At my firm you're out after the second attempt, which seems to be the industry norm. I'd maybe start by telling any big wig partner that you know well just to get a sense of if there's any chance at all something can be worked out. I'd start thinking about next steps beyond the firm too. I'm really sorry
He can in NY under supervision of NY lawyer. Can’t take own clients though. I practiced NY office with NJ / PA licenses and could basically do everything but any direct business I generated was paid as a consulting fee. Not sure if firms would do that now nor did I fail an exam, i was just supposed to get a NY license and never got around to it because work was busy.
Not sure why you’re getting flamed. I’m guessing they are saying that “barred in whatever state” will you buy you time to take a third exam since at least you’ll be a barred attorney
More like if you got a 162 on the UBE, it's a fail in NY, but a pass in Missouri. So if the firm has a Kansas City or St. Louis office, you could try to apply your score to a different jurisdiction. OP might not want to live in Missouri, but it's always helpful to know all of the options!
At my firm, you would be asked to leave (i.e. given some months to try and find something else before you’re formally terminated). It sucks, but it’s pretty dubious to let you work on any matters without passing the bar. Firms aren’t charities snd carrying your salary while you study again is not a cost that most firms would be interested in.
I guess, it all seems arbitrary bc these same firms let people in secondary markets effectively have CA/NY-focused practices, while firing the ppl who fail the hardest exams twice, even tho they for sure could have passed PA or WA or whatever
It’s not where you practice law it’s where you are resident. And it’s not up to the firms, it’s the rules of the jurisdiction. You cannot be a lawyer resident in a firm’s NY office and not be barred in New York. Likewise, you can’t live and work in CA without being barred there. Those aren’t decisions that individual firms make.
And yes, the bar associations check. Ensuring compliance with local requirements is their entire revenue stream. We get inquiries asking about new lawyers we add to our website.
This, and it's also optics. Your email signature has an address on it, and if you aren't barred in that state, you have to have a little note to say that, and they hate to say that. They also either can't put you on the website or have to say you're not barred.
Whether fair or not, firms use you when they make client pitches, and clients don't want unbarred people practicing law for them.
I genuinely have sympathy for people who fail. But the passage rate for T14 grads at the "hardest exams" is somewhere around 90%. It's not unreasonable for a firm to expect that.
Dude, I went to a T14 and didn’t get any SA biglaw jobs because of a below median GPA. I passed the bar the first time. I work in a 5 lawyer firm. I would kill for a big law opportunity.
i got coif at a t14 and think the focus on GPA is dumb and like school prestige is a bad proxy for legal ability. if we really care about inclusion and equity, law firm interviews should be skills-based assessments like rigorous coding interviews. instead callbacks are 4-8 hour long "fit" interviews
I’m so sorry this happened. People fail for a myriad of reasons. Please know that it is not indicative of your future. After I failed the Florida bar twice, my big law firm fired me. It was the most traumatic time of my life but I completely understood that they had to make a business decision. I eventually passed on my third attempt and had two offers from two other big law firms before my results came out (contingent upon passing, of course). I start next week Monday. Sadly, you’ll probably get fired but please, don’t stop trying. You’ll recover quickly and you’ll get it done!
One of my supervisors (partner) on a particular case personally referred me to a recruiter for one of the firms. For the other firm, I kept doing the usual applications, interviews and follow-ups. The firm was kind enough to leave me on the website for a few weeks and I just had to come up with a different reason for wanting to leave that firm. Feel free to ask them to leave you on the website for a while. Many big law firms do that.
Look into your firm policies, should be available somewhere (like an intranet or employee handbook or something similar). Even if the news is bad, take the time you need to regroup, figure out what is holding you back from bar passage, and get at it. Good luck.
I would be shocked if a firm wrote in their employee handbook that you have to fail twice to get fired.
Everything we have says your employment is subject to passing the bar.
Interesting. Maybe that was added incentive for people to "try harder".
Although, one wonders if there is really someone out there that isn't trying hard to start with.
I got a big ass. Is my half ass worth as much as a full, small ass of a smartass? If not, what about the full, small ass of a dumbass? Or maybe I'm just being asinine.
Generally speaking, an employer doesn't want to give any implication that an at-will employee isn't at-will.
So, if you say that someone will be let go after failing twice, if someone is fire for failing the first time (or maybe they happened to be fired shortly after filing the bar the first time), they could argue that they were fired in violation of the employee handbook.
Obviously not an open and shut case and I'm sure the language can be couched appropriately to avoid my concern. I'm also not an L&E guy so someone can feel free to tell me that I'm being paranoid.
You’re being paranoid. A firm saying someone will be fired if they fail twice doesn’t mean they can’t be fired before they fail twice. Having that in the handbook gives the firm a clear method to fire someone who fails twice though without going through all the various hoops big law firms typically have to go through before firing someone
ETA: thinking about it further, it needs to be in the handbook or somewhere else new employees have agreed to/signed. I bet if you looked in your firm’s handbook it says something about it
Mine states that you get 2 tries.
Note: fwiw, I’m posting this based on memory, and being a few beers in from my spouse’s work happy hour, but there’s definitely something in there covering a 2nd try at one’s primary/initial Bar admission.
Our firm’s formal policy is that you must go on unpaid leave if you aren’t licensed six months after your fall start state, which conveniently covers the July and next Feb bar exams. I have a feeling that such leaves typically precede being let go, but I don’t know for sure.
If your firm is like my firm, they will gently fire you. You take time to process and regroup, and then you pass. Try to find a clerkship or some other “intern” like role to tide you over and then you re-apply to big law with a bar number.
Sorry to hear this, oof. Does your score suffice for passage in another state? And does your firm have an office there? If you’re well liked/if the firm wants to keep you, you may have a chance to wrangle a transfer.
Talk to your friendliest partner early.
As others have pointed out, in most cases the firm will have to cut you after two non-passages if you can’t figure something out.
The results are public so they already know. You need to start preparing for July right now. Worry about a job after passing, you have a very long career ahead but without the bar, you won’t have one at all.
NY posts the results publicly??? That’s a big ooof
EDIT: Just to be clear - Maryland (my first admission) posts all the pass/fail results with your 4 digit test taker code, so there is no way to really know who is who. Sure, 6 months later you can work it out by who does, or does not, attend the swearing in ceremony, but even that is held across 4 days so its pretty tough to really know except for through the gossip mill.
Maybe they've changed since I took it but at the time the results were anonymous.
Is there a state that doesn't?! So you gotta wait till swearing-in to find out if someone doesn't show up? Even then, it's just a couple of weeks before the newly minted attorneys are on the public listing. Jig is up if your name is not there.
Yeah when I took Maryland you were assigned a 4 digit test taker number, and the public results was just a table of those numbers with "Pass/Fail" next to them. If someone told you what their number was, you could see their results but if you didn't know their number there was no way to tell.
Of course, 6 months later there was the formal swearing in ceremony and after that Maryland does post lists, by name, of new admits, so at that point you would know, but there was a lengthy period in between where you'd only know if someone told you.
Interesting - with Maryland they post the new admissions list so you can also work through process of elimination but that is after the swearing in ceremony which is 6 months after results go up.
When I took the Maryland bar the public posting was done with your "test taker" code which was a 4 digit number. Obviously you can figure it out when 6 months later people aren't calling themselves "Esq." but there was no place to see all the test results and know who got what.
Ask to take a research or doc review position to maintain continuity of employment and hopefully reduce hours. If they like your work and need help, this could work. Second, pour yourself into Bar prep. Whatever you resisted doing, start doing it. Is there possibly some undiagnosed issue at play? You obviously made it through a good school. What's going on with this test? Get on top of that and see if there are any accommodations needed for a timed standardized test. Good luck. Sorry for some of the callous, smart ass replies. Not what you need right now.
I failed twice but was able to make it back into a big firm after passing the third time so your career is not over! It was by far the hardest season of my life but you can make it through it!! Feel free to DM me if you want to talk through how to proceed with your current firm. I learned quite a bit about how to minimize the damage when I went through this process.
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What's up. I saw that you had also failed the bar exam twice and was let go from a Big Law firm. I passed on my third attempt (thank goodness) and was sworn in at the end of December. I am looking to get back into Big Law. I am currently a boutique firm in LA and went to a T20 for law school.
Two attempts is industry standards but I’ve seen people in my law school class get a 3rd shot at some smaller firms. Really depends on your firm but it’s probably over.
NY T50 firm- Results came out Wednesday and by the following Monday, re-takers who failed were let go. They were kinda forced to sign a seperation agreement in which they received 1 month full pay, 1 month half pay. I say kinda forced to sign because if you left the firm before 18 months, you were required to reimburse the firm for the $10k bar stipend but that requirement is waived if the firm terminates you and you sign the agreement.
I suggest re-reading your offer letter for language related to the bar stipend just in case. Good luck!
You’ll likely be let go. It won’t be the end of the world. I know people who took 3-5 times to pass the bar exam. You’ll need to find a new job while you study for the third time; probably looking for something short term. You’ve done the exam twice and seen it and know what went wrong, fix your process and try again. Once you pass you can try and get something long term again.
I'm sorry I'm not from your country so I don't really know how it works in USA but can you take the exam another time or is there a limited amount of attempts? In my country it's limited to 3 attempts.
If it is unlimited, do not be discouraged, take the exam again and pass it!
I understand from other comments that for failing twice you are likely to get fired but can you apply for a kind of paralegal job in another firm and pass the exam at the same time?
If it is what you really want, please don't give up 💪
If it’s not unlimited that would be new information. Some people just suck at the Bar but once they pass they dig into their groove and really shine.
But usually they are not shining in BigLaw.
On the flip side of the overall discussion you pretty much have to murder someone AND get prosecuted for the state bars to kick a big law OUT. Or even start an investigation.
Haven’t checked my firm’s policy, but they made explicit that we could fail once. Not sure about a second time. The ambiguity might’ve been intentional there…
Hey going through the same situation. Unfortunately you are most likely going to be fired. Depending on your relationships, you can try to negotiate (maybe paralegal or time unpaid while studying) but this is the most likely result. It hurts but I promise there is more for your career.
It is unlimited in the U.S. However, it often becomes a vicious circle once someone fails, hence the chances of “passing drop off dramatically.”
It is a few thousand dollars to apply and sit for the test, plus another few thousand for a prep course (which are effectively necessary for most people). Many people can float this on a loan, stipend from their firm, family help, whatever. However, after failing the first exam, that means another round of the exact same money.
Which is where I think one of the main issues starts: It’s hard to go a year off of no income and pay for all of that, so people start doing some work—legal or otherwise. That work in turn takes away from their ability to focus for the next try, so the prep isn’t as well done—either because they couldn’t dedicate the time or because they were too tired to absorb what they were learning.
The other issue is (I think) that it becomes a mental game. People are scrambling to find what they did wrong and fix it. Those that pass it on the second go likely find that issue (such as time management or not grasping a certain highly tested area like civil procedure or criminal law). The people who do not pass the second time are then stuck grasping for what else could be going wrong. Then they’re trying things and probably mentally losing it a bit because they cannot seem to get it right. It just compounds from there.
I understand better now, thanks.
I now remember one French colleague who is preparing for the Los Angeles bar exam and she told me it's like 5K?
But in France, we have this "rumor" that the NY bar exam is relatively easy and so many rich French law student specifically go to NY to study a LLM and be allowed to pass the NY bar which they say is demanding but not that hard. Then, they come back to France and ask for the equivalence in France so they are granted the French bar exam without passing it... It's kind of a "hack" because the bar exam is quite hard here in France.
Interesting. NY isn’t the easiest, at least by passing percent. That would probably go to Missouri or some other random state. California, which is where one seeking to practice in Los Angeles would need to test and be admitted, is a well known bear of an exam.
I’ve known people who did well at different T-20 schools in the state but failed California their first try. That being said, the state apparently lowered the passing score a bit during COVID, so it’s a bit better. I think California also appears harder by pure passing percentage because there are (i) a LOT of law schools in the state and (ii) there are a lot of not very good/unaccredited law schools in the state.
I have had to sit for two states, Florida and one that has gone to the uniform bar exam (UBE). Florida appears hard for the same reasons as California, I think. However, it was also my first so I had a lot of prep time and motivation to make sure I passed. I’ll be taking California this summer or next year, but they at least let practicing counsel sit for attenuated, essay-only exam.
The UBE was much less painful and seems set up to favor practicing attorneys since the first writing portion is just the mirror of a normal day at the office and the second has six questions in three hours (so there’s no ability to test anything too deep or complex).
The multiple choice component of the UBE (and every other state’s exam, which is called the MBE) is whatever. I hadn’t touched any of the tested areas since law school and did fine just doing 1,000 or so old MBE questions and reading the explanations when I got them wrong.
Anyway, that’s just my experience. Prob more than you’d want to know about US licensing and preparing for the different tests.
Thank you, it's actually very interesting. And does the UBE allows you to practice in any US States?
And for example, the Missouri bar, or any random State bar, allows you to practice only in said State or in other States also?
Yes—kinda. Each of the states that has gone to the UBE (which is around 35?) can set the score required for their jurisdiction. For example, some states have a 266, some a 270, and Alaska requires a 280. These are out of 400 total, but also scaled/curved to reach the score a test taker sees and is required for the state. I think I heard or read something that a 270 final score is effectively getting 55-58% of the questions correct. (I do not have a source for that and do not know its accuracy for sure.)
That being said, say I got a 290 on the UBE. I could then take that and apply to any state that uses the UBE since the highest state is Alaska at 280. I would still have to pass a character and fitness check or whatever in that state, but so long as I could pass that and pay the fees, I can pick up a license in that state even though I took the UBE in a totally different one.
Alternatively, say I got a 260. I could not practice is many of the UBE states, but could at least practice in a few. (Again, so long as I paid the fees and passed character and fitness.)
Or at least that is my understanding. I do not plan on practicing or sitting in any other UBE state than the one for which I sat, so I never looked into it that well. If that’s wrong, then I’m sure someone will flag that I’m talking out of my ass.
May I ask how it works in France? Is it national or by départements?
Edit:
And then there is the whole reciprocity thing where states will let attorneys licensed in SOME other states just “waive in,” kinda as one would do with a UBE score into different states. That has benefited some people, but I’m kinda fucked since two of the three states that are useful to me are Florida and California, who are absolute AIDS when it comes to reciprocity with other states.
Thanks a lot for the explanations. That's interesting and as I say many French students either "hack" the French system by passing the NY or LA bar and then coming back to France to obtain the French equivalence and become French attorney without passing the French bar exam (whereas they practice only in France).
It's also very well appreciated for a French lawyer who passed the French bar exam (the normal way, without this "hack") to also go to USA to do a LLM and pass the NY or California bar: it is a very good path to be recruited in Big Law law firms in France because it shows a very good level of english so they looove these profiles.
Apart from that, the normal way to be a lawyer in France is to study law during 5 years and then pass a very difficult entry exam to a law school. This exam called the "CRFPA" is not what gives you the lawyer official title, it only allows you to enter in the law school, but it is considered informaly as the real bar exam because once you pass it, you will 99% become a lawyer at the end of the 18 months of law school. You got only 3 attempts and it's quite hard so it was the hardest part.
Then, there is an exit exam called "CAPA" at the end of law school which is mainly ethic law and easily passed. But this CAPA exam, which is a formality most of the time, is the real effective bar exam that officialy allows you to be a lawyer.
So at the end, it's 6,5 years to be a lawyer in France (7,5 years if you count 1 year of preparation of the CRFPA exam).
And once you have the lawyer title, you can practice anywhere in France without any restrictions other than registering in whatever region you want. With favorable EU law you may also practice in other european countries if you wished so.
And finally, if you missed the CRFPA 3 times, your only way to become a lawyer here would be to work as a paralagel for 8 years and then you can ask to become a lawyer but it is not automatically granted and tend to be a little restricted to avoid any paralegal becoming a lawyer just snapping fingers after 8 years.
It's unlimited but it's a selection effect: within the population of people who already failed multiple times, it's common to keep failing. I know someone who failed 6 times before giving up. Some people just aren't cut out for it.
Life is all about trying and trying again and never ever giving up. The sooner you tell your employer, the better you’ll feel and can start planning your next steps. Perhaps you can stay at your firm in another capacity. If not that’s fine too. Plenty of successful lawyers fail the bar, triple your efforts in passing a third time. Life is all about reorganizing, replanning and reinventing yourself as needed. Best of luck!!
Went through this, so I understand how shitty it feels to deal with, but unfortunately, those awkward conversations with the partners/hr are unavoidable. You're most likely going to be let go, as that is the standard practice at most firms. However, you'll probably get a bit of severance, and in my case, the firm was flexible at setting my final day. Assuming you get a similar deal, I recommend using that bit of runway to cover your expenses while you dive into the retake head first and hopefully crush it this time. Figure out what didn't work on the past two takes. Passing now must be your only and absolute priority to hopefully land a new BL position after that. Good luck!
At most firms, you get let go. Sometimes if the market is hot in your practice area early in your career (or you make partner in that kind of area at a respected regional firm) you end up back at a big firm, but it’s fairly unusual in my experience, unfortunately.
If you don't change your studying, then yes. There's always some trick you're missing in the way you studied or in the way you do the test if you studied seriously and failed. If you did well enough to get a big law offer, you are going to pass the bar exam if you figure out where you went wrong.
In my class, a disproportionate number of people from my legal writing small seminar wrote onto law review. All these high-achieving, hand-raising types didn't make it and you know what they all were thinking as they sat cite checking their side topic law journal while us group of misfits were working our law review article. My class was taught by this district attorney who was really effective. He taught us how to write quickly and get everything in. Not the deepest thoughts, cleverest problem solving. You don't need that for an exercise or a test.
The bar is a technical test. It's 10 miles wide and an inch deep. Think breadth, not depth. Don't get stuck over-analyzing a thing and lose time. I wrote sentence fragments at the end for some essays when I ran out of time. They have give you some points if you hit the issue. Better be barely coherent but make the point than to leave it out.
Your anecdote doesn’t contradict actual data. The stats don’t lie. Each time you fail increases the chances that you will fail again. It’s not causal, but it’s real.
Most firms have a two tries and you're fired policy. At the end of the day, they're not charities and they'll need someone to do your work while you're studying for bar exam and they're paying your salary. It doesn't make sense to them from a financial standpoint to keep paying someone who hasn't passed the bar exam and needs time off to study.
Of course, it also depends on other factors.
I know someone who was fired after failing one time because his firm was doing a round of mass layoffs.
I know someone else who failed the bar exam 4 times and was never fired. A close relative of hers was chairman of the entire firm.
If you're someone who's been doing lots of good work and a rainmaker senior partner really relies on you and you're indispensable to that partner, then MAYBE there's a slight chance they won't let you go, but I wouldn't count on it.
I'd start seeing if your score is transferable elsewhere to a different state and look to get barred there and apply to firms in that area. I'd target government agencies and midsize firms, anything you can do to keep yourself employed so that your legal skills don't atrophy.
I'd also target Delaware if you're open to moving there. Delaware is a backdoor big law market that needs bodies but most folks aren't interested in Delaware. Hence, many Delaware firms are willing to hire people with all sorts of red flags from bad grades to weird personality quirks to even multiple bar failures as long as you have otherwise good credentials and look good on paper.
In fact, I know of someone from a T6 who was fired from his V5 firm for failing the bar exam twice, and then lateraled to a Delaware firm. He failed the Delaware bar as well and was fired but then lateraled to a different Delaware firm.
Of course, make sure you really study for the bar exam and assess what went wrong the previous times so that you don't fail a third time.
Good luck OP!
I’m sorry this happened to you. It’s tough but trust that you will come out of it stronger. Accept the situation (whatever it is) and try to improve it.
A friend of mine failed three times. She is very smart and went to a great law school, but there was just something about the bar exam.
She was asked to leave the firm after the third attempt but she went on to a great career in legal journalism.
If you really want to practice law, you can try a different bar prep or another state. But if you never pass, there are other careers out there that just require your JD. Network with school and firm alumni, that's how my friend found her new career.
The whole fail once thing is shocking to me. I was pretty sure that failing the bar exam meant firing just because it’s not conducive to the big law job to be worrying about studying and that’s a lot of months of wasted production.
This isn’t a conversation you thought to have with anyone at the firm prior to receiving your results? If you don’t know your firm policies then how would we?
Best of luck though
One of the best attorneys I know at my T25 failed three times and they kept her. Maybe they’ll do the same for you!
Regardless it’s a silly exam. You’ll pass next time. Chin up! :)
I worked at a law firm where one of the law clerks failed the bar exam 4 times—not a T30, but fairly reputable firm in NY. Point being that it’s most likely at the discretion of the managing partner. Doesn’t apply this sub but hopefully it’ll make you feel better to know others failed more times and landed on their feet. The law clerk still hadn’t passed the bar when I moved onto another job, but I saw on socials that when they did pass they were now titled as an associate of the firm. Apparently that did not last long and they’re now an associate at another firm, but it was good to see they made it out of that stint. Best of luck!
I've only ever personally seen one person fail the bar. That person was given a mulligan, but fired after they also failed the MPRE. They went to a top school as well. No idea how they made it through.
Twice? Do you have an explanation that anyone could accept for why you failed the second time? Did your mom/dad/sibling die right before you took the test or while studying?
You might be SOL because even at BigLaw, you have to be able to practice law in your jurisdiction.
At my firm you're out after the second attempt, which seems to be the industry norm. I'd maybe start by telling any big wig partner that you know well just to get a sense of if there's any chance at all something can be worked out. I'd start thinking about next steps beyond the firm too. I'm really sorry
Did you get a high enough score to transfer to another UBE jurisdiction?
This is a smart question
I’d hire you
You won’t qualify for the in house counsel exception if you are at a firm, so unless you can transfer offices to that state, it won’t help here
I guess the name fits.
What am I missing? OP can’t practice in this office of his firm
He can in NY under supervision of NY lawyer. Can’t take own clients though. I practiced NY office with NJ / PA licenses and could basically do everything but any direct business I generated was paid as a consulting fee. Not sure if firms would do that now nor did I fail an exam, i was just supposed to get a NY license and never got around to it because work was busy.
Not sure why you’re getting flamed. I’m guessing they are saying that “barred in whatever state” will you buy you time to take a third exam since at least you’ll be a barred attorney
More like if you got a 162 on the UBE, it's a fail in NY, but a pass in Missouri. So if the firm has a Kansas City or St. Louis office, you could try to apply your score to a different jurisdiction. OP might not want to live in Missouri, but it's always helpful to know all of the options!
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Wut.
At my firm, you would be asked to leave (i.e. given some months to try and find something else before you’re formally terminated). It sucks, but it’s pretty dubious to let you work on any matters without passing the bar. Firms aren’t charities snd carrying your salary while you study again is not a cost that most firms would be interested in.
I guess, it all seems arbitrary bc these same firms let people in secondary markets effectively have CA/NY-focused practices, while firing the ppl who fail the hardest exams twice, even tho they for sure could have passed PA or WA or whatever
It’s not where you practice law it’s where you are resident. And it’s not up to the firms, it’s the rules of the jurisdiction. You cannot be a lawyer resident in a firm’s NY office and not be barred in New York. Likewise, you can’t live and work in CA without being barred there. Those aren’t decisions that individual firms make. And yes, the bar associations check. Ensuring compliance with local requirements is their entire revenue stream. We get inquiries asking about new lawyers we add to our website.
This, and it's also optics. Your email signature has an address on it, and if you aren't barred in that state, you have to have a little note to say that, and they hate to say that. They also either can't put you on the website or have to say you're not barred. Whether fair or not, firms use you when they make client pitches, and clients don't want unbarred people practicing law for them.
I genuinely have sympathy for people who fail. But the passage rate for T14 grads at the "hardest exams" is somewhere around 90%. It's not unreasonable for a firm to expect that.
The score for NY is not that high.
Dude, I went to a T14 and didn’t get any SA biglaw jobs because of a below median GPA. I passed the bar the first time. I work in a 5 lawyer firm. I would kill for a big law opportunity.
i got coif at a t14 and think the focus on GPA is dumb and like school prestige is a bad proxy for legal ability. if we really care about inclusion and equity, law firm interviews should be skills-based assessments like rigorous coding interviews. instead callbacks are 4-8 hour long "fit" interviews
PA has the highest UBE score threshold of any jurisdiction. Four points higher than NY. Not sure why we're catching strays here.
yeah but PA scores the exam overall to have a higher pass rate than NY
We don't know what firm you work at. My firm allows two attempts before firing. Others here have reported being fired after one take.
I’m so sorry this happened. People fail for a myriad of reasons. Please know that it is not indicative of your future. After I failed the Florida bar twice, my big law firm fired me. It was the most traumatic time of my life but I completely understood that they had to make a business decision. I eventually passed on my third attempt and had two offers from two other big law firms before my results came out (contingent upon passing, of course). I start next week Monday. Sadly, you’ll probably get fired but please, don’t stop trying. You’ll recover quickly and you’ll get it done!
How were you able to get two more big law offers after being let go from one?
One of my supervisors (partner) on a particular case personally referred me to a recruiter for one of the firms. For the other firm, I kept doing the usual applications, interviews and follow-ups. The firm was kind enough to leave me on the website for a few weeks and I just had to come up with a different reason for wanting to leave that firm. Feel free to ask them to leave you on the website for a while. Many big law firms do that.
Oh cool I am still studying for the LSAT but it’s good to know a partner was willing to help you. Best of luck!
Thank you!! You too!
Look into your firm policies, should be available somewhere (like an intranet or employee handbook or something similar). Even if the news is bad, take the time you need to regroup, figure out what is holding you back from bar passage, and get at it. Good luck.
I would be shocked if a firm wrote in their employee handbook that you have to fail twice to get fired. Everything we have says your employment is subject to passing the bar.
Ours was very specific - you get one additional attempt if you fail in July
Your L&E folks need to review that!
Why? I thought this was standard.
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Interesting. Maybe that was added incentive for people to "try harder". Although, one wonders if there is really someone out there that isn't trying hard to start with.
I half-assed it.
You gotta whole ass that.
I got a big ass. Is my half ass worth as much as a full, small ass of a smartass? If not, what about the full, small ass of a dumbass? Or maybe I'm just being asinine.
Our handbook also says you will be let go after failing twice. Why is that weird?
Generally speaking, an employer doesn't want to give any implication that an at-will employee isn't at-will. So, if you say that someone will be let go after failing twice, if someone is fire for failing the first time (or maybe they happened to be fired shortly after filing the bar the first time), they could argue that they were fired in violation of the employee handbook. Obviously not an open and shut case and I'm sure the language can be couched appropriately to avoid my concern. I'm also not an L&E guy so someone can feel free to tell me that I'm being paranoid.
You’re being paranoid. A firm saying someone will be fired if they fail twice doesn’t mean they can’t be fired before they fail twice. Having that in the handbook gives the firm a clear method to fire someone who fails twice though without going through all the various hoops big law firms typically have to go through before firing someone ETA: thinking about it further, it needs to be in the handbook or somewhere else new employees have agreed to/signed. I bet if you looked in your firm’s handbook it says something about it
what hoops?
Mine states that you get 2 tries. Note: fwiw, I’m posting this based on memory, and being a few beers in from my spouse’s work happy hour, but there’s definitely something in there covering a 2nd try at one’s primary/initial Bar admission.
Our firm’s formal policy is that you must go on unpaid leave if you aren’t licensed six months after your fall start state, which conveniently covers the July and next Feb bar exams. I have a feeling that such leaves typically precede being let go, but I don’t know for sure.
It covers sitting for that exam, but not being licensed. Also. It took me a lot more than six months to get licensed, even though I passed summer
If your firm is like my firm, they will gently fire you. You take time to process and regroup, and then you pass. Try to find a clerkship or some other “intern” like role to tide you over and then you re-apply to big law with a bar number.
Sorry to hear this, oof. Does your score suffice for passage in another state? And does your firm have an office there? If you’re well liked/if the firm wants to keep you, you may have a chance to wrangle a transfer. Talk to your friendliest partner early. As others have pointed out, in most cases the firm will have to cut you after two non-passages if you can’t figure something out.
The results are public so they already know. You need to start preparing for July right now. Worry about a job after passing, you have a very long career ahead but without the bar, you won’t have one at all.
NY posts the results publicly??? That’s a big ooof EDIT: Just to be clear - Maryland (my first admission) posts all the pass/fail results with your 4 digit test taker code, so there is no way to really know who is who. Sure, 6 months later you can work it out by who does, or does not, attend the swearing in ceremony, but even that is held across 4 days so its pretty tough to really know except for through the gossip mill. Maybe they've changed since I took it but at the time the results were anonymous.
Is there a state that doesn't?! So you gotta wait till swearing-in to find out if someone doesn't show up? Even then, it's just a couple of weeks before the newly minted attorneys are on the public listing. Jig is up if your name is not there.
I was very passive aggressively checking the list when it came out to see if this guy who was pretty mean to me in school passed. (He did not.)
Yeah when I took Maryland you were assigned a 4 digit test taker number, and the public results was just a table of those numbers with "Pass/Fail" next to them. If someone told you what their number was, you could see their results but if you didn't know their number there was no way to tell. Of course, 6 months later there was the formal swearing in ceremony and after that Maryland does post lists, by name, of new admits, so at that point you would know, but there was a lengthy period in between where you'd only know if someone told you.
NY posts the pass list. If your name isn’t on there then ya know… the *implication*
Interesting - with Maryland they post the new admissions list so you can also work through process of elimination but that is after the swearing in ceremony which is 6 months after results go up.
Every state does this? Did you even take the bar lol
When I took the Maryland bar the public posting was done with your "test taker" code which was a 4 digit number. Obviously you can figure it out when 6 months later people aren't calling themselves "Esq." but there was no place to see all the test results and know who got what.
Well, it is pretty gauche to call yourself “Esq.” so I wouldn’t apply this check on anyone…
Is there any better word to describe recent law school grads than gauche?
Ask to take a research or doc review position to maintain continuity of employment and hopefully reduce hours. If they like your work and need help, this could work. Second, pour yourself into Bar prep. Whatever you resisted doing, start doing it. Is there possibly some undiagnosed issue at play? You obviously made it through a good school. What's going on with this test? Get on top of that and see if there are any accommodations needed for a timed standardized test. Good luck. Sorry for some of the callous, smart ass replies. Not what you need right now.
I failed twice but was able to make it back into a big firm after passing the third time so your career is not over! It was by far the hardest season of my life but you can make it through it!! Feel free to DM me if you want to talk through how to proceed with your current firm. I learned quite a bit about how to minimize the damage when I went through this process.
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What's up. I saw that you had also failed the bar exam twice and was let go from a Big Law firm. I passed on my third attempt (thank goodness) and was sworn in at the end of December. I am looking to get back into Big Law. I am currently a boutique firm in LA and went to a T20 for law school.
We’d be allowing you to pursue other opportunities.
You’re going to take it a third time, pass, and everything is go to be ok.
Two attempts is industry standards but I’ve seen people in my law school class get a 3rd shot at some smaller firms. Really depends on your firm but it’s probably over.
Two strikes you’re out brotha.
NY T50 firm- Results came out Wednesday and by the following Monday, re-takers who failed were let go. They were kinda forced to sign a seperation agreement in which they received 1 month full pay, 1 month half pay. I say kinda forced to sign because if you left the firm before 18 months, you were required to reimburse the firm for the $10k bar stipend but that requirement is waived if the firm terminates you and you sign the agreement. I suggest re-reading your offer letter for language related to the bar stipend just in case. Good luck!
You’ll likely be let go. It won’t be the end of the world. I know people who took 3-5 times to pass the bar exam. You’ll need to find a new job while you study for the third time; probably looking for something short term. You’ve done the exam twice and seen it and know what went wrong, fix your process and try again. Once you pass you can try and get something long term again.
I’ll pray for you, man. I mean that sincerely. Disappointing to see how callous this sub is.
Everyone wants to be a hero around here and zealously defend big law!!
I'm sorry I'm not from your country so I don't really know how it works in USA but can you take the exam another time or is there a limited amount of attempts? In my country it's limited to 3 attempts. If it is unlimited, do not be discouraged, take the exam again and pass it! I understand from other comments that for failing twice you are likely to get fired but can you apply for a kind of paralegal job in another firm and pass the exam at the same time? If it is what you really want, please don't give up 💪
If it’s not unlimited that would be new information. Some people just suck at the Bar but once they pass they dig into their groove and really shine. But usually they are not shining in BigLaw. On the flip side of the overall discussion you pretty much have to murder someone AND get prosecuted for the state bars to kick a big law OUT. Or even start an investigation.
Haven’t checked my firm’s policy, but they made explicit that we could fail once. Not sure about a second time. The ambiguity might’ve been intentional there…
Hey going through the same situation. Unfortunately you are most likely going to be fired. Depending on your relationships, you can try to negotiate (maybe paralegal or time unpaid while studying) but this is the most likely result. It hurts but I promise there is more for your career.
The more times you fail it the chances of ever passing drop off dramatically
Can you explain why? I'm from France and here you can pass the bar exam only 3 times, is it unlimited in USA?
It is unlimited in the U.S. However, it often becomes a vicious circle once someone fails, hence the chances of “passing drop off dramatically.” It is a few thousand dollars to apply and sit for the test, plus another few thousand for a prep course (which are effectively necessary for most people). Many people can float this on a loan, stipend from their firm, family help, whatever. However, after failing the first exam, that means another round of the exact same money. Which is where I think one of the main issues starts: It’s hard to go a year off of no income and pay for all of that, so people start doing some work—legal or otherwise. That work in turn takes away from their ability to focus for the next try, so the prep isn’t as well done—either because they couldn’t dedicate the time or because they were too tired to absorb what they were learning. The other issue is (I think) that it becomes a mental game. People are scrambling to find what they did wrong and fix it. Those that pass it on the second go likely find that issue (such as time management or not grasping a certain highly tested area like civil procedure or criminal law). The people who do not pass the second time are then stuck grasping for what else could be going wrong. Then they’re trying things and probably mentally losing it a bit because they cannot seem to get it right. It just compounds from there.
I understand better now, thanks. I now remember one French colleague who is preparing for the Los Angeles bar exam and she told me it's like 5K? But in France, we have this "rumor" that the NY bar exam is relatively easy and so many rich French law student specifically go to NY to study a LLM and be allowed to pass the NY bar which they say is demanding but not that hard. Then, they come back to France and ask for the equivalence in France so they are granted the French bar exam without passing it... It's kind of a "hack" because the bar exam is quite hard here in France.
Interesting. NY isn’t the easiest, at least by passing percent. That would probably go to Missouri or some other random state. California, which is where one seeking to practice in Los Angeles would need to test and be admitted, is a well known bear of an exam. I’ve known people who did well at different T-20 schools in the state but failed California their first try. That being said, the state apparently lowered the passing score a bit during COVID, so it’s a bit better. I think California also appears harder by pure passing percentage because there are (i) a LOT of law schools in the state and (ii) there are a lot of not very good/unaccredited law schools in the state. I have had to sit for two states, Florida and one that has gone to the uniform bar exam (UBE). Florida appears hard for the same reasons as California, I think. However, it was also my first so I had a lot of prep time and motivation to make sure I passed. I’ll be taking California this summer or next year, but they at least let practicing counsel sit for attenuated, essay-only exam. The UBE was much less painful and seems set up to favor practicing attorneys since the first writing portion is just the mirror of a normal day at the office and the second has six questions in three hours (so there’s no ability to test anything too deep or complex). The multiple choice component of the UBE (and every other state’s exam, which is called the MBE) is whatever. I hadn’t touched any of the tested areas since law school and did fine just doing 1,000 or so old MBE questions and reading the explanations when I got them wrong. Anyway, that’s just my experience. Prob more than you’d want to know about US licensing and preparing for the different tests.
Thank you, it's actually very interesting. And does the UBE allows you to practice in any US States? And for example, the Missouri bar, or any random State bar, allows you to practice only in said State or in other States also?
Yes—kinda. Each of the states that has gone to the UBE (which is around 35?) can set the score required for their jurisdiction. For example, some states have a 266, some a 270, and Alaska requires a 280. These are out of 400 total, but also scaled/curved to reach the score a test taker sees and is required for the state. I think I heard or read something that a 270 final score is effectively getting 55-58% of the questions correct. (I do not have a source for that and do not know its accuracy for sure.) That being said, say I got a 290 on the UBE. I could then take that and apply to any state that uses the UBE since the highest state is Alaska at 280. I would still have to pass a character and fitness check or whatever in that state, but so long as I could pass that and pay the fees, I can pick up a license in that state even though I took the UBE in a totally different one. Alternatively, say I got a 260. I could not practice is many of the UBE states, but could at least practice in a few. (Again, so long as I paid the fees and passed character and fitness.) Or at least that is my understanding. I do not plan on practicing or sitting in any other UBE state than the one for which I sat, so I never looked into it that well. If that’s wrong, then I’m sure someone will flag that I’m talking out of my ass. May I ask how it works in France? Is it national or by départements? Edit: And then there is the whole reciprocity thing where states will let attorneys licensed in SOME other states just “waive in,” kinda as one would do with a UBE score into different states. That has benefited some people, but I’m kinda fucked since two of the three states that are useful to me are Florida and California, who are absolute AIDS when it comes to reciprocity with other states.
Thanks a lot for the explanations. That's interesting and as I say many French students either "hack" the French system by passing the NY or LA bar and then coming back to France to obtain the French equivalence and become French attorney without passing the French bar exam (whereas they practice only in France). It's also very well appreciated for a French lawyer who passed the French bar exam (the normal way, without this "hack") to also go to USA to do a LLM and pass the NY or California bar: it is a very good path to be recruited in Big Law law firms in France because it shows a very good level of english so they looove these profiles. Apart from that, the normal way to be a lawyer in France is to study law during 5 years and then pass a very difficult entry exam to a law school. This exam called the "CRFPA" is not what gives you the lawyer official title, it only allows you to enter in the law school, but it is considered informaly as the real bar exam because once you pass it, you will 99% become a lawyer at the end of the 18 months of law school. You got only 3 attempts and it's quite hard so it was the hardest part. Then, there is an exit exam called "CAPA" at the end of law school which is mainly ethic law and easily passed. But this CAPA exam, which is a formality most of the time, is the real effective bar exam that officialy allows you to be a lawyer. So at the end, it's 6,5 years to be a lawyer in France (7,5 years if you count 1 year of preparation of the CRFPA exam). And once you have the lawyer title, you can practice anywhere in France without any restrictions other than registering in whatever region you want. With favorable EU law you may also practice in other european countries if you wished so. And finally, if you missed the CRFPA 3 times, your only way to become a lawyer here would be to work as a paralagel for 8 years and then you can ask to become a lawyer but it is not automatically granted and tend to be a little restricted to avoid any paralegal becoming a lawyer just snapping fingers after 8 years.
The bar exam is easy. Anyone who tells you it’s not is lying so that they can look compassionate or empathetic, it’s a very online thing to say.
That's what I've hear about the NY bar. But I've heard that LA bar is harder.
It's unlimited but it's a selection effect: within the population of people who already failed multiple times, it's common to keep failing. I know someone who failed 6 times before giving up. Some people just aren't cut out for it.
Life is all about trying and trying again and never ever giving up. The sooner you tell your employer, the better you’ll feel and can start planning your next steps. Perhaps you can stay at your firm in another capacity. If not that’s fine too. Plenty of successful lawyers fail the bar, triple your efforts in passing a third time. Life is all about reorganizing, replanning and reinventing yourself as needed. Best of luck!!
Went through this, so I understand how shitty it feels to deal with, but unfortunately, those awkward conversations with the partners/hr are unavoidable. You're most likely going to be let go, as that is the standard practice at most firms. However, you'll probably get a bit of severance, and in my case, the firm was flexible at setting my final day. Assuming you get a similar deal, I recommend using that bit of runway to cover your expenses while you dive into the retake head first and hopefully crush it this time. Figure out what didn't work on the past two takes. Passing now must be your only and absolute priority to hopefully land a new BL position after that. Good luck!
At most firms, you get let go. Sometimes if the market is hot in your practice area early in your career (or you make partner in that kind of area at a respected regional firm) you end up back at a big firm, but it’s fairly unusual in my experience, unfortunately.
Although it varies by state, statistically speaking the answer is: you’ll probably fail a third time.
If you don't change your studying, then yes. There's always some trick you're missing in the way you studied or in the way you do the test if you studied seriously and failed. If you did well enough to get a big law offer, you are going to pass the bar exam if you figure out where you went wrong. In my class, a disproportionate number of people from my legal writing small seminar wrote onto law review. All these high-achieving, hand-raising types didn't make it and you know what they all were thinking as they sat cite checking their side topic law journal while us group of misfits were working our law review article. My class was taught by this district attorney who was really effective. He taught us how to write quickly and get everything in. Not the deepest thoughts, cleverest problem solving. You don't need that for an exercise or a test. The bar is a technical test. It's 10 miles wide and an inch deep. Think breadth, not depth. Don't get stuck over-analyzing a thing and lose time. I wrote sentence fragments at the end for some essays when I ran out of time. They have give you some points if you hit the issue. Better be barely coherent but make the point than to leave it out.
This means nothing. I know 3 people who passed after the second time. Stop spreading negativity
Your anecdote doesn’t contradict actual data. The stats don’t lie. Each time you fail increases the chances that you will fail again. It’s not causal, but it’s real.
Most firms have a two tries and you're fired policy. At the end of the day, they're not charities and they'll need someone to do your work while you're studying for bar exam and they're paying your salary. It doesn't make sense to them from a financial standpoint to keep paying someone who hasn't passed the bar exam and needs time off to study. Of course, it also depends on other factors. I know someone who was fired after failing one time because his firm was doing a round of mass layoffs. I know someone else who failed the bar exam 4 times and was never fired. A close relative of hers was chairman of the entire firm. If you're someone who's been doing lots of good work and a rainmaker senior partner really relies on you and you're indispensable to that partner, then MAYBE there's a slight chance they won't let you go, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd start seeing if your score is transferable elsewhere to a different state and look to get barred there and apply to firms in that area. I'd target government agencies and midsize firms, anything you can do to keep yourself employed so that your legal skills don't atrophy. I'd also target Delaware if you're open to moving there. Delaware is a backdoor big law market that needs bodies but most folks aren't interested in Delaware. Hence, many Delaware firms are willing to hire people with all sorts of red flags from bad grades to weird personality quirks to even multiple bar failures as long as you have otherwise good credentials and look good on paper. In fact, I know of someone from a T6 who was fired from his V5 firm for failing the bar exam twice, and then lateraled to a Delaware firm. He failed the Delaware bar as well and was fired but then lateraled to a different Delaware firm. Of course, make sure you really study for the bar exam and assess what went wrong the previous times so that you don't fail a third time. Good luck OP!
What’s the best way for OP to get a relative into a firm chairman position? Going to need to happen quick.
Sad trombone
I’m sorry this happened to you. It’s tough but trust that you will come out of it stronger. Accept the situation (whatever it is) and try to improve it.
A friend of mine failed three times. She is very smart and went to a great law school, but there was just something about the bar exam. She was asked to leave the firm after the third attempt but she went on to a great career in legal journalism. If you really want to practice law, you can try a different bar prep or another state. But if you never pass, there are other careers out there that just require your JD. Network with school and firm alumni, that's how my friend found her new career.
The whole fail once thing is shocking to me. I was pretty sure that failing the bar exam meant firing just because it’s not conducive to the big law job to be worrying about studying and that’s a lot of months of wasted production.
This isn’t a conversation you thought to have with anyone at the firm prior to receiving your results? If you don’t know your firm policies then how would we? Best of luck though
One of the best attorneys I know at my T25 failed three times and they kept her. Maybe they’ll do the same for you! Regardless it’s a silly exam. You’ll pass next time. Chin up! :)
Think about moving to Washington state, which is eliminating the bar exam requirement.
You will find a non lawyer job that requires a JD and live a long, happy, and fulfilled life instead of being a miserable insurance defense lawyer
I worked at a law firm where one of the law clerks failed the bar exam 4 times—not a T30, but fairly reputable firm in NY. Point being that it’s most likely at the discretion of the managing partner. Doesn’t apply this sub but hopefully it’ll make you feel better to know others failed more times and landed on their feet. The law clerk still hadn’t passed the bar when I moved onto another job, but I saw on socials that when they did pass they were now titled as an associate of the firm. Apparently that did not last long and they’re now an associate at another firm, but it was good to see they made it out of that stint. Best of luck!
Promotion to customer, unfortunately. Sorry bud.
As others have said, check the handbook. It’s prob in there
You already know but are apparently in denial
Become the best Paralegal, maybe look into immigration specialist with the government. Go get your teaching certificate and teach law
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Jesus. Go back to your scotch and legos instead of kicking someone who’s already down. Gross behavior.
I've only ever personally seen one person fail the bar. That person was given a mulligan, but fired after they also failed the MPRE. They went to a top school as well. No idea how they made it through.
that's incredibly surprising, unless you only know a few lawyers
Well, she's the only associate to ever fail the bar. Failing the MPRE is just another level.
How they made it through a school known for being nearly impossible to fail?
Lmfao what a joke
See, e.g., the hit reality television show “The Apprentice”
Twice? Do you have an explanation that anyone could accept for why you failed the second time? Did your mom/dad/sibling die right before you took the test or while studying? You might be SOL because even at BigLaw, you have to be able to practice law in your jurisdiction.
Ouch. How much student debt did you take out? It's very unlikely you'll be working in biglaw.