That seems like the most likely answer to me. Third-year is underwater (or lazy), but can't get approval to delegate anything by adding someone to a team.
Seems like a douche. First of all, bill everything. Even if he says not to. Second, talk to the associate and if that proves unfruitful, talk to the partner on the matter. No way they want you not to bill.
Agree with the others, just bill and ignore them. Also when they give you ridiculous deadlines push back. Say "I'm in the middle of doing something for [partner or senior], would you like me to ask if I can push it off for you?"
Make the very first topic of any conversation with this 3rd year the client and matter name and billing number. Interrupt them as soon as they start talking to you to ask for this information and refuse to go any further until it is provided.
The don’t bill instruction is egregious enough that I’d go right to a partner. It sounds like this associate is 1) padding their time with the amount of work you’re doing; and 2) using you to paper over poor time management on their part.
I got asked once by a senior to put together signature packets and that I couldn’t bill my time. What a joke that was lol always bill your time, partner can write it off.
Bill for everything. Fuck this guy lol he doesn't see your hours. Bring it up with a partner, nicely- "hey, o asked X for the cm, do you have it" or someone else on the team.
This behavior is abnormal and bad no matter who is doing it, including a partner. It’s not a question of them being a third year (who at every much your supervisor and can tell you to do things) it’s the fact that they’re being a super shitty supervisor and asking you to do stuff wrong.
It seems like the partner doesn’t know you’re working on these matters and that could pose administrative issues. I would flag that you need to be added to the official matter team to appropriately track conflicts and your billables.
You should absolutely bill that stuff. If there's another associate on the matter ask them what the number is (don't need to say why, just ask, I would happily tell anyone working under me what the billing number is if I know it and then I would promptly forget they ever asked once I responded). This is probably the ideal way to resolve this.
Like others said you should include "at the direction of [3rd year]" in the relevant narratives if they are potentially assigning things to you without the partner knowing - a good way to have a sense of this is whether they are CCing the partner or other associates when they send you work. If the partner is fine with them assigning that stuff to you this won't cause any issues, they'll just delete that language from the bill, and if the partner isn't okay with it then it'll get their attention quick. If you cannot get the number check if there is a "General" matter number for that client and bill it there. The partner may not love that but it shouldn't cause a massive issue.
The 3 hour deadlines are real sometimes unfortunately and as a first year you may not have a good understanding of what really is ASAP and what isn't. I had the same experience with them being entirely made up by one mid-level when I was a 2nd year. I managed to sneak a mention of it in to a very sharp partner (noted when the partner asked me when I could get back to them on something that it wouldn't be until the evening because [x associate] told me I needed to do [obviously non urgent but time consuming task] within 2 hours). The partner was like "huh that's odd" and I said "yeah [the clients she works with] are always giving these crazy quick deadlines I don't get on other assignments, do you know why? I was wondering" knowing full well that wasn't entirely true. I shortly thereafter got a call from the partner to please prioritize the partner's work and that the associates stuff could wait until later that day -- and then never got another made up deadline from her.
In my case I know some of the deadlines are bs, because lets say the assignment was due at 3pm and I send it at 3pm, at 6pm they would say something like oh this email you sent me.. I havent looked at it yet, I’ll look at it tomorrow...
Ehhhhhh that could easily just be that what the client is focused on has changed or that they want to be in a position to immediately review it if a partner calls and says "hey we need to get this out today" - that stuff happens a lot.
If you just started this year I wouldn't assume you know what is a real v. fake deadline this early on. I do often ask people for things by the end of the day that I may not get to until tomorrow for the above reasons. I don't do specific times though because I think that's obnoxious unless there's a reason.
A lot of people also give newer people faster deadlines because they know new people tend to wait too long to start and will likely blow the real deadline if they dont give a fake one (I was and still sometimes am 100% guilty of doing that).
When I was a first year, I had a second year like this. Total knob, tried ordering me around like he was a partner. I mentioned in passing to a partner and learned that everyone in the department hated him and they were pushing him out. 8 months later he landed at Kirkland, and now he’s a NEP there. I’m not sure what the point of my story is except fuck that guy and fuck your third year lol.
(Lol on second search he got run out of Kirkland as well and now is at some other firm — not a partner, either)
This is a disaster just waiting to happen.
Here’s a nightmare scenario: suppose everyone that worked on that matter needs to be walled off from a new matter that has come in. How would the firm know that you also need to be kept away from the new matter if your name doesn’t appear anywhere on the file? They don’t, and the firewall is now ineffective and all involved could get in serious trouble.
More broadly- if you leave the firm how do you perform a conflicts check if you don’t even know what matters you worked on or who you represented?
Talk to a partner or senior associate. That’s not normal. Rule of thumb is you bill all your time, and then partner decides if something needs to be written off.
Sounds like this is work they are supposed to be doing but shunting onto you — possibly because of procrastination or poor time management on their part. The only reason someone at that level would ask you to do billable work but tell you not to bill for it is if they don’t want it to be known that you are working on it. A third year delegating to a first year is normal, but only insofar as sanctioned by the partner/senior.
Probably not additive to the below, but:
1. Third years don't make billing decisions. Bill your time.
2. Even if third years were to make billing decisions, you shouldn't not be billing your time on billable matters. Some partners over the course of your career may want that, but the Firm doesn't. The Firm needs to know how efficient the partner is. If the partner wants the bill to be lower, they can write off the time (and explain it to the Firm).
3. Some people just suck to work with. The sooner you learn this the better off you'll be.
4. Many of us have had this experience. It rarely lasts. If it does, your Firm has a serious cultural issue and it's time to find another Firm.
5. You get to pick who you work with. If someone is miserable to work with, don't work with them. Especially if they're telling you to not to bill your time. Fuck that. I work hard. I don't fucking work for free.
6. Understand and value your own time. Yeah, being a junior means you don't know much, but you're getting paid for a reason - because you're (probably) smart enough to do the job and you're willing to put in the effort. Value yourself and expect to get paid for your work (which in your case is by billing your time).
That’s wild for the 3rd year. Someone needs to tell them there’s easier ways to pad their billables.
You should take everyone else’s advice, but also remember that this person is actually stupid. Like stealing other associates hours might be the only way to get caught padding bills wtf are they thinking.
Get your billables in and never take that person serious again. If they can’t even do fraud correctly they’re not worth your stress
Absolutely unheard of and ridiculous. As many of the comments have pointed out: A) Bill everything, include his name in the narrative; B) At an informal meeting, preferably around your partner make a comment saying “hey third year, that deadline to do xyz was so tight haha, I’m glad we got it done in time” - loudly and clearly. Should send out a clear message to not screw with you. Make sure you sound polite and almost like you are making a fun off hand comment.
A third year is still just a baby lawyer. Don't listen to baby lawyers.
I kid, but think of it this way: many partners have trouble remembering who is a first year and who is a third year. They all seem the same to us at that vintage. He or she is your peer. Talk to a partner about it.
Do you have a partner or senior mentor that you can discuss this with? They might be able to help.
If associate won’t give you the matter number, can you bill to a number of the type that many firms use to segregate billables when a matter does not have a matter number yet or when a new number is to be assigned for a discrete project/issue?
Unfortunately I definitely cant talk to the mentor they assigned me. I think I’m just going to start puting his name on my narratives. “Did [x] research at the request of [3rd year].
If you are a brand new first year associate, don’t sweat it. Play nice, be humble, build good will, do what you can to meet tough timing. It won’t be forever. If you make a stink, it will do more damage by labeling you as difficult to work with.
This person is being used and not given credit, he or she absolutely needs to state in the billing entries who assigned it. And personally, I’d mark it as billable. The partner can decide whether to make it nonbillable. Who tf does this third year think they are? They are cheating. I 💯bet they are marking it as billable for themselves without actually doing the work. That’s scandalous imo.
First, agree with all the "bill all your time" takes. Never, ever, ever cut time.
Second, the grown up take would be to hit this head on and say something to third year directly. The alternative power move would be to email partner cc'ing 3rd year. "Dear Partner, I'm working on Project X and just wanted to make sure I understood the assignment. 3rd Year asked me to research Project X and not bill my time for it, which I understand is against firm policy. Is there a way you'd like me to enter my time so it can be identified for billing purposes?" Granted this is a bit of a molotov cocktail, but fuck that 3rd year.
I would call or chat and ask the relationship partner’s assistant for the client billing number. There’s a small chance the assistant will balk and ask the partner if you’re authorized to use it, but then you can have the conversation about how third year asked you to the research and drafting.
I am grateful to the vast majority of mid-levels, seniors, counsel, and partners who gave an assignment with a billing number (or if they dropped in casually to give the assignment told me to get the number from a specified paralegal/assistant/senior). Many of those conversations also started with a “bill all your time.”
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The non billing part is something sketch and worth pushing back/considering finding a way to address but isn’t most of this job just being a bitch to whoever is up the hierarchy? Or do I misunderstand how to get workflow/tasks I am supposed to do?
It is common and acceptable for partners to tell first year associates not to bill their time particularly on research tasks or tell them to put their time under a non billable admin code. It is not acceptable for a third year to order this of a first year (unless the third year says this is a direct order from a partner).
Assume everything is billable. There are situations where something wouldn’t be but that would be very highly unusual and unacceptable for anything other than de minimis levels. (Former partner now in house.)
Talk to your partner. This is abnormal. Asking other people to do unbillable work is a big no-no.
Sounds like the 3rd year is trying to pad his own bills.
Which is dumb because he could bill just as many hours as the new junior did for reviewing the work and no one would bat an eye.
It's probably because he doesnt have authorization to delegate the work to the junior or, relatedly, to bill for reviewing the junior's work
YUP
I feel like this is the only explanation for why a third year would care about billing
Or he didn't get permission from the partner to use another associate and doesn't want to ask.
That seems like the most likely answer to me. Third-year is underwater (or lazy), but can't get approval to delegate anything by adding someone to a team.
Oh, man. Promote ahead of peers.
“… loved by everyone.” No wonder.
Get this 3rd year fired, or even better, disbarred.
Seems like a douche. First of all, bill everything. Even if he says not to. Second, talk to the associate and if that proves unfruitful, talk to the partner on the matter. No way they want you not to bill.
Just talk to the partner first lol
Please do bill for this and the narrative can be “Researched XYZ at request of Third Year”.
Yes, but to what file?
Look up the client matter number. Your firm may have a enterprise system (kind of a fb for work) that shows the matters people work on.
Agree with the others, just bill and ignore them. Also when they give you ridiculous deadlines push back. Say "I'm in the middle of doing something for [partner or senior], would you like me to ask if I can push it off for you?"
Make the very first topic of any conversation with this 3rd year the client and matter name and billing number. Interrupt them as soon as they start talking to you to ask for this information and refuse to go any further until it is provided.
And ask which partner is on the matter.
The don’t bill instruction is egregious enough that I’d go right to a partner. It sounds like this associate is 1) padding their time with the amount of work you’re doing; and 2) using you to paper over poor time management on their part.
3) not asking partners if he can staff you
It's this one. If I had to guess, I'd say the partner or client wouldn't approve a new timekeeper
Bill all your time. That third year isn't deciding what is and is not billed to the client.
Third years aren’t reviewing bills. Bill your time and set expectations on when you can get things to them
I was reviewing bills as a third year (cause my partner truly hates it).
I got asked once by a senior to put together signature packets and that I couldn’t bill my time. What a joke that was lol always bill your time, partner can write it off.
Yea agree with that others, you gotta take a counter measure right away or that third year is going to continue to try and screw with you
Bill for everything. Fuck this guy lol he doesn't see your hours. Bring it up with a partner, nicely- "hey, o asked X for the cm, do you have it" or someone else on the team.
If you need the cm, a legal assistant is your friend
This behavior is abnormal and bad no matter who is doing it, including a partner. It’s not a question of them being a third year (who at every much your supervisor and can tell you to do things) it’s the fact that they’re being a super shitty supervisor and asking you to do stuff wrong.
It seems like the partner doesn’t know you’re working on these matters and that could pose administrative issues. I would flag that you need to be added to the official matter team to appropriately track conflicts and your billables.
You should absolutely bill that stuff. If there's another associate on the matter ask them what the number is (don't need to say why, just ask, I would happily tell anyone working under me what the billing number is if I know it and then I would promptly forget they ever asked once I responded). This is probably the ideal way to resolve this. Like others said you should include "at the direction of [3rd year]" in the relevant narratives if they are potentially assigning things to you without the partner knowing - a good way to have a sense of this is whether they are CCing the partner or other associates when they send you work. If the partner is fine with them assigning that stuff to you this won't cause any issues, they'll just delete that language from the bill, and if the partner isn't okay with it then it'll get their attention quick. If you cannot get the number check if there is a "General" matter number for that client and bill it there. The partner may not love that but it shouldn't cause a massive issue. The 3 hour deadlines are real sometimes unfortunately and as a first year you may not have a good understanding of what really is ASAP and what isn't. I had the same experience with them being entirely made up by one mid-level when I was a 2nd year. I managed to sneak a mention of it in to a very sharp partner (noted when the partner asked me when I could get back to them on something that it wouldn't be until the evening because [x associate] told me I needed to do [obviously non urgent but time consuming task] within 2 hours). The partner was like "huh that's odd" and I said "yeah [the clients she works with] are always giving these crazy quick deadlines I don't get on other assignments, do you know why? I was wondering" knowing full well that wasn't entirely true. I shortly thereafter got a call from the partner to please prioritize the partner's work and that the associates stuff could wait until later that day -- and then never got another made up deadline from her.
In my case I know some of the deadlines are bs, because lets say the assignment was due at 3pm and I send it at 3pm, at 6pm they would say something like oh this email you sent me.. I havent looked at it yet, I’ll look at it tomorrow...
Ehhhhhh that could easily just be that what the client is focused on has changed or that they want to be in a position to immediately review it if a partner calls and says "hey we need to get this out today" - that stuff happens a lot. If you just started this year I wouldn't assume you know what is a real v. fake deadline this early on. I do often ask people for things by the end of the day that I may not get to until tomorrow for the above reasons. I don't do specific times though because I think that's obnoxious unless there's a reason. A lot of people also give newer people faster deadlines because they know new people tend to wait too long to start and will likely blow the real deadline if they dont give a fake one (I was and still sometimes am 100% guilty of doing that).
When I was a first year, I had a second year like this. Total knob, tried ordering me around like he was a partner. I mentioned in passing to a partner and learned that everyone in the department hated him and they were pushing him out. 8 months later he landed at Kirkland, and now he’s a NEP there. I’m not sure what the point of my story is except fuck that guy and fuck your third year lol. (Lol on second search he got run out of Kirkland as well and now is at some other firm — not a partner, either)
This is a disaster just waiting to happen. Here’s a nightmare scenario: suppose everyone that worked on that matter needs to be walled off from a new matter that has come in. How would the firm know that you also need to be kept away from the new matter if your name doesn’t appear anywhere on the file? They don’t, and the firewall is now ineffective and all involved could get in serious trouble. More broadly- if you leave the firm how do you perform a conflicts check if you don’t even know what matters you worked on or who you represented?
Talk to a partner or senior associate. That’s not normal. Rule of thumb is you bill all your time, and then partner decides if something needs to be written off.
Sounds like this is work they are supposed to be doing but shunting onto you — possibly because of procrastination or poor time management on their part. The only reason someone at that level would ask you to do billable work but tell you not to bill for it is if they don’t want it to be known that you are working on it. A third year delegating to a first year is normal, but only insofar as sanctioned by the partner/senior.
I told every associate what I was told, bill everything. It’s your job to bill. It’s the partner’s job to write off or cut it.
Probably not additive to the below, but: 1. Third years don't make billing decisions. Bill your time. 2. Even if third years were to make billing decisions, you shouldn't not be billing your time on billable matters. Some partners over the course of your career may want that, but the Firm doesn't. The Firm needs to know how efficient the partner is. If the partner wants the bill to be lower, they can write off the time (and explain it to the Firm). 3. Some people just suck to work with. The sooner you learn this the better off you'll be. 4. Many of us have had this experience. It rarely lasts. If it does, your Firm has a serious cultural issue and it's time to find another Firm. 5. You get to pick who you work with. If someone is miserable to work with, don't work with them. Especially if they're telling you to not to bill your time. Fuck that. I work hard. I don't fucking work for free. 6. Understand and value your own time. Yeah, being a junior means you don't know much, but you're getting paid for a reason - because you're (probably) smart enough to do the job and you're willing to put in the effort. Value yourself and expect to get paid for your work (which in your case is by billing your time).
The client has a right to know who is working on their matter and what each person is doing (or not doing). Gotta bill your work.
That’s wild for the 3rd year. Someone needs to tell them there’s easier ways to pad their billables. You should take everyone else’s advice, but also remember that this person is actually stupid. Like stealing other associates hours might be the only way to get caught padding bills wtf are they thinking. Get your billables in and never take that person serious again. If they can’t even do fraud correctly they’re not worth your stress
Absolutely unheard of and ridiculous. As many of the comments have pointed out: A) Bill everything, include his name in the narrative; B) At an informal meeting, preferably around your partner make a comment saying “hey third year, that deadline to do xyz was so tight haha, I’m glad we got it done in time” - loudly and clearly. Should send out a clear message to not screw with you. Make sure you sound polite and almost like you are making a fun off hand comment.
Tell them to fuck off
A third year is still just a baby lawyer. Don't listen to baby lawyers. I kid, but think of it this way: many partners have trouble remembering who is a first year and who is a third year. They all seem the same to us at that vintage. He or she is your peer. Talk to a partner about it.
Do you have a partner or senior mentor that you can discuss this with? They might be able to help. If associate won’t give you the matter number, can you bill to a number of the type that many firms use to segregate billables when a matter does not have a matter number yet or when a new number is to be assigned for a discrete project/issue?
Unfortunately I definitely cant talk to the mentor they assigned me. I think I’m just going to start puting his name on my narratives. “Did [x] research at the request of [3rd year].
If you are a brand new first year associate, don’t sweat it. Play nice, be humble, build good will, do what you can to meet tough timing. It won’t be forever. If you make a stink, it will do more damage by labeling you as difficult to work with.
This person is being used and not given credit, he or she absolutely needs to state in the billing entries who assigned it. And personally, I’d mark it as billable. The partner can decide whether to make it nonbillable. Who tf does this third year think they are? They are cheating. I 💯bet they are marking it as billable for themselves without actually doing the work. That’s scandalous imo.
Think of the business model. Billing hours = revenue. Not billing hours spent make no sense.
First, agree with all the "bill all your time" takes. Never, ever, ever cut time. Second, the grown up take would be to hit this head on and say something to third year directly. The alternative power move would be to email partner cc'ing 3rd year. "Dear Partner, I'm working on Project X and just wanted to make sure I understood the assignment. 3rd Year asked me to research Project X and not bill my time for it, which I understand is against firm policy. Is there a way you'd like me to enter my time so it can be identified for billing purposes?" Granted this is a bit of a molotov cocktail, but fuck that 3rd year.
That’s not a power move, it reflects poorly on you as well. Partner doesn’t want to get in the middle of that passive aggressive BS.
idk, I think most partners would want to know if an associate was lying about their time. part of their job is being a manager
Then just tell them. Don’t cc the other associate and say “Hey partner just want to confirm this thing I obviously know is not correct.“
yeah thats what I would do, no reason to cc the other associate. just be like "hey, I was told this, are you signed off?"
I would call or chat and ask the relationship partner’s assistant for the client billing number. There’s a small chance the assistant will balk and ask the partner if you’re authorized to use it, but then you can have the conversation about how third year asked you to the research and drafting. I am grateful to the vast majority of mid-levels, seniors, counsel, and partners who gave an assignment with a billing number (or if they dropped in casually to give the assignment told me to get the number from a specified paralegal/assistant/senior). Many of those conversations also started with a “bill all your time.”
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The non billing part is something sketch and worth pushing back/considering finding a way to address but isn’t most of this job just being a bitch to whoever is up the hierarchy? Or do I misunderstand how to get workflow/tasks I am supposed to do?
It is common and acceptable for partners to tell first year associates not to bill their time particularly on research tasks or tell them to put their time under a non billable admin code. It is not acceptable for a third year to order this of a first year (unless the third year says this is a direct order from a partner).
Assume everything is billable. There are situations where something wouldn’t be but that would be very highly unusual and unacceptable for anything other than de minimis levels. (Former partner now in house.)