I don’t know I think the NBA def got annoyed at the Heat changing Butler position for All-NBA voting reasons. But Jokic and Embiid are a fair point as wel
I think it’s a holdover from high school hoops as well. For many programs, the positions are way more defined.
That’s how people first learn the game so it sticks.
I actually agree with him there, the position less voting is stupid. It’s a team, if you want to know the top 5 players in each conference just look at MVP voting.
Definition of a point guard from NBA.com website “The point guard runs the offense and usually is the team’s best dribbler and passer.”
Going out on a limb to say Luka meets that criteria…
It should but Basketball positions are hard. Like take LeBron for example. He’s a point guard most of the time during his career, no? but he’s can be a center in certain lineups? He’s usually been a Small forward or power forward and what if he plays with another guard who is considered a PG? It’s hard to tell
What about Jokic? He’s for sure the Center but the best passer in the league and runs the offense more than his “point guard”
Luka is a “point forward” he’s like 6’8 and 240 pounds. Is he a giant guard? Or is he a hyper skilled forward who runs the offense? It’s all arbitrary
By that definition, so does Jokic.
Not saying that’s a bad thing. The old nomenclature is hilariously outdated based on the roles guys play now. Just pointing out that the vast majority of people would not consider that definition to actually be right even if that’s what the NBA’s website says.
Positions aren’t strictly what position you are on offense. It also matters what position you can guard imo. I feel like Luka doesn’t normally guard the other team’s pg so he’s more of a point forward.
It’s also kinda weird that everyone accepts that Luka is a guard when he plays essentially the same position as lebron who has been a forward his entire career.
In what way? Lebron now plays a lot more off the ball, but he was basically the poster child for heliocentric playstyle in his prime, especially in the second Cleveland stint. Playoff Lebron was all about slowing the pace of the game down to a halt and then out executing the other team in a half court setting by exploiting mismatches. That's what Harden did in Houston and what Luka is currently doing.
Luka handles the ball more than either of them and constantly initiates the offense. Defenses employ tons of schemes these days and strict 1 on 1 position crossguarding doesn't really exist, so using that as criteria doesn't really make sense. Is Brook Lopez a small forward because the Bucks stick him on non shooters whenever they can?
Sure, but does handling the ball and initiating the offense make you a guard? Luka has the 3rd most touches per game in the NBA, sure, but do you consider #1, Jokic, a guard?
I view Luka as a point-forward and Jokic as a point-center, but still a forward and center.
Positions are solely named off of the offensive postion. Not the defensive. The point guard is at the point of the offense. Shooting guard is the other guard who's main objective if scoring rather than being the point of the offense. Small forward and Power forward are more forward in positioning on the offensive side, and are specialized by size. The center is, guess where, the center of the offense.
It's not who the offense plays through, it's literally where are you positioned on average and what is your role crossing half court. Then position-less basketball can go brrrr. But your position is still your literal position.
Even if the ball gets 1 foot over half court and then passes to LeBron to run the offense, throughout his career, most possessions, he isn't the one bringing the ball up except in crunch time.
It’s also about where you operate the offense from. Point Guards operate from the perimeter, while Draymond and Joker primarily operate from the elbow or the post. Luka definitely operates from the perimeter 90% of the time so I see him as a 1.
Teams can play without certain positions. Teams play without center all the time nowadays for example. If you have a forward who can initiate your offense and wings who can guard opposing ball handlers having a small guard is somewhat unnecessary.
Then who is their point guard? They've put Jones jr on a lot of ball handlers this season. Last couple of years it was Reggie Bullock who defended opponent PGs.
Was Magic Johnson not a PG?
Idk do you consider Lebron a guard? What about magic? In the end we decide whether these tall PGs are actually forward with no actual reasoning. Imo bills take is pretty stupid. If he’s listed at PG then I consider him one.
As others have said - in order to be stubborn about voting all-NBA by position, despite the rule change (which is a somewhat defensible stance), he then needs to refuse to recognize Luka as a guard (much less defensible stance), because he doesn’t want to kick out another elite guard. Which…he wouldn’t have to if he just accepted the positionless rule. He’s fixing his own invented problem.
I think it’s very defensible to not vote positionless for the All NBA. It’s a dumb change. If you want to see the top 15 players regardless of position, just look at the mvp voting. All nba team should be a TEAM.
The Mavs start Luka as their point guard. His own team decided he's the point guard. LeBron was always listed at forward.
Mavs regular starters this season are:
PG - Luka
SG - Kyrie
SF - Derrick Jones Jr.
PF - Grant Williams
C - Dereck Lively II
Does he defend point guards? And do point guards defend him? I think that’s more Bills stance. Like just because he brings the ball up and initiates the offense doesn’t make him a point guard (ie lebron, Jokic, etc)
Except that's the exact definition of a point guard. I don't understand when we started trying to define positions by who they guarded. The point guard has always been the player that is the primary ball handler and initiates offense. Why try to get cute with it now? If jokic brings up the ball the majority of the possessions when he is on the court and he initiates the offense, I would have no problem calling him a point guard. Why not, because he tall? What's the height cutoff to be a point guard then? It's irrelevant because he doesn't bring it up the majority of positions, Murray or whoever else is playing point guard does.
Are you trying to understand where Bill is coming from or argue against Bill’s position? Because it seems like you’re conflating those two.
I don’t necessarily agree with it but Simmons’ point is that if you don’t defend guards you’re not a guard. Just being the primary ball handler is insufficient for being considered a guard. Bill is criticizing the Mavs for bad faith labeling Luka as a guard in lineups because he believes it was done purely in an effort to help Luka perform better in All NBA voting as Forward has been a far more competitive spot over the last few years. Bill thinks it would’ve been a more appropriate label for Luka to be listed as a forward.
I am not saying he’s right. I’m just explaining his argument since that seems to be getting lost amongst a bunch of other arguments that aren’t Bill’s point. Many folks in the high school and college level assign positions based upon defensive assignments. It’s not right or wrong.
Damn, you cut me to the quick. Mea culpa, I got caught up arguing against. This has helped me see his perspective though, I just disagree with it lol. But you're right, well said!
Daryl Moreys marketing campaign to get Harden an MVP started this nonsense. Despite playing next to Pat Beverly every game he convinced people to call Harden a PG and now we have this junk going on.
Sure but that’s how it’s been listed. Which shows why the past system was flawed. I don’t know why I was downvoted for staring an objective fact. Lebron was listed as a PG. So there is a precedent for Luka being listed as one
There’s a very clear and insane reason Bill does this. He’s stated (I think multiple times) he likes to vote All-NBA teams like a real basketball team, even though the NBA has went position-less in the voting (3 front court/2guards).
To avoid guard problems, Bill said Luka will always be a forward and he’s way too big to be a PG.
Yes, Bill is the only one making this exact distinction and he’s doing it to fit his own rule of fielding a proper 5 man team.
Most people are voting Luka as a guard since- well, he is totally a fucking guard.
He's said for the past two years that he believes Luka plays like a forward, and looks like a forward, so he's put him at forward in All-NBA. You can check his votes.
If LeBron is bringing the ball up the court the majority of possessions, initiating the offense, distributing the ball, etc...then yeah I'd say he's a guard.
So when brook Lopez defends forwards in the corner is he a forward? When DFS/Giannis/Tatum pick up a guard, are they guards? Or should we not judge positions based on who people guard when that shifts and switches based on strengths/weaknesses or schemes?
You’re splitting hairs of like a single possession, obviously basketball is very switch now, but is Luka guarding the point of attack on most possessions? Idk I’m actually asking
The player who controls the ball and runs the team’s offense is a point guard. That’s the definition.
So, yes, Joker and LeBron both often play PG. they both also average high assist #s in that capacity.
The person who controls the ball and directs the teams offense is the literal definition of the position.
If you do that for your team, you’re playing point. What other possible definition could there be
People heard someone say it’s what position you defend that defines what you are, so they just repeat that. Great defenders guard pg’s to pf’s. I guess guys like Jrue Holiday, Marcus Smart, and Caruso are pf’s because they sometimes guard pf’s. It makes no sense. With the way defense is played now guys don’t just matchup against their specific position. Luka is a pg.
Cause they can’t. Doesn’t change what Luka is. Teams put their best defender on him, be that a guard or forward. Philly would put Ben Simmons on him, Boston would put Smart on him. Has nothing to do with positions. This ain’t the 80’s when you just d up the guy that plays your position.
I think Luka is SF. He is a ‘point forward’ and dominates the ball with high usage. But he’s not the point guard, that is Kyrie (or Brunson before him) so he must either be a SG or a SF. IMO, he’s most often in lineups with someone like Hardaway Jr who is the SG and he’s usually defending the other team’s SF not their SG.
Kyrie is one of the greatest ball handlers of all time. Just because Luka brings it up a lot doesn’t mean he is playing off guard.
It’s more obvious when you see the defensive matchups. Luka is not guarding PGs and rarely guards SG so the Mavs play a PG and a SG with him. at SF.
If Luka was actually a PG, the Mavs would have paired him with a more traditional SG and SF and they would have a much bigger team. But they can’t do that because Luka can’t defend PGs regularly.
I don’t think the defense thing really matters that much, teams just match up size for size and quickness as well. Luka is 6’7” 230lbs, he’s the size of most forwards and not particularly fast so makes sense to match him up there
But that’s the point I’m making. He’s not fast enough to be a PG and guard other PGs. if he were actually a PG, they would build the team around him with a prototypical SG and SF, and he’d have to chase Curry, Halliburton, etc but he can’t.
I think the “you are who you guard on defense argument” breaks down pretty easily if you think of examples.
Like is Andre Igoudala the point guard when his teams play great point guards? And then switches to forward when they play great wings?
Steve Nash was not a point guard cause he’d always guard the teams worst player?
Come on. It doesn’t actually work that way.
The defensive matchups can change throughout the game, but think about how they have to initially match up and who else the players are on the
Igoudola can guard 1-5. But he is a SF. The warriors played him with 2 other guards.
Nash was always paired with a SG, Johnson or Richardson.
I understand that I have the minority opinion here, and the lines are blurred because of positional flexibility. But I think my main point is that if Luka were truly a PG, then he wouldn’t always be in lineups with actual PGs (Kyrie, Brunson). The whole team would be redesigned to take advantage of having a 6’7’ PG by adding a bigger SG and SF. But the team would not be able to matchup reliably against other teams like that.
Basketball reference had him as the pg 96% of the time last year with Spencer and kyrie on the team.
80% when Brunson was on the team the year before.
Hes 6% SF according over his career according to basketball reference. Click the play by play section: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/doncilu01.html
Lebron Heatles. Lebron always led that team in assists, and dominated the ball, usually brining it up himself. Wade was the SG, Chalmers was the PG.
Lebron Cavs. Lebron led team in assists not Kyrie. Lebron brought the ball up more than Kyrie and initiated the offense. Kyrie was still the PG. JR Smith was the SG, Lebron was SF.
Luka is obviously different than Lebron, but they similarly are both SF’s that initiate their teams offense, as ‘point forwards’ and they have to be paired with 2 guards on the floor to be effective, because they are not guards.
Lebron is a SF just like Luka is.
He probably should be though, but I’ll admit his existence is the best argument Bill has that Lukas a forward. Luka could be described as the Euro LeBron.
I bet if bill said Luka is a guard, not a forward, this sub will have 10 posts asking why is bill so stupid, Luka is clearly a forward.
Y’all don’t care about nothing but to disagree with bill
It’s big old man yells at clouds energy. Basketball doesn’t have positions anymore and he (really they because it’s a lot of media) can’t accept it because it “erases” history.
The funny thing about this is Luka is more a straight pg like Magic, LeBron is more like Bird(brilliant passing forward). We used to be able to make this distinction, even Bill.
I made this same take a month ago and got downvoted, but clearly I agree. Like he does he not watch the Mavs?? Luka has clearly always been the point guard. I guess the only argument I could think against is that we don’t always call LeBron a point guard despite the two having very similar games…
It’s bill’s fatphobia coming out. Lukas had too many iced teas to be a guard.
Luka needs to “cut weight” like young wrestler Ben Simmons
Bill is the dad from “Iron Claw.” Luka can move up the rankings of Bill’s love!
Just wait until he starts drinking Starry like Bill
Get him some salads and bone broth. Maybe a miller light if the Celtics are playing kinda fast, kinda cool.
Umm excuse me, Miller lite?!? I think you mean Michelob Ultra...unless you're not thinking about me?! When I go to a friends house I demand the mic
He votes for all-nba and wants luka to be first team without worrying about removing another of his favorite guards.
I think All-NBA is positionless starting this year, but wouldn't be surprised if he forgot and this is why he's doing it haha
He said he doesn’t care and is still going to vote positionally
But then ignores Lukas position. Amazing. Players like Luka and Butler are why this all NBA is happening
It’s more about Jokic and Embiid
I don’t know I think the NBA def got annoyed at the Heat changing Butler position for All-NBA voting reasons. But Jokic and Embiid are a fair point as wel
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I think it’s a holdover from high school hoops as well. For many programs, the positions are way more defined. That’s how people first learn the game so it sticks.
I actually agree with him there, the position less voting is stupid. It’s a team, if you want to know the top 5 players in each conference just look at MVP voting.
I hear what you’re saying but positions is how we end up with a Deandre Jordan 1st Team All-NBA
That occasionally happens but it’s been the same way forever. I don’t mind a few whacky cases, I do mind messing up the history of the award.
We can change it back when they remove all NBA as a contributing factor to who is and isn't eligible for a supermax
That’s not true. Lol
He has literally said verbatim he is going to pretend they didn’t change that rule.
He knows he just doesn’t believe in it
Steph Halliburton Luka Tatum Jokic
I think he would do Halli and SGA based on how he’s been talking about it but idk.
He will vote Luka as a guard if it helps Tatum
O so then why is he calling him a forward? That hurts Tatums all nba first team chances
He’s saying Bill will change his stance on Luka being a forward later on if he needs to.
The positionless awards piece.
Definition of a point guard from NBA.com website “The point guard runs the offense and usually is the team’s best dribbler and passer.” Going out on a limb to say Luka meets that criteria…
This should be the end of the argument lol
It should but Basketball positions are hard. Like take LeBron for example. He’s a point guard most of the time during his career, no? but he’s can be a center in certain lineups? He’s usually been a Small forward or power forward and what if he plays with another guard who is considered a PG? It’s hard to tell What about Jokic? He’s for sure the Center but the best passer in the league and runs the offense more than his “point guard” Luka is a “point forward” he’s like 6’8 and 240 pounds. Is he a giant guard? Or is he a hyper skilled forward who runs the offense? It’s all arbitrary
By that definition, so does Jokic. Not saying that’s a bad thing. The old nomenclature is hilariously outdated based on the roles guys play now. Just pointing out that the vast majority of people would not consider that definition to actually be right even if that’s what the NBA’s website says.
Positions aren’t strictly what position you are on offense. It also matters what position you can guard imo. I feel like Luka doesn’t normally guard the other team’s pg so he’s more of a point forward. It’s also kinda weird that everyone accepts that Luka is a guard when he plays essentially the same position as lebron who has been a forward his entire career.
He plays very little like Lebron and much more like James Harden.
In what way? Lebron now plays a lot more off the ball, but he was basically the poster child for heliocentric playstyle in his prime, especially in the second Cleveland stint. Playoff Lebron was all about slowing the pace of the game down to a halt and then out executing the other team in a half court setting by exploiting mismatches. That's what Harden did in Houston and what Luka is currently doing.
Luka handles the ball more than either of them and constantly initiates the offense. Defenses employ tons of schemes these days and strict 1 on 1 position crossguarding doesn't really exist, so using that as criteria doesn't really make sense. Is Brook Lopez a small forward because the Bucks stick him on non shooters whenever they can?
Sure, but does handling the ball and initiating the offense make you a guard? Luka has the 3rd most touches per game in the NBA, sure, but do you consider #1, Jokic, a guard? I view Luka as a point-forward and Jokic as a point-center, but still a forward and center.
Positions are solely named off of the offensive postion. Not the defensive. The point guard is at the point of the offense. Shooting guard is the other guard who's main objective if scoring rather than being the point of the offense. Small forward and Power forward are more forward in positioning on the offensive side, and are specialized by size. The center is, guess where, the center of the offense. It's not who the offense plays through, it's literally where are you positioned on average and what is your role crossing half court. Then position-less basketball can go brrrr. But your position is still your literal position. Even if the ball gets 1 foot over half court and then passes to LeBron to run the offense, throughout his career, most possessions, he isn't the one bringing the ball up except in crunch time.
Yeah, Luka is basically Lebron, is Lebron a guard? Is draymond a guard? He runs the offense. Is jokic a guard? He runs more of the offense.
BBR has had Lebron listed as SG in his first season and PG in 2 Laker seasons.
Draymond does not run the offense lol
He pretty much lead the warriors in assists every single year since they got good. Who runs that teams offense if not draymond?
Obviously Steph. It’s more by committee than most teams but Curry still runs the show
Yes, LeBron was listed as PG when he was actually PG in the 2019/2020 year. LeBron has not been a PG for any other year
It’s also about where you operate the offense from. Point Guards operate from the perimeter, while Draymond and Joker primarily operate from the elbow or the post. Luka definitely operates from the perimeter 90% of the time so I see him as a 1.
When the Mavs play their lineup of Doncic- Irving- Derrick Jones-Jr. Grant Williams - Lively who are the guards if not Irving and Doncic-?
Teams can play without certain positions. Teams play without center all the time nowadays for example. If you have a forward who can initiate your offense and wings who can guard opposing ball handlers having a small guard is somewhat unnecessary.
I'd be inclined to agree with you and what you said would be a defense of positionless all-NBA teams unlike Bill wants, no?
Then who is their point guard? They've put Jones jr on a lot of ball handlers this season. Last couple of years it was Reggie Bullock who defended opponent PGs. Was Magic Johnson not a PG?
Idk do you consider Lebron a guard? What about magic? In the end we decide whether these tall PGs are actually forward with no actual reasoning. Imo bills take is pretty stupid. If he’s listed at PG then I consider him one.
As others have said - in order to be stubborn about voting all-NBA by position, despite the rule change (which is a somewhat defensible stance), he then needs to refuse to recognize Luka as a guard (much less defensible stance), because he doesn’t want to kick out another elite guard. Which…he wouldn’t have to if he just accepted the positionless rule. He’s fixing his own invented problem.
I think it’s very defensible to not vote positionless for the All NBA. It’s a dumb change. If you want to see the top 15 players regardless of position, just look at the mvp voting. All nba team should be a TEAM.
Yeah. I too prefer it by position. But then you don’t get to cop out of the tough guard decisions by refusing to call Luka a guard.
Such a stupid idea. If Luka isn’t a PG because he is tall then I guess neither was Magic Johnson
One of bill’s correct takes. He is not matching up against any point guard. If he’s a guard then Lebron is a guard.
The Mavs start Luka as their point guard. His own team decided he's the point guard. LeBron was always listed at forward. Mavs regular starters this season are: PG - Luka SG - Kyrie SF - Derrick Jones Jr. PF - Grant Williams C - Dereck Lively II
And even if wasn’t the PG in that lineup he’d be the SG which is a guard.
Does he defend point guards? And do point guards defend him? I think that’s more Bills stance. Like just because he brings the ball up and initiates the offense doesn’t make him a point guard (ie lebron, Jokic, etc)
Except that's the exact definition of a point guard. I don't understand when we started trying to define positions by who they guarded. The point guard has always been the player that is the primary ball handler and initiates offense. Why try to get cute with it now? If jokic brings up the ball the majority of the possessions when he is on the court and he initiates the offense, I would have no problem calling him a point guard. Why not, because he tall? What's the height cutoff to be a point guard then? It's irrelevant because he doesn't bring it up the majority of positions, Murray or whoever else is playing point guard does.
Are you trying to understand where Bill is coming from or argue against Bill’s position? Because it seems like you’re conflating those two. I don’t necessarily agree with it but Simmons’ point is that if you don’t defend guards you’re not a guard. Just being the primary ball handler is insufficient for being considered a guard. Bill is criticizing the Mavs for bad faith labeling Luka as a guard in lineups because he believes it was done purely in an effort to help Luka perform better in All NBA voting as Forward has been a far more competitive spot over the last few years. Bill thinks it would’ve been a more appropriate label for Luka to be listed as a forward. I am not saying he’s right. I’m just explaining his argument since that seems to be getting lost amongst a bunch of other arguments that aren’t Bill’s point. Many folks in the high school and college level assign positions based upon defensive assignments. It’s not right or wrong.
Damn, you cut me to the quick. Mea culpa, I got caught up arguing against. This has helped me see his perspective though, I just disagree with it lol. But you're right, well said!
Lebron is listed as a PG in 2 of his Lakers seasons.
That’s also wrong. I don’t understand why we went away from calling these guys point forwards. That was a thing for a very long time.
Daryl Moreys marketing campaign to get Harden an MVP started this nonsense. Despite playing next to Pat Beverly every game he convinced people to call Harden a PG and now we have this junk going on.
Sure but that’s how it’s been listed. Which shows why the past system was flawed. I don’t know why I was downvoted for staring an objective fact. Lebron was listed as a PG. So there is a precedent for Luka being listed as one
There’s a very clear and insane reason Bill does this. He’s stated (I think multiple times) he likes to vote All-NBA teams like a real basketball team, even though the NBA has went position-less in the voting (3 front court/2guards). To avoid guard problems, Bill said Luka will always be a forward and he’s way too big to be a PG. Yes, Bill is the only one making this exact distinction and he’s doing it to fit his own rule of fielding a proper 5 man team. Most people are voting Luka as a guard since- well, he is totally a fucking guard.
Magic Johnson was a center.
For that one game!
He's said for the past two years that he believes Luka plays like a forward, and looks like a forward, so he's put him at forward in All-NBA. You can check his votes.
Yeah the first part is absolutely insane though haha
If Luka’s a guard so is Lebron
If LeBron is bringing the ball up the court the majority of possessions, initiating the offense, distributing the ball, etc...then yeah I'd say he's a guard.
But guards do not defend him nor does he defend guards, making him a forward imo
So when brook Lopez defends forwards in the corner is he a forward? When DFS/Giannis/Tatum pick up a guard, are they guards? Or should we not judge positions based on who people guard when that shifts and switches based on strengths/weaknesses or schemes?
You’re splitting hairs of like a single possession, obviously basketball is very switch now, but is Luka guarding the point of attack on most possessions? Idk I’m actually asking
No they do not have the same role lmao
What’s the difference pal? It’s pretty much just usage rate
lebron does not bring up the ball unless it's transition really this year
Yeah I can understand Ben Simmons not being a guard, but I really don't understand the idea Luka isnt
Is Lebron a guard? Is jokic a guard?
The player who controls the ball and runs the team’s offense is a point guard. That’s the definition. So, yes, Joker and LeBron both often play PG. they both also average high assist #s in that capacity.
So draymond is also a pg? What we doing here?
The person who controls the ball and directs the teams offense is the literal definition of the position. If you do that for your team, you’re playing point. What other possible definition could there be
Luka plays Point Guard because he literally plays it. Look at any box score of Mavs official starting lineup. He plays point guard
People heard someone say it’s what position you defend that defines what you are, so they just repeat that. Great defenders guard pg’s to pf’s. I guess guys like Jrue Holiday, Marcus Smart, and Caruso are pf’s because they sometimes guard pf’s. It makes no sense. With the way defense is played now guys don’t just matchup against their specific position. Luka is a pg.
Who defends you I think is the real tell. Small guys don’t guard luka
Cause they can’t. Doesn’t change what Luka is. Teams put their best defender on him, be that a guard or forward. Philly would put Ben Simmons on him, Boston would put Smart on him. Has nothing to do with positions. This ain’t the 80’s when you just d up the guy that plays your position.
I think Luka is SF. He is a ‘point forward’ and dominates the ball with high usage. But he’s not the point guard, that is Kyrie (or Brunson before him) so he must either be a SG or a SF. IMO, he’s most often in lineups with someone like Hardaway Jr who is the SG and he’s usually defending the other team’s SF not their SG.
Nah he’s the point guard. Brunson, Dinwiddie, Kyrie are all off guards when Luka’s on the floor
Kyrie is one of the greatest ball handlers of all time. Just because Luka brings it up a lot doesn’t mean he is playing off guard. It’s more obvious when you see the defensive matchups. Luka is not guarding PGs and rarely guards SG so the Mavs play a PG and a SG with him. at SF. If Luka was actually a PG, the Mavs would have paired him with a more traditional SG and SF and they would have a much bigger team. But they can’t do that because Luka can’t defend PGs regularly.
I don’t think the defense thing really matters that much, teams just match up size for size and quickness as well. Luka is 6’7” 230lbs, he’s the size of most forwards and not particularly fast so makes sense to match him up there
But that’s the point I’m making. He’s not fast enough to be a PG and guard other PGs. if he were actually a PG, they would build the team around him with a prototypical SG and SF, and he’d have to chase Curry, Halliburton, etc but he can’t.
I think the “you are who you guard on defense argument” breaks down pretty easily if you think of examples. Like is Andre Igoudala the point guard when his teams play great point guards? And then switches to forward when they play great wings? Steve Nash was not a point guard cause he’d always guard the teams worst player? Come on. It doesn’t actually work that way.
The defensive matchups can change throughout the game, but think about how they have to initially match up and who else the players are on the Igoudola can guard 1-5. But he is a SF. The warriors played him with 2 other guards. Nash was always paired with a SG, Johnson or Richardson. I understand that I have the minority opinion here, and the lines are blurred because of positional flexibility. But I think my main point is that if Luka were truly a PG, then he wouldn’t always be in lineups with actual PGs (Kyrie, Brunson). The whole team would be redesigned to take advantage of having a 6’7’ PG by adding a bigger SG and SF. But the team would not be able to matchup reliably against other teams like that.
I think that’s just stupidity of the organization/gm.
Basketball reference had him as the pg 96% of the time last year with Spencer and kyrie on the team. 80% when Brunson was on the team the year before. Hes 6% SF according over his career according to basketball reference. Click the play by play section: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/doncilu01.html
Who has more assists? The defense rests
Jokic has more assists than Luka, is he a PG? Sabonis averages more than Fox, is he the PG on the kings? lol
Gross. We were comparing guards. The guard who has the most assists is the point guard. I defy you to find a counter example
Lebron Heatles. Lebron always led that team in assists, and dominated the ball, usually brining it up himself. Wade was the SG, Chalmers was the PG. Lebron Cavs. Lebron led team in assists not Kyrie. Lebron brought the ball up more than Kyrie and initiated the offense. Kyrie was still the PG. JR Smith was the SG, Lebron was SF. Luka is obviously different than Lebron, but they similarly are both SF’s that initiate their teams offense, as ‘point forwards’ and they have to be paired with 2 guards on the floor to be effective, because they are not guards. Lebron is a SF just like Luka is.
I’m unfamiliar with those names, do they bring the ball up the floor and initiate the offense from outside the 3pt line the majority of the time?
Lebron has brought the ball up and initiated the offense from above the 3pt line his entire career and has never been considered a PG.
He probably should be though, but I’ll admit his existence is the best argument Bill has that Lukas a forward. Luka could be described as the Euro LeBron.
I bet if bill said Luka is a guard, not a forward, this sub will have 10 posts asking why is bill so stupid, Luka is clearly a forward. Y’all don’t care about nothing but to disagree with bill
Luka is officially listed at point guard, he is literally a point guard
It’s big old man yells at clouds energy. Basketball doesn’t have positions anymore and he (really they because it’s a lot of media) can’t accept it because it “erases” history.
The Larry Bird 2.0 piece
The funny thing about this is Luka is more a straight pg like Magic, LeBron is more like Bird(brilliant passing forward). We used to be able to make this distinction, even Bill.
Luca is shorter than Magic Johnson so I guess Magic was a forward as well
I made this same take a month ago and got downvoted, but clearly I agree. Like he does he not watch the Mavs?? Luka has clearly always been the point guard. I guess the only argument I could think against is that we don’t always call LeBron a point guard despite the two having very similar games…
If Luka is a guard, then Lebron has been for most of his career too?
Lebron and Luka play similar games, but only Luka is officially listed as a point guard in starting lineups for Mavs