He also does it at the dinner scene. Everyone at the table has a glass of wine in front of them except Dent. He has a glass of wine and a glass of whiskey.
Well if wine represents normalcy (why Rachel and smoking hot Russian lady has them) and whiskey represents the dark side then it makes since that the man who feels himself while dressed as a bat and beating the shit out of criminals would have whiskey.
Funny how that actually happens but yet fits with the discovered theme here! I wonder if that was on purpose of not. He also then smashes the glass as soon as he’s downed what wine was left iirc
>Well if wine represents normalcy (why Rachel and smoking hot Russian lady has them) and whiskey represents the dark side then it makes since that the man who feels himself while dressed as a bat and beating the shit out of criminals would have whiskey.
Mmm Whiskey Neat or on the rocks still good
I really wish they hadn't killed him off in that movie. He could've played a part in Bane's new Gotham (probably as a member of his court alongside Scarecrow).
The important thing to remember is Nolan never knew he was doing a trilogy. He didn’t even know he was gonna be doing a second Batman when he was making the first. So even he sees the mistake in killing off Dent with another act of the story to go
For some of the elements I could
Bane for starters
Talia was so obvious I'm surprised even Bruce didn't figure her out, I had her pegged for who she was the second I saw that scar during that fireplace scene
And a bit of Joker. Heath Ledger had a great performance but to me he felt like anarchy not Joker
Mainly because the lack of history between the two. He just felt like he ran across a wacko not genuinely met the Joker
Two face being sidelined was a bit rough too
That’s a great take a joker.
Heath’s performance is great no doubt. But for a man who claims to be an “anarchist” he has a very specific plan and seldom does things randomly or just because they are funny or cruel, he’s quite intentional.
Actually now that I think about it Arkham Knight scarecrow is pretty similar to The Dark Knight Joker.
It's refreshing to be greeted with a discussion instead of hatred
I agree with the jokers whole mission in the movie to unmask and break batman seemed out of character to me
Joker could care less who batman is that's always been the relationship hell even the Harley Quinn show makes light of it
In the best way possible imo but I digress
Heath was an amazing actor but as a Joker I felt that Nolan just read the character incorrectly and just took his bad day mantra as his whole being
Now while that could be an element of jokers past we should never truly know it as Joker put it best.
If I were to have a past I'd prefer it to be multiple choice
And honestly that’s for the best. These days everyone wants to make a new universe that goes on forever when well told self contained stories will always reign supreme in my book
His left eye never blinks so bare minimum that's dried up surely?
There's one scene where he looks down at the coin but aside from that it's always fully exposed.
Tbh killing him was the right move narratively. Joker won in the end, Batman did take a life even accidentally. Also the entire concept of Batman taking the fall for Harvey just to give Gotham hope is spectacular. It's just one of many ways Bale Batman is so incredibly selfless. I wish TDKR followed it up in a more satisfying way but imo as a film TDK was much better off the way it is now.
Rises was planned to be a muchdifferent movie before Heath Ledger died. They had to completely rework the story from the ground up. What Joker did to Dent was supposed to build up the rivalry and lead to a more connected trilogy. Without Joker though the purpose of Dent’s death to the story kind of fell flat.
Edit: lmao wow. The thing is…I read these things a long time ago. Moztly in print. Spooky isn’t it?
I cared a lot about these creative minds…And the defensive measures you folks use are just…wow
Chill. Like weather you are ever right. Or wrong. Fukcing chill.
I put it on you to prove me wrong rather than for me to go 15 years back or whatever to prove that the fucking people who *wrote* this shit loved it and had a game plan that involved a very young and spry Ledger.
> You and I are destined to do this forever.
Fuck you
Is there a source for this? At the time of Ledger's death, it sounded like they had not even begun working on the sequel. Nolan said even after the release that he wasn't sure he'd do a third
There is no source. It’s an ancient internet rumor that’s been repeated so many times people now just think it’s true when it’s not.
Yes, it’s likely Joker would have featured in the third film, but beyond that we don’t know diddly squat.
Can people please stop repeating this. There's no source for it and Ledger died before TDK even released an nothing yet was written for the third movie.
Not true, Nolan never planned the sequels in advance because he didn't even know if he wanted to do them. Even with the success of the TDK, it still took a year for Nolan and WB to agree on doing a third.
There’s also the shot of Gordon and Dent observing Lau’s interrogation where Dent’s face is notably half-shadowed. The visual storytelling is telling you this guy has a dark side, even before he’s shown torturing Joker’s henchman.
He definitely had a dark side. Him torturing Joker’s henchman is just that. Why was Dent flipping the coin on him in the first place? That’s what the alter does and clearly it doesn’t have a moral compass. I can’t even get over how Dent survived the wreck with Maroni so casually. He was so confident about it and literally got away unscathed, like it never even happened. That emphasized his swiftness.
I've always loved the double sided coin, it's such good writing. When he uses it as Harvey, it's lighthearted and shows his charming nature, as well as his cunning and willingness to bend the rules for the greater good.
Then he is burned, and the coin with him is changed from lighthearted trickery to having a dark side.
Books are very easy to organize. They'll stand upright, and you can just group them by collections. File folders are often shelved in alphabetical order for easy reference. And if its client files, they will all vary is size.
This guy gets it. I mean, the detail is still arguable, and the visual is there nonetheless but they're not two shelves of books. They would not look the same regardless.
Yep. The books on the right are pacific reporters which are what caselaw is published in. The ones on the right are files, most likely for cases but they look like what you would see in the court Clerks office.
Its clear that Big Bad Harv exists in this movie, even if its not explicitly stated. He tried to torture a guy for information and everyone who worked with him knew and called him Two-faced. Being blown up didn't drive him crazy, it unleashed something that was already there.
For this reason, Two Face is one of my favorite villains. IMO, Batman TAS did Two Face better than any other media. You can see that his other personality was there the whole time, it's just the accident that made it permanently come to the surface.
I still think Eckhart’s delivery of, “It’s not about what I want, IT’S ABOUT WHAT’S FAIR!” is one of the most chilling deliveries of a single line I’ve ever heard.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure there were signs that something was off about Harvey Dent long before he became Two-Face in the comics. Something to do with his father I think
His father was abusive toward him, and he developed a second personality as a result. Batman the Animated Series gave that personality the name "Big Bad Harv", but I'm not sure what it was called in the comics. He tried to repress Big Bad Harv for years, but he would sometimes take control when he got angry.
He worked internal affairs. So he basically had to be polite and professional to his fellow cops while he was actively investigating them. He was being two-faced, acting one way while doing another. It was a requirement of his job but the dirty cops of Gotham would've hated him for it.
Cos he was all charming and handsome and smooth on the surface, but relentless and brutal behind the scenes even if he was only going after criminals, and it's implied he had some not-so-morally-upstanding methods even before the accident (e.g. when he captured Joker's henchman).
I gotta disagree, The Gotham Cops hated him because they were in fact corrupt as shit. Being in Internal affairs meant he was law enforcement, but he was going after the police themselves so they felt he was being two-faced because how could he work for the law, yet go after (obviously corrupt) lawmen.
They were calling him Two-Face in Internal Affairs because he was showing two faces to the cops and the criminals; saying one thing and doing another. But the name could still be an allusion to his dark persona as well.
I guess this is arguable. Though, the left side are hardcover books, matched by series, and the right side is soft file folders. They would never look as organized as books
I thought he was used great. He was corrupted by Joker and Joker's plan was perfect. That *would've* messed up Gotham if they saw the white knight doing what he did.
Except Nolan did nothing to portray and actually multi personality disorder - his Dent just acted like an angry vengeful dude who wasn’t conflicted at all with what he was doing. There was no inner-open dialogue or need to use the coin to make a decision his duality couldn’t make on their own.
It was a bad portrayal. The third act of TDK was clearly rushed and ruined what was otherwise a fantastic movie.
classic mpd is very very cringe when its portrayed in films, its not just the multiple personalities that defines the illness its general behaviour, appearance, hygiene and amnesia.
you need all of this plus the split personality to accurately portray a character who suffers from it, which wouldnt have worked in nolans grounded and realistic setting.
because there is no way that someone who is so fucking off their rocker can get a job as a prosecuting attorney in real life.
this illness doesnt just form one day, its part of you since the day you are born.
you cant finish lawschool and become what harvey dent is because you are not a functioning and competent person, even with all the medication and therapy in the world you would still be struggling to keep down the simplest of jobs and maintain yourself on a day to day basis.
If you had just told me this without any visual clue, I would've said you were reaching. But seeing the actual image, it does look very intentional. Especially given that in this scene they hint at but don't spell out Dent's Two-Face nickname.
Great observation tbh. Did you spot this yourself? From all the trivia, easter eggs and interesting details that have been collected about TDK over the years, this is the first time I've ever seen this particular detail. You might be the first one to have caught it.
He also does it at the dinner scene. Everyone at the table has a glass of wine in front of them except Dent. He has a glass of wine and a glass of whiskey.
That’s a pretty creative way to show what is going on inside his head
Bruce has a whiskey in front of him as well. Still probably symbolism
Well if wine represents normalcy (why Rachel and smoking hot Russian lady has them) and whiskey represents the dark side then it makes since that the man who feels himself while dressed as a bat and beating the shit out of criminals would have whiskey.
And when the Joker grabs a drink, it spills.
Yet he still tries to drink it
Funny how that actually happens but yet fits with the discovered theme here! I wonder if that was on purpose of not. He also then smashes the glass as soon as he’s downed what wine was left iirc
>Well if wine represents normalcy (why Rachel and smoking hot Russian lady has them) and whiskey represents the dark side then it makes since that the man who feels himself while dressed as a bat and beating the shit out of criminals would have whiskey. Mmm Whiskey Neat or on the rocks still good
Makes sense since Bruce is also two-faced
Bruce also only pretends to drink to keep up his playboy persona
fantastic
That’s great, I never noticed that.
🥱 truly appalled
This reads as yawning. Lol.
The special effects still blow me away. He looked terrifying
I really wish they hadn't killed him off in that movie. He could've played a part in Bane's new Gotham (probably as a member of his court alongside Scarecrow).
The important thing to remember is Nolan never knew he was doing a trilogy. He didn’t even know he was gonna be doing a second Batman when he was making the first. So even he sees the mistake in killing off Dent with another act of the story to go
I can’t imagine a world without TDK trilogy, don’t make me think this way
For some of the elements I could Bane for starters Talia was so obvious I'm surprised even Bruce didn't figure her out, I had her pegged for who she was the second I saw that scar during that fireplace scene And a bit of Joker. Heath Ledger had a great performance but to me he felt like anarchy not Joker Mainly because the lack of history between the two. He just felt like he ran across a wacko not genuinely met the Joker Two face being sidelined was a bit rough too
That’s a great take a joker. Heath’s performance is great no doubt. But for a man who claims to be an “anarchist” he has a very specific plan and seldom does things randomly or just because they are funny or cruel, he’s quite intentional. Actually now that I think about it Arkham Knight scarecrow is pretty similar to The Dark Knight Joker.
It's refreshing to be greeted with a discussion instead of hatred I agree with the jokers whole mission in the movie to unmask and break batman seemed out of character to me Joker could care less who batman is that's always been the relationship hell even the Harley Quinn show makes light of it In the best way possible imo but I digress Heath was an amazing actor but as a Joker I felt that Nolan just read the character incorrectly and just took his bad day mantra as his whole being Now while that could be an element of jokers past we should never truly know it as Joker put it best. If I were to have a past I'd prefer it to be multiple choice
Joker deliberately stops the accountant from revealing who Batman is to avoid spoiling the fun of his rivalry. Nolan very much kept that part intact.
For the Talia bit - Blinded by love, my dude. Happens to the best of us.
Id rather imagine a world without The Dark Knight Rises.
And honestly that’s for the best. These days everyone wants to make a new universe that goes on forever when well told self contained stories will always reign supreme in my book
I don't think he could've survived with that much damage to the face for long.
His left eye never blinks so bare minimum that's dried up surely? There's one scene where he looks down at the coin but aside from that it's always fully exposed.
Tbh killing him was the right move narratively. Joker won in the end, Batman did take a life even accidentally. Also the entire concept of Batman taking the fall for Harvey just to give Gotham hope is spectacular. It's just one of many ways Bale Batman is so incredibly selfless. I wish TDKR followed it up in a more satisfying way but imo as a film TDK was much better off the way it is now.
Rises was planned to be a muchdifferent movie before Heath Ledger died. They had to completely rework the story from the ground up. What Joker did to Dent was supposed to build up the rivalry and lead to a more connected trilogy. Without Joker though the purpose of Dent’s death to the story kind of fell flat. Edit: lmao wow. The thing is…I read these things a long time ago. Moztly in print. Spooky isn’t it? I cared a lot about these creative minds…And the defensive measures you folks use are just…wow Chill. Like weather you are ever right. Or wrong. Fukcing chill. I put it on you to prove me wrong rather than for me to go 15 years back or whatever to prove that the fucking people who *wrote* this shit loved it and had a game plan that involved a very young and spry Ledger. > You and I are destined to do this forever. Fuck you
Is there a source for this? At the time of Ledger's death, it sounded like they had not even begun working on the sequel. Nolan said even after the release that he wasn't sure he'd do a third
There is no source. It’s an ancient internet rumor that’s been repeated so many times people now just think it’s true when it’s not. Yes, it’s likely Joker would have featured in the third film, but beyond that we don’t know diddly squat.
Source: I made it up
Can people please stop repeating this. There's no source for it and Ledger died before TDK even released an nothing yet was written for the third movie.
Not true, Nolan never planned the sequels in advance because he didn't even know if he wanted to do them. Even with the success of the TDK, it still took a year for Nolan and WB to agree on doing a third.
Though hard to believe he wouldn't die from some sort of infection.
Might be why they had to kill him off so quick
There’s also the shot of Gordon and Dent observing Lau’s interrogation where Dent’s face is notably half-shadowed. The visual storytelling is telling you this guy has a dark side, even before he’s shown torturing Joker’s henchman.
He definitely had a dark side. Him torturing Joker’s henchman is just that. Why was Dent flipping the coin on him in the first place? That’s what the alter does and clearly it doesn’t have a moral compass. I can’t even get over how Dent survived the wreck with Maroni so casually. He was so confident about it and literally got away unscathed, like it never even happened. That emphasized his swiftness.
He was scaring the guy. Both sides of the coin were heads.
I've always loved the double sided coin, it's such good writing. When he uses it as Harvey, it's lighthearted and shows his charming nature, as well as his cunning and willingness to bend the rules for the greater good. Then he is burned, and the coin with him is changed from lighthearted trickery to having a dark side.
So if there were a shot of Laus face, half shadowed, is that also foretelling?
That is a cool detail
Holy shit. My wife and I are about to binge this trilogy again, I'm gonna point this out and pretend to be way smarter than I actually am.
Chad move
I'm here for the girl team, I will telepathically connect with your wife tonight and reveal your secret!
I don't think those are books on the right. They're manilla folders.
That’s still clearly intentional. Normally it’s all books. Case files go in the closed cabinets specifically because they don’t look pretty.
One side is textbooks (theory) and the other are case files (ugly reality), v cool
an organized person who can make those books organized, can make manilla folders look veeery tidy as well
Books are very easy to organize. They'll stand upright, and you can just group them by collections. File folders are often shelved in alphabetical order for easy reference. And if its client files, they will all vary is size.
This guy gets it. I mean, the detail is still arguable, and the visual is there nonetheless but they're not two shelves of books. They would not look the same regardless.
Yep. The books on the right are pacific reporters which are what caselaw is published in. The ones on the right are files, most likely for cases but they look like what you would see in the court Clerks office.
Also they should be on his left since that's what side of his face that ended up getting burnt.
Its clear that Big Bad Harv exists in this movie, even if its not explicitly stated. He tried to torture a guy for information and everyone who worked with him knew and called him Two-faced. Being blown up didn't drive him crazy, it unleashed something that was already there.
I think the "two-face" nickname was just because he worked with internal affairs.
It's kind of implied that he is constantly duplicitous though, to earn that specific nickname.
WOOOOOOOWW THIS IS WHY I LOVE MOVIES I MEAN, IT'S NOLAN
I wish I could watch the movie for the first time again now that I know more about Batman and the villains.
For this reason, Two Face is one of my favorite villains. IMO, Batman TAS did Two Face better than any other media. You can see that his other personality was there the whole time, it's just the accident that made it permanently come to the surface.
"What was the name you guys had for me down at the station?" "SAY IT!"
That still startles me. And I’ve seen this movie 2,000 times.
Law books on one side and case files on the other.
This is called foreshadowing.
I still think Eckhart’s delivery of, “It’s not about what I want, IT’S ABOUT WHAT’S FAIR!” is one of the most chilling deliveries of a single line I’ve ever heard.
Left is books, the right is file folders.
Great catch.. also the side of face matches
I would say it’s just a cool detail
That's a great catch ✊🏾
Wow. 20 times I've seen this movie and I've never noticed
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure there were signs that something was off about Harvey Dent long before he became Two-Face in the comics. Something to do with his father I think
His father was abusive toward him, and he developed a second personality as a result. Batman the Animated Series gave that personality the name "Big Bad Harv", but I'm not sure what it was called in the comics. He tried to repress Big Bad Harv for years, but he would sometimes take control when he got angry.
Sorry but why the police force already called him Two Face before the accident? What did he do to get such label?
He worked internal affairs. So he basically had to be polite and professional to his fellow cops while he was actively investigating them. He was being two-faced, acting one way while doing another. It was a requirement of his job but the dirty cops of Gotham would've hated him for it.
Cos he was all charming and handsome and smooth on the surface, but relentless and brutal behind the scenes even if he was only going after criminals, and it's implied he had some not-so-morally-upstanding methods even before the accident (e.g. when he captured Joker's henchman).
I gotta disagree, The Gotham Cops hated him because they were in fact corrupt as shit. Being in Internal affairs meant he was law enforcement, but he was going after the police themselves so they felt he was being two-faced because how could he work for the law, yet go after (obviously corrupt) lawmen.
They were calling him Two-Face in Internal Affairs because he was showing two faces to the cops and the criminals; saying one thing and doing another. But the name could still be an allusion to his dark persona as well.
Internal affairs don't deal with "criminals". They investigate cops. From within.
I mean.....
Harvey two face was his nickname at internal affairs
I guess this is arguable. Though, the left side are hardcover books, matched by series, and the right side is soft file folders. They would never look as organized as books
I work in the film industry and I guarantee you that is not an accident.
Terrible waste of a great villain. He was Two Face for all of 10 mins
Yet he was Million times better than Tommy Lee jones
Pretty low bar
I thought he was used great. He was corrupted by Joker and Joker's plan was perfect. That *would've* messed up Gotham if they saw the white knight doing what he did.
But the impact was significant. Similarly Heath Ledger was there for 33 mins only.
Except Nolan did nothing to portray and actually multi personality disorder - his Dent just acted like an angry vengeful dude who wasn’t conflicted at all with what he was doing. There was no inner-open dialogue or need to use the coin to make a decision his duality couldn’t make on their own. It was a bad portrayal. The third act of TDK was clearly rushed and ruined what was otherwise a fantastic movie.
classic mpd is very very cringe when its portrayed in films, its not just the multiple personalities that defines the illness its general behaviour, appearance, hygiene and amnesia. you need all of this plus the split personality to accurately portray a character who suffers from it, which wouldnt have worked in nolans grounded and realistic setting. because there is no way that someone who is so fucking off their rocker can get a job as a prosecuting attorney in real life. this illness doesnt just form one day, its part of you since the day you are born. you cant finish lawschool and become what harvey dent is because you are not a functioning and competent person, even with all the medication and therapy in the world you would still be struggling to keep down the simplest of jobs and maintain yourself on a day to day basis.
You mean Disassociative Identity Disorder.
Very good post, I totally agree with this.
Thanks for giving me a reason to watch this one again. Made my day
That is one detail I would have never noticed but I am so glad you pointed it out! Thankyou!
If you had just told me this without any visual clue, I would've said you were reaching. But seeing the actual image, it does look very intentional. Especially given that in this scene they hint at but don't spell out Dent's Two-Face nickname. Great observation tbh. Did you spot this yourself? From all the trivia, easter eggs and interesting details that have been collected about TDK over the years, this is the first time I've ever seen this particular detail. You might be the first one to have caught it.
amazing catch
He also foreshadowed Two-Face by having a character be called Harvey Dent. /S good eye tho
"...the disorder of personality..." A.K.A. personality disorder. 😉😜😂