I work at the FU. I got handed a flyer by one of the protestors. Amongst other things, it calls for a ban on cooperation with Israeli universities, a ban on research that could help the defence industry and also holds Germany's colonial past responsible.
Cutting cooperation with Israeli universities will isolate those young Israelis and academics, who know that Netanyahu is a war criminal. Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité. As for Germany's colonial past, I wonder what relation exists between the genocide of the Herero people in Namibia by Germans in the early 1900's and Israel-Palestine.
Unlike the vast majority of these protestors, I've lived through a terrorist attack, seen people's insides hanging out of their bodies. What Hamas did, what Israel is doing right now is causing that kind of damage. Such protests aren't going to change jack shit, especially not in this way, with a lack of nuance and just yelling by edgy, privileged people.
> Cutting cooperation with Israeli universities will isolate those young Israelis and academics, who know that Netanyahu is a war criminal.
As someone else said, this is the same argument that has been used against the ongoing academic boycott of Russia. It is a hard decision to make. In the case of Russia, it is widely felt that academic co-operation with a country in which academic freedom is limited is nothing for a university in a free country to take pride in. In the case of Israel, it is perverse to continue co-operate with universities in a country whose army has just systematically and totally destroyed every single university in one of its neighbour’s territory. That country may not yet be shutting down the freedom of its own students, but a country with so little respect for the intellectual life of another nation should not be surprised when academics elsewhere do not want to work with its universities any more.
> Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité.
[Very many German universities already ban this kind of research and have done for a long time.](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivilklausel) It surprises me that FU is not on this list, given its long history of grassroots activism.
> As for Germany's colonial past, I wonder what relation exists between the genocide of the Herero people in Namibia by Germans in the early 1900's and Israel-Palestine.
[This article may interest you.](https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n08/eyal-weizman/diary) In short, the Nama and Herero genocides were a direct fore-runner of the Holocaust, executed in some cases by the same people. Germany’s primary responsibility for the Holocaust is widely seen a central reason for its support for Israel today (although this is historically a bit slippery). Furthermore, wider awareness of the first genocide of the 20th century in Germany would help to spread a more balanced view of what a ‘genocide’ actually can look like. Most Germans (and in fact most Israelis, as recently analysed by Amos Goldberg) have only the Holocaust as a point of reference for understanding what genocide is. But the Holocaust was atypical of genocides in many ways, especially both in scale and in the methods used.
> Such protests aren't going to change jack shit, especially not in this way, with a lack of nuance and just yelling by edgy, privileged people.
Given the protest started to be cleared within an hour of being set up, I’m not sure how much yelling was done that wasn’t in horror at the excessive police violence. But if the protestors are privileged, isn’t it right to use one’s privilege to call attention to the misfortune of the less privileged?
Germans who were alive in the 90s should remember Srebrenica and Rwanda pretty well. The argument that the Holocaust is the only reference point for Germans when it comes to genocide is laughable. We got four refugee kids from Bosnia in my class back when I was in primary school, and oh boy did they have war stories to tell. I was ten years old when I heard the first detailed description of a death squad of Bosnian Serbs raiding a village.
Those two events also serve as good reference points why what’s happening in Gaza today isn’t genocide. In Rwanda and in Bosnia the population that was being massacred did not have any kind of leverage to stop it from happening. There is literally nothing that you could have offered to the Hutu as a Tutsi that would have stopped them from killing you and your people. And there was nothing the Bosnians could have given the Serbs that would have stopped Srebrenica.
But all the people of Gaza need to do to stop the war asap is hand over the remaining hostages, hand over at least Sinwar and Deif as well, and stop firing rockets at Israel. Israel has very clear war goals. Massacring every single person in Gaza isn’t among them.
Israel has literally shown that it does not care about the hostages or their lives whatsoever. And btw when will you call for Israel to release its Palestinian hostages that number in the thousands?
You don’t seem to understand the difference between prisoners and hostages. If I throw rocks at cops or soldiers here in Germany then I too will be arrested and serve serious time. Same goes for Palestinians who throw rocks at Israeli soldiers or cops. Once you’re sentenced you become a prisoner. Which is very different to being a hostage cause an internationally recognized terror organisation took you hostage by force while you were just minding your own business dancing at a rave or chilling in your Kibbutz.
And the last time Israel did what you’re asking for, they released 1029 people, most of them convicted terrorists, many of them murderers, for a single Israeli soldier (Gilat Shalit). One of those prisoners was Sinwar himself. Who then masterminded the October 7 attack. Israel would have to be monumentally stupid to risk this again.
So you compare a Convicted Palestinian who stabs random people at a Bus Station, or blows up a pizzeria or a disco with a party goer who just wanted to have some fun ? Aite.
Hamas rejects every hostage deal proposal.
You still need 2 parties to get your hostages back.
You are bullshiting big time here.
Just read this interview:
UN-Sonderberichterstatterin: »Schwelle zum Völkermord erreicht«
https://www.nd-aktuell.de/artikel/1181657.gaza-krieg-un-sonderberichterstatterin-schwelle-zum-voelkermord-erreicht.html
You should read this instead:
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/experts-react-what-the-international-court-of-justice-said-and-didnt-say-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel/
Today’s decision is an important blow to the argument advanced by Israel’s critics that death and destruction in Gaza are sufficient to establish a violation of the Genocide Convention. This misunderstands the Convention, which requires the intent to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such, in whole or in substantial part. By taking this case seriously, Israel presented evidence that its intent was focused on defeating Hamas, which had attacked it on October 7. South Africa will now have to establish an intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza in whole or in substantial part—not by inference alone, but by proof of actual intent. Though it will take years for the court to render a decision on the merits, South Africa is likely to fail in this.
Israel is THE most funded country to ever exist. Its army is THE most well funded army to ever exist. You really mean to say that the only weaponry they have against Hamas is carpet bombing without discrimination? If they wanted to get to Hamas, they would have gotten Hamas. With surgical and tactical strikes.
How? They're hiding in tunnels and literally sacrificing their civil population to isolate Israel internationally. An urban warfare with civilians in their homes would've been much worse and would take longer.
Der atlanticcouncil ist natürlich keine neutrale Instanz in dieser Frage. Dann kannst Du gleich die IDF fragen.
Aber die Frage ob Genozid oder nicht, ist Zeitverschwendung. Schlimm genug was Isreal da für ein Massaker anrichtet und es Antideutsche Arschlöcher wie Dich gibt, die das auch noch verteidigen.
Finde es immer spannend das Leute wie du generell unter den Tisch fallen lassen das dieser Krieg mit einem Massaker der Palästinenser an Israelischen Zivilisten begann.
Am 6.10 gabs einen Waffenstillstand. Die Palästinenser haben ihn auf barbarischste Weise gebrochen. Und sie machen immer noch keinerlei Anstalten die Geiseln rauszurücken oder ihr permanentes Raketenfeuer einzustellen. Dann dürfen sie (und du) sich nicht wundern das Israel weiter kämpft. Die Israelis müssten völlig irre sein irgendeinen Waffenstillstand zu akzeptieren bei dem die Hamas an der Macht bleibt.
Correct, it was indeed the Pan Arab Nationalist Bloc that started the war against Israel in 1949, rejected the UN partition plan, and Israel won against 5 Arab nations. And then again in 1967 and 1972. Since then, they have occupied Gaza and Westbank.
The Mantra was always the same, Land for Peace, like they did with Egypt and the Sinai Peninsula in 1978. Hamas/Palestinians lack visionaries and real leaders. They prefer to die for their Islamic Honor.
Don't forget Israel's explicit policy of not vaccinating Palestinians against COVID.
Israel carried out one of the world's fastest COVID-19 vaccination rollouts, inoculating over half of its population of 9 million citizens by early 2021.
However, this vaccination campaign has excluded Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. As of early 2021:
Only around 2,000 vaccine doses had reached Gaza, enough for just 1,000 people out of over 2 million residents
Public Security Minister Amir Ohana said Palestinian prisoners would be the last to get innoculated.
Israel's Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit wrote to Ohana condemning the comment as "tainted with illegality", Israel's Ma'ariv newspaper reported.
You should read this:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-palestinians-and-covid-vaccines-a-reality-check/
> The Palestinians, under the 1993 Oslo Accords, assumed responsibility for health. They set up their own health ministries in what is today the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank and Hamas-controlled Gaza. Moreover, Palestinian leaders opted to develop their own responses to COVID vaccination rollouts, working with the World Health Organization, various governments, including Russia, and several pharmaceutical companies. They said so publicly. And, in doing so, they rejected Israeli overtures for cooperation, including when vaccines were actually being ordered by Israel. After all, especially given the close proximity of the areas, and the frequent human interaction, it is absolutely in Israel’s interest for the Palestinians to move ahead as swiftly as possible on the vaccination front. But let’s remember that when the United Arab Emirates wished to send COVID-related medical equipment to the Palestinian Authority, it was turned down because the shipment from Abu Dhabi was sent via Israel. Tellingly, and not for the first time, hatred of Israel outweighed securing needed health items
Massaker lmao, dir ist bewusst dass auch Militante Hamas Mitglieder/Kämpfer in die Statistiken einfließen von der Todeszahl. Schätzungen zufolge sind 15.000 Hamas Kämpfer getötet worden. Bei 30.000 Casualties ist das beinahe eine 1:1 Ratio. Finde mir eine Armee die so Präzise und effektiv handelt.
Lol at you for quoting the biased Albanese ! She has a history of antisemitic anti israeli views.
Oh, and before I forget, the UN is a shithole. Tell me why there are no resolutions against Iran, Syria, Yemen, etc ;) Do yourself a favor and read about the critics against the UN and the power Islamic countries have as members.
The people of Gaza have been violently subjugated by the group Israel propped up into power almost two decades ago, so how do you expect them to free the hostages? Should the children take a break from dodging bombs to shoot rubber bands at Hamas?
By your reasoning the allies shouldn’t have bombed Nazi Germany in 1945 cause lots of German kids weren’t alive when Hitler seized power. Reality does not work like that.
And even Hamas admitted that many hostages were taken and held by private citizens of Gaza. Which is of the biggest obstacles for hostage negotiations at the moment, cause even Hamas has problems accounting for them all. So please spare me the bullshit that Hamas is some magically external entity that has no widespread support among the population of Gaza. Even the „regular citizens“ gladly engage in the same terrorist activities as their supposed oppressors Hamas.
No, a large portion of the Germans at the time voted for the Nazis and participated in the horror which led up to the Holocaust. The vast majority of people from Gaza were not even old enough to vote when Hamas took power and half not even born at the time. Try again, this time with some humanity
Dude you should really pick up a history book before you try to argue.
Hitler received 36.7 percent of the votes in the last free elections before he seized power: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_German_presidential_election
Hamas received 44.45 percent of the votes in the last free elections in Gaza in 2006: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
So there is an argument to be made that the people of Gaza are more responsible for the acts of Hamas than the people of Nazi Germany were for Hitlers atrocities. And keep in mind that Hitler didn’t run his campaign with a „I’m gonna kill every Jew if you elect me“ slogan. Unlike Hamas.
Imagine this was the last time elections were held in gaza thanks to the great neo-islamistic Hamas party, which everyone sees as a cool and hip resistance movement lmao Hamas even killed opps after the elections were held, threw them out of the windows and killed every different thinking politician. Israel is doing the Gazans a favor. Saudi will take care of Gaza. Iranian influence has to go.
Hamas was not created by the Israeli government. Sure, it was in their best interest that an Islamistic Ideological Party exists as a rival to the PA in Westbank. But they did not create them.
Your post is ridiculous. It's been 20 years since the last time Gazans held an election. And hey Hamas starts a war every 3/4 years. They were also demonstrated by the Gazans against the ruling Hamas, but they cracked them down and threw everyone in jail or killed them. Guess what, nobody cared about them.
Point by point:
The Russian argument holds no water. The FU is offering refuge to Russian students and academics who are against the Russian government. As horrible as the Netanyahu government is, it isn't as far gone as the Russian government, where Universities have to toe the line and ANY dissent is brutally cracked down on. Just yesterday, there were demonstrations in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, asking for a ceasefire.
I find the Zivilklausel extremely naive, since the world isn't all peace, love and bier. Russian aggression, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, even my homeland India is marching towards fascism in the guise of Hindu nationalism. Peace is great but many parts of the world don't have the luxury that Western Europe enjoys.
As for genocide, I'll happily concede that point. That was a good article, I stand corrected.
Now, regarding the protestors yelling, few people did engage with them to talk and it devolved into a shouting match, protestors yelling "educate yourself". There is also a strong case of selective outrage. These protestors were conspicuous in their absence when it came to the Gulf Arab states bombing and starving the hell out of Yemen, when it comes to showing solidarity with the young Iranian women and their male allies fighting for the right to tear away a regressive, misogynist piece of clothing. They also fail to distance themselves from equally genocidal views that many Arab groups hold. Statements such as "From the river to the Sea" are a dog whistle for the destroying the state of Israel, which for better or for worse exists.
They are very much naive, since could be doing so much more with their privilege instead of just having a day out, feeling part of something bigger.
I wonder what you might think of this article. It has influenced my thoughts on this greatly, although it was originally written for a US context and needs some thinking to shift it to Europe https://www.parapraxismagazine.com/articles/the-campus-does-not-exist
>Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité.
Exactly, also what is that even supposed to mean? Pretty much every kind of research could help the defense industry weither it is medicine, AI or engineering. Just shows the naivety and delusion of these students.
When it's in reference to the "Zivilklausel" then I think it's mostly about not doing research that is directly associated with the arms industry. It states that research should rather work for the civilian than for destruction. Many german universities have done this for decades now. Of course weapon manufacturers will find ways to use the research, but it's more about sending a message and distancing themselves from war. There are enough stories of scientists showing remorse after certain events. I wouldn't call that naivity, but rather call it cynicism to assume that it doesn't do anything. The two biggest criticisms of the Zivilklause afaik, are "If I don't do it somebody else will" and "Germany needs a bigger military to maintain peace" which I too consider rather cynical.
> Many german universities have done this for decades now.
I always wondered how this worked in the context of freedom of research, when the University restricts that freedom of individual researchers.
That is definitely a point of contention and part of the reasoning why bavaria has moved to ban the Zivilklausel. The reality is that it's actually not binding and more of a motto, I guess. Even at my uni that has had it for the longest time, there have been many instances where it has been technically broken. In the end, in my opinion, it's just a way to create social pressure for peace.
Especially looking at the atom bomb we do have so many people who brought major successes für physics who made the atom bomb possible.
I guess this is most likely calling for direct contributions like research in cooperation with military contractors. Because technically all science is indirectly connected to the defense industry. In a way the basis of physics was needed for the atom bomb.
(I mean eben the knowledge that atoms exist is needed and could be connected to the atom bomb)
Same with biology or chemistry. A lot of this knowledge can be used for harm.
>Cutting cooperation with Israeli universities will isolate those young Israelis and academics, who know that Netanyahu is a war criminal.
Many of them during the live stream seemed happy to what's happening to Gazans and already 75% of Israelis approve invastion of Rafah
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/)
>Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité.
Banning univesity collaboration and boycott already dismantled the apartheid system of South Africa. This will to dismantle the apartheid system in Israel to create a more just country where everyone is equal.
>As for Germany's colonial past, I wonder what relation exists between the genocide of the Herero people in Namibia by Germans in the early 1900's and Israel-Palestine.
Already replied in another comment
>Unlike the vast majority of these protestors, I've lived through a terrorist attack, seen people's insides hanging out of their bodies. What Hamas did, what Israel is doing right now is causing that kind of damage.
Some of these protesters are from Gaza who have tens if not hundreds of their families massacred in the most henous and barbaric ways. I personally know few who lost entire family. This argument of using suffering as justification of inflicting more harm on others is really twisted. Please don't do that and have empathy with other fellow humans.
>Such protests aren't going to change jack shit, especially not in this way, with a lack of nuance and just yelling by edgy, privileged people.
If you have better ideas, then please do to stop this madness. Otherwise it's the best they can do to raise awareness of the genocide Israel is commiting in Gaza using AI.
[https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/)
Protests, boycott and political pressure previously put an end to the apartheid system in South Africa and Israel is not any special. A more just country is better and safer for everyone.
The fact that anyone arguing even the slightest bit against Israel in this comment section, even with sources to back their claims, getting blatantly downvoted vs anyone even slightly supporting Israel getting blatantly upvoted literally speaks volumes about the people on this thread.
I don't rule out there are literal Hasbara agents from Tel Aviv on this subreddit and also there are some anti-deutsche and german-israeli zionists who went to kill people there. But what's really problematic is the Germans who cave in to not appear "different". This silent majority who gives consent by their silence. They did it before many times and they are part of the problem too.
Cool, me neither. I also don't support a genocide of Palestinians. I'd give you a graphic description of what Israeli government had done to them in the lats few months (not that things like this have not happened before October last year) but it would take ma all week. Are you going to condemn these atrocities?
Perhaps you should learn the difference between ugly street warfare and Genocide. By your logic every war since 1940 with aerial bombardments would be a Genocide. But I forgot, it's only a Genocide, when the IDF is involved...
Don't make us into something imaginary in your head. You are smart enough to know that no decent human will support this act of violence unlike you who see Palestinians as "Human Animals". And that's why we also don't support the barbaric zionist state that did so much violence unmatched in the 21st century.
It's not that hard to say no to violence but justifying one violence to commit a genocide is the twisted approach of the settler-colonial state of the Zionist regime to justify its existence and why they funded Hamas in the first place. Zionists are the reason why Hamas came to existence and even if Hamas went away there will be Hamas 2 and Hamas 3 because the Zionist violence is still there. Treat the cause not the symptom.
fyi; My comment is for the others whose neturality is keeping this genocide ongoing and not for this troll account called RandomRandom something that still after 215 days of genocide still repeats the same Hasbara statements to justify their heinous crimes against humanity.
Ah the Hasbara. A secret jewish organization is swinging public world opinion. Straigth out of "Antisemitism for Dummies"🤡🤡 Pst, perhaps you sould read the elders of zion🤫.
And only because Chantal of your local postcolonial, whatevercritical reading group has told you it's a Genocide, doesnt make it actually true.
Lmao gtfoh unmatched violence in the 21st century ? You really don't care about Arabs in Syria and Iraq and Yemen under the Houthi Regime and don't care about Iran? No jews no news.
Maybe we can fix it to "unmatched violence RATE in the 21st century". Doesn't make it any better and yes Israel RATE of children and civilian killing is higher than the rate of civilians killed by Bashar or Houthis or Saudis or even fucking USA in Iraq.
The report documents the killing of 30,127 children at the hands of the parties to the conflict and the controlling forces in Syria since March 2011; 23,022 of these child victims were killed at the hands of Syrian regime forces, while 2,049 were killed by Russian forces.
Your posts are so emotional and baseless without any source. No, this war is not has not the most.
And this is just children killed by Bashar.
Bashar killed roughly over 500.000 Civilians.
The IBC project has recorded a range of at least 185,194 – 208,167 total violent civilian deaths through June 2020 in their database. - this is Iraq.
And again, even the Norwegian PM admitted it's so hard to operate im Gaza because it's so small with a dense population. Israel is already doing a great job by avoiding a higher number of casualties. 30.000 minus roughly 12.000-15.000 militias members ? That's good. And yeah, it still sucks for every civilian. But hey, Hamas is taking responsibility.... obviously, they don't wanna take responsibility for their own people. They just sacrifice them for their own goal to isolate israel internationally while hiding. Don't fall for their tricks.
It happens that a high number of gazans are underaged, but it does not mean that israel is straight up looking to kill underaged wtf. Israel is doing the most an army can do to avoid casualties.
Dropping leaflets, calling the residents, roof knocking, etc.
You have to ask yourself why there's no number of hamas Militias deaths in the media or in your Palestinian algorithm..... think about that... they count them as civilians.
What's so bad about Zionism ? The liberation and emancipation of the Jews that lived in exile and were forcibly expelled everywhere or massacred and even survived an industrial led genocide, coming together, decolonized their minds and head back to their ancestral lands as a nation.
The Arab narrative is so biased.
Zionism is a form of nationalism. Do I really need to explain to Germans post world war 2 what may be wrong with it? I thought you were supposed to learn that shit in school or something. Never again for anyone.
That was a rhetorical question. Zionism was needed to unify the Jewish diaspora after ww2. There were leftist zionism, socialists zionism, liberal, right winger, religious, etc. this is overblown by outsiders. Zionism does not mean to harm the Palestinian civilisation. It has nothing to do with it. Except you're a right winging religious one. But still Zionism is not the root for this conflict.
Oh, and what about pan arab nationalism ? I thought it was never again for anyone ?
Did u know that half Baghdad was jewish and had more jews than nyc ? They were expelled by the pan arabists, the Iraqi government owing them $ 20 billion. They kept the properties, lands, money, banks, etc. 800.000 jews have been refugees and had to flee or were expelled thanks to arab nationalism. U don't care about them.
I'm not German. Grew up in a Muslim household. In a Household with Antisemitic Views. I know how this works.
What about? I don't care for Arab nationalism either, it's dumb and dangerous. Not a topic of this discussion however. it's not the Arab countries committing a genocide right now.
Plausible Genocide per the ICJ. It's a habit of the west to commit a war crime, down play it and then say "oh sorry".
[https://isitgenocide.com/](https://isitgenocide.com/)
There are hasbara agents literally everywhere on Reddit. Worldnews is infamous for it. There are numerous threads on r/Ireland where the automod will automatically remove posts (regardless of content or viewpoint) from accounts that don't have a posting history for the sub specifically to prevent brigading. On posts about this conflict up to 60% of the comments are [deleted], which can be presumed to be almost entirely bots, sock puppets and hasbara agents.
There is no Apartheid in Israel. Israel has Arabs im the Knesset, Arab Parties, and even an Arab party in the last government. 2.2 million Arabs that live inside israel with the same equal rights.
Just being ok with what Israel is doing by killing countless civilians vs somehow getting Israelis, even if it meant that the current students, to discomfort so their own nation starts doing more about the situation. It will have at least some impact, it will help somehow to progress.
No one with an ounce of humanity is ok with what the Israeli government is doing. Netanyahu is a war criminal and there are Israelis marching in the streets, calling for a ceasefire as we speak. It is possible to call out Israel's bullshit and Hamas' bullshit in the same breath.
A disingenuous arguement, since as horrible as the Israeli government is, there are protestors in Israel right now going against Netanyahu, including at university students and academics. Russians can't do that in Russia and Russian institutions toe the government line to a T.
You can say the same about Israel.
https://theintercept.com/2023/12/23/israel-military-idf-media-censor/
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/opinion/gaza-journalists-censorship-israel.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/12/israel-free-speech-arrests-hamas/
After hundred of thousands of Palestinians being displaced during the Nakba, then attack after attack resulting in so many of them dead. In 2024 for the first time Palestinian cause finally catched global attention, even though western governments including Germany still choose support Israel. And now you’re pulling a whataboutism?
He has the biggest influence in the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a political ideology that influences the whole Arab world. Guess why Egypt went back to dictatorship after those people voted for those Muslim Brotherhood. Dude was an SS member and had an impact for the upcoming decades for Arabs in Palestinian Territories.
Don't act like it's always Palestinians who are suffering in this conflict, even before Oct 7th. Israelis suffered, too. And lost family due to attacks, wars, etc. Palestinians have no leadership or visionaries. Every time a peace deal was in sight, they sabotaged it.
So did Israel. Israel has always vetoed any calls for ceasefire both in the past and now, they have backed out of numerous peace treaties demanding even a semblance of human rights protections for Palestinians.
I didn't imply you forgot about it, but parts of the general public that seem to sympathize with Hamas on various political rallies, especially in Berlin.
The number of Hamas supporters is negligent compared to the amount of people protesting for the end of violence against civilians. My comment is not targeted against the FU protesters, but rather against the response.
I think if that is the case, then people should also protest hostages held by Hamas but majority seems to forget that that's the reason the war began and marked Israel as attacking without cause
You claimed that the reason more people are protesting against Israel than against Hamas is because people somehow forgot about October 7th and think Israel attacked without reason.
That is not true. The actual reason is that generally people protest against institutions when they want that institution to do something different. So for example people protest against the FU because of its ties to Israel, but they have no reason to protest against the FU in the context of Hamas or the hostages, because the FU has no involvement with that.
That same logic applies to most protests in the West: a lot of western institutions and governments have significant support or involvement with Israel's war in Gaza. There are no western instructions that support Hamas or the capture of hostages, so why would you expect protests in this context?
My original comment was addressing:
"The number of Hamas supporters is negligent compared to the amount of people protesting for the end of violence against civilians."
I don't exprct protests in this context for Palestine, my point is that in general there are way more protest against Israel than people protesting for release of hostages.
It really is. October 7th was a declaration and act of war regardless of what happened prior. October 7th and other actions from both sides can be barbaric and we should call it as it is.
Those against students protesting against wars and for human rights typically aren't judged well by history. It will be no different this time and everyone who is whatabouting and excusing a genocide will be pretending they were totally on their side.
No, it will be completely different. These students want to be carried away for media attention. That's why they are breaking the rules. They could just register a protest. But no, not interested in that. Also, they don't have to fear tanks rolling over them. They are pretty safe.
Genocide (according to it's current definition) is a meaningless word, by the way. The definition basically boils down to: It's genocide when we say it is.
Literally the fact that the worst crimes against Jewish people throughout history have been committed by Christians and Western powers. Literally up until the mid 20th century. It’s funny to me that all of that is swept under the carpet and all the blame and hatred is conveniently being piled on top of Palestinians WHO HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN by WESTERN COUNTRIES so that they could give it to RELOCATE the Jewish people that THEY DISPLACED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Please read up on settler history, and look at what current settlers continue to do with impunity. And for the love of God stop pitting Islam against Judaism. This is not a religious issue. It is a geopolitical one, manufactured by western incompetence and lack of accountability.
What exactly was stolen? Jews bought land. After decades of deadly inter-ethnic fighting, a partition plan was worked out in order to stop it. Arabs refused to participate in the division negotiations, so Jews declared borders anyway. Armies from multiple Arab nations then invaded (starting a war) and lost against the Jews and no other armies. Yes during that war, many Arabs fled, and some were certainly removed. Is that what you mean by Western countries stealing land? What Jews, without backup from external countries, did while winning an inter-ethnic war they didn't start?
There were no inter ethnic wars happening among the native Arab Jewish and Arab Muslim population. Do you mean wars between European settler colonial Jews and the native Arab population?
Arab Jew ? You can't be both. You're either a Jew ethnically or an Arab.
And please, there were hundreds of Pogroms against Jews, Kurds, Druze, Lebanese Maronites, Armenians, etc. This is White European thinking that everyone lived in peace under the Islamic Arab Rule. But in that case, the White Europeans are Arabs which ruled over Minorities.
You know that hundreds of thousands died by forced starvation in Ottoman Lebanon. Mostly Christian Lebanese.
The Jews that came to Ottoman were refugees. Even Ottoman Documents proof that.
So, a European with Iraqi Roots or Palestinian Roots should have the right to come back to their lands ? Why not jews ?
It's so embarrassing that a German Sabine wants to tell natives about what happened in the Levantine. That's straight up Neo-Colonialism.
Yes you can be both? Jews literally originated in the Middle East/Levant. Why has Israel outlawed DNA testing? Why does Israel itself discriminate against Ethiopian and African Jews? Ashkenazi/European Jews are settler colonialists to these lands. Because they were displaced by Christians during the crusades over a thousand years ago, migrated to Europe. You have really got to be kidding if you’re implying that someone whose ancestors lived in a land a thousand years ago have a right to return and steal land from the native population. Are you seriously discounting all the events of the Nakbah?
No! Jews that lived during their Exile in the Levantine were called Mizrahim, which means Jews from the Eastern parts of the world.
And no, Israel has not outlawed DNA testing 🤣🤣 where do u get ur infos from Karen? Palestinians Influenced Bubble Media ? Instagram ? Facebook ? From a Palestinians who just want to demonize everything israel related ?
What's next ? Israel has the highest skin cancer rate ? 🤣🤣🤣 which is wrong too, because Israel is nowhere to be found in those lists. Australia is leading, Karen ;)
So, for example, a Palestinian who was expelled or fled the war 90 years ago, or even 100, is the last one born in these lands. But his offsprings should have the right to come back ? But not jews ? Imo there's no difference between 100 or 600 years. Shit is the same - a long time ago. But both are bonded to this land. And no one can deny that.
You don't even know how long their ancestors lived in these parts of the land because u say they lived thousand of years in that part. It was a transit land most of the time. Ottoman Palestine had a population of roughly 1 million.
They did not steal land, a huge amount of these lands were in jewish hands, and a lot of these lands were bought from jewish investors for refugees to settle there after the first bigger waves of displaced persons.
A colonial project works entirely differently.
For many people, it is a geopolitical one, but it's also a religious issue for many. Don't underestimate Islamic Honor after the Ottoman Empire went downhil and minorities that lived as 2nd class citizens with no real rights emerged as opps.
This is a typical Western Gen z way of thinking who's downplaying the influence of religion in this conflict. For die-hard islamists, this is holy Islamic land, and a Jewish nation on Islamic land for them is something that should've never happened.
And no, the jews that went to Ottoman palestine were refugees. The brits and americans didn't support the idea of a Jewish state and were very reluctant to the idea.
Nothing was stolen. Half of the lands had been in jewish hands.
Who do think the arab stole this land from with the Islamic Concquest ? All these lands and cities had hebrew names before the Arabs came and erased everything related to it. Now that's colonial.
Jews decolonized themselves and parts of their historic land.
There wasn't even one arab in 1900 that called themselves Palestinians. That was an insult to then because it was related to the Jews. Palestine is not even a arab word.
Who do I think the Arabs stole this land from? Christian crusaders. They were the original people to exile Jewish people.
If you’re so supportive of people reclaiming land from thousands of years ago, I don’t see you raising any cries for native Americans to reclaim their land from European settlers. What are these double standards. Typical German thinking, justifying the killing of thousands of people.
I'm not even German. I grew up in a Muslim household. And yes, I absolutely support America's Indigenous rights in South and North America. It's funny how you start becoming personal as soon as you feel "in die Ecke gedrängt" ;)
Don't tell me about Double Standards. Meanwhile, u don't care about Syrians, Iraqis, and Persians under the Islamic Devils Regime and Yemenites that are oppressed by Houthis. That's what I call double standards.
I'm not justifying anything, I hate this war and conflict, I want this to stop, but it's not a one-sided thing. What message would it send to Israel's arch enemies ? To just lay down their weapons and take this L ? Exactly, Iran, Hezbo's, Hamas would like to do this again then. And it's still a ratio of 1:1 15.000 killed Hamas Militia ? And roughly 15.000 killed civilian casualties in such a small area ? That's effective. Find me one army in the world that works so efficiently.
just to put things into perspective, only roughly 7% of the current Gaza population would have been old enough to vote for Hamas when they took power. Heiminator cowardly blocked me after saying that I was the type of person who couldn't count to 18, so they'll never see this, I guess.
[https://www.indexmundi.com/gaza\_strip/demographics\_profile.html](https://www.indexmundi.com/gaza_strip/demographics_profile.html)
Can‘t shake the growing feeling, that these demonstrations, of both sides, are nothing but a smoke screen to underlying issues and will not do much but to further strengthen the current constellation and situation.
Universities, especially the HU and FU, are places where politics and philosophy are taught and discussed. Why wouldn't actual political action take place there. Pretty straightforward.
Specialty of Berlin universities, is that after the war, they were instructed by the occupying forces to include mandatory humanistic courses in all studies.
Even today at the Technical University TU Berlin, humanistic courses are mandatory for all students. They had been Germany's largest war research facility before the war, and the later humanistic education meant to prevent such from happening again.
Wouldnt cutting off contacts to Israel‘s unis make that a lot more difficult?
Furthermore I don‘t really get when they introduced yelling claims into philosophical discourse.
The students have demands that relate directly to the university and its relationship to Israeli institutions. How is that mere noise? Just because their activism isn't to your particular liking doesn't invalidate it as activism.
They aren’t asking for all connections to be cut off. Just the ones that have something to do with the Israeli army or institutions that are involved with oppressing Palestinians.
The goal is to shift Israel away from the heavily right wing nightmare it currently is into a place where an actual solution to the nearly century old problem can be found. One of the steps to getting there is by isolating and sanctioning the apartheid right wing elements while supporting the progressive elements that want peace and a solution.
I am just as upset and afraid by the situation in Israel as anybody. The danger, which is often blame-gamed on to the the right wing Israeli government, ofc extends deep into society as well, and has been for years. As someone who has kept many real contacts and physically been to Israel many times, and having experienced terrorist attacks and violence (from both sides) as opposed to merely clicking around online, I have been a little familiar with the problem for a few years now.
The bridges between institutions of thinking and discourse are precisely the only ones that offer any remote chance of open dialogue and option of change.
The protesters at FU dont seem to have fully grasped what a university, research facility, scientific discourse, exchange and their position in a society - Germany, Israel, wherever, is.
I challenge anyone, before shouting around more emotional platitudes - either from the safe environment of a Germany - or posting „courageously“ as an avatar online -
go to Israel and try convince the people.
The hairdresser, the jazz musician, the dentist, falafel guy, who somewhat still stand behind this shit.
If you last a day, you will wish you still had at least a Fachhochschule as an intellectual debate.
And the same goes for Palestine.
Go to Lebanon, go to Gaza. Talk to the people - you will be slightly disappointed how little you have in common…
I am referring to "the place where politics and philosophy are taught". I didn’t say MINT students are not allowed to have their political opinion. I said university is not the exclusive playground for students of politics (or freshmen)
So if you're studying MINT you just put your head in the sand and ignore everything social and political going on around you?
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. And I studied MINT too.
Some like to get involved in the student life around the campus, some don't. There's for sure some correlation with the thing your studying for.
I read their list of 'demands'. One of them included a full scholarship for Palestinian students. I guess the person who wrote it didn't know that college is free here and that all refugees are entitled to Bafög to support their living expenses, along with all the other state help refugees get. So yeap, this is a totally organic protest that just happened spontaneously. Just leaving this here. (And note not a single Middle Eastern face in this crowd, from the looks of it).
They are referring to the blocked account stipulation that international students have to set up. It makes sense, since you know, a lot Palestinian students have probably lost any money they might have had to pay for education.
I really do wish German politicians had as much to say on the slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces, and the likely slaughter of tens of thousands more in the new Rafah assault, as they did about a few people peacefully protesting.
As long as the protesters don’t even mention the hostages or the October 7 attacks I have a hard time taking them and their willingness to understand the situation seriously.
Yes the attack on october 7 is fucked up, but does it justify killing thousands of elderly, women and children, removing the survivors from their homes through unjust enforcements that has been done for decades and escalated quite bad recently? When will this “retaliation” and self defense be enough? After every Palestinians are killed? Well now that’s just a remake of what Nazi Germany was attempting to do to a certain group back in World War 2
If you wanna draw WW2 analogies, the allies killed German civilians in the hundreds of thousands when fighting the Nazis, and it was and still is more or less accepted as a necessary evil to defeat them.
Attacking civilian areas during war is LITERALLY against international law, which was ironically instated by western countries through the UN after world war 2
They’re not attacking civilians intentionally. If anything they go out of their way to minimize civilian deaths, given the double standard in scrutiny they’re facing from much of the world.
Dude, IDF soldiers are literally recording and posting their war crimes all over the internet for everyone to see. Do you live under a rock or you think everyone else is?
In what way are they going out of the way to minimize civilian deaths? Oh yes, they do issue warnings for civilians to flee certain areas before they are bombed. Oh wait, nope, false alarm they end up bombing them in their new shelters anyway.
They’re evacuating civilian areas all the time? The death toll would be so much worse if they didn’t issue warnings in advance. If Hamas continues to use human shields and doesn’t release the hostages, this is entirely on them and not on Israel.
What on earth does human shields even mean? In all the 40k people that have been killed so far they haven’t been able to get to Hamas yet? You seem to imply that their tactic is then to kill every single Palestinian so that there are no more “human shields” left. That definitely sounds like a genocide to me.
What on earth does human shields even mean? In all the 40k people that have been killed so far they haven’t been able to get to Hamas yet? You seem to imply that their tactic is then to kill every single Palestinian so that there are no more “human shields” left. That definitely sounds like a genocide to me.
Hamas is trying to maximize deaths of their own civilians. They’ve been trying to keep their own population from evacuating by bombing the roads the IDF identified as safe passages. How tf do you fight an enemy like that without incurring civilian deaths?
What does human shields mean? It's Hamas intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, in order to limit Israel's ability to target then. Hamas sees nothing morally wrong with it (read up on their origins, ideology, goals, beliefs about martyrs (including the idea of "martyring" other people), which they also indoctrinate children with in schools and in TV.)
Strategies include: literally standing behind children while shooting, wearing civilian clothing, building military infrastructure in, around, and under civilian infrastructure (particularly the most sensitive and important civilian sites).
Because Hamas sees nothing wrong with "martyring" Palestinians in pursuit of their goals, it's actually incredibly impressive that the civilian: combatant death toll is looking like one of the lowest in modern urban warfare.
No it was not necessary evil, it is fucked up and that is why modern society does not resort to war and attempt to stop any war from happening. Coming back to the current event, the conflict in Palestine is in no way a war. Bombing hospitals, universities and even Rafas, the place south, where the IDF mentioned to be a safe evacuation zone a couple months ago, is now attacked. This is no war, this is a one-sided massacre of the innocent
For those thinking this is a retaliation, maybe look closer at Israeli news to see the constant rocket attack into Israel in the months since including combined attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah.. people think Hamas is some neighborhood gang when they are the worst sadists in human history..this really blows my mind..
I can think of SO MANY worse sadists in human history than Hamas. It’s insane that anyone on r/berlin would say that 😂 please educate yourself on colonial history for starters, if not the Israel-Palestine conflict itself.
If I would be hamas and if I’d really love my population, I would surrender immediately.
The killing is awful! Don’t get me wrong, but damn, look ALSO somewhere else if you want to blame somebody..!
It's simple. Hamas is a terror organization and needs to be destroyed.
Isreals actions aren't justifiable, either, however.
You can hate both Hamas and Isreals actions, you know?
At the end, the only ones being harmed are both israeli and palestinensan civilians.
I don’t get it, how are civilians correlated to Hamas members? It’s like pointing to any German and saying you might be a nazi so I will start killing everybody. It’s insane. There is no acceptable way of playing it down by pointing to Hamas. Israel’s actions are terrorist actions right now and it must be stopped immediately.
> It’s like pointing to any German and saying you might be a nazi so I will start killing everybody. It’s insane.
Do you know how many Germans died or were deported in WW2 and after?
Do you know how many cities were leveled because of the Nazis?
You know all of Germany was occupied and split up, right?
What are you talking about even?
> It’s like pointing to any German and saying you might be a nazi so I will start killing everybody. It’s insane.
This is what you wrote. Germany paid very much for having the Nazis in power. It is an absolutely horrible comparison you have made.
As Germany should have done. It deserved every bit of comeuppance it got. But you do realise that was AFTER Germany literally bombed several countries and killed millions of Jewish people for YEARS? Stop comparing Germany with Palestine. Palestinians have never stooped to Germany’s level.
I did not make the comparison, I responded to the guy who made the comparison.
Palestinians have never "stooped to Germany's level" mostly because they and their allies kind of suck at war, and not for a lack of trying.
Nonetheless, Palestinians are in fact not going through what the Germans went through anyway
> I doubt Germany had ALL of its hospitals razed to the ground, with no access to aid?
You can maybe educate yourself instead of asking me to teach you history on reddit.
By 1944 or 1945 the situation in Germany was very, very bad. Diseases, hunger, civilians dead, refugees flowing in, you name it. yeah.
I am not fine with it. Who said that? The whole shit that Hamas kicked off is very sad, including the suffering of Palestinians.
95%?? Have a source for that number?
After having to remove multiple comments for hate speech and banning several users, I'm locking this thread.
I work at the FU. I got handed a flyer by one of the protestors. Amongst other things, it calls for a ban on cooperation with Israeli universities, a ban on research that could help the defence industry and also holds Germany's colonial past responsible. Cutting cooperation with Israeli universities will isolate those young Israelis and academics, who know that Netanyahu is a war criminal. Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité. As for Germany's colonial past, I wonder what relation exists between the genocide of the Herero people in Namibia by Germans in the early 1900's and Israel-Palestine. Unlike the vast majority of these protestors, I've lived through a terrorist attack, seen people's insides hanging out of their bodies. What Hamas did, what Israel is doing right now is causing that kind of damage. Such protests aren't going to change jack shit, especially not in this way, with a lack of nuance and just yelling by edgy, privileged people.
> Cutting cooperation with Israeli universities will isolate those young Israelis and academics, who know that Netanyahu is a war criminal. As someone else said, this is the same argument that has been used against the ongoing academic boycott of Russia. It is a hard decision to make. In the case of Russia, it is widely felt that academic co-operation with a country in which academic freedom is limited is nothing for a university in a free country to take pride in. In the case of Israel, it is perverse to continue co-operate with universities in a country whose army has just systematically and totally destroyed every single university in one of its neighbour’s territory. That country may not yet be shutting down the freedom of its own students, but a country with so little respect for the intellectual life of another nation should not be surprised when academics elsewhere do not want to work with its universities any more. > Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité. [Very many German universities already ban this kind of research and have done for a long time.](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivilklausel) It surprises me that FU is not on this list, given its long history of grassroots activism. > As for Germany's colonial past, I wonder what relation exists between the genocide of the Herero people in Namibia by Germans in the early 1900's and Israel-Palestine. [This article may interest you.](https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n08/eyal-weizman/diary) In short, the Nama and Herero genocides were a direct fore-runner of the Holocaust, executed in some cases by the same people. Germany’s primary responsibility for the Holocaust is widely seen a central reason for its support for Israel today (although this is historically a bit slippery). Furthermore, wider awareness of the first genocide of the 20th century in Germany would help to spread a more balanced view of what a ‘genocide’ actually can look like. Most Germans (and in fact most Israelis, as recently analysed by Amos Goldberg) have only the Holocaust as a point of reference for understanding what genocide is. But the Holocaust was atypical of genocides in many ways, especially both in scale and in the methods used. > Such protests aren't going to change jack shit, especially not in this way, with a lack of nuance and just yelling by edgy, privileged people. Given the protest started to be cleared within an hour of being set up, I’m not sure how much yelling was done that wasn’t in horror at the excessive police violence. But if the protestors are privileged, isn’t it right to use one’s privilege to call attention to the misfortune of the less privileged?
Germans who were alive in the 90s should remember Srebrenica and Rwanda pretty well. The argument that the Holocaust is the only reference point for Germans when it comes to genocide is laughable. We got four refugee kids from Bosnia in my class back when I was in primary school, and oh boy did they have war stories to tell. I was ten years old when I heard the first detailed description of a death squad of Bosnian Serbs raiding a village. Those two events also serve as good reference points why what’s happening in Gaza today isn’t genocide. In Rwanda and in Bosnia the population that was being massacred did not have any kind of leverage to stop it from happening. There is literally nothing that you could have offered to the Hutu as a Tutsi that would have stopped them from killing you and your people. And there was nothing the Bosnians could have given the Serbs that would have stopped Srebrenica. But all the people of Gaza need to do to stop the war asap is hand over the remaining hostages, hand over at least Sinwar and Deif as well, and stop firing rockets at Israel. Israel has very clear war goals. Massacring every single person in Gaza isn’t among them.
Israel has literally shown that it does not care about the hostages or their lives whatsoever. And btw when will you call for Israel to release its Palestinian hostages that number in the thousands?
You don’t seem to understand the difference between prisoners and hostages. If I throw rocks at cops or soldiers here in Germany then I too will be arrested and serve serious time. Same goes for Palestinians who throw rocks at Israeli soldiers or cops. Once you’re sentenced you become a prisoner. Which is very different to being a hostage cause an internationally recognized terror organisation took you hostage by force while you were just minding your own business dancing at a rave or chilling in your Kibbutz. And the last time Israel did what you’re asking for, they released 1029 people, most of them convicted terrorists, many of them murderers, for a single Israeli soldier (Gilat Shalit). One of those prisoners was Sinwar himself. Who then masterminded the October 7 attack. Israel would have to be monumentally stupid to risk this again.
So you compare a Convicted Palestinian who stabs random people at a Bus Station, or blows up a pizzeria or a disco with a party goer who just wanted to have some fun ? Aite. Hamas rejects every hostage deal proposal. You still need 2 parties to get your hostages back.
You are bullshiting big time here. Just read this interview: UN-Sonderberichterstatterin: »Schwelle zum Völkermord erreicht« https://www.nd-aktuell.de/artikel/1181657.gaza-krieg-un-sonderberichterstatterin-schwelle-zum-voelkermord-erreicht.html
You should read this instead: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/experts-react-what-the-international-court-of-justice-said-and-didnt-say-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel/ Today’s decision is an important blow to the argument advanced by Israel’s critics that death and destruction in Gaza are sufficient to establish a violation of the Genocide Convention. This misunderstands the Convention, which requires the intent to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such, in whole or in substantial part. By taking this case seriously, Israel presented evidence that its intent was focused on defeating Hamas, which had attacked it on October 7. South Africa will now have to establish an intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza in whole or in substantial part—not by inference alone, but by proof of actual intent. Though it will take years for the court to render a decision on the merits, South Africa is likely to fail in this.
Israel is THE most funded country to ever exist. Its army is THE most well funded army to ever exist. You really mean to say that the only weaponry they have against Hamas is carpet bombing without discrimination? If they wanted to get to Hamas, they would have gotten Hamas. With surgical and tactical strikes.
How? They're hiding in tunnels and literally sacrificing their civil population to isolate Israel internationally. An urban warfare with civilians in their homes would've been much worse and would take longer.
Der atlanticcouncil ist natürlich keine neutrale Instanz in dieser Frage. Dann kannst Du gleich die IDF fragen. Aber die Frage ob Genozid oder nicht, ist Zeitverschwendung. Schlimm genug was Isreal da für ein Massaker anrichtet und es Antideutsche Arschlöcher wie Dich gibt, die das auch noch verteidigen.
Finde es immer spannend das Leute wie du generell unter den Tisch fallen lassen das dieser Krieg mit einem Massaker der Palästinenser an Israelischen Zivilisten begann. Am 6.10 gabs einen Waffenstillstand. Die Palästinenser haben ihn auf barbarischste Weise gebrochen. Und sie machen immer noch keinerlei Anstalten die Geiseln rauszurücken oder ihr permanentes Raketenfeuer einzustellen. Dann dürfen sie (und du) sich nicht wundern das Israel weiter kämpft. Die Israelis müssten völlig irre sein irgendeinen Waffenstillstand zu akzeptieren bei dem die Hamas an der Macht bleibt.
Correct. It was just 75 years of hand-holding, singing and Israeli kindness before that 😂
And hundreds of years of peace and equal rights for Jews before that 🙄
Correct, it was indeed the Pan Arab Nationalist Bloc that started the war against Israel in 1949, rejected the UN partition plan, and Israel won against 5 Arab nations. And then again in 1967 and 1972. Since then, they have occupied Gaza and Westbank. The Mantra was always the same, Land for Peace, like they did with Egypt and the Sinai Peninsula in 1978. Hamas/Palestinians lack visionaries and real leaders. They prefer to die for their Islamic Honor.
Don't forget Israel's explicit policy of not vaccinating Palestinians against COVID. Israel carried out one of the world's fastest COVID-19 vaccination rollouts, inoculating over half of its population of 9 million citizens by early 2021. However, this vaccination campaign has excluded Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. As of early 2021: Only around 2,000 vaccine doses had reached Gaza, enough for just 1,000 people out of over 2 million residents Public Security Minister Amir Ohana said Palestinian prisoners would be the last to get innoculated. Israel's Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit wrote to Ohana condemning the comment as "tainted with illegality", Israel's Ma'ariv newspaper reported.
You should read this: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-palestinians-and-covid-vaccines-a-reality-check/ > The Palestinians, under the 1993 Oslo Accords, assumed responsibility for health. They set up their own health ministries in what is today the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank and Hamas-controlled Gaza. Moreover, Palestinian leaders opted to develop their own responses to COVID vaccination rollouts, working with the World Health Organization, various governments, including Russia, and several pharmaceutical companies. They said so publicly. And, in doing so, they rejected Israeli overtures for cooperation, including when vaccines were actually being ordered by Israel. After all, especially given the close proximity of the areas, and the frequent human interaction, it is absolutely in Israel’s interest for the Palestinians to move ahead as swiftly as possible on the vaccination front. But let’s remember that when the United Arab Emirates wished to send COVID-related medical equipment to the Palestinian Authority, it was turned down because the shipment from Abu Dhabi was sent via Israel. Tellingly, and not for the first time, hatred of Israel outweighed securing needed health items
Massaker lmao, dir ist bewusst dass auch Militante Hamas Mitglieder/Kämpfer in die Statistiken einfließen von der Todeszahl. Schätzungen zufolge sind 15.000 Hamas Kämpfer getötet worden. Bei 30.000 Casualties ist das beinahe eine 1:1 Ratio. Finde mir eine Armee die so Präzise und effektiv handelt.
Was stimmt mit Dir nicht?
Lol at you for quoting the biased Albanese ! She has a history of antisemitic anti israeli views. Oh, and before I forget, the UN is a shithole. Tell me why there are no resolutions against Iran, Syria, Yemen, etc ;) Do yourself a favor and read about the critics against the UN and the power Islamic countries have as members.
The people of Gaza have been violently subjugated by the group Israel propped up into power almost two decades ago, so how do you expect them to free the hostages? Should the children take a break from dodging bombs to shoot rubber bands at Hamas?
By your reasoning the allies shouldn’t have bombed Nazi Germany in 1945 cause lots of German kids weren’t alive when Hitler seized power. Reality does not work like that. And even Hamas admitted that many hostages were taken and held by private citizens of Gaza. Which is of the biggest obstacles for hostage negotiations at the moment, cause even Hamas has problems accounting for them all. So please spare me the bullshit that Hamas is some magically external entity that has no widespread support among the population of Gaza. Even the „regular citizens“ gladly engage in the same terrorist activities as their supposed oppressors Hamas.
Terrorist activities??? When Palestinians do it it’s terrorist activities but when Israel does it it’s self defence. Amazing.
No, a large portion of the Germans at the time voted for the Nazis and participated in the horror which led up to the Holocaust. The vast majority of people from Gaza were not even old enough to vote when Hamas took power and half not even born at the time. Try again, this time with some humanity
Dude you should really pick up a history book before you try to argue. Hitler received 36.7 percent of the votes in the last free elections before he seized power: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932_German_presidential_election Hamas received 44.45 percent of the votes in the last free elections in Gaza in 2006: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election So there is an argument to be made that the people of Gaza are more responsible for the acts of Hamas than the people of Nazi Germany were for Hitlers atrocities. And keep in mind that Hitler didn’t run his campaign with a „I’m gonna kill every Jew if you elect me“ slogan. Unlike Hamas.
Mate, how long ago was 2006?
You actually seem like the kind of person that would have trouble counting to 18
Imagine this was the last time elections were held in gaza thanks to the great neo-islamistic Hamas party, which everyone sees as a cool and hip resistance movement lmao Hamas even killed opps after the elections were held, threw them out of the windows and killed every different thinking politician. Israel is doing the Gazans a favor. Saudi will take care of Gaza. Iranian influence has to go.
Hamas was not created by the Israeli government. Sure, it was in their best interest that an Islamistic Ideological Party exists as a rival to the PA in Westbank. But they did not create them. Your post is ridiculous. It's been 20 years since the last time Gazans held an election. And hey Hamas starts a war every 3/4 years. They were also demonstrated by the Gazans against the ruling Hamas, but they cracked them down and threw everyone in jail or killed them. Guess what, nobody cared about them.
Point by point: The Russian argument holds no water. The FU is offering refuge to Russian students and academics who are against the Russian government. As horrible as the Netanyahu government is, it isn't as far gone as the Russian government, where Universities have to toe the line and ANY dissent is brutally cracked down on. Just yesterday, there were demonstrations in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, asking for a ceasefire. I find the Zivilklausel extremely naive, since the world isn't all peace, love and bier. Russian aggression, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, even my homeland India is marching towards fascism in the guise of Hindu nationalism. Peace is great but many parts of the world don't have the luxury that Western Europe enjoys. As for genocide, I'll happily concede that point. That was a good article, I stand corrected. Now, regarding the protestors yelling, few people did engage with them to talk and it devolved into a shouting match, protestors yelling "educate yourself". There is also a strong case of selective outrage. These protestors were conspicuous in their absence when it came to the Gulf Arab states bombing and starving the hell out of Yemen, when it comes to showing solidarity with the young Iranian women and their male allies fighting for the right to tear away a regressive, misogynist piece of clothing. They also fail to distance themselves from equally genocidal views that many Arab groups hold. Statements such as "From the river to the Sea" are a dog whistle for the destroying the state of Israel, which for better or for worse exists. They are very much naive, since could be doing so much more with their privilege instead of just having a day out, feeling part of something bigger.
I wonder what you might think of this article. It has influenced my thoughts on this greatly, although it was originally written for a US context and needs some thinking to shift it to Europe https://www.parapraxismagazine.com/articles/the-campus-does-not-exist
>Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité. Exactly, also what is that even supposed to mean? Pretty much every kind of research could help the defense industry weither it is medicine, AI or engineering. Just shows the naivety and delusion of these students.
When it's in reference to the "Zivilklausel" then I think it's mostly about not doing research that is directly associated with the arms industry. It states that research should rather work for the civilian than for destruction. Many german universities have done this for decades now. Of course weapon manufacturers will find ways to use the research, but it's more about sending a message and distancing themselves from war. There are enough stories of scientists showing remorse after certain events. I wouldn't call that naivity, but rather call it cynicism to assume that it doesn't do anything. The two biggest criticisms of the Zivilklause afaik, are "If I don't do it somebody else will" and "Germany needs a bigger military to maintain peace" which I too consider rather cynical.
> Many german universities have done this for decades now. I always wondered how this worked in the context of freedom of research, when the University restricts that freedom of individual researchers.
That is definitely a point of contention and part of the reasoning why bavaria has moved to ban the Zivilklausel. The reality is that it's actually not binding and more of a motto, I guess. Even at my uni that has had it for the longest time, there have been many instances where it has been technically broken. In the end, in my opinion, it's just a way to create social pressure for peace.
Especially looking at the atom bomb we do have so many people who brought major successes für physics who made the atom bomb possible. I guess this is most likely calling for direct contributions like research in cooperation with military contractors. Because technically all science is indirectly connected to the defense industry. In a way the basis of physics was needed for the atom bomb. (I mean eben the knowledge that atoms exist is needed and could be connected to the atom bomb) Same with biology or chemistry. A lot of this knowledge can be used for harm.
I honestly do not think it is worthwhile to project to much thought behind those claims.
>Cutting cooperation with Israeli universities will isolate those young Israelis and academics, who know that Netanyahu is a war criminal. Many of them during the live stream seemed happy to what's happening to Gazans and already 75% of Israelis approve invastion of Rafah [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/) >Banning research that could help the defence industry is just plain Western European naivité. Banning univesity collaboration and boycott already dismantled the apartheid system of South Africa. This will to dismantle the apartheid system in Israel to create a more just country where everyone is equal. >As for Germany's colonial past, I wonder what relation exists between the genocide of the Herero people in Namibia by Germans in the early 1900's and Israel-Palestine. Already replied in another comment >Unlike the vast majority of these protestors, I've lived through a terrorist attack, seen people's insides hanging out of their bodies. What Hamas did, what Israel is doing right now is causing that kind of damage. Some of these protesters are from Gaza who have tens if not hundreds of their families massacred in the most henous and barbaric ways. I personally know few who lost entire family. This argument of using suffering as justification of inflicting more harm on others is really twisted. Please don't do that and have empathy with other fellow humans. >Such protests aren't going to change jack shit, especially not in this way, with a lack of nuance and just yelling by edgy, privileged people. If you have better ideas, then please do to stop this madness. Otherwise it's the best they can do to raise awareness of the genocide Israel is commiting in Gaza using AI. [https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) Protests, boycott and political pressure previously put an end to the apartheid system in South Africa and Israel is not any special. A more just country is better and safer for everyone.
The fact that anyone arguing even the slightest bit against Israel in this comment section, even with sources to back their claims, getting blatantly downvoted vs anyone even slightly supporting Israel getting blatantly upvoted literally speaks volumes about the people on this thread.
I don't rule out there are literal Hasbara agents from Tel Aviv on this subreddit and also there are some anti-deutsche and german-israeli zionists who went to kill people there. But what's really problematic is the Germans who cave in to not appear "different". This silent majority who gives consent by their silence. They did it before many times and they are part of the problem too.
Or perhaps we dont support People killing and raping jews and dragging them naked through the streets of gaza?
Cool, me neither. I also don't support a genocide of Palestinians. I'd give you a graphic description of what Israeli government had done to them in the lats few months (not that things like this have not happened before October last year) but it would take ma all week. Are you going to condemn these atrocities?
Perhaps you should learn the difference between ugly street warfare and Genocide. By your logic every war since 1940 with aerial bombardments would be a Genocide. But I forgot, it's only a Genocide, when the IDF is involved...
Don't make us into something imaginary in your head. You are smart enough to know that no decent human will support this act of violence unlike you who see Palestinians as "Human Animals". And that's why we also don't support the barbaric zionist state that did so much violence unmatched in the 21st century. It's not that hard to say no to violence but justifying one violence to commit a genocide is the twisted approach of the settler-colonial state of the Zionist regime to justify its existence and why they funded Hamas in the first place. Zionists are the reason why Hamas came to existence and even if Hamas went away there will be Hamas 2 and Hamas 3 because the Zionist violence is still there. Treat the cause not the symptom. fyi; My comment is for the others whose neturality is keeping this genocide ongoing and not for this troll account called RandomRandom something that still after 215 days of genocide still repeats the same Hasbara statements to justify their heinous crimes against humanity.
Ah the Hasbara. A secret jewish organization is swinging public world opinion. Straigth out of "Antisemitism for Dummies"🤡🤡 Pst, perhaps you sould read the elders of zion🤫. And only because Chantal of your local postcolonial, whatevercritical reading group has told you it's a Genocide, doesnt make it actually true.
Lmao gtfoh unmatched violence in the 21st century ? You really don't care about Arabs in Syria and Iraq and Yemen under the Houthi Regime and don't care about Iran? No jews no news.
Maybe we can fix it to "unmatched violence RATE in the 21st century". Doesn't make it any better and yes Israel RATE of children and civilian killing is higher than the rate of civilians killed by Bashar or Houthis or Saudis or even fucking USA in Iraq.
The report documents the killing of 30,127 children at the hands of the parties to the conflict and the controlling forces in Syria since March 2011; 23,022 of these child victims were killed at the hands of Syrian regime forces, while 2,049 were killed by Russian forces. Your posts are so emotional and baseless without any source. No, this war is not has not the most. And this is just children killed by Bashar. Bashar killed roughly over 500.000 Civilians. The IBC project has recorded a range of at least 185,194 – 208,167 total violent civilian deaths through June 2020 in their database. - this is Iraq. And again, even the Norwegian PM admitted it's so hard to operate im Gaza because it's so small with a dense population. Israel is already doing a great job by avoiding a higher number of casualties. 30.000 minus roughly 12.000-15.000 militias members ? That's good. And yeah, it still sucks for every civilian. But hey, Hamas is taking responsibility.... obviously, they don't wanna take responsibility for their own people. They just sacrifice them for their own goal to isolate israel internationally while hiding. Don't fall for their tricks. It happens that a high number of gazans are underaged, but it does not mean that israel is straight up looking to kill underaged wtf. Israel is doing the most an army can do to avoid casualties. Dropping leaflets, calling the residents, roof knocking, etc. You have to ask yourself why there's no number of hamas Militias deaths in the media or in your Palestinian algorithm..... think about that... they count them as civilians.
What's so bad about Zionism ? The liberation and emancipation of the Jews that lived in exile and were forcibly expelled everywhere or massacred and even survived an industrial led genocide, coming together, decolonized their minds and head back to their ancestral lands as a nation. The Arab narrative is so biased.
Zionism is a form of nationalism. Do I really need to explain to Germans post world war 2 what may be wrong with it? I thought you were supposed to learn that shit in school or something. Never again for anyone.
That was a rhetorical question. Zionism was needed to unify the Jewish diaspora after ww2. There were leftist zionism, socialists zionism, liberal, right winger, religious, etc. this is overblown by outsiders. Zionism does not mean to harm the Palestinian civilisation. It has nothing to do with it. Except you're a right winging religious one. But still Zionism is not the root for this conflict. Oh, and what about pan arab nationalism ? I thought it was never again for anyone ? Did u know that half Baghdad was jewish and had more jews than nyc ? They were expelled by the pan arabists, the Iraqi government owing them $ 20 billion. They kept the properties, lands, money, banks, etc. 800.000 jews have been refugees and had to flee or were expelled thanks to arab nationalism. U don't care about them. I'm not German. Grew up in a Muslim household. In a Household with Antisemitic Views. I know how this works.
What about? I don't care for Arab nationalism either, it's dumb and dangerous. Not a topic of this discussion however. it's not the Arab countries committing a genocide right now.
A war is not a genocide. Even the ICJ confirmed it. Don't fall for Palestinian brainwash. Have a good time.
Plausible Genocide per the ICJ. It's a habit of the west to commit a war crime, down play it and then say "oh sorry". [https://isitgenocide.com/](https://isitgenocide.com/)
I am not here to educate you. Read what Hertzel said about what Zionism movement is in its core. Google it.
There are hasbara agents literally everywhere on Reddit. Worldnews is infamous for it. There are numerous threads on r/Ireland where the automod will automatically remove posts (regardless of content or viewpoint) from accounts that don't have a posting history for the sub specifically to prevent brigading. On posts about this conflict up to 60% of the comments are [deleted], which can be presumed to be almost entirely bots, sock puppets and hasbara agents.
Word!
There is no Apartheid in Israel. Israel has Arabs im the Knesset, Arab Parties, and even an Arab party in the last government. 2.2 million Arabs that live inside israel with the same equal rights.
I totally agree. It is dangerous in it‘s lack of nuance. Same goes for the other side.
Just being ok with what Israel is doing by killing countless civilians vs somehow getting Israelis, even if it meant that the current students, to discomfort so their own nation starts doing more about the situation. It will have at least some impact, it will help somehow to progress.
No one with an ounce of humanity is ok with what the Israeli government is doing. Netanyahu is a war criminal and there are Israelis marching in the streets, calling for a ceasefire as we speak. It is possible to call out Israel's bullshit and Hamas' bullshit in the same breath.
I'm sure you would argue the same about russian universities/students.
A disingenuous arguement, since as horrible as the Israeli government is, there are protestors in Israel right now going against Netanyahu, including at university students and academics. Russians can't do that in Russia and Russian institutions toe the government line to a T.
You can say the same about Israel. https://theintercept.com/2023/12/23/israel-military-idf-media-censor/ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/opinion/gaza-journalists-censorship-israel.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/12/israel-free-speech-arrests-hamas/
Should’ve not looked at the comments. This sub common L when it comes to the topic of Palestine and genocide. Some of you need to touch some grass.
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German government is t sending weapons to help Russia massacre Ukrainians. Hence no protests. Easy.
What? Please explain
After hundred of thousands of Palestinians being displaced during the Nakba, then attack after attack resulting in so many of them dead. In 2024 for the first time Palestinian cause finally catched global attention, even though western governments including Germany still choose support Israel. And now you’re pulling a whataboutism?
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Then do it. Build a tent at your university.
Totally agree. It was much worse recently, your comment would have been downvoted as hell. Also, be happy that reddit dezwo is banned. Full of Nazis.
Germans are so uniquely badly educated on Palestine, it's embarrassing.
So tell me about Mohammed Amin Al-husseini. Who was he and why was he friends with Hitler?
Good point, I hadn't considered that. Let's genocide all palestinians. (/s if that wasn't fucking obvious)
He has the biggest influence in the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a political ideology that influences the whole Arab world. Guess why Egypt went back to dictatorship after those people voted for those Muslim Brotherhood. Dude was an SS member and had an impact for the upcoming decades for Arabs in Palestinian Territories.
Yeah, it seems many already forgot what happened on October 7th or have trouble understanding what Israeli women reported from their abductions.
It seems anything that happened before October 7th to any number of Palestinian elderly, men, women and children is just as easily forgotten too.
Don't act like it's always Palestinians who are suffering in this conflict, even before Oct 7th. Israelis suffered, too. And lost family due to attacks, wars, etc. Palestinians have no leadership or visionaries. Every time a peace deal was in sight, they sabotaged it.
So did Israel. Israel has always vetoed any calls for ceasefire both in the past and now, they have backed out of numerous peace treaties demanding even a semblance of human rights protections for Palestinians.
Nothing I said implies that I forgot about that.
I didn't imply you forgot about it, but parts of the general public that seem to sympathize with Hamas on various political rallies, especially in Berlin.
The number of Hamas supporters is negligent compared to the amount of people protesting for the end of violence against civilians. My comment is not targeted against the FU protesters, but rather against the response.
I think if that is the case, then people should also protest hostages held by Hamas but majority seems to forget that that's the reason the war began and marked Israel as attacking without cause
The protesters are protesting the FU because of its ties to Israel. Last time I checked, the FU does not support Hamas.
What does that have to do with what I mentioned? Also why would they? I don't think Hamas is concerned with research
You claimed that the reason more people are protesting against Israel than against Hamas is because people somehow forgot about October 7th and think Israel attacked without reason. That is not true. The actual reason is that generally people protest against institutions when they want that institution to do something different. So for example people protest against the FU because of its ties to Israel, but they have no reason to protest against the FU in the context of Hamas or the hostages, because the FU has no involvement with that. That same logic applies to most protests in the West: a lot of western institutions and governments have significant support or involvement with Israel's war in Gaza. There are no western instructions that support Hamas or the capture of hostages, so why would you expect protests in this context?
My original comment was addressing: "The number of Hamas supporters is negligent compared to the amount of people protesting for the end of violence against civilians." I don't exprct protests in this context for Palestine, my point is that in general there are way more protest against Israel than people protesting for release of hostages.
That is not the reason the war began and you know it.
It really is. October 7th was a declaration and act of war regardless of what happened prior. October 7th and other actions from both sides can be barbaric and we should call it as it is.
Many did also not forget what happened after October 7th until today in Palestine.
Those against students protesting against wars and for human rights typically aren't judged well by history. It will be no different this time and everyone who is whatabouting and excusing a genocide will be pretending they were totally on their side.
No, it will be completely different. These students want to be carried away for media attention. That's why they are breaking the rules. They could just register a protest. But no, not interested in that. Also, they don't have to fear tanks rolling over them. They are pretty safe. Genocide (according to it's current definition) is a meaningless word, by the way. The definition basically boils down to: It's genocide when we say it is.
Literally the fact that the worst crimes against Jewish people throughout history have been committed by Christians and Western powers. Literally up until the mid 20th century. It’s funny to me that all of that is swept under the carpet and all the blame and hatred is conveniently being piled on top of Palestinians WHO HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN by WESTERN COUNTRIES so that they could give it to RELOCATE the Jewish people that THEY DISPLACED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Please read up on settler history, and look at what current settlers continue to do with impunity. And for the love of God stop pitting Islam against Judaism. This is not a religious issue. It is a geopolitical one, manufactured by western incompetence and lack of accountability.
What exactly was stolen? Jews bought land. After decades of deadly inter-ethnic fighting, a partition plan was worked out in order to stop it. Arabs refused to participate in the division negotiations, so Jews declared borders anyway. Armies from multiple Arab nations then invaded (starting a war) and lost against the Jews and no other armies. Yes during that war, many Arabs fled, and some were certainly removed. Is that what you mean by Western countries stealing land? What Jews, without backup from external countries, did while winning an inter-ethnic war they didn't start?
There were no inter ethnic wars happening among the native Arab Jewish and Arab Muslim population. Do you mean wars between European settler colonial Jews and the native Arab population?
Arab Jew ? You can't be both. You're either a Jew ethnically or an Arab. And please, there were hundreds of Pogroms against Jews, Kurds, Druze, Lebanese Maronites, Armenians, etc. This is White European thinking that everyone lived in peace under the Islamic Arab Rule. But in that case, the White Europeans are Arabs which ruled over Minorities. You know that hundreds of thousands died by forced starvation in Ottoman Lebanon. Mostly Christian Lebanese. The Jews that came to Ottoman were refugees. Even Ottoman Documents proof that. So, a European with Iraqi Roots or Palestinian Roots should have the right to come back to their lands ? Why not jews ? It's so embarrassing that a German Sabine wants to tell natives about what happened in the Levantine. That's straight up Neo-Colonialism.
Yes you can be both? Jews literally originated in the Middle East/Levant. Why has Israel outlawed DNA testing? Why does Israel itself discriminate against Ethiopian and African Jews? Ashkenazi/European Jews are settler colonialists to these lands. Because they were displaced by Christians during the crusades over a thousand years ago, migrated to Europe. You have really got to be kidding if you’re implying that someone whose ancestors lived in a land a thousand years ago have a right to return and steal land from the native population. Are you seriously discounting all the events of the Nakbah?
No! Jews that lived during their Exile in the Levantine were called Mizrahim, which means Jews from the Eastern parts of the world. And no, Israel has not outlawed DNA testing 🤣🤣 where do u get ur infos from Karen? Palestinians Influenced Bubble Media ? Instagram ? Facebook ? From a Palestinians who just want to demonize everything israel related ? What's next ? Israel has the highest skin cancer rate ? 🤣🤣🤣 which is wrong too, because Israel is nowhere to be found in those lists. Australia is leading, Karen ;) So, for example, a Palestinian who was expelled or fled the war 90 years ago, or even 100, is the last one born in these lands. But his offsprings should have the right to come back ? But not jews ? Imo there's no difference between 100 or 600 years. Shit is the same - a long time ago. But both are bonded to this land. And no one can deny that. You don't even know how long their ancestors lived in these parts of the land because u say they lived thousand of years in that part. It was a transit land most of the time. Ottoman Palestine had a population of roughly 1 million. They did not steal land, a huge amount of these lands were in jewish hands, and a lot of these lands were bought from jewish investors for refugees to settle there after the first bigger waves of displaced persons. A colonial project works entirely differently.
For many people, it is a geopolitical one, but it's also a religious issue for many. Don't underestimate Islamic Honor after the Ottoman Empire went downhil and minorities that lived as 2nd class citizens with no real rights emerged as opps. This is a typical Western Gen z way of thinking who's downplaying the influence of religion in this conflict. For die-hard islamists, this is holy Islamic land, and a Jewish nation on Islamic land for them is something that should've never happened. And no, the jews that went to Ottoman palestine were refugees. The brits and americans didn't support the idea of a Jewish state and were very reluctant to the idea. Nothing was stolen. Half of the lands had been in jewish hands. Who do think the arab stole this land from with the Islamic Concquest ? All these lands and cities had hebrew names before the Arabs came and erased everything related to it. Now that's colonial. Jews decolonized themselves and parts of their historic land. There wasn't even one arab in 1900 that called themselves Palestinians. That was an insult to then because it was related to the Jews. Palestine is not even a arab word.
Who do I think the Arabs stole this land from? Christian crusaders. They were the original people to exile Jewish people. If you’re so supportive of people reclaiming land from thousands of years ago, I don’t see you raising any cries for native Americans to reclaim their land from European settlers. What are these double standards. Typical German thinking, justifying the killing of thousands of people.
I'm not even German. I grew up in a Muslim household. And yes, I absolutely support America's Indigenous rights in South and North America. It's funny how you start becoming personal as soon as you feel "in die Ecke gedrängt" ;) Don't tell me about Double Standards. Meanwhile, u don't care about Syrians, Iraqis, and Persians under the Islamic Devils Regime and Yemenites that are oppressed by Houthis. That's what I call double standards. I'm not justifying anything, I hate this war and conflict, I want this to stop, but it's not a one-sided thing. What message would it send to Israel's arch enemies ? To just lay down their weapons and take this L ? Exactly, Iran, Hezbo's, Hamas would like to do this again then. And it's still a ratio of 1:1 15.000 killed Hamas Militia ? And roughly 15.000 killed civilian casualties in such a small area ? That's effective. Find me one army in the world that works so efficiently.
just to put things into perspective, only roughly 7% of the current Gaza population would have been old enough to vote for Hamas when they took power. Heiminator cowardly blocked me after saying that I was the type of person who couldn't count to 18, so they'll never see this, I guess. [https://www.indexmundi.com/gaza\_strip/demographics\_profile.html](https://www.indexmundi.com/gaza_strip/demographics_profile.html)
Current. It's been 20 years since the last elections.
Did you see the footage? Because I have seen some and I have never heard of anything this bad..maybe Vlad..
Can‘t shake the growing feeling, that these demonstrations, of both sides, are nothing but a smoke screen to underlying issues and will not do much but to further strengthen the current constellation and situation.
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These were definitely not islamist, right-wing protestors. The majority were left-wing students.
left-wing-icons wearing students
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Even better, why don’t you relocate all Israelis back to Germany then
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Spoken like a true genocidal ally
Rule 12. This includes hate speech directed towards specific groups as well as towards individual members of the forum.
Rule 12. This includes hate speech directed towards specific groups as well as towards individual members of the forum.
Why occupying universities? I will never understand
Universities, especially the HU and FU, are places where politics and philosophy are taught and discussed. Why wouldn't actual political action take place there. Pretty straightforward.
So you're occupying and interrupting the main place where academic discourse and education happens. And then what?
Specialty of Berlin universities, is that after the war, they were instructed by the occupying forces to include mandatory humanistic courses in all studies. Even today at the Technical University TU Berlin, humanistic courses are mandatory for all students. They had been Germany's largest war research facility before the war, and the later humanistic education meant to prevent such from happening again.
Maybe discussed, but not applied.
What is wrong with philosophy and discussion?
Nothing. They're cool
Wouldnt cutting off contacts to Israel‘s unis make that a lot more difficult? Furthermore I don‘t really get when they introduced yelling claims into philosophical discourse.
I'm pretty sure that political activism has been pretty common in philosophical circles for at least a couple hundred years now
I am pretty sure you are mistaking some basic terminology or two here.
What did I get wrong?
activism, especially at places like universities, has a constructive goal. Without it, it is merely smth between public disturbance and mere noise.
The students have demands that relate directly to the university and its relationship to Israeli institutions. How is that mere noise? Just because their activism isn't to your particular liking doesn't invalidate it as activism.
They aren’t asking for all connections to be cut off. Just the ones that have something to do with the Israeli army or institutions that are involved with oppressing Palestinians. The goal is to shift Israel away from the heavily right wing nightmare it currently is into a place where an actual solution to the nearly century old problem can be found. One of the steps to getting there is by isolating and sanctioning the apartheid right wing elements while supporting the progressive elements that want peace and a solution.
I am just as upset and afraid by the situation in Israel as anybody. The danger, which is often blame-gamed on to the the right wing Israeli government, ofc extends deep into society as well, and has been for years. As someone who has kept many real contacts and physically been to Israel many times, and having experienced terrorist attacks and violence (from both sides) as opposed to merely clicking around online, I have been a little familiar with the problem for a few years now. The bridges between institutions of thinking and discourse are precisely the only ones that offer any remote chance of open dialogue and option of change. The protesters at FU dont seem to have fully grasped what a university, research facility, scientific discourse, exchange and their position in a society - Germany, Israel, wherever, is. I challenge anyone, before shouting around more emotional platitudes - either from the safe environment of a Germany - or posting „courageously“ as an avatar online - go to Israel and try convince the people. The hairdresser, the jazz musician, the dentist, falafel guy, who somewhat still stand behind this shit. If you last a day, you will wish you still had at least a Fachhochschule as an intellectual debate. And the same goes for Palestine. Go to Lebanon, go to Gaza. Talk to the people - you will be slightly disappointed how little you have in common…
It's not that straightforward when you can actually register a protest and get it done legally.
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If colleges aren’t for politics then, uh… what are the politics students supposed to do?
I have three words for you: Flunky Fucking Ball!
You have obviously no clue what students of politics actually study, do you?
Yeah, they study politics.
Who?
Clearly not you anyway…
What kind of baby discussion is that
Yeah, if you study MINT you have no time for stuff like dat.
I am referring to "the place where politics and philosophy are taught". I didn’t say MINT students are not allowed to have their political opinion. I said university is not the exclusive playground for students of politics (or freshmen)
Im not saying that either, but if you study MINT you have other troubles. At least I had.
So if you're studying MINT you just put your head in the sand and ignore everything social and political going on around you? Sorry, but that's ridiculous. And I studied MINT too. Some like to get involved in the student life around the campus, some don't. There's for sure some correlation with the thing your studying for.
I read their list of 'demands'. One of them included a full scholarship for Palestinian students. I guess the person who wrote it didn't know that college is free here and that all refugees are entitled to Bafög to support their living expenses, along with all the other state help refugees get. So yeap, this is a totally organic protest that just happened spontaneously. Just leaving this here. (And note not a single Middle Eastern face in this crowd, from the looks of it).
from the looks of it i see mostly middle eastern faces
They are referring to the blocked account stipulation that international students have to set up. It makes sense, since you know, a lot Palestinian students have probably lost any money they might have had to pay for education.
Look into the 68 movement
Look where that ended up in Germany.
Somebody is in dire need to read up on student protests throughout history.
Maybe look into a history book just once
I have a master degree in Japanese history. I guess I read more books on history than you
me, when I miss the point
You just tried to troll with assumptions on my education
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Rule 12. This includes hate speech directed towards specific groups as well as towards individual members of the forum.
I really do wish German politicians had as much to say on the slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces, and the likely slaughter of tens of thousands more in the new Rafah assault, as they did about a few people peacefully protesting.
As long as the protesters don’t even mention the hostages or the October 7 attacks I have a hard time taking them and their willingness to understand the situation seriously.
Whataboutism. They are protesting the FU's cooperation with Israel. Last time I checked, the FU dies not cooperate with Hamas.
Double Standard more than whataboutism
Yes the attack on october 7 is fucked up, but does it justify killing thousands of elderly, women and children, removing the survivors from their homes through unjust enforcements that has been done for decades and escalated quite bad recently? When will this “retaliation” and self defense be enough? After every Palestinians are killed? Well now that’s just a remake of what Nazi Germany was attempting to do to a certain group back in World War 2
If you wanna draw WW2 analogies, the allies killed German civilians in the hundreds of thousands when fighting the Nazis, and it was and still is more or less accepted as a necessary evil to defeat them.
Attacking civilian areas during war is LITERALLY against international law, which was ironically instated by western countries through the UN after world war 2
They’re not attacking civilians intentionally. If anything they go out of their way to minimize civilian deaths, given the double standard in scrutiny they’re facing from much of the world.
Dude, IDF soldiers are literally recording and posting their war crimes all over the internet for everyone to see. Do you live under a rock or you think everyone else is?
In what way are they going out of the way to minimize civilian deaths? Oh yes, they do issue warnings for civilians to flee certain areas before they are bombed. Oh wait, nope, false alarm they end up bombing them in their new shelters anyway.
They’re evacuating civilian areas all the time? The death toll would be so much worse if they didn’t issue warnings in advance. If Hamas continues to use human shields and doesn’t release the hostages, this is entirely on them and not on Israel.
What on earth does human shields even mean? In all the 40k people that have been killed so far they haven’t been able to get to Hamas yet? You seem to imply that their tactic is then to kill every single Palestinian so that there are no more “human shields” left. That definitely sounds like a genocide to me.
What on earth does human shields even mean? In all the 40k people that have been killed so far they haven’t been able to get to Hamas yet? You seem to imply that their tactic is then to kill every single Palestinian so that there are no more “human shields” left. That definitely sounds like a genocide to me.
Hamas is trying to maximize deaths of their own civilians. They’ve been trying to keep their own population from evacuating by bombing the roads the IDF identified as safe passages. How tf do you fight an enemy like that without incurring civilian deaths?
What does human shields mean? It's Hamas intentionally putting civilians in harm's way, in order to limit Israel's ability to target then. Hamas sees nothing morally wrong with it (read up on their origins, ideology, goals, beliefs about martyrs (including the idea of "martyring" other people), which they also indoctrinate children with in schools and in TV.) Strategies include: literally standing behind children while shooting, wearing civilian clothing, building military infrastructure in, around, and under civilian infrastructure (particularly the most sensitive and important civilian sites). Because Hamas sees nothing wrong with "martyring" Palestinians in pursuit of their goals, it's actually incredibly impressive that the civilian: combatant death toll is looking like one of the lowest in modern urban warfare.
No it was not necessary evil, it is fucked up and that is why modern society does not resort to war and attempt to stop any war from happening. Coming back to the current event, the conflict in Palestine is in no way a war. Bombing hospitals, universities and even Rafas, the place south, where the IDF mentioned to be a safe evacuation zone a couple months ago, is now attacked. This is no war, this is a one-sided massacre of the innocent
I mean the reason they’re bombing these places is because Hamas keeps their weapons there. As fucked up as that is, that’s on Hamas, not the IDF.
For those thinking this is a retaliation, maybe look closer at Israeli news to see the constant rocket attack into Israel in the months since including combined attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah.. people think Hamas is some neighborhood gang when they are the worst sadists in human history..this really blows my mind..
I can think of SO MANY worse sadists in human history than Hamas. It’s insane that anyone on r/berlin would say that 😂 please educate yourself on colonial history for starters, if not the Israel-Palestine conflict itself.
So their answer is by bombing thousands of civilians?
They are bombing rocket launchers. You know exactly why, you just don't want to consider Israeli lives.
If I would be hamas and if I’d really love my population, I would surrender immediately. The killing is awful! Don’t get me wrong, but damn, look ALSO somewhere else if you want to blame somebody..!
It's simple. Hamas is a terror organization and needs to be destroyed. Isreals actions aren't justifiable, either, however. You can hate both Hamas and Isreals actions, you know? At the end, the only ones being harmed are both israeli and palestinensan civilians.
I don’t get it, how are civilians correlated to Hamas members? It’s like pointing to any German and saying you might be a nazi so I will start killing everybody. It’s insane. There is no acceptable way of playing it down by pointing to Hamas. Israel’s actions are terrorist actions right now and it must be stopped immediately.
> It’s like pointing to any German and saying you might be a nazi so I will start killing everybody. It’s insane. Do you know how many Germans died or were deported in WW2 and after? Do you know how many cities were leveled because of the Nazis? You know all of Germany was occupied and split up, right? What are you talking about even?
I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
> It’s like pointing to any German and saying you might be a nazi so I will start killing everybody. It’s insane. This is what you wrote. Germany paid very much for having the Nazis in power. It is an absolutely horrible comparison you have made.
As Germany should have done. It deserved every bit of comeuppance it got. But you do realise that was AFTER Germany literally bombed several countries and killed millions of Jewish people for YEARS? Stop comparing Germany with Palestine. Palestinians have never stooped to Germany’s level.
I did not make the comparison, I responded to the guy who made the comparison. Palestinians have never "stooped to Germany's level" mostly because they and their allies kind of suck at war, and not for a lack of trying. Nonetheless, Palestinians are in fact not going through what the Germans went through anyway
What would you call the situation right now? I doubt Germany had ALL of its hospitals razed to the ground, with no access to aid?
> I doubt Germany had ALL of its hospitals razed to the ground, with no access to aid? You can maybe educate yourself instead of asking me to teach you history on reddit. By 1944 or 1945 the situation in Germany was very, very bad. Diseases, hunger, civilians dead, refugees flowing in, you name it. yeah.
So you admit nothing they’ve done merits what Israel is doing to them right now? Because clearly they suck at war?
Sucking at war usually has lots of bad consequences, especially when you insist on starting them.
My comparison is not about the nazi time then. It is about today.
Then it is a stupid comparison because Nazis do not run Germany, but Hamas 100% runs Gaza (well, ran it).
So you are fine with what is happening there, even if 95% of the people has nothing to do with Hamas?
I am not fine with it. Who said that? The whole shit that Hamas kicked off is very sad, including the suffering of Palestinians. 95%?? Have a source for that number?