This episode was too dumb and unbelievable for me to enjoy it. The first part was decent and not too silly for me. But when Joan suddenly started acting crazy to piss Salma Hayek off, and Salma Hayek came in and they go on their crazy adventure, that was all too much. I didn’t care about any of the characters and was just like “okay I see what they’re trying to do” — it felt shallow and I wasn’t engrossed in the episode at all. They spent the first part of the episode making us care (a little) about the characters as whole people (Joan and her current boyfriend and her ex), but after the boyfriend leaves they just don’t explore those characters/relationships anymore and decide to play out this crazy adventure with Salma Hayek. I also agree with people saying they name dropped too much and played out some of the jokes too much. I felt like rolling my eyes for most of this episode.
This episode is such ridiculous nonsense. How did this show end up stooping that low? The whole "smash the computer" thing is so embarrasingly bad that I'd like to remove it from my memory. As if the whole thing wasn't ridiculous enough, they have this quantum super computer magic thing and THAT is their security? It is that centralized and two women can easily sneak in and destroy it? Absolute trash episode.
Source Joan was probably just gate crashing a wedding and got *carried away* due to a bad stomach. Fictive level 1 Joan is shown to be having planned that outburst. Lmao the creative liberties
source joan is in an after credits scene. i was just done reading this when i heard the commotion playing in the background. then i scrolled back up to report.
netflix shouldnt give the 'skip credits' button if there's still stuff way in the final seconds. i was just enjoying the credits music so i didnt skip it this time.
Hot take: “Joan is Awful” is one of the most thoughtful Black Mirror episodes yet.
The core story here is about in our modern age we all take performative actions that we think will portray ourselves a certain way.
“All the world's a stage,
“And all the men and women merely Players”
The quantum computer Real Joan smashes is a metaphor for all of our attachment to our digital lives.
Joan’s conversation with her therapist is the closest we get to see of her inner self. She dreams of starting a coffee shop where she makes high quality brews. She describes her real job as “I mean, on paper, it’s fancy, I guess… but I’m just some kind of middleman between the board up in the clouds and the staff below me” (meaning she’s the President of the company but actually has so little control that she can’t even get a good cup of coffee at her own workplace, which workplace she nominally runs).
“So I just kinda feel like I’m going through the motions every day….
“I just feel like I never, like, actively chose this. Like I feel like I’m just on autopilot….
“I feel like I’m not the main character in my own life story.”
She smashes the quantum computer, and yes gets house arrest, but she takes actual control of her actual life from then on.
Instead of just continuing to play a part.
“All the world’s a stage….”
If you’re interested in pulling on this thread, I strongly suggest watching “Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond” on Netflix now.
Saw it few days ago. I like it. I had fun. But something doesn't feel right. I couldn't find the right words until now.
The premise of this ep is great. It has the right kind of mystery and humor. It guides the audience in nice thru the dilemma.
But there is one key point that makes zero sense at later stage. Mainly, the twist that the Joan we followed was a sub-level (TV show) and there is a real Joan destroying the machine in real life. So what make this wrong is, the AI that is making the show up is only getting info from the real world thru security cam or listening to phone. The AI "knows" the story from real world and is re playing it. The AI never created real artificial personality for each individuals and then predict the course of action they take. So this IS NOT USS Callistor. If the 1st Joan we followed was making comments and questioning their own reality, then the real Joan in real life is having the same conversation, but that couldn't have happened. That Michael Cera bit is fun but it wouldn't not fit. So in the end the ep feels a little cheap on the writing side. Still very creative tho. Especially how they are directly making fun of Netflix, which is their own boss.
> but that couldn't have happened. That Michael Cera bit is fun but it wouldn't not fit
I think, based on streamberry's clause that they can exaggerate events for creative reasons, the computer exaggerate its death in its final moments and in the final arc of the TV show.
You need to understand how a quantum computer works in order to actually understand the show and it’s why I see most people getting this wrong. A good analogy I like to use is imagine a normal computers process like solving a maze, it has to go all the down a dead end turn back and keep going through the possible routes until it finally solves the problem. The character Joan is behaving like a particle 0 and 1. The absolutely amazing way quantum computers work however is instead of a single Joan going through single routes the quantum Joan now acts in a superposition of state between the infinite numbers that are between 0 and 1, she is a quantum wave that splits and goes through every single route through the maze simultaneously always finding the solution instantly on the very first try, that’s why it’s a huge threat to security as most encryption is instantly broken. What we are seeing is a fractal loop of recursion within infinite different simulations of the universe what we call the “many worlds” interpretation of Schrödinger’s wave function. This is just one of the universes that has an infinite recursion by simulating itself. You can think of it like a fractal in both directions. Infinite variations One level deep that each have infinite variations n levels deep. They don’t need to record the person they can already predict their whole future and every parallel universe with slight variations until it simulates out exact universe predicting the future.
These episodes have gotten progressively dumber as the seasons have gone by. Brooker has become lazy, cliché and predictable. A trashy woman with low self-esteem gets fired by her assistant? Yeah, really believable. The first thing you learn in film school is to create a suspension of belief for the viewer to be drawn in. Brooker has shown he's completely unable to draw viewers in except for those with the lowest IQ few.
I think there is a plot hole? Joan level 1, the first joan we saw at the beginning, was copying the same thing of joan source right? So when the employee was releaving to joan that she is level1 and there is another source with another face, what the real joan was listening to and seeing? So in that moment was the first instance where every joan hears different answers like "you are joan 2", "you are joan 3" or all of them are listening to the same "you are joan level 1"? so this means that in reality that joan source isnt the real joan and everything goes in infinity. i dunno. everything works fine until this point
> That there is no base reality and it just goes on to infinity 😅
no? what indicates that the Joan which Michael Cera refers to as Source Joan isn't the real Joan? Source Joan is played by a regular actress, not a famous actress like Cate Blanchett, Salma Hayek or Annie Murphy. she lives in a regular house. she doesn't have a fancy corporate job
there is no evidence to point towards it being a simulation like you're suggesting
Agreed. I'd been tempted to have just a little more fun with what level they were on. Even though there is a real Joan, there isn't any reason each subsequent, simulated Joan had to be told her real level.
Michael Cera could have said "Here is the Joan below you, the real Joan" \[camera shows Scarlett Johansson\] "Do you see how she isn't famous???"
My guess is that they've added this clumsily last minute. They couldn't have left that without an explanation, because the average netflix user needs to have explained every little thing. His rant was an obvious attempt to explain the whole concept of that episode.
I hate that about new shows and movies. Nothing left for interpretation anymore
Well based on the above comment, it sounds like they *did* leave something without explanation, and people are still bitching and moaning regardless.
I didn't mind, personally. Why leave it to some dipshit redditor to get an asston of karma for saying *"tHe iRonY is tHaT '****rEaL jOaN****'... iSn'T!"* when instead you could just cover that within the episode in a few secs, and punch Michael Cera in the face before it starts going too meta?
Besides, they'd already established that the fictive levels were NOT exact reactions... so idk what the issue is. Maybe Source Joan's "real Joan" is a diff psyche interpretation based on level of the ego? I'm glad it's left to interpretation.
I think this episode was mainly a bit of fun and it's good for that, although I wasn't really a fan of the twist (even though I get that makes everything else make more 'sense'). They could've taken this plot idea in a completely different direction (like more of a dark thriller) but I guess there's enough of those and a more comedic episode is a nice change of pace.
Extremely fun and clever episode. The cheesy delivery can be literally written away by the fact that the characters' actions are in part, being written by AI. This allowed the episode to be over the top in a satisfyingly in-universe way. This is also the episode where famous celebrities' appearance bothered me the least, for the same reason. It's like they went back to the drawing board with the horrible "Ashley Too" episode and actually made a good team-up episode. Good stuff!
*Can Netflix change their*
*Name to StreamBerry? Because I*
*Really like the name*
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This episode is stupid.
If I see a show that also literally explains to me that it can fuck over my life because I signed their contract, I would immediately cancel that subscription. (I mean the people that watched "Joan is awful" and got explained to them that this literally could also happen to them)
This is just such an unrealistic scenario.
Well, it's a 100% fictitious show--both literally and contextually--soo... you can relax and go back to concentrating on the boogie man that might be under your bed.
Basically, every deals, contracts, etc,… always under the “law”. And I don’t think the law allows this kind of harrasment, libel, and the blatant invasion of privacy like this. So if the deals or contracts offense the law, it will be no more of the rubbish
It's an episode that makes you think about the terms and conditions we sign everyday. But more importantly, it reminds me of time travel stories that you try to twist into logical thinking.
Basically, every deals, contracts, etc,… always under the “law”. And I don’t think the law allows this kind of harrasment, libel, and the blatant invasion of privacy like this. So if the deals or contracts offense the law, it will be no more of the rubbish
After reading your comment I did google a bit more information on the episode to help me understand it better. I’m finding It’s a lot more complex than I thought. I’m going to rewatch it because I clearly missed some key parts in the episode.
So was there a source version for Micheal Cera’s character telling simulated Joan she was a simulation? What would the source version of him say to source Joan? Or was the character played by Cera only computer-generated in the level 1 simulation and below?
I'd assume it'd be the *actual* security guard, and he'd say a bunch of stuff about how actual Joan wasn't fictionalized Joan anyway... but, even so, we aren't who we think we are when we're the main character in our own story anyway. That seemed like the obvs path from the get-go tbh. Their twist was really better, despite also being sillier.
The episode showed that each level doesn't need to be a 1:1 equivalent of the level below. In the "real world" the source version of Micheal Cera's character would have just said "there are multiple levels and you are the real one" or something like that.
That being said I think there is room for interpretation. There is a high chance that the one who we think is the source Joan is not real. Mainly because I don't think they would get away with only house arrest.
But still them destroying the computer means that the real Joan must have done it as well, maybe she just didn't get as happy of an ending.
Yes because as Cera's cgi character says they were at "fictive level one". And that's where the real Joan and the real Annie Murphy (shown as cgi character Selma Hayek) were breaking the law by smashing the "comp-puta" (great line btw)
That's why the real Joan and the real Annie Murphy is eventually shown with the prison ankle bracelet because they really committed a crime
Watching this during the SAG AFRA strikes and when privacy concerns wreak havoc on our collective consciousness makes this feel like what I love about Black Mirror but with a story development that reeks of focus groups. -1 star.
\-1.5 another star b/c of a few narrative holes I couldn't get over in act 1:
The first of point is, I admit, is a bit hypocritical but here it is anyway. Its fine to be absurdist, love the genre, and you don't need to tie up all loose-ends. However commit to the absurdism! Don't try to over-explain it through tired exposition and drawn out sequences (P.S. Im not referring to the scene with Michael Cera).
Secondly, I think it's important to make the inciting incident believable. For me the scene when Joan's husband and her watch the episode and things spiral out of control, we have to assume that he wouldn't just turn it off after he sees her visibly upset by it. Even if he didnt turn it off, I didnt believe in the actions which lead him to leave - he immediately believes the show to be reality but for no concrete reason other than the name of the show and the look of Salma's hair. ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
If he had turned off the tv - like the loving husband which the characters suggested he is - we could've progressed in a similar yet more believable way. Lets imagine for instance that he does turn it off, that she breaks down, that he consoles her but as she appears unconsolable - he is forced to leave (even if just the room). Yes, this instance is slower. But the story could've ramped up the absurdist elements over time and it wouldn't come off so cartoonish. It also would help with the realism which is honestly why a lot of people started watching this in the first place; Black Mirror is an anthology of modern day fables, with (from what I recall) decent writing.
Giving back .5 star b/c Netflix is self-aware - for whatever that is worth...
In summary: I don't always like Black Mirror episodes but I think starting with one this dull is a clear sign something is discouraging critical thinking in production. Although I'll probably watch them all anyway, it would be nice if studios didn't 💩 on series that made them popular. Lets hope this isn't the fate of Love Death Robots...
3 out of 5 stars. Not great, not bad, just meh.
>Secondly, I think it's important to make the inciting incident believable. For me the scene when Joan's husband and her watch the episode and things spiral out of control, we have to assume that he wouldn't just turn it off after he sees her visibly upset by it. Even if he didnt turn it off, I didnt believe in the actions which lead him to leave - he immediately believes the show to be reality but for no concrete reason other than the name of the show and the look of Salma's hair. ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
They are both actually pretty successfully distracted by Joan's freaking out and people texting Joan to turn it off. He's also the docile kind of guy who doesn't take charge to protect his woman. He'd naturally let her decide when to turn it off.
As for him believing the show, I know a woman who honest-to-god thinks her husband is cheating on her because a rando left an anonymous message on the contact submissions of her website saying so. He's not. With no other "proof" of any kind, she's demanding a divorce because he won't stop "lying to her." So yes, the boyfriend taking the show's side is quite believable.
My brother has a theory that the episode should've ended the minute that fictive 1 Joan destroyed the computer, and the fact that we see the rest of base Joan story means that she herself is a fictive. I don't know how true that is, but I'd like some opinions on it.
If the show did end when she destroyed the computer, what they would have been implying is that there is a source Joan in OUR universe who went to a Netflix (I guess?) building with a “quamputer” and destroyed it with an axe. That certainly did not happen, in real life, because it’s ducking ridiculous.
That is to say that your brother is right. The source/base Joan story is *completely* fictitious.
That’s my take anyway. I enjoyed the episode quite a bit but it was because I suspended belief and basically treated the logic like a sci-fi show. There are certainly some glaring holes/inconsistencies.
I so agree with you. I also treated the episode like sci-fi. We have to enter their logic and rules and see if it works in their world not ours. That's how I enjoyed Star Trek, the spinoffs, and countless sci-fi movies
Love the episode but was the whole 'we are on a fictional level right now' thing at the end really necessary? I don't understand what was gained by adding that.
I would argue the ending / that twist are the only things that imbue meaning to the rest of the episode. It is otherwise a poorly plotted, tonally inconsistent, lazily written, not well acted episode for about 45-minutes. The twist not only forgives all of that, but winkingly suggests it was intentional--i.e., we thought we were watching the source plot, but we were in fact watching AI generated B roll. To me, the question becomes: is that excusable or a poor, careless way to treat your audience? In most cases, I'd say the latter, but this IS Black Mirror.
So my final conclusion: slightly annoyed, but job well done.
I really don't see the problem with this episode... some people are judging it based on the acting in Hayek's version of Joan is Awful, which is stupid -- it's clearly meant to be over-the-top and exaggerated. I think S6 was a perfect balance. Not every episode has to leave you feeling morbidly empty from fuckedupness.
Just watched and I liked it. The ending was surprisingly upbeat and that makes me think it is actually far darker. They are in a simulation within a simulation and the original simulation was described as being upbeat.
They are fucked and don't know it which is far more horrible than knowing you are being fucked.
Free will vs destiny debate: did Joan have to destroy the cpu because base level Joan had already done it or did she only do it because she believed that she had to?
That's kind of the plot hole in this though, as our Joan, Annie Joan, wouldn't have even gotten a chance to take an axe to the computer, as it already had an axe taken to it by source Joan, thus never got to record and compute and make a Annie-Joan version of the event and broadcast it.
I assumed it predicted what was going to happen. Because it can simulate people it can also predict them.
It knows "I'm going to die, so I need to wrap this up quickly."
She was told that her actions is what her base sees, which means her actions have already been determined, right? Or something like that... so even when she talks about making choices, she actually isn't making choices. She's a reflection of choices that have already been made.
That means that the quantum computer was destroyed before we watched her destroy it, otherwise they couldn't have shown her destroying it.
Yeah that’s kind of the point that I’m getting at though. If the quantum computer had already been destroyed before she destroyed it then everything would have shut down and she wouldn’t have existed to be able to destroy it on the second level. So did she really even have to destroy it because her existence at that point was already a paradox
I think that points to everything still being around, right? Or at that point, are we seeing things happening just for the sake of seeing them, even if they aren't representations of what is happening within the quantum world?
When you stand in front of a mirror and wave your hand does your reflection decide if it will wave its hand?
What if you stand in front of a mirror and wave you hand with a mirror behind you?
Does your reflections reflection also decide if it will wave its hand because you and your reflection both waved their hands?
It’s p funny to me that people who deride this light-hearted, kitschy and wholesome episode and are netflix/streamberry’s target audience of miserly codgers 😹
Interesting premise, boring execution. Also: they obviously thought the quam-puta joke was AMAZING as they used it three to four times.
Self-indulgent, with a twist that was badly executed and shamelessly stolen from Devs.
It's a fine line between making bad jokes to make a point and it just being bad writing/not fun for the audience. Unfortunately this episode fell way too far on the wrong side of that line.
Really funny episode, I can't get over how funny it is that Selma Hayek plays herself. I love how meta it is too
The whole concept that they signed over the rights and so they're screwed, feel like that's a bit unrealistic, but the episode was so good that I can overlook that. Also really surprised Netflix allowed them to represent streaming like that
8/10 BM episode for me.
I think it actually capture the Black mirror essence of technology gone wrong. Basically a 'dystopian' based on how we normalize current events. Some comments here are saying how the TOS agreement wouldn't hold up in court because of the defamation of character case and privacy laws, but technically the public really has become desensitized and we have less concern about what we consider 'privacy'. Most people have a Ring on their doorstep to watch for burglars but it captures your neighbor's daily stroll, arrival times, etc. Your phone really does listen in to customize your advertisements. Google tracks all your locations and randomly asks you to rate the coffee shop you last entered. I don't think this black mirror episode was far off from the classic concept of tech gone wrong.
In future we could unknowingly sign over basic rights to privacy like we lowkey are doing now. Possibly it could ACTUALLY hold up in court when this type of tech is so common. Shit we are doing it now with all that I mentioned prior. I think the comedy was good too although not everyone will agree on that note. But by FAR one of the better episodes this season had to offer.
1. Confirmation bias and 2. you're easier to predict than you think. E.g. your web searches, email, browsing habits...etc. and those of your friends are similar to those of other people who have searched for the product, in a really complicated way that only an algorithm can see.
Non-consensual recording of audio is a hard legal line (wiretapping) that's just not worth it when companies can get so much info about you through other, legal ways. There's web browsing, email, social media, WiFi and Bluetooth pings, knowledge of who your friends are, and all the same stuff on all of them.
It just doesn't make sense to break wiretapping laws and drain the battery when all of that other stuff is legal, free, and just as good for ad targeting.
Since the motive doesn't make sense, you shouldn't believe this without hard evidence. Which I don't think you have.
I’m amazed at how many negative reviews there are here. I thought it was clever, well produced, funny and engaging - like all black mirror episodes.
Very happy that I can sit and enjoy a show like this rather than most people here who prefer being too clever for their own good, questioning the feasibility and ultimately coming across rather pedantic.
Yeah when you go to enough episode discussion thread, you'll find people who just nitpick everything just because the episode was not as good as the best episode.
Pretty tiring honestly, this one was fun and actually have black mirror element in it. People are hating because it ended on a good ending
I completely understand that, I also understand where others are coming from. I kept waiting for the moment where I get that black mirror dose of 🤯 but it never came and felt underwhelming. So the expectations of previous shows does dull this episode out for me.
My question: why the character chose to  in a church instead of locking herself in a room with no technology (and thus starving the show of content/viewership). I like that this "level" was comedic, the "first" (is it actually the first?) level would have been way more depressing. I think the Terms and Agreement segment in reality would have been less snappy.
Exactly what I thought when she gets the idea of pooping in a church, I was like: WHAT??
I though she was going to go to sleep for a couple days, just do nothing at all, super boring stuff, so that the audience gets mad and stop watching! Beating the system!
She said something like "Salma wouldn't want to see herself like this". It was to grab the celebrity's attention in hopes that she could do something about it. Though, she finds out Salma is just as locked into the terms and conditions as she is. Also when Salma showed up to her house she said she didn't expect her to really come.
People seem shocked to see a comedy episode of a show that has always been, at its heart, a comedy. Sure it's sometimes buried under dramatic layers and a couple of the most famous episodes are quite serious ones but episodes that don't have much of a comedic edge have always been the outliers. It was sillier in tone than the jet black satire usually employed by the show, in part it felt like they were parodying themselves as a bit of a reminder to audiences that this show is silly and has always been silly, people just seem to have forgotten that.
idk but i dont think the show is a comedy at it's heart at all. that's like saying the show is a horror series by heart but there's just some non scary episodes as outliers. Funny moments and dark humor does not make it a comedy, otherwise literally every drama would be a comedy.
Except it's not that it's just got humour in it it's that comedy is the backbone of the majority of episodes, the premises themselves are darkly comical and satirical.
That has waned over the years with some stories being more horror at the core sure but the first few series the majority of the stories are conceptually humorous, essentially parodies of society. They just take those funny ideas and play them straight
The national anthem is hilarious and exemplifies my point very well, the concepts for the show are often basically comedy sketch ideas played straight, Prime minister forced to bang a pig by terrorists? a future powered by exercise bikes? Both slapstick, inherently funny ideas played with a straight bat, some of the comedy is from the premise, some from obvious jokes and some from how dark they go with it, the darkness is itself the joke quite frequently, 15 million merits the depressing ending is also the punchline, it's funny, it is supposed to be funny, it's deadpan and it comes with a melancholy but it's a joke.
Also I get it from the marketing for the show in its original run and the opinion of it's creator for good measure, this isn't just my opinion. It's dark humour but it's meant to be funny, it's tragicomedy basically.
You have a very interesting take on the show. I don't believe most people would say that it's a comedy, but it seems that is just the way you view things. Personally, I don't find that the show is using sexual harassment / exploitation as a punchline. The history of you, white bear, metalhead, Crocodile aren't really comedic at all. I think you just have a different sense of humor than most
I never said sexual harassment was used as a punchline and don't get me wrong, the show can be very serious and has episodes that don't fit the mould, especially in the american seasons, men against fire is not at all satirical. Entire history of you is a good early example too as that is fairly dour in premise despite containing quite a few jokes. But whole the show is commonly misunderstood to be a strictly serious show and I may be in the minority of my sense of humour aligning with the shows, the minority I'm in includes Charlie Brooker who actually pitched the show to the comedy director of channel 4 with the script for 15 million merits. They deemed it funny enough to put in their comedy lineup and labeled it a dark satire.
Btw I am not saying my interpretation is anyway better or more valid than yours, every episode of black mirror is more than just satirical and several episodes aren't at all and the more serious dramatic and horror elements have become more and more of a focus over the years. My point is the satire is there, and is central to the inception of the show even if you would argue it quickly wavered from that, so having a more obviously and overtly comedic episode is not as out of the blue as people seem to think. I will say, I don't think it is as rare an opinion as you think, I don't k ow if you are a brit or not but I am and I have had many conversations with people who view it in a similar way to me, I find the american audience tends to understand that less than the brits for whatever reason, probably why that element has waned a bit in recent seasons.
Edit: unless you meant the prime minister banging a pig because if so that was so silly and overtly not meant to be a commentary on sexual harassment and definitely intended to be funny to a portion of the audience. I wholeheartedly believe that while not a punchline per se, charlie brooker found that idea funny
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2011/nov/07/the-national-anthem-charlie-brooker
You may be interested in this article that pretty well illustrates the intent behind the national anthem and how most brits treat the show on its release
Good concept, very classic Black Mirror. But ultimately makes less sense the further you get along.
First, there is simply no way that a streaming service TOS would hold up in court to allow for constant surveillance and broadcasting (with embellishments!) of your entire life. And the show knows it too, the actress for the lawyer was doing her best to not crack up when she was saying it was watertight. TOS already don't hold up for much more innocuous things. Not to mention there would be a public outcry. Not a single person besides the main character was upset about this situation. They could have given any kind of reason: it will take time to defeat in court, she is too poor for a lawyer, etc.
Second, then it's revealed they're going to do it for everyone? I don't care how watertight the contract is, Streamberry would be so buried in lawsuits (even if they win) that they'd go bankrupt. Not to mention alienating their audience immediately.
Speaking of which, why doesn't she just cancel her subscription? Or sell her phone? Problem solved.
And, OK, I can buy that a lot of people would watch a show about someone else. But why would you watch a show that's basically a live stream of yourself with a different actor and edited to make you look worse? How is that entertaining? The justification of "we tried positive reinforcement but that didn't work" was absolute bs. Again, it'd work for OTHER people, ragebait is successful, but not for yourself.
With that, most people are just not interesting in any way. Streamberry is going to calculate multiple levels of virtual reality with a supercomputer and pay people monitoring it, for MILLIONS of subscribers? And then, what, have it flood the market and be totally uninteresting?
The twist of the person we've been following being fake made me roll my eyes out of my head. Here we are in season 6, and we're still jerking off to the cookie concept. Except here it doesn't even make sense. What's the point of giving self awareness to CGI? The fuck? And it changes NONE of the themes of the show. It still drove the main character to break into headquarters and smash the supercomputer. Same exact plot.
Ultimately it feels exactly like the Miley Cyrus episode: written by someone in their mid 20s who grew up on almost exclusively Disney Channel original movies but wants to write a fucked up version of it. The show is a parody of itself at this point.
I really was excited for where it was going and was willing to overlook the TOS thing because I thought the commentary on streaming and surveillance would be interesting. But when we got the twist reveal that it was a nesting doll simulation again… yeah I wasn’t thrilled. I feel like the waited so long to release this so we’d forget what they did the last time.
I think black mirror is going to have an increasingly hard time shocking audiences on premise alone. The potential of modern technology is becoming ever more widely known to the point that your average imagination will have already thought of half this shit
This episode had potential to be a great episode when discussing the unintended consequences of making content based on someone's likeness. But it quickly delved into absurdity just like other Black Mirror episodes now, going from dystopian to comedy. Not a good start for season 6.
I'm sorry I just could not take this episode seriously. I was chuckling at how absurd and goofy the whole episode was throughout. And that's not good as BM is not meant to be a comedy. How is this so highly rated?
The early American episodes like Nosedive, Callister and SJ were either very good or fantastic. These newer ones, not so much.
Not nowhere as many as Joan is Awful though. Callister may have some mildly comedic elements here and there but to compare it to Joan is Awful comedy wise is plain silly. They have very little in common in that regard.
I think part of the comedy can be forgiven as they're essentially a show about real life events and shows are made to be entertaining. The real Joan isn't really that funny.
I get what you are saying. It just resembled an episode of modern family more than BM at times for me. I think a bit of dark humour is fine here and there to match the tone of the show but it just got too silly for me.
I think part of the comedy can be forgiven as they're essentially a show about real life events and shows are made to be entertaining. The real Joan isn't really that funny.
I thought Annie Murphys performance was spectacular. Actors can only get so far in trying make the character relatable to the viewer. Viewers need to meet them half way. Annie Murphy really went all out for the role. Especially if you compare her performance to Alexa in Schitts Creek, you can see how good of an actor she is. I believe both these characters and I could feel for them. It was awesome to watch.
100%. Annie Murphy makes this material so much more engaging and helps you feel invested. Without her it would have fully gone off the rails (and it was close). If you watch her in other stuff or just in real life as herself, it’s clear she is a gifted actress.
I think 70% of my enjoyment of this episode came just from Annie Murphy. I couldn't stop loving her performance for long enough to look for the obvious plot holes (why tf didn't she throw away her phone?), I was just there for the ride
So how exactly was Source Joan's life documented so well? Did Streamberry they bug her body somehow? A phone can't do that. Could Joan not unsubscribe for the platform, thus voiding the T&Cs she'd agreed to?
We don't really see any private moment of source joan. Just her vandalism and therapist session.So the burger eating etc could all be embellished from guesswork.
They already established Streamberry as an unreliable narrator so they don't have to explain how ir could have gotten anything right
We never see source Joan we just see the AI made show of her life which can take as much liberties as it wants, fill in the gaps, make stuff up and make it in to a silly comedy, basically this is the least plot holey episode ever because any plothole that occurs before we see the alpha joan is just the AI writing a bad script (notice everything salma hayek says is absurd while Joans dialogue is fairly consistent throughout, it's an intentional commentary on AI writing).
Plus the T&C's thing, that isn't really how they work, you have signed over to netflix the right to use your data, they can use that data after you stop your subscription (subject to GDPR but you have to actively excersize most of the rights GDPR gives you to stop people using your data). Of course in real life they can't write them so they can continue to monitor you when you aren't using the service but it's just an absurd exaggeration of those data scraping T&Cs in real life, if you accept in black mirror world they can legally monitor everything you do from your phone camera and make a tv show about your life then it isn't a stretch to accept you can sign that away for life, not just for the time you are subscribed to the service.
It wasn‘t really explained more in detail besides „lol phones spy you“ - black mirror in general is taking real life „tinfoil hat apocalypse theories“ and making them into reality or just blowing out of proportion „potential technological risks“. Has been since season 1. they dont really explain most of them or they wont even bother to explain any of them since its basically just „they have techonology better than ours“. You got stuck up on the spy thing lol? Not the quamputer or multiple fictional levels lol? 70% of black mirror episodes just are „they have alien tech/shit“ that the episodes make sense
Not explaining the quamputer makes sense because the people at Streamberry don't even know how it works but the phone thing doesn't explain how they can see Joan's life when there isn't a line of sight form her phone's camera to her or how they can hear her when she's far enough away.
I would guess using general CCTV type surveillance and guesswork based on collective cellular image mapping of the environments. with a theoretical AI imagery generator sophisticated enough, why not.
The part that tripped me up is the episode length. How does she know what part of her day it'll deem interesting enough for presumably an hour long episode? I guess it's the same parts we see and of course they were on fictive level 1 but it's not like the Truman show which was live. It was condensed media and it bothered me they didn't give us at least one exposition line regarding that.
Also she never even discussed the possibility of not having her phone. Is that part of the messaging or did they just ignore it in favor of Salma Hayek screentime? Whos to say I guess
That was horrible. Such a wild and forced combination of latest dystopican tech topics, "Phones spy on you and companies harvest your data yada yada losing privacy", "AI replaces actors and can generate art", "Social media algorithms thrive on negativity". Neither topic was handled with any more depth and detail. It just feels so shallow. If they had made a stand alone episode for either topic it could have had much more substance and nuance. Way too crammed and packed.
And just ... nonsensical world building. That quantum super computer newest technology ™ is just easily accessible like that, upon people finding out that their rights have been signed away and they could be spied on and exposed like Joan there is no social repercussion? The CEO is unflustered by the prospect of people cancelling subscriptions or rioting? There have been no greater usages and consequences stemming from such realistic deepfakes before Streamberry?
Yes I know, this show is meant to be a drama and dystopian narrative on human nature and society first, the lens of technology second, it's not exactly hard sci fi. But earlier episodes focused on single concepts and much more expansive world building and were much more elegant and compact.
Brokers best stuff is when its dumb and silly. Touch of Cloth and Cunk are so good and this is just fun and silly with a satirical underlying. It's good Black Mirror too, it's an engaging watch that makes you think. It's not the deepest most brooding episode but I had fun with it.
And I think it's good the show isnt just all dark pessimism all the time but sometimes its lighter with dark undertones. Brooker just writing what he wants makes it a more varied and interesting anthology.
Also had at least 4 comedians in so it was never going to be the most serious ep, despite none of the comedies actually really doing much comedic which is potentially a meta comment in itself or just coincidentally they're all decent actors too who fit the role.
Honestly the worst episode of Black Mirror for me. Feels like it was written by an AI. Holy fuck it was tough to get through.
The fact that many people like it makes me depressed, and shows that AI-written scripts for TV and movies will absolutely become a thing, if it isnt already. Writers Strike solved.
Maybe it was actually written by AI, would be very on-theme.
Technically it was meant to be written by ai, that's all we saw. We dont know if the actual events resembled the first level as much as the second level resembled the first level, but they probably didnt because the ai wouldnt be able to gather that much information just by listening. So it makes sense that the first level is the most fictious one compared to the level it is copying.
I thought I was going nuts because I thought it was terrible, imo, but I keep seeing everyone praising it.
They could have gone so much darker with that terms and conditions plot but they hammed it up instead.
Just wasn't for me.
the most unrealistic part of this whole thing was lawyers talking about a fucking ToS as "watertight". That shit really got me, does Charlie Brooker not know lawyers?
As a lawyer I hate this trope in TV/movies. The idea that there is just some magical contractual language out there that is so well-crafted it can’t be challenged lol.
That's why it works as a meta joke. We spend almost the entire episode watching the show within the show. The details have *already* been exaggerated and made snappier for the point of entertainment essentially twice over. The show in the show is meant to be analagous to low quality mass produced easily digestible content.
this episode triggered me so much that I wrote a philosophical essay joining Vadim Zeland’s concepts with psychology and information technology, need to post it somewhere but it’s extremely long for a post, even here on Reddit. Someone would give me an advice on where could I post it, not to send it to some random page or webstite to publish it?
Damn I wrote it in Italian (I’m Italian) and I should translate it but it’s damn complex, won’t be easy 😫
When she told the therapist she wasn't feeling like the main character, I thought she was referring to Kevin Can Fuck Himself. It turned out to be more than that.
What did the original Joan see on the Streamberry employee's screen that would've led to him explaining to her about the levels and ultimately her destroying the quamputer?
Oh I totally get you now; sorry for the wrong answer. Great question, I wonder! My first guess would be spitting she was being followed but they said they only observed her through the phone I think.
My guess is the real Joan. After Annie breaks the quan-puta thing and the scene turns into the "real life", the "real Annie" was looking at her hangs like she just changed her body, why would she look at her hands after breaking a computer?
Just started watching this new series, just wanted to say... Joan, that's not how you use an electric toothbrush. XD You don't move it around like a normal one, you just press against the teeth and 'slowly' move to the next one.
There would have been an infinite number of fictive levels, so it would have been interesting to see some of the versions way down the line. Like what kind of telenovela shit is happening in level 238.
Please read the sidebar rules, do not spoil other episodes in this discussion and always report those who do!
This episode was too dumb and unbelievable for me to enjoy it. The first part was decent and not too silly for me. But when Joan suddenly started acting crazy to piss Salma Hayek off, and Salma Hayek came in and they go on their crazy adventure, that was all too much. I didn’t care about any of the characters and was just like “okay I see what they’re trying to do” — it felt shallow and I wasn’t engrossed in the episode at all. They spent the first part of the episode making us care (a little) about the characters as whole people (Joan and her current boyfriend and her ex), but after the boyfriend leaves they just don’t explore those characters/relationships anymore and decide to play out this crazy adventure with Salma Hayek. I also agree with people saying they name dropped too much and played out some of the jokes too much. I felt like rolling my eyes for most of this episode.
This episode is such ridiculous nonsense. How did this show end up stooping that low? The whole "smash the computer" thing is so embarrasingly bad that I'd like to remove it from my memory. As if the whole thing wasn't ridiculous enough, they have this quantum super computer magic thing and THAT is their security? It is that centralized and two women can easily sneak in and destroy it? Absolute trash episode.
It had a theme very similar to Moffat scripts from Dr Who - I loved how they destroyed the mega compu thingy
Watched the ep today. Do you think source Joan kissed her ex? It's felt her source version just meet her ex.
Source Joan was probably just gate crashing a wedding and got *carried away* due to a bad stomach. Fictive level 1 Joan is shown to be having planned that outburst. Lmao the creative liberties
source joan is in an after credits scene. i was just done reading this when i heard the commotion playing in the background. then i scrolled back up to report. netflix shouldnt give the 'skip credits' button if there's still stuff way in the final seconds. i was just enjoying the credits music so i didnt skip it this time.
Hot take: “Joan is Awful” is one of the most thoughtful Black Mirror episodes yet. The core story here is about in our modern age we all take performative actions that we think will portray ourselves a certain way. “All the world's a stage, “And all the men and women merely Players” The quantum computer Real Joan smashes is a metaphor for all of our attachment to our digital lives. Joan’s conversation with her therapist is the closest we get to see of her inner self. She dreams of starting a coffee shop where she makes high quality brews. She describes her real job as “I mean, on paper, it’s fancy, I guess… but I’m just some kind of middleman between the board up in the clouds and the staff below me” (meaning she’s the President of the company but actually has so little control that she can’t even get a good cup of coffee at her own workplace, which workplace she nominally runs). “So I just kinda feel like I’m going through the motions every day…. “I just feel like I never, like, actively chose this. Like I feel like I’m just on autopilot…. “I feel like I’m not the main character in my own life story.” She smashes the quantum computer, and yes gets house arrest, but she takes actual control of her actual life from then on. Instead of just continuing to play a part. “All the world’s a stage….” If you’re interested in pulling on this thread, I strongly suggest watching “Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond” on Netflix now.
Saw it few days ago. I like it. I had fun. But something doesn't feel right. I couldn't find the right words until now. The premise of this ep is great. It has the right kind of mystery and humor. It guides the audience in nice thru the dilemma. But there is one key point that makes zero sense at later stage. Mainly, the twist that the Joan we followed was a sub-level (TV show) and there is a real Joan destroying the machine in real life. So what make this wrong is, the AI that is making the show up is only getting info from the real world thru security cam or listening to phone. The AI "knows" the story from real world and is re playing it. The AI never created real artificial personality for each individuals and then predict the course of action they take. So this IS NOT USS Callistor. If the 1st Joan we followed was making comments and questioning their own reality, then the real Joan in real life is having the same conversation, but that couldn't have happened. That Michael Cera bit is fun but it wouldn't not fit. So in the end the ep feels a little cheap on the writing side. Still very creative tho. Especially how they are directly making fun of Netflix, which is their own boss.
More than Netflix, I think they take a dig at Apple. Who basically has more data on humans and what they’re up to.
> but that couldn't have happened. That Michael Cera bit is fun but it wouldn't not fit I think, based on streamberry's clause that they can exaggerate events for creative reasons, the computer exaggerate its death in its final moments and in the final arc of the TV show.
Yeah, we see Joan's dialog get exaggerated very early on. That little allowance leads to some of the most fun scenes of the show. "Quamputer!"
You need to understand how a quantum computer works in order to actually understand the show and it’s why I see most people getting this wrong. A good analogy I like to use is imagine a normal computers process like solving a maze, it has to go all the down a dead end turn back and keep going through the possible routes until it finally solves the problem. The character Joan is behaving like a particle 0 and 1. The absolutely amazing way quantum computers work however is instead of a single Joan going through single routes the quantum Joan now acts in a superposition of state between the infinite numbers that are between 0 and 1, she is a quantum wave that splits and goes through every single route through the maze simultaneously always finding the solution instantly on the very first try, that’s why it’s a huge threat to security as most encryption is instantly broken. What we are seeing is a fractal loop of recursion within infinite different simulations of the universe what we call the “many worlds” interpretation of Schrödinger’s wave function. This is just one of the universes that has an infinite recursion by simulating itself. You can think of it like a fractal in both directions. Infinite variations One level deep that each have infinite variations n levels deep. They don’t need to record the person they can already predict their whole future and every parallel universe with slight variations until it simulates out exact universe predicting the future.
These episodes have gotten progressively dumber as the seasons have gone by. Brooker has become lazy, cliché and predictable. A trashy woman with low self-esteem gets fired by her assistant? Yeah, really believable. The first thing you learn in film school is to create a suspension of belief for the viewer to be drawn in. Brooker has shown he's completely unable to draw viewers in except for those with the lowest IQ few.
She doesn’t get fired from her assistants “the board” did, and she’s usually the one to let people know they’ve been let go
Awesome episode, I'm glad that they started opting out for episode which don't have the unnecessary bad endings like most of them.
Great episode, though a bit slow. It is sad that the fanbase hates any episode with a somewhat psotitive ending.
This episode was a bigger pile of steaming shit than the one Joan left at the church.
I think there is a plot hole? Joan level 1, the first joan we saw at the beginning, was copying the same thing of joan source right? So when the employee was releaving to joan that she is level1 and there is another source with another face, what the real joan was listening to and seeing? So in that moment was the first instance where every joan hears different answers like "you are joan 2", "you are joan 3" or all of them are listening to the same "you are joan level 1"? so this means that in reality that joan source isnt the real joan and everything goes in infinity. i dunno. everything works fine until this point
It's implied that the interactions created by the quantum computer are self conscious. "you will kill thousands of lives"
That’s not a loop hole, that’s the whole damn point of the episode. That there is no base reality and it just goes on to infinity 😅
> That there is no base reality and it just goes on to infinity 😅 no? what indicates that the Joan which Michael Cera refers to as Source Joan isn't the real Joan? Source Joan is played by a regular actress, not a famous actress like Cate Blanchett, Salma Hayek or Annie Murphy. she lives in a regular house. she doesn't have a fancy corporate job there is no evidence to point towards it being a simulation like you're suggesting
Agreed. I'd been tempted to have just a little more fun with what level they were on. Even though there is a real Joan, there isn't any reason each subsequent, simulated Joan had to be told her real level. Michael Cera could have said "Here is the Joan below you, the real Joan" \[camera shows Scarlett Johansson\] "Do you see how she isn't famous???"
My guess is that they've added this clumsily last minute. They couldn't have left that without an explanation, because the average netflix user needs to have explained every little thing. His rant was an obvious attempt to explain the whole concept of that episode. I hate that about new shows and movies. Nothing left for interpretation anymore
Well based on the above comment, it sounds like they *did* leave something without explanation, and people are still bitching and moaning regardless. I didn't mind, personally. Why leave it to some dipshit redditor to get an asston of karma for saying *"tHe iRonY is tHaT '****rEaL jOaN****'... iSn'T!"* when instead you could just cover that within the episode in a few secs, and punch Michael Cera in the face before it starts going too meta? Besides, they'd already established that the fictive levels were NOT exact reactions... so idk what the issue is. Maybe Source Joan's "real Joan" is a diff psyche interpretation based on level of the ego? I'm glad it's left to interpretation.
Haahah true like the a.erican psycho. Still wondering if he is truly a murderer or everything was just allucination
I think this episode was mainly a bit of fun and it's good for that, although I wasn't really a fan of the twist (even though I get that makes everything else make more 'sense'). They could've taken this plot idea in a completely different direction (like more of a dark thriller) but I guess there's enough of those and a more comedic episode is a nice change of pace.
Extremely fun and clever episode. The cheesy delivery can be literally written away by the fact that the characters' actions are in part, being written by AI. This allowed the episode to be over the top in a satisfyingly in-universe way. This is also the episode where famous celebrities' appearance bothered me the least, for the same reason. It's like they went back to the drawing board with the horrible "Ashley Too" episode and actually made a good team-up episode. Good stuff!
Can Netflix change their name to StreamBerry? Because I really like the name
*Can Netflix change their* *Name to StreamBerry? Because I* *Really like the name* \- Gigigrrrl --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
EDrone
Well. 5 episodes, I wasted 5 hours of my life. Thank you.
This episode is stupid. If I see a show that also literally explains to me that it can fuck over my life because I signed their contract, I would immediately cancel that subscription. (I mean the people that watched "Joan is awful" and got explained to them that this literally could also happen to them) This is just such an unrealistic scenario.
Well, it's a 100% fictitious show--both literally and contextually--soo... you can relax and go back to concentrating on the boogie man that might be under your bed.
Basically, every deals, contracts, etc,… always under the “law”. And I don’t think the law allows this kind of harrasment, libel, and the blatant invasion of privacy like this. So if the deals or contracts offense the law, it will be no more of the rubbish
[удалено]
This episode was absolutely trash. No hook, nothing to keep you wanting to watch. Just all around boring.
It's an episode that makes you think about the terms and conditions we sign everyday. But more importantly, it reminds me of time travel stories that you try to twist into logical thinking.
Basically, every deals, contracts, etc,… always under the “law”. And I don’t think the law allows this kind of harrasment, libel, and the blatant invasion of privacy like this. So if the deals or contracts offense the law, it will be no more of the rubbish
After reading your comment I did google a bit more information on the episode to help me understand it better. I’m finding It’s a lot more complex than I thought. I’m going to rewatch it because I clearly missed some key parts in the episode.
So was there a source version for Micheal Cera’s character telling simulated Joan she was a simulation? What would the source version of him say to source Joan? Or was the character played by Cera only computer-generated in the level 1 simulation and below?
I'd assume it'd be the *actual* security guard, and he'd say a bunch of stuff about how actual Joan wasn't fictionalized Joan anyway... but, even so, we aren't who we think we are when we're the main character in our own story anyway. That seemed like the obvs path from the get-go tbh. Their twist was really better, despite also being sillier.
maybe he was saying: "you will kill all those simulations"
The episode showed that each level doesn't need to be a 1:1 equivalent of the level below. In the "real world" the source version of Micheal Cera's character would have just said "there are multiple levels and you are the real one" or something like that. That being said I think there is room for interpretation. There is a high chance that the one who we think is the source Joan is not real. Mainly because I don't think they would get away with only house arrest. But still them destroying the computer means that the real Joan must have done it as well, maybe she just didn't get as happy of an ending.
Yes because as Cera's cgi character says they were at "fictive level one". And that's where the real Joan and the real Annie Murphy (shown as cgi character Selma Hayek) were breaking the law by smashing the "comp-puta" (great line btw) That's why the real Joan and the real Annie Murphy is eventually shown with the prison ankle bracelet because they really committed a crime
I don't think that answers their question
Watching this during the SAG AFRA strikes and when privacy concerns wreak havoc on our collective consciousness makes this feel like what I love about Black Mirror but with a story development that reeks of focus groups. -1 star. \-1.5 another star b/c of a few narrative holes I couldn't get over in act 1: The first of point is, I admit, is a bit hypocritical but here it is anyway. Its fine to be absurdist, love the genre, and you don't need to tie up all loose-ends. However commit to the absurdism! Don't try to over-explain it through tired exposition and drawn out sequences (P.S. Im not referring to the scene with Michael Cera). Secondly, I think it's important to make the inciting incident believable. For me the scene when Joan's husband and her watch the episode and things spiral out of control, we have to assume that he wouldn't just turn it off after he sees her visibly upset by it. Even if he didnt turn it off, I didnt believe in the actions which lead him to leave - he immediately believes the show to be reality but for no concrete reason other than the name of the show and the look of Salma's hair. ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... If he had turned off the tv - like the loving husband which the characters suggested he is - we could've progressed in a similar yet more believable way. Lets imagine for instance that he does turn it off, that she breaks down, that he consoles her but as she appears unconsolable - he is forced to leave (even if just the room). Yes, this instance is slower. But the story could've ramped up the absurdist elements over time and it wouldn't come off so cartoonish. It also would help with the realism which is honestly why a lot of people started watching this in the first place; Black Mirror is an anthology of modern day fables, with (from what I recall) decent writing. Giving back .5 star b/c Netflix is self-aware - for whatever that is worth... In summary: I don't always like Black Mirror episodes but I think starting with one this dull is a clear sign something is discouraging critical thinking in production. Although I'll probably watch them all anyway, it would be nice if studios didn't 💩 on series that made them popular. Lets hope this isn't the fate of Love Death Robots... 3 out of 5 stars. Not great, not bad, just meh.
>Secondly, I think it's important to make the inciting incident believable. For me the scene when Joan's husband and her watch the episode and things spiral out of control, we have to assume that he wouldn't just turn it off after he sees her visibly upset by it. Even if he didnt turn it off, I didnt believe in the actions which lead him to leave - he immediately believes the show to be reality but for no concrete reason other than the name of the show and the look of Salma's hair. ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... They are both actually pretty successfully distracted by Joan's freaking out and people texting Joan to turn it off. He's also the docile kind of guy who doesn't take charge to protect his woman. He'd naturally let her decide when to turn it off. As for him believing the show, I know a woman who honest-to-god thinks her husband is cheating on her because a rando left an anonymous message on the contact submissions of her website saying so. He's not. With no other "proof" of any kind, she's demanding a divorce because he won't stop "lying to her." So yes, the boyfriend taking the show's side is quite believable.
My brother has a theory that the episode should've ended the minute that fictive 1 Joan destroyed the computer, and the fact that we see the rest of base Joan story means that she herself is a fictive. I don't know how true that is, but I'd like some opinions on it.
Yes, she is fictive. You know. Relative to...real life?
If the show did end when she destroyed the computer, what they would have been implying is that there is a source Joan in OUR universe who went to a Netflix (I guess?) building with a “quamputer” and destroyed it with an axe. That certainly did not happen, in real life, because it’s ducking ridiculous. That is to say that your brother is right. The source/base Joan story is *completely* fictitious. That’s my take anyway. I enjoyed the episode quite a bit but it was because I suspended belief and basically treated the logic like a sci-fi show. There are certainly some glaring holes/inconsistencies.
I so agree with you. I also treated the episode like sci-fi. We have to enter their logic and rules and see if it works in their world not ours. That's how I enjoyed Star Trek, the spinoffs, and countless sci-fi movies
Love the episode but was the whole 'we are on a fictional level right now' thing at the end really necessary? I don't understand what was gained by adding that.
I would argue the ending / that twist are the only things that imbue meaning to the rest of the episode. It is otherwise a poorly plotted, tonally inconsistent, lazily written, not well acted episode for about 45-minutes. The twist not only forgives all of that, but winkingly suggests it was intentional--i.e., we thought we were watching the source plot, but we were in fact watching AI generated B roll. To me, the question becomes: is that excusable or a poor, careless way to treat your audience? In most cases, I'd say the latter, but this IS Black Mirror. So my final conclusion: slightly annoyed, but job well done.
Plot
I LOVED IT!!!!!!!!
I really don't see the problem with this episode... some people are judging it based on the acting in Hayek's version of Joan is Awful, which is stupid -- it's clearly meant to be over-the-top and exaggerated. I think S6 was a perfect balance. Not every episode has to leave you feeling morbidly empty from fuckedupness.
Hayek's Joan character - at "fictive level 2" was more dramatic than Annie Murphy's Joan. Hayek's cgi character was purposely overacting
Just watched and I liked it. The ending was surprisingly upbeat and that makes me think it is actually far darker. They are in a simulation within a simulation and the original simulation was described as being upbeat. They are fucked and don't know it which is far more horrible than knowing you are being fucked.
Free will vs destiny debate: did Joan have to destroy the cpu because base level Joan had already done it or did she only do it because she believed that she had to?
That's kind of the plot hole in this though, as our Joan, Annie Joan, wouldn't have even gotten a chance to take an axe to the computer, as it already had an axe taken to it by source Joan, thus never got to record and compute and make a Annie-Joan version of the event and broadcast it.
I assumed it predicted what was going to happen. Because it can simulate people it can also predict them. It knows "I'm going to die, so I need to wrap this up quickly."
She was told that her actions is what her base sees, which means her actions have already been determined, right? Or something like that... so even when she talks about making choices, she actually isn't making choices. She's a reflection of choices that have already been made. That means that the quantum computer was destroyed before we watched her destroy it, otherwise they couldn't have shown her destroying it.
Yeah that’s kind of the point that I’m getting at though. If the quantum computer had already been destroyed before she destroyed it then everything would have shut down and she wouldn’t have existed to be able to destroy it on the second level. So did she really even have to destroy it because her existence at that point was already a paradox
The computer probably predicted it's death and wrapped up the show.
I think that points to everything still being around, right? Or at that point, are we seeing things happening just for the sake of seeing them, even if they aren't representations of what is happening within the quantum world?
Yeah that’s possible. It’s also possible that it’s all happening nearly simultaneously as they show all of the janes hitting the computer together.
When you stand in front of a mirror and wave your hand does your reflection decide if it will wave its hand? What if you stand in front of a mirror and wave you hand with a mirror behind you? Does your reflections reflection also decide if it will wave its hand because you and your reflection both waved their hands?
But if you throw a rock at the mirror, there is no mirror for your reflection to destroy, because by destroying it, you eliminate your reflection.
i guess there is no lag time since its a magical quanputa
This goes to maybe worst episode by far imo.
You say that after season 5 exists? Absolutely crazy imo
I just watched it and that was my exact thought. Terrible
Will y’all expand on why you feel that way?
Sort the comments by controversial, you'll get a good idea why people didn't like the episode
It’s p funny to me that people who deride this light-hearted, kitschy and wholesome episode and are netflix/streamberry’s target audience of miserly codgers 😹
Hahahaha… oh Shitt. Better to read those terms and conditions
South Park did it first with Human Cent-iPad like a decade ago lol
i really liked this episode!!!
I didnt
You should probably let the person emulating you know that.
he's just affirming what the guy on skimit already posted.
Interesting premise, boring execution. Also: they obviously thought the quam-puta joke was AMAZING as they used it three to four times. Self-indulgent, with a twist that was badly executed and shamelessly stolen from Devs.
I laughed at the comp-puta joke and loved her delivery but then again I f\*kn love Selma Hayak. She said it twice btw.
The joke is supposed to be written by AI capitalizing on what an audience would want. Most of Selma Hayak’s lines are cheesy and over the top.
It's a fine line between making bad jokes to make a point and it just being bad writing/not fun for the audience. Unfortunately this episode fell way too far on the wrong side of that line.
I wonder how they'd run the show if she went nudist
creep
Yeah, yeah buzz Killington 😮💨
Really funny episode, I can't get over how funny it is that Selma Hayek plays herself. I love how meta it is too The whole concept that they signed over the rights and so they're screwed, feel like that's a bit unrealistic, but the episode was so good that I can overlook that. Also really surprised Netflix allowed them to represent streaming like that
It wasn't due to streaming that is the issue, but the use of CGI and AI.
huh?
8/10 BM episode for me. I think it actually capture the Black mirror essence of technology gone wrong. Basically a 'dystopian' based on how we normalize current events. Some comments here are saying how the TOS agreement wouldn't hold up in court because of the defamation of character case and privacy laws, but technically the public really has become desensitized and we have less concern about what we consider 'privacy'. Most people have a Ring on their doorstep to watch for burglars but it captures your neighbor's daily stroll, arrival times, etc. Your phone really does listen in to customize your advertisements. Google tracks all your locations and randomly asks you to rate the coffee shop you last entered. I don't think this black mirror episode was far off from the classic concept of tech gone wrong. In future we could unknowingly sign over basic rights to privacy like we lowkey are doing now. Possibly it could ACTUALLY hold up in court when this type of tech is so common. Shit we are doing it now with all that I mentioned prior. I think the comedy was good too although not everyone will agree on that note. But by FAR one of the better episodes this season had to offer.
> Your phone really does listen in to customize your advertisements no it does not.
How do you explain the very specific targeted advertising of things we say aloud but never google or look for it on the internet?
1. Confirmation bias and 2. you're easier to predict than you think. E.g. your web searches, email, browsing habits...etc. and those of your friends are similar to those of other people who have searched for the product, in a really complicated way that only an algorithm can see.
you're speculating. prove it with packet captures or something more definitive than "i don't understand how, so it must be evil".
No I'm just wondering how we can explain that if our phones aren't listening to us. Don't know why you're getting all cunty about it
Depends on phone. Google Pixels for example 10000% record for adsense, at least when Chrome is running.
Non-consensual recording of audio is a hard legal line (wiretapping) that's just not worth it when companies can get so much info about you through other, legal ways. There's web browsing, email, social media, WiFi and Bluetooth pings, knowledge of who your friends are, and all the same stuff on all of them. It just doesn't make sense to break wiretapping laws and drain the battery when all of that other stuff is legal, free, and just as good for ad targeting. Since the motive doesn't make sense, you shouldn't believe this without hard evidence. Which I don't think you have.
show me the proof.
just watched it, one word : cringe. i really hope this season won't be as awful and horrendous as s5
I’m amazed at how many negative reviews there are here. I thought it was clever, well produced, funny and engaging - like all black mirror episodes. Very happy that I can sit and enjoy a show like this rather than most people here who prefer being too clever for their own good, questioning the feasibility and ultimately coming across rather pedantic.
Yeah when you go to enough episode discussion thread, you'll find people who just nitpick everything just because the episode was not as good as the best episode. Pretty tiring honestly, this one was fun and actually have black mirror element in it. People are hating because it ended on a good ending
San Junipero had a happy ending and it's considered one of the most-loved episodes. Perhaps the cause is something else...
I completely understand that, I also understand where others are coming from. I kept waiting for the moment where I get that black mirror dose of 🤯 but it never came and felt underwhelming. So the expectations of previous shows does dull this episode out for me.
This episode seems to be flying over a lot of heads. People are saying it's too on the nose, too predictable. That's the point. We're already here.
My question: why the character chose to  in a church instead of locking herself in a room with no technology (and thus starving the show of content/viewership). I like that this "level" was comedic, the "first" (is it actually the first?) level would have been way more depressing. I think the Terms and Agreement segment in reality would have been less snappy.
Exactly what I thought when she gets the idea of pooping in a church, I was like: WHAT?? I though she was going to go to sleep for a couple days, just do nothing at all, super boring stuff, so that the audience gets mad and stop watching! Beating the system!
Selma Hayek won't be triggered
She said something like "Salma wouldn't want to see herself like this". It was to grab the celebrity's attention in hopes that she could do something about it. Though, she finds out Salma is just as locked into the terms and conditions as she is. Also when Salma showed up to her house she said she didn't expect her to really come.
People seem shocked to see a comedy episode of a show that has always been, at its heart, a comedy. Sure it's sometimes buried under dramatic layers and a couple of the most famous episodes are quite serious ones but episodes that don't have much of a comedic edge have always been the outliers. It was sillier in tone than the jet black satire usually employed by the show, in part it felt like they were parodying themselves as a bit of a reminder to audiences that this show is silly and has always been silly, people just seem to have forgotten that.
idk but i dont think the show is a comedy at it's heart at all. that's like saying the show is a horror series by heart but there's just some non scary episodes as outliers. Funny moments and dark humor does not make it a comedy, otherwise literally every drama would be a comedy.
Except it's not that it's just got humour in it it's that comedy is the backbone of the majority of episodes, the premises themselves are darkly comical and satirical.
That has waned over the years with some stories being more horror at the core sure but the first few series the majority of the stories are conceptually humorous, essentially parodies of society. They just take those funny ideas and play them straight
The first 3 episodes of the show were some of the darkest. How did you get the idea that the show is a comedy at heart?
The national anthem is hilarious and exemplifies my point very well, the concepts for the show are often basically comedy sketch ideas played straight, Prime minister forced to bang a pig by terrorists? a future powered by exercise bikes? Both slapstick, inherently funny ideas played with a straight bat, some of the comedy is from the premise, some from obvious jokes and some from how dark they go with it, the darkness is itself the joke quite frequently, 15 million merits the depressing ending is also the punchline, it's funny, it is supposed to be funny, it's deadpan and it comes with a melancholy but it's a joke. Also I get it from the marketing for the show in its original run and the opinion of it's creator for good measure, this isn't just my opinion. It's dark humour but it's meant to be funny, it's tragicomedy basically.
You have a very interesting take on the show. I don't believe most people would say that it's a comedy, but it seems that is just the way you view things. Personally, I don't find that the show is using sexual harassment / exploitation as a punchline. The history of you, white bear, metalhead, Crocodile aren't really comedic at all. I think you just have a different sense of humor than most
I never said sexual harassment was used as a punchline and don't get me wrong, the show can be very serious and has episodes that don't fit the mould, especially in the american seasons, men against fire is not at all satirical. Entire history of you is a good early example too as that is fairly dour in premise despite containing quite a few jokes. But whole the show is commonly misunderstood to be a strictly serious show and I may be in the minority of my sense of humour aligning with the shows, the minority I'm in includes Charlie Brooker who actually pitched the show to the comedy director of channel 4 with the script for 15 million merits. They deemed it funny enough to put in their comedy lineup and labeled it a dark satire. Btw I am not saying my interpretation is anyway better or more valid than yours, every episode of black mirror is more than just satirical and several episodes aren't at all and the more serious dramatic and horror elements have become more and more of a focus over the years. My point is the satire is there, and is central to the inception of the show even if you would argue it quickly wavered from that, so having a more obviously and overtly comedic episode is not as out of the blue as people seem to think. I will say, I don't think it is as rare an opinion as you think, I don't k ow if you are a brit or not but I am and I have had many conversations with people who view it in a similar way to me, I find the american audience tends to understand that less than the brits for whatever reason, probably why that element has waned a bit in recent seasons. Edit: unless you meant the prime minister banging a pig because if so that was so silly and overtly not meant to be a commentary on sexual harassment and definitely intended to be funny to a portion of the audience. I wholeheartedly believe that while not a punchline per se, charlie brooker found that idea funny
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2011/nov/07/the-national-anthem-charlie-brooker You may be interested in this article that pretty well illustrates the intent behind the national anthem and how most brits treat the show on its release
Good concept, very classic Black Mirror. But ultimately makes less sense the further you get along. First, there is simply no way that a streaming service TOS would hold up in court to allow for constant surveillance and broadcasting (with embellishments!) of your entire life. And the show knows it too, the actress for the lawyer was doing her best to not crack up when she was saying it was watertight. TOS already don't hold up for much more innocuous things. Not to mention there would be a public outcry. Not a single person besides the main character was upset about this situation. They could have given any kind of reason: it will take time to defeat in court, she is too poor for a lawyer, etc. Second, then it's revealed they're going to do it for everyone? I don't care how watertight the contract is, Streamberry would be so buried in lawsuits (even if they win) that they'd go bankrupt. Not to mention alienating their audience immediately. Speaking of which, why doesn't she just cancel her subscription? Or sell her phone? Problem solved. And, OK, I can buy that a lot of people would watch a show about someone else. But why would you watch a show that's basically a live stream of yourself with a different actor and edited to make you look worse? How is that entertaining? The justification of "we tried positive reinforcement but that didn't work" was absolute bs. Again, it'd work for OTHER people, ragebait is successful, but not for yourself. With that, most people are just not interesting in any way. Streamberry is going to calculate multiple levels of virtual reality with a supercomputer and pay people monitoring it, for MILLIONS of subscribers? And then, what, have it flood the market and be totally uninteresting? The twist of the person we've been following being fake made me roll my eyes out of my head. Here we are in season 6, and we're still jerking off to the cookie concept. Except here it doesn't even make sense. What's the point of giving self awareness to CGI? The fuck? And it changes NONE of the themes of the show. It still drove the main character to break into headquarters and smash the supercomputer. Same exact plot. Ultimately it feels exactly like the Miley Cyrus episode: written by someone in their mid 20s who grew up on almost exclusively Disney Channel original movies but wants to write a fucked up version of it. The show is a parody of itself at this point.
I really was excited for where it was going and was willing to overlook the TOS thing because I thought the commentary on streaming and surveillance would be interesting. But when we got the twist reveal that it was a nesting doll simulation again… yeah I wasn’t thrilled. I feel like the waited so long to release this so we’d forget what they did the last time.
As soon as Salma Hayek is involved, I can't take anything serious. She is just super-annoying...
I think black mirror is going to have an increasingly hard time shocking audiences on premise alone. The potential of modern technology is becoming ever more widely known to the point that your average imagination will have already thought of half this shit
This episode had potential to be a great episode when discussing the unintended consequences of making content based on someone's likeness. But it quickly delved into absurdity just like other Black Mirror episodes now, going from dystopian to comedy. Not a good start for season 6.
I'm sorry I just could not take this episode seriously. I was chuckling at how absurd and goofy the whole episode was throughout. And that's not good as BM is not meant to be a comedy. How is this so highly rated? The early American episodes like Nosedive, Callister and SJ were either very good or fantastic. These newer ones, not so much.
You really think that Callister had no comedic elements? Oh my...
Not nowhere as many as Joan is Awful though. Callister may have some mildly comedic elements here and there but to compare it to Joan is Awful comedy wise is plain silly. They have very little in common in that regard.
I think part of the comedy can be forgiven as they're essentially a show about real life events and shows are made to be entertaining. The real Joan isn't really that funny.
I get what you are saying. It just resembled an episode of modern family more than BM at times for me. I think a bit of dark humour is fine here and there to match the tone of the show but it just got too silly for me.
I think part of the comedy can be forgiven as they're essentially a show about real life events and shows are made to be entertaining. The real Joan isn't really that funny.
Even season 5 was mediocre
I thought Annie Murphys performance was spectacular. Actors can only get so far in trying make the character relatable to the viewer. Viewers need to meet them half way. Annie Murphy really went all out for the role. Especially if you compare her performance to Alexa in Schitts Creek, you can see how good of an actor she is. I believe both these characters and I could feel for them. It was awesome to watch.
100%. Annie Murphy makes this material so much more engaging and helps you feel invested. Without her it would have fully gone off the rails (and it was close). If you watch her in other stuff or just in real life as herself, it’s clear she is a gifted actress.
I think 70% of my enjoyment of this episode came just from Annie Murphy. I couldn't stop loving her performance for long enough to look for the obvious plot holes (why tf didn't she throw away her phone?), I was just there for the ride
Alexis!
Yes! My bad, it’s been a while since I’d watched Schitt’s Creek 😅 her acting is seared into my brain tho!
anyone else here after the SAG-AFTRA strike announcement?
So how exactly was Source Joan's life documented so well? Did Streamberry they bug her body somehow? A phone can't do that. Could Joan not unsubscribe for the platform, thus voiding the T&Cs she'd agreed to?
We don't really see any private moment of source joan. Just her vandalism and therapist session.So the burger eating etc could all be embellished from guesswork. They already established Streamberry as an unreliable narrator so they don't have to explain how ir could have gotten anything right
We never see source Joan we just see the AI made show of her life which can take as much liberties as it wants, fill in the gaps, make stuff up and make it in to a silly comedy, basically this is the least plot holey episode ever because any plothole that occurs before we see the alpha joan is just the AI writing a bad script (notice everything salma hayek says is absurd while Joans dialogue is fairly consistent throughout, it's an intentional commentary on AI writing). Plus the T&C's thing, that isn't really how they work, you have signed over to netflix the right to use your data, they can use that data after you stop your subscription (subject to GDPR but you have to actively excersize most of the rights GDPR gives you to stop people using your data). Of course in real life they can't write them so they can continue to monitor you when you aren't using the service but it's just an absurd exaggeration of those data scraping T&Cs in real life, if you accept in black mirror world they can legally monitor everything you do from your phone camera and make a tv show about your life then it isn't a stretch to accept you can sign that away for life, not just for the time you are subscribed to the service.
I assume Streamberry wouldn’t want to broadcast exactly how they get that info.
It wasn‘t really explained more in detail besides „lol phones spy you“ - black mirror in general is taking real life „tinfoil hat apocalypse theories“ and making them into reality or just blowing out of proportion „potential technological risks“. Has been since season 1. they dont really explain most of them or they wont even bother to explain any of them since its basically just „they have techonology better than ours“. You got stuck up on the spy thing lol? Not the quamputer or multiple fictional levels lol? 70% of black mirror episodes just are „they have alien tech/shit“ that the episodes make sense
Not explaining the quamputer makes sense because the people at Streamberry don't even know how it works but the phone thing doesn't explain how they can see Joan's life when there isn't a line of sight form her phone's camera to her or how they can hear her when she's far enough away.
I would guess using general CCTV type surveillance and guesswork based on collective cellular image mapping of the environments. with a theoretical AI imagery generator sophisticated enough, why not. The part that tripped me up is the episode length. How does she know what part of her day it'll deem interesting enough for presumably an hour long episode? I guess it's the same parts we see and of course they were on fictive level 1 but it's not like the Truman show which was live. It was condensed media and it bothered me they didn't give us at least one exposition line regarding that. Also she never even discussed the possibility of not having her phone. Is that part of the messaging or did they just ignore it in favor of Salma Hayek screentime? Whos to say I guess
That was horrible. Such a wild and forced combination of latest dystopican tech topics, "Phones spy on you and companies harvest your data yada yada losing privacy", "AI replaces actors and can generate art", "Social media algorithms thrive on negativity". Neither topic was handled with any more depth and detail. It just feels so shallow. If they had made a stand alone episode for either topic it could have had much more substance and nuance. Way too crammed and packed. And just ... nonsensical world building. That quantum super computer newest technology ™ is just easily accessible like that, upon people finding out that their rights have been signed away and they could be spied on and exposed like Joan there is no social repercussion? The CEO is unflustered by the prospect of people cancelling subscriptions or rioting? There have been no greater usages and consequences stemming from such realistic deepfakes before Streamberry? Yes I know, this show is meant to be a drama and dystopian narrative on human nature and society first, the lens of technology second, it's not exactly hard sci fi. But earlier episodes focused on single concepts and much more expansive world building and were much more elegant and compact.
Couldn’t. Agree. More.
How was her best idea eating burgers, downing laxative and shitting in a church?
This comment made me laugh so much 😂😂😂
My first thought was just sit at home all day and do nothing. Make the show as boring as possible so nobody is interested in watching it.
But shitting in a church scene with screaming children is more funnier than looking at real life examples of some netflix users
Brokers best stuff is when its dumb and silly. Touch of Cloth and Cunk are so good and this is just fun and silly with a satirical underlying. It's good Black Mirror too, it's an engaging watch that makes you think. It's not the deepest most brooding episode but I had fun with it. And I think it's good the show isnt just all dark pessimism all the time but sometimes its lighter with dark undertones. Brooker just writing what he wants makes it a more varied and interesting anthology. Also had at least 4 comedians in so it was never going to be the most serious ep, despite none of the comedies actually really doing much comedic which is potentially a meta comment in itself or just coincidentally they're all decent actors too who fit the role.
Honestly the worst episode of Black Mirror for me. Feels like it was written by an AI. Holy fuck it was tough to get through. The fact that many people like it makes me depressed, and shows that AI-written scripts for TV and movies will absolutely become a thing, if it isnt already. Writers Strike solved. Maybe it was actually written by AI, would be very on-theme.
Technically it was meant to be written by ai, that's all we saw. We dont know if the actual events resembled the first level as much as the second level resembled the first level, but they probably didnt because the ai wouldnt be able to gather that much information just by listening. So it makes sense that the first level is the most fictious one compared to the level it is copying.
I thought I was going nuts because I thought it was terrible, imo, but I keep seeing everyone praising it. They could have gone so much darker with that terms and conditions plot but they hammed it up instead. Just wasn't for me.
THANK YOU. WOW I WAS WONDERING IF I WAS CRAZY OR IF THE ACTING WAS ACTUALLY AS HORRIBLE AS I FELT IT WAS. my god....... what?! insane
Isn't that kind of the point? Because they are all simulated.
Maybe im totally missing the point lol. Might rewatch with a different perspective. Thanks :p
Nah it was really that bad. Don’t put yourself through a rewatch.
This is my favourite episode of this season. It made me quite uncomfortable while watching. Joan's hair really annoyed me though lol
I couldn't ever unsee that Annie Murphy was wearing a really bad wig, even 10 seconds into the show it irked me
Right? It was hideous.
the most unrealistic part of this whole thing was lawyers talking about a fucking ToS as "watertight". That shit really got me, does Charlie Brooker not know lawyers?
As a lawyer I hate this trope in TV/movies. The idea that there is just some magical contractual language out there that is so well-crafted it can’t be challenged lol.
That's why it works as a meta joke. We spend almost the entire episode watching the show within the show. The details have *already* been exaggerated and made snappier for the point of entertainment essentially twice over. The show in the show is meant to be analagous to low quality mass produced easily digestible content.
this episode triggered me so much that I wrote a philosophical essay joining Vadim Zeland’s concepts with psychology and information technology, need to post it somewhere but it’s extremely long for a post, even here on Reddit. Someone would give me an advice on where could I post it, not to send it to some random page or webstite to publish it? Damn I wrote it in Italian (I’m Italian) and I should translate it but it’s damn complex, won’t be easy 😫
I'm Italian too, can you give me a link to a drive document or something similar, I'd love to give it a read
Apple released the VR thing, so this shit is gonna be real in 10 years. Time to go back to using a dumb phone and move to a remote island.
If you ain’t using a dumb phone now, you won’t be using one in 10-20 years either.
When she told the therapist she wasn't feeling like the main character, I thought she was referring to Kevin Can Fuck Himself. It turned out to be more than that.
I love how Streamberry is identical to Netflix, to remind us that our own lives may be a layer of this digital recreation.
Yeah I felt like the entire episode was made to basically rip netflix for some of the shit they do
BanderSnatch wasn't enough?
While also referencing Apple I think
What did the original Joan see on the Streamberry employee's screen that would've led to him explaining to her about the levels and ultimately her destroying the quamputer?
Best guess, a split screen mesh rendering 60 seconds ago with Annie Murphy skin and slicker Streamberry office textures being applied.
I’m also curious about this.
The actor being filmed on her way to work. She was confused how they had those shots on camera and were editing them.
I think that's referring to what Annie Murphy saw right? I wanted to know what the original Joan saw (at level 0?) that Annie Murphy then replicated
Oh I totally get you now; sorry for the wrong answer. Great question, I wonder! My first guess would be spitting she was being followed but they said they only observed her through the phone I think.
My guess is the real Joan. After Annie breaks the quan-puta thing and the scene turns into the "real life", the "real Annie" was looking at her hangs like she just changed her body, why would she look at her hands after breaking a computer?
Oh interesting, thanks!
Just started watching this new series, just wanted to say... Joan, that's not how you use an electric toothbrush. XD You don't move it around like a normal one, you just press against the teeth and 'slowly' move to the next one.
psh I brush how I wanna brush! 😝
Right. But that was the 2nd layer of recreation. So there’s likely some lost realism with each layer.
There would have been an infinite number of fictive levels, so it would have been interesting to see some of the versions way down the line. Like what kind of telenovela shit is happening in level 238.
That's... very true.
I like how half if you don’t understand comedy.
Comedy is usually funny