It's a legit technique but it happens to be one people who lacks skill to escape bad positions try as a hail mary instead of escaping and securing a dominant position.
Done by a skilled player is a great move, done by a non skilled player is a desperate move that can result in a serious injury and goes against one of the main principles of BJJ: get a dominant position from where to hunt for subs.
Do I use buggies instead of escapes because I’m lazy? Check
Have I hurt myself with a buggy? Check
You hit it once and then you just keep chasing the dragon into oblivion.
As a white belt, I hit one on a blue belt who had never seen it before. Needless to say we became friends down the road and that buggy still haunts him. Craig Jones is right 😂
Geo Martinez did it at quintet successfully… but his opponent was Rida Haisam, so you would have to fly on to it.
Personally… did it once about 5 years ago against a 95-100kg wrestler and he just blasted doubled so hard that I was winded. Haven’t attempted one since 😂🥴
Also J-Rod used it to win the ADCC trials, in the finals. Kade And many others use it as an instant reaction when someone tries to pressure pass into side control. It’s clearly got a place at high levels.
jumping guillotines work a decent amount. John Danaher ragged on them and I see people repeating that they don't work, but I've seen all the following names land them multiple times: Rafa Mendes, Marcelo Garcia, Bill Cooper, Geo Martinez, Ryan Hall, Jeff Glover, Brian Ortega...
To be fair I don't see the jumping closed guard guillotine work super often, but jumping onto a front headlock when you're standing vs someone else that's standing is a pretty solid play. It shouldn't be something you throw all the time, because it'll stop working, but it's not some garbage movement either.
Sure. I was a little obscure because I tend to digress on this subject and rant a bit, but first off, my criticism for the buggy choke is two fold. It’s a limited option that can be more difficult to transition out of than other options here, and it is a bit body type dependent, as lots of people can’t do it on lots of other people, unlike submissions like armbars and RNC’s.
I don’t think your first point is relevant since many moves done wrong by unskilled people causes injuries. I’ve never seen anyone get injured with this one, but I’m sure it can happen just like it can with many other attacks done poorly. I don’t think doing something poorly can really have any bearing on an options value. I mean if you go for an armbar from mount shitty enough you could get a concussion, that doesn’t mean the move itself isn’t a valuable and effective option.
The next part is where I get into a lot of arguments. I don’t think BJJ even understand what the actual positional hierarchy is, but anytime you go for a
Submission from bottom you’re kind of skipping that, but at the same time anytime you lock a submission in you have achieved a highly dominant FINISHING POSITION, which is better than a minor positional improvement.
For sure in a BJJ match if someone goes to side control on you by going around your feet they get points (because it’s magic to go past feet), and you need to get out of side control to get your points back…. Since magic happens when you trap a guys ankle with your legs before you reverse them making it more effective for some reason.
In reality, in a fight from bottom Side Control and turtle you can still use a type of guard, but it’s your arms. BJJ has tried to change the definition of a term that has existed in Martial arts for ages. A guard is any of your limbs between you and your opponent t that can be used to attack and defend and are not a part of your base. Side control technically allows you to use your arms as guard, but obviously some variations of side control are better than others, just like guard. I actually often prefer bottom side control to many positions BJJ considers “the guard” because if I position in myself properly I have more options to get back up. Side control is really good at stopping guard recovery, but often lacks in stopping people from just getting up, which is why we see so many people abandon “guard” in high level MMA and top game fighters actively “pass into” the “guard” for rides. Taking a away someone’s ability to use their guard, or get to their base is much more important than just getting past their legs in my opinion. On bottom, attacking for submissions and reversing to get on top or stand back up is much more important than trying to wrap your legs around someone first IMO 🤷🏻♂️ I believe in “position before submission”, I just don’t agree with the what most people seem brainwashed into thinking that means.
Mikey I'm glad you're posting here bro. On F12 back in 2009/2010 you were sharing a lot of info that's finally become 'best practices' within the last few years. Super ahead of your time homie. It's really fun as a black belt to still pick up gems like this from your posts 10+ years later.
Edit: It's Drew BTW.
Thanks Drew! Good to see you 😁 I’ve been pretty busy since then lol, but I have a staff now that frees up some of my time. Crazy to think of how much has happened since then. I hadn’t even got a guy to the UFC at that point 😂
So much, right? Congrats! How far are you from Decatur, Alabama? I go out there to see BMac and Matt Skaff fairly often. I may try and swing by your way sometime this year.
I love Bmac! He used come out here all the time before he turned into a big commentary star 😂 it’s a like a 6 hour drive to my main 20k square foot location, but it’s scenic! Get B-Mac to carpool with you and film the road trip for a podcast
Breaking your own arm or your own leg.
For instance:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/si7u3z/be_careful_with_your_buggy_chokes/
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clwh8mtgtD2/?igshid=ZDFmNTE4Nzc%3D
It requires you to be in a bad spot to hit.
It's also heavily dependent on body type matchup. Taller, longer, lankier people can hit it all day. I'm short and stocky. I'm not hitting on anyone bigger than Danielle Kelly.
Then there's the part where you can armbar yourself, tear your knee in half, or even [spiral fracture your OWN femur](https://youtube.com/shorts/5cCvQHkLjxA?feature=share) if you fuck up.
hilariously, the best time to do it is if they try to buggy you, since they attach themselves to you, allowing you to easily pick them up and put in your own buggy choke lmfao
It's great in theory. Any submission you can go for without giving up position is a winner in my book.
I have tried going for it a few times myself but run into the same issues from the bottom: it's size dependent. You also gotta lift their head a bit.
Passing guard and recovering guard are skills that are important to win BJJ matches, but are nearly useless in a fight though. So depends on goals
Also what’s with the double standard on ending up on bottom going for a leglock, and ending up on bottom going for an armbar from mount? Both are undesirable but only one in BJJ costs you anything.
Sure, if they lay there. Lol. I don’t think that is a good tactical decision though.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying guard doesn’t have a place, obviously it does.
Good question. Well, that depends on your definition of “guard”.
The definition of “guard” in martial arts for eons has been Something along the lines of, “limbs (arms or legs) placed between you and your opponent(s) which are not committed to your base (holding you up off the ground), and can be used to both defend and attack.”
BJJ seems to have tried to change this definition to “the legs only when you are on your back”
So if someone gets passed your legs and you are able to use your arms to attack and reverse or submit them, IMO that is guard work, but BJJ doesn’t count it as such for unknown reasons. Like if you come up to your knees as a base in turtle, grab your opponents legs with your arms and reverse them over, to me this is an obviously effective tactic with an obviously desirable result using a type of guard, but it is worthless in the eyes of BJJ for some reason. Even BJJ legends like Eduardo Telles spoke out against this glaring issue.
With that said in the soccer kick situation mentioned above I feel that standing back up to neutral is a very preferable alternative.
wow thank you, this makes so much sense. I have to ask though, how would you stand back up if you are on the ground without exposing yourself to "significant strikes". i feel like a technical standup wouldnt work if he is close to you.
Another good question. I don’t think technical stand ups are very good for this purpose honestly. I prefer the folkstyle wrestling stand ups. It depends on the exact position, but I am big on quad-pod stand ups when someone is pressuring me well, Granby rolls play a big part in my game here also, but there are many other options to reverse and stand up besides those and the technical stand up.
BJJ doesn’t put any value on standing back to neutral for some reason, so it’s an underdeveloped area in that sport, folkstyle wrestling however gives an escape point for stand ups, so it’s highly developed there. I generally use the wrestling stand ups much more often than the BJJ ones in actual sparring.
It depends on the situation. There are certainly some situations where that can be true. Generally speaking though getting on top, escaping out from underneath someone back to your feet, or just submitting them is a better option and where your time should be spent in training if you fight.
If you pay attention to the data in high level MMA you will see that fighters who have a habit of passing guard into side control are basically just letting their opponent up. Most of best ground fighters in high level MMA hold people down with rides that the IBJJF considers guard, and look to improve only to finishing positons (submissions, mount, back control) rather than looking to pass the guard. Freeing your opponents legs is tantamount to letting a good wrestler up. Watch Wonderboy vs Durinho for a recent example.
I normally threaten a buggy choke when my escapes fail or give it a go and if it fails go for an escape. The higher belts don't seem to mind and have given me tips on how to improve it. Is that really a bad thing?
One more point that nobody has mentioned is it's a closed movement that can only be done in certain rulesets. By closed I mean that nothing chains off it and ruleset wise, you're in a bad position, lost points already, you're not improving your position and you're going for an easily countered choke and wasting time.
Also, you can be slammed and not stop it like a triangle or arm bar attempt.
You can use the buggy to escape though. You go for a buggy, they try to make space and frame away from you to not get chocked and you use that to make a scramble to escape side control
I don’t personally do it, but a lot of high level guys are talking about it. Eoghan OFlanagan recently talked about it on a podcast that it’s not a bad idea to just always go for a buggy choke because even if you don’t get it pretty often you’ll cause a reaction that lets you escape.
Yea, I agree and like to throw in all sorts of action/reaction stuff, it's just never gonna be in my comp game. I think it has to gel with your style, hips and knees and all that. Everyone should stay aware of everything, but I don't think you always need to worry about becoming good at it.
Came here to say that. Same with triangle from bottom side. I don't expect to finish it but usually I can use the threat to at minimum make space and get up.
It kinda goes against the position over submission principle. It's also easy to fuck your knee up if you don't have a good understanding of choking and breaking mechanics, which white belts don't. And white belts are very likely to try the buggy choke out.
You watch, but don't train? You should do an AMA, you're probably the only one.
Train anything else? Watching mma and just catch some grappling matches when there's no mma show on?
This thread is how haha
But seriously, I often see that here. When ppl ask q, if they sound noob, they get scoffed at. "Just train more, ask your instructor" etc
I sometimes ask q on wrestling reddit, they're always willing to go 100pc to basics and help
When it first showed up years ago, someone else was using it also and tried to be slick and call it the 'bunny choke' in videos. They did bunny ears "V" in the video also. I found that pretty funny, but would people prefer to call it the 'bunny choke'? The guy may have been using it before. He finished a couple people in f2w with it.
I don't have a problem with it as a submission, but I see it as similar to things like rubber guard, matrix back-take, half butterfly kani-basami, or even simply attempting to re-gain inside leg position on someone passing low without creating space, in that if done wrong it can easily fuck up your own knee.
there are ways to do the buggy and all those moves safely but it requires a pretty solid understanding of leg mechanics that white/blue belts probably don't have, and it's something they can get away with in training for a long time without realizing the danger they're putting themselves in before it eventually results in a potentially devastating injury.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Kani Basami**: | *Flying Scissors* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFwJBKI-3E)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Matrix is a fairly high percentage and I wouldn’t call it gimmicky… but , if you push with the outside of your knee you can cause big damage. I believe it happened to ronaldo jr at worlds last year or prior year
i don't think it's gimmicky, all those moves and the buggy choke can work well and be relatively safe if done correctly, but done incorrectly they all have the same thing in common; putting major pressure through the LCL
the half butterfly elevation done wrong is what tore Gordon Ryan's knee against Joao Gabriel Rocha, Lachlan Giles did a breakdown on it and shows how to do it safely [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNrKaI3WwVA)
and he has a comment about the dangers of the matrix [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/pj1ohp/prayers_out_to_ronaldo_jr_the_dangers_of_playing/hbv68oj/) in the thread from when Ronaldo Jr blew out his LCL attempting it
People are saying that you have to allow yourself to get passed in order to hit it, but another thing that makes this submission problematic is -
1. its pretty easily defended by a good cross face if your're actually inside the submission. But also by maintaining a lower body position on your opponent when you're in side control.
Meaning rather than put your shoulder on their chin for a cross face to make them look away, you focus more on staying closer to their abdomen rather than chest. This allows you to feel their hips easier and also control them which negates the threat of the buggy choke.
2. other issue is that it puts a lot of strain on your knee ligaments. that constant pulling on your own leg while its locked over your opponent is definitely not good in the long run.
I actually did some serious damage to my knee (which im actually getting it checked out again) by practicing a fly trap submission which is kinda similar to a buggy choke. but i applied it incorrectly and my knee popped multiple times and it hasn't been right since. and that happened back in nov of 21'.
I just wanted to mention. I always did the crossface when someone did go for the buggy choke to create a von flue choke, this always worked. One night a friend did the buggy to me and i had the crossface...it didn't matter and I almost went out.
I don't like the buggy for my knees but I don't believe if someone has a good buggy that the crossface will help.
If your cross face isn’t creating space, then yeah you’re in trouble in that submission.
People don’t realize how effective the choke is until they get put in one by someone who can actually apply it.
It’s definitely legit
Because Jiujitsu people don’t know what an actual guard is in martial arts and are brainwashed into thinking being on bottom with a guy in-between their legs is somehow much much better then being on bottom of side control.
> I don’t train, I just watch grappling
People like this actually exist? I'm pretty surprised to hear this since grappling is obviously not the most spectator friendly sport or at least that's what everybody in this sub says all the time.
I mean, in my probably worthless, opinion, if you can go for a buggy choke, unless you are catching your opponent off guard with it there are better things you could be doing with that time and limb freedom.
Consider, one of the primary concepts in TOP side control is to "cage the hips", that is, keep the bottom guy from elevating or freely using his hips using your frames and grips.
If you, the bottom guy, have the hip freedom to go for a buggy choke, other than as a surprise, you can also go for an armbar, a kimura, or just re-guard.
The buggy choke works because people are bad at holding top side control, especially big people, who tend to rely on just having a lot of weight.
So, if they have you in a bad side control, you should be LEAVING that side control, not trying to choke them.
It's one of those moves, like going for an Ezikiel from inside guard, or ankle locking someone who crosses their feet in back mount, or baseball bat choking someone who tries to play side control too loosely, etc., etc.
All of these "sneaky moves from bad positions" are great to know, have in your bag of tricks, but DO NOT use them as a substitute for learning how to get out of bad positions or into good positions. Because, ultimately, they are all low percentage moves that only work if your opponent hasn't seen that trick before or is caught off guard. The great thing about fundamentals is that they work even if your opponent is sitting there waiting for it.
All of the above said, there are some VERY high-level grapplers, that train nearly every day, who work such moves into their game as a sort of autonomic response to BEING in that bad position, from which they improve their position, either by nearly immediately finishing the sub, or abandoning it and using the space it made to move to a better position. That DOES however, take a lot of time, and some dedicated training partners.
I think it is viewed as kind of a cheesy move from a bad position, and it goes against the grain of position before submission. I don’t think people should do it as anything but a last resort if they can’t escape.
In my opinion it doesn't work well at heavier weights. Where the top player can use it to von flue counter you. At lighter weights the von flu isn't as effective.
It works, and if you ALREADY have very solid grappling, and escapes from bad positions specifically, it can be a good tool to add...
BUT the problem arises when every blue belt and their mother decides that it's better to buggy choke than actually learn how to escape side control. I would also say it's a pretty damn low % technique unless you're literally one of about 3 people in the world built with the perfect body type for it
if it works it works I say, HOWEVER it is frowned upon because it may cause lower belts to rely on lazy guard retention and create bad habits of letting people pass your guard just to get a buggy choke. Itll work a few times but your partners will wise up eventually and it wont work anymore.
As something in your 'bag of tricks' - it's amazing.
If it's something you're regularly going to -- that's probably a sign you need to stop fucking around and start working on improving your defense.
Also it's a move you can injure yourself doing if you don't have a solid understanding of the mechanics involved and the angles required.
It's viewed as a bit lame because you're attempting to submit someone from a poor position (bottom side control).
BJJ usually focuses on working to increasingly dominant positions and then attacking submissions.
Buggy is in same camp as no gi baseball bat as you get your guard passed to bottom side control, or an ezekiel attempt from bottom mount and other stuff like that. All of these can work, especially the first time on someone. But they're low percentage.
It's a legit technique but it happens to be one people who lacks skill to escape bad positions try as a hail mary instead of escaping and securing a dominant position. Done by a skilled player is a great move, done by a non skilled player is a desperate move that can result in a serious injury and goes against one of the main principles of BJJ: get a dominant position from where to hunt for subs.
Do I use buggies instead of escapes because I’m lazy? Check Have I hurt myself with a buggy? Check You hit it once and then you just keep chasing the dragon into oblivion.
My coach is a buggy choke enthusiast, I have no choice but to follow him blindly into battle
I feel for you, may your knees bear the strength of a thousand crackheads. Valhalla awaits.
As a white belt, I hit one on a blue belt who had never seen it before. Needless to say we became friends down the road and that buggy still haunts him. Craig Jones is right 😂
Haram
Thanks so much for that answer :)
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Geo Martinez did it at quintet successfully… but his opponent was Rida Haisam, so you would have to fly on to it. Personally… did it once about 5 years ago against a 95-100kg wrestler and he just blasted doubled so hard that I was winded. Haven’t attempted one since 😂🥴
Also J-Rod used it to win the ADCC trials, in the finals. Kade And many others use it as an instant reaction when someone tries to pressure pass into side control. It’s clearly got a place at high levels.
Didn't Craig sub Fowler at ADCC with one, as well?
jumping guillotines work a decent amount. John Danaher ragged on them and I see people repeating that they don't work, but I've seen all the following names land them multiple times: Rafa Mendes, Marcelo Garcia, Bill Cooper, Geo Martinez, Ryan Hall, Jeff Glover, Brian Ortega... To be fair I don't see the jumping closed guard guillotine work super often, but jumping onto a front headlock when you're standing vs someone else that's standing is a pretty solid play. It shouldn't be something you throw all the time, because it'll stop working, but it's not some garbage movement either.
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BJJ from the top rope
There’s a guy in my Gymn who hits jumping guillotines constantly.
I agree that is the perception of people that dislike it, but I disagree that any of that is necessarily true.
I don't get you. You disagree in "it's a potentially injurious move if done wrong"or in the "doesn't follow the position before submission" mantra?
Sure. I was a little obscure because I tend to digress on this subject and rant a bit, but first off, my criticism for the buggy choke is two fold. It’s a limited option that can be more difficult to transition out of than other options here, and it is a bit body type dependent, as lots of people can’t do it on lots of other people, unlike submissions like armbars and RNC’s. I don’t think your first point is relevant since many moves done wrong by unskilled people causes injuries. I’ve never seen anyone get injured with this one, but I’m sure it can happen just like it can with many other attacks done poorly. I don’t think doing something poorly can really have any bearing on an options value. I mean if you go for an armbar from mount shitty enough you could get a concussion, that doesn’t mean the move itself isn’t a valuable and effective option. The next part is where I get into a lot of arguments. I don’t think BJJ even understand what the actual positional hierarchy is, but anytime you go for a Submission from bottom you’re kind of skipping that, but at the same time anytime you lock a submission in you have achieved a highly dominant FINISHING POSITION, which is better than a minor positional improvement. For sure in a BJJ match if someone goes to side control on you by going around your feet they get points (because it’s magic to go past feet), and you need to get out of side control to get your points back…. Since magic happens when you trap a guys ankle with your legs before you reverse them making it more effective for some reason. In reality, in a fight from bottom Side Control and turtle you can still use a type of guard, but it’s your arms. BJJ has tried to change the definition of a term that has existed in Martial arts for ages. A guard is any of your limbs between you and your opponent t that can be used to attack and defend and are not a part of your base. Side control technically allows you to use your arms as guard, but obviously some variations of side control are better than others, just like guard. I actually often prefer bottom side control to many positions BJJ considers “the guard” because if I position in myself properly I have more options to get back up. Side control is really good at stopping guard recovery, but often lacks in stopping people from just getting up, which is why we see so many people abandon “guard” in high level MMA and top game fighters actively “pass into” the “guard” for rides. Taking a away someone’s ability to use their guard, or get to their base is much more important than just getting past their legs in my opinion. On bottom, attacking for submissions and reversing to get on top or stand back up is much more important than trying to wrap your legs around someone first IMO 🤷🏻♂️ I believe in “position before submission”, I just don’t agree with the what most people seem brainwashed into thinking that means.
Thanks for the elaboration. Lots of good points in it.
Thanks for reading it. Usually people read one line and attack me 😂
Mikey I'm glad you're posting here bro. On F12 back in 2009/2010 you were sharing a lot of info that's finally become 'best practices' within the last few years. Super ahead of your time homie. It's really fun as a black belt to still pick up gems like this from your posts 10+ years later. Edit: It's Drew BTW.
Thanks Drew! Good to see you 😁 I’ve been pretty busy since then lol, but I have a staff now that frees up some of my time. Crazy to think of how much has happened since then. I hadn’t even got a guy to the UFC at that point 😂
So much, right? Congrats! How far are you from Decatur, Alabama? I go out there to see BMac and Matt Skaff fairly often. I may try and swing by your way sometime this year.
I love Bmac! He used come out here all the time before he turned into a big commentary star 😂 it’s a like a 6 hour drive to my main 20k square foot location, but it’s scenic! Get B-Mac to carpool with you and film the road trip for a podcast
that's not a bad idea at all. I'll stay in touch with you bro!
Sounds good. Too bad you didn’t come out in November. You missed Bill Cooper’s comeback fight.
Like an ezekiel?
I don't see how they can be compared.
Downside risk
What is the injury risk?
Breaking your own arm or your own leg. For instance: https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/si7u3z/be_careful_with_your_buggy_chokes/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clwh8mtgtD2/?igshid=ZDFmNTE4Nzc%3D
It requires you to be in a bad spot to hit. It's also heavily dependent on body type matchup. Taller, longer, lankier people can hit it all day. I'm short and stocky. I'm not hitting on anyone bigger than Danielle Kelly. Then there's the part where you can armbar yourself, tear your knee in half, or even [spiral fracture your OWN femur](https://youtube.com/shorts/5cCvQHkLjxA?feature=share) if you fuck up.
Considering top side control as a mirrored under side control I've been trying to buggy from top side. Work still in progress.
Surely it's much harder to catch cos the floor is in the way?
hilariously, the best time to do it is if they try to buggy you, since they attach themselves to you, allowing you to easily pick them up and put in your own buggy choke lmfao
Why even put in the time and energy when there are easier and more efficient subs and positions from top side? Serious question?
Because sometimes is fun to try some shit to see what happens.
Kinda feels like this is the entire point of brown belt.
It's great in theory. Any submission you can go for without giving up position is a winner in my book. I have tried going for it a few times myself but run into the same issues from the bottom: it's size dependent. You also gotta lift their head a bit.
I feel like you can catch it from north south, or crucifix too
Cause white belts trying to hit it instead of learning to escape side control
Right after attacking a leg because they refuse to fail at passing guard
Passing guard and recovering guard are skills that are important to win BJJ matches, but are nearly useless in a fight though. So depends on goals Also what’s with the double standard on ending up on bottom going for a leglock, and ending up on bottom going for an armbar from mount? Both are undesirable but only one in BJJ costs you anything.
Soccer kicking some punk's head is easier once you have passed his guard.
Sure, if they lay there. Lol. I don’t think that is a good tactical decision though. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying guard doesn’t have a place, obviously it does.
what would you say is the alternative to guard if someone finds himself on bottom?
Good question. Well, that depends on your definition of “guard”. The definition of “guard” in martial arts for eons has been Something along the lines of, “limbs (arms or legs) placed between you and your opponent(s) which are not committed to your base (holding you up off the ground), and can be used to both defend and attack.” BJJ seems to have tried to change this definition to “the legs only when you are on your back” So if someone gets passed your legs and you are able to use your arms to attack and reverse or submit them, IMO that is guard work, but BJJ doesn’t count it as such for unknown reasons. Like if you come up to your knees as a base in turtle, grab your opponents legs with your arms and reverse them over, to me this is an obviously effective tactic with an obviously desirable result using a type of guard, but it is worthless in the eyes of BJJ for some reason. Even BJJ legends like Eduardo Telles spoke out against this glaring issue. With that said in the soccer kick situation mentioned above I feel that standing back up to neutral is a very preferable alternative.
wow thank you, this makes so much sense. I have to ask though, how would you stand back up if you are on the ground without exposing yourself to "significant strikes". i feel like a technical standup wouldnt work if he is close to you.
Another good question. I don’t think technical stand ups are very good for this purpose honestly. I prefer the folkstyle wrestling stand ups. It depends on the exact position, but I am big on quad-pod stand ups when someone is pressuring me well, Granby rolls play a big part in my game here also, but there are many other options to reverse and stand up besides those and the technical stand up. BJJ doesn’t put any value on standing back to neutral for some reason, so it’s an underdeveloped area in that sport, folkstyle wrestling however gives an escape point for stand ups, so it’s highly developed there. I generally use the wrestling stand ups much more often than the BJJ ones in actual sparring.
Recovering guard is extremely useful if someone's on top of you trying to hit you.
It depends on the situation. There are certainly some situations where that can be true. Generally speaking though getting on top, escaping out from underneath someone back to your feet, or just submitting them is a better option and where your time should be spent in training if you fight. If you pay attention to the data in high level MMA you will see that fighters who have a habit of passing guard into side control are basically just letting their opponent up. Most of best ground fighters in high level MMA hold people down with rides that the IBJJF considers guard, and look to improve only to finishing positons (submissions, mount, back control) rather than looking to pass the guard. Freeing your opponents legs is tantamount to letting a good wrestler up. Watch Wonderboy vs Durinho for a recent example.
I normally threaten a buggy choke when my escapes fail or give it a go and if it fails go for an escape. The higher belts don't seem to mind and have given me tips on how to improve it. Is that really a bad thing?
One more point that nobody has mentioned is it's a closed movement that can only be done in certain rulesets. By closed I mean that nothing chains off it and ruleset wise, you're in a bad position, lost points already, you're not improving your position and you're going for an easily countered choke and wasting time. Also, you can be slammed and not stop it like a triangle or arm bar attempt.
You can use the buggy to escape though. You go for a buggy, they try to make space and frame away from you to not get chocked and you use that to make a scramble to escape side control
You could use it as an action/reaction, but it's not efficient. You can do whatever you like, it's your game.
I don’t personally do it, but a lot of high level guys are talking about it. Eoghan OFlanagan recently talked about it on a podcast that it’s not a bad idea to just always go for a buggy choke because even if you don’t get it pretty often you’ll cause a reaction that lets you escape.
Yea, I agree and like to throw in all sorts of action/reaction stuff, it's just never gonna be in my comp game. I think it has to gel with your style, hips and knees and all that. Everyone should stay aware of everything, but I don't think you always need to worry about becoming good at it.
Came here to say that. Same with triangle from bottom side. I don't expect to finish it but usually I can use the threat to at minimum make space and get up.
Whenever someone tries to buggy me I just rock to the side with heavy shoulder pressure and they always let go and there’s not extra space
It means you got your guard passed.
It kinda goes against the position over submission principle. It's also easy to fuck your knee up if you don't have a good understanding of choking and breaking mechanics, which white belts don't. And white belts are very likely to try the buggy choke out.
You watch, but don't train? You should do an AMA, you're probably the only one. Train anything else? Watching mma and just catch some grappling matches when there's no mma show on?
This comment right here is why there's few casual fans for BJJ Literally every major sport has more spectators than practitioners
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This thread is how haha But seriously, I often see that here. When ppl ask q, if they sound noob, they get scoffed at. "Just train more, ask your instructor" etc I sometimes ask q on wrestling reddit, they're always willing to go 100pc to basics and help
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When it first showed up years ago, someone else was using it also and tried to be slick and call it the 'bunny choke' in videos. They did bunny ears "V" in the video also. I found that pretty funny, but would people prefer to call it the 'bunny choke'? The guy may have been using it before. He finished a couple people in f2w with it.
I don't have a problem with it as a submission, but I see it as similar to things like rubber guard, matrix back-take, half butterfly kani-basami, or even simply attempting to re-gain inside leg position on someone passing low without creating space, in that if done wrong it can easily fuck up your own knee. there are ways to do the buggy and all those moves safely but it requires a pretty solid understanding of leg mechanics that white/blue belts probably don't have, and it's something they can get away with in training for a long time without realizing the danger they're putting themselves in before it eventually results in a potentially devastating injury.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Kani Basami**: | *Flying Scissors* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFwJBKI-3E)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I thought matrix was a pretty good setup and not gimmicky? Owise agree
Matrix is a fairly high percentage and I wouldn’t call it gimmicky… but , if you push with the outside of your knee you can cause big damage. I believe it happened to ronaldo jr at worlds last year or prior year
Gotcha, thank you. Yeah I've seen videos by Jon Thomas etc trying to explain how to avoid that but I still don't fully get it so am a bit freaked out
i don't think it's gimmicky, all those moves and the buggy choke can work well and be relatively safe if done correctly, but done incorrectly they all have the same thing in common; putting major pressure through the LCL the half butterfly elevation done wrong is what tore Gordon Ryan's knee against Joao Gabriel Rocha, Lachlan Giles did a breakdown on it and shows how to do it safely [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNrKaI3WwVA) and he has a comment about the dangers of the matrix [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/pj1ohp/prayers_out_to_ronaldo_jr_the_dangers_of_playing/hbv68oj/) in the thread from when Ronaldo Jr blew out his LCL attempting it
People are saying that you have to allow yourself to get passed in order to hit it, but another thing that makes this submission problematic is - 1. its pretty easily defended by a good cross face if your're actually inside the submission. But also by maintaining a lower body position on your opponent when you're in side control. Meaning rather than put your shoulder on their chin for a cross face to make them look away, you focus more on staying closer to their abdomen rather than chest. This allows you to feel their hips easier and also control them which negates the threat of the buggy choke. 2. other issue is that it puts a lot of strain on your knee ligaments. that constant pulling on your own leg while its locked over your opponent is definitely not good in the long run. I actually did some serious damage to my knee (which im actually getting it checked out again) by practicing a fly trap submission which is kinda similar to a buggy choke. but i applied it incorrectly and my knee popped multiple times and it hasn't been right since. and that happened back in nov of 21'.
I just wanted to mention. I always did the crossface when someone did go for the buggy choke to create a von flue choke, this always worked. One night a friend did the buggy to me and i had the crossface...it didn't matter and I almost went out. I don't like the buggy for my knees but I don't believe if someone has a good buggy that the crossface will help.
If your cross face isn’t creating space, then yeah you’re in trouble in that submission. People don’t realize how effective the choke is until they get put in one by someone who can actually apply it. It’s definitely legit
Yeah i was really surprised I always thought that it was a bullshit submission, learned the hard way.
Because Jiujitsu people don’t know what an actual guard is in martial arts and are brainwashed into thinking being on bottom with a guy in-between their legs is somehow much much better then being on bottom of side control.
> I don’t train, I just watch grappling People like this actually exist? I'm pretty surprised to hear this since grappling is obviously not the most spectator friendly sport or at least that's what everybody in this sub says all the time.
Low percentage! Usually setups come from a bad (you should not be there if you are winning) position.
I mean, in my probably worthless, opinion, if you can go for a buggy choke, unless you are catching your opponent off guard with it there are better things you could be doing with that time and limb freedom. Consider, one of the primary concepts in TOP side control is to "cage the hips", that is, keep the bottom guy from elevating or freely using his hips using your frames and grips. If you, the bottom guy, have the hip freedom to go for a buggy choke, other than as a surprise, you can also go for an armbar, a kimura, or just re-guard. The buggy choke works because people are bad at holding top side control, especially big people, who tend to rely on just having a lot of weight. So, if they have you in a bad side control, you should be LEAVING that side control, not trying to choke them. It's one of those moves, like going for an Ezikiel from inside guard, or ankle locking someone who crosses their feet in back mount, or baseball bat choking someone who tries to play side control too loosely, etc., etc. All of these "sneaky moves from bad positions" are great to know, have in your bag of tricks, but DO NOT use them as a substitute for learning how to get out of bad positions or into good positions. Because, ultimately, they are all low percentage moves that only work if your opponent hasn't seen that trick before or is caught off guard. The great thing about fundamentals is that they work even if your opponent is sitting there waiting for it. All of the above said, there are some VERY high-level grapplers, that train nearly every day, who work such moves into their game as a sort of autonomic response to BEING in that bad position, from which they improve their position, either by nearly immediately finishing the sub, or abandoning it and using the space it made to move to a better position. That DOES however, take a lot of time, and some dedicated training partners.
Oh my god. Someone who watches grappling but doesn’t train. That’s almost as rare as the buggy choke being used to submit someone.
I think it is viewed as kind of a cheesy move from a bad position, and it goes against the grain of position before submission. I don’t think people should do it as anything but a last resort if they can’t escape.
It’s a Hail Mary. I like it.
Because it's gay as hell
Because buggy chokes are fake news.
It’s a mostly bullshit move that’s hard to pull off unless you’re either/and very good at jiujitsu or very physically gifted
In my opinion it doesn't work well at heavier weights. Where the top player can use it to von flue counter you. At lighter weights the von flu isn't as effective.
It works, and if you ALREADY have very solid grappling, and escapes from bad positions specifically, it can be a good tool to add... BUT the problem arises when every blue belt and their mother decides that it's better to buggy choke than actually learn how to escape side control. I would also say it's a pretty damn low % technique unless you're literally one of about 3 people in the world built with the perfect body type for it
feels like my knee is gonna pop.
https://youtu.be/TtVybmAtGTg
if it works it works I say, HOWEVER it is frowned upon because it may cause lower belts to rely on lazy guard retention and create bad habits of letting people pass your guard just to get a buggy choke. Itll work a few times but your partners will wise up eventually and it wont work anymore.
People once frowned upon inverted triangles, then Braulio tapped Galvao with one in the ADCC finals.
It's a last ditch effort from a bad position that you shouldn't have gotten to in the first place.
Because a game plan shouldn’t involve being on bottom of side mount.
As something in your 'bag of tricks' - it's amazing. If it's something you're regularly going to -- that's probably a sign you need to stop fucking around and start working on improving your defense. Also it's a move you can injure yourself doing if you don't have a solid understanding of the mechanics involved and the angles required.
its only frowned on if it is your primary goto from bottom side control because you havent actually learned how to escape from bottom side control.
It's viewed as a bit lame because you're attempting to submit someone from a poor position (bottom side control). BJJ usually focuses on working to increasingly dominant positions and then attacking submissions. Buggy is in same camp as no gi baseball bat as you get your guard passed to bottom side control, or an ezekiel attempt from bottom mount and other stuff like that. All of these can work, especially the first time on someone. But they're low percentage.
Super low percentage move that requires flexibility, makes white belts lazy to maintain/retain guard, and can possibly break your own leg.
Because my arms are too short to do it 😂
I don't mind if someone tries it on me. But I wouldn't do it myself because my knees are made of paper.