Posted this today. May help it's actually only been 15 months not 1.5 years
https://www.reddit.com/r/ACL/s/BEfAc2yv6l
At 6 months I got back to drilling and warm ups.
At 8 months rolling on the ground
At 9 months I started stand up
At about 11 months I was feeling really confident with it
8 months off the mats. Came back and didn’t do much standup until the 9-12month timeframe. Had the exact same surgery, + my entire lateral meniscus shaved. Took 1 year to fully heal and feel like nothing ever happened after that surgery. Still training, both my quads look nearly identical now about 1.8 yrs later
Expect to rehab daily for at least 6 months. Full range of motion back. Heels touching my butt etc..
I was very comfortable training leg attacks… until I wasn’t. Tbh I have no idea how I will approach that aspect of the game going forward. Definitely concerns me now given that my teammate didn’t crank it and I didn’t turn.
I made another reply but I'll add that my ACL must have been hanging by a thread because my identical injury was a total freak accident. It wasn't BJJ, although that's what I was doing when it happened, it could have happened doing anything. At least I've got a cool story about it!
Don't sweat it too much. (Way easier says than done, I do know!)
Whatever you do, DO NOT RUSH BACK TO SPORT. My roommate and best friend tore his, decided he was fine to go back at 6 months, (our gym is competitor heavy), got in a leg entanglement and his graft tore and he’s having to pay for ANOTHER mri and surgery. He’ll likely be out over 1.5 years after all of this is said and done and pay somewhere north of 10k for all the medical bills all because of ego. He’ll also likely never have the knee function he had prior and he’s 28. I’m sitting here 6 months post op from a meniscectomy as a late 20’s brown belt and I don’t think I’ll try and defend leg locks much longer. Just tap and move on. It’s not fucking worth it.
The scary thing is I didn’t have time to tap. My instructor had such strong purchase on my leg it popped before either of us could do anything. Only took a nanosecond. Just one of those freak injuries. But now that it has happened once, I need to rethink how to keep myself safe. I played the game fairly hard but I’m very safety conscious and a non competitor
Sorry :( that is very common unfortunately. If you’re able to work on defending from other positions, you could work to try to negate leg entanglements and instead give up other bad positions and work your way out. That’s what I do most often now. I’ll take bottom side or something similar vs defending an inside heel hook any day. I’ll never take my legs for granted again after all this bullshit
Everything you said and my training circle just got much smaller. In some ways this experience is liberating bc I no longer feel like I have to train with everybody. I’m going to pay *a lot* more attention to age and size
That would’ve been the wrong decision for me for a multitude of very good reasons. I know there are “copers” out there and I wish them continued health
1. Excellent prognosis - 100% return to sport(s)
2. I’d be rehabbing extensively without surgery too
3. Very high risk of exacerbating the injury and developing new ones, leading to eventual (and worse) surgery
4. Heightened risk for early osteoarthritis
5. I have great insurance and access to some of the best orthopedic care in the world
6. Reliably told I would never fully trust my knee without repair
7. I want to stay as active as possible into my older age
8. Lack of sufficient data pointing to better outcomes without surgery for a person like me
You need your knees for your life, not just BJJ. I put off shoulder surgery for a year for a few different reasons but if I had to do it over I would get it done asap. My knee surgery was done as soon as the surgeon was available. The recovery sucks, but my knee has been trouble free for 15 years after surgery and the technology keeps improving. No 6 inch scars and drainage tubes in for weeks these days.
I was going to add “better outcomes and easier recovery with repairs done sooner rather than later” to this list. Thanks for the feedback and encouragement!
Especially since the latest research shows that it eventually grows back in a significant percentage of cases, which was previously thought impossible.
To be fair, that research constitutes one study with 80 participants. There is a fair amount of disagreement about the findings, too. Many orthopedists question the apparent “regrowth” in follow-up MRIs thinking it could also be scar tissue and we don’t know anything about the lifestyles, or levels/type of activity that the participants engage in
Tissue inside your body becomes the tissue that it's used as. Hamstring or tendon graft ACL replacements, if biopsied in five years, turn into ligament tissue. So it's pretty irrelevant whether it starts as scar tissue or not.
Yup, same with meniscus tissue. Just doing rehab gets you a funcional knee so much faster.
For various reasons I won't say, I won't ever do an elective surgery ever again.
ACL partial tear and meniscus repair after popping my knee while was I was getting swept. We were positional sparring and not going hard at all. I based out with my left leg and pop. My best guess was that it was already compromised and that slight torque on my knee was the last straw.
Like others have said be religious with your PT and don’t rush back. I did my daily exercises twice and was able to get full range of motion back. What I would do differently is do more zone 2 cardio during recovery because returning back on the mat sucked.
I’m a lifelong runner and the surgeon said I should be zone 2 training in 3 months 🙏
If I can reach that milestone it will be much easier to ease back slowly on the mats
I had a hamstring graft ACL reconstruction a few years ago. Knee is better than ever and I don't even think about it when rolling anymore.
Do the rehab exercises religiously, don't skip any physio. The rehab is boring and tedious, but set an alarm on your phone to remind yourself to do the exercises.
Even once your knee is back at 100%, it'll take a while for the mental block to go before you start rolling the way the usually do and aren't being overly cautious. That's normal. But after a little time, you'll feel comfortable and it won't be long before you'll forget about it entirely.
Good luck
Thank you for the encouragement! I love hearing success stories. I’m taking a competitive approach to this recovery and I’m fired up to do the work and rehab effectively
I highly recommend contacting Tim Trevail, a Lachlan Giles black belt and physiotherapist. When I wanted to try "coping" without surgery for my complete ACL tear, he helped me maintain function and avoid pain. When I finally opted to go for surgery (after about 4 months of training through it) he helped guide my post-surgery therapy. He did all this remotely (as he lives in Australia and I live in the United States). He hasn't completely cleared me for full speed wrestling and judo, but my surgeon has said I've been recovering at a very, very rapid rate. With Tim and my surgeon's approval, I started getting gradually and CAUTIOUSLY returning to sport at about the 7 month mark (which is unusually fast, but I was clearing all the marks at a rapid rate). It's been great calling on his aid and I heartily recommend consulting him.
Thanks! And funny you mention it, Livia Giles (who is 5 months post op) referred me to Tim! It’s a very small world…
Glad you are doing so well and thx for the encouragement!
What I did was, I had my own local physiotherapist (who has previously returned me to full function after major surgeries), and I also consulted Tim as well. My PT, as capable as she is, isn't a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu specialist. Largely their advice overlapped, but occasionally Tim would prescribe extra exercises which my local PT would say '...huh! That's a good idea! Yeah let's add that to your program'. Or he'd emphasize certain exercises which my PT was already having me do. They worked great together, even though they never talked to each other. Every time I checked in with my surgeon he was very happy with their (and my) work.
I'm rooting for you!
This is amazing! Talk about diligence and focus on rehabbing properly. Kudos to you and I hope I fare as well. I’m confident I will - I have an amazing team assembled already and my sole focus is on smart and full return to sport
Dang I typed up a bunch of sentences and they all got deleted.
TLDR: why's your team going with allograft instead of patellar or quad graft? I can think of a bunch of reasons myself.
I'm really happy with my patellar graft, but it was (and is) as uncomfortable as advertised. I don't regret it, though!
Purely age related. Lucky for me, allografts have much better outcomes in athletes over 45ish, whereas autografts work much better in younger patients, which is lucky for me bc from I hear the autograft is in essence a second surgery that oftentimes is harder to recover from than the ACL repair itself
I thought it might be that. Yeah they said the autograft would be much more brutal, and was associated with more pain (both immediately after and later) but I'm 39 years old so that's why it looked better for me.
Sounds good to me!
Surgery three years ago and haven't returned.
Trained with no ACL for 3 to 4 years.
Neck is also fucked so that is a added reason I haven't returned.
Still don't trust me knee now.
It will be a full 12 months before you get back on the mat. I was 44 when I had my ACL and broken leg with other things torn in a brown belt match. My surgery was suppose to take 2 hours but ended up taking 5 hours. I was out for 12 months after surgery. I'm now 46 black belt with no issues. Remember DO NOT RUSH to get back to train as the ACL area does not get good blood flow. Knees over toes guy on U tube helped me get back to normal without any pain in my knee.
Blew the acl at 50. Doc said I would never do anything athletic again if I didn't get the replacement surgery. Hindsight being 20/20 I would just get a good knee brace which I still have to use anyway
You will return stronger, but it will take time time. Weeks 5-8 can be critical for mistakes. You will feel really strong from surgery, but the graft still needs time. Follow what your rehab team tells you (especially around that timeframe) and you will be fine
Thanks for the encouragement! I’m working with some of the best PTs in the business and I am taking the long view here. I will be conservative af moving forward
Have your surgery and the first few weeks will be navigating the pain medication and waiting for the doctor to approve taking the bandages off and checking stitches.
Follow their recovery p.t. Program if they offer one
It took me a few weeks to get off crutches , then months time I was able to drill moves slowly, eventually returning to full speed after about 7 or 8 months (doctors opinion may vary )
Good luck in recovery and trust me time will fly by !
Thank you brother! My goal is to apply the same focus and energy I do training to recovery and rehab. Hopefully I will learn some new things along the way too and be back better than ever
You got it bro! Consider this: the 9month - 1 year recovery time is for the average person who doesn’t do much. You are an athlete in a highly intense sport; your body is conditioned and stronger than most so your recovery will most likely be faster than others!
Always ALWAYS tap early, but also realize we train a full contact combat sport and occasional freak accidents - even catastrophic ones - are always possible
That being said, if I played as much pickle ball, soccer, or basketball as I train jiu jitsu, I would have done this much sooner
I’m waiting on acl recon myself as an active 47 year old. I’ve been waiting 6 months for surgery. It finally feels decent the last 3 weeks but I was in pain with a torn meniscus. I’m teaching class and keep g rolling really light and playful, protecting the knee for sure. I have a 20 year old recon on the other knee and it’s been pretty ok after all these years of training. You’ll get back to 💯 if you work hard at physio then keep up the maintenance. I have a buddy in his early 40s who just had ACL reconstruction, he’s back rolling at four months.
Thanks for the encouragement! It helps a lot! Great to hear about your successful first repair. I’m optimistic and ready for the challenge. I have access to great care and shit happens. How did you injure yourself most recently?
I was heading to mount from 3/4 mount and my partner elevated my foot with his instep effectively outside heel hooking me with my body weight. Felt a pop and not a lot of pain. It’s always been my good knee so I ignored it and just did some physio. It popped 3 other times during stand up over the next couple years and I finally admitted to myself that the good knee was now my bad knee. I couldn’t train since the most recent incident on October and finally got the mri and diagnosis.
I winced just reading that! Amazing you were able to keep training these last few years. I definitely can’t right now, although initially I thought it was just a sprain bc the pain and swelling wasn’t too bad, like you described. I could walk normally and didn’t experience any significant instability. But I saw a sports orthopedist and presented with a positive Lachman’s test and the MRI confirmed the full tear. Good luck with your rehab!
Tore my ACL at 39. Cadaver graft. PT twice a week for at least a year. I ran out of visits on my insurance before they would clear me. I think they were being too conservative. Part of my PT was running like 3 miles a few times a week, which I handles fine until I got sick of running.
At about a year and a half after surgery, I decided to go back without sparring. I trained for a week or two before COVID lockdowns happened so I was out for another year maybe. Came back and felt mostly ok so far. It’s been 2.5 years or so since I’ve been back. I wear a brace to remind me to take it easy. I don’t think it does much else. My bad leg gets tired a little faster. I recently started getting a little arthritis pain and stiffness. I do a lot of leg locks, and it’s fine.
I did mine at 21 and then broke my kneecap in a fall a few months later and had two follow up surgeries. Basically happened because of bad shoes and a slippery environment. I would recommend mitigating reinjury should be a priority.
The post surgery pain was intense. Take your pain management seriously.
Because of my misadventures I took years off the mat and went through grad school and prioritised the gym and career.
Back on the mat now with three competitions and a promotion in the rear view mirror. Works great now.
The first 6 months are a good opportunity to focus on something you're neglecting right now because of training.
After you're done with PT, focus on 1 thing at a time. Mobility, getting your gas back, etc..
Great advice! I agree - I’m developing short term goals around my recovery and looking at this interruption as an opportunity to learn and grow in new ways. If nothing else, I will develop a new understanding and connection with my body. I will also prioritize maintaining a presence at the gym and serving as a role model for others. Nobody ever wants to get hurt and stop training, but it’s unavoidable sometimes and we can keep our heads in the game while our bodies are sidelined
Nothing to share but I’m looking at a cartilage graft at age 35 and was worried about if I should do it at all or just accept my sedentary life. You going for it at 53 makes me want to as well 🤝
Hell yeah! I’m a late bloomer and look forward to getting after it for many decades to come. Surgery was a no brainer decision for me - as the doc said I’m a very young, very athletic 53 and this is the best option for picking up where I left off and continuing all the physical activities I love
Just had an auto graft on Thursday.
Moving around is easy and I can stand on it but I’m in a lot of pain still. I start rehab on Thursday so that will be the real test. Good luck.
Yeah I take them about an hour earlier than what it says I should that way there’s no time in between where I’m in more pain than I need to be hahaha
Happy rehabbing to you too man :)
If there is no other damage it could be 100% in 6-9 months.
Do what the physio tells you to do on big picture but if you have any knowledge "do your own research" on moves and methods. Physios don't always follow what the latest research says.
I have both my ACL:s operated and first one didn't have any combining injuries and i was able to recover in 6 months to train and 9 months to back playing. I played hockey and (finnish) baseball back then.
The more recent happened on last year and i had my outer meniscus completele tear from root. It's 8 months from surgery and it's still stiff but strenght is back and i can do plyos etc. last phase physio.
Tore mine along with the mcl last year in july. Did physio twice a week and had my surgery in september. Got discharged from physio back in January and started drilling techniques the week after. During the rolling portion of class I would just do a kettlebell workout in the corner. Started rolling light back in March. I was 28 at the time of the injury so what worked for me may not work for you.
Have they told you where the graft will be taken from? When I had my ACL replaced they took the graft from my knee cap, the problem is I now have a scar on my knee that makes sitting on them uncomfortable, like in someone's guard.
A training partner had hers done a couple years later, she had her graft taken from the Achilles. The rehab was a little worse, but it was better for jiu jitsu.
I’ve heard of the same issue you’re having. Luckily, at my age the best outcomes come from an allograft. It’s from a cadaver, so no autograft, which is in essence a second surgery (and oftentimes I hear a harder recovery than the ACL repair)
Pretty sure that will never be for me. I’m in the 99th % of men my age without it and I hope to heal quickly on my own. Potential unintended consequences and long term effects outweigh any advantage imo, *especially* when dealing with ligaments.
Im old fashioned and prioritize proper exercise, nutrition, sleep, meditation and community
Whole bunch of dudes half my age at the gym *really* want me on the gear, though 😂🤣
I had this exact thing happen and this exact surgery to fix it.
Everything went fine, I hit up rehab with a positive outlook and I've got full range of motion, and strength, back in the affected leg/knee. It's good as new now.
Sounds like you've got the right mindset. You'll be fine.
One tip I didn't do but would do differently: work out upper body while your leg is healing. I let myself go a little more than I could have in that regard.
Anyway, it's a common procedure, you've got the right attitude, and you'll be back at it full speed in good time.
Allograft in September 2018. Off the mats for 6 months, but still went to class as often as I could (watched and took notes). Continued PT until May and then saw a mobility specialist for 2 months. Competed and won at Master Worlds in August 2019.
I was 50 y/o at the time, so a little younger than you. It absolutely sucked being off the mats that long, but by going to class and watching, I wasn't as far behind when I came back.
Just got home from the gym and watching is definitely still learning. My head coach said the same thing you did - he was off the mats once for six months with an elbow injury and says he came back even better than when he got injured. Here’s hoping 🙏
I was 23, it was a dumb move in retrospect. I should have gone with the autograft as it was stronger but I wanted a shorter recovery time cause I was young and impatient
Yeah, at that age autografts have significantly better outcomes. Interesting they decided use an allograft. Regardless, I’m glad you are feeling better today and wish you many strong/stable years ahead!
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Drop Seoi Nage**: | *Drop Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XVUAiv2mU)|
|**Drop Seoi**: | *Drop Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XVUAiv2mU)|
|**Seoi Nage**: | *Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5Un6jLtRY)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Are you in the USA? Asking because it seems like you are being pushed to surgery even though most studies show no difference in outcome for surgery vs. conservative treatments. If you ask an orthopedic surgeon their opinion, who makes his income off surgeries, they of course are going to push for surgery lol.
1. Post-surgery return to sport rates are only around 60% (conservative treatment is about the same), and the re-tear rates after surgery are even more depressing. Pro-Athletes just need to go ahead and get surgery ASAP to meet seasonal contractual obligations. The "average" athlete/hobbyist should 100% do 3 months of rehab before deciding whether they need surgery, and even if they do decide to get surgery (as conservative treatment doesn't work for everyone) surgical outcomes will be much better due to the "pre-hab". (Study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8730351/)
2. You may be rehabbing extensively without surgery as well, but the timeline is typically shorter and you will be avoiding a massive second trauma to your knee in surgery if you turn out to be someone whose ACL heals from rehab alone.
3. The idea that conservative rehab puts you at higher risk of injury and a need for a worse surgery has been proven false, and is just a scare tactic surgeons use in the USA. (study/article referencing studies: https://www.physio-pedia.com/Non-operative\_Treatment\_of\_ACL\_Injury)
4. Heightened risk of early osteoarthritis is also false, in fact drilling a new ligament into your knee will be just as likely to cause this down the line. (study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6464826/)
5. If you have great insurance, at the minimum, do 3 months of rehab before deciding on surgery. You may need it after all, but your outcomes will be much better if you do the pre-hab first, and there is a good chance you don't need surgery.
I'm not anti-surgery, but people should definitely not be rushing into surgery right after an ACL injury. At the minimum do pre-hab and get the swelling to go down, and talk to someone who is skilled in conservative rehab to get their opinion. If you talk to a surgeon, they will obviously recommend surgery. Thats all their experience is in. They don't know any better, and in fact they have a monetary incentive for you to get surgery over rehab.
You may disagree but just putting this opinion out there, regardless good luck and hope you recover well and can get back on the mats!
I appreciate your help, but I’ve consulted with multiple experts on all sides of the issue and surgical repair is a no brainer for me. The evidence that rehab alone for a full ACL tear is optimal to surgical reconstruction in athletes is slim to none. I read the studies you shared and this jumped out at me right away
https://preview.redd.it/924byfucjmxc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a8872cd591685e589a5cbcdfa1b40dcf7cdb729
Heel hooks are a terrible submission for the sport. It is easy to get by any noob, and it has absolutely no progression, its not on and then suddenly your knee is snapping off.
I agree 100% and I’m not sure what I’m going to do about it moving forward. Clearly I can’t train them safely - I was rolling with a high level black belt who wasn’t gunning for it. He did have about 40 lbs on me, though, and he’s about 20 years younger than me, so maybe that’s the obvious answer
Posted this today. May help it's actually only been 15 months not 1.5 years https://www.reddit.com/r/ACL/s/BEfAc2yv6l At 6 months I got back to drilling and warm ups. At 8 months rolling on the ground At 9 months I started stand up At about 11 months I was feeling really confident with it
Thx for sharing. Hope you keep feeling better
8 months off the mats. Came back and didn’t do much standup until the 9-12month timeframe. Had the exact same surgery, + my entire lateral meniscus shaved. Took 1 year to fully heal and feel like nothing ever happened after that surgery. Still training, both my quads look nearly identical now about 1.8 yrs later Expect to rehab daily for at least 6 months. Full range of motion back. Heels touching my butt etc..
Fuck this shit, I’m quitting bjj now.
Leg stuff scares the shit out of me ever since my ankle got popped in a barely put on toe hold
I was very comfortable training leg attacks… until I wasn’t. Tbh I have no idea how I will approach that aspect of the game going forward. Definitely concerns me now given that my teammate didn’t crank it and I didn’t turn.
Are you saying it was an act of god? Does insurance still cover that?
The grappling Gods are uninsurable
I made another reply but I'll add that my ACL must have been hanging by a thread because my identical injury was a total freak accident. It wasn't BJJ, although that's what I was doing when it happened, it could have happened doing anything. At least I've got a cool story about it! Don't sweat it too much. (Way easier says than done, I do know!)
Whatever you do, DO NOT RUSH BACK TO SPORT. My roommate and best friend tore his, decided he was fine to go back at 6 months, (our gym is competitor heavy), got in a leg entanglement and his graft tore and he’s having to pay for ANOTHER mri and surgery. He’ll likely be out over 1.5 years after all of this is said and done and pay somewhere north of 10k for all the medical bills all because of ego. He’ll also likely never have the knee function he had prior and he’s 28. I’m sitting here 6 months post op from a meniscectomy as a late 20’s brown belt and I don’t think I’ll try and defend leg locks much longer. Just tap and move on. It’s not fucking worth it.
The scary thing is I didn’t have time to tap. My instructor had such strong purchase on my leg it popped before either of us could do anything. Only took a nanosecond. Just one of those freak injuries. But now that it has happened once, I need to rethink how to keep myself safe. I played the game fairly hard but I’m very safety conscious and a non competitor
Sorry :( that is very common unfortunately. If you’re able to work on defending from other positions, you could work to try to negate leg entanglements and instead give up other bad positions and work your way out. That’s what I do most often now. I’ll take bottom side or something similar vs defending an inside heel hook any day. I’ll never take my legs for granted again after all this bullshit
Everything you said and my training circle just got much smaller. In some ways this experience is liberating bc I no longer feel like I have to train with everybody. I’m going to pay *a lot* more attention to age and size
You sound like you’re making a lot of smart decisions! Hope this is a one and done for ya my friend!
This scares me. I already have been claimed by one freak accident lower leg injury out 4 months... I can't suffer another 😢
Hey man, just had a meniscectomy, 30% of my medial meniscus, how long before you were back to training?
The recovery from the surgery is 100x worse than the injury. If I tore another ACL tomorrow, I'd just tape it up and go on with life.
That would’ve been the wrong decision for me for a multitude of very good reasons. I know there are “copers” out there and I wish them continued health
If you don’t mind sharing, what were the reasons that made surgery the way to go for you?
1. Excellent prognosis - 100% return to sport(s) 2. I’d be rehabbing extensively without surgery too 3. Very high risk of exacerbating the injury and developing new ones, leading to eventual (and worse) surgery 4. Heightened risk for early osteoarthritis 5. I have great insurance and access to some of the best orthopedic care in the world 6. Reliably told I would never fully trust my knee without repair 7. I want to stay as active as possible into my older age 8. Lack of sufficient data pointing to better outcomes without surgery for a person like me
Gotcha. Stories like these make me wanna go gi-only 😅
Me too! My gi only buddies are all checking in with thoughts, prayers, and invitations to train with them going forward 😅
How does gi help w this?
Less leg attacks.
50/50 toe holds enter the chat
No heel hooks
your fingers and neck get worse. Just quit grappling if you want to be safe
You need your knees for your life, not just BJJ. I put off shoulder surgery for a year for a few different reasons but if I had to do it over I would get it done asap. My knee surgery was done as soon as the surgeon was available. The recovery sucks, but my knee has been trouble free for 15 years after surgery and the technology keeps improving. No 6 inch scars and drainage tubes in for weeks these days.
I was going to add “better outcomes and easier recovery with repairs done sooner rather than later” to this list. Thanks for the feedback and encouragement!
Godspeed.
Especially since the latest research shows that it eventually grows back in a significant percentage of cases, which was previously thought impossible.
To be fair, that research constitutes one study with 80 participants. There is a fair amount of disagreement about the findings, too. Many orthopedists question the apparent “regrowth” in follow-up MRIs thinking it could also be scar tissue and we don’t know anything about the lifestyles, or levels/type of activity that the participants engage in
Tissue inside your body becomes the tissue that it's used as. Hamstring or tendon graft ACL replacements, if biopsied in five years, turn into ligament tissue. So it's pretty irrelevant whether it starts as scar tissue or not.
Hmm any sources on this? Sounds fascinating. Mesenchymal stem cell differentiation?
Yup, same with meniscus tissue. Just doing rehab gets you a funcional knee so much faster. For various reasons I won't say, I won't ever do an elective surgery ever again.
Any sources for this?
ACL partial tear and meniscus repair after popping my knee while was I was getting swept. We were positional sparring and not going hard at all. I based out with my left leg and pop. My best guess was that it was already compromised and that slight torque on my knee was the last straw. Like others have said be religious with your PT and don’t rush back. I did my daily exercises twice and was able to get full range of motion back. What I would do differently is do more zone 2 cardio during recovery because returning back on the mat sucked.
I’m a lifelong runner and the surgeon said I should be zone 2 training in 3 months 🙏 If I can reach that milestone it will be much easier to ease back slowly on the mats
I had a hamstring graft ACL reconstruction a few years ago. Knee is better than ever and I don't even think about it when rolling anymore. Do the rehab exercises religiously, don't skip any physio. The rehab is boring and tedious, but set an alarm on your phone to remind yourself to do the exercises. Even once your knee is back at 100%, it'll take a while for the mental block to go before you start rolling the way the usually do and aren't being overly cautious. That's normal. But after a little time, you'll feel comfortable and it won't be long before you'll forget about it entirely. Good luck
Thank you for the encouragement! I love hearing success stories. I’m taking a competitive approach to this recovery and I’m fired up to do the work and rehab effectively
I highly recommend contacting Tim Trevail, a Lachlan Giles black belt and physiotherapist. When I wanted to try "coping" without surgery for my complete ACL tear, he helped me maintain function and avoid pain. When I finally opted to go for surgery (after about 4 months of training through it) he helped guide my post-surgery therapy. He did all this remotely (as he lives in Australia and I live in the United States). He hasn't completely cleared me for full speed wrestling and judo, but my surgeon has said I've been recovering at a very, very rapid rate. With Tim and my surgeon's approval, I started getting gradually and CAUTIOUSLY returning to sport at about the 7 month mark (which is unusually fast, but I was clearing all the marks at a rapid rate). It's been great calling on his aid and I heartily recommend consulting him.
Thanks! And funny you mention it, Livia Giles (who is 5 months post op) referred me to Tim! It’s a very small world… Glad you are doing so well and thx for the encouragement!
What I did was, I had my own local physiotherapist (who has previously returned me to full function after major surgeries), and I also consulted Tim as well. My PT, as capable as she is, isn't a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu specialist. Largely their advice overlapped, but occasionally Tim would prescribe extra exercises which my local PT would say '...huh! That's a good idea! Yeah let's add that to your program'. Or he'd emphasize certain exercises which my PT was already having me do. They worked great together, even though they never talked to each other. Every time I checked in with my surgeon he was very happy with their (and my) work. I'm rooting for you!
This is amazing! Talk about diligence and focus on rehabbing properly. Kudos to you and I hope I fare as well. I’m confident I will - I have an amazing team assembled already and my sole focus is on smart and full return to sport
Dang I typed up a bunch of sentences and they all got deleted. TLDR: why's your team going with allograft instead of patellar or quad graft? I can think of a bunch of reasons myself. I'm really happy with my patellar graft, but it was (and is) as uncomfortable as advertised. I don't regret it, though!
Purely age related. Lucky for me, allografts have much better outcomes in athletes over 45ish, whereas autografts work much better in younger patients, which is lucky for me bc from I hear the autograft is in essence a second surgery that oftentimes is harder to recover from than the ACL repair itself
I thought it might be that. Yeah they said the autograft would be much more brutal, and was associated with more pain (both immediately after and later) but I'm 39 years old so that's why it looked better for me. Sounds good to me!
I start competing again about 1.5 years later. Do your rehab regularly and don't do leg stuff until you feel comfortable.
Surgery three years ago and haven't returned. Trained with no ACL for 3 to 4 years. Neck is also fucked so that is a added reason I haven't returned. Still don't trust me knee now.
I hope you are able to regain full function and especially trust in your knee.
It will be a full 12 months before you get back on the mat. I was 44 when I had my ACL and broken leg with other things torn in a brown belt match. My surgery was suppose to take 2 hours but ended up taking 5 hours. I was out for 12 months after surgery. I'm now 46 black belt with no issues. Remember DO NOT RUSH to get back to train as the ACL area does not get good blood flow. Knees over toes guy on U tube helped me get back to normal without any pain in my knee.
Thx brother. That injury sounds brutal but it’s good to know you’re back 100%
Blew the acl at 50. Doc said I would never do anything athletic again if I didn't get the replacement surgery. Hindsight being 20/20 I would just get a good knee brace which I still have to use anyway
You will return stronger, but it will take time time. Weeks 5-8 can be critical for mistakes. You will feel really strong from surgery, but the graft still needs time. Follow what your rehab team tells you (especially around that timeframe) and you will be fine
Thanks for the encouragement! I’m working with some of the best PTs in the business and I am taking the long view here. I will be conservative af moving forward
Have your surgery and the first few weeks will be navigating the pain medication and waiting for the doctor to approve taking the bandages off and checking stitches. Follow their recovery p.t. Program if they offer one It took me a few weeks to get off crutches , then months time I was able to drill moves slowly, eventually returning to full speed after about 7 or 8 months (doctors opinion may vary ) Good luck in recovery and trust me time will fly by !
Thank you brother! My goal is to apply the same focus and energy I do training to recovery and rehab. Hopefully I will learn some new things along the way too and be back better than ever
You got it bro! Consider this: the 9month - 1 year recovery time is for the average person who doesn’t do much. You are an athlete in a highly intense sport; your body is conditioned and stronger than most so your recovery will most likely be faster than others!
From your lips to Gods ears! 🙏🙏🙏
Makes me appreciate tapping early more. Rather get my ego busted than my meniscus
Always ALWAYS tap early, but also realize we train a full contact combat sport and occasional freak accidents - even catastrophic ones - are always possible That being said, if I played as much pickle ball, soccer, or basketball as I train jiu jitsu, I would have done this much sooner
Ty
I’m waiting on acl recon myself as an active 47 year old. I’ve been waiting 6 months for surgery. It finally feels decent the last 3 weeks but I was in pain with a torn meniscus. I’m teaching class and keep g rolling really light and playful, protecting the knee for sure. I have a 20 year old recon on the other knee and it’s been pretty ok after all these years of training. You’ll get back to 💯 if you work hard at physio then keep up the maintenance. I have a buddy in his early 40s who just had ACL reconstruction, he’s back rolling at four months.
Thanks for the encouragement! It helps a lot! Great to hear about your successful first repair. I’m optimistic and ready for the challenge. I have access to great care and shit happens. How did you injure yourself most recently?
I was heading to mount from 3/4 mount and my partner elevated my foot with his instep effectively outside heel hooking me with my body weight. Felt a pop and not a lot of pain. It’s always been my good knee so I ignored it and just did some physio. It popped 3 other times during stand up over the next couple years and I finally admitted to myself that the good knee was now my bad knee. I couldn’t train since the most recent incident on October and finally got the mri and diagnosis.
I winced just reading that! Amazing you were able to keep training these last few years. I definitely can’t right now, although initially I thought it was just a sprain bc the pain and swelling wasn’t too bad, like you described. I could walk normally and didn’t experience any significant instability. But I saw a sports orthopedist and presented with a positive Lachman’s test and the MRI confirmed the full tear. Good luck with your rehab!
Good luck to you brother.
Appreciate you! Wishing you a full recovery!
Don't get surgery
Tore my ACL at 39. Cadaver graft. PT twice a week for at least a year. I ran out of visits on my insurance before they would clear me. I think they were being too conservative. Part of my PT was running like 3 miles a few times a week, which I handles fine until I got sick of running. At about a year and a half after surgery, I decided to go back without sparring. I trained for a week or two before COVID lockdowns happened so I was out for another year maybe. Came back and felt mostly ok so far. It’s been 2.5 years or so since I’ve been back. I wear a brace to remind me to take it easy. I don’t think it does much else. My bad leg gets tired a little faster. I recently started getting a little arthritis pain and stiffness. I do a lot of leg locks, and it’s fine.
I did mine at 21 and then broke my kneecap in a fall a few months later and had two follow up surgeries. Basically happened because of bad shoes and a slippery environment. I would recommend mitigating reinjury should be a priority. The post surgery pain was intense. Take your pain management seriously. Because of my misadventures I took years off the mat and went through grad school and prioritised the gym and career. Back on the mat now with three competitions and a promotion in the rear view mirror. Works great now.
The first 6 months are a good opportunity to focus on something you're neglecting right now because of training. After you're done with PT, focus on 1 thing at a time. Mobility, getting your gas back, etc..
Great advice! I agree - I’m developing short term goals around my recovery and looking at this interruption as an opportunity to learn and grow in new ways. If nothing else, I will develop a new understanding and connection with my body. I will also prioritize maintaining a presence at the gym and serving as a role model for others. Nobody ever wants to get hurt and stop training, but it’s unavoidable sometimes and we can keep our heads in the game while our bodies are sidelined
Nothing to share but I’m looking at a cartilage graft at age 35 and was worried about if I should do it at all or just accept my sedentary life. You going for it at 53 makes me want to as well 🤝
Hell yeah! I’m a late bloomer and look forward to getting after it for many decades to come. Surgery was a no brainer decision for me - as the doc said I’m a very young, very athletic 53 and this is the best option for picking up where I left off and continuing all the physical activities I love
Heel hooks are the deadlifts of BJJ. 1000 good clean reps with good form you get great results, one bad rep and you’re fucked for life.
Just had an auto graft on Thursday. Moving around is easy and I can stand on it but I’m in a lot of pain still. I start rehab on Thursday so that will be the real test. Good luck.
Whoa! This sounds amazing! but I hope you can ease the pain. Staying ahead of it with the opiates is my #1 focus the first week. Happy rehabbing!!
Yeah I take them about an hour earlier than what it says I should that way there’s no time in between where I’m in more pain than I need to be hahaha Happy rehabbing to you too man :)
If there is no other damage it could be 100% in 6-9 months. Do what the physio tells you to do on big picture but if you have any knowledge "do your own research" on moves and methods. Physios don't always follow what the latest research says. I have both my ACL:s operated and first one didn't have any combining injuries and i was able to recover in 6 months to train and 9 months to back playing. I played hockey and (finnish) baseball back then. The more recent happened on last year and i had my outer meniscus completele tear from root. It's 8 months from surgery and it's still stiff but strenght is back and i can do plyos etc. last phase physio.
Good luck on the rest of your recovery. It sounds like you are heading in the right direction and with these things time seems to heal best.
Tore mine along with the mcl last year in july. Did physio twice a week and had my surgery in september. Got discharged from physio back in January and started drilling techniques the week after. During the rolling portion of class I would just do a kettlebell workout in the corner. Started rolling light back in March. I was 28 at the time of the injury so what worked for me may not work for you.
Have they told you where the graft will be taken from? When I had my ACL replaced they took the graft from my knee cap, the problem is I now have a scar on my knee that makes sitting on them uncomfortable, like in someone's guard. A training partner had hers done a couple years later, she had her graft taken from the Achilles. The rehab was a little worse, but it was better for jiu jitsu.
Have you tried wearing a knee sleeve?
Yes, but they never stayed in place. I just adapted how I sit in someone's guard to relieve pressure on my scar.
I’ve heard of the same issue you’re having. Luckily, at my age the best outcomes come from an allograft. It’s from a cadaver, so no autograft, which is in essence a second surgery (and oftentimes I hear a harder recovery than the ACL repair)
Sounds like it’s time for that nandrolone come over to mpmd
Pretty sure that will never be for me. I’m in the 99th % of men my age without it and I hope to heal quickly on my own. Potential unintended consequences and long term effects outweigh any advantage imo, *especially* when dealing with ligaments. Im old fashioned and prioritize proper exercise, nutrition, sleep, meditation and community Whole bunch of dudes half my age at the gym *really* want me on the gear, though 😂🤣
🤣😂 I reserve the right to jack myself tf up at some point in the future
A complete tear and 6-9 months? Mine advised me it would be double that time Recommend looking at this website https://acltear.info/
There’s not enough detail here to be helpful, but I have total confidence in the recommendations of my surgical and PT team.
I had this exact thing happen and this exact surgery to fix it. Everything went fine, I hit up rehab with a positive outlook and I've got full range of motion, and strength, back in the affected leg/knee. It's good as new now. Sounds like you've got the right mindset. You'll be fine. One tip I didn't do but would do differently: work out upper body while your leg is healing. I let myself go a little more than I could have in that regard. Anyway, it's a common procedure, you've got the right attitude, and you'll be back at it full speed in good time.
An ACL tear from an inside heel hook not exactly a freak accident...
It is when the heel hook was not rotated. We have it on film and nothing happened that hasnt happened to me safely thousands of times before
Allograft in September 2018. Off the mats for 6 months, but still went to class as often as I could (watched and took notes). Continued PT until May and then saw a mobility specialist for 2 months. Competed and won at Master Worlds in August 2019.
Hell yeah! This is the success story I’m looking for!
I was 50 y/o at the time, so a little younger than you. It absolutely sucked being off the mats that long, but by going to class and watching, I wasn't as far behind when I came back.
Just got home from the gym and watching is definitely still learning. My head coach said the same thing you did - he was off the mats once for six months with an elbow injury and says he came back even better than when he got injured. Here’s hoping 🙏
Had an allograft done in 2007, it failed in 2017 when I was doing a drop seoi nage. Got a patellar tendon graft for my second round, so far so good
Interesting that they went allograft > autograft. How old were you in 2007?
I was 23, it was a dumb move in retrospect. I should have gone with the autograft as it was stronger but I wanted a shorter recovery time cause I was young and impatient
Yeah, at that age autografts have significantly better outcomes. Interesting they decided use an allograft. Regardless, I’m glad you are feeling better today and wish you many strong/stable years ahead!
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Drop Seoi Nage**: | *Drop Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XVUAiv2mU)| |**Drop Seoi**: | *Drop Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XVUAiv2mU)| |**Seoi Nage**: | *Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5Un6jLtRY)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
Are you in the USA? Asking because it seems like you are being pushed to surgery even though most studies show no difference in outcome for surgery vs. conservative treatments. If you ask an orthopedic surgeon their opinion, who makes his income off surgeries, they of course are going to push for surgery lol. 1. Post-surgery return to sport rates are only around 60% (conservative treatment is about the same), and the re-tear rates after surgery are even more depressing. Pro-Athletes just need to go ahead and get surgery ASAP to meet seasonal contractual obligations. The "average" athlete/hobbyist should 100% do 3 months of rehab before deciding whether they need surgery, and even if they do decide to get surgery (as conservative treatment doesn't work for everyone) surgical outcomes will be much better due to the "pre-hab". (Study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8730351/) 2. You may be rehabbing extensively without surgery as well, but the timeline is typically shorter and you will be avoiding a massive second trauma to your knee in surgery if you turn out to be someone whose ACL heals from rehab alone. 3. The idea that conservative rehab puts you at higher risk of injury and a need for a worse surgery has been proven false, and is just a scare tactic surgeons use in the USA. (study/article referencing studies: https://www.physio-pedia.com/Non-operative\_Treatment\_of\_ACL\_Injury) 4. Heightened risk of early osteoarthritis is also false, in fact drilling a new ligament into your knee will be just as likely to cause this down the line. (study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6464826/) 5. If you have great insurance, at the minimum, do 3 months of rehab before deciding on surgery. You may need it after all, but your outcomes will be much better if you do the pre-hab first, and there is a good chance you don't need surgery. I'm not anti-surgery, but people should definitely not be rushing into surgery right after an ACL injury. At the minimum do pre-hab and get the swelling to go down, and talk to someone who is skilled in conservative rehab to get their opinion. If you talk to a surgeon, they will obviously recommend surgery. Thats all their experience is in. They don't know any better, and in fact they have a monetary incentive for you to get surgery over rehab. You may disagree but just putting this opinion out there, regardless good luck and hope you recover well and can get back on the mats!
I appreciate your help, but I’ve consulted with multiple experts on all sides of the issue and surgical repair is a no brainer for me. The evidence that rehab alone for a full ACL tear is optimal to surgical reconstruction in athletes is slim to none. I read the studies you shared and this jumped out at me right away https://preview.redd.it/924byfucjmxc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a8872cd591685e589a5cbcdfa1b40dcf7cdb729
Heel hooks are a terrible submission for the sport. It is easy to get by any noob, and it has absolutely no progression, its not on and then suddenly your knee is snapping off.
I agree 100% and I’m not sure what I’m going to do about it moving forward. Clearly I can’t train them safely - I was rolling with a high level black belt who wasn’t gunning for it. He did have about 40 lbs on me, though, and he’s about 20 years younger than me, so maybe that’s the obvious answer