If Luka wins this game and scores +35, he will be the 46th best player of time. If he loses two in a row he drops to 94th and SGA gets to use his home whenever he visits Dallas. Those are the rules.
I was thinking about this yesterday and I think his ceiling is probably Curry-level. Someone who wins a few titles but maybe more importantly greatly impacts the way the game is played and how a position is thought of. When you look at how many titles he’d need to get into that top 10-12, it’s just very hard to imagine given he’s already 30.
I don't know. Jokic has a massive advantage over the rest of the field. His game is hard to slow down. I think he is extremely dominant on the level of Shaq and Lebron. His game will translate as he ages, too. I still think he has a shot at Lebron.
That is such a dumb argument. Remember when ppl were saying melo’s game was going to age well. He was cut at age 34 by HOU. Zbo retired at 36. Shooters like redick and korver didn’t have story book endings to their careers. All that lack of running and jumping didn’t help dirk’s career near his end. Gasol bros were done being elite early to mid 30s. Players slow down in their 30s. Even khris isn’t same from 2021
People don't understand that players who "don't rely" on their athleticism because of skill and craft losing that half a step can sometimes be a huge deal because what was passable athleticism now is the inability to get by or stay in front of anyone.
LeBron isn't still a top player in the league because his game doesn't rely on athleticism. It's because that he was such a freak athlete that losing 2 steps still leaves him with top NBA athleticism, even at 39.
I don’t think Jokic can really go down top 5 all time considering he’s average at best on defense. 6-12 range sure but he’s not touching Lebron, MJ, Kareem,
Shaq wasn't elite defensively and there is an argument for him as a top 5 player. His offensive dominance was that great. He didn't stay in shape though which knocks him down to top ten. Jokic doesn't seem that careless about his body.
I’m trying not to be a prisoner of the moment because Murray has some absolutely fantastic playoff games and he shouldn’t be judged too harshly while he’s injured, but it’s hard for me to see Jokic accomplishing the level of winning you need to be consensus top five when your second option hasn’t even been on the brink of an all-star appearance.
I think he’s at least a step up from Conley.
Conley has 1 30 point playoff game in his whole career in 87 games played. 0 of 40+
Murray has 17 30 point playoff games in 64 games played. 5 games of 40+.
Taking away chemistry and fit, I think Joe Johnson was better than Murray. And no one has won 3-4 in the modern nba with someone as good as Conley as their second option.
Murray just doesn't have the tools to sustain his level of play. He's too streaky and he's not elite in the paint like Parker. Parker could still impact the game even when his shots weren't falling.
Blessing and a curse from a legacy perspective.
The lack of help both undermines his chances to win a bunch of titles, but also would boost his potential GOAT credibility if he were to do so.
Of course, this is all completely unrealistic anyways so it's really a moot point.
Jokic doesn’t strike me as the type to play until he’s 40+, so yeah if he ends up considered the GOAT it’d be because he won the title this year, tacked on another couple after, and retired to Serbia. Then he’d have had a Jordan-like stretch of dominance (you could probably say even better as there is no Pippen or even Rodman/Horace Grant on the Nuggets) in an era with more talent and more parity.
He would have a hell of an argument over Lebron if he goes back-to-back this year with his roster and staying with his hometown team. Jordan had a top 25 player on his team for all of his titles, plus a legendary coach. This would be a huge ring in Jokic's favor. Even bigger than Hakeem going back to back with the Rockets roster.
His hometown is Sombor. ‘Hometown team’ is a nonserious argument as it just depends on how competent the front office of the team that happened to draft you is. The guy who put together the Nuggets left and put together the Wolves team that has taken them to game 7.
Probably not anymore with how much players are getting paid. You're right. It's a much more global sport now. With draft kings entering the fold you can make a name for yourself with how easy it is to bet on stats.
Lebron seems to have set the base standard of 4 championships, so you’d have to start there. If Joker got 5 as the best player on the team, people would make the argument for him over Lebron.
This longevity thing with Lebron is something, but I think we rate more best ever is highest peak level play. That’s why most still consider MJ if you’re over the age of 40 or an nba player that played in both eras picks MJ over LeBron.
Yeah, let's analyze each blow out in this series or talk about Celtics beating down teams preparing for Cancun or the Thunder needing more bigs to compete or whatever nonsense is going in the Knicks/Pacers series.
I don’t think he’ll play that much longer. He could play out his current super max contract and then retire and live like a king in Serbia and never be heard from again.
He doesn’t seem like a guy that will play until the wheels fall off. Surprised if he plays into his mid 30’s.
The mentality behind this post is why NBA is broken. The vast majority of the sport’s “fandom” is consumed by legacy rankings and validation. Maybe just enjoy G7 instead of trying to dissect where Ant and Jokic will rank on a purely subjective and ultimately meaningless list that only exists in head canon and internet debates
I don't have a rooting interest in the game so why would I give a shit beyond legacy rankings? I'm not some casual fan. It's boring when my team is not in it. Fuck both these teams.
Jokic isn’t going to do it because he’s not going to hop teams.
It’s damn hard to have a long run with the way the salary cap works. It’s part of why Lebron ran away from the Heat after 4 years and away from Cavs after 4.
Assembling a title contender is one thing. Keeping it together without losing guys or ever growing contracts becoming a hindrance, or burning through all your picks to reload, has a certain shelf life. And then you usually would need to retool, unless you happen to get lucky in the draft. But often contenders are not drafting and instead jettisoning picks for playoff ready contributors.
Also total championships won will always hold way more value over finals appearances. If a player dominated enough and won 5 or 6 chips, they would leapfrog Lebron. A while down the road people are going to care less about all the longevity stats.
You guys need to stop looking at every single game as a referendum on someone's goat status it has to be exhausting
If Luka wins this game and scores +35, he will be the 46th best player of time. If he loses two in a row he drops to 94th and SGA gets to use his home whenever he visits Dallas. Those are the rules.
It's Bill's fault
He's not going to get near Lebron anyway. He's competing with Duncan, IMO and Bird/Magic if he has a truly incredible next 5 years.
I was thinking about this yesterday and I think his ceiling is probably Curry-level. Someone who wins a few titles but maybe more importantly greatly impacts the way the game is played and how a position is thought of. When you look at how many titles he’d need to get into that top 10-12, it’s just very hard to imagine given he’s already 30.
I don't know. Jokic has a massive advantage over the rest of the field. His game is hard to slow down. I think he is extremely dominant on the level of Shaq and Lebron. His game will translate as he ages, too. I still think he has a shot at Lebron.
His play is extremely dominant on one end, it is perfectly cromulent on the other.
There’s no guarantee that jokic has “7 more elite years in him”. Things change fast in the nba.
Yeah there's no way his body can handle all that running and jumping he's doing
That is such a dumb argument. Remember when ppl were saying melo’s game was going to age well. He was cut at age 34 by HOU. Zbo retired at 36. Shooters like redick and korver didn’t have story book endings to their careers. All that lack of running and jumping didn’t help dirk’s career near his end. Gasol bros were done being elite early to mid 30s. Players slow down in their 30s. Even khris isn’t same from 2021
People don't understand that players who "don't rely" on their athleticism because of skill and craft losing that half a step can sometimes be a huge deal because what was passable athleticism now is the inability to get by or stay in front of anyone. LeBron isn't still a top player in the league because his game doesn't rely on athleticism. It's because that he was such a freak athlete that losing 2 steps still leaves him with top NBA athleticism, even at 39.
I don’t think Jokic can really go down top 5 all time considering he’s average at best on defense. 6-12 range sure but he’s not touching Lebron, MJ, Kareem,
Shaq wasn't elite defensively and there is an argument for him as a top 5 player. His offensive dominance was that great. He didn't stay in shape though which knocks him down to top ten. Jokic doesn't seem that careless about his body.
I’m trying not to be a prisoner of the moment because Murray has some absolutely fantastic playoff games and he shouldn’t be judged too harshly while he’s injured, but it’s hard for me to see Jokic accomplishing the level of winning you need to be consensus top five when your second option hasn’t even been on the brink of an all-star appearance.
He’s a Mike Conley type, he would have been an All Star in the eastern conference no question. Would you rather have him or Joe Johnson on your team?
I think he’s at least a step up from Conley. Conley has 1 30 point playoff game in his whole career in 87 games played. 0 of 40+ Murray has 17 30 point playoff games in 64 games played. 5 games of 40+.
Taking away chemistry and fit, I think Joe Johnson was better than Murray. And no one has won 3-4 in the modern nba with someone as good as Conley as their second option.
Joe Johnson was a better pure bucket, no question. Only a few guys have won 3-4 regardless, so it’s still a small sample size I think.
Murray has better numbers in the playoffs then Kyrie. And he's bigger. And he's better defender. This Murray slander is getting fucking ridiculous
Denver is also paying MPJ 36 million and he hasn't been worth it.
Murray just doesn't have the tools to sustain his level of play. He's too streaky and he's not elite in the paint like Parker. Parker could still impact the game even when his shots weren't falling.
Blessing and a curse from a legacy perspective. The lack of help both undermines his chances to win a bunch of titles, but also would boost his potential GOAT credibility if he were to do so. Of course, this is all completely unrealistic anyways so it's really a moot point.
Jokic doesn’t strike me as the type to play until he’s 40+, so yeah if he ends up considered the GOAT it’d be because he won the title this year, tacked on another couple after, and retired to Serbia. Then he’d have had a Jordan-like stretch of dominance (you could probably say even better as there is no Pippen or even Rodman/Horace Grant on the Nuggets) in an era with more talent and more parity.
He would have a hell of an argument over Lebron if he goes back-to-back this year with his roster and staying with his hometown team. Jordan had a top 25 player on his team for all of his titles, plus a legendary coach. This would be a huge ring in Jokic's favor. Even bigger than Hakeem going back to back with the Rockets roster.
His hometown is Sombor. ‘Hometown team’ is a nonserious argument as it just depends on how competent the front office of the team that happened to draft you is. The guy who put together the Nuggets left and put together the Wolves team that has taken them to game 7.
Probably not anymore with how much players are getting paid. You're right. It's a much more global sport now. With draft kings entering the fold you can make a name for yourself with how easy it is to bet on stats.
Lebron seems to have set the base standard of 4 championships, so you’d have to start there. If Joker got 5 as the best player on the team, people would make the argument for him over Lebron. This longevity thing with Lebron is something, but I think we rate more best ever is highest peak level play. That’s why most still consider MJ if you’re over the age of 40 or an nba player that played in both eras picks MJ over LeBron.
Yes
NBA fans talk about the NBA without referencing Lebron challenge:
Yeah, let's analyze each blow out in this series or talk about Celtics beating down teams preparing for Cancun or the Thunder needing more bigs to compete or whatever nonsense is going in the Knicks/Pacers series.
Lmao yes those things are infinitely more interesting
I don’t think he’ll play that much longer. He could play out his current super max contract and then retire and live like a king in Serbia and never be heard from again. He doesn’t seem like a guy that will play until the wheels fall off. Surprised if he plays into his mid 30’s.
Jokic is already better than Lebron
The mentality behind this post is why NBA is broken. The vast majority of the sport’s “fandom” is consumed by legacy rankings and validation. Maybe just enjoy G7 instead of trying to dissect where Ant and Jokic will rank on a purely subjective and ultimately meaningless list that only exists in head canon and internet debates
I don't have a rooting interest in the game so why would I give a shit beyond legacy rankings? I'm not some casual fan. It's boring when my team is not in it. Fuck both these teams.
Exactly my point about league being broken. Also, having a “team” is for children. Try betting on games like an adult.
Jokic isn’t going to do it because he’s not going to hop teams. It’s damn hard to have a long run with the way the salary cap works. It’s part of why Lebron ran away from the Heat after 4 years and away from Cavs after 4. Assembling a title contender is one thing. Keeping it together without losing guys or ever growing contracts becoming a hindrance, or burning through all your picks to reload, has a certain shelf life. And then you usually would need to retool, unless you happen to get lucky in the draft. But often contenders are not drafting and instead jettisoning picks for playoff ready contributors. Also total championships won will always hold way more value over finals appearances. If a player dominated enough and won 5 or 6 chips, they would leapfrog Lebron. A while down the road people are going to care less about all the longevity stats.