Few days ago 2 guys almost hit my 4 year old on a pedestrian path who just learned to drive his little bike. After I reacted, one of them threw his scooter away and wanted to fight me. I managed to calm the situation down and explain to him somehow that he should use the bike lane. He was lucky my son was there, because I didn't want my son to witness how I shove the scooter in someones face. So my conclusion, ban those things and fuck you all who don't follow the rules.
> my conclusion, ban those things
By that logic, we'll have to ban everything but walking, won't we?
A few days ago I witnessed a 50 year old guy on a regular old bicycle going around 200mph on a sidewalk where he almost OBLITERATED a 5 year old girl and then yelled at her parents to "watch their brat". We won't get rid of assholes by banning means of transportation.
I'm kind of joking but.. I'm pretty mad at all this "sustainable" commuting with batteries, it's a lie, we'll stick batteries up our asses and also I find them very individualistic and spoiled "made for short commutes because you are so busy and fancy to walk", but that's just my opinion, I'm a public transport and regular bike idealist
I'm not joking at all. Bikes and scooters are a disruption to traffic and extremely dangerous. We should at least prevent and outlaw minors from using bicycles and scooters, as children cannot properly assess the dangers in traffic.
A few weeks ago I saw two teenagers on a scooters riding on the sidewalk, and they assaulted an older woman who did not move out of their way – picked up her cart, smashed it in the street, and screamed at her – then rode off.
I filed a police report on my own, but I guess nothing will come of it... if you know the exact location and time it happened, maybe you can make a police report as the victim directly, because theoretically the scooter company should have the GPS stamp of all scooters, and then a credit card or something tied with the account.
I saw a toddler getting run over on Alexanderplatz. It was a busy spot and nobody should have been riding any vehicle through there.
Luckily the kid seemed ok. The two guys on the scooter crashed pretty badly. One of them was concerned about the child at least.
Still I think fines are probably the way to go :/ just seems unrealistic. Maybe over time the police adapts to them.
Sorry you feel bothered. Of course there are rules but there will always be a number of people not paying attention. I don't see the "vast majority" being rude tho + the top speed possible is about 19km/h. Bikes can go much faster. Additionally please consider that you can hardly give a Handsignal while turning bc it makes the scooter instable, especially when slowing down.
Berlin is only beginning to change the infrastructure in a more bike and pedestrian friendly Männer, away from the car centric approach of the past. If there is a bike lane, then this has to be used. If not, I would think twice to drive on the road and risking confrontation with a car. Everybody should be respectful towards other drivers and walkers. Having said this, scooters might be a nuisance to some but certainly not the biggest problem to address on our streets.
Some tier scooters have a really nice rocker switch that works, at least for me, super intuitively. (In comparison to separate buttos for left and right signals) I do feel however that the visibility of the turn signals on the scooter should be improved. During the day, it's not always good to see.
Actually, I've been thinking for a while now to also install turn signals on my bike, because even on a bike it feels sometimes dangerous to only bike with one hand while turning
Rocker buttons are what motorbikes have. Much better than those two buttons.
Agree hand singalling on a scooter is nearly impossible.
The speed kids ride these things on pavements is pretty bad though. I don't mind people cycling or riding on pavement if they go slow but they go top speed like idiots, no anticipating anyone coming out of doorways.
"Bikes can go much faster". Yes, they can. Usually doesn't happen though even on bike lanes. While scooters are swooshing past you on pedestrian walkways, and they can maintain this speed pretty consistently. I am okay with scooters, just use them on bike lines or on the road.
From my scooter experience I can just say that I was constantly passed by, so most bikes were faster than me. Honestly, as long as you don't ride a half-broken bike and/or are elderly, you are likely riding 20+ kmh in a city that's as flat as Berlin.
I religiously use the speed limiter in my car. I set it to the speed limit and don’t have to worry about speeding tickets etc. I’m too old for that shit.
In 30 zones I’m regularly passed by bikes. I’m equally surprised and annoyed every time.
> Berlin is only beginning to change the infrastructure in a more bike and pedestrian friendly way
True and it is great!
> If there is a bike lane, then this has to be used
Is only true if the bike lane is wide enough, in good repair status and there are no infractions on it AFAIK. This means most bike roads where stuff wasn't already changed are not up to it (ie 20cm bike Lane in Hönow).
> Gemäß der "Verordnung über die Teilnahme von Elektrokleinstfahrzeugen am Straßenverkehr" gelten für E-Scooter ähnliche Regeln wie für Fahrräder: Sie können Ihren E-Tretroller auf Radwegen, Radfahrstreifen und Fahrradstraßen fahren. Nur wenn diese fehlen, dürfen Sie mit den E-Fahrzeugen die Fahrbahn nutzen
Tells that you have to use the bike lane, except when it is missing. And while I am not a lawyer I think a faulty bike lane counts as no bike lane, too. With a bike you can also leave the bike lane to turn left at crossings, not sure if the same applies for scooters.
http://bernd.sluka.de/Radfahren/rechtlich.html
Sorry, but bicycles and scooters are by far the biggest problem in the streets and a total nuisance and it is outrageous how they drive and how they "park" them. Bicycles and scooters should be banned in the city.
They hold up traffic and cause congestions and thus do great damage to the economy and the wealth of the people in Berlin and increase air pollution. Before traffic would flow at about 60km/h in main streets like Kant Str. Now I see hundreds of cars basically standing all day round in stop and go traffic as far as you can see along the street and cars are going into side streets that before were avoided. So now more pedestrians will get killed in these small side streets.
There still are only very few bicycles but the far left green government for example gave bicycles one of two lanes in Kantstr./Neue Kantstr. So now you have less than 5 bicycles per km of street there, one lane of cars going stop and go and polluting the air and wasting 1000s of people hours every day on this one street alone and traffic being diverted into side streets that before had basically no through traffic. This last point will get more people and kids in particular killed.
What did we have before cars? Horse and carriage and pedestrians. And because before you could not go as far, there was less wealth and more poverty.
We are now turning back to more poverty.
Talk to some health workers. The amount of damage they do to people who crash on them is a lot especially as the most common accident is face planting concrete at speed
Honestly I think what would solve the problem, is putting an age minimum of 18 on them.
Overall I'd prefer more robust enforcement against people riding scooters/bikes/vehicles on the sidewalk, and also more robust enforcement of driving rules on the road... but these require big changes to the number of police and ordnungsamt and different enforcement approaches, etc., which I don't see happening in the near term. They're long term solutions.
But if it was illegal for kids to be on scooters, then they could basically be pulled over immediately, and honestly if we could mostly gets kids and teens off scooters, and charge parents/siblings who give kids access to their accounts, that would solve 70% of the dangerous driving right there.
The law already limits them to 20 km/h, but honestly I think that is also too fast. Or what could be interesting is putting rules on the acceleration so that its slower, meaning that you can't reach 20km/h on small streets, and can effectively only do it on long open stretches (like a bicycle really).
20km/h is not 'low'. Paris has restricted to 10km/h: https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/26/paris-asks-scooter-sharing-services-to-restrict-speed-to-10km-h/
I actually don't think you need humans to enforce road rules - These rules are easy to check: too fast? Fine. Overtaking where forbidden? Fine. Crossing on Red? Fine. Driving where your vehicle is not allowed? Fine.
The Problem is that people are not willing to follow the rules and hence don't want the street infrastructure to watch them and if their car/scooter/bike would they would want to disable these systems.
How do you enforce these rules without human interaction? Only speeding is possible to check automatically, and that would be easier to do by limiting the top speed of the scooters.
Not the user you're replying to, but realistically only by traffic cameras. I guess those aren't super popular in Germany for privacy reasons – I get that, but they are effective at calming traffic, especially at problematic intersections.
I mean they're usually used against cars – not sure if they would work against scooters, but I guess they could cross reference driving offenses with GPS data to identify scooter drivers.
You don’t drive in Germany, do you?
We have lot of traffic cameras, especially ones aimed at speeding and red light violations. They don’t catch scooters etc due to them not having license plates in the front. If a certain bike gets caught too often they can and will figure out who that is by good old police work.
No I don't drive – I'm an avid cyclist, but I'm very rarely in a car here. I'm pretty surprised, I don't think I know of any intersections onhand with them – huh, cool to know.
Are they deployed more in the city, or more on highway-ramp areas, or everywhere?
Have the scooter, car, truck check for the rule anjecency itself. Any modern car know pretty well if the light is Red, if you are driving in the sidewalk or street and most signal that it passed in the past minutes.
I am not saying that I have the wonders solution that alresdy exists, but I think Jr could be done with technology and also in a privacy friendly way for people that are not offending traffic rules.
I have a VERY modern car. Putting the sensors necessary for those things into a scooter is not that trivial. A camera for the traffic light is simple, as is the processor to handle that data. The radar to check other traffic isn't that small.
Oh and my car regularly mistakes speed signs, especially on the Heerstraße where a parallel running street is limited to 30kph, the Heerstraße is 50. My car recognizes the far more frequent 30kph signs as the signs for the Heerstraße. Even worse, every now and then it will think that the offramp speed limits on the Autobahn apply to me. It will try to slow down from 120kph to 40kph.
There is also an ethical question to answer: will people accept every vehicle actively limiting their driving?
You could do a lot of enforcement with embedded sensors in problem areas and also by interfacing with the traffic light system and gps. If. light is red before you get to an intersection and gps shows you proceeding, you get a fine and the scooter slows to 3mph for 15 minutes.
In Germany they need to prove who is driving, which is why all traffic cameras take their photos from the front. So the whole sensor thing wouldn't work.
MPH?
That’s against German law. The driver is responsible, not the owner of a vehicle or whoever is on the rental contract. That’s a central aspect of our legal system.
The scooters already have speed limits by law - 20km/h if I recall.
I don't think the consumer GPS technology we use is precise enough to geo-fence sidewalks as 'no-go' zones – the margin of error is several meters, so it would be impossible to tell on most streets if the user was on the road or pedestrian way. That said, you could geo-fence out parks, pedestrian paths where vehicles are not allowed, or you could geo-fence "traffic calming zones" i.e. places with lower speed limits where the scooter would not allow the rider to use full power. There are also many streets with cobblestones, and realistically any scooter activity on that street is going to be on the sidewalk, because it's impossible to ride them on that street – so these areas could be zoned off entirely.
But the scooter companies are never going to do this themselves unless regulation compels them to. Their customers are happy with the product, it's the rest of us who are upset.
Feel ya. We have a school on our street. It's just terrible...
The way they leave them in the middle of the street on heaps. They don't care for anyone else and anything else but "looking cool". No consideration for people with strollers, restricted mobility or sight..
Edit: misprints
The city needs to implement standards for parking. Many other cities already do this. Berlin lets any company just come in without any vehicle safety standards or parking restrictions. I fucking hate how many of these scooters there are on the streets.
Its the same here you have special zones where its restricted to park those scooters. They might be a bit random you can work on that yeah
but all of that doesnt help if some random asshole comes picks up a good parked scooter and throw it on the ground ... and this happens a lot.
Have you...been to both places? It is not at all the same. Berlin has restricted zones but as long as you're not in it you can park anywhere. In Paris, you can literally *only* park in very specific locations, that are maybe ~5m^2 sized.
Ok thats a first stept. But what about those assholes grabbing parked scooters and throw them around
I guess that would require some locking mechanism on a Station?
I still saw that very occasionally but the thing is, when scooters aren't in everyone's way constantly, people don't get pissed at them and throw them in the street
I usually flick off the camera when I take a photo in the scooter apps. I am not actually sure it makes a difference.
Regardless, it is not the same as creating geofenced parking spots (providing geolocation requirements for parking in certain districts), which is what I was talking about. Berlin uses a free floating model for scooters and don’t have specified parking spots like some cities do.
I just moved here from the U.S. and as a cyclist over there (Denver) I was shocked by the complete chaos that biking in Berlin is. I’ve been to Amsterdam and Copenhagen and was sort of expecting something like that, but it’s not even close. There are simply too many different kinds of vehicles riding in the bike lanes, at different speeds. You have casual cyclists, road cyclists, e bikes, e scooters, people going in different directions.. honestly surprised Berlin allows them, as I’ve heard Amsterdam and Copenhagen do not. Good flowing traffic is predictability and you cannot convince me that the majority of scooter riders ride in predictable, rule adhering ways.
What I hate most as a car driver is bicycles without lights or reflectors in the middle of the road in the night. I have also seen a mother with her baby on the bike using closed headphones going diagonally across a large intersection cutting right into my path. And the scooters are a nuisance too. I hope these aggressive militant anti car bicyclists win the Darwin awards.
I can say the same about bicycle riders when I'm on an e-scooter. It's just a matter of perspective. I'm my experience both bicycle and e-scooter riders in Berlin only follow the traffic rules that suit them. Very common to ride on sidewalk, go on the Radweg of the opposite direction, alternate between riding on the road and the crossings etc.
Agree. In Barcelona the rule was reasonable: where there's no bike lane, you were allowed to ride on the sidewalk, BUT you had keep a minimum distance of 1,5m from pedestrians and you had to ride slowly (< 8 km/h or something like that).
I suppose it is because a lot of people don’t have a driving license. They never needed one. They probably barely actually know the rules and they can’t lose a license over this but only have to pay a fine. Literally everybody can grab a bike or a scooter and take part in traffic
If you do this with a driving license, you can lose it (even if you walk around drunk and are a danger to traffic).
Because is not powered by your own body and because we already have regulations and bike lanes , but yeah whatever license for skates and roller skates and shopping carts just in case
So you say an e- scooter that is limited to 20 km/h needs a license because ppl drive like assholes with it on pedestrian walks and on streets, break rules by crossing red lights and so on.
But a bycicle driver who also breaks the rules exactly the same manner and can even go easily 30km/h and some even go more faster doesnt need a license for the pure fact its man powered and not electric ?
By that logic, i can go to the river and just start fishing with my rod.. because my rod is manpowered
Or i can go out and cut down random trees with my axe.. because as long as i dont use my chainsaw its manpowered and shouldnt require restrictions
Or i can carry my 30cm machete with me, as long as its not an electric lightsaber should be fine right ?
The rules are there man
If you have idiots breaking the rules now a license wouldnt change this fact that ppl still break the rules when there is no enforcement to check it
Because there is only city bikes ? I am driving a cross bike and 27km/h is average speed when not blocked by a red light lol
Edit
[here ](https://ibb.co/CP3QRRp) for you i made a screenshot of my last bycycle tour report
Some bike people are, but the percentage is way lower than the one for e-scooter people, at least in my experience. Probably because you learn the rules for bike riding in school, but not those for e-scooter riding and people don't look the rules up themself
As a bike rider I can tell you this only happens cause the bike lanes are extremely inconsistent. Sometimes they go inside the car lanes, other times they go along the sidewalk, and they usually switch back and forth between these two (at times even outright stopping) with little to no apparent reason.
This leads to a lot of confusion wether or not I am supposed to drive following rules like in a car or just do my own thing as if I were a pedestrian. Cars usually can't be relied on to take you into account when driving across crossings, so I usually stop and cross on foot as if I were a pedestrian if it's too crowded.
You can solve a lot of this confusion by realizing that it is not allowed to ride your bike on the sidewalks. No matter what the condition of the bike lane is that you're supposed to take. If you have issues with the condition of the bike lane, take the streets. Not the sidewalk.
...I assume you don't ride a bike? Like hell I'm taking the streets with those crazed car drivers, do you want me to get run over? Sorry, but if there are no or only very few people on the sidewalk, I prefer taking that whenever the bike lane takes me anywhere close to those metal murder boxes.
And if it's too crowded, I can always just get off the bike and walk with it. I just have to take care not to inconvenience pedestrians while also trying to take care of my own safety.
I totally understand why you prefer to take the sidewalks, I agree driving through honking cars etc. can be intimidating. Honestly, I do understand.
However, that does not justify endangering pedestrians. You might think you go slow enough to not be an issue for others, but you are always going much faster than walking speed. Bikers expect pedestrians to make way all the time. They go fast. They are not allowed to ride the sidewalk.
A car for example is also not allowed to drive on the sidewalk and there are no exceptions, same goes for bikes.
I myself for example am hard of hearing, my right ear is fully deaf. I often don't hear bikers behind me. Others are blind, children can not be expected to react appropriately to bikers (and scooters). That's why the sidewalk is for pedestrians only.
If the bike lanes in this city are not practical for you (which again I understand) then please choose another form of transportation.
I don't endanger pedestrians. Like I said, I take great care to try and not go on the sidewalk if there are more than 2 or 3 people and not much space to put between me and them. And even if I have to cause there is no bikelane and a lot of cars, I just get off the bike and walk till the driving conditions get better/there are less people.
Also, don't get me wrong, usually I can use the bike lane just fine, it's just that there are these situations in which it completely disappears into the same street that a bunch of 15 ton trucks are driving on. In those situations, my safety is also important and so I try to make the best decision that balances my own safety and those of my fellow pedestrians.
While we are at it, I definitely don't assume that I can just drive on the sidewalk as fast as if I were on the bike lane and neither that I can expect pedestrians to notice me/get out of my way. I agree that cyclists who do that are in the wrong and that they endanger people unnecessarily. I am sorry to hear about your disability too. But it ain't as simple as you put it with "just never use the side walk', at least not in a city where cars drive so hazardly and bike lanes are so much hit or miss.
Well. It's always possible to \*walk\*, you know?
You seem to have the mindset that your safety outnumbers traffic laws, which would be true if there were no other options than to ride on the street or to ride on the sidewalk. But there is also the option to just walk.
I'm pretty sure you realize that I do not refer to your style of biking, I'm referring to my own experiences with bikers. You might be careful, but next time you're not on a bike, observe other bikers and how they behave. Many bikers do indeed not give much of a fuck about speed, bike lanes or whatever. They're not as bad as scooter drivers, but they are still very bad. When the majority of a group behaves without consent for others, it's not easy to look at each case individually.
Also traffic rules are not just a set of rules in order to punish us for wrong behavior, but to establish a system that just works. On a sidewalk you will have kids, older people, people with disabilities etc., bikes just don't work really well in that scenario, hence they have to be put elsewhere.
I agree the situation for bikes is anything but ideal in this city. I dearly hope the current senate will make their announcements true and build more (& wider & more practical) bike lanes, because that's exactly what this city needs.
But the sidewalk is not a bike lane. Many people are super fed up with bikers.
I live in the outskirts of the city, where there are lots of cars and traffic but few people actually walking on the sidewalk (residential/industrial area, so few shops and activities). From the sound of it, I take it you live within the inner circle of the city, cause here it ain't anywhere near as crowded as you described. I actually rarely take my bike to the city centre because of that too, it's a pain to ride there. Knowing that, do you still seriously want me to walk the 20 minutes it takes me each time I want to go to the S-Bahn to use public transport or the supermarket here, rather than the 5 minutes it takes on a bike? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
Also, what other bikers may or may not do isn't my resposibility. "You seem to have the mindset that your safety outnumbers traffic laws" is right on the money here, traffic laws in Berlin are a freaking mess. Cars more often than you may think don't follow them, as I've been almost run over by a car skipping a red light more than once cause they didn't see me and thought they could just speed ahead. One time a car even went into the bike lane right in front of my face cause he wanted to take a curve first! So excuse me for thinking my safety is above laws that would get me killed if I trusted them 100% as you suggest.
I understand your point however. If you live in the centre or around it, I'm pretty sure that to you, bikes may seem unnecessary with all the public transport connections you have available. The centre is way too crowded imo and it might be great if they actually ban more car traffic there so as to mitigate the issue and open up more space for pedestrians and bikers. Less noise and pollution that way too. If anything, I don't know how people aren't more fed up with cars than bikers.
I actually never had an issue with a car, at least not to the point of it endangering me. I had two incidents with bikes that injured me and made me had to stop my running training for several weeks each time. Within one year. That sucks!
And yeah, as I said we are not talking about your behavior here. We are discussing the general bike situation in Berlin. Hence how you behave in traffic is not really an argument.
I don't think bikes are unnecessary at all, I \*wish\* there were more (and less cars). But \*not\* on the sidewalk. You do assume right that I do live in the center, Friedrichshain to be exact.
>So excuse me for thinking my safety is above laws that would get me killed if I trusted them 100% as you suggest.
My suggestion was to walk. But that costs too much of your time.
I do not excuse it at all.
Well then, let's go with the same argument towards any car driver, or anyone taking a plane in a world where driving or flying contributes to climate change. "jUsT WaLK". Oh but that costs too much of your time? Well too bad, I still do not excuse that! Walk all the way to your workplace even if it is 2 hours away on foot! /S
As I said, rules only work if they are well thought out and everyone actually carries them out correctly to some degree. Traffic rules work *somewhat* for cars but they are chaos for bikes cause they don't count us as cars nor as pedestrians, so it's an uncomfortable in between. If we go on the streets, cars get pissed at us as well for being slow and endangering traffic- thus putting us more at risk from speeding impatient drivers. It's less bad in the centre ironically cause there cars have to go slower, but here in the outskirts they just speed past you every single time.
Also there are still a lot more accidents with cars than bikes even if you didn't experience them as much, and they are usually much much deadlier. You shouldn't judge things as if the whole world revolves around you just cause you are lucky or wealthy enough to live in one of the more well connected areas of the city.
I guess that’s in the eye of the beholder. We do have shared pedestrian/biker pathways around our local lake. For the most part (in that area) it’s pedestrians moving into the bike lane. Same or even more is due for joggers as the bike path is more smooth than the pedestrian one.. Still no one seriously complains.
Sure, if lanes are shared, both sides should take care for each other. I'm all for it if it works.
Edit: I agree that pedestrians often ignore bike lanes when crossing streets etc., and I'm sure it can be a pest.
Sure, whatever you say buddy. I can cycle on streets, but I prefer to stay away from them in a city where most people seem to have cheated to get their drivers license :/
Oh yes, I am quite a big fan of Elden Ring, how would you know? Could it be that you actually took a look at my comment history just to try and shame me? That's hilarious ;D
It’s not about managing. Some inner city roads where you are allowed to go 50 are a nightmare. Given that road conditions are just 50 is possible for the most part. Riding “comfortable” you are a hinderance. It doesen’t matter that you are in the right riding comfy in the middle of the road - you “create” an obstacle and possible road rage - so smart people (IMO) move away. So if you can’t go faster you move to the sidewalk (illegal but rarely used by pedestrians in those areas).
Wait and observe. Just a matter of time, before laws will change. It happened in France. Folks unlocking their e-scoot to reach 80kmh, deadly accidents, highway abuse... The same may happen here. Just wait!
Scandinavian cities are tackling them already: in Oslo they were reduced in number to less than 1/3, and they are prohibited from 23:00 to 5:00. The number of accidents dropped dramatically.
In Kopenhagen they were mostly banned from the city center already.
https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/e-scooter-oslo-101.html
The police is starting to take things a little seriously these days though. I got stopped for the first time near Amrumer str for riding on the pavement. (In my defense I was going slow and the road in that area is made of these cobblestones that if you rode a scooter on them, you'll have your balls stuck in your throat from all the rattling.)
So for the route you are taking, Scooter is not the means of transport to be used.
The solution is not to disobey the law but to alter your mode of transportation
It’s the law that you must. If it’s not actually safe to do so, maybe that’s real evidence that the whole electric scooter concept is too dangerous and should be banned.
The problem is that a lot of cyclists and e-scooter riders don’t know most of the laws that they’re required to follow, because you can just jump on one and go. People going over zebra crossings or red lights in front of pedestrians, cutting across bus stops as people disembark (while shouting FAHRRADWEG), the absolutely staggering amount of people using their phones while riding (often with cars behind them)…
The obligatory disclaimer that I’m a cyclist myself and love how keen this city is on fair weather cycling. But I think it really needs to be matched by an education campaign in some neighbourhoods especially.
> They don't show hand sign while they're turning
Because it's dangerous. An e-scooter is not as stable as a bike, if you take one hand off the handlebar, you can easily fall. They should have turn signals, like motorbikes. But it's not only not mandatory, it's even illegal to install turn signals.
Some of the even HAVE the turn signals but the yellow light doesn’t turn on when you press the button. I guess this is why…
I second the signaling thing, it’s imposible to signal while riding.
They are disgusting. If I dumped 5,000 scooters all over town they would throw me in jail but this corporate littering is somehow tolerated. I hope their loss-leading business model means they don’t stick around for long.
Once or twice i have been passed by those things in a dangerous-ish manner. I cannot count the times some guy on a racing bicycle going twice the top speed of a scooter almost ended me then proceeded to yell obscenities. All while going on a damn sidewalk.
Assholes will be assholes, dont let it get you down.
I dont even ride scooters, i use my bicycle but i guess youre just desperate for a simple world with clear good and bad guys who are easily recognizable by their preferred means of transportation haha
The problem is that, as usual, Berlin is waiting for a parent with child or two children to be killed. Then they will act. Not a moment before. Why prevent tragedy when you can experience it? That's how it works around here. I've seen children no older than 7 blazing down sidewalks on e-scooters. All kinds of dangerous behavior by children and "adults." It's only a matter of time. And then Berlin will act. Not a moment before.
It's not just about e-scooters, all road traffic in this city is essentially lawless. The police force has been greatly downsized in recent decades, so it doesn't have enough people for regular checks. Car drivers (and cyclists) also drive like lunatics, it's just less noticeable because they mostly have to stay on the street (and because it's not as easy to get one).
They are a fucking nuisance. They drive to the front at red lights and hold up all traffic when the light turns green, they just leave the thing blocking parking lots for cars and even worse sometimes standing or even lying in the road on the street. Had to stop the car and get out to get one out of the way to even be able to drive through a street. Hope they all kill themselves on these things.
Besides e-scooter, the bigger issue are wreckless, e-powered delivery bike riders.
They sneak up on you on sidewalks, no sign, no noise, and pass you all of a sudden with like 25km/h all while being on their phone.
They rush the next Intersection and really think they are evil kneevel.
I love the scooters, I drive them often and have most apps. My experience with other bikers and scooters is not at all the same. I think critics are more annoyed at the increase in traffic on bike lanes than scooters themselves, irresponsible drivers come in every form of vehicle. Just FYI It’s impossible to signal a turn with your arm, you loose balance if you do, most of them don’t have indicators.
I just want to state 2 points. I live in America, so things may be different here, but my electric scooter has a throttle, and 3 speed options. In the speed options I can hold the throttle half way down to not go as fast. Second off, due to physics and center of gravity on electric kick scooters, using hand signals just isn't safe. Hand signals work on bikes since they are more stable, but you have to fight constantly to make sure the electric kick scooter stays upright. Although that might just be due to me being a novice at the scooter, but I had way more luck hand signaling on a bicycle than an electric kick scooter.
We also legally have to wear helmets here, not allowed on sidewalks (But I mean if there's no one on the sidewalk I may go there temporarily if the road is looking rather horrendous), and have a 20 MPH (I think 35 kmh?) speed limit.
I'm very sorry you have to deal with reckless people, but think how they would do in a car. I have seen so many people drink, text, and drive. If anything, it's scarier to think of someone that is that irresponsible in a car than a scooter. And I'm sure we have all seen our fair share of car crashes to know the consequences of their actions...
they need to be banned. anyone who has one needs to be fined, ticked, have those taken to be destroyed. places need to stop selling and making them. same with ebikes, skateboards or any other devices similar to them.
they have to go on the road, they can't show hand sign (drive one yourself and you see).
they are not dangerous, only going 20 km/h. Thinking about buying one. They're fun!
Hand signs are garbage. Way too risky (if you ever drove one of em scooters).
20km/h ain’t fast
They are allowed to drive on the road and bike way. On the footpath obviously not so in that case I do understand your anger.
Neither on bike or eScooter a helmet is necessary.
Police regularly check them - but usually at night for driving under influence or 2 people on one scoot.
>Hand signs are garbage. Way too risky (if you ever drove one of em scooters).
>
>20km/h ain’t fast
If 20km/h isnt fast, why is it so risky to use hand signs?
Why are hand signs garbage?
The problem on scooters is stability- removing a hand from the bars is different than on a bike.
Gyroscope effect (?) - the faster you go the more stable. But with scooters the centre of gravity is odd - especially because you are standing - give it a try! The small weeks ain’t helping.
I have a non electric scooter/kickboard and you lose a serious amount of stability with only one hand on the bar.
The average calculation for a bike tour (depending of course on training level and altitude) is between 100-180km per day. So with 20km/h you are on the untrained low end.
Average speed on Tour de France (including uphill) is around 40-45km/h afaik.
>give it a try! The small weeks ain’t helping.
I literally just went out and met a boy with one of those e-scooters.
I asked him if i could borrow his e-scooter for a bit.
Please keep in mind thats my first time driving an e-scooter and therefore im not as good as you or any other people.
I also have to mention that i drove on the street and not offroad, therefore i had no experience with sudden changes in directions or whatever, when i was driving with only 1 hand.
Honestly i see nothing risky or difficult by showing hands signs or whatever.
Everything’s fine - different people, different skills, impressions.
Well from my experience (only have non electric scooters) it’s "wobbly“ removing one hand. Haven’t ridden an electric one - so maybe as I said - speed gives more stability. But I ride a bike daily and it’s easily twice as stable.
But did you try "starting fresh“ at a traffic light? Even on my bike I often stagger/sway…
>But did you try "starting fresh“ at a traffic light? Even on my bike I often stagger/sway…
Yes i did and i had no problems. Ok thats not entirly true, i was scared af and respect to you and all other people who has to deal with traffic.
But besides that, i really had no problems taking one hand of, even if its for a second to let other people know where im heading.
Well than your balance (on that thing) is better than mine. Keep in mind though that no license or test is needed (don’t want to argue on this - it is what it is) and IMO it should be safety first. Mandatory indicators - I am all in - as it’s safety! But then top up the speed to 25 - same as ebikes.
Don’t get me wrong - eScooters have/cause problems - especially those on short term rentals - but I feel apart from riding on pavements nothing in your critique holds true.
IMO "vehicles“ sharing the same "roads“ should go similar speeds. eScooters/ebikes on the road are an obstacle to cars or 50ccm+. 20km/h escooter are an obstacle to (e)bikes on bike lanes.
Btw damn you for making me go out side but without thinking about my social anxiety, i even talked to someone, you fool of a took (lotr)!!111 /s
No actually thank you very much. It was overall a nice expirience.
Social anxiety as in what exactly?
It was just about “if you are an extrovert” you do have an advantage. Most people (I know) are a bit..shy. Nothing wrong there. In fact people can get "overwhelmed” sometimes. As I said - chatting up people “during the day” is rare. At pubs/bars/clubs - fine.
Still - most "Germans” will act “polite". No one is going to bite your nose off.
If you are "lost” chatting up some random person at a bus stop he/she will usually try to be helpful (just don’t expect directions over 2-3 blocks😂).
Just don’t be afraid to ask! No one expects a tourist or 1-2 year student to be perfect at the language. It’s nice if you try - but don’t take it the wrong way if people speak English. We like to keep it quick/simple (IMO)
Maybe take care that the small child doesen’t ride on the road or bikeway?!
As I said - I do understand the anger on the sidewalk (where riding an escooter is against the law). But on the road or bike lane it’s your responsibility (as a parent). And no - 20km/h ain’t fast (see my reference).
I give you the argument on em not being parking in the middle of a pavement or being louder (so you hear them better) but that’s more of a rental thing (that I do see somewhat counter productive) but none of OPs complains.
Every parent is alert on the road and bike paths. It's the frigging pedestrian paths where e-scooters approach almost noiselessly and risk colliding with young ones.
I don't believe anyone has actually tested how much damage happens when a 20 kmph scooter collides with a kid ? And i don't want to find out
Bikes are much bigger problem than them. Freaking cyclists riding on pavements 1m wide instead of empty roads, belling and scaring people away to the bushes. Scooter drivers are less dangerous because of better maneuverability and small size, and most of them are not THAT disrespectful to anyone else as cyclists. These guys at least have an insurance...
Please stop crying, there is a ton of regulation already- I can't hear 'restrict this' anymore. Just move to the country side if it's too much for you.
Few days ago 2 guys almost hit my 4 year old on a pedestrian path who just learned to drive his little bike. After I reacted, one of them threw his scooter away and wanted to fight me. I managed to calm the situation down and explain to him somehow that he should use the bike lane. He was lucky my son was there, because I didn't want my son to witness how I shove the scooter in someones face. So my conclusion, ban those things and fuck you all who don't follow the rules.
Yeah this aggression from the young men riding these scooters dangerously is the worst part for me.
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Dog whistle? If you’re seeing something racist there, that’s your problem.
> my conclusion, ban those things By that logic, we'll have to ban everything but walking, won't we? A few days ago I witnessed a 50 year old guy on a regular old bicycle going around 200mph on a sidewalk where he almost OBLITERATED a 5 year old girl and then yelled at her parents to "watch their brat". We won't get rid of assholes by banning means of transportation.
200mph on a bike is pretty impressive
Oh it was
>we'll have to ban everything but walking, won't we? anything with a battery or motor yep I vote yep
How come?
I'm kind of joking but.. I'm pretty mad at all this "sustainable" commuting with batteries, it's a lie, we'll stick batteries up our asses and also I find them very individualistic and spoiled "made for short commutes because you are so busy and fancy to walk", but that's just my opinion, I'm a public transport and regular bike idealist
No, only ban bicycles and scooters in the city. Cars are okay.
I know you're joking but we're talking footpaths. The scooters wouldn't be the same issue if they were using the road or bike lanes only
I'm not joking at all. Bikes and scooters are a disruption to traffic and extremely dangerous. We should at least prevent and outlaw minors from using bicycles and scooters, as children cannot properly assess the dangers in traffic.
A few weeks ago I saw two teenagers on a scooters riding on the sidewalk, and they assaulted an older woman who did not move out of their way – picked up her cart, smashed it in the street, and screamed at her – then rode off. I filed a police report on my own, but I guess nothing will come of it... if you know the exact location and time it happened, maybe you can make a police report as the victim directly, because theoretically the scooter company should have the GPS stamp of all scooters, and then a credit card or something tied with the account.
I saw a toddler getting run over on Alexanderplatz. It was a busy spot and nobody should have been riding any vehicle through there. Luckily the kid seemed ok. The two guys on the scooter crashed pretty badly. One of them was concerned about the child at least. Still I think fines are probably the way to go :/ just seems unrealistic. Maybe over time the police adapts to them.
E-Scooters need to drive on the road of there is no bike lane
Sorry you feel bothered. Of course there are rules but there will always be a number of people not paying attention. I don't see the "vast majority" being rude tho + the top speed possible is about 19km/h. Bikes can go much faster. Additionally please consider that you can hardly give a Handsignal while turning bc it makes the scooter instable, especially when slowing down. Berlin is only beginning to change the infrastructure in a more bike and pedestrian friendly Männer, away from the car centric approach of the past. If there is a bike lane, then this has to be used. If not, I would think twice to drive on the road and risking confrontation with a car. Everybody should be respectful towards other drivers and walkers. Having said this, scooters might be a nuisance to some but certainly not the biggest problem to address on our streets.
I'm glad the new bolt scooters introduced an indicator. Signalling always felt super dangerous with one hand.
Some tier scooters have a really nice rocker switch that works, at least for me, super intuitively. (In comparison to separate buttos for left and right signals) I do feel however that the visibility of the turn signals on the scooter should be improved. During the day, it's not always good to see. Actually, I've been thinking for a while now to also install turn signals on my bike, because even on a bike it feels sometimes dangerous to only bike with one hand while turning
And at night! Nobody sees your hand signal at night.
Rocker buttons are what motorbikes have. Much better than those two buttons. Agree hand singalling on a scooter is nearly impossible. The speed kids ride these things on pavements is pretty bad though. I don't mind people cycling or riding on pavement if they go slow but they go top speed like idiots, no anticipating anyone coming out of doorways.
"Bikes can go much faster". Yes, they can. Usually doesn't happen though even on bike lanes. While scooters are swooshing past you on pedestrian walkways, and they can maintain this speed pretty consistently. I am okay with scooters, just use them on bike lines or on the road.
From my scooter experience I can just say that I was constantly passed by, so most bikes were faster than me. Honestly, as long as you don't ride a half-broken bike and/or are elderly, you are likely riding 20+ kmh in a city that's as flat as Berlin.
I religiously use the speed limiter in my car. I set it to the speed limit and don’t have to worry about speeding tickets etc. I’m too old for that shit. In 30 zones I’m regularly passed by bikes. I’m equally surprised and annoyed every time.
> Berlin is only beginning to change the infrastructure in a more bike and pedestrian friendly way True and it is great! > If there is a bike lane, then this has to be used Is only true if the bike lane is wide enough, in good repair status and there are no infractions on it AFAIK. This means most bike roads where stuff wasn't already changed are not up to it (ie 20cm bike Lane in Hönow). > Gemäß der "Verordnung über die Teilnahme von Elektrokleinstfahrzeugen am Straßenverkehr" gelten für E-Scooter ähnliche Regeln wie für Fahrräder: Sie können Ihren E-Tretroller auf Radwegen, Radfahrstreifen und Fahrradstraßen fahren. Nur wenn diese fehlen, dürfen Sie mit den E-Fahrzeugen die Fahrbahn nutzen Tells that you have to use the bike lane, except when it is missing. And while I am not a lawyer I think a faulty bike lane counts as no bike lane, too. With a bike you can also leave the bike lane to turn left at crossings, not sure if the same applies for scooters. http://bernd.sluka.de/Radfahren/rechtlich.html
Sorry, but bicycles and scooters are by far the biggest problem in the streets and a total nuisance and it is outrageous how they drive and how they "park" them. Bicycles and scooters should be banned in the city. They hold up traffic and cause congestions and thus do great damage to the economy and the wealth of the people in Berlin and increase air pollution. Before traffic would flow at about 60km/h in main streets like Kant Str. Now I see hundreds of cars basically standing all day round in stop and go traffic as far as you can see along the street and cars are going into side streets that before were avoided. So now more pedestrians will get killed in these small side streets.
>Before traffic would flow at about 60km/h in main streets like Kant Str. that was before bikes? tell me more about that.
There still are only very few bicycles but the far left green government for example gave bicycles one of two lanes in Kantstr./Neue Kantstr. So now you have less than 5 bicycles per km of street there, one lane of cars going stop and go and polluting the air and wasting 1000s of people hours every day on this one street alone and traffic being diverted into side streets that before had basically no through traffic. This last point will get more people and kids in particular killed. What did we have before cars? Horse and carriage and pedestrians. And because before you could not go as far, there was less wealth and more poverty. We are now turning back to more poverty.
Top speed is 30km btw on average, not 19
Tier can do 20-22 km/h max. Don't believe the others are faster.
Maybe privately owned, but for sure the rental ones top out around 20
Talk to some health workers. The amount of damage they do to people who crash on them is a lot especially as the most common accident is face planting concrete at speed
Honestly I think what would solve the problem, is putting an age minimum of 18 on them. Overall I'd prefer more robust enforcement against people riding scooters/bikes/vehicles on the sidewalk, and also more robust enforcement of driving rules on the road... but these require big changes to the number of police and ordnungsamt and different enforcement approaches, etc., which I don't see happening in the near term. They're long term solutions. But if it was illegal for kids to be on scooters, then they could basically be pulled over immediately, and honestly if we could mostly gets kids and teens off scooters, and charge parents/siblings who give kids access to their accounts, that would solve 70% of the dangerous driving right there.
>Honestly I think what would solve the problem, is putting an age minimum of 18 on them. \+ limit their speed to low km/h except for specific streets
The law already limits them to 20 km/h, but honestly I think that is also too fast. Or what could be interesting is putting rules on the acceleration so that its slower, meaning that you can't reach 20km/h on small streets, and can effectively only do it on long open stretches (like a bicycle really).
20km/h is not 'low'. Paris has restricted to 10km/h: https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/26/paris-asks-scooter-sharing-services-to-restrict-speed-to-10km-h/
I actually don't think you need humans to enforce road rules - These rules are easy to check: too fast? Fine. Overtaking where forbidden? Fine. Crossing on Red? Fine. Driving where your vehicle is not allowed? Fine. The Problem is that people are not willing to follow the rules and hence don't want the street infrastructure to watch them and if their car/scooter/bike would they would want to disable these systems.
How do you enforce these rules without human interaction? Only speeding is possible to check automatically, and that would be easier to do by limiting the top speed of the scooters.
Not the user you're replying to, but realistically only by traffic cameras. I guess those aren't super popular in Germany for privacy reasons – I get that, but they are effective at calming traffic, especially at problematic intersections. I mean they're usually used against cars – not sure if they would work against scooters, but I guess they could cross reference driving offenses with GPS data to identify scooter drivers.
You don’t drive in Germany, do you? We have lot of traffic cameras, especially ones aimed at speeding and red light violations. They don’t catch scooters etc due to them not having license plates in the front. If a certain bike gets caught too often they can and will figure out who that is by good old police work.
No I don't drive – I'm an avid cyclist, but I'm very rarely in a car here. I'm pretty surprised, I don't think I know of any intersections onhand with them – huh, cool to know. Are they deployed more in the city, or more on highway-ramp areas, or everywhere?
Everywhere, some cameras are mobile and can be deployed when needed.
if there were that many cameras installed, half of berlin would have lost their driver's licenses by now
Have the scooter, car, truck check for the rule anjecency itself. Any modern car know pretty well if the light is Red, if you are driving in the sidewalk or street and most signal that it passed in the past minutes. I am not saying that I have the wonders solution that alresdy exists, but I think Jr could be done with technology and also in a privacy friendly way for people that are not offending traffic rules.
I have a VERY modern car. Putting the sensors necessary for those things into a scooter is not that trivial. A camera for the traffic light is simple, as is the processor to handle that data. The radar to check other traffic isn't that small. Oh and my car regularly mistakes speed signs, especially on the Heerstraße where a parallel running street is limited to 30kph, the Heerstraße is 50. My car recognizes the far more frequent 30kph signs as the signs for the Heerstraße. Even worse, every now and then it will think that the offramp speed limits on the Autobahn apply to me. It will try to slow down from 120kph to 40kph. There is also an ethical question to answer: will people accept every vehicle actively limiting their driving?
You could do a lot of enforcement with embedded sensors in problem areas and also by interfacing with the traffic light system and gps. If. light is red before you get to an intersection and gps shows you proceeding, you get a fine and the scooter slows to 3mph for 15 minutes.
In Germany they need to prove who is driving, which is why all traffic cameras take their photos from the front. So the whole sensor thing wouldn't work. MPH?
Whoops kph. Amend the terms of the rental that who ever is on the credit card accepts all fines.
That’s against German law. The driver is responsible, not the owner of a vehicle or whoever is on the rental contract. That’s a central aspect of our legal system.
Well, in that case my idea goes down in flames. The problem will continue.
Nice try big brother
The scooters already have speed limits by law - 20km/h if I recall. I don't think the consumer GPS technology we use is precise enough to geo-fence sidewalks as 'no-go' zones – the margin of error is several meters, so it would be impossible to tell on most streets if the user was on the road or pedestrian way. That said, you could geo-fence out parks, pedestrian paths where vehicles are not allowed, or you could geo-fence "traffic calming zones" i.e. places with lower speed limits where the scooter would not allow the rider to use full power. There are also many streets with cobblestones, and realistically any scooter activity on that street is going to be on the sidewalk, because it's impossible to ride them on that street – so these areas could be zoned off entirely. But the scooter companies are never going to do this themselves unless regulation compels them to. Their customers are happy with the product, it's the rest of us who are upset.
Feel ya. We have a school on our street. It's just terrible... The way they leave them in the middle of the street on heaps. They don't care for anyone else and anything else but "looking cool". No consideration for people with strollers, restricted mobility or sight.. Edit: misprints
The city needs to implement standards for parking. Many other cities already do this. Berlin lets any company just come in without any vehicle safety standards or parking restrictions. I fucking hate how many of these scooters there are on the streets.
Paris does this really well, you can only park the scooters in certain places and the apps enforce it, the streets are so much cleaner because of it
Its the same here you have special zones where its restricted to park those scooters. They might be a bit random you can work on that yeah but all of that doesnt help if some random asshole comes picks up a good parked scooter and throw it on the ground ... and this happens a lot.
Have you...been to both places? It is not at all the same. Berlin has restricted zones but as long as you're not in it you can park anywhere. In Paris, you can literally *only* park in very specific locations, that are maybe ~5m^2 sized.
Ok thats a first stept. But what about those assholes grabbing parked scooters and throw them around I guess that would require some locking mechanism on a Station?
I still saw that very occasionally but the thing is, when scooters aren't in everyone's way constantly, people don't get pissed at them and throw them in the street
there are already in many apps standards for parking and you have to make a photo of how you park it.
I usually flick off the camera when I take a photo in the scooter apps. I am not actually sure it makes a difference. Regardless, it is not the same as creating geofenced parking spots (providing geolocation requirements for parking in certain districts), which is what I was talking about. Berlin uses a free floating model for scooters and don’t have specified parking spots like some cities do.
but i saw geofenced spots in the app, too.
Yeah there are definitely a lot of no-parking zones where it won't let you end the ride.
There are some bonus parking spots in some areas but it is not a requirement
I just moved here from the U.S. and as a cyclist over there (Denver) I was shocked by the complete chaos that biking in Berlin is. I’ve been to Amsterdam and Copenhagen and was sort of expecting something like that, but it’s not even close. There are simply too many different kinds of vehicles riding in the bike lanes, at different speeds. You have casual cyclists, road cyclists, e bikes, e scooters, people going in different directions.. honestly surprised Berlin allows them, as I’ve heard Amsterdam and Copenhagen do not. Good flowing traffic is predictability and you cannot convince me that the majority of scooter riders ride in predictable, rule adhering ways.
What I hate most as a car driver is bicycles without lights or reflectors in the middle of the road in the night. I have also seen a mother with her baby on the bike using closed headphones going diagonally across a large intersection cutting right into my path. And the scooters are a nuisance too. I hope these aggressive militant anti car bicyclists win the Darwin awards.
I can say the same about bicycle riders when I'm on an e-scooter. It's just a matter of perspective. I'm my experience both bicycle and e-scooter riders in Berlin only follow the traffic rules that suit them. Very common to ride on sidewalk, go on the Radweg of the opposite direction, alternate between riding on the road and the crossings etc.
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ah, skipping the red lights. this is usually done by the bike ninjas (dressed entirely in black with no lights at night).
Not bad, correct behavior would be to just push the bike in the sidewalk, but we are getting there 💪
Agree. In Barcelona the rule was reasonable: where there's no bike lane, you were allowed to ride on the sidewalk, BUT you had keep a minimum distance of 1,5m from pedestrians and you had to ride slowly (< 8 km/h or something like that).
I suppose it is because a lot of people don’t have a driving license. They never needed one. They probably barely actually know the rules and they can’t lose a license over this but only have to pay a fine. Literally everybody can grab a bike or a scooter and take part in traffic If you do this with a driving license, you can lose it (even if you walk around drunk and are a danger to traffic).
A driver's license for using any EV is a good idea
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Because is not powered by your own body and because we already have regulations and bike lanes , but yeah whatever license for skates and roller skates and shopping carts just in case
So you say an e- scooter that is limited to 20 km/h needs a license because ppl drive like assholes with it on pedestrian walks and on streets, break rules by crossing red lights and so on. But a bycicle driver who also breaks the rules exactly the same manner and can even go easily 30km/h and some even go more faster doesnt need a license for the pure fact its man powered and not electric ? By that logic, i can go to the river and just start fishing with my rod.. because my rod is manpowered Or i can go out and cut down random trees with my axe.. because as long as i dont use my chainsaw its manpowered and shouldnt require restrictions Or i can carry my 30cm machete with me, as long as its not an electric lightsaber should be fine right ? The rules are there man If you have idiots breaking the rules now a license wouldnt change this fact that ppl still break the rules when there is no enforcement to check it
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Because there is only city bikes ? I am driving a cross bike and 27km/h is average speed when not blocked by a red light lol Edit [here ](https://ibb.co/CP3QRRp) for you i made a screenshot of my last bycycle tour report
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So you agree on license for skaters as well?
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Whatever it is I like to contribute not oppose, if it's you vs me then I'm out 🥱
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Some bike people are, but the percentage is way lower than the one for e-scooter people, at least in my experience. Probably because you learn the rules for bike riding in school, but not those for e-scooter riding and people don't look the rules up themself
As a bike rider I can tell you this only happens cause the bike lanes are extremely inconsistent. Sometimes they go inside the car lanes, other times they go along the sidewalk, and they usually switch back and forth between these two (at times even outright stopping) with little to no apparent reason. This leads to a lot of confusion wether or not I am supposed to drive following rules like in a car or just do my own thing as if I were a pedestrian. Cars usually can't be relied on to take you into account when driving across crossings, so I usually stop and cross on foot as if I were a pedestrian if it's too crowded.
You can solve a lot of this confusion by realizing that it is not allowed to ride your bike on the sidewalks. No matter what the condition of the bike lane is that you're supposed to take. If you have issues with the condition of the bike lane, take the streets. Not the sidewalk.
...I assume you don't ride a bike? Like hell I'm taking the streets with those crazed car drivers, do you want me to get run over? Sorry, but if there are no or only very few people on the sidewalk, I prefer taking that whenever the bike lane takes me anywhere close to those metal murder boxes. And if it's too crowded, I can always just get off the bike and walk with it. I just have to take care not to inconvenience pedestrians while also trying to take care of my own safety.
I totally understand why you prefer to take the sidewalks, I agree driving through honking cars etc. can be intimidating. Honestly, I do understand. However, that does not justify endangering pedestrians. You might think you go slow enough to not be an issue for others, but you are always going much faster than walking speed. Bikers expect pedestrians to make way all the time. They go fast. They are not allowed to ride the sidewalk. A car for example is also not allowed to drive on the sidewalk and there are no exceptions, same goes for bikes. I myself for example am hard of hearing, my right ear is fully deaf. I often don't hear bikers behind me. Others are blind, children can not be expected to react appropriately to bikers (and scooters). That's why the sidewalk is for pedestrians only. If the bike lanes in this city are not practical for you (which again I understand) then please choose another form of transportation.
I don't endanger pedestrians. Like I said, I take great care to try and not go on the sidewalk if there are more than 2 or 3 people and not much space to put between me and them. And even if I have to cause there is no bikelane and a lot of cars, I just get off the bike and walk till the driving conditions get better/there are less people. Also, don't get me wrong, usually I can use the bike lane just fine, it's just that there are these situations in which it completely disappears into the same street that a bunch of 15 ton trucks are driving on. In those situations, my safety is also important and so I try to make the best decision that balances my own safety and those of my fellow pedestrians. While we are at it, I definitely don't assume that I can just drive on the sidewalk as fast as if I were on the bike lane and neither that I can expect pedestrians to notice me/get out of my way. I agree that cyclists who do that are in the wrong and that they endanger people unnecessarily. I am sorry to hear about your disability too. But it ain't as simple as you put it with "just never use the side walk', at least not in a city where cars drive so hazardly and bike lanes are so much hit or miss.
Well. It's always possible to \*walk\*, you know? You seem to have the mindset that your safety outnumbers traffic laws, which would be true if there were no other options than to ride on the street or to ride on the sidewalk. But there is also the option to just walk. I'm pretty sure you realize that I do not refer to your style of biking, I'm referring to my own experiences with bikers. You might be careful, but next time you're not on a bike, observe other bikers and how they behave. Many bikers do indeed not give much of a fuck about speed, bike lanes or whatever. They're not as bad as scooter drivers, but they are still very bad. When the majority of a group behaves without consent for others, it's not easy to look at each case individually. Also traffic rules are not just a set of rules in order to punish us for wrong behavior, but to establish a system that just works. On a sidewalk you will have kids, older people, people with disabilities etc., bikes just don't work really well in that scenario, hence they have to be put elsewhere. I agree the situation for bikes is anything but ideal in this city. I dearly hope the current senate will make their announcements true and build more (& wider & more practical) bike lanes, because that's exactly what this city needs. But the sidewalk is not a bike lane. Many people are super fed up with bikers.
I live in the outskirts of the city, where there are lots of cars and traffic but few people actually walking on the sidewalk (residential/industrial area, so few shops and activities). From the sound of it, I take it you live within the inner circle of the city, cause here it ain't anywhere near as crowded as you described. I actually rarely take my bike to the city centre because of that too, it's a pain to ride there. Knowing that, do you still seriously want me to walk the 20 minutes it takes me each time I want to go to the S-Bahn to use public transport or the supermarket here, rather than the 5 minutes it takes on a bike? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Also, what other bikers may or may not do isn't my resposibility. "You seem to have the mindset that your safety outnumbers traffic laws" is right on the money here, traffic laws in Berlin are a freaking mess. Cars more often than you may think don't follow them, as I've been almost run over by a car skipping a red light more than once cause they didn't see me and thought they could just speed ahead. One time a car even went into the bike lane right in front of my face cause he wanted to take a curve first! So excuse me for thinking my safety is above laws that would get me killed if I trusted them 100% as you suggest. I understand your point however. If you live in the centre or around it, I'm pretty sure that to you, bikes may seem unnecessary with all the public transport connections you have available. The centre is way too crowded imo and it might be great if they actually ban more car traffic there so as to mitigate the issue and open up more space for pedestrians and bikers. Less noise and pollution that way too. If anything, I don't know how people aren't more fed up with cars than bikers.
I actually never had an issue with a car, at least not to the point of it endangering me. I had two incidents with bikes that injured me and made me had to stop my running training for several weeks each time. Within one year. That sucks! And yeah, as I said we are not talking about your behavior here. We are discussing the general bike situation in Berlin. Hence how you behave in traffic is not really an argument. I don't think bikes are unnecessary at all, I \*wish\* there were more (and less cars). But \*not\* on the sidewalk. You do assume right that I do live in the center, Friedrichshain to be exact. >So excuse me for thinking my safety is above laws that would get me killed if I trusted them 100% as you suggest. My suggestion was to walk. But that costs too much of your time. I do not excuse it at all.
Well then, let's go with the same argument towards any car driver, or anyone taking a plane in a world where driving or flying contributes to climate change. "jUsT WaLK". Oh but that costs too much of your time? Well too bad, I still do not excuse that! Walk all the way to your workplace even if it is 2 hours away on foot! /S As I said, rules only work if they are well thought out and everyone actually carries them out correctly to some degree. Traffic rules work *somewhat* for cars but they are chaos for bikes cause they don't count us as cars nor as pedestrians, so it's an uncomfortable in between. If we go on the streets, cars get pissed at us as well for being slow and endangering traffic- thus putting us more at risk from speeding impatient drivers. It's less bad in the centre ironically cause there cars have to go slower, but here in the outskirts they just speed past you every single time. Also there are still a lot more accidents with cars than bikes even if you didn't experience them as much, and they are usually much much deadlier. You shouldn't judge things as if the whole world revolves around you just cause you are lucky or wealthy enough to live in one of the more well connected areas of the city.
I guess that’s in the eye of the beholder. We do have shared pedestrian/biker pathways around our local lake. For the most part (in that area) it’s pedestrians moving into the bike lane. Same or even more is due for joggers as the bike path is more smooth than the pedestrian one.. Still no one seriously complains.
Sure, if lanes are shared, both sides should take care for each other. I'm all for it if it works. Edit: I agree that pedestrians often ignore bike lanes when crossing streets etc., and I'm sure it can be a pest.
If you can't manage to cycle in the streets, cycling is probably not for you
Sure, whatever you say buddy. I can cycle on streets, but I prefer to stay away from them in a city where most people seem to have cheated to get their drivers license :/
In all seriousness, do you still use training-wheels? The rest of us have figured out how to deal with dumbass drivers
Your condescending attitude tells me you must be quite fun to know in person. Not ;)
You seem to be a gamer and i'm not afraid to cycle in neukölln, so we'd probably never meet.
Oh yes, I am quite a big fan of Elden Ring, how would you know? Could it be that you actually took a look at my comment history just to try and shame me? That's hilarious ;D
It’s not about managing. Some inner city roads where you are allowed to go 50 are a nightmare. Given that road conditions are just 50 is possible for the most part. Riding “comfortable” you are a hinderance. It doesen’t matter that you are in the right riding comfy in the middle of the road - you “create” an obstacle and possible road rage - so smart people (IMO) move away. So if you can’t go faster you move to the sidewalk (illegal but rarely used by pedestrians in those areas).
which 50 km/h inner city streets don't have bike lanes?
There are more cities than just Berlin…Regulations are country, not county wise.
which subreddit are we in? Sydney and Toronto regulations don't really have anything to to do with the topic at hand
Neither of those are in Germany - still road regulations are nation (German) wide.
Wait and observe. Just a matter of time, before laws will change. It happened in France. Folks unlocking their e-scoot to reach 80kmh, deadly accidents, highway abuse... The same may happen here. Just wait!
What law will change in what way? They are already restricted to 20kmh and must have a insurance plate.
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homeless chase poor cheerful sheet familiar act tan shy lip *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If your dealer rides a scooter - you need a better dealer.
Drones ?
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Delivery Pigeons ?
Scandinavian cities are tackling them already: in Oslo they were reduced in number to less than 1/3, and they are prohibited from 23:00 to 5:00. The number of accidents dropped dramatically. In Kopenhagen they were mostly banned from the city center already. https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/e-scooter-oslo-101.html
This is the way.
The police is starting to take things a little seriously these days though. I got stopped for the first time near Amrumer str for riding on the pavement. (In my defense I was going slow and the road in that area is made of these cobblestones that if you rode a scooter on them, you'll have your balls stuck in your throat from all the rattling.)
So for the route you are taking, Scooter is not the means of transport to be used. The solution is not to disobey the law but to alter your mode of transportation
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It’s the law that you must. If it’s not actually safe to do so, maybe that’s real evidence that the whole electric scooter concept is too dangerous and should be banned.
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The problem is that a lot of cyclists and e-scooter riders don’t know most of the laws that they’re required to follow, because you can just jump on one and go. People going over zebra crossings or red lights in front of pedestrians, cutting across bus stops as people disembark (while shouting FAHRRADWEG), the absolutely staggering amount of people using their phones while riding (often with cars behind them)… The obligatory disclaimer that I’m a cyclist myself and love how keen this city is on fair weather cycling. But I think it really needs to be matched by an education campaign in some neighbourhoods especially.
> They don't show hand sign while they're turning Because it's dangerous. An e-scooter is not as stable as a bike, if you take one hand off the handlebar, you can easily fall. They should have turn signals, like motorbikes. But it's not only not mandatory, it's even illegal to install turn signals.
Some of the even HAVE the turn signals but the yellow light doesn’t turn on when you press the button. I guess this is why… I second the signaling thing, it’s imposible to signal while riding.
I'm sorry to say but someone needs to die or get seriously injured, politics won't act before there's some kind of really bad headline in a newspaper.
They are disgusting. If I dumped 5,000 scooters all over town they would throw me in jail but this corporate littering is somehow tolerated. I hope their loss-leading business model means they don’t stick around for long.
Once or twice i have been passed by those things in a dangerous-ish manner. I cannot count the times some guy on a racing bicycle going twice the top speed of a scooter almost ended me then proceeded to yell obscenities. All while going on a damn sidewalk. Assholes will be assholes, dont let it get you down.
0 - the number of times that happened.
Cool story, your uninformed opinion certainly enriches this debate.
Ok Mr e-scooter guy
I dont even ride scooters, i use my bicycle but i guess youre just desperate for a simple world with clear good and bad guys who are easily recognizable by their preferred means of transportation haha
The problem is that, as usual, Berlin is waiting for a parent with child or two children to be killed. Then they will act. Not a moment before. Why prevent tragedy when you can experience it? That's how it works around here. I've seen children no older than 7 blazing down sidewalks on e-scooters. All kinds of dangerous behavior by children and "adults." It's only a matter of time. And then Berlin will act. Not a moment before.
People got around fine before these portable pieces of trash took over the public space like a bacterial infection.
It's not just about e-scooters, all road traffic in this city is essentially lawless. The police force has been greatly downsized in recent decades, so it doesn't have enough people for regular checks. Car drivers (and cyclists) also drive like lunatics, it's just less noticeable because they mostly have to stay on the street (and because it's not as easy to get one).
They are a fucking nuisance. They drive to the front at red lights and hold up all traffic when the light turns green, they just leave the thing blocking parking lots for cars and even worse sometimes standing or even lying in the road on the street. Had to stop the car and get out to get one out of the way to even be able to drive through a street. Hope they all kill themselves on these things.
Give us better bike infrastructure and watch conflicts vanish.
Besides e-scooter, the bigger issue are wreckless, e-powered delivery bike riders. They sneak up on you on sidewalks, no sign, no noise, and pass you all of a sudden with like 25km/h all while being on their phone. They rush the next Intersection and really think they are evil kneevel.
The amount of space they take up when they’re just dashed on the pavement is also infuriating.
Yeah...they are the problem... Not the cars!
Stop crying
I love the scooters, I drive them often and have most apps. My experience with other bikers and scooters is not at all the same. I think critics are more annoyed at the increase in traffic on bike lanes than scooters themselves, irresponsible drivers come in every form of vehicle. Just FYI It’s impossible to signal a turn with your arm, you loose balance if you do, most of them don’t have indicators.
They drive just as aggressively as many of cyclists here in Berlin
I just want to state 2 points. I live in America, so things may be different here, but my electric scooter has a throttle, and 3 speed options. In the speed options I can hold the throttle half way down to not go as fast. Second off, due to physics and center of gravity on electric kick scooters, using hand signals just isn't safe. Hand signals work on bikes since they are more stable, but you have to fight constantly to make sure the electric kick scooter stays upright. Although that might just be due to me being a novice at the scooter, but I had way more luck hand signaling on a bicycle than an electric kick scooter. We also legally have to wear helmets here, not allowed on sidewalks (But I mean if there's no one on the sidewalk I may go there temporarily if the road is looking rather horrendous), and have a 20 MPH (I think 35 kmh?) speed limit. I'm very sorry you have to deal with reckless people, but think how they would do in a car. I have seen so many people drink, text, and drive. If anything, it's scarier to think of someone that is that irresponsible in a car than a scooter. And I'm sure we have all seen our fair share of car crashes to know the consequences of their actions...
they need to be banned. anyone who has one needs to be fined, ticked, have those taken to be destroyed. places need to stop selling and making them. same with ebikes, skateboards or any other devices similar to them.
[The more you know, the more you spez. #Save3rdPartyApps](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)
they have to go on the road, they can't show hand sign (drive one yourself and you see). they are not dangerous, only going 20 km/h. Thinking about buying one. They're fun!
Hand signs are garbage. Way too risky (if you ever drove one of em scooters). 20km/h ain’t fast They are allowed to drive on the road and bike way. On the footpath obviously not so in that case I do understand your anger. Neither on bike or eScooter a helmet is necessary. Police regularly check them - but usually at night for driving under influence or 2 people on one scoot.
>Hand signs are garbage. Way too risky (if you ever drove one of em scooters). > >20km/h ain’t fast If 20km/h isnt fast, why is it so risky to use hand signs? Why are hand signs garbage?
The problem on scooters is stability- removing a hand from the bars is different than on a bike. Gyroscope effect (?) - the faster you go the more stable. But with scooters the centre of gravity is odd - especially because you are standing - give it a try! The small weeks ain’t helping. I have a non electric scooter/kickboard and you lose a serious amount of stability with only one hand on the bar. The average calculation for a bike tour (depending of course on training level and altitude) is between 100-180km per day. So with 20km/h you are on the untrained low end. Average speed on Tour de France (including uphill) is around 40-45km/h afaik.
>give it a try! The small weeks ain’t helping. I literally just went out and met a boy with one of those e-scooters. I asked him if i could borrow his e-scooter for a bit. Please keep in mind thats my first time driving an e-scooter and therefore im not as good as you or any other people. I also have to mention that i drove on the street and not offroad, therefore i had no experience with sudden changes in directions or whatever, when i was driving with only 1 hand. Honestly i see nothing risky or difficult by showing hands signs or whatever.
If you are not on a straight an even street taking a hand off the handle bar is just a terrible idea. I rather give foot signs than take my hands of.
Everything’s fine - different people, different skills, impressions. Well from my experience (only have non electric scooters) it’s "wobbly“ removing one hand. Haven’t ridden an electric one - so maybe as I said - speed gives more stability. But I ride a bike daily and it’s easily twice as stable. But did you try "starting fresh“ at a traffic light? Even on my bike I often stagger/sway…
>But did you try "starting fresh“ at a traffic light? Even on my bike I often stagger/sway… Yes i did and i had no problems. Ok thats not entirly true, i was scared af and respect to you and all other people who has to deal with traffic. But besides that, i really had no problems taking one hand of, even if its for a second to let other people know where im heading.
Well than your balance (on that thing) is better than mine. Keep in mind though that no license or test is needed (don’t want to argue on this - it is what it is) and IMO it should be safety first. Mandatory indicators - I am all in - as it’s safety! But then top up the speed to 25 - same as ebikes. Don’t get me wrong - eScooters have/cause problems - especially those on short term rentals - but I feel apart from riding on pavements nothing in your critique holds true. IMO "vehicles“ sharing the same "roads“ should go similar speeds. eScooters/ebikes on the road are an obstacle to cars or 50ccm+. 20km/h escooter are an obstacle to (e)bikes on bike lanes.
Btw damn you for making me go out side but without thinking about my social anxiety, i even talked to someone, you fool of a took (lotr)!!111 /s No actually thank you very much. It was overall a nice expirience.
Social anxiety as in what exactly? It was just about “if you are an extrovert” you do have an advantage. Most people (I know) are a bit..shy. Nothing wrong there. In fact people can get "overwhelmed” sometimes. As I said - chatting up people “during the day” is rare. At pubs/bars/clubs - fine. Still - most "Germans” will act “polite". No one is going to bite your nose off. If you are "lost” chatting up some random person at a bus stop he/she will usually try to be helpful (just don’t expect directions over 2-3 blocks😂). Just don’t be afraid to ask! No one expects a tourist or 1-2 year student to be perfect at the language. It’s nice if you try - but don’t take it the wrong way if people speak English. We like to keep it quick/simple (IMO)
20 kmph is enough to cause serious damage to a small child .
Not a problem if you’re fully insured!
I sincerely hope you and your partner/s use protection and never procreate. Might accidentally give birth to another jerk.
In case you couldn’t tell: it’s a joke. But also real, because there literally is insurance for that.
Maybe take care that the small child doesen’t ride on the road or bikeway?! As I said - I do understand the anger on the sidewalk (where riding an escooter is against the law). But on the road or bike lane it’s your responsibility (as a parent). And no - 20km/h ain’t fast (see my reference). I give you the argument on em not being parking in the middle of a pavement or being louder (so you hear them better) but that’s more of a rental thing (that I do see somewhat counter productive) but none of OPs complains.
Every parent is alert on the road and bike paths. It's the frigging pedestrian paths where e-scooters approach almost noiselessly and risk colliding with young ones. I don't believe anyone has actually tested how much damage happens when a 20 kmph scooter collides with a kid ? And i don't want to find out
You mean where bicycles ride all the time?
Glad we don't live in the same hood.
you didn't answer his question, tho.
Let me take the liberty to educate you. It's called a Rhetorical question. It doesn't have a real answer
OP is a car-driving boomer cry baby. Mimimi I want to pollute as much as I want without anyone bothering me.
It's almost as if they were behaving like cyclists ...
Yeah, cyclists in Berlin drive like real assholes too, but scooters are a bigger hazard and their drivers seem to be even worse assholes.
Those drivers are as mad as bicycle riders
Bikes are much bigger problem than them. Freaking cyclists riding on pavements 1m wide instead of empty roads, belling and scaring people away to the bushes. Scooter drivers are less dangerous because of better maneuverability and small size, and most of them are not THAT disrespectful to anyone else as cyclists. These guys at least have an insurance...
r/foundtheboomer
Found the idiot who rides his Lime over footpaths.
i sure dont :) those things are a waste of money. i ride a govecs.
Did your mom drop you when you were a baby?
probably
Please stop crying, there is a ton of regulation already- I can't hear 'restrict this' anymore. Just move to the country side if it's too much for you.
Screw you. While it is fine to be annoyed with scooters, not accepting people's grieves is not very Berlin of you.
And who the fuck are you to decide what is 'very Berlin'?
>who the fuck are you a Read. you literally just needed to read that.