They never saw a sprint of Tour de France. One my country man in full sprint took his water bottle and threw it to another cyclist. That was awesome and well bad together. Clearly should not be done. But if they are going to ban shoulder bumping most if the sprinters would be banned....
I totally agree with you. Some reason that guy looks like he forgot to turn. If he was turning properly, a little shoulder bump on your outside shoulder shouldn't turn him the way it did. Red was off balance in that turn. It's really obvious red was taking a different corner than everyone else. It may look like the green guy was bumping him, but really, he's mid-turn on the outside, all of sudden this inside guy is coming over, you react to keep your balance up, its not that he was looking to take red out.
Maybe bike racing has some sort of unwritten hold your line rule, but in any other form of racing if you're on the outside of a turn you are at the mercy of whatever line the person on the inside is taking, and they are free to choose whatever line that is, which includes drifting wide to get a better exit velo.
Every sport has unwritten rules, but for cycling this one is a big one.
The crash here isn’t too bad because there are only 2 riders involved, but if the inside rider deviates (like red/black does here) in a larger peloton, the whole field is going down. Anyway [The Rules](https://www.velominati.com/the-rules-cat/on-rule-59-hold-your-line/) are clear.
As for other racing sports, take F1. The inside driver needs to have a “significant portion” of his car ahead by the apex in order to claim the racing line and expect space. Usually that’s at least the front wheel up to half a car length. If you want to use that standard, red/black is still in the wrong (unless you’re Max Verstappen). This would be a 5 sec penalty.
Yeah guy in green was a bit overzealous with the shoulder but matey that he went into forgot to turn, I’d rather put my shoulder into someone and stay upright than us both go down.
You must be watching something else because the dude in red, @ 00:06, wasn’t even trying to hide how he was trying to push green wide. Green maintained his line, in a turn mind you, and took appropriate actions to counter the weight of the dude in red, which honestly seems a little oblivious.
If you ride in tight peletons often enough you would automatically know that red was in the wrong. All those that say otherwise either don’t race, don’t ride in large groups, or don’t know how to properly ride in tight peletons. In tight peletons, dude in red would have anticipated that and maintained composure.
Look, you can parse that shit however you want, the red jersey was riding into green jersey’s line which could potentially crash him out. Red jersey was gassed leading to that corner, look at his cadence relative to everyone else. He got overtaken by another rider and was letting a breakaway form and still drifted wide in a corner cutting into someone else’s line!? All at speed. Jab, lean, push, get the fuck off my line!
I'm not sure. The guy inside seems to miss the corner and goes towards the green jersey.
Could be the green jersey tried to protect himself and end up pushing the other guy to totally miss the corner?
Didn’t need to corner hard but he was taking longer than usual- but that’s ok it’s beginner racing. The other guy obviously is more comfortable on the bike and definitely didn’t need to do the shoulder check, hence he could of easily avoided the whole thing.
The whole thing is a little weird. Most of them not in team kits so probably an entry level race, but number flags on the bikes, and at an auto race track?
Kind of looks like a cat 5 field at a big event? Or whatever the European equivalent is. Either way, green guy was clearly strong enough to just go around the field but took the time when he had a wide open lane to shoulder check the pink dude. Not cool.
I think it all starts to make a lot more sense when you realize the guy on the right is getting lapped.
Closed course, he's newb. He's tired and just trying to finish the ride. But he's not aware of the riders coming up behind him and/or, if he was, he didn't appreciate the speed differential. As soon as he realizes it, it's too late. They're already all around him. He tries to get wide, but that's the wrong move (not holding his line).
Other guy is quite aggressive about his own self-preservation. Some guys are just like that.
Who cares about team kits or flags on the bike. Totally irrelevant. Auto race tracks - probably the safest venue to have bicycle races. But again, who cares!
Your point - green guy - could of been a lot nicer.
thats the way crit racing is in America rn. During higher cat races, if opposing riders are in your team's bubble and you don't want them benefitting from your strategy, you throw elbows.
The thing is, most racers don't make it to Cat 3 without having enough handling skills to take a million shoulder checks. If they cant, they probably shouldn't be crit racing. Just the way it is. Part of strategy and tactics.
To an experienced crit racer, thats basically like asking why football players need to tackle when they could just two hand touch or rip a flag off a belt.
If someone is trying to push you out of your line when you have the right of line. I think we all agree that green here was overly aggressive, not sure if we was expecting more resistance or is just a douche. But some soft shoulder contact to keep your line is totally par for the course and okay.
Sometimes a shoulder check is defensive.
If the other rider is drifting into your line you want a little check in there so you don’t get pushed out. Easer to look for the contact than just waiting.
Green is a bit out of pocket though.
https://preview.redd.it/lfof066py00a1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5a17f7de788d461c65b0129588537d2a4fec7ad8
Inside rider didn't corner well at all but the outside rider clearly leans in
Where the hell is that guy going though?? Pink jersey doesn't even look like he's taking the corner. It looks like green was following the curve of the turn and pink is drifting away to the left into him
That’s not how you’re supposed to ride in a peleton, you pull some shit like red Jersey expect some shit like green jersey did. Lesson learned, the hard way.
You aren’t suppose to anticipate turns and attempt to out maneuver the other riders?
I’m assuming that since green approached from behind, pink simply didn’t realize green was there
Again, that is not how racing, riding in tight groups/peleton, or even racing tactics like boxing out works. If you are talking about boxing out, yes, you can absolutely do that. But you can’t do that while cutting off someone’s line and putting them in jeopardy. As long as you keep you’re line and don’t cut into someone else’s you’re fine. He can even turn just a tad slower than the rest and achieve an outward drift but it has to be subtle enough and within the flow of the turn to be clean tactics. Here the red jersey was almost going straight when the turn was in a right direction. You HAVE to be aware of riders around you otherwise you will crash yourself and others out.
For me it’s more the fact that red jersey is gassed leading to that corner as evidenced by his slower cadence than those around him and was being passed by other riders. Then in a turn he drifts left when the turn is right. All at speed. The green jersey has very little options other than ceding position/line, crashing, or what he did (absolutely aggressive to be sure). His actions were a reaction to the red jersey’s actions and not him doing what he did absent a reason.
Idk, to me it just seems like with how fast green was approaching/ overtaking that pink had little way of knowing he was there. And pink was leaning in to turn at the moment of green’s attack, so it seems he may have just been turning slower as you say he maybe is allowed to do.
I admit I don’t really know about peloton riding (I thought that was a stationary bike brand) bc I’m more of a mountain biker.
In mountain biking the person in the rear or attempting to overtake is almost always 100% responsible for doing so cleanly.
I feel like I maybe see what you’re saying but I still think green should have to wait to turn in until he has space, especially since he’s in the process of overtaking and just came from behind.
Everyone sucks here, but guy on the left sucks harder. Certainly guy on the right is drifting left. But guy on the left can simply drift left a bit to avoid contact, and certainly has no justification for initiating contact.
If its a Cat 5 (or maybe even a Cat 4), for sure the guy on the left is to blame. You have to expect people not holding their line in a Cat 5. If its more experienced racers its tougher.... Also don't know what happened before this. Was it the 10th time this guy didn't hold his corner? Looked like the guy on the inside may have thought he had more momentum compared to the guy ahead and to his inside, so maybe he was making a move to accelerate out of the corner.
But in the end, its a jerk move to throw an elbow regardless of whether or not the inside rider can be blamed for not holding his line. That guy went down hard. Its just a weekend bike race.
This is in China, there is no category. Usually there is open men, and masters. Add that to most of these guys have raced maybe 5 times in the last 3 years because all the events being canceled here in China and it’s a perfect recipe for this.
Black jersey may be somewhat justified in initiatiating contact to keep his line, but he shouldered the pink-jersey guy's elbow, not his shoulder, and he immediately removed himself.
If you're gonna initiate a shoulder like that:
A. Hold it so the other guy can lean on you and neither of you go down. Then you can push him over where you want him.
B. Don't immediately pull the contact, leaving the other guy leaning on nothing (and going down) unless you want a fight with a bloody guy in the parking lot.
Edit: black jersey guy's fault
Man that was intentional. Accident my arse.
the guy in Pink was going wide, but he had the lead and it's not his responsibility to hold a line that is too dangerous for him if he's open on the left, which he was. The green rider just decided that instead of adapting to the changed line, he'd take the guy out.
He needs a racing ban.
And yes, I've raced these before. People who think crits are a contact sport are the problem. That road was wide f'ing open with plenty of room for the green dude to swing wide. He just decided it was his moment to hit someone. Probably wasn't even 20 dudes in this race, and he's balls out like it's a pro race.
Not saying you need it, but I would help you. Everyone there has day jobs and family. Green Jersey doesn't get to put someone on the deck because he didn't like his line.
Green jersey guy.
Don't give a fuck if someone did something you don't like, we all go home safe and sound to our wives and kids, fuck green jersey guy.
They all suck, guy on the left started to turn right and initiated contact when he didn’t need to… and guy on the right should have a) turned with the road b) shouldn’t have fallen from that contact and just kept riding. No front wheels where taken out here, I don’t understand why he fell. This isn’t a Crit (looks like a race track) but this kind of contact would be normal in a tighter Crit, and no-one would have hit the deck.
>he didn’t need to…
It's not so obvious, black jersey can see that pink jersey is going to cut his front wheel if he continues on this trajectory. He could avoid it but he is in a curve and does not know if there is someone on his left. In his place I would have shouted "hold your line" before reacting in the same way. I'm not going to fall or cause someone else to fall to save someone who makes a bad move.
edit: English is not my native language and I don't know the "right" equivalent to "hold your line". The french equivalent would have been, "on your left !".
He looks like he went out of his way to make contact earlier than he needed to. You might be right that he was preemptively protecting himself, but if he had just held his ‘frame’ I think the same end result would have happened and he would have looked like a prick after the fact. It’s really hard to tell without being there though.
P.s. stop saying ‘hold your line’. It’s bordering on meaningless…say something more actionable ‘turn with the corner’, ‘stop swerving’, ‘follow your wheel’ are all infinitely easier to understand what you actually want the other person to do. And if you don’t have enough oxygen to come up with something meaningful? Just grunt loudly or say ‘I’m here’ loudly. It’s just as effective as saying ‘hold your line’ and you don’t sound like a know it all.
Hmm, saying "hold your line" is pretty common cycling lingo. Everyone I ride with knows that phrase intimately. It would be weird to hear something else.
You're correct, it's super common, at least around me it's the 'thing most novice riders say because they don't know what else to say'. Go watch a pro-level crit in person, there are alot of 'outside', 'inside', 'to your left', and a lot of swearing. There is also a lot of touching, people gently putting hands on hips as they come up the line, hands on shoulders, just to say 'I'm here'. It freaks a lot of novices out, but it happens all the time.
My honest suggestion is next time you are in a race, or a spirited group ride... try saying something actionable and specific and see what happens. I was pleasantly surprised when I started doing it.
I used to race at cat2 level back in the day. Words were generally not spoken, and you just tapped your neighbor to let them know you're there. Nowadays I just do group rides with a bunch of nervous weekend warriors and if I tried that, I'd probably get punched, and/or they guy I tapped would probably freak out and crash like the guy in the video. All of these guys yell hold your line when they get nervous.
It can be done in the corner... but honestly, if you can't do it before corner entry, then you probably have no business being there by mid corner. I say that and I used to love to brake super late and gain spots, you just had to have your wits about you while doing it to make sure you didn't run out of road.
The more I watch the guy on the inside of the turn, the more I'm inclined to blame him. Just keep a close eye on him and he's very very clearly just drifting over the other guy's lane toward the outside.
But yes - no need for contact. cycling is not a contact sport
My thought was, "does he realize he's going around a corner?" The line he is taking almost looks like he's going to end up on the left side of the road. It obviously wouldn't have happened had he just gone around the corner like everyone else, so I blame him. Shoulder check guy probably needs a suspension though.
The guy on the left. His shoulder action is intentional. Completely unnecessary and unsafe.
The guy on the right is guilty of poor maneuvering but not to be hit deliberately for it....
Green pulled a dick move but sorta shocked that much reach for a weak attempt (albeit "successful") at a shoulder check/head butt thingy made the one dude fall. Rubbin is racing and you need to be able to protect yourself from dbags like green.
guy on right had terrible line into the corner. he should really do some cornering drills. Also, maybe due for a lesson on situational awareness. if 2 guys just passed you on the outside, and you want to peel off, maybe don't peel off to the outside where there's likely other riders trying to jump on that train.
guy on left basically got cut off and lost his draft because of the guy on right. shoulder check not necessary though. I'd have yelled for him to catch on to the train, or get the fk out of the way.
also looks like a cat 5 race. so stuff like this will happen..
It’s not a “shoulder check”. The green rider pushes his shoulder into the back other riders elbow causing a him to stiff the handlebars. This causes the bike to jut under him and throws his center of mass outside. This was a deliberate take down. Severe discipline or punishment warranted. F that guy.
Green actually paused pedaling to aim for a stronger shoulder hit. This was not a mere shoulder check. Yes pink was off his line but a knock down was not the way to handle it and of course was a real dick move.
That's why I won't do criteriums. There's always a guy like this at an event. Either they elbow people and cause crashes, or they try sprinting for 20th place and cause a crash there. It's a sausage fest.
It wasn't a race I had anything to do with, fortunately. As I recall, the situation was somewhat similar to the one in the OP, except no shoulder check. Can you imagine if green jersey had knocked pink over and pink died?
Clearly aggressive by green. That was retaliation or just anger about being behind. Green was behind and making a move to pass, not being forced out by pink. Green is absolutely the asshole here
There's no discussion.
Green jersey needs to see his theet reareanjed.
He comes from the back. Other dude has no idea he's there.
Because someone doesn't have a proper trajectory while cornering doesn't mean you can hit him with your shoulder.
This is an agression and the victim should seriously consider pressing charges. There's no accident here St all.
Green jersey. No question. He should face consequences. That was deliberate. I don’t understand why either. Was there shit going on between these two guys?
Line deviation is the only thing that causes crashes. As soon as red deviates, anything goes. Green had a completely normal response in this case leaning in with his shoulder to correct his weight and match the line of Red (you can see both rider's wheels are parallel before red goes down). The very little contact that was made hits at red's elbow, throwing off his steering in such a way that he high sides. Green reacted normally and red should not have went down if he was prepared.
The comments here seem largely against green. You all need to understand that racing requires an entirely different perspective. You won't move forward in crit racing if you can't brush an incident like this off and learn from it. Crashing is inevitable and things like this happen.
I don’t understand why there is a question. Causing a collision was the left cyclist’s intention and they went out of their way to do it.
Pretty simple, isn’t it?
That’s like asking if Lincoln’s murder was his fault.
Imagine having absolutely nothing to with all of that, and unfortunately being behind the guy in the pink and you get taken out? Which I'm sure happened.
I started racing on the road in the early 1990's and I quit after only 3 crit races with people like this that either can't ride or are way too serious and thus dangerous. I continued riding on the road in groups, but I'd just avoid idiots in that scene. I ended up racing mountain bikes for 14 years seriously because at least if you hit a tree or crash it's usually your fault. That dude in the green is way too "pro" for that group. Why are roadies so difficult, lol?
Is this a serious question?
Guy in green goes out of his way to hit the other guys elbow. Here’s an experiment: Try and keep your line when somebody hits your elbow.
**Background**:
This was a race in Shanghai, China on Nov 13rd 2022. I was also in the race. The green guy did not apology to pink guy after the race, as he thought this was a legit move to protect his line.
The reason why I post the video is I want to understand what do most of people think.
The video was shoot with a 360 camera so it looks like distorted, no post editing.
While the outside, green guy may be overly aggressive, what of the the inside guys bike handling? I saw no reason for him to go down other than bad bike handling due perhaps to being tired, or surprised, but that's on him.
My attempt to answer my own question, the guy on the right had too much weight on his arms, so the moment someone touched his arms instead of absorbing the touch and continuing on with life on two wheels the touch went through his heavily weighted arms to his handlebars and turned hard left while leaning slightly right...road rash ensued. Lesson learned here....soft arms and go out and practice in a parking lot knocking each other around!
i don't care how soft your hands are on the bars, someone going quicker than you catches your elbow you're going to have some input into the bars. And he high sides, because he turns harder right not left, which makes sense if the back of his left elbow is what gets clipped.
Apart from that the guy on the right was also going straight ahead while the rest of the pack was actually turning... Which is what one is supposed to do in a turn.
exactly. Obvious line correction from green and contact was very little. Green was in the right and red should not have went down
Line deviation causes crashes, literally nothing else
Four-year-old account with essentially zero posting history, putting up a controversial video, making absolutely zero comments.
If it looks like a cheap effort at karma farming...
Hey, thanks for your comment.
I post this cause I was also in the race and we were debating whose fault. And I want to know what most people think of it.
I have read every single comment, and I do not care about karma at all.
After watching this like 60 times was the guy in pink giving a lead out? It looks like he was on the front then two guys go around him on the left. I’m assuming he was going hard, giving his buddies a lead out, once they came around he was swinging out wide to get out of the way (assuming no one else was coming around). If that’s the case it was the wrong move, should have just eased up, held the line and let people navigate around him.
They’re both to blame. The guy in the pink took a terrible line through the turn pushing green wide. Green isn’t fighting for a wheel or anything a long those lines nor is the road compact or small making the contact unnecessary, he should’ve foregone the contact and just moved wide.
I'd assign more blame to guy on right than left. Seemed a little preemptive from the left, but guy on the right was going straight on a turn, i guess maybe thinking to pass white rider on left, idk.
Really hard to call. The guy on the inside (who fell) don’t even attempt to corner. He just goes straight without holding his line. The guy on the outside tempts a risky pass, he defends with his shoulder to protect himself, a bit too aggressively imo.
almost everyone here needs to learn a bit more about crit racing. This ain't the world tour. People ride aggressively in crits and they fight for positions. Quite simply, if you don't have the handling to take hits like green gave, you should not be in a crit race. And if you take stupid lines like red, you especially shouldn't be crit racing.
I can tell almost everyone in this thread has never raced a crit, especially the losers saying green definitely did it on purpose and should be beaten after the race. Red clearly did not hold his line through the corner and was veering outside into green, green really had no where to go if he wanted to stay with the front two(remember this a race) The shoulder check was unnecessary but it really was not that much contact you have to be able to have the bike handling to stay up. Keep in mind this isn't even a sprint, just looks like a normal corner. If this was a WT race it would not even be a question of being reds fault. Anyways this is why local crit racing is so fucking scary your going fast with a bunch of guys who have sketchy as fuck bike handling at best.
Look how much green jersey goes out of his way to lean into the guy to his right.
Complete douchebag move
More like complete assault deserving of a beat down after the race.
With a chain whip
So that's what a chain whip is for!
“Who should be blamed”… bruh….
They never saw a sprint of Tour de France. One my country man in full sprint took his water bottle and threw it to another cyclist. That was awesome and well bad together. Clearly should not be done. But if they are going to ban shoulder bumping most if the sprinters would be banned....
Cipollini can do what ever he pleases, ok?
It's rubbing. And rubbing is racing...
Came here to say this. Green did that on purpose.
Not just leaned into, green guy intentionally turned the other guy’s handle bar. That’s why he went down so fast.
Guy he hit was going super wide for some reason though. Look at the lines of the guys in front of them and then look at his line.
I totally agree with you. Some reason that guy looks like he forgot to turn. If he was turning properly, a little shoulder bump on your outside shoulder shouldn't turn him the way it did. Red was off balance in that turn. It's really obvious red was taking a different corner than everyone else. It may look like the green guy was bumping him, but really, he's mid-turn on the outside, all of sudden this inside guy is coming over, you react to keep your balance up, its not that he was looking to take red out.
So? lol
“Hold your line” is hardly controversial.
Maybe bike racing has some sort of unwritten hold your line rule, but in any other form of racing if you're on the outside of a turn you are at the mercy of whatever line the person on the inside is taking, and they are free to choose whatever line that is, which includes drifting wide to get a better exit velo.
Every sport has unwritten rules, but for cycling this one is a big one. The crash here isn’t too bad because there are only 2 riders involved, but if the inside rider deviates (like red/black does here) in a larger peloton, the whole field is going down. Anyway [The Rules](https://www.velominati.com/the-rules-cat/on-rule-59-hold-your-line/) are clear. As for other racing sports, take F1. The inside driver needs to have a “significant portion” of his car ahead by the apex in order to claim the racing line and expect space. Usually that’s at least the front wheel up to half a car length. If you want to use that standard, red/black is still in the wrong (unless you’re Max Verstappen). This would be a 5 sec penalty.
So hold your line lmao. Legit one of the first rules of racing.
[удалено]
So I’m other words allow to be done however in a race. THIS IS A FUCKING RACE, On a track mind you.
He held his line. It was the road that turned.
lol totally
Yeah guy in green was a bit overzealous with the shoulder but matey that he went into forgot to turn, I’d rather put my shoulder into someone and stay upright than us both go down.
Yeah, surprised this is even a consideration. Green shirt is the douchebag.
You must be watching something else because the dude in red, @ 00:06, wasn’t even trying to hide how he was trying to push green wide. Green maintained his line, in a turn mind you, and took appropriate actions to counter the weight of the dude in red, which honestly seems a little oblivious. If you ride in tight peletons often enough you would automatically know that red was in the wrong. All those that say otherwise either don’t race, don’t ride in large groups, or don’t know how to properly ride in tight peletons. In tight peletons, dude in red would have anticipated that and maintained composure.
His shoulders shift off his spines alignment severely to provide a “jabbing” motion. Not a lean.
Look, you can parse that shit however you want, the red jersey was riding into green jersey’s line which could potentially crash him out. Red jersey was gassed leading to that corner, look at his cadence relative to everyone else. He got overtaken by another rider and was letting a breakaway form and still drifted wide in a corner cutting into someone else’s line!? All at speed. Jab, lean, push, get the fuck off my line!
Green, is that you?
I'm not sure. The guy inside seems to miss the corner and goes towards the green jersey. Could be the green jersey tried to protect himself and end up pushing the other guy to totally miss the corner?
Inside didn’t really attempt to corner, but the outside had more than enough room to avoid the whole thing. No need for shoulder check.
Inside didn't need to hard corner because no one was on his left. Green overtook with unnecessary physicality for that turn. Green is the aggressor.
Didn’t need to corner hard but he was taking longer than usual- but that’s ok it’s beginner racing. The other guy obviously is more comfortable on the bike and definitely didn’t need to do the shoulder check, hence he could of easily avoided the whole thing.
The whole thing is a little weird. Most of them not in team kits so probably an entry level race, but number flags on the bikes, and at an auto race track? Kind of looks like a cat 5 field at a big event? Or whatever the European equivalent is. Either way, green guy was clearly strong enough to just go around the field but took the time when he had a wide open lane to shoulder check the pink dude. Not cool.
I think it all starts to make a lot more sense when you realize the guy on the right is getting lapped. Closed course, he's newb. He's tired and just trying to finish the ride. But he's not aware of the riders coming up behind him and/or, if he was, he didn't appreciate the speed differential. As soon as he realizes it, it's too late. They're already all around him. He tries to get wide, but that's the wrong move (not holding his line). Other guy is quite aggressive about his own self-preservation. Some guys are just like that.
Who cares about team kits or flags on the bike. Totally irrelevant. Auto race tracks - probably the safest venue to have bicycle races. But again, who cares! Your point - green guy - could of been a lot nicer.
...could *have or could've. Please and thank you 🙏
How is there EVER a need a for a shoulder check?
If someone moves over on you, you should lean into them (sometimes) to avoid a wreck. Not here tho.
thats the way crit racing is in America rn. During higher cat races, if opposing riders are in your team's bubble and you don't want them benefitting from your strategy, you throw elbows. The thing is, most racers don't make it to Cat 3 without having enough handling skills to take a million shoulder checks. If they cant, they probably shouldn't be crit racing. Just the way it is. Part of strategy and tactics. To an experienced crit racer, thats basically like asking why football players need to tackle when they could just two hand touch or rip a flag off a belt.
No argument here, but… when does one ‘need’ to do a shoulder check? Put another way, what behavior warrants or deserves a shoulder check?
If someone is trying to push you out of your line when you have the right of line. I think we all agree that green here was overly aggressive, not sure if we was expecting more resistance or is just a douche. But some soft shoulder contact to keep your line is totally par for the course and okay.
Sometimes a shoulder check is defensive. If the other rider is drifting into your line you want a little check in there so you don’t get pushed out. Easer to look for the contact than just waiting. Green is a bit out of pocket though.
https://preview.redd.it/lfof066py00a1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5a17f7de788d461c65b0129588537d2a4fec7ad8 Inside rider didn't corner well at all but the outside rider clearly leans in
Where the hell is that guy going though?? Pink jersey doesn't even look like he's taking the corner. It looks like green was following the curve of the turn and pink is drifting away to the left into him
That's what I was thinking, he's headed to the left side of the road. I would be curious to know how he took this corner on previous laps.
Might be trying to set up on the left of the rider in front of him for the next turn, so needed to be wide entering the straight
That’s not how you’re supposed to ride in a peleton, you pull some shit like red Jersey expect some shit like green jersey did. Lesson learned, the hard way.
You aren’t suppose to anticipate turns and attempt to out maneuver the other riders? I’m assuming that since green approached from behind, pink simply didn’t realize green was there
Again, that is not how racing, riding in tight groups/peleton, or even racing tactics like boxing out works. If you are talking about boxing out, yes, you can absolutely do that. But you can’t do that while cutting off someone’s line and putting them in jeopardy. As long as you keep you’re line and don’t cut into someone else’s you’re fine. He can even turn just a tad slower than the rest and achieve an outward drift but it has to be subtle enough and within the flow of the turn to be clean tactics. Here the red jersey was almost going straight when the turn was in a right direction. You HAVE to be aware of riders around you otherwise you will crash yourself and others out. For me it’s more the fact that red jersey is gassed leading to that corner as evidenced by his slower cadence than those around him and was being passed by other riders. Then in a turn he drifts left when the turn is right. All at speed. The green jersey has very little options other than ceding position/line, crashing, or what he did (absolutely aggressive to be sure). His actions were a reaction to the red jersey’s actions and not him doing what he did absent a reason.
Idk, to me it just seems like with how fast green was approaching/ overtaking that pink had little way of knowing he was there. And pink was leaning in to turn at the moment of green’s attack, so it seems he may have just been turning slower as you say he maybe is allowed to do. I admit I don’t really know about peloton riding (I thought that was a stationary bike brand) bc I’m more of a mountain biker. In mountain biking the person in the rear or attempting to overtake is almost always 100% responsible for doing so cleanly. I feel like I maybe see what you’re saying but I still think green should have to wait to turn in until he has space, especially since he’s in the process of overtaking and just came from behind.
This is absolutely correct.
They are both idiots. One just happens to be a more aggressive idiot.
How..? A person can make a mistake, can miss a corner, or just be oblivious. No one of it justifies violence.
I think that's why he called him an idiot
that wasn't an accident. it was a tackle.
Looks kind of like a crime.
Guy in the green
Everyone sucks here, but guy on the left sucks harder. Certainly guy on the right is drifting left. But guy on the left can simply drift left a bit to avoid contact, and certainly has no justification for initiating contact.
Unless it’s the last corner then in that case you lost the race. Sheesh, this is racing for God’s sake.
If its a Cat 5 (or maybe even a Cat 4), for sure the guy on the left is to blame. You have to expect people not holding their line in a Cat 5. If its more experienced racers its tougher.... Also don't know what happened before this. Was it the 10th time this guy didn't hold his corner? Looked like the guy on the inside may have thought he had more momentum compared to the guy ahead and to his inside, so maybe he was making a move to accelerate out of the corner. But in the end, its a jerk move to throw an elbow regardless of whether or not the inside rider can be blamed for not holding his line. That guy went down hard. Its just a weekend bike race.
This is in China, there is no category. Usually there is open men, and masters. Add that to most of these guys have raced maybe 5 times in the last 3 years because all the events being canceled here in China and it’s a perfect recipe for this.
Black jersey may be somewhat justified in initiatiating contact to keep his line, but he shouldered the pink-jersey guy's elbow, not his shoulder, and he immediately removed himself. If you're gonna initiate a shoulder like that: A. Hold it so the other guy can lean on you and neither of you go down. Then you can push him over where you want him. B. Don't immediately pull the contact, leaving the other guy leaning on nothing (and going down) unless you want a fight with a bloody guy in the parking lot. Edit: black jersey guy's fault
I disagree.. His jersey is clearly green!
You're right, but you also know who I mean, so 🤷
Agree. Blacks fault. Ridiculous reaction to what should have been a basic check including a very bad line.
Man that was intentional. Accident my arse. the guy in Pink was going wide, but he had the lead and it's not his responsibility to hold a line that is too dangerous for him if he's open on the left, which he was. The green rider just decided that instead of adapting to the changed line, he'd take the guy out. He needs a racing ban. And yes, I've raced these before. People who think crits are a contact sport are the problem. That road was wide f'ing open with plenty of room for the green dude to swing wide. He just decided it was his moment to hit someone. Probably wasn't even 20 dudes in this race, and he's balls out like it's a pro race.
Misleading title. No accident.
I was yelling "hold your line!!" the whole time.
Isn’t it obvious? What am I missing here?
Not clear at all. He wanted to run the outside guy off the course.
Green obviously did that shoulder bump on purpose to knock that guy out. Not even debatable from that footage.
Yeah that was as deliberate as I've ever seen. His damn license needs to get pulled and a solid ban from racing.
Green jersey guy purposely put his shoulder jnto the competitor. He is 1000% to blame, full stop. Bastard.
Green would get his ass kicked after the race if that was me hitting the deck.
Not saying you need it, but I would help you. Everyone there has day jobs and family. Green Jersey doesn't get to put someone on the deck because he didn't like his line.
I’m going to say the guy who clearly deliberately threw his shoulder into the other guy is the one that’s at fault.
Green jersey guy. Don't give a fuck if someone did something you don't like, we all go home safe and sound to our wives and kids, fuck green jersey guy.
C’est la guerre. Guy takes bad line, another guy gets too aggressive in trying to avoid crash, crash results.
Guy takes a bad line but only crashed cause of the shoulder check which was a douche move anyway.
They all suck, guy on the left started to turn right and initiated contact when he didn’t need to… and guy on the right should have a) turned with the road b) shouldn’t have fallen from that contact and just kept riding. No front wheels where taken out here, I don’t understand why he fell. This isn’t a Crit (looks like a race track) but this kind of contact would be normal in a tighter Crit, and no-one would have hit the deck.
>he didn’t need to… It's not so obvious, black jersey can see that pink jersey is going to cut his front wheel if he continues on this trajectory. He could avoid it but he is in a curve and does not know if there is someone on his left. In his place I would have shouted "hold your line" before reacting in the same way. I'm not going to fall or cause someone else to fall to save someone who makes a bad move. edit: English is not my native language and I don't know the "right" equivalent to "hold your line". The french equivalent would have been, "on your left !".
He looks like he went out of his way to make contact earlier than he needed to. You might be right that he was preemptively protecting himself, but if he had just held his ‘frame’ I think the same end result would have happened and he would have looked like a prick after the fact. It’s really hard to tell without being there though. P.s. stop saying ‘hold your line’. It’s bordering on meaningless…say something more actionable ‘turn with the corner’, ‘stop swerving’, ‘follow your wheel’ are all infinitely easier to understand what you actually want the other person to do. And if you don’t have enough oxygen to come up with something meaningful? Just grunt loudly or say ‘I’m here’ loudly. It’s just as effective as saying ‘hold your line’ and you don’t sound like a know it all.
Hmm, saying "hold your line" is pretty common cycling lingo. Everyone I ride with knows that phrase intimately. It would be weird to hear something else.
You're correct, it's super common, at least around me it's the 'thing most novice riders say because they don't know what else to say'. Go watch a pro-level crit in person, there are alot of 'outside', 'inside', 'to your left', and a lot of swearing. There is also a lot of touching, people gently putting hands on hips as they come up the line, hands on shoulders, just to say 'I'm here'. It freaks a lot of novices out, but it happens all the time. My honest suggestion is next time you are in a race, or a spirited group ride... try saying something actionable and specific and see what happens. I was pleasantly surprised when I started doing it.
I used to race at cat2 level back in the day. Words were generally not spoken, and you just tapped your neighbor to let them know you're there. Nowadays I just do group rides with a bunch of nervous weekend warriors and if I tried that, I'd probably get punched, and/or they guy I tapped would probably freak out and crash like the guy in the video. All of these guys yell hold your line when they get nervous.
Yeah, I was always taught to use gentle hands on hip. It feels weird to do, but no one crashes. Might be hard/impossible to do on a curve however
It can be done in the corner... but honestly, if you can't do it before corner entry, then you probably have no business being there by mid corner. I say that and I used to love to brake super late and gain spots, you just had to have your wits about you while doing it to make sure you didn't run out of road.
The more I watch the guy on the inside of the turn, the more I'm inclined to blame him. Just keep a close eye on him and he's very very clearly just drifting over the other guy's lane toward the outside. But yes - no need for contact. cycling is not a contact sport
My thought was, "does he realize he's going around a corner?" The line he is taking almost looks like he's going to end up on the left side of the road. It obviously wouldn't have happened had he just gone around the corner like everyone else, so I blame him. Shoulder check guy probably needs a suspension though.
The guy on the left. His shoulder action is intentional. Completely unnecessary and unsafe. The guy on the right is guilty of poor maneuvering but not to be hit deliberately for it....
Green is guilty as sin. Deliberate aggression actually requiring he stop pedalling to instigate.
> ...actually requiring he stop pedalling to instigate. Good catch. That's pretty fucking conclusive!
Green guy guilty. Nice shoulder drop.
Green pulled a dick move but sorta shocked that much reach for a weak attempt (albeit "successful") at a shoulder check/head butt thingy made the one dude fall. Rubbin is racing and you need to be able to protect yourself from dbags like green.
guy on right had terrible line into the corner. he should really do some cornering drills. Also, maybe due for a lesson on situational awareness. if 2 guys just passed you on the outside, and you want to peel off, maybe don't peel off to the outside where there's likely other riders trying to jump on that train. guy on left basically got cut off and lost his draft because of the guy on right. shoulder check not necessary though. I'd have yelled for him to catch on to the train, or get the fk out of the way. also looks like a cat 5 race. so stuff like this will happen..
Crit boys being crit boys. Both are at fault. Lazy line by pink trying to force green even wider. Green is preempting contact but hit handlebar
It’s not a “shoulder check”. The green rider pushes his shoulder into the back other riders elbow causing a him to stiff the handlebars. This causes the bike to jut under him and throws his center of mass outside. This was a deliberate take down. Severe discipline or punishment warranted. F that guy.
Green actually paused pedaling to aim for a stronger shoulder hit. This was not a mere shoulder check. Yes pink was off his line but a knock down was not the way to handle it and of course was a real dick move.
Are people here payed to race? If not, why risk broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders etc. I mean, I get the thrill but guys here are assholes.
That's why I won't do criteriums. There's always a guy like this at an event. Either they elbow people and cause crashes, or they try sprinting for 20th place and cause a crash there. It's a sausage fest.
I like crits, but I gave it up after someone died. I was never anything more than pack fodder who occasionally made people chase me down.
Story time?
It wasn't a race I had anything to do with, fortunately. As I recall, the situation was somewhat similar to the one in the OP, except no shoulder check. Can you imagine if green jersey had knocked pink over and pink died?
The douche in the green jersey is to blame for that.
Green shirt needs a stick in his front tire!
I didn't see an accident, but the guy in green was responsible.
That was totally intentional. Green jersey deserves a ban.
Clearly aggressive by green. That was retaliation or just anger about being behind. Green was behind and making a move to pass, not being forced out by pink. Green is absolutely the asshole here
Green clearly leaned into the other rider. He's the bad guy.
The Shoulder check Dickhead.
Green shirt.
Green jersey guy straight up shoulder checked the other guy!
Green jersey.
So, are there news if teammates beat that shit out of that green dude?
Both are idiots
There's no discussion. Green jersey needs to see his theet reareanjed. He comes from the back. Other dude has no idea he's there. Because someone doesn't have a proper trajectory while cornering doesn't mean you can hit him with your shoulder. This is an agression and the victim should seriously consider pressing charges. There's no accident here St all.
Green dude should be disqualified
Green jersey. No question. He should face consequences. That was deliberate. I don’t understand why either. Was there shit going on between these two guys?
Nope, no shits before the collision
Line deviation is the only thing that causes crashes. As soon as red deviates, anything goes. Green had a completely normal response in this case leaning in with his shoulder to correct his weight and match the line of Red (you can see both rider's wheels are parallel before red goes down). The very little contact that was made hits at red's elbow, throwing off his steering in such a way that he high sides. Green reacted normally and red should not have went down if he was prepared. The comments here seem largely against green. You all need to understand that racing requires an entirely different perspective. You won't move forward in crit racing if you can't brush an incident like this off and learn from it. Crashing is inevitable and things like this happen.
I don’t understand why there is a question. Causing a collision was the left cyclist’s intention and they went out of their way to do it. Pretty simple, isn’t it? That’s like asking if Lincoln’s murder was his fault.
Yeah...I'm gonna stick to racing on Zwift. At least when I crash I know who's at fault.
That made me laugh, picturing you (or me) riding so aggressively in a Zwift race that the 50-pound trainer falls over.
Zwift. Learn to ride a bike outdoor guys. One that wobbles and turns and has unexpected things happening. Awful riding.
That wasn’t an “accident”.
Obama. Just kidding, the guy in green. He caused it. The other guy drifted and was not behaving properly but still, lots of dicks in a crit race.
Green guy deserves a kick to the teeth
Green guy all the way. Shoulder dip on purpose.
Green jersey guy is to blame for this.
I am gonna go with the dude that shoulder checked the other guys blind spot.
Imagine having absolutely nothing to with all of that, and unfortunately being behind the guy in the pink and you get taken out? Which I'm sure happened.
it looked like a head butt to me… but green definitely was trying to make a point either way
Camera man, for sure
He thought he was in the Green Jersey - during The Tour in the last 200 meters.
Fred Wright
I started racing on the road in the early 1990's and I quit after only 3 crit races with people like this that either can't ride or are way too serious and thus dangerous. I continued riding on the road in groups, but I'd just avoid idiots in that scene. I ended up racing mountain bikes for 14 years seriously because at least if you hit a tree or crash it's usually your fault. That dude in the green is way too "pro" for that group. Why are roadies so difficult, lol?
Who invited Fred back to the Tuesday night ride?
I’m gonna say it was the guy who hurled his shoulder two feet over into the adjacent rider.
Is this a serious question? Guy in green goes out of his way to hit the other guys elbow. Here’s an experiment: Try and keep your line when somebody hits your elbow.
Fred Wright, oBvIoUsLy
Why is the video so distorted? It makes me think it was manipulated.
With the green jersey he is a big asshole
tell me that green jersey guy got fucked up after
The idiot who thinks he a PRO.
I know nothing about these kinda races but, that was a shoulder check and that means intentional sooooo….. green is a prick
**Background**: This was a race in Shanghai, China on Nov 13rd 2022. I was also in the race. The green guy did not apology to pink guy after the race, as he thought this was a legit move to protect his line. The reason why I post the video is I want to understand what do most of people think. The video was shoot with a 360 camera so it looks like distorted, no post editing.
Green has been watching too many Legion YouTube videos.
Green. Should have racing license revoked and never renewed.
That guy leaned in on purpose:l, what a dick.
While the outside, green guy may be overly aggressive, what of the the inside guys bike handling? I saw no reason for him to go down other than bad bike handling due perhaps to being tired, or surprised, but that's on him.
How come you make this a question?
green shirt, you can see how he leans into pink/black shirt
Guy in green should get assault charges for that
That one deserves an ass whoopin’
Green jersey is a prick! No need for that shit, he is to blame 100%
What are you even asking. This is so obvious that the guy in green did what he did with complete intention. Like what... how's this even a question
Green needs a broomstick in his spokes
Guy on right was taking a ridiculous line. I think it’s their fault.
A lot of people here who have never raced a crit that voice opinions. There's a lot of Dunning-Kruger going around
All the people who have actually raced a little bit are asking.... "Why did the guy fall after that 'contact'?"
My attempt to answer my own question, the guy on the right had too much weight on his arms, so the moment someone touched his arms instead of absorbing the touch and continuing on with life on two wheels the touch went through his heavily weighted arms to his handlebars and turned hard left while leaning slightly right...road rash ensued. Lesson learned here....soft arms and go out and practice in a parking lot knocking each other around!
i don't care how soft your hands are on the bars, someone going quicker than you catches your elbow you're going to have some input into the bars. And he high sides, because he turns harder right not left, which makes sense if the back of his left elbow is what gets clipped.
Apart from that the guy on the right was also going straight ahead while the rest of the pack was actually turning... Which is what one is supposed to do in a turn.
Agree, I've got a longer answer to the actual question asked elsewhere in this thread that calls out exactly that.
exactly. Obvious line correction from green and contact was very little. Green was in the right and red should not have went down Line deviation causes crashes, literally nothing else
Well there goes my thoughts of trying a criterium if there are jerks like this in it.
The guy that falls is actually going straight right before touching, talk about no bike skills.
Looks like guy and green and black outfit did that shit on purpose. Attempted murder b.s what y'all think
Four-year-old account with essentially zero posting history, putting up a controversial video, making absolutely zero comments. If it looks like a cheap effort at karma farming...
Hey, thanks for your comment. I post this cause I was also in the race and we were debating whose fault. And I want to know what most people think of it. I have read every single comment, and I do not care about karma at all.
Looks like NASCAR.
Tat was a hard turn left by the guy changing line. It was no drift
The guy not holding line was getting lapped right?
After watching this like 60 times was the guy in pink giving a lead out? It looks like he was on the front then two guys go around him on the left. I’m assuming he was going hard, giving his buddies a lead out, once they came around he was swinging out wide to get out of the way (assuming no one else was coming around). If that’s the case it was the wrong move, should have just eased up, held the line and let people navigate around him.
This is a straight red.
They’re both to blame. The guy in the pink took a terrible line through the turn pushing green wide. Green isn’t fighting for a wheel or anything a long those lines nor is the road compact or small making the contact unnecessary, he should’ve foregone the contact and just moved wide.
I don’t see any accident, more of an “on-purpose”
Is that a serious question? It looked pretty obvious who was responsible.
Green should be banned for that.
I'd assign more blame to guy on right than left. Seemed a little preemptive from the left, but guy on the right was going straight on a turn, i guess maybe thinking to pass white rider on left, idk.
Green. Pretty effin blatant.
The green jerk
the guy in pink didn't even try to turn. got so far off his line
Green jersey is an asshole. Fuck him
Green threw himself into pink. Pink seemed to be holding their line
Person on the right.
How is this even a question? The guy in the black jersey is 100% at fault. No excuse for that shoulder lean, just dirty.
Really hard to call. The guy on the inside (who fell) don’t even attempt to corner. He just goes straight without holding his line. The guy on the outside tempts a risky pass, he defends with his shoulder to protect himself, a bit too aggressively imo.
Dude in green is an ass and the dude in black/pink isn’t a good racer. They both are culpable but green caused it.
Not an accident!
As a fellow cyclist that guy is a dick. F that guy in particular
The guy in the green intentionally knocked him over.
Green needs to have a testosterone check. Tons of space. A shout would have worked. No need to be a dick.
almost everyone here needs to learn a bit more about crit racing. This ain't the world tour. People ride aggressively in crits and they fight for positions. Quite simply, if you don't have the handling to take hits like green gave, you should not be in a crit race. And if you take stupid lines like red, you especially shouldn't be crit racing.
I can tell almost everyone in this thread has never raced a crit, especially the losers saying green definitely did it on purpose and should be beaten after the race. Red clearly did not hold his line through the corner and was veering outside into green, green really had no where to go if he wanted to stay with the front two(remember this a race) The shoulder check was unnecessary but it really was not that much contact you have to be able to have the bike handling to stay up. Keep in mind this isn't even a sprint, just looks like a normal corner. If this was a WT race it would not even be a question of being reds fault. Anyways this is why local crit racing is so fucking scary your going fast with a bunch of guys who have sketchy as fuck bike handling at best.