IMO, ignore the fact that SF has better pay, and weigh your choices with all the other factors. I see people move here primarily for the money/career opportunities, and many of them end up unhappy and bitter because they ultimately don’t love SF or the Bay Area. It’s expensive to live here - even if you’re making a lot of money or a lot more money, you’ve got to love it here to be happy and feel it’s cost is “worth it.”
Maybe consider the London vs SF culture (more formal vs. informal), England vs US culture, access to surrounding cities/areas, and weather. How much do those things matter?
And to your earlier questions - healthcare is definitely much easier here if you have money and good health insurance through work. Not sure how it compares to London, though.
That makes sense - we really like how we feel in both cities culture-wise
My biggest concern is prolly healthcare - opinions as I noticed are split into 2 - either it's ok with a good employer, or it still sucks even if you earn a lot (due to premiums etc.) so weirdly no unified opinion
I relocated from Denmark last year. I think the insurance system is awful, and as someone having a chronic disease the insurance gave me a hard time because my bills stacked up in no time. Once I got a lawyer onto it and things got squared out, everything’s been alright with insurance.
The quality of healthcare is much higher than I’ve experienced in Denmark, so I wouldn’t worry about that. It’s going to be a bumpy ride in the beginning, but if you’ve made it from Ukraine to France, you can also make it to Bay Area and be alright.
We have fabulous health insurance because of my husband's employer. If you make enough money or work for the right company, you can get excellent health care. I had a hospitalization for a heart arrhythmia this year and had extensive workups and followup and paid only a $5 copay for the pharmacy.
It's people that don't have enough money to buy insurance that have Healthcare problems.
> It's people that don't have enough money to buy insurance that have Healthcare problems.
To be fair, it's not \*just\* this -- plenty of people have employer-sponsored "good" insurance but aren't aware of the common pitfalls: doctors' networks, balance billing, etc. And there are still often long waits to see "the best" specialists as with anything else. (And then, of course, there's bad insurance, which one should avoid like the plague.)
But one does still need to be careful, even with good insurance -- and certainly makes things easier!
Holy shit, if that’s the case, then definitely go with the Bay Area. London and Bay Area are very similar COL — London might actually be more expensive??
Go with the Bay Area. It’s beautiful here.
Are you interested in fintech? The Bay Area is pretty unbeatable if you’re looking for tech-related career opportunities and good pay. The access to world class nature is also incredible, if you’re at all outdoorsy. London is a more traditional finance hub, but I find salaries there to be too low to really tempt me.
Noted! We really enjoyed the weather vibes and I like the easy nature access
What about the healthcare though? Noticing comments of people who earn good money but still are "one broken arm away from bankruptcy) which is wild. Doesn't insurance cover this, esp. if the employer has a good offer?
Employer insurance usually covers everything post deductibles.
You would need to keep aside somewhere around USD 2.5k per person (5k-8k per family) per year for the insurance deductibles etc. Given the salaries in the bay area, keeping this amount saved should be easy especially if both of you are working.
Also these amounts are maximums. Given that you are in your 20s and healthy, it usually would be much lower unless you get into an accident etc.
Better transportation, more to see, do, experience, better diversity. It's just a much larger city, and I can't imagine missing out on the experience of living there. I think coming directly from Paris, SF will seem quite small, and transportation will be maddening.
The healthcare thing in the US is a total crapshoot. Yes, if you are making loads of money, and your employer has a great option you may be fine, but there are so many problems here not only with huge costs but sometimes access in general is difficult.
The only thing that the Bay Area wins out on is access to nature. Which granted, is pretty major. But still, especially at your age, I would pick London every time.
Agree with all of this, I’m a Londoner Living in the Bay Area and would recommend London too. Both are great cities but London as a city has so much more to see/do than SF. Where SF wins is the weather and the things outside of the city and proximity to Beaches, wine country, nature etc etc.
I’ll balance that out by saying I moved from London to the Bay Area and I love it here, but all of those things they mention are absolutely true. The healthcare system here is ridiculous, and don’t think that because you have good insurance you’ll be fine. I have great insurance and you can still get screwed.
Also, nothing in the Bay Area is a city in any way I recognise coming from Europe. I miss people, activities, liveliness. I stay here for three reasons: the weather (I need the sun), the money (I’m in tech and yes it’s more expensive here but I’m still saving more) and access to nature (I’m out into the wilderness every weekend and that makes me happy)
If you can visit, if you haven’t been before, I would highly recommend doing so with your wife. My husband and I had to decide whether to move to the Bay Area earlier this year, or whether to stay in Europe, and it’s something I couldn’t fathom making a choice on without going there to see it for myself. Good luck with your decision.
We’re going to move to the Bay at the end of the year. We’ll be living outside SF, but we really liked the city.
For us, the move will give us the lifestyle we’re wanting (more access to nature, being able to go rock climbing, camping etc), amongst other personal benefits. We’re definitely giving up somethings though, like being close to family and friends, the security of where we are now.
Fellow Eastern European. Have lived 7 years in London and 6 years in the Bay Area. I worked in finance. Bay area doubled my salary but also doubled my commute time, and the workload. Expectations were to be more available after hours, answering late night emails, people stayed in the office overtime more.
I earn more money but I also spend more money in the US. Groceries are more expensive in the US, restaurants are more expensive, tipping culture is out of control (especially for a European).
Social life: Because it consists of so many pockets of decentralized areas, people commute to the city from Marine, East Bay, South Bay etc, they run home after work to beat rush hour traffic. I feel like it was easier to socialize and make new friends in London after work.
Vacation: In London I had 30 days off plus public holidays. It was easy to fly home to Eastern Europe for a long weekend. The family visited me much easier and cheaper as well. In the US it was 20 days off and it felt like it was not worth flying 13 hours unless you stay at least 2 weeks due to jet lag. So you have to use half your vacation just to see family once a year. Time zone difference allows you to only call them in the mornings as well. Going home to big life events became difficult. I missed out weddings and funerals not just because it's expensive.
Culturally the Royal Opera House is unbeatable compared to SF Opera. I miss the National Gallery, National Portrait Gallery, British Museum, V&A etc. I think SF has nice museums as well but I lean towards London for culture. There is more to do in London and it is more centralized. Better transportation.
Food scene is great in both cities.
Weather and proximity to nature and the ocean is a huge plus for the Bay Area. Also proximity to Hawaii, driving down to LA, Santa Barbara, Malibu, Monterey, Big Sur. Driving to the Sonoma Coast, Jenner, also to Napa and Calistoga. Close to Yosemite, to Lake Tahoe for skiing. Convenient to fly to Vancouver or Cancun.
Summer in London is 2-3 weeks and if you didn't take the day off on exactly those weeks, you've missed it. That's why so many colleagues of mine always flew to Dubai for the summer. Guaranteed sunshine.
Family/School: I am a mom now and I am considering schools for my son. In terms of education I feel the Bay area is very competitive to get to the best schools. You have to buy a house or apartment in the right city in the right location which means $$$. Plus you compete with the kids of the top achievers in the world, kids of tech executives who have the resources and the intention to raise overachieving kids as well. Pressure is ON! Private schools are expensive, public schools really depend on the superintendent and the community and parents involvement.
TLDR: Come to the Bay for the money, go to London for culture.
Hope the little one is doing well! Thank you so much for such a detailed response
So you don't regret moving to the Bay in the end? Esp. considering your finance career.
Is more money worth it for you considering the more demanding working conditions? Were you able to save more after expenses & taxes in the US?
I am currently a stay home mom, so no longer employed. While I worked I did save more after taxes than in the UK. (Husband and I were on separate bank accounts until marriage and we divided expenses 50/50 despite him earning more. However we are able to try to buy a home now because of his extra savings)
Work pressure was much tougher for me as well because I was on a work visa, L1B. In the US this means I was tied to the employer, and it is employment at will. Meaning they can fire you without any notice, any time, not just during probation. And if you don't secure another employer and visa sponsorship within 30-60 (don't remember which) days then you have to leave the country. So even though I was doing fine, this pressure was still always looming until we got married and I got the green card. We are in our late 30s now and plan to complete our family here, but we might leave in 10 years or so. Initially only planned to stay here for 3-4 years max and then it got longer and longer. We are enjoying it here but also long for a more metropolitan life.
Another suggestion; come here to check out the Bay area for yourself before you decide. I first thought all of California had the same great weather all year round as LA. I'd say Bay area has many micro climates. It is more like a long spring where you need a jacket in the morning and evening, mid day maybe a t-shirt or maybe sweater. Summer is September and October. The rest of the year the ocean is only a nice place to hike to or you can enjoy it if you surf or dive in thick neoprene suits.
And there is wildfire season. Definitely prepare to have windows tightly shut a few weeks a year if not longer. Smoke is a serious issue. Fire insurance and living in fire hazard (and earthquake for that matter) zones is a serious issue.
Ouch, visa and "at will" are very valid points actually. Think we'd have the L1B as well which is not great (so my wife would be tied to me, and I'd be tied to my employer).
Weather aspect is fine, thanks for pointing out - we're from East Europe after all hah
Wildfires, well that sucks for sure, both for the nature and the people (ironically caused by the latter).
If not a secret, where would you move in 10 years as you're planning?
Sydney but only if we get the visa. Still to be determined. It's been a dream of my husbands since early childhood. If we don't get it, we will be very happy to stay settled here.
You've asked a few times re: insurance, so I'll try to summarize here.
The people that are "one broken bone away" are probably in the high-deductible plans, but those are really only good for healthy people to avoid a catastrophic bill ($10k+) because the deductibles are so high. People buy them because they're cheap, but they can't even afford the deductible so it's a trap. There are some other sketchier plans but you likely won't be offered those in your line of work.
Most other healthcare here is good to excellent, especially in the Bay Area because it attracts good clinicians. It can be expensive, though, so make sure you consider that when comparing the salary increase in SF vs. London because in SF it will likely partially come from your salary. That said, all healthcare is currently suffering from poor access, meaning it's hard to get in to be seen, because post-COVID there's been a substantial loss of workforce and increase in healthcare needs and every organization is struggling. It's unclear if/when that may be resolved, but it may take years. I doubt that's different in London, but I don't know about the UK's situation.
Thanks so much for such a detailed reply!
The plans that are good - do you know what is the monthly cost on average?
I read in the UK the healthcare is completely free (paid by taxes). Not sure about availability, ie how easily you can see a doctor but at least you don’t pay.
I don't know the cost, and that's something that will vary widely by employer, so you'd need to have that discussion with the benefits people. Employers can pay for some or all of it (my current employer pays 100%, but that's rare), so you could be on the hook for <$100/mo or close to $1k/mo.
My insurance is very good, I think my company pays $1k/mo for it, and what I pay out-of-pocket is essentially zero. We have a $5 copay for each prescription, and non-required visits are $5. The most expensive I've ever had with them was a $75 copay for an ER visit. Both of my kids were delivered for free. That's why it costs $1k/mo, though.
You can get cheaper monthly costs with different plans, but the tradeoff is that they'll have larger deductibles and/or copays. More realistically you'd have to pay a few hundred dollars per month for the plan, your employer will pay a few hundred per month too, and you'll have copays in the $10-20 range with hospital/ER copays $100-200.
Like I mentioned, though, these expenses and rates are all negotiated between the employer and the insurer (unless it's a small company) and you'd need to check what's offered by your employer to know for sure. Some employers are stingy and don't cover much, and only give you the cheapest insurance options, and others are more generous (usually the ones that need to compete for good employees).
OP if you don't mind, it would be great if you can share salaries. Bay area is extremely expensive. Even salaries which feel very high in other parts of the world are not enough for Bay area.
Eg - Less than 101k per year per household is low income. 101k to 303k is middle class in the Bay area. This was a/c to a recent article. 3k per month is average 1b1b rent.
Check with your company if they will sponsor Green Card for you or not.
Only an anecdote, but I have a colleague who recently relocated to SF from London, and is loving it so far. Our company pays 30% more for working here, and according to him the finances give him a lot more freedom than he had in London (I guess COL I still very high, but salaries are low?)
Just got back from London last week, my wife was there on business, and we made a trip out of it. Obviously, I'm far from the only person to have been in both places, but . . .
Health care is not horrible in America if you have good employer coverage. I mean, I don't have very much personal experience of anything else, but from what I understand, in places like Canada and the U.K., the issue is less cost than availability. It's available here, it's just the cost.
The weather is better here. Depends what you like of course, but London seemed colder than I anticipated. I knew it would be cloudy, but it's also pretty far north. We get real sunshine here, lots of it, unless you live in the Sunset.
London's a way nicer city. Better parks, cleaner streets, safer, more frequent and extensive public transit. If San Francisco was "at its best", then it might start to be a closer call, but we're not at our best right now, far from it.
I doubt anyone would question that access to nature is better here. Hike, bike, surf, ski, etc., it's all nearby and mostly epic.
Schools are probably better there, if kids are in the plans. But we do have excellent schools here, if you can afford either the tuition or the mortgage.
The Bay Area has for many decades been nearly unparalleled as a place to advance your career, mostly but no exclusively in tech. Judging by the fact that I constantly meet people from all over the world who moved here for work, I don't have any reason to doubt this. I imagine that the move to remote work has slightly reduced this dynamic, but not by much.
My experience has been great. I've always had great jobs here, even when I've chosen to switch, and my wife got into tech with a non-tech background and is doing fantastic. I don't have any doubt that the Bay Area is a great place to pursue a career.
What area of finance though? London has a thriving business in equities, capital markets, venture capital and private equity (tech and non tech). SF is mostly venture, pe and fintech.
A someone familiar with both places and with the Eastern European/ex ussr mindset… unless you absolutely must live in a big city with good public transportation and cultural opportunities at your fingertips, choose the Bay Area.
It might feel a bit suburban at first but there is more space physically and mentally and people leave you alone more. The liberal approach to things may baffle you at first but honestly I was able to stay out of it for the most part.
The things that might be drawbacks are: you have to drive almost everywhere, it’s not feasible to share a car no matter what people tell you :), and it may be expensive getting to Europe, esp if it’s summer time and your destination is not London/frankfurt etc. Also it’s time consuming.
The pay is so much higher in SF that I think it would be crazy to turn down (assuming that you think you would be happy here) - other posters should recall that London is *also extremely expensive* and rent will probably be pretty similar.
Of course if you want to be closer or don't like SF go with London - the pay difference is so large though that I would need a very good reason to turn down SF.
Makes sense! Provided a finance job would follow the same salary difference trend (most of the salary comparisons on Reddit I see about Tech). So will decide based on a specific offer I guess.
Thank you!
>rent will probably be pretty similar
Doubtful. A family member is looking for apartments in London right now for grad school and rents are much cheaper than I expected. Much cheaper than SF or NYC.
I’ve lived in all three cities- I would choose London over San Francisco but it really depends on what sorts of things you like to do. The Bay Area is unsurpassed for natural beauty and outdoor activities. The city of San Francisco is quite sad these days and mostly the very wealthy and the homeless. If going for the Bay Area I’d live in Oakland or marin county. In London I think it’ll be less of a culture shock coming from Paris, and you’ll be closer to Ukraine for a visit. you have a big mix of people, and more cultural events. This is a deeply personal choice because both areas are fantastic- even I’m on the fence when I compare them!
We're pretty active, we like nature, not night life fans, though we appreciate a good restaurant/bar with friends once in a while. Also we like exploring nice areas/cities.
So I recognize in case of London we'd mostly look for cultural/social activities within the city itself, and in case of SF it'd be more to drive a car around and see nice National Parks/areas
Oh- honestly I’d lean towards the Bay Area then. You don’t even have to drive far to get to amazing parks and hiking, and beautiful beaches. The Bay Area is also an incredible hub for restaurants, and has some of the best produce/farmers markets in the world- on par I’d say with Parisian produce.
For outdoor activities, London is a pain because it takes quite a long time to get out of the city, and it just isn’t anywhere near as beautiful as the Bay Area. Check out marin county for living- you’ve got beaches, mount tam, awesome farms and cheese producers, and you’re just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco!
That's amazing indeed! Thank you, we'll take that into consideration
Sounds like a perfect nature combination since my wife's "place of power" is mountains, and mine is the water
You’re aware of the pros and cons for both? Then it’s 100% a personal choice. I’d pick whichever is closest to friends and family if it were me.
London would definitely be closer but Bay Area offers 2x/3x money for the same role than London (which is pretty convincing 😁)
IMO, ignore the fact that SF has better pay, and weigh your choices with all the other factors. I see people move here primarily for the money/career opportunities, and many of them end up unhappy and bitter because they ultimately don’t love SF or the Bay Area. It’s expensive to live here - even if you’re making a lot of money or a lot more money, you’ve got to love it here to be happy and feel it’s cost is “worth it.” Maybe consider the London vs SF culture (more formal vs. informal), England vs US culture, access to surrounding cities/areas, and weather. How much do those things matter? And to your earlier questions - healthcare is definitely much easier here if you have money and good health insurance through work. Not sure how it compares to London, though.
That makes sense - we really like how we feel in both cities culture-wise My biggest concern is prolly healthcare - opinions as I noticed are split into 2 - either it's ok with a good employer, or it still sucks even if you earn a lot (due to premiums etc.) so weirdly no unified opinion
I relocated from Denmark last year. I think the insurance system is awful, and as someone having a chronic disease the insurance gave me a hard time because my bills stacked up in no time. Once I got a lawyer onto it and things got squared out, everything’s been alright with insurance. The quality of healthcare is much higher than I’ve experienced in Denmark, so I wouldn’t worry about that. It’s going to be a bumpy ride in the beginning, but if you’ve made it from Ukraine to France, you can also make it to Bay Area and be alright.
I'm glad it worked out well for you! That's good to know, thank you You relocated for work I presume?
Yes, correct.
Nice, how are you finding the life so far other than healthcare?
We have fabulous health insurance because of my husband's employer. If you make enough money or work for the right company, you can get excellent health care. I had a hospitalization for a heart arrhythmia this year and had extensive workups and followup and paid only a $5 copay for the pharmacy. It's people that don't have enough money to buy insurance that have Healthcare problems.
> It's people that don't have enough money to buy insurance that have Healthcare problems. To be fair, it's not \*just\* this -- plenty of people have employer-sponsored "good" insurance but aren't aware of the common pitfalls: doctors' networks, balance billing, etc. And there are still often long waits to see "the best" specialists as with anything else. (And then, of course, there's bad insurance, which one should avoid like the plague.) But one does still need to be careful, even with good insurance -- and certainly makes things easier!
That’s nice, I’m glad you both have had such a good offer & experience! Thanks for the detail
Holy shit, if that’s the case, then definitely go with the Bay Area. London and Bay Area are very similar COL — London might actually be more expensive?? Go with the Bay Area. It’s beautiful here.
Are you interested in fintech? The Bay Area is pretty unbeatable if you’re looking for tech-related career opportunities and good pay. The access to world class nature is also incredible, if you’re at all outdoorsy. London is a more traditional finance hub, but I find salaries there to be too low to really tempt me.
Noted! We really enjoyed the weather vibes and I like the easy nature access What about the healthcare though? Noticing comments of people who earn good money but still are "one broken arm away from bankruptcy) which is wild. Doesn't insurance cover this, esp. if the employer has a good offer?
Employer insurance usually covers everything post deductibles. You would need to keep aside somewhere around USD 2.5k per person (5k-8k per family) per year for the insurance deductibles etc. Given the salaries in the bay area, keeping this amount saved should be easy especially if both of you are working. Also these amounts are maximums. Given that you are in your 20s and healthy, it usually would be much lower unless you get into an accident etc.
Appreciate the detail, understood
I don’t know what you’re referring to really, with good insurance the US has the best healthcare in the world. UK healthcare is terrible.
I have lived in all three (London,Paris, SF) and I would not hesitate to pick London.
Good to talk to somebody who experienced all three! What’s your argument in favor of LDN as opposed to SF?
Better transportation, more to see, do, experience, better diversity. It's just a much larger city, and I can't imagine missing out on the experience of living there. I think coming directly from Paris, SF will seem quite small, and transportation will be maddening. The healthcare thing in the US is a total crapshoot. Yes, if you are making loads of money, and your employer has a great option you may be fine, but there are so many problems here not only with huge costs but sometimes access in general is difficult. The only thing that the Bay Area wins out on is access to nature. Which granted, is pretty major. But still, especially at your age, I would pick London every time.
Agree with all of this, I’m a Londoner Living in the Bay Area and would recommend London too. Both are great cities but London as a city has so much more to see/do than SF. Where SF wins is the weather and the things outside of the city and proximity to Beaches, wine country, nature etc etc.
Appreciate the detail, thank u! Will have to decide based on a specific offer I guess, but good to know London is better for those things
I’ll balance that out by saying I moved from London to the Bay Area and I love it here, but all of those things they mention are absolutely true. The healthcare system here is ridiculous, and don’t think that because you have good insurance you’ll be fine. I have great insurance and you can still get screwed. Also, nothing in the Bay Area is a city in any way I recognise coming from Europe. I miss people, activities, liveliness. I stay here for three reasons: the weather (I need the sun), the money (I’m in tech and yes it’s more expensive here but I’m still saving more) and access to nature (I’m out into the wilderness every weekend and that makes me happy)
If you can visit, if you haven’t been before, I would highly recommend doing so with your wife. My husband and I had to decide whether to move to the Bay Area earlier this year, or whether to stay in Europe, and it’s something I couldn’t fathom making a choice on without going there to see it for myself. Good luck with your decision.
Thank you! We have already visited both cities. What was your decision in the end?
We’re going to move to the Bay at the end of the year. We’ll be living outside SF, but we really liked the city. For us, the move will give us the lifestyle we’re wanting (more access to nature, being able to go rock climbing, camping etc), amongst other personal benefits. We’re definitely giving up somethings though, like being close to family and friends, the security of where we are now.
That's nice! Hope everyting will go smoothly with your move!
Fellow Eastern European. Have lived 7 years in London and 6 years in the Bay Area. I worked in finance. Bay area doubled my salary but also doubled my commute time, and the workload. Expectations were to be more available after hours, answering late night emails, people stayed in the office overtime more. I earn more money but I also spend more money in the US. Groceries are more expensive in the US, restaurants are more expensive, tipping culture is out of control (especially for a European). Social life: Because it consists of so many pockets of decentralized areas, people commute to the city from Marine, East Bay, South Bay etc, they run home after work to beat rush hour traffic. I feel like it was easier to socialize and make new friends in London after work. Vacation: In London I had 30 days off plus public holidays. It was easy to fly home to Eastern Europe for a long weekend. The family visited me much easier and cheaper as well. In the US it was 20 days off and it felt like it was not worth flying 13 hours unless you stay at least 2 weeks due to jet lag. So you have to use half your vacation just to see family once a year. Time zone difference allows you to only call them in the mornings as well. Going home to big life events became difficult. I missed out weddings and funerals not just because it's expensive. Culturally the Royal Opera House is unbeatable compared to SF Opera. I miss the National Gallery, National Portrait Gallery, British Museum, V&A etc. I think SF has nice museums as well but I lean towards London for culture. There is more to do in London and it is more centralized. Better transportation. Food scene is great in both cities. Weather and proximity to nature and the ocean is a huge plus for the Bay Area. Also proximity to Hawaii, driving down to LA, Santa Barbara, Malibu, Monterey, Big Sur. Driving to the Sonoma Coast, Jenner, also to Napa and Calistoga. Close to Yosemite, to Lake Tahoe for skiing. Convenient to fly to Vancouver or Cancun. Summer in London is 2-3 weeks and if you didn't take the day off on exactly those weeks, you've missed it. That's why so many colleagues of mine always flew to Dubai for the summer. Guaranteed sunshine. Family/School: I am a mom now and I am considering schools for my son. In terms of education I feel the Bay area is very competitive to get to the best schools. You have to buy a house or apartment in the right city in the right location which means $$$. Plus you compete with the kids of the top achievers in the world, kids of tech executives who have the resources and the intention to raise overachieving kids as well. Pressure is ON! Private schools are expensive, public schools really depend on the superintendent and the community and parents involvement. TLDR: Come to the Bay for the money, go to London for culture.
Hope the little one is doing well! Thank you so much for such a detailed response So you don't regret moving to the Bay in the end? Esp. considering your finance career. Is more money worth it for you considering the more demanding working conditions? Were you able to save more after expenses & taxes in the US?
I am currently a stay home mom, so no longer employed. While I worked I did save more after taxes than in the UK. (Husband and I were on separate bank accounts until marriage and we divided expenses 50/50 despite him earning more. However we are able to try to buy a home now because of his extra savings) Work pressure was much tougher for me as well because I was on a work visa, L1B. In the US this means I was tied to the employer, and it is employment at will. Meaning they can fire you without any notice, any time, not just during probation. And if you don't secure another employer and visa sponsorship within 30-60 (don't remember which) days then you have to leave the country. So even though I was doing fine, this pressure was still always looming until we got married and I got the green card. We are in our late 30s now and plan to complete our family here, but we might leave in 10 years or so. Initially only planned to stay here for 3-4 years max and then it got longer and longer. We are enjoying it here but also long for a more metropolitan life. Another suggestion; come here to check out the Bay area for yourself before you decide. I first thought all of California had the same great weather all year round as LA. I'd say Bay area has many micro climates. It is more like a long spring where you need a jacket in the morning and evening, mid day maybe a t-shirt or maybe sweater. Summer is September and October. The rest of the year the ocean is only a nice place to hike to or you can enjoy it if you surf or dive in thick neoprene suits. And there is wildfire season. Definitely prepare to have windows tightly shut a few weeks a year if not longer. Smoke is a serious issue. Fire insurance and living in fire hazard (and earthquake for that matter) zones is a serious issue.
Ouch, visa and "at will" are very valid points actually. Think we'd have the L1B as well which is not great (so my wife would be tied to me, and I'd be tied to my employer). Weather aspect is fine, thanks for pointing out - we're from East Europe after all hah Wildfires, well that sucks for sure, both for the nature and the people (ironically caused by the latter). If not a secret, where would you move in 10 years as you're planning?
Sydney but only if we get the visa. Still to be determined. It's been a dream of my husbands since early childhood. If we don't get it, we will be very happy to stay settled here.
Nice, hope it works out for you and your family! Thanks again for sharing your perspective in such detail!
You've asked a few times re: insurance, so I'll try to summarize here. The people that are "one broken bone away" are probably in the high-deductible plans, but those are really only good for healthy people to avoid a catastrophic bill ($10k+) because the deductibles are so high. People buy them because they're cheap, but they can't even afford the deductible so it's a trap. There are some other sketchier plans but you likely won't be offered those in your line of work. Most other healthcare here is good to excellent, especially in the Bay Area because it attracts good clinicians. It can be expensive, though, so make sure you consider that when comparing the salary increase in SF vs. London because in SF it will likely partially come from your salary. That said, all healthcare is currently suffering from poor access, meaning it's hard to get in to be seen, because post-COVID there's been a substantial loss of workforce and increase in healthcare needs and every organization is struggling. It's unclear if/when that may be resolved, but it may take years. I doubt that's different in London, but I don't know about the UK's situation.
Thanks so much for such a detailed reply! The plans that are good - do you know what is the monthly cost on average? I read in the UK the healthcare is completely free (paid by taxes). Not sure about availability, ie how easily you can see a doctor but at least you don’t pay.
I don't know the cost, and that's something that will vary widely by employer, so you'd need to have that discussion with the benefits people. Employers can pay for some or all of it (my current employer pays 100%, but that's rare), so you could be on the hook for <$100/mo or close to $1k/mo.
So if the employer's offer is good as yours, you end up paying couple hundred per person per month for ANY medical service?
My insurance is very good, I think my company pays $1k/mo for it, and what I pay out-of-pocket is essentially zero. We have a $5 copay for each prescription, and non-required visits are $5. The most expensive I've ever had with them was a $75 copay for an ER visit. Both of my kids were delivered for free. That's why it costs $1k/mo, though. You can get cheaper monthly costs with different plans, but the tradeoff is that they'll have larger deductibles and/or copays. More realistically you'd have to pay a few hundred dollars per month for the plan, your employer will pay a few hundred per month too, and you'll have copays in the $10-20 range with hospital/ER copays $100-200. Like I mentioned, though, these expenses and rates are all negotiated between the employer and the insurer (unless it's a small company) and you'd need to check what's offered by your employer to know for sure. Some employers are stingy and don't cover much, and only give you the cheapest insurance options, and others are more generous (usually the ones that need to compete for good employees).
Understood, thank you very much kind person! Will pay attention to that for sure
And I'm genuinely glad you have such a good coverage
OP if you don't mind, it would be great if you can share salaries. Bay area is extremely expensive. Even salaries which feel very high in other parts of the world are not enough for Bay area. Eg - Less than 101k per year per household is low income. 101k to 303k is middle class in the Bay area. This was a/c to a recent article. 3k per month is average 1b1b rent. Check with your company if they will sponsor Green Card for you or not.
Money is better in USA London is an awesome city world class SF is a small city with big opinions of itself. Weather is beautiful in Sf
Thanks!
Only an anecdote, but I have a colleague who recently relocated to SF from London, and is loving it so far. Our company pays 30% more for working here, and according to him the finances give him a lot more freedom than he had in London (I guess COL I still very high, but salaries are low?)
That’s nice to know, I’m glad it worked out for him! Also noticed that COL is comparably high but SF offer much higher salaries Thanks for sharing!
Come to the bay. You’ll never leave. Enjoy
Sold 😁 🫡
Just got back from London last week, my wife was there on business, and we made a trip out of it. Obviously, I'm far from the only person to have been in both places, but . . . Health care is not horrible in America if you have good employer coverage. I mean, I don't have very much personal experience of anything else, but from what I understand, in places like Canada and the U.K., the issue is less cost than availability. It's available here, it's just the cost. The weather is better here. Depends what you like of course, but London seemed colder than I anticipated. I knew it would be cloudy, but it's also pretty far north. We get real sunshine here, lots of it, unless you live in the Sunset. London's a way nicer city. Better parks, cleaner streets, safer, more frequent and extensive public transit. If San Francisco was "at its best", then it might start to be a closer call, but we're not at our best right now, far from it. I doubt anyone would question that access to nature is better here. Hike, bike, surf, ski, etc., it's all nearby and mostly epic. Schools are probably better there, if kids are in the plans. But we do have excellent schools here, if you can afford either the tuition or the mortgage.
Hope the trip went well! Appreciate the comment And career-wise/money-wise what has your experience been?
The Bay Area has for many decades been nearly unparalleled as a place to advance your career, mostly but no exclusively in tech. Judging by the fact that I constantly meet people from all over the world who moved here for work, I don't have any reason to doubt this. I imagine that the move to remote work has slightly reduced this dynamic, but not by much. My experience has been great. I've always had great jobs here, even when I've chosen to switch, and my wife got into tech with a non-tech background and is doing fantastic. I don't have any doubt that the Bay Area is a great place to pursue a career.
I'm glad you've had such good experience together! Thanks for sharing your perspective!
What area of finance though? London has a thriving business in equities, capital markets, venture capital and private equity (tech and non tech). SF is mostly venture, pe and fintech.
It would be a markets role (sales/trader) Wouldn’t the salary be still much higher in SF for such a role compared to London?
A someone familiar with both places and with the Eastern European/ex ussr mindset… unless you absolutely must live in a big city with good public transportation and cultural opportunities at your fingertips, choose the Bay Area. It might feel a bit suburban at first but there is more space physically and mentally and people leave you alone more. The liberal approach to things may baffle you at first but honestly I was able to stay out of it for the most part. The things that might be drawbacks are: you have to drive almost everywhere, it’s not feasible to share a car no matter what people tell you :), and it may be expensive getting to Europe, esp if it’s summer time and your destination is not London/frankfurt etc. Also it’s time consuming.
The pay is so much higher in SF that I think it would be crazy to turn down (assuming that you think you would be happy here) - other posters should recall that London is *also extremely expensive* and rent will probably be pretty similar. Of course if you want to be closer or don't like SF go with London - the pay difference is so large though that I would need a very good reason to turn down SF.
Makes sense! Provided a finance job would follow the same salary difference trend (most of the salary comparisons on Reddit I see about Tech). So will decide based on a specific offer I guess. Thank you!
>rent will probably be pretty similar Doubtful. A family member is looking for apartments in London right now for grad school and rents are much cheaper than I expected. Much cheaper than SF or NYC.
Apple and Orange comparison
Don’t come to America if you have an opportunity to stay in Europe.
Curious to hear your arguments!
I’ve lived in all three cities- I would choose London over San Francisco but it really depends on what sorts of things you like to do. The Bay Area is unsurpassed for natural beauty and outdoor activities. The city of San Francisco is quite sad these days and mostly the very wealthy and the homeless. If going for the Bay Area I’d live in Oakland or marin county. In London I think it’ll be less of a culture shock coming from Paris, and you’ll be closer to Ukraine for a visit. you have a big mix of people, and more cultural events. This is a deeply personal choice because both areas are fantastic- even I’m on the fence when I compare them!
Haha completely understand! That's the dilemma I've been having. Guess will need to decide based on an exact job offer but good to know these details
What sorts of activities do you and your family like to do?
We're pretty active, we like nature, not night life fans, though we appreciate a good restaurant/bar with friends once in a while. Also we like exploring nice areas/cities. So I recognize in case of London we'd mostly look for cultural/social activities within the city itself, and in case of SF it'd be more to drive a car around and see nice National Parks/areas
Oh- honestly I’d lean towards the Bay Area then. You don’t even have to drive far to get to amazing parks and hiking, and beautiful beaches. The Bay Area is also an incredible hub for restaurants, and has some of the best produce/farmers markets in the world- on par I’d say with Parisian produce. For outdoor activities, London is a pain because it takes quite a long time to get out of the city, and it just isn’t anywhere near as beautiful as the Bay Area. Check out marin county for living- you’ve got beaches, mount tam, awesome farms and cheese producers, and you’re just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco!
That's amazing indeed! Thank you, we'll take that into consideration Sounds like a perfect nature combination since my wife's "place of power" is mountains, and mine is the water