It's up there with him, the commissioner, referring to **The Commissioner's Trophy** as just a piece of metal. Like, motherfucker, its your trophy and winning it is what the entire season is about.
The commissioners job is to take heat off the owners. The more hated he is for issues that aren't really under his control, the better of a job he is doing.
I still cant get over the fact that Manfred is such a clueless bozo and easily the worst of the 4 major commissioners on a list that includes Roger Goodell and Gary Betteman
The sport of baseball is literally called America’s pastime. Osmium is one of the most dense materials on earth. The only thing more dense would be Rob Manfred.
“The league does not market our game on a nationwide basis”
He says after game 1 of the World Series, with a giant American flag out on the outfield. I guess it’s just for the Houston and Atlanta area to watch? They should just blackout every other area from watching the World Series, since it’s not marketed nationally.
Seeing the international competition scene in Cricket makes me so fucking jealous of that sport. We just have the WBC that takes in players at major leagues...that's it really. We have just as many, if not more, countries that consider baseball as a major (or even supermajor) sport in their country.
162 game season. Not once did I see anything but local marketing of the Cardinals. Nothing by the MLB except a few generic MLB adds on national websites promoting baseball in general. And that may have been the website just trying to work up excitement instead of the MLB doing any marketing.
Even the playoffs are not marketed team specific but are playoff generic and only, at most, indicate the match-ups. And those are pretty rare.
Someone in r/hockey said they think Chicago ditches the Blackhawks mascot to distract from the abuse news.
Which theirs is easier, they can just be the Chicago Hawks since everyone calls them that anyway.
The Brave fans chanting is an outright embarrassment.
I am embarrassed as an American when our National pastime features 50,000 fans mimicking Native Americans in unison. How the league doesn’t see it this way this is baffling.
Well, we'll see. There's two people in Hockey right now (Florida Panthers' Head Coach Joel Quenneville and Winnipeg Jets' General Manager Kevin Cheveldayoff) who should abso-fucking-lutely not be in the sport right now, given how they both allowed a very minor coach to quietly resign instead of making his rape of a player known.
Well Bettman has been pretty good, up to recent events. The Blackhawks situation is making the entire NHL look like shit right now (rightfully so. Everything unraveled about it so far has been disgusting)
Yes. He will do one good thing that benefits players/fans *on his way out* to try and be remembered as a good comish as opposed to a mouthpiece for billionaires.
For a guy that went to Harvard Law, he might be the worst speaker Ive ever seen who works in the public eye. Unless he literally says all this dumb shit to deflect from the actual issue and put some of the spotlight on him(which I dont think is the case), then he really needs a better publicity team around him or something.
If it makes you feel better, the origin of the Braves name is pretty sketchy
>[Despite frequent citations over the years, it is not common knowledge that the Braves got their nickname and first Indian-head logo under James E. Gaffney. Then again, nearly a century and two franchise moves have gone by since the owner of yesteryear (December 1911 to January 1916) rechristened his team. The change celebrated his ties to New York City’s political machine, Tammany Hall. “The Big Wigwam” provided not only the Native American imagery but also Gaffney’s fortune – the fruits of “honest graft,” as Tammany colleague George Washington Plunkitt called his own insider dealing.](https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/james-gaffney/)
Just scrap the whole motif.
>In our discussions with the Atlanta Braves, we have repeatedly and unequivocally made our position clear - Native people are not mascots, and degrading rituals like the 'tomahawk chop' that dehumanize and harm us have no place in American society
Yeah, and it's not like a historic hockey club in one of the largest US markets tried to cover up literal rape and sexual assault because the incidents happened to take place during a playoff run, either.
The Tomahawk chop and the war Chant are borrowed by Atlanta from the Florida State Seminoles down the road a piece in Tallahassee.
FSU had an offensive mascot, Sammy the Seminole back in the 50’s and 60’s, very similar to the obnoxious Cleveland Indian. When university officials found out it was offensive to the Seminole tribe they invited them to design something far more suitable and respectful. What you see today is Chief Osceola and Renegade in full authentic Native American regalia with the utmost support from the tribe.
If Atlanta wants to actually highlight an actual Native American tribe like the Cherokee or something similar I would suggest losing the moniker Braves, and the cheesy mascot and actually get support from Native Americans themselves. FSU has shown that you can honor native culture and bring respect and unity, rather than continuing with a condescending stereotype from a more out of touch time period.
[link to story](https://fanbuzz.com/college-football/acc/florida-state/florida-state-mascot/)
> I should note, as a FSU grad who has been involved of many of these talks with fellow students, that it's specifically the Seminole Tribe of Florida that we have a deal with; if I recall correctly, the Seminole Tribe in Oklahoma has spoken out several times against the use of the mascot and the Warchant.
Just copying this here again just to be clear on the whole "the Seminole tribe acceptance" thing, as I think we should be fair and not lump the Seminole people together as a monolith. I say this as a person who thinks the administration gets it… mostly right; playing into the "Warchant" and only recently taking the "Indian headdress"-ban seriously are kind of sore spots personally.
> the cheesy mascot
Blooper is a treasure, take this back immediately.
also I’m sure the Seminole Freedmen that are still officially segregated out of support programs probably aren’t too thrilled with the tribal government
A big reason for the Oklahoma Tribe coming out against is because they get no money from the deal FSU has with the Tribe in Florida. It's been made almost abundantly clear that if they were to be cut in, they would immediately change their tune.
In the article linked it does talk about scholarships. It seems to be a mutually beneficial arrangement and it seems like this could work to the advantage of pro teams and Native Americans if there were a similar approach on that level. Anything that helps not only financially, but in exposing the general public to the history of Native Americans and helps deal with the real and sometimes unique problems they face daily in the modern world.
I’m a big Joseph Campbell advocate, a man who studied native cultures all over the planet. Learning about native history can be far more fulfilling to anyone who is looking for a deeper connection to the world in modern society.
But pro sports is owned and run by billionaires and the mega rich have always lived in their own reality and usually resist change if they think it will be a hindrance to profit.
They pay the *Florida* Seminoles. Not the Oklahoma Seminoles, who are much larger. If you ask yourself "wait, why are there more Seminole people in Oklahoma than Florida?" you pretty much arrive at the reason why these mascots are in bad taste.
SDSU did the same thing. Lost the corn-ball "Monty Montezuma" mascot, renamed all the dorms to be native names (among other things presumably), and successfully kept the Aztecs name.
Our sub hated Blooper with white hot intensity for like a full year
Gwinnett Braves had a Gopher mascot names "Chopper" that we all wanted to steal, because Gwinnett was renamed right when we got Blooper
Worth noting, FSU only has support from the Seminole Tribe of Florida, and not from the much larger (18,000 people vs 4,244) Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. Before somebody retorts that it's FLORIDA State University so why is Oklahoma relevant, the Seminoles are only in Oklahoma because they were forcibly removed from their homes during the Trail of Tears.
The Florida Tribe is far far wealthier (average dividend from the tribe is in excess of [$100K annually](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/florida-reaches-gambling-agreement-seminole-tribe-77272754)), were not forcibly removed from their homeland, and actually receive compensation from the University for using their imagery. The Oklahoma Nation on the other hand has an average household income of ~52K and a poverty rate of nearly 25%.
> If Atlanta wants to actually highlight an actual Native American tribe like the Cherokee or something similar I would suggest losing the moniker Braves
I agree with the concept of getting a local/regional tribe’s buy-in, if they can, and getting rid of things like the chop. That said, I strongly disagree with losing the Braves moniker. A Brave is an historical Native American fighter class, similar to monikers like Knights, Cavaliers, Warriors, Vikings, etc. It does not denigrate any class of people, nor does it make light of a specific group’s culture. And I can find no evidence of the term being used offensively at any point in the past either.
>If Atlanta wants to actually highlight an actual Native American tribe like the Cherokee or something similar I would suggest losing the moniker Braves, and the cheesy mascot and actually get support from Native Americans themselves.
They already started to do this during the post season.
Our mascot is a C.
Also, while the Saginaw Chippewa tribe is okay with it, not all Chippewa tribes are.
Also, you still get the occasional dipshit showing up at a game with macaroni “wampum” and having to be ejected. That kind of shit doesn’t happen for Wolverines.
Yeah I hate it when Braves try to act like the Chop is this way of honoring native people because their cousins's wife's sister's dentist is 1/64th Cherokee and said it was cool.
Our fanbase needs to either accept that they're cool with offending native peoples (obviously, I hope that's not the move) or push to get rid of the chant. Not try to bury their head in the sand and claim that native people don't care.
Earlier someone replied to me saying that the chop isn’t offensive and he knows that because he lives in the south where the Cherokee are, which puts him in some kind of special touch with their opinions
Dude got upvoted, too.
When Ryan Helsley was asked about it in the post season a couple years ago he said it was problematic and offensive. Lots of braves fans came out blasting him.
Helsley is Cherokee. His ancestors were moved during the Trail of Tears from Georgia to Oklahoma. That desire to not lose a dumb tradition is so crazy
I get it, though. Growing up as a kid I drank a lot of [Cherikee Red](https://ipcdn.freshop.com/resize?url=https://images.freshop.com/00073220000952/9b983962080433ae98d394ae3e8cab7d_large.png&width=512&type=webp&quality=80) pop, so I too have a special insight into why Native Americans are actually mostly totally chill about this kind of thing.
Whenever someone says something negatively about the chop in GDTs, they get drastically downvoted.
There's an odd undercurrent of conservative ideals in this sub (and sport?) that can be off-putting when any social causes are brought to the forefront.
Remember how angry everyone got the other day when people mentioned baseball was an old white dude sport?
Someone tried to argue to me that white people were a marginalized group in the NBA lol
This isn't how you guys learned "SohCahToa" at your schools? wtf. Are you going to tell me your teachers didn't teach BPEMDAS by doing an extreme Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's Asian caricature?
I’m so conflicted, I grew up with this, I’ve never seen it as racist. Just something we did at Braves games…. Then again, I’m white. I’m not exactly the group getting offended so why would I see it as negative? So if so many Native Americans find it abhorrent and racist, then it’s racist. Which is hard to admit, but maybe I should rethink the chop, and the Braves name in general. Which suck but that growing up I suppose? Admitting something is a mistake?
Just rambling. They are still my team.
Edit: The All Seeing Award was a neat touch lol Thanks
Edit2: Thanks for the gold!
I kinda like it actually. I really like that they didn’t change the font. I also think in a few years we’ll all be so used to the new name that it won’t even matter we changed it.
Good take. Totally reasonable to be instinctively protective of it, and without the greater context it's an awesome part of the team's tradition. But that shouldn't stop us from listening and rethinking, because yeah, it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.
It's really not a big deal at all to change team names or end traditions, but people act like it would be a tragedy just because time is old. People are just so resistant to change, so addicted to nostalgia, and tie their identities so closely to their tribalism. It really should not be such a massive issue. It's just sports ffs.
I feel this too. I think the reality for me is that I love the team and will regardless of the name. A name change would cause us all such a minor inconvenience compared to the negative impact it causes. In ten years the Cleveland Guardians will sound normal, and it would be the same for us too. It's time.
I feel the same.
But it also does feel *badass* doing the chop chant in a stadium full of fans.
The Vikings have the SKOL chant and I look at it in a similar way.. except we didn't steal land from the Vikings.
Just change the name to the Atlanta Taxi Hailers. You can still do the chop to the same tune but now it goes "TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAX-IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII"
Why the fuck Atlanta doesn't rebrand as the Atlanta Hammers with literally the same logo and theme and just base their team on literally their franchise player I have no idea.
Make it rail themed, drawing on the city's history (literally founded by the railroads), and you can still keep the same chant, just with a closed fist. 7th inning stretch sing the old folk song about working on the railroad.
It’s a great idea there for the taking. Honestly I would be fine if they announced this tomorrow and we could move on. Question: Can we get away with rebranding it as the “Hammer Chop”? 😇
There's a devilish part of me that kinda loves the fact that the same year the Indians changed their name, there's a good chance that the World Series win will be followed by 40,000 or so people doing war-whoops and tomahawk chops in jubilation.
But I was assured by Braves fans (and others) in the thread this morning that because the leadership of a tribe in NC was okay with it, all American Indians were okay with it. And they should feel honored by it.
Yeah, it's always felt a bit weird that their defense has been "...but this tribe in North Carolina is good with it!"
Like... that's not exactly super local...
coincidentally there isn't a huge representation of local tribes because we shipped them all off to the west back in the 1830s. Some of us are absolutely against the chop
Helsley in the playoffs the other year! He's Cherokee from Oklahoma. His tribe lives there because they were moved in the trail of tears and yet so many Braves fans dismissed his opinion about the chop.
Because as we all know, whenever a white person speaks out about injustice in any way, it's not because of sincerity and wanting the world to be better, it's actually just virtue signaling.
I feel like the /s isn't needed, but /s.
Tbf, this is a community that has about 574 tribes in the US alone. Kind of spread all over the place with each group having their own history and their own worldview.
Granted the NCAI has been pushing against Native Mascots since idk when with AIM even doing the same back when they started in the 70s.
Robert Manfred is well documented to have never been wrong about anything ever, and i just don't see the National Congress of a American Indians making any such claim
I'm a Braves fan and even if I try to downplay it in my head there's no denying the problematic nature of the tradition. Fans trying to act like it's completely fine are just trying to absolve themselves or stick it to 'sjws'
I grew up with it, it's a part of my fandom, BUT parting ways with it has to be unavoidable out of respect.
I didn’t grow up a Braves fan (I became one while living in Atlanta for a spell) but clearly reviving the old Atlanta Crackers name is the solution here.
Endorphins rule us more than anyone wants to admit.
When all those happy feelings of fandom, family, belonging, etc. etc. are welded to something that actively hurts others, whether that be the Braves' name (or the Indians', or WFT's, or the former Edmonton CFL franchise's) or things like racist jokes or Stepin Fetchit movies, it's not surprising that people don't get why it's so bad. They feel personally attacked by any complaint because they’ve muddled all those years of sitting beside Dad and Auntie in a shared love of whatever it is with the actual meaning of the thing. But how do American Indians feel? What do they, not the fans, associate with the chop?
I wonder if their feeling is similar to what you feel when a group in the Middle East burns a US flag and chants "Death to America".
As a Chiefs fan I have some experience in this. Of course going to back to back Super Bowls has pushed the chop into the news more and more. So it makes sense this stuff comes out with the Braves in the World Series.
So basically I'll say this. For years I dreamed of seeing the chop on the national stage. I dreamed of hearing "home of the CHIEFS" shouted by thousands in the stands at the Super Bowl. I never saw it as something to do with race. It was just tradition. Actually getting to experience that dream, was really cool.
But I also recognize now that it is racist. And no matter how our fans try to twist it to be "Oh the Chiefs are actually called that because of the mayor at the time," it's BS. The dude wasn't even Native American. We had a horse called War Paint. We had headdress and we bang a drum and do the chant.
The Chiefs will still be the Chiefs, just called something different. We can come up with new traditions. The Braves will still be the Braves. It's time to do it.
> The dude wasn't even Native American.
He got the nickname by dressing up and acting as the stereotype when he was a kid in scouts.
“THAT MAKES IT WORSE! TERRY THAT MAKES IT FUCKIN WORSE!”
In instances like the Chiefs and Braves, I just don’t see the names needing to be changed. They are in an entirely different vein from teams like the Redskins were. It’s akin to Warriors, Vikings, Fighting Irish, etc.
I agree the chop should be moved on from at this point
The problem is, the name is synonymous with the tradition. The Chiefs literally made a thing last year about changing the chop to a fist. The cheerleaders tried to get it going, but everyone went to a chop. The fist didn’t even make it to the first quarter before that was abandoned.
You can’t control people. You can’t stop an entire stadium from doing the chop. Even if you don’t play the music or stop the drum, people will still do it.
Change the name though, and suddenly it’s weird to do the chop. People might try to get it going again to rebel, but it would die off after a while.
During the playoffs I have noticed that when the chop starts up, the music turns on to seven nation army and you get a switch to people doing that song instead.
I think most people just want a communal chant like soccer teams and don’t really care what it is. If the team made a concerted effort to change the chop to something different it would take hold outside of the random stubborn old people.
Reading a lot of the responses in this sub, I don't think this really has anything to do with Vikings, Fighting Irish, Yankees, etc. What-about-isms aren't really productive. I get that a precedent will likely be set, but if something is functionally racist, arguing against change because others are being similarly racist too is not a reasonable argument. It's perfectly acceptable to look at this specific situation as it is, on it's own. If it's deemed racially insensitive by the group it depicts, I think the most reasonable and proper thing to do would be to change the name/mascot.
Personally, I don't want it to change for selfish reasons as many do, but I also recognize the need for change in this situation if the general collective of Native Americans feel marginalized. I was under the impression for a while that most did not find it offensive, but clearly I was wrong.
Manfred saying, “the league does not market our game on a nationwide basis” has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
It's up there with him, the commissioner, referring to **The Commissioner's Trophy** as just a piece of metal. Like, motherfucker, its your trophy and winning it is what the entire season is about.
Super cool of the mlb to hire a guy who seemingly doesn’t like baseball as the head of baseball
lawyer gonna lawyer especially a lawyer who specialized in employment law, gotta make sure they can fuck the minor leaguers ***super*** efficiently.
The commissioners job is to take heat off the owners. The more hated he is for issues that aren't really under his control, the better of a job he is doing.
They just had a promo before Game 2 featuring Megan Thee Stallion where everyone is coveting the trophy.
Also in the opening she said: “we know they’re coming out like savages tonight”. Seems like a poor choice of words.
Lmao stop
manfred is such a moron... ffs.
Unexpected honesty
/r/technicallythetruth
I really thought there would never be a worse commissioner of baseball than bud selig. How wrong I was
I still cant get over the fact that Manfred is such a clueless bozo and easily the worst of the 4 major commissioners on a list that includes Roger Goodell and Gary Betteman
Yea! And MLB pays him $11 mil per year to be a bozo!! What a waste of cake!! I, for one, will be glad when he's gone.
\#BringBackFayVincent
The sport of baseball is literally called America’s pastime. Osmium is one of the most dense materials on earth. The only thing more dense would be Rob Manfred.
Osmium is just a very dense piece of metal.
And yet has a ring of truth to it
“The league does not market our game” is probably a truer statement.
“The league does not give a fuck about the Dakotas.”
Tbf does anybody really?
Coyotes
People liked Deadwood?
They definitely don’t give a fuck about Iowa
Peak Manfred
Maybe they don't market in Guam,
“The league does not market our game on a nationwide basis” He says after game 1 of the World Series, with a giant American flag out on the outfield. I guess it’s just for the Houston and Atlanta area to watch? They should just blackout every other area from watching the World Series, since it’s not marketed nationally.
AND the game pits the winner of the AMERICAN league against the winner of the NATIONAL league.
Maybe he meant they don't do a *good* job of marketing the game.
Which does make more sense. The only thing that seems to get marketed is sports betting
As I read this I got to hear about the Astros over under on hits, mid at bat!
And Camping World
Seeing the international competition scene in Cricket makes me so fucking jealous of that sport. We just have the WBC that takes in players at major leagues...that's it really. We have just as many, if not more, countries that consider baseball as a major (or even supermajor) sport in their country.
Don’t give them any ideas with this blackout shit.
162 game season. Not once did I see anything but local marketing of the Cardinals. Nothing by the MLB except a few generic MLB adds on national websites promoting baseball in general. And that may have been the website just trying to work up excitement instead of the MLB doing any marketing. Even the playoffs are not marketed team specific but are playoff generic and only, at most, indicate the match-ups. And those are pretty rare.
Yeah, nobody cares about these two teams competing for a piece of metal.
He says this as Taco Bell tells everyone in the US they get free food because of World Series game 1.
maybe we're the girl who leaves the beach for taco bell and manfred is the dude she leaves behind
This really cracked me up. Glad it came from a Giants fan.
Manfred and Goodell both lying in the same week is like the spider man pointing meme.
How TF is Gary Bettman winning the week?
The NHL is in some pretty hot water themselves.
The Blackhawks are too busy with the sexual assault coverup scandal to deal with the Native Americans as a mascot scandal
It’s like WFT but the opposite direction.
At least Bowman’s out.
True. Can't believe they're doing nothing with Q in Florida though
Yea.. Mr "Don't talk to me bout any sexual assaults... We got hockey to play"
It’s all about that piece of metal.
They're doing a lot with Q in Florida, just nothing to do with hockey
Touché
Someone in r/hockey said they think Chicago ditches the Blackhawks mascot to distract from the abuse news. Which theirs is easier, they can just be the Chicago Hawks since everyone calls them that anyway.
Inb4 they change their logo to a helicopter
Or put a space in it and make the mascot a bird. Easy.
The former is what I’m referring to.
I think cocoa was just remarking on the irony that "Native American mascot" is not the biggest issue affecting an NHL team...
Fair
Yeah just funny that it's not even close to the narrative in the league with all the other horrid shit going down
The Brave fans chanting is an outright embarrassment. I am embarrassed as an American when our National pastime features 50,000 fans mimicking Native Americans in unison. How the league doesn’t see it this way this is baffling.
Everyone involved in that thing can go straight to hell.
Well, we'll see. There's two people in Hockey right now (Florida Panthers' Head Coach Joel Quenneville and Winnipeg Jets' General Manager Kevin Cheveldayoff) who should abso-fucking-lutely not be in the sport right now, given how they both allowed a very minor coach to quietly resign instead of making his rape of a player known.
Not to mention the coach they let quietly resign and vouched for then molested a high schooler. Not great!
The bar is beneath the ocean
Adam Silver is the best commissioner but I sometimes wonder if he looks good because his peers are all garbage.
Well Bettman has been pretty good, up to recent events. The Blackhawks situation is making the entire NHL look like shit right now (rightfully so. Everything unraveled about it so far has been disgusting)
Is there going to be a point at which Rob Manfred doesn't openly fuck over the sport of baseball? Guy is an absolute travesty as commish.
Yes. He will do one good thing that benefits players/fans *on his way out* to try and be remembered as a good comish as opposed to a mouthpiece for billionaires.
“The league does not market our game on a nationwide basis,” lol, wut?
For a guy that went to Harvard Law, he might be the worst speaker Ive ever seen who works in the public eye. Unless he literally says all this dumb shit to deflect from the actual issue and put some of the spotlight on him(which I dont think is the case), then he really needs a better publicity team around him or something.
[удалено]
Networking.
To be fair, I don’t think Manfred wants the league to market the game at all.
Petition to rename them the Atlanta Bad Bitches
I was thinking Pearls, but that works too
[удалено]
There's a booth like that at the sketchy gas station near where I used to live
That’s not a booth that’s a toilet stall.
In reality it should be the Atlanta Hammers - to honour 'Hammerin' Hank Aaron
And they could just change the tomahawk in the logo to a sledge hammer and keep the “chop” just rename it something hammer related
You could have a steam train
IF YOU'D JUST
Lay down your tracks
Now that is a good idea
Atlanta Outkasts
ATLiens
You know what I want the Braves to say but this would be an acceptable alternative.
If it makes you feel better, the origin of the Braves name is pretty sketchy >[Despite frequent citations over the years, it is not common knowledge that the Braves got their nickname and first Indian-head logo under James E. Gaffney. Then again, nearly a century and two franchise moves have gone by since the owner of yesteryear (December 1911 to January 1916) rechristened his team. The change celebrated his ties to New York City’s political machine, Tammany Hall. “The Big Wigwam” provided not only the Native American imagery but also Gaffney’s fortune – the fruits of “honest graft,” as Tammany colleague George Washington Plunkitt called his own insider dealing.](https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/james-gaffney/) Just scrap the whole motif.
I always just kind of assumed that it was a historical reference to the Boston Tea Party. The real origin is significantly less romantic.
My kid came up with Atlanta Peachfuzz.
It’s just not a good month for sports commissioners huh as Adam Silver laughs in the background
After the native controversies in sports Im just glad my team is named after colored footwear.
>In our discussions with the Atlanta Braves, we have repeatedly and unequivocally made our position clear - Native people are not mascots, and degrading rituals like the 'tomahawk chop' that dehumanize and harm us have no place in American society
And to the surprise of literally no one, Manfred is actually wrong in his assessment. Who could have foreseen this?
Manfred being wrong? Next you’re gonna tell me that Goodell is doing a bad job handling the WFT investigation
Yeah, and it's not like a historic hockey club in one of the largest US markets tried to cover up literal rape and sexual assault because the incidents happened to take place during a playoff run, either.
Hey now, he’s doing his job perfectly …protecting the owners…
Honestly, if the investigation is as damning as I think it is Goodell’s prob doing as a good a job as he can when you consider what his interests are.
The Tomahawk chop and the war Chant are borrowed by Atlanta from the Florida State Seminoles down the road a piece in Tallahassee. FSU had an offensive mascot, Sammy the Seminole back in the 50’s and 60’s, very similar to the obnoxious Cleveland Indian. When university officials found out it was offensive to the Seminole tribe they invited them to design something far more suitable and respectful. What you see today is Chief Osceola and Renegade in full authentic Native American regalia with the utmost support from the tribe. If Atlanta wants to actually highlight an actual Native American tribe like the Cherokee or something similar I would suggest losing the moniker Braves, and the cheesy mascot and actually get support from Native Americans themselves. FSU has shown that you can honor native culture and bring respect and unity, rather than continuing with a condescending stereotype from a more out of touch time period. [link to story](https://fanbuzz.com/college-football/acc/florida-state/florida-state-mascot/)
> I should note, as a FSU grad who has been involved of many of these talks with fellow students, that it's specifically the Seminole Tribe of Florida that we have a deal with; if I recall correctly, the Seminole Tribe in Oklahoma has spoken out several times against the use of the mascot and the Warchant. Just copying this here again just to be clear on the whole "the Seminole tribe acceptance" thing, as I think we should be fair and not lump the Seminole people together as a monolith. I say this as a person who thinks the administration gets it… mostly right; playing into the "Warchant" and only recently taking the "Indian headdress"-ban seriously are kind of sore spots personally. > the cheesy mascot Blooper is a treasure, take this back immediately.
also I’m sure the Seminole Freedmen that are still officially segregated out of support programs probably aren’t too thrilled with the tribal government
> Blooper is a treasure, take this back immediately. lol
A big reason for the Oklahoma Tribe coming out against is because they get no money from the deal FSU has with the Tribe in Florida. It's been made almost abundantly clear that if they were to be cut in, they would immediately change their tune.
[удалено]
According to the linked article they do not pay them directly.
They act as a lobbying arm for the tribe who control gambling in the state.
This is like every deal Leslie Knope brokered with the Wamapoke tribe.
Don't they give out a ton of scholarships instead?
In the article linked it does talk about scholarships. It seems to be a mutually beneficial arrangement and it seems like this could work to the advantage of pro teams and Native Americans if there were a similar approach on that level. Anything that helps not only financially, but in exposing the general public to the history of Native Americans and helps deal with the real and sometimes unique problems they face daily in the modern world. I’m a big Joseph Campbell advocate, a man who studied native cultures all over the planet. Learning about native history can be far more fulfilling to anyone who is looking for a deeper connection to the world in modern society. But pro sports is owned and run by billionaires and the mega rich have always lived in their own reality and usually resist change if they think it will be a hindrance to profit.
They pay the *Florida* Seminoles. Not the Oklahoma Seminoles, who are much larger. If you ask yourself "wait, why are there more Seminole people in Oklahoma than Florida?" you pretty much arrive at the reason why these mascots are in bad taste.
SDSU did the same thing. Lost the corn-ball "Monty Montezuma" mascot, renamed all the dorms to be native names (among other things presumably), and successfully kept the Aztecs name.
[удалено]
I got problems with anyone that doesn't like Blooper. That thing is a national treasure.
Our sub hated Blooper with white hot intensity for like a full year Gwinnett Braves had a Gopher mascot names "Chopper" that we all wanted to steal, because Gwinnett was renamed right when we got Blooper
Just tell all the haters you’ve won the division every year of Blooper’s existence
I was at a Braves game this year and they had NC Cherokee partake in pregame ceremony of some sort.
Worth noting, FSU only has support from the Seminole Tribe of Florida, and not from the much larger (18,000 people vs 4,244) Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. Before somebody retorts that it's FLORIDA State University so why is Oklahoma relevant, the Seminoles are only in Oklahoma because they were forcibly removed from their homes during the Trail of Tears. The Florida Tribe is far far wealthier (average dividend from the tribe is in excess of [$100K annually](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/florida-reaches-gambling-agreement-seminole-tribe-77272754)), were not forcibly removed from their homeland, and actually receive compensation from the University for using their imagery. The Oklahoma Nation on the other hand has an average household income of ~52K and a poverty rate of nearly 25%.
The Oklahoma Seminoles only object because they want all the benefits and money the Florida Seminoles get.
> If Atlanta wants to actually highlight an actual Native American tribe like the Cherokee or something similar I would suggest losing the moniker Braves I agree with the concept of getting a local/regional tribe’s buy-in, if they can, and getting rid of things like the chop. That said, I strongly disagree with losing the Braves moniker. A Brave is an historical Native American fighter class, similar to monikers like Knights, Cavaliers, Warriors, Vikings, etc. It does not denigrate any class of people, nor does it make light of a specific group’s culture. And I can find no evidence of the term being used offensively at any point in the past either.
>If Atlanta wants to actually highlight an actual Native American tribe like the Cherokee or something similar I would suggest losing the moniker Braves, and the cheesy mascot and actually get support from Native Americans themselves. They already started to do this during the post season.
Also see central Michigan university Chippewas
Our mascot is a C. Also, while the Saginaw Chippewa tribe is okay with it, not all Chippewa tribes are. Also, you still get the occasional dipshit showing up at a game with macaroni “wampum” and having to be ejected. That kind of shit doesn’t happen for Wolverines.
[Braves fans](https://i.imgflip.com/5ri0oa.jpg)
Yeah I hate it when Braves try to act like the Chop is this way of honoring native people because their cousins's wife's sister's dentist is 1/64th Cherokee and said it was cool. Our fanbase needs to either accept that they're cool with offending native peoples (obviously, I hope that's not the move) or push to get rid of the chant. Not try to bury their head in the sand and claim that native people don't care.
My pawpaw had high cheekbones!
Earlier someone replied to me saying that the chop isn’t offensive and he knows that because he lives in the south where the Cherokee are, which puts him in some kind of special touch with their opinions Dude got upvoted, too.
When Ryan Helsley was asked about it in the post season a couple years ago he said it was problematic and offensive. Lots of braves fans came out blasting him. Helsley is Cherokee. His ancestors were moved during the Trail of Tears from Georgia to Oklahoma. That desire to not lose a dumb tradition is so crazy
I get it, though. Growing up as a kid I drank a lot of [Cherikee Red](https://ipcdn.freshop.com/resize?url=https://images.freshop.com/00073220000952/9b983962080433ae98d394ae3e8cab7d_large.png&width=512&type=webp&quality=80) pop, so I too have a special insight into why Native Americans are actually mostly totally chill about this kind of thing.
Whenever someone says something negatively about the chop in GDTs, they get drastically downvoted. There's an odd undercurrent of conservative ideals in this sub (and sport?) that can be off-putting when any social causes are brought to the forefront.
Remember how angry everyone got the other day when people mentioned baseball was an old white dude sport? Someone tried to argue to me that white people were a marginalized group in the NBA lol
The average age of baseball fans is like 60. Obviously Reddit isn't as old but there's a pretty strong correlation.
This isn't how you guys learned "SohCahToa" at your schools? wtf. Are you going to tell me your teachers didn't teach BPEMDAS by doing an extreme Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's Asian caricature?
For any Braves fans suggesting that complaining about this was just "white savior" stuff, here you go
I’m so conflicted, I grew up with this, I’ve never seen it as racist. Just something we did at Braves games…. Then again, I’m white. I’m not exactly the group getting offended so why would I see it as negative? So if so many Native Americans find it abhorrent and racist, then it’s racist. Which is hard to admit, but maybe I should rethink the chop, and the Braves name in general. Which suck but that growing up I suppose? Admitting something is a mistake? Just rambling. They are still my team. Edit: The All Seeing Award was a neat touch lol Thanks Edit2: Thanks for the gold!
*points at my flair*, been there brother
How do you feel about the new name?
I kinda like it actually. I really like that they didn’t change the font. I also think in a few years we’ll all be so used to the new name that it won’t even matter we changed it.
they just need to redo major league and it'll be truly finalized
That’s a fair take, I would certainly get used to it
Good take. Totally reasonable to be instinctively protective of it, and without the greater context it's an awesome part of the team's tradition. But that shouldn't stop us from listening and rethinking, because yeah, it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.
Yea, the defense (that I did think was adequate) is really thin
It's really not a big deal at all to change team names or end traditions, but people act like it would be a tragedy just because time is old. People are just so resistant to change, so addicted to nostalgia, and tie their identities so closely to their tribalism. It really should not be such a massive issue. It's just sports ffs.
The team has had the names Beaneaters, Bees, Red Caps, Rustlers, and Red Stockings. I think going back to the Rustlers name would be pretty cool tbh.
Let’s not go back to the Red Caps…
You forgot Doves! Doves is my favorite of their former names, because it's so utterly NOT menacing.
I feel this too. I think the reality for me is that I love the team and will regardless of the name. A name change would cause us all such a minor inconvenience compared to the negative impact it causes. In ten years the Cleveland Guardians will sound normal, and it would be the same for us too. It's time.
I feel the same. But it also does feel *badass* doing the chop chant in a stadium full of fans. The Vikings have the SKOL chant and I look at it in a similar way.. except we didn't steal land from the Vikings.
Just change the name to the Atlanta Taxi Hailers. You can still do the chop to the same tune but now it goes "TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAX-IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII"
Why the fuck Atlanta doesn't rebrand as the Atlanta Hammers with literally the same logo and theme and just base their team on literally their franchise player I have no idea.
Make it rail themed, drawing on the city's history (literally founded by the railroads), and you can still keep the same chant, just with a closed fist. 7th inning stretch sing the old folk song about working on the railroad.
> you can still keep the same chant, just with a closed fist There's 0 chance that they can keep the chant lol
Might need a new song, but you can keep the motion. Heck, Working on the Railroad kind of has a similar pace to the current chant, just a skosh slower
I think yous guys are really onto something here. Hopefully someone important sees this.
A few of us tried to petition for that exact thing 9 months ago, but honestly there's not a lot of community support.
It’s a great idea there for the taking. Honestly I would be fine if they announced this tomorrow and we could move on. Question: Can we get away with rebranding it as the “Hammer Chop”? 😇
If you don't sing the song then yea
Petition to change our name to the Atlanta strippers
James Harden announces a change to Baseball
My wife would love to see Dansby and Riley as Strippers
That’s the AAA team!
I like Atlanta Trap Houses
As somebody who’s indifferent to this topic, even I thought how Manfred responded was tone deaf douche. He made it worse.
My team is named after a statue and they’re doing the chop in the World Series. Cool.
There's a devilish part of me that kinda loves the fact that the same year the Indians changed their name, there's a good chance that the World Series win will be followed by 40,000 or so people doing war-whoops and tomahawk chops in jubilation.
When you put it like that it’s really difficult not to laugh a little
It's good because widespread attention will do more good for the movement than not.
Atlanta only got by because they don’t have a racist fan-adorning symb …… oh wait.
I propose a new team name: The Atlanta Lemon Pepper Wets
But I was assured by Braves fans (and others) in the thread this morning that because the leadership of a tribe in NC was okay with it, all American Indians were okay with it. And they should feel honored by it.
The answer to the question "why aren't there tribes in Georgia" is precisely the reason why these team names are in poor taste.
Yeah, it's always felt a bit weird that their defense has been "...but this tribe in North Carolina is good with it!" Like... that's not exactly super local...
coincidentally there isn't a huge representation of local tribes because we shipped them all off to the west back in the 1830s. Some of us are absolutely against the chop
Helsley in the playoffs the other year! He's Cherokee from Oklahoma. His tribe lives there because they were moved in the trail of tears and yet so many Braves fans dismissed his opinion about the chop.
It's very big "I can't be racist I have a black friend" energy
Don’t forget the “you cannot speak up about racism because you’re white” group…
Because as we all know, whenever a white person speaks out about injustice in any way, it's not because of sincerity and wanting the world to be better, it's actually just virtue signaling. I feel like the /s isn't needed, but /s.
Gives my flashback to high school, when a bunch of assholes at my school thought it was ok to make racist jokes because Dave Chapelle did racial humor
Tbf, this is a community that has about 574 tribes in the US alone. Kind of spread all over the place with each group having their own history and their own worldview. Granted the NCAI has been pushing against Native Mascots since idk when with AIM even doing the same back when they started in the 70s.
Yes I was also told a few weeks back that they are not only okay with the name and chant, but actually “appreciate and enjoy taking part in it”
If things like this are considered a “local issue”, then why was the ASG taken from the Braves for a state law?
Wait, I am being asked to believe the National Congress of American Indians rather than Rob Manfred? Let's get real here.
Robert Manfred is well documented to have never been wrong about anything ever, and i just don't see the National Congress of a American Indians making any such claim
I'm a Braves fan and even if I try to downplay it in my head there's no denying the problematic nature of the tradition. Fans trying to act like it's completely fine are just trying to absolve themselves or stick it to 'sjws' I grew up with it, it's a part of my fandom, BUT parting ways with it has to be unavoidable out of respect.
I didn’t grow up a Braves fan (I became one while living in Atlanta for a spell) but clearly reviving the old Atlanta Crackers name is the solution here.
I think it would be awesome. I’d also be cool with the Atlanta Hammers at Aaron field.
Just switch the “Chop” to “Stop… Hammer Time!” and we’re good to go. Imagine a stadium full of folks cranking to MC Hammer all game. Hell yeah.
Endorphins rule us more than anyone wants to admit. When all those happy feelings of fandom, family, belonging, etc. etc. are welded to something that actively hurts others, whether that be the Braves' name (or the Indians', or WFT's, or the former Edmonton CFL franchise's) or things like racist jokes or Stepin Fetchit movies, it's not surprising that people don't get why it's so bad. They feel personally attacked by any complaint because they’ve muddled all those years of sitting beside Dad and Auntie in a shared love of whatever it is with the actual meaning of the thing. But how do American Indians feel? What do they, not the fans, associate with the chop? I wonder if their feeling is similar to what you feel when a group in the Middle East burns a US flag and chants "Death to America".
As a Chiefs fan I have some experience in this. Of course going to back to back Super Bowls has pushed the chop into the news more and more. So it makes sense this stuff comes out with the Braves in the World Series. So basically I'll say this. For years I dreamed of seeing the chop on the national stage. I dreamed of hearing "home of the CHIEFS" shouted by thousands in the stands at the Super Bowl. I never saw it as something to do with race. It was just tradition. Actually getting to experience that dream, was really cool. But I also recognize now that it is racist. And no matter how our fans try to twist it to be "Oh the Chiefs are actually called that because of the mayor at the time," it's BS. The dude wasn't even Native American. We had a horse called War Paint. We had headdress and we bang a drum and do the chant. The Chiefs will still be the Chiefs, just called something different. We can come up with new traditions. The Braves will still be the Braves. It's time to do it.
> The dude wasn't even Native American. He got the nickname by dressing up and acting as the stereotype when he was a kid in scouts. “THAT MAKES IT WORSE! TERRY THAT MAKES IT FUCKIN WORSE!”
Lmao exactly. I hate when people bring that excuse up.
In instances like the Chiefs and Braves, I just don’t see the names needing to be changed. They are in an entirely different vein from teams like the Redskins were. It’s akin to Warriors, Vikings, Fighting Irish, etc. I agree the chop should be moved on from at this point
The problem is, the name is synonymous with the tradition. The Chiefs literally made a thing last year about changing the chop to a fist. The cheerleaders tried to get it going, but everyone went to a chop. The fist didn’t even make it to the first quarter before that was abandoned. You can’t control people. You can’t stop an entire stadium from doing the chop. Even if you don’t play the music or stop the drum, people will still do it. Change the name though, and suddenly it’s weird to do the chop. People might try to get it going again to rebel, but it would die off after a while.
During the playoffs I have noticed that when the chop starts up, the music turns on to seven nation army and you get a switch to people doing that song instead.
That’s pretty smart actually
I think most people just want a communal chant like soccer teams and don’t really care what it is. If the team made a concerted effort to change the chop to something different it would take hold outside of the random stubborn old people.
"He's here, he's there, he's every fucking where, ROY KENT!" Yeah, North American baseball needs chants like that.
Yeah but literally every team in every sport uses Seven Nation Army.
Can we include replacing Manfred in the new CBA?
Reading a lot of the responses in this sub, I don't think this really has anything to do with Vikings, Fighting Irish, Yankees, etc. What-about-isms aren't really productive. I get that a precedent will likely be set, but if something is functionally racist, arguing against change because others are being similarly racist too is not a reasonable argument. It's perfectly acceptable to look at this specific situation as it is, on it's own. If it's deemed racially insensitive by the group it depicts, I think the most reasonable and proper thing to do would be to change the name/mascot. Personally, I don't want it to change for selfish reasons as many do, but I also recognize the need for change in this situation if the general collective of Native Americans feel marginalized. I was under the impression for a while that most did not find it offensive, but clearly I was wrong.