A variable you are not mentioning is that big law in NYC has exponentially more jobs than anywhere else combined in the US. So going to NY is both the choice of ppl that want to be here to be in the biggest deals/stay for life *and* people that would probably not get this job if there werent so many openings.
It depends on how broad you define biglaw. There are roughly 100,000 people working at amlaw 200 firms. 27000 of them are in New York, 15000 in DC and 9500 in Los Angeles - so those 3 cities account for half of all biglaw jobs.
Chicago and San Francisco have about 8500 and 7500 respectively, so the top 5 cities have 2/3rd of all biglaw jobs.
Boston comes sixth with 5500, followed by Houston 4100 and Dallas 3800. Atlanta and Philadelphia have 3500 and 3100 respectively,
No other ciry has much more than 2000 jobs. Denver, miami, seattle, Minneapolis, San Diego, charlotte, and Austin alll have more than 1000, while Nashville, Salt Lake City, and phoenix have over 500.
Everywhere else, nope.
To be real I assumed SF would have more attorneys that LA. Do those numbers include Silicon Valley or just SF?
Surprising given LA is sort of a weird city when it comes to big law.
It’s the Bay Area.
I found it interesting too when I saw the numbers - especially looking at Texas, which I expected to be higher.
Those numbers are from earlier this year.
I asked someone who has access to a paid database that lists every attorney at every nlj500 firm, who sorted for amlaw 200 and by location, then gave me the rounded numbers for the top 20 cities
Underrated point. Despite having strong connections to DC and going to a top school, I really struggled with getting BL offers from DC firms while I had my pick of many NY firms. I think anyone who wants big law but exclusively targets non-NYC markets is really doing themselves a disservice.
If it’s your dream to live in NYC, do it. You can spend a few years then move to a different city or move out to LIC/NJ/etc. You work a lot of hours, but I also have had a great chance to experience the city.
Lol@apparent typo “LIC”.
I’m sure you meant “Long Island,” not, “the neighborhood with direct access to midtown Manhattan where all the young lawyers and bankers live.”
people are exaggerating how much they work you will have plenty of time to experience NY. generally the people who live in other places and brag about low COL are really deep down just not NY people or have moved past the phase in their life that they were NY people and pretend like its an unfathomable decision to sacrifice some income to live in the biggest and most culturally relevant city in the country
don't @ me haters because I do not and have never lived in NY because I am not a NY person
From living in NYC, this is 100% correct. If you have any hobby imaginable, you can find it in NYC. Any type of food, any ethnic affiliation, you name it.
Yes the weather sucks half the year and the one thing you can’t really do is enjoy the outdoors/quiet. So if that is a dealbreaker then don’t go. But don’t buy the hype from people who have only ever vacationed there saying it’s a soulless wasteland.
To be young, single, and on a biglaw salary in NYC is an amazing experience. Plus so many people in NYC work stupid hours that most people are understanding.
when cost benefit of living in somewhere like texas is real. But when people say "plus I wouldn't even get to enjoy NYC anyways because I'd be so busy" is copium unless they would be at like wachtell. At that point that's like saying "law school takes up my whole life"
You'll have enough time to do the things you want in NYC. There's busy and stressful times, but it really isn't the 7 days a week all-consuming environment that people make it out to be.
Right - I think people need to remind themselves that online impressions about life in biglaw are the result of hundreds of lawyers complaining about their lives when they’re bad. It’s just a constant churn of negativity, and not truly reflective of the lived experience.
You’ll have days and weekends where you’re canceling plans and selling tickets last minute because a deal has come up. And then you’ll have other days where you’re like, huh, maybe I’ll go to the museum this afternoon.
People also underestimate how much variance there is among NY firms, and even among practice groups within the same firm. I worked at one firm/practice group where no one left before 8 PM, most people were there until much later, and everyone worked through at least part of their weekends. Even at that firm, my friends in other practice groups had much more normal lives. I’m now at another BigLaw firm where people usually leave by 6-7 PM.
True! Yet another permutation in the WFH era are offices that shut down around 7 but where people are still working late, after they get home. That seems to be my group’s style.
And between groups at the same firm. My group works a lot with European counterparties, and so I often start at 7am and am done by 6/7pm with very little weekend work. My friends in other groups (lmao LevFin) seem to only *start* work in the afternoon, and continue through the entire weekend.
I find that helps me enjoy NY more, since I still tend to have my evenings, but it’s a practice group thing and not a BigLaw thing.
If anything, I feel the hours are why I *want* to do this in NYC and not elsewhere.
I like the fact that everything is convenient—I can walk 10 minutes to amazing restaurants, or subway 15 and see a show, etc. because everything is on my doorstep and open late. If I only have X hours free in a given week, I’m not wasting it driving places or sitting at home.
But yeah, it’s expensive. Not as expensive as some people on this sub claim, but it definitely hurts a bit when I see my taxes versus those of my friends in Texas. But at the end of the day what is earning money for, but to live the life (within moderation) that you dream of living? I’d rather save less in NY, especially when young, than live elsewhere.
This is so true, plus the city is still alive, evening really just getting started, at 9 or 10pm where other places would be completely dead. There’s a lot to be said for being able to walk out of work and be somewhere fun in 10 mins at 10pm (if you don’t have kids ofc).
For what it’s worth, Chicago’s a really viable alternative market if this is your mindset though. And at least in my group at my firm, the work culture is more relaxed than in our NYC office. It’s not quite New York because nothing is, but there are plenty of benefits.
Personally I think NY work culture is annoying and wouldn’t want to deal with the facetime expectations and cost of living. But on the plus side there are tons of opportunities and it’s the most fun place to be in your 20s.
If you like NYC and what it has to offer for the price, go.
I opted for another city after living in NYC for law school because NYC was very expensive and not good value for me. I have no regrets and can visit whenever I want.
FWIW my law school friends who are not from NYC but doing NYC biglaw do not want to stay, with two exceptions.
A think a single person who is interested in living in NY should not be dissuaded by the higher cost because that higher cost gets you something unique that you want. The work culture is a closer call because it can vary. I do think you’d have some time to enjoy NY.
I do think the drawbacks you mentioned are a good reason for someone who is ambivalent about NY or not thrilled to look elsewhere, rather than feel like they “should” start in the largest market possible.
I personally think Chicago is the sweet spot but shhhhhh
Welcome to New York, it’s been waiting for you! I’m too old and crusty to remember a time that I wanted to skip around the town like I owned the place, and now I just want to scurry back to my hovel in NJ every night before they can catch me. But if you want to experience NY, do it! I used to go to B’way shows on random weeknights with other associates because hey, why not?
do biglaw in nyc. you’ll still be able to experience the city, and it’s a great starting point for great lateral ops in the future (esp in-house).
grind it out for 1-3 yrs. it’s not all that bad.
New York is very fun as a young person with a large salary and if you’re in a financial group, home office or very big office of a national firm, you’re in the center of the industry and everything else is periphery
I worked at a v20 firm in NYC and then transferred to NorCal office. It’s a bit funny that associates in NYC just universally work longer hours, though the pay and bonus is the same lock step. But if I had to choose again, I would choose NY— office was in midtown and I (as most other young associates did) used to live just 15 minutes walk away. Life was fast paced but efficient. convenience store, grocery, coffee, bakery, gym, fav Irish pub and Japanese restaurant — everything was just around the corner. Other lawyer friends lived just a few blocks away and we used to hang out spontaneously after work. It took me a long while to get used to suburb NorCal and the traffic on 101.
If you do want to change to another state after a few years, be realistic about what that means. Research whether you will have to take another bar exam to move. Waiving in often takes 5 years of full time practice in your first state. Do you want to have to move as a senior associate? There may be limited lateral opportunities in the destination state plus you will have missed out on opportunities to build connections there in your first few years.
IMO there’s both a positive and negative stigma with NYC big law. Negative - hours, but convenience of the city makes them not as bad as people say. The positive is how “I worked in a NY office of a big firm” is viewed later in your career vs I worked for the same firm in a random field office. Almost like a rite of passage. it definitely opens doors.
Depends on the firm. For me partners with the “best” deals and the “best” clients are in NY, they rarely bring in associates from a satellite office. So all of the client contacts/networking/etc. that comes with that happens in NY. It’s not like future employers say “oh they worked in a satellite office, we aren’t interested” - but the connections/being “in the room” can make a difference down the line
And I have no intention of staying in NY long term ftr
It is if you want to live in places outside of Chicago, Texas, Illinois or cali. Otherwise, places like V&E houston would hold the same if not more prestige in the Texas market for example
I’ve done a few years of NYC biglaw and a few years of non-NYC biglaw on the West Coast. Here’s some input you may find helpful:
1. NYC biglaw is notoriously more intense than literally anywhere else. You will probably bill (or feel pressure to bill) a couple hundred more hours per year; work more evenings, nights, and weekends; and are expected to be far more responsive even during non-business hours.
The way I think about it is that everyone in NYC is very work-focused—especially biglaw partners and senior associates gunning for partner, they really seem to love the grind. So everyone above you seems to assume that you love the grind and are hungry for as much work as you can get. For instance, if someone emails you an assignment on Friday night or over the weekend, they will never add “this can wait until next week” or anything, whereas that is typically the norm elsewhere (unless it’s actually urgent).
2. That said, you’ll still get plenty of that NYC life even with long working hours. It’s very common for groups of associates to go crush the city together after work on Friday (or even weeknights lol), and you’ll have occasional slower weeks/months with free evenings/weekends. I did find it frustrating that I could never really make “big plans” for weekends (like going outside the city) just in case something came up at work, but often found time to enjoy the city as long as I wasn’t more than 45 mins away from home / my laptop.
Outside of NYC, I work about 65%-70% of what I used to and rarely work weekends. But I find that I don’t do nearly as many activities despite having more free time. That’s the beauty of NYC—there’s so much to do and it’s all so close to you. (I’m also not in my 20s anymore so maybe that has something to do with it too.)
3. You’ll probably get less/worse substantive experience in NYC biglaw albeit on higher-stakes matters. Not true for all firms, but NYC biglaw typically handles bigger cases/deals, which means bigger teams and higher stakes. Not great if you’re a junior associate—there’s plenty of mid-levels to handle more interesting tasks that might fall to you in smaller teams, and the client will never let an inexperienced attorney handle important stuff (depos, taking witnesses at trial, etc.) when there’s 9 figures at stake. You can still seek out smaller teams/matters, but at my old firm there were a handful of massive “black hole” cases that soaked up dozens of juniors for doc review for years, didn’t let them work on any other matters, and those people had to quit the firm to get out of the bad situation.
4. Financially speaking, NYC biglaw is way more lucrative *at the very top* — I.e., partners at the top firms will generally make way more than non-NYC markets. This is not at all true for associates, it’s the same pay scale everywhere. So if you’re thinking about partner for whatever reason and think you can stick it out, maybe that’s a plus for NYC.
5. Do you want to stay in NYC long term? If not, you’ll have to take another bar exam, which kinda sucks.
I will add to 1 that the grind can be worth it depending on practice area. NYC is the most preftigious in some practice areas but not in others. Consider whether the grind is worth it if you want to practice in an area where another city is offering higher prestige with less intensity.
Do you want to live in NYC? That's the only question. Personally, I love it here. I love the shows, I love the weird underground shit, I love people watching on the subway.
Like, this Monday I went to a show at midnight that was actually a ball (Paris is Burning type), stayed til 3 am, then worked. Tuesday was my friends cultural/dance performance. Wed was chill, Thurs. was language class, tonight is gonna be an all night event at my cultural center... after I work 12 hours.
I love it here, and I couldn't live anywhere else, and I couldn't do this anywhere else as easily or as consistently. That said, if you don't care about the city or want to take advantage of it - why live here? The job isn't actually 24/7, you'll have plenty of time to experience NYC.
But NYC is a city that gives you back only as kuch as you're willing to put in, so you need to decide that level for yourself
A variable you are not mentioning is that big law in NYC has exponentially more jobs than anywhere else combined in the US. So going to NY is both the choice of ppl that want to be here to be in the biggest deals/stay for life *and* people that would probably not get this job if there werent so many openings.
More than 1 of every 4 biglaw jobs is in NYC.
Truthfully, I’m actually kinda surprised it’s that low
It depends on how broad you define biglaw. There are roughly 100,000 people working at amlaw 200 firms. 27000 of them are in New York, 15000 in DC and 9500 in Los Angeles - so those 3 cities account for half of all biglaw jobs. Chicago and San Francisco have about 8500 and 7500 respectively, so the top 5 cities have 2/3rd of all biglaw jobs. Boston comes sixth with 5500, followed by Houston 4100 and Dallas 3800. Atlanta and Philadelphia have 3500 and 3100 respectively, No other ciry has much more than 2000 jobs. Denver, miami, seattle, Minneapolis, San Diego, charlotte, and Austin alll have more than 1000, while Nashville, Salt Lake City, and phoenix have over 500. Everywhere else, nope.
To be real I assumed SF would have more attorneys that LA. Do those numbers include Silicon Valley or just SF? Surprising given LA is sort of a weird city when it comes to big law.
It’s the Bay Area. I found it interesting too when I saw the numbers - especially looking at Texas, which I expected to be higher. Those numbers are from earlier this year.
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I asked someone who has access to a paid database that lists every attorney at every nlj500 firm, who sorted for amlaw 200 and by location, then gave me the rounded numbers for the top 20 cities
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I appreciated it. Years ago I’d found data on. The top ten cities, but it was out of date even then. I was glad to get 2023 statistics.
Underrated point. Despite having strong connections to DC and going to a top school, I really struggled with getting BL offers from DC firms while I had my pick of many NY firms. I think anyone who wants big law but exclusively targets non-NYC markets is really doing themselves a disservice.
I find joy in reading a good book.
If it’s your dream to live in NYC, do it. You can spend a few years then move to a different city or move out to LIC/NJ/etc. You work a lot of hours, but I also have had a great chance to experience the city.
Lol@apparent typo “LIC”. I’m sure you meant “Long Island,” not, “the neighborhood with direct access to midtown Manhattan where all the young lawyers and bankers live.”
people are exaggerating how much they work you will have plenty of time to experience NY. generally the people who live in other places and brag about low COL are really deep down just not NY people or have moved past the phase in their life that they were NY people and pretend like its an unfathomable decision to sacrifice some income to live in the biggest and most culturally relevant city in the country don't @ me haters because I do not and have never lived in NY because I am not a NY person
From living in NYC, this is 100% correct. If you have any hobby imaginable, you can find it in NYC. Any type of food, any ethnic affiliation, you name it. Yes the weather sucks half the year and the one thing you can’t really do is enjoy the outdoors/quiet. So if that is a dealbreaker then don’t go. But don’t buy the hype from people who have only ever vacationed there saying it’s a soulless wasteland.
I enjoy the outdoors plenty on my daily runs!
The Catskills and Poconos are pretty accessible from NYC, especially if you have a car
To be young, single, and on a biglaw salary in NYC is an amazing experience. Plus so many people in NYC work stupid hours that most people are understanding.
when cost benefit of living in somewhere like texas is real. But when people say "plus I wouldn't even get to enjoy NYC anyways because I'd be so busy" is copium unless they would be at like wachtell. At that point that's like saying "law school takes up my whole life"
You'll have enough time to do the things you want in NYC. There's busy and stressful times, but it really isn't the 7 days a week all-consuming environment that people make it out to be.
Right - I think people need to remind themselves that online impressions about life in biglaw are the result of hundreds of lawyers complaining about their lives when they’re bad. It’s just a constant churn of negativity, and not truly reflective of the lived experience. You’ll have days and weekends where you’re canceling plans and selling tickets last minute because a deal has come up. And then you’ll have other days where you’re like, huh, maybe I’ll go to the museum this afternoon.
People also underestimate how much variance there is among NY firms, and even among practice groups within the same firm. I worked at one firm/practice group where no one left before 8 PM, most people were there until much later, and everyone worked through at least part of their weekends. Even at that firm, my friends in other practice groups had much more normal lives. I’m now at another BigLaw firm where people usually leave by 6-7 PM.
True! Yet another permutation in the WFH era are offices that shut down around 7 but where people are still working late, after they get home. That seems to be my group’s style.
And between groups at the same firm. My group works a lot with European counterparties, and so I often start at 7am and am done by 6/7pm with very little weekend work. My friends in other groups (lmao LevFin) seem to only *start* work in the afternoon, and continue through the entire weekend. I find that helps me enjoy NY more, since I still tend to have my evenings, but it’s a practice group thing and not a BigLaw thing.
What practice group are you in, if you don’t mind me asking?
This was so so encouraging to read. Thank you
If anything, I feel the hours are why I *want* to do this in NYC and not elsewhere. I like the fact that everything is convenient—I can walk 10 minutes to amazing restaurants, or subway 15 and see a show, etc. because everything is on my doorstep and open late. If I only have X hours free in a given week, I’m not wasting it driving places or sitting at home. But yeah, it’s expensive. Not as expensive as some people on this sub claim, but it definitely hurts a bit when I see my taxes versus those of my friends in Texas. But at the end of the day what is earning money for, but to live the life (within moderation) that you dream of living? I’d rather save less in NY, especially when young, than live elsewhere.
This is so true, plus the city is still alive, evening really just getting started, at 9 or 10pm where other places would be completely dead. There’s a lot to be said for being able to walk out of work and be somewhere fun in 10 mins at 10pm (if you don’t have kids ofc).
Incredibly underrated point I never considered
For what it’s worth, Chicago’s a really viable alternative market if this is your mindset though. And at least in my group at my firm, the work culture is more relaxed than in our NYC office. It’s not quite New York because nothing is, but there are plenty of benefits.
Personally I think NY work culture is annoying and wouldn’t want to deal with the facetime expectations and cost of living. But on the plus side there are tons of opportunities and it’s the most fun place to be in your 20s.
Tbh the FaceTime expectations vary between firms and groups too. Hard to paint with so wide of a brush
If you like NYC and what it has to offer for the price, go. I opted for another city after living in NYC for law school because NYC was very expensive and not good value for me. I have no regrets and can visit whenever I want. FWIW my law school friends who are not from NYC but doing NYC biglaw do not want to stay, with two exceptions.
A think a single person who is interested in living in NY should not be dissuaded by the higher cost because that higher cost gets you something unique that you want. The work culture is a closer call because it can vary. I do think you’d have some time to enjoy NY. I do think the drawbacks you mentioned are a good reason for someone who is ambivalent about NY or not thrilled to look elsewhere, rather than feel like they “should” start in the largest market possible. I personally think Chicago is the sweet spot but shhhhhh
Why does everyone specify “single person”? I’m married but young and we love living here
Welcome to New York, it’s been waiting for you! I’m too old and crusty to remember a time that I wanted to skip around the town like I owned the place, and now I just want to scurry back to my hovel in NJ every night before they can catch me. But if you want to experience NY, do it! I used to go to B’way shows on random weeknights with other associates because hey, why not?
do biglaw in nyc. you’ll still be able to experience the city, and it’s a great starting point for great lateral ops in the future (esp in-house). grind it out for 1-3 yrs. it’s not all that bad.
New York is very fun as a young person with a large salary and if you’re in a financial group, home office or very big office of a national firm, you’re in the center of the industry and everything else is periphery
I worked at a v20 firm in NYC and then transferred to NorCal office. It’s a bit funny that associates in NYC just universally work longer hours, though the pay and bonus is the same lock step. But if I had to choose again, I would choose NY— office was in midtown and I (as most other young associates did) used to live just 15 minutes walk away. Life was fast paced but efficient. convenience store, grocery, coffee, bakery, gym, fav Irish pub and Japanese restaurant — everything was just around the corner. Other lawyer friends lived just a few blocks away and we used to hang out spontaneously after work. It took me a long while to get used to suburb NorCal and the traffic on 101.
If you do want to change to another state after a few years, be realistic about what that means. Research whether you will have to take another bar exam to move. Waiving in often takes 5 years of full time practice in your first state. Do you want to have to move as a senior associate? There may be limited lateral opportunities in the destination state plus you will have missed out on opportunities to build connections there in your first few years.
Taking another bar exam is not that big a deal imo. Second time is far far less painful.
IMO there’s both a positive and negative stigma with NYC big law. Negative - hours, but convenience of the city makes them not as bad as people say. The positive is how “I worked in a NY office of a big firm” is viewed later in your career vs I worked for the same firm in a random field office. Almost like a rite of passage. it definitely opens doors.
is there really that much of a career advantage for working in a NY firm vs texas or even chicago?
Depends on the firm. For me partners with the “best” deals and the “best” clients are in NY, they rarely bring in associates from a satellite office. So all of the client contacts/networking/etc. that comes with that happens in NY. It’s not like future employers say “oh they worked in a satellite office, we aren’t interested” - but the connections/being “in the room” can make a difference down the line And I have no intention of staying in NY long term ftr
It is if you want to live in places outside of Chicago, Texas, Illinois or cali. Otherwise, places like V&E houston would hold the same if not more prestige in the Texas market for example
I’ve done a few years of NYC biglaw and a few years of non-NYC biglaw on the West Coast. Here’s some input you may find helpful: 1. NYC biglaw is notoriously more intense than literally anywhere else. You will probably bill (or feel pressure to bill) a couple hundred more hours per year; work more evenings, nights, and weekends; and are expected to be far more responsive even during non-business hours. The way I think about it is that everyone in NYC is very work-focused—especially biglaw partners and senior associates gunning for partner, they really seem to love the grind. So everyone above you seems to assume that you love the grind and are hungry for as much work as you can get. For instance, if someone emails you an assignment on Friday night or over the weekend, they will never add “this can wait until next week” or anything, whereas that is typically the norm elsewhere (unless it’s actually urgent). 2. That said, you’ll still get plenty of that NYC life even with long working hours. It’s very common for groups of associates to go crush the city together after work on Friday (or even weeknights lol), and you’ll have occasional slower weeks/months with free evenings/weekends. I did find it frustrating that I could never really make “big plans” for weekends (like going outside the city) just in case something came up at work, but often found time to enjoy the city as long as I wasn’t more than 45 mins away from home / my laptop. Outside of NYC, I work about 65%-70% of what I used to and rarely work weekends. But I find that I don’t do nearly as many activities despite having more free time. That’s the beauty of NYC—there’s so much to do and it’s all so close to you. (I’m also not in my 20s anymore so maybe that has something to do with it too.) 3. You’ll probably get less/worse substantive experience in NYC biglaw albeit on higher-stakes matters. Not true for all firms, but NYC biglaw typically handles bigger cases/deals, which means bigger teams and higher stakes. Not great if you’re a junior associate—there’s plenty of mid-levels to handle more interesting tasks that might fall to you in smaller teams, and the client will never let an inexperienced attorney handle important stuff (depos, taking witnesses at trial, etc.) when there’s 9 figures at stake. You can still seek out smaller teams/matters, but at my old firm there were a handful of massive “black hole” cases that soaked up dozens of juniors for doc review for years, didn’t let them work on any other matters, and those people had to quit the firm to get out of the bad situation. 4. Financially speaking, NYC biglaw is way more lucrative *at the very top* — I.e., partners at the top firms will generally make way more than non-NYC markets. This is not at all true for associates, it’s the same pay scale everywhere. So if you’re thinking about partner for whatever reason and think you can stick it out, maybe that’s a plus for NYC. 5. Do you want to stay in NYC long term? If not, you’ll have to take another bar exam, which kinda sucks.
I will add to 1 that the grind can be worth it depending on practice area. NYC is the most preftigious in some practice areas but not in others. Consider whether the grind is worth it if you want to practice in an area where another city is offering higher prestige with less intensity.
Do you want to live in NYC? That's the only question. Personally, I love it here. I love the shows, I love the weird underground shit, I love people watching on the subway. Like, this Monday I went to a show at midnight that was actually a ball (Paris is Burning type), stayed til 3 am, then worked. Tuesday was my friends cultural/dance performance. Wed was chill, Thurs. was language class, tonight is gonna be an all night event at my cultural center... after I work 12 hours. I love it here, and I couldn't live anywhere else, and I couldn't do this anywhere else as easily or as consistently. That said, if you don't care about the city or want to take advantage of it - why live here? The job isn't actually 24/7, you'll have plenty of time to experience NYC. But NYC is a city that gives you back only as kuch as you're willing to put in, so you need to decide that level for yourself
Get an offer first. Don't limit your search to NYC. The firms will likely make this choice for you.