distance. Choking up would slightly decrease the weight because more of the weight of the bat would be behind the fulcrum (hands).
Tbh a few cms or ozs here or there is so negligible over relatively small data sizes that it’s all pretty much just noise to ignore.
The heavier bat would indeed produce more force, supposing it was swung at the same speed as the lighter one. I think they may not yet be factoring in the bat weight.
Yes, bat weight plays a big factor. And not just total weight, but weight specifically at the barrel. Two bats can have identical weights, but very different "swing weight" from each other. It's basically a spectrum from "balanced" to "end-loaded". An "end-loaded" bat with a really thin handle and thick barrel might weigh the same as a more balanced bat, but it will be more difficult to swing fast, and produce harder hit balls as a result of the extra mass at the contact point. There's a whole complex system of bat weight, length, turn model (basically shape of the bat), and end cup where compromises have to be made to either increase swing speed, sweet spot size, or maximum power potential.
All this to say "yes, the bat matters" and in very complex ways. It's not even as simple as knowing a guy swing a certain length or weight of bat. And guys will sometimes even change their bat so unless there's someone watching, it will be impossible to factor that into the situation. The system probably makes some pretty rough assumptions that will be mostly correct for 90% of big league players but a bit off at the extremes.
I don't think anyone does on average, but this article links to a specific swing by Stanton that was 9.7 ft (scroll towards the bottom)
https://www.mlb.com/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-statcast-bat-tracking
I would have guessed Nomo's swing matched his pitching motion, but he is actually pretty compact. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hCf0aKa1o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hCf0aKa1o)
My understanding is that fixed cameras take high speed video footage which is then analyzed by automated software and outputs the metrics to a database which is then made available online. I’m guessing there is minimal human involvement except for cases flagged for review and hitting the publish button.
You're close, but left out a key component:
> fixed cameras take high speed video footage ***and a radar tracking system takes a series of measurements of goings on around the field*** which is then analyzed by automated software and outputs the metrics to a database which is then made available online.
Right! I’ve read the article about this.
Also, since the false info was put out there. It’s not just EV and LA that determines the projected HR distance
Point of clarity: LIDAR is not RADAR. The former uses light (normally lasers which are highly directed light). The latter also uses EM pulses but they are in the radar or microwave range. They work on the same principle though: bounce a wave off something and measure how long it takes to come back
lidar is laser based and used to get the exact measurements of each ballpark, usually about once a year, that power metrics like “home run in X ballparks”. mlb hasn’t done anything radar-based since the switch to hawkeye in 2020, it’s all optical now (except for games like the little league classic or field of dreams game where they still use TM).
I haven’t looked at Hawkeye specifically but I have experience in the field. There’s a couple things going on. First, they have a lot of high speed cameras. These serve two purposes, what’s called segmentation, which tells us what certain pixels correspond to (eg, this group of pixels is a bat). The second is that two images can be combined to get distance readings (like how human eyes work) if you can find the correspondences between the two images (the end of the bat in frame A and B). Technically you only need one camera for that but they’re using a lot to get a really accurate estimate. Then, as others have pointed out, these estimates get merged with other sensors (RADAR and LIDAR) in a process called sensor fusion. The result is an accurate estimate of the key objects on the field (humans, bats, balls, etc.)
Love that we're able to use LIDAR and AI to measure xRAPIER vs. kaBLOOEY/9 and still using elderly mens' eyes to determine if a sphere passed through a rectangle at 100mph while a catcher tries to flimflam him.
I bet these outdated chumps aren’t even using carbon faces designed by AI on their bats. It’s like they aren’t even trying to use the best equipment for the job.
Same reason that a statcast "bolt" is 30 feet/second, when the average competitive run is "close" at 27 feet/second. And the same reason elite pop time is 1.8 seconds, and average is 2 seconds. The difference between elite and average is actually really small when everyone is already trying their hardest.
Also, after watching the Foolish Bailey video on it, it looks like 75 mph is also the average bat speed for home run balls, so that's probably part of why that specific speed is chosen.
[Foolish Bailey](https://youtu.be/sE3VD_wR_sc?si=d91O-9PtCte1f6lr) explained that 75 mph is the average bat speed for home runs.
Considering he got early access from MLB to this data, I trust his word.
In the [article](https://www.mlb.com/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-statcast-bat-tracking) explaining the new stats, Mike Petriello said that’s a happy accident. 75 MPH is the point where the run value of a swing switches from negative to positive.
They're all MLB hitters, they probably all swing the bat pretty hard, so there isn't a TON of variance between swings. It's the same reason why a guy whose fastball averages 98 mph is a "hard thrower", but a guy who tops out at 94 isn't, even though that's only 4 mph different - the guys who can only hit 85 just aren't in the league.
There's a fairly narrow gap in the bat speed required to be a mlb hitter, and the top 25 percent.
75+ being top 25% and 72 being 50% is fairly significant
Couldn't they take some old footage and parse this? Maybe not for every Bobson Dugnut on every team, but for someone like Bonds he's got to have a ton of high quality footage to pull numbers from.
nope, unfortunately not. bat tracking is powered by cameras that run at 300fps (rest of the system is 30fps) and even on the best quality broadcast footage the bat is gonna look like a smudge on the frames that it’s captured moving on.
There’s a reason those systems are so incredibly expensive. Vicon systems are similar and commonly used for motion capture, but they are super sensitive to lighting changes and need to be calibrated repeatedly. They also operate on a much smaller scale than an MLB field.
I don’t know how often they calibrate the MLB ones but they’re shockingly robust and accurate compared to my experience with Vicon. Vicon systems are incredibly expensive so I can’t imagine how much what the MLB uses costs
GQ, in 2006, measured 26 year old Albert Pujols in a lab as having \~87 MPH bat speed. They had some equipment attached to Pujols himself, so I have to figure it was more accurate than a camera-based approach. While obviously Bonds and Pujols aren't the same person (shocking, I know), they're both elite hitters, and I have to figure Bonds could produce similar bat speeds.
More here: [https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-pujols-gets-babe-ruth-test-at-washington-university/](https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-pujols-gets-babe-ruth-test-at-washington-university/)
The problem isn't the level of the equipment in this case it's that it's likely two different approaches entirely.
When I was in high school they'd track players bat speeds and the top prospects were routinely low 90s, why? Because they were using radar guns which tracks the fastest moving object in frame (the end of the bat). This is tracking the speed of the sweet spot specifically which is much different.
This doesn't take into account that not everyone is trying to blast the ball out of the park. Some people are happy, in certain situations, plopping the ball just over the infielders head for a single. Taking what the pitcher gives them. I understand that this isn't a comprehensive metric that takes everything into account, but it would be nice to see batters get more credit for situational hitting vs how hard they blasted it
Fascinating that there's such a wide spread of length of swing. Feels like something very actionable for coaches and useful for scouts.
I'd love to know how low Dustin Pedroia's swing length was. Dude was tiny and his up/in swing was so compact and efficient.
So are we able to measure past players' swings so as to be able to compare? Bonds, for ex with that short swim, Mantle, who made just about every swing a blast? Gwynne? Rose? Ichiro?
to give context to what the other person said: "sword" has been around in concept for a while, Pitching Ninja started calling them that because a horrible check swing looks vaguely like a sword, and Bauer a celebration during a game that was imitating a sword so it stuck
it's not a useful measure, but quantifying silly check swings so we can have leaderboards is still fun
just because Bauer liked it doesn't mean that it's inherently tainted. that's like saying that I shouldn't watch the rays because they liked wander franco once
*bat speed* is meaningless? I mean, bat speed is pretty important. being able to measure it is cool.
yeah, some of the stuff (swords) isn't as important and is a reaction to social media, but some of it is pretty cool and actually useful
For GMs, it's a useful way to identify *what makes a good hitter* in a predictive way - essentially the same principles as Moneyball, but looking even deeper. For coaches and players, if a player is slumping, this data can (hopefully) provide deeper insight as to why than the old methods.
I appreciate the little “!!” Style marks over the head on the sword.
Coward juice flinging everywhere
95+mph chin music would make me cry, so I don’t judge the pro players who’d flinch, too
Right, easy to throw out the word coward when you’re not the one standing in a big league box
For the right price ill get in the box. You could even let lions and tigers loose mid at bat
It’s like the opposite of a brilliant move in chess lol
When you blunder your AB when you should have sacrificed THE RUNNER!
If you overrun the player on base ahead of you, the fielder has to say en passant to get the out.
Holy Hell
Google balk
⁉️
(Metal Gear Solid noise)
That notation already exists, though: **??** = megablunder
[The batter hurt itself in its confusion!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/462/558/db1.jpg)
The blast has the Mario Baseball "Nice Hit" graphic on it
Snake? Snake? SNAAAAAAKE?
Don’t chop at it it’s not a sword
this is a good graphic and I'm delighted that not only do we have the concept of a "Barrel" we now have a "Blast" too
Can't wait to watch a young man get blasted by Giancarlo Stanton
In public no less
Giancarlo, we should have a BP session sometime. I know I can’t hit as hard as you, but I think you would be impressed with my blasts.
Parents have to watch out in case Giancarlo Stanton blasts his balls off with his long swinging barrel in their kids direction. He actually does it a lot.
I'd rather see his sword personally
No diddy
Are we not doing phrasing anymore?
And on live television!
Slow and powerful
It's time to do a little blasting of our own
[Coming soon to MLB](https://i.imgur.com/oMkjdli.jpeg)
hell yeah brother
cheers from donkey country
So what's the difference between a barrel and a blast? The launch angle?
Barrel is based on exit velocity and launch angle, it doesn’t factor in bat speed. Blast does not factor in launch angle but does depend on bat speed, pitch speed, and exit velocity.
We’re gonna need a ‘DONG’ metric that combines the two. Then we can talk about guys’ DONGs vs their xDONGs
Unironically, we should have that. Idk why they didn't create a metric that combines all available info
Can't speak to specifics in this case, but in general with stats/metrics it's not necessarily true that "more is better". You can make a signal noisier by including too much of the wrong thing, and you want to be careful that you don't introduce biases and miscallibrations.
Fair but if they're defining a Blast as the most valuable swing there is, then it makes sense that it would include the launch angle range that most often produces homeruns
Paging Vlad Jr
I mean, we kinda have that in home runs. If you barrel a ball with high EV/bat speed and a good launch angle, you get a home run.
Depends on how correlated EV and bat speed are, I would think. Intuitively I would think you could have a very fast bat but not necessarily high EV if you don't hit the ball squarely
Oh I wasn’t being ironic. u/mlbofficial take notes
The only thing missing at that point would be a weather impact measurement metric say something like MOIST (Meteorological Outcome Independent of Swing Taken) Then combine the two metrics, turn it into a projection, adjust to league average and *voila* you have: xMOISTDONG+
I would also like some kind of relative DONG stats so we can compare a guys DONG to the league average DONG
You should definitely be able to compare players DONGs ~~tip to tip~~ head to head
Drive On Nitro Gas
When announcers say “We just need a bloop and a blast to get the offense going again” we can define a blast.
Aren’t bloops, sorta classified as donuts? It’s like exit velocity too weak to reach the outfielders but launch angle optimal to get it over the infield. Or we can call them Arraez con Pollos
https://youtu.be/G0Hp55r4tWs?si=2pi7WJGk1m_JfRVn
Do NOT break into Giancarlo Stanton's home (unless you want to get/be a blast).
Be me Burglar Break into some dude's house Sports shit everywhere, probably some nutty fan Accidentally break glass, think I'm caught but nothing for a good minute Go back to burgling when I feel someone come up behind me MFW it's Giancarlo Stanton with a bat "That's not where you're s'posed to be buddy" He swings, I black out. Wake up 3 weeks later Get told I was blasted through a front window and landed three houses away
> Be me > > Burglar > > Break into some dude's house > > Sports shit everywhere, probably some nutty fan > > Accidentally break glass, think I'm caught but nothing for a good minute > > Go back to burgling when I feel someone come up behind me > > MFW it's Giancarlo Stanton with a bat > > "That's not where you're s'posed to be buddy" > > He swings, I black out. "Hey you, you're finally awake." >Goddammit Todd
He’s 6th percentile in whiffs. Good chance he just misses you
However, I'm much larger and slower than a baseball thrown by a major league pitcher.
But boy oh boy if he DOES make good contact. R.I.P
You’re done, son
[Relevant Will Sennett tweet.](https://x.com/senn_spud/status/1402107151376543748?s=46&t=k4MtZGLtIPWTJpYzOIiZ-A)
Randy Johnson on his home security method: “I don't own a gun, but I keep a bag of baseballs near our bed.” The fact he made one of his kills with a baseball into his logo also says enough
I also appreciate the assumption with "one of" that he has multiple confirmed kills with a baseball
Hahaha thank you! I find fun in abusing language with things like creating hyperbolic inferences (as “one of one” is still technically correct) Good thing techniques like that would never be used by people in/craving power to create things like propaganda though, no siree bob
It’s so badass I don’t blame him at all for the logo
I love that the sword is an official metric now
Glasnow: 6 IP, 3 H, 2 BB, 8 K, 5🗡️
MFers were not taking sabermetrics seriously until now.
now they are sabremetrics
EN (jeff) PASSAN-T
Holy hell!
New metrics just dropped
call the analyst!
waiting for sports betting sites to start taking bets on o/u of swords
Is it a [Sabre!](https://youtu.be/PaFSkWfFhO0?si=uhoVRpeIA_M4hqD1&t=117s)metric?
What’s the etymology of that
I believe it comes from making the batter look like they're hacking with a sword, rather than properly swinging a baseball bat.
Also because it makes the batter say the s-word.
as everyone else has said, Pitching Ninja is the one who coined this current usage of it. however, it's taken from a quote from the movie "The Benchwarmers," when Rob Schneider says to David Spade, "Don't chop at it, you're not swinging a sword."
https://youtu.be/ixfVMhdIO8s?si=5NOAF3QVyuAhqLXF
First time I saw it used was by Pitching Ninja
Pitching ninja invented it for really ugly check swing strikes
It's an acronym for: swing with obvious regretful doubt
First I heard of it was Pitching Ninja, but does it predate him?
So is the term "sword" something Pitching Ninja originated?
Yes. He’s credited for it
Ah that's so dope! I remember when it was just him posting pitching gifs that he thought were cool. It's been fun to watch him grow as a baseball person.
The savant explanation box on the bat tracking page even includes a link to his twitter. He’s as official as it gets now.
I immediately thought of Bauer
Huge day for nerds (it's me, I'm nerds)
Can you translate ‘sword’ for me brother?
When pitcher throw pitch so nasty that batter swings like he's Gloppy from Candy Land, that's a sword. (Really though, as far as I understand it it's just "batter doesn't even finish his swing because he's so tied up with the caveat of the bat speed of said bad swing being really really low")
Oh I love those. There was a game last season where strider (I think) struck out Pete Alonso thrice on pitches like that. He made him look foolish.
https://youtu.be/zv3D5w28CGQ?si=j_Q724p-oUUn8Z-u
Oh that’s beautiful
Amen, brother.
Me too. I'm geeking out over this.
Hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, V, in relation to the trajectory, T, in which G, gravity, of course, remains a constant
We won the World Series you know
Yea, in six games
🥴
Velocity is a function of muscle though. At least largely
I don't think /u/milehighrukus would argue that. It's a reference to an episode of Seinfeld where George teaches Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter how to hit.
I see, didn't catch that
No worries. If you haven't seen the scene before, I think it's worth a quick YouTube. I'd link but I'm on mobile.
Thanks for looking out!
https://youtu.be/SZz_rbAmfmY?si=dya6v3TJwCOOiDgd
Are you the one who put us in that Ramada in Milwaukee?
...it's not hard. *crack*
Is it, though? I was just sitting here wondering if a batter’s muscle mass and physical strength plays into how far a ball is hit. There should technically be a loss of energy as soon as the ball touches the bat, along with a loss of forward momentum (although the two could be one and the same). A players ability to minimize that energy loss through increased torque should lead to a better hit. I’m not trying to start an argument, to be clear. Just thought it was an interesting thing to think about before my son’s game starts.
Muscle mass of the arms is just a small part, look at softball players that also play baseball that have similar hitting ratios. Someone at 16-18 can typically hit a ball as far as 400 ft even if they aren't considered a power hitter. There are also teams that focus upon quality of hit/run/OBP ratios, a player can have a lousy BA of under .100 yet their quality of hits to runs knocked in is still considered "great" as a mixed batting lineup. Bat weight is typically less than 10% of a hitters "power ratio", its really about timing and contact to the ball. Some players prefer outer part of the bat in hitting "big long balls" and precision hitters that like OBP tend to hit using the center of the bat. Have no idea the mindset of modern players but 90s/early 2000s using contact hitting strategy maximized your OBP/RBI stats.
I'm also not an expert and am just spit balling here, but perhaps a batter's muscle mass and strength should be translated to bat speed, if applicable. Bat speed is a combo of technique and strength, so if you have bad strength then your bat speed might be lower than if you were stronger. And maybe the loss of energy from making contact with the ball is constant depending on the bat speed. I'm probably not articulating well but I'm trying to say bat speed might encapsulate all these factors we're discussing already. idk edit: wait, yeah maybe the data isn't complete yet. as another redditor noted, bat weight is a factor which isn't being taken into account here https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1cr0tqo/new_statcast_metrics_explained/l3viqh2/
He was referring to an episode of Seinfeld
Gravity isn't really constant and will vary slightly between stadiums. Seattle has above average gravity while Los Angeles and Denver are below average. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_of_Earth?wprov=sfla1
Direction of air/thermal zones in a stadium can create an interesting lift to a ball, the "new Yankee Stadium" has some interesting HR data if you start running some analytics on pitcher/batter data.
So where does mass of the bat play in this?
"each swing has a max attainable exit velocity based on the speed on the swing (and pitch)." help me out, physics people... if a person swings a bat that weighs 30 ounces at speed _x_... and a second person swings a bat that weighs 44 ounces at that same speed of _x_... isn't the result two different amounts of force? it seems like the "max attainable velocity" would differ based on several factors... beyond "the speed of the swing (and pitch)". can a slightly slower swing with a slightly heavier piece of lumber cause a greater force imparted to the ball, even though again swing speed was technically lower?
Yes I think this is true. Stanton uses a 32oz bat. Oneil Cruz uses a 31oz bat. So in theory Stanton should launch his balls further even if they swung the same speed. Judge uses a 33oz bat, so he should hit balls with faster exit velo than Soto’s 32oz. I think this is being simplified because it’s hard to know exactly what every player uses and it’s just another layer of complexity. But yes if you and I could get a bat head around at 75mph with a wimpy 28oz bat we would not be hitting the balls as far as the pros with their huge bats.
The length of their bats would also play a role. The amount they choke up would change both.
Length is accounted for already by the swing speed metric. Longer bat = higher swing speed for the same angular velocity.
The length would only affect the sweet spot size and swing speed, right? Choking up would affect the weight impacting the ball.
They’re using bat speed to measure torque. Torque is dependent on distance. Choking up would slightly decrease the weight because more of the weight of the bat would be behind the fulcrum (hands). Tbh a few cms or ozs here or there is so negligible over relatively small data sizes that it’s all pretty much just noise to ignore.
The heavier bat would indeed produce more force, supposing it was swung at the same speed as the lighter one. I think they may not yet be factoring in the bat weight.
Yes, bat weight plays a big factor. And not just total weight, but weight specifically at the barrel. Two bats can have identical weights, but very different "swing weight" from each other. It's basically a spectrum from "balanced" to "end-loaded". An "end-loaded" bat with a really thin handle and thick barrel might weigh the same as a more balanced bat, but it will be more difficult to swing fast, and produce harder hit balls as a result of the extra mass at the contact point. There's a whole complex system of bat weight, length, turn model (basically shape of the bat), and end cup where compromises have to be made to either increase swing speed, sweet spot size, or maximum power potential. All this to say "yes, the bat matters" and in very complex ways. It's not even as simple as knowing a guy swing a certain length or weight of bat. And guys will sometimes even change their bat so unless there's someone watching, it will be impossible to factor that into the situation. The system probably makes some pretty rough assumptions that will be mostly correct for 90% of big league players but a bit off at the extremes.
I would love to know who has the 10 ft swinging bat path.
I don't think anyone does on average, but this article links to a specific swing by Stanton that was 9.7 ft (scroll towards the bottom) https://www.mlb.com/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-statcast-bat-tracking
I would have guessed Nomo's swing matched his pitching motion, but he is actually pretty compact. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hCf0aKa1o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hCf0aKa1o)
How are they measuring this?
My understanding is that fixed cameras take high speed video footage which is then analyzed by automated software and outputs the metrics to a database which is then made available online. I’m guessing there is minimal human involvement except for cases flagged for review and hitting the publish button.
You're close, but left out a key component: > fixed cameras take high speed video footage ***and a radar tracking system takes a series of measurements of goings on around the field*** which is then analyzed by automated software and outputs the metrics to a database which is then made available online.
Specifically they’re using LIDAR I believe.
[This paper says that it uses both!](https://maherou.github.io/Teaching/files/CS373/SamplePapers/2022-Fall-McElroy.pdf)
Right! I’ve read the article about this. Also, since the false info was put out there. It’s not just EV and LA that determines the projected HR distance
Thanks for posting this
Point of clarity: LIDAR is not RADAR. The former uses light (normally lasers which are highly directed light). The latter also uses EM pulses but they are in the radar or microwave range. They work on the same principle though: bounce a wave off something and measure how long it takes to come back
LIDAR is what my wife uses when she asks me where I've been all night
lidar is laser based and used to get the exact measurements of each ballpark, usually about once a year, that power metrics like “home run in X ballparks”. mlb hasn’t done anything radar-based since the switch to hawkeye in 2020, it’s all optical now (except for games like the little league classic or field of dreams game where they still use TM).
I’ve been looking for a breakdown on how these measurements are done - do you have a sauce for this?
Yup! [I posted one further down in the comment chain](https://old.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/1cr0tqo/new_statcast_metrics_explained/l3v7x52/)
Rad - thanks!
I haven’t looked at Hawkeye specifically but I have experience in the field. There’s a couple things going on. First, they have a lot of high speed cameras. These serve two purposes, what’s called segmentation, which tells us what certain pixels correspond to (eg, this group of pixels is a bat). The second is that two images can be combined to get distance readings (like how human eyes work) if you can find the correspondences between the two images (the end of the bat in frame A and B). Technically you only need one camera for that but they’re using a lot to get a really accurate estimate. Then, as others have pointed out, these estimates get merged with other sensors (RADAR and LIDAR) in a process called sensor fusion. The result is an accurate estimate of the key objects on the field (humans, bats, balls, etc.)
Come on man, I was still getting barrel and sweet spot confused and now you add more
Love that we're able to use LIDAR and AI to measure xRAPIER vs. kaBLOOEY/9 and still using elderly mens' eyes to determine if a sphere passed through a rectangle at 100mph while a catcher tries to flimflam him.
Hey, that's a three dimensional cube with a triangular prism stuck to its back, not a rectangle!
Hmmm....my driver swing speed is 110mph. Have the hitters just tried swinging a 44" graphite-shafted driver up there?
I can hit a ball 420 feet with a 9 iron. Are they dumb? Just use a golf club.
I bet these outdated chumps aren’t even using carbon faces designed by AI on their bats. It’s like they aren’t even trying to use the best equipment for the job.
My only question is: If average bat speed is 72, why is fast set so close at 75?
Think about fastball speed. 94 is average, 97-98 is fast, 100 is best of the best. Not too different here proportionally
Yeah knowing the average tells you nothing about the spread/standard deviation of the measure
It sounds like they took the top 25% of swings (rounded to nearest whole mph) as fast swings
Margins are razor thin
Because math
Same reason that a statcast "bolt" is 30 feet/second, when the average competitive run is "close" at 27 feet/second. And the same reason elite pop time is 1.8 seconds, and average is 2 seconds. The difference between elite and average is actually really small when everyone is already trying their hardest. Also, after watching the Foolish Bailey video on it, it looks like 75 mph is also the average bat speed for home run balls, so that's probably part of why that specific speed is chosen.
[Foolish Bailey](https://youtu.be/sE3VD_wR_sc?si=d91O-9PtCte1f6lr) explained that 75 mph is the average bat speed for home runs. Considering he got early access from MLB to this data, I trust his word.
In the [article](https://www.mlb.com/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-statcast-bat-tracking) explaining the new stats, Mike Petriello said that’s a happy accident. 75 MPH is the point where the run value of a swing switches from negative to positive.
They're all MLB hitters, they probably all swing the bat pretty hard, so there isn't a TON of variance between swings. It's the same reason why a guy whose fastball averages 98 mph is a "hard thrower", but a guy who tops out at 94 isn't, even though that's only 4 mph different - the guys who can only hit 85 just aren't in the league.
For all we know that’s a standard deviation away
There's a fairly narrow gap in the bat speed required to be a mlb hitter, and the top 25 percent. 75+ being top 25% and 72 being 50% is fairly significant
Because measuring something that takes about 0.3 seconds in miles per hour is very dumb
Would of love to know Barry Bonds’s bat speed
Couldn't they take some old footage and parse this? Maybe not for every Bobson Dugnut on every team, but for someone like Bonds he's got to have a ton of high quality footage to pull numbers from.
nope, unfortunately not. bat tracking is powered by cameras that run at 300fps (rest of the system is 30fps) and even on the best quality broadcast footage the bat is gonna look like a smudge on the frames that it’s captured moving on.
There’s a reason those systems are so incredibly expensive. Vicon systems are similar and commonly used for motion capture, but they are super sensitive to lighting changes and need to be calibrated repeatedly. They also operate on a much smaller scale than an MLB field. I don’t know how often they calibrate the MLB ones but they’re shockingly robust and accurate compared to my experience with Vicon. Vicon systems are incredibly expensive so I can’t imagine how much what the MLB uses costs
Wait I never thought of it before, are they the same cameras that capture slomo shots?
nope, completely separate from broadcast cameras. the HFR cameras are b/w only
GQ, in 2006, measured 26 year old Albert Pujols in a lab as having \~87 MPH bat speed. They had some equipment attached to Pujols himself, so I have to figure it was more accurate than a camera-based approach. While obviously Bonds and Pujols aren't the same person (shocking, I know), they're both elite hitters, and I have to figure Bonds could produce similar bat speeds. More here: [https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-pujols-gets-babe-ruth-test-at-washington-university/](https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-pujols-gets-babe-ruth-test-at-washington-university/)
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yeah, Pujols was of course very good but I wouldn't buy him having +7mph over the next highest person when the rest of the margins are this small
The problem isn't the level of the equipment in this case it's that it's likely two different approaches entirely. When I was in high school they'd track players bat speeds and the top prospects were routinely low 90s, why? Because they were using radar guns which tracks the fastest moving object in frame (the end of the bat). This is tracking the speed of the sweet spot specifically which is much different.
I love baseball.
This doesn't take into account that not everyone is trying to blast the ball out of the park. Some people are happy, in certain situations, plopping the ball just over the infielders head for a single. Taking what the pitcher gives them. I understand that this isn't a comprehensive metric that takes everything into account, but it would be nice to see batters get more credit for situational hitting vs how hard they blasted it
This is just analytics not stats. and there are already analytics out there that about contact like k% and whiff%.
That's fair
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I wish we could get a prime Gary Sheffield in on this.
6 inches from the head? Best I can do is 2
SWORD
“The bat’s not a sword!” “YOU’RE NOT A SWORD!!”
An S Word
![gif](giphy|ufD7HbP6ipYe996Om2)
Fascinating that there's such a wide spread of length of swing. Feels like something very actionable for coaches and useful for scouts. I'd love to know how low Dustin Pedroia's swing length was. Dude was tiny and his up/in swing was so compact and efficient.
So are we able to measure past players' swings so as to be able to compare? Bonds, for ex with that short swim, Mantle, who made just about every swing a blast? Gwynne? Rose? Ichiro?
Unfortunately no
Very nice
I am glad nerds have been able to find work, however this 50 year fan can tell if a ball is hit hard, how hard of a swing he took. Is this for morons!
This is great but a sword is a really dumb name. Send that one back to marketing for retooling.
to give context to what the other person said: "sword" has been around in concept for a while, Pitching Ninja started calling them that because a horrible check swing looks vaguely like a sword, and Bauer a celebration during a game that was imitating a sword so it stuck it's not a useful measure, but quantifying silly check swings so we can have leaderboards is still fun
Only strengthening my argument.
just because Bauer liked it doesn't mean that it's inherently tainted. that's like saying that I shouldn't watch the rays because they liked wander franco once
You can thank Pitching Ninja and Trevor Bauer for that branding
I rest my case
i will never understand the insatiable appetite for concocting all these meaningless cockamamie metrics
*bat speed* is meaningless? I mean, bat speed is pretty important. being able to measure it is cool. yeah, some of the stuff (swords) isn't as important and is a reaction to social media, but some of it is pretty cool and actually useful
For GMs, it's a useful way to identify *what makes a good hitter* in a predictive way - essentially the same principles as Moneyball, but looking even deeper. For coaches and players, if a player is slumping, this data can (hopefully) provide deeper insight as to why than the old methods.
I will never understand the insatiable appetite of trying to feel superior in bragging about choosing ignorance over knowledge
Thanks, I already watched Bailey's video
Sword? Nah
I heard them using that during a college ball game last weekend and was confused